stop getting in the way of patient recovery and pay attention. every single one of you is on our list. for those who won't rest until the world is healthier, neither will we. optum. how well gets done. this sunday, president trump then and now. then, on nato. this sunday, president trump then and now. and now? >> iaid it obsolete. it's no longer obsolete. >> then on ssyria. >> if we did nothing, absolutely nothing, we would be in great shape. >> and now? >> tonight i ordered a targeted military strike on the airfield in syria. >> then on china. >> i will direct my secretary of the treasury to label china a currency manipulator. >> and now, the president says they're not currency

manipulators. do she's shifts represent a change in mood or a change in strategy? i'll talk to two leaders in the senate armed services committee, republican john mccain and democrat jack reed. plus, how the trump administration plans to get tougher on illegal immigration. >> it is fair to say that the definition of criminal is not changed, but where on the spectrum of criminality we operate has changed. >> hoemeland security secretary john is with us. on this easter sunday, we bring together three religious leaders and ask, can we really separate religion and politics? joining me for inside an analysis are andrea mitchell, nbc news, mark leeb vich of the "new york times," former republican senator john sununu and heather jackson. welcome to sunday.

it's "meethepress." kour >> announcer: the longest running show in history, it's "meet the press." this is chuck todd. >> good morning and happy easter to those of you celebrating. we have a lot of politics, but first the tension in north korea. north korea launched a missile from sinpo, but the missile exploded just after its launch. this after vice president mike pence landed in south korea for talks on how to counter north korea's growing inhibitions and he spoke at a breakfast there this morning. i'm joined by security analyst juan denarte, having worked under president bush. they may be sabotaged from the

united states. what do you say? >> we don't know yet. it could be sabotage, it could be poor engineering or just bad luck. it's the nature of these missile programs. but it's clear u.s. policy has tried to do everything, chuck, to slow or even stop the development of the missile and nuclear programs, whether it's the use of sanctions, sabotage or use of diplomacy. >> and we know this was successfully done with iran's nuclear program, so it would be easy to assume they would try it. >> there is a playbook here. the u.s. has it. they can use sanctions and oer gs to trto affect their behavior. >> before it was a test by north korea, a parade, very elaborate. it seems to be a concern for those who follow the regime that he has acquired some new missile technology. how real is it? >> the regem is clearly trying to demonstrate its abilities, its intent to build those missile abilities, and what you

saw were new models of intercontinental ballistic missiles. this is a regime who has shown its intent to find a nuclear capability on a missile that can strike the united states. that was part of the show in pat raid through pyongyang. >> it's a topic we'll actually keep discussing in a few moments. meanwhile, call them flip-flops, call them reversal of policies. it can be difficult to know what to make of the president and his recent turnaround these days. business-friendly rules on the environment and his choice of conservative neil gorsuch on the supreme court. on a host of other issues, the president has either reversed or modified his position from the campaign. trying to grasp what's behind the shifts requires some old style criminology. is the new president being educated in office? is he being swayed less in the office by people like steve

bannon and more by jared kushner or jerry cohen, or is he simply not hearing from the people who used to swoon over his rhetoric? whatever the reason, people across the political aspect are asking is, what does it all mean? >> i used to consider myself of being a very flexible person. i didn't have to have one specific way, and if the world changes, i go the same way. >> reporter: donald trump is wrapping up a head-spinning week on policy reverse always. >> nato is obsolete. it is obsolete. some of the smartest people have said what trump said is genius. it's obsolete. >> reporter: and now -- >> i said it was obsolete. it's no longer obsolete. >> reporter: in syria after promising he would stay out -- >> if we did nothing, if we did absolutely nothing, we would be in great shape. >> reporter: last week, mr.

trump intervened. >> tonight i ordered a targeted military strike. >> reporter: on economic policy, he promised to punish china. >> i'm going to instruct my treasury secretary to label china a currency manipulator, the greatest in the world. >> reporter: now he tells the wall street journal they're not currency manipulators. >> president xi wants to do the right thing. we had a very good bonding. >> reporter: the white house has struggled to explain the president's flip-flops. >> it's those entities or individuals in some cases or issues evolving toward the president's position. >> reporter: others attribute mr. trump's evolution to on-the-job training. >> i think mr.rump is learning the job, and some of the things that were said during the campaign, i think he now knows are simply not the way things ought to be. >> reporter: shaping these reverse always, a growing reliance on son-in-law jared kushner and the director of his

national economic counsel, former goldman sachs president gary kohn. and a diminishing role for steve bannon. in fact, this week mr. trump dressed down bannon, calling him, just a guy who works for me. many trump voters, though, are forgiving. at least for now. >> i think he does say things differently as all of us would if we had the responsibility. we just see the tip of the iceberg. >> reporter: but facing a unified democratic position with an uncomplicated message, not trump. republicans on defense ahead of 2018 are struggling to define what it even means to be a trump republican when mr. trump's views keep changing. >> i'm my own man. i'm not going to be told to do by one president or another how to represent the state of arizona. >> ask joinind joining me now i chairman of the senate armed services committee, john mccain.

welcome back. >> thanks for having me. >> president trump just tweeted this morning, why would i call china a currency manipulator when they were trying to work with us on the north korea problem? why should china as a currency manipulator have anything to do with north korea? it shouldn't have anything to do with north korea. >> it may be part of the overall relationship, but china is the key. china is the key. they can stop this if they want to because of their control over the north korean economy. by the way, i will point out, and i know this will come up later on, but there are artillery on the border between north and south korea that can reach seoul. we can't take them all out before -- this is a very -- this may be the first test of this presidency. but china can shut them down, and we should be -- whether they're currency manipulators or not, we should expect them to act to preventhat could be a

cataclysmic ev the north koreans keep making progress. they had a failure yesterday. i'm not sure why. >> do you buy the sabotage thing? do you think our program is good enough to do things like that? >> i don't think so, but i wouldn't rule it out. but at the same time, they have made steady progress. while we have made agreement after agreement after agreement, chuck. how many times on this show have we said, we made a comprehensive agreement with north korea. i'm not blaming trump for this, i'm blaming republican and democratic presidents over the last 20 years while they've continued to make progress. >> is the care approach with china worth doing? is using our trade practices or these conversations about currency worth having these debates in order to influence them in north korea? >> to prevent north korea from having a missile with a nuclear weapon that could strike the united states, and we would have to rely on our ability to intercept, and by the way, i'm told we do have that ability, is still awfully risky business.

so this is really very serious. this guy in north korea is not rational. his father and grandfather were much more rational than he is. >> when you're dealing with an irrational actor, american presidents will always say with north korea the military option is on the table. but when you're dealing with irrational actors that you just described, does that make military action something you don't want to deal with because you don't know how he'll respond? >> i don't think you ever want to do this because of this proximity of north korean artillery to seoul, a city of half a million people. at the same time, to risk a situation where they have that ability and we rely on our ability to intercept, this could be the first test, real test,f thtrump presidency. and by the way, i believe that he'll getery good advice from mattis and from mcmaster. >> let me move on to the bigger picture here in what we've learned about president trump

and his foreign policy. robert robb wrote this this week. writing about the syria decision. it was a completely ad hoc decision. it felt like the right thing to do so trump did it. and most americans seem to agree that it was the right thing to do. my guess is that's the way for foreign policy is going to be conducted under trump, a series of ad hoc decisions based on what seems right or doable at the time. at the end of the day, to borrow from winston churchill there will be ways to pay. >> i think he was deeply moved by pictures of those children. who wasn't? who wasn't deeply moved by that? but i do believe -- and i support what he did, and i support the bunker buster bomb, but we've got to develop a strategy. there is still not an overall strategy that he can come to

congress and his advisers and say, okay, this is how we're going to handle syria. here's how we're going to handle post-mosul iraq. we've got to have a strategy, and i'll give them some more time, but so far that strategy is not apparent. >> it does seem as though on the issue of whether assad should go, he sort of stops short of regime change. he said, look, he obviously isn't probably going to be a part of the solution, but he stopped srt of that. y? >> because i don't think he's absolutely sure what h needs to do, but i would point out, of those 400,000 men, women and children who have been slaughtered, they weren't slaughtered by isis, they were slaughtered by bashar assad. the russians once used precision weapons to hit hospitals in aleppo. the war crimes are horrendous here, and to just say we're only after isis, in my view, rather than regime change is something that we have to rethink. >> let's talk about the overall changes. you said he's growing in office.

>> yes. >> there are some that will say, no, the washington establishment sucked him in. >> i hope so. >> okay. >> no, on national security, i do believe he has assembled a strong team, and i think very appropriately, he's listening to them. and that's the area, of course, where i'm concerned. >> i want to go quickly to the washington consensus. a lot of people don't think the washington consensus has worked in the administration over the past 20 years. >> you're right t hasn, it hasn. but it wasn't because of the people around him now. for eight years we basically did nothing in response to some of the most horrendous war crimes in history. at least he did something. now i hope that there will be a strategy to follow that up. and america is about moral superiority and our willingness not to fight every fight but at least respond to horrendous acts of inhumanity and war crimes.

also syria will continue to have the spread of al qaeda if we don't care of bashar assad. >> senator john mccain, unfortunately i have to leave it there. pleasure to have you. you've been on here a few times, i've heard. >> time flies when you're having fun. the u.s. dropped the so-called mother of all bombs on isis and bashar assad. president trump was asked if he personally authorized that action. here's what he said. >> did you authorize this, sir? >> everybody knows cannotly what happened. i authorize my military. we have the greatest military in the world and they did a great job, as usual. we've given them total authorization. >> joining me is the ranking member of the armed services committee, he and senator mccain do a lot of work together. mr. reed, welcome back to the show. >> thank you.

>> let me start with north korea and get to the issue of the unpredictability aspect of president trump. is there, on this specific issue when it comes to north korea, is there an argument that's an asset and not a liability? >> i don't think long term it's an asset. i think you have to have a very deliberate plan. i think you have a strategy. i think as senator mccain indicated, china is key to that strategy. they have the economic leverage. they're the biggest trader with north korea. in fact, their trades went up last year. they have, as we found out, provided some electronics to these missiles. so if china can be brought to the point where they're putting pressure constantly on north korea, there is an opportunity, i think, tory to freeze their systems and then roll them back. but that has to be a long-term, deliberate, day by day strategy. and one of the things about the president, he's getting good military advice from general mattis and general mcmaster, but he needs a much stronger state department. >> i want to actually ask about

this -- you talk about his relationship with general mattis who is somebody you supported, his confirmation. in the opening bite there in your introduction, i noted about how the president didn't sign off himself personally on the dropping of the so-called mother of all bombs. he has given more leeway to his military leaders to make these decisions. are you comfortable with that? >> well, these authorities have been given, over the last several years, they've increased. in fact, when general nicholson went before the committee a few weeks ago, he indicated he was satisfied with the authority he had. and, in fact, i assume that this was not a new authority, this was something that he was authorized deploying a particular weapon system. >> there was one comment from an anonymous official who said, look, in the previous administration, we wouldn't have dropped this without at least alerting the white house. in this one, we don't have to alert the white house, that that is essentially the change. are you comfortable with that change? >> i think there has to be communication with the white

house and their field commanders on a constant basis. that generally through the secuty council. i think in this case, though, the general thought this weapon was appropriate and there were no reports of casualties. so the operation, i think he deemed was appropriate. he might have informed someone, but i don't think he went out of the way to do it. >> obviously, anything we do in afghanistan is covered by a war authorization. that was passed a long time ago. there is still some question whether anything we do in syria falls under that or not. do you believe it does or doesn't? >> i think with the pursuit of isis in syria that is covered by the amf. it's an extension of the amf, but we've been extending that for many, many years now. going after isis, i think within the province of the amf. other actions have to be much more -- >> going after assad would not fall under the amf? >> no, i don't think so. i think going after assad in

terms of the deliberate, concentrated effort to conduct military operations would require the authorization of congress. i think the tact that the president took place, i agree with the attack, was done under his prerogative as responding to an incident or horrible incident the right or the ability of the nations to protect populations. but i think anything further should be considered by the congress. >> is there a circumstance where you would support sending more troops to syria? >> one of the things the president will have to do is lay out a plan, a clear plan. the ad hoc nature of what he does, the kind o flip-flops which we've seen dramatically suggest incoherent policy. i think temperamentally as well as spiritually, he's trying to come to grips with these things. he doesn't seem to be someone that follows through with the deliberate planning process you need. he has to be able to come not

just to congress but to the american people and explain in detail what he's doing. >> are you comfortable with any of the flip-flops? all of them this week were sort of moves from outside the washington consensus to inside the washington consensus: nato, how to deal with china, things like that. does that at all comfort you? >> i think it's recognizing, in many cases, the obvious, what he has to do. i think with respect to china, you know, their key role in north korea potentially can't be sort of jeopardized by going after them as currency manipulators. in fact, there is some evidence by economists that they're not doing that recently. at one time they were. but i think these things would be more comforting if they were not sort of off the cuff, unexplained or glibly announced but, rather, the conscious deliberation and conscious intervention by the president. i think also, too, one of the

things we have to recognize is a growing disenchantment with russia, but that also has to be centered on the serious election 2016 and what they did here. because they are still operating today in europe using those same information techniques, et cetera, and we have elections coming up. we cannot allow the russian to be part of our electoral process, so that's something he has to focus on. >> right now he has to accept that it happened. >> exactly, and that's one of those things where that would be a great improvement in his situation. accept it happened and then move very aggressively for the good of the country to see what happened in '16 so we're prepared and protected '18 and '20 and beyond. >> senator jack reed, i'm going to leave it there. thanks for sharing your views. when we come back, the trump administration gets tough policy on illegal immigration. >> if you're here illegally, you should leave or be did he poepo

put through the system. >> but john kelly goes on to say it's a very complicated situation and no easy solution. john kelly joins me next. dentures are very different to real teeth. they're about 10 times softer than and may have surface pores where bacteria can multiply. polident kills 99.99% of odor causing bacteria and helps dissolve stains. that's why i recommend polident. cleaner, fresher, brighter every day. a 401(k) is the most sound way to go. let's talk asset allocation. -sure. you seem knowledgeable, professional. i'm actually a deejay. -[ laughing ] no way! -that really is you? if they're not a cfp pro, you just don't know. cfp. work with the highest standard.

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welcome back. welcome back. one area where president trump clearly has not changed or softened his position is on the issue of immigration. the man tasked with carrying out the president's policies is the new head of homeland security john kelly. while i sat down with secretary kelly this weekend, and i started by asking him if the administration is creating, in effect, a new, large deportation force. >> there are a huge number, as you know, of illegal aliens or undocumented individuals that have to be dealt with in one way or another. i would argue, chuck, that we have to straighten this out, and i place that squarely on the united states congress. it's a hugely complex series of laws, and i get an awful -- i engage the hill quite a bit and get an earful about what i should do and what i shouldn't do, but it all comes down to the

law, doesn't it? we are a nation of laws and i would hope the congress fixes a lot of these problems. >> you say it's in congress, but there are others that say if you just enforce the law in the books. what is the issue? are the laws on the books hard to enforce and they need to be changed? is that what you're saying here? >> well, the laws on the books are pretty straightforward. if you're here illegally, you should leave or you should be deported, put through the system. but there are 11 million people and it's very complicated. there are people who came here as children, there are people who came here illegally many years ago and have married local men and women and had children. it's a very complicated problem. but the law is the law -- but i don't have the unlimited capacity to execute. >> is this the best use of money? is this the resources you need that you need to hire more people to deal with this issue? is that your number one problem? >> i think so. there's two aspects. of course, ice operated more or less in the interior and through

targeted actions of illegal aliens plus. what i mean b that is just becauseou'r in the united states illegally doesn't cessarily get you targeted, it's got to be something else. we're operating more or less at the other end of the spectrum and that is criminals, multiple convictions. >> define a criminal here, because that's where there's been -- it seemed as if in the obama administration there was one definition. there seems to be another definition in this administration. is that fair to say? >> it is fair to say that the definition of criminal has not changed but where on the spectrum of criminality we operate has changed. >> so can you give me an example of somebody that wasn't deported before that you're deporting now. >> for example, multiple duis, even a single dui depending on other aspects would get you into the system. >> this wouldn't have been the case under the previous administration. >> unlikely. you have to remember there is a legal justice system in place, and the law deports people. secretary kelly doesn't, ice

doesn't, it's the united states, you know, criminal justice system or justice system that deports people. >> i want to go back to the 11 million. it seems that the bigger problem you're dealing with is not the border, it's visa overstays. >> that is a big problem. >> is that what you need, you need ice agents to do that? is that what you need the extra resources for? >> all of that. it's a big problem. there is a lot of people out there that need to be taken into custody and deported, according to the law. visa overstays is quite a large number of the illegals that are in the country that are, in fact, visa overstays, and we just completed, i think -- they just completed, ice just completed a targeted operation going after overstays. it's time-consuming. but at the end of the day, they came here with a promise to leave, and we have to track them down if they're still in the country and put them in the proceedings to deport them.

>> would the money for the border wall be better spent on going after visa overstays, and would that actually deal with the problem? >> you really have to secure the border somehow first and foremost. the very, very good news is, for a lot of different reasons, the number of illegal aliens that are moving up from the south has dropped off precipitously. we're down 65, 70% in the last two months. these are the months that we should see a steep incline in illegal movement. it's down, as i say, by almost 70%. >> do you think some of that has been the president's rhetoric and campaign and basically saying, well, he won, and it's going to be tougher to get across the border? do you think that contributes? >> absolutely, and some of the other things we've done on the bord border. general sessions was just down there, the attention being paid to the border. it certainly has injected into

those people and a vast majority of them are people from south america. it's brought confusion into their minds and it's waiting to see exactly what does happen. >> you as head of southcom, your previous job before this, you were testifying on this during the surge of immigration through mexico. you said, hey, i stop at the guatemalan border there, your purview. but you talked about the difficulty -- you were trying to find partners at the time in central america to help you with this, and the u.s. drug consumption, the u.s.rug consumer, you thought, was part of the problem in all of this. explain. >> drug consumption in the united states is the problem. just cocaine alone. when you consider the massive amounts of profit that come out of the united states. the traffickers' biggest problem

is not getting drugs into the united states, the biggest problem is laundering the money. when you have that much profit coming into the united states and that profit is managed by cartels that are beyond violent, and so you go to the latin american countries, mexico, the united states united states, for that matter. you mentioned corruption already. the kind of money they can offer an attorney general in guatemala or a police chief in mexico city, the kind of money they can offer, and if you don't take the money, they're happy to send your youngest child's head to your home if a plastic bag. >> you said, though, the hypocrisy aspect of it, meaning these central american countries. is the idea, for instance, marijuana legalization. does that help your problem or hurt your problem? >> marijuana is not a factor in the drug world. >> this really is a cocaine, and in some cases, the opioid copycats? >> three things. methamphetamine almost all produced in mexico.

heroin virtually all produced in mexico and cocaine that comes up from further south. those threerugs result in the death of, i think last , in 2015, i think, 52,000 people, to include opioids. it's a massive problem. you can't put a price on human misery. the cost to the united states is over $250 billion a year. the solution is not arresting a lot of users. the solution is a comprehensive drug demand reduction program in the united states that involves every man and woman of goodwill. >> and he went on to say that congress needs to be working on this. i also asked secretary kelly about the fight against isis and that mother of all bombs in afghanistan, and you can hear his answer on the entire interview which is posted on our website, meetthepress.com. when be cowe come back, fro china to nato to syria, what are we to make of the president's

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panel is here. john sununu, heather mcgee, andrea mitchell of nbc news and mark leibovich of the "new york times" who does still live in this town. thank you, all. i want to start with the week of donald trump and his evolving positions. john sununu, what do you make of it? >> growing into the job, maybe. on issues like nato, i think everyone knew that we weren't going to pull out of nato. everyone knew and understood that his rhetoric was in one place in the campaign and it was going to be met with a reality, that nato serves a function, has great value, is important to our strategic alliances around the world. a lot of it is just the campaigner coming to the oval office and recognizing what's real and what's doable. look, some of it on the domestic policy issues like xm bank or the currency manipulation is probably going to kick back a little bit on the trump base. because they don't expect that

kind of thing to happen. >> here's how andrew sullivan, here's his take, new york magazine. what on earth is the point of trying to understand him when there is nothing to understand? he has no policy in the next 24 hours, no consistency at all, just whatever makes him feel good about himself that second. also whatever bizarre thought he can cook up in his addled head. obviously a harsher response. andrea? >> i think he likes to win, and he sees that he wins when he listens to jared kushner, when he listens importantly to mattis, to mcmaster. when he's listening to these advisers and not steve bannon and now that mike flynn is gone, that is the biggest change. there is a reality check here, and he's seeing that some things work. now, it's not complete, it doesn't always work. he still tweets after angela merkel leaves and insults germany. so it was not just the campaign,

senator. it was also the transition and the early weeks of the presidency. but i think the health care failure really influenced his decision to turn to some wiser heads. >> well, there's been a lot of talk about how bannon is out and ivanka and jared are up, but there hasn't been a lot of coverage of some things that happened this week behind closed doors, like ivanka, who is supposed to be for women, didn't stop him from signing a bill that would put state level women's health clinics in the crosshairs, recognizing -- >> i'm curious, what do you make of their speculation that that is a compromise? sign that bill but don't fight the planned parenthood issue in the budget? is that a, quote, unquote, compromise? >> they would not feel any kind of relief. it's a state where the vulnerable working class women, it's their only form of health care. they're the ones that will be in the crosshairs. we also saw him sign something that stopped retirement security accounts. working class middle class

people who work for small businesses that don't have 401(k)s on the job. so it's this that has been most consistent. >> i think you're right. it's this done without a press pool in the oval office, no coverage, and planned parenthood says it's really devastating. >> the question of yes, he loves to win. how do you define winning in an environment where there is really no legislative action going on whatsoever? is winning to donald trump a bunch of good news stories, the poll numbers, that kind of thing? >> yes. >> the contrast we have here is on these national security issues, you've got good leadership in place, they've been given some autonomy. we heard from general kelly, we talked about general mattis, mcmaster. they are obviously the guiding hands between the foreign policy activity that's been pretty widely accepted and well received recently on the

domest -- on the domestic side, he really doesn't have that same quality team in place yet. >> mcmaster, kelly, mattis, that is a win. he's obviously listening to them. >> domestically, there is a story in the "new york times" where there are a number of lobbyists going into the agencies they were just representing, big industries to try to water down rules, it's astounding. and the idea that that is draining the swamp is something that there's going to be accountability for. >> this week will be the climate change on the paris chords. he wants china to help on north korea, and if we embarrass and humiliate china which we dragged kicking and screaming into this climate change agreement -- >> lobbyists have nothing to do with this stuff. this is where he was on the campaign trail. pull away from regulations, pull

away from climate change. this is a case of campaign rhetoric being followed through. it has nothing to do with any lobbyists visiting the white house this week or last week. >> i'm only taking a quick pause. i want to discuss a couple things general kelly said about immigration, actually, when we come back. by the way, there were many protests in many cities yesterday, calling on the president to release his tax returns. president trump noticed. he's tweeted about those tax marches already this morning. just the latest bit of evidence that energy is on the democratic side when it comes to campaigns. will it transpose into votes? we may get an answer this tuesday. the conversation is next. relief in a gentle mist you may not even notice. using unique mistpro technology, new flonase sensimist delivers a gentle mist to help block six key inflammatory substances that cause your symptoms. most allergy pills only block one. and six is greater than one. break through your allergies.

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visit booking.com. booking.yeah. we are back. president trump. notice the tax violation yesterday. he tweeted about this this morning. i did what was an almost impossible thing to do for the republican- -- easily won the

election. now they're bringing up tax returns again? you were part of that rally. what were they about, who paid for them? >> i got to speak to the one in dc here yesterday. honestly my expectations were very low. there's always been these ernest tax day rallies by progressives saying we need more revenue. this was 25,000 people in d.c. alone, 200 rallies across the country, and the message was really quite uniform. it was, show us your taxes, what are you hiding, who are you working for? and then at the same time, we need economic justice and tax fairness. we're sick of billionaires bragging about how little they pay in taxes. >> john, it seems as if you could look at these rallies two different ways. okay, maybe the general public isn't as moved on the tax return issue, but the fact is these rallies can happen very easily on the left tells you the energy is on the left. >> i think there is a little

energy on the left if for no other reason president trump provides a great focal point for them. the coin flips. the big tax rallies used to be conservatives marketing tax day and how long do you have to work until you can actually pay your taxes and it gets later and later every year. >> do you realize republicans this year are okay with the amount of taxes they pay? >> three out of every four americans wants him to release his tax returns. he keeps saying it didn't matter because he lost the popular vote by 3 million votes. but it does matter. people think it's unbelievable that he thinks he's above the law. >> i think substantively it doesn't matter. it doesn't matter for the politic decisions we've been talking about, it doesn't matter in his reelection. it didn't matter in his reelection in 2016. >> it puts a great deal on the russian investigation, too. >> you wouldn't see anything on russia in there.

i don't think you'll see anything more dramatic than what you've seen, which is the guy makes hundreds of millions of dollars, he uses the tax returns to his advantage. >> to whom does he owe these debts is a question that's very, very important. also, who is going to benefit from his vision of tax reform where he gets rid of the estate tax, where he gets rid of a lot of the taxes that are basically going to benefit him, some of the people he has dealings with and his own family? every democrat and republican president since watergate has released their tax returns. why should donald trump be different? >> i'm not saying he shouldn't, i'm saying it doesn't really matter to the substance of these other issues happening. >> we're going to get a test on this tuesday in georgia. here's what's interesting here. of the top 10 congressional districts where the highest populations with a college degree, nine of the ten are held by democrats. you can see them. number 10 is georgia 6, andrea.

this is a seat moving toward them demographically. >> they raised a lot of money, millions of dollars for this district. the problem i think he may encounter. there will be a runoff if he doesn't get to 50%. there are several republican candidates, democratic candidates. also, i think there could be a blowback in this district as there would be in many districts especially in the south busing people in from new york. too much money. i think there could be a reaction from that. >> the is almost acounte counter-complacency going on about all the talk from the left. >> close is not necessarily going to cut it here. thanks to all of you. when we come back, politics on the pulpit. it is easter sunday, after all,

so let's have this conversation. how much should politics and religion mix? we'll hear from three religious leaders on just how separate church and politics should be. ...have you tried the tissue test? the what? ... tissue test! hold this up to your teeth... ...ugh yellow... i don't get it. i use whitening toothpaste. what do you use? crest whitestrips you should try them! whitening toothpaste only works on the surface. but crest whitestrips safely work below the enamel surface ... to whiten 25x better than a leading whitening toothpaste you used the whitestrips i passed the tissue test. oh yeah. would you pass the tissue test? see for yourself with crest whitestrips. they are the way to whiten. our proprietary material automatically adjusts to your weight, shape and temperature. so you sleep deeply, and wake up feeling powerful. tempur-pedic sleep is power. find your exclusive retailer at tempurpedic.com guests can earn a how cafree night when theypring book direct on choicehotels.com

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this easter sunday to discuss how religious leaders deal with politics when conversations are so polarized. t.d. jake senior adviser for the you knowior of reformed judaism. i asked if we should abide by the maxim not to mix politics and religion. >> it's a misnomer because it suggests that religion and politics are individuals when they're ideologies and ideologies are inherent in people. wherever there are people you have the intermixing of relodge -- of the relodge yos -- religiosity of your values and they'll connect whether you want them to or not. >> should we stop fighting it? >> i think they're connected in the sense that religion is an internal kind of thing. that really gets at the heart. and the mind. and politics is the outworking off your values and the things that are inside you. i see them connected actually.

>> sometimes i wonder if we overthought the phrase a little bit, rabbi. >> you can separate two kinds of politics -- partisan politics, electropolitics in one category. but what we normally refer to as politics as you have just heard, really is interwoven with religion. in other words, when we talk about the poor, when we talk about the vulnerable, when we talk about the biblical command to welcome the stranger in our midst and love the stranger as ourselves, to protect god's creation, we are talking about global warming and refugee policy and migrant policy. they're woven together. just as the prophets and jesus of nazareth and the biblical characters all address these issues in their time, so we feel compelled to address it in ours. >> look, bishop jakes, you have not been afraid of politics. you haven't been afraid of politics and rabbi, obviously. but talk about some of your fellow pastors and bishops

and rabbis. >> i think it's a thin line you have to walk. primarily people don't come to church to hear you espouse political views. >> that's what you hear -- stick to your faith, well, faith and politics. >> and in the back tradition we had pastors long before we ever had a president, so our pastors have a different expectation from the congregation to weigh in on issues that affect the people and many times you become the voice of people who are voiceless. if i had to grow into understanding that that platform was also a responsibility amongst my parishioners to represent their issues and concerns without getting nuanced over into the individual behind the politics, you do at let have to confront the issues that affect your congregation. >> pastor, where are you -- >> i'm thinking about the people in our church who want to know how to think biblically. so when they come to church they're wrestling with the issues in the world and they're

not sure because biblical literacy is increasing. so they're looking to the pulpit, and to us, with how to think. not what to think, but what to think. so we grapple with the issues from the biblical perspective. >> and some synagogues are becoming sanctuaries. >> indeed. >> synagogues and churches. that's a big political statement for a synagogue to make and in some -- and some congregants view it as you're taking sides. >> that's the paradox. when we're feeding hungry people in our food programs and sheltering homeless people in our homeless shelter programs and we are welcoming the refugee, the stranger, the tells -- the bible tells us was should street -- create as ourselves in providing sang shirr to them, we are living out our religious ideals. we have pastoral responsibilities to our members. regardless of their politics or ours, we have to not compromise

ourselves in a way that would undercut our ability to do that. but we're also teachers and leaders and the one who exemplifies how to apply our traditional values to the world about us, that's a difficult tight rope to walk. but we have to accomplish both responsibilities. >> you think it actually -- you would be punished more if you ignored politics, bishop? >> i think it has consequences. i don't think that you can walk out of your faith and totally ignore the environment in which your faith is exemplified. and it is -- it's not an issue as to how you take it on, and you have to be willing to be misunderstood or become silent and not be heard at all. >> you heard some of the criticism of evangelicals going wait a minute, how can you set aside the moral outrage over bill clinton from donald trump? how do you explain it? >> wow. that's a hard one. i think the moral underpinnings of our country and of our faith

are challenged when these things happen. when candidate trump talks about those things about women. thas personally offeivto me. but i'm not called to go into thpulpit and express my views about myself. i need to look at that from a wider context of scripture. what does the bible say about how women are treated and how we should honor one another? that's my message. i'm really not going to delve into the political specifics. but bringing that to the wider and even a deeper human issue. why do we do that and where is our actual ways in which we do the same thing. >> do any of you see the rise of secularism as a rejection of faith leaders or a rejection of faiths? what do you attribute the rise of secularism to? >> you know, a lot of times i'm not sure that the rise is as high as the media reports that it is. i think that faith has in many cases retreated back behind private walls and i'm saying a

rejection of organized religion, a pew research suggests that millennials in particular are retreating not that they don't have faith, but they don't express it in the way that their parents have done. the challenge of people of faith is not so much to wrestle against secularism, but to remain relevant in a society that has lost faith in all institutions. and the onus is on us to recreate ourselves without losing sight of our core principles and values. >> pastor, that -- >> yeah, i'm thinking when you're saying that, bishop, is how we have made heaven here. especially ithwest. we don't really need to relate to that theology of heaven and rescue and salvation the same way we always did. because what do we have to be rescued from? you go to africa or the global south. and there's no secularism there because there's no -- there's no development there or there's no personal wealth there.

so they're looking to god for everything that they have and there's such joy in that. it reveals the joy of the human heart. >> you see the rise of secularism almost as a benefit of our success in society? >> yes, yes. i think what it does it layers over the real needs of people's hearts. but what i'm seeing in the church and i'll bow to you guys on this, but when people come into crisis they still come to the church. we are there in the crisis moments of people's lives. we are at the sick bed, at the wedding altar, at the divorce court. we are there in those spaces where people are hurting. when the money can't help it and the secular things we have enveloped ourselves with can't save you. >> well, that was a -- i hope a full conversation for you. t.d. jakes, joann hummel and david saperstein. we had a much longer conversation. you can see the rest of the interview on meet the press.com. that's all we have for today. happy easter sunday. happy passover to those observing. we're back next week. by the way, go wizards and go caps.

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to friends at more banks then ever before. you got next? chase. helping you master what's now and what's next. ♪ no a very good sunday to you. i'm richard lui. welcome to "pulse of america." here are the stories we want to get your pulse on today. vice president pence arrives in south korea just hours after a failed north korean missile launch. will north korea try again maybe with a nuclear test and how might president trump respond? a rally by supporters of president trump ends in chaos in berkeley, calirn