hello. i'm arir melber in new york. welcome to "the point." our special coverage of the trump presidency and stories beyond the headlines. bomb first, ask questions last, how trump is leaning into the military tactics before gathering all the facts on the foreign policy challenges around the world. and just some guy? steve bannon, holding on to his job this weekend but facing a rhetorical demotion as trump diminishes his role. plus the approval ratings sky high for one sector of the public and he may have the

politics of paranoia to thank for that. i'll get behind the partisan teflon. but we begin tonight with those tgh questions facing president trump's foreign policy moves whether his short term tactic of bombing has any long term follow through. the swift bombing of syria draw praise. his use of the massive bomb in afghanistan was cheered. and while there may be a military response to north korea this weekend, there's a potentially unnecessary es calais of the long conflict. it may be don't be a tweet to a debate over the korean peninsula. china should be more helpful which led to that country to have storm clouds gathering. as you may know, his twitter account went quiet after north korea did launch a missile test

which allegedly failed. trump has proven reticent. no white house statement. jim mattis released a statement that said he is aware, but had no further comment and no tweets about north korea though trump has tweeted five times since that last night. the rare quiet moments do stand out. the chinese philosopher said silence shows great strength and one observed said it's the weak who starts riots and the strong move quiet. is trump taking that approach? does the calm after the storm reflect the limits of tough talk? or look, there are other possibilities. maybe this is another one of those fleeting tactics in a foreign policy that seems to only react to other countries' actions without thinking through and planning out an action plan of its own. now we'll talk about the politics of all this in a moment. but first, on the foreign policy questions i want to go to msnbc analyst rich stengel, former

diplomat in the obama administration and gordon chang, author of "nuclear showdown." rick, what do you make of the silence as of 5:02 p.m. eastern? >> i approve of the silence. kim jong un is an immature young leader desperate for attention and one of the things that barack obama didn't pay him any attention. he likes the fact that troops are coming there. he likes the fact that ships are there. silence is actually strategic here and tactical and i think it's smart. >> interesting. i want to put up the currency manipulation tweet which seems like a flip-flop. but this might reflect that donald trump realizing he needs a lot from china. why would i call chai a currency manipulator, when they're working with ounce the north korea problem. see what happens. are you seeing growth from the president? >> i think that's a graceful exit that would only lead to tears for him because china is

not a currey manipulator. that's defined in u.s. w and it doesn't meet the qualifications at this point. you have to rig your currency and do it for the trade benefit and china is rigging the currency but at an afterofficially high level. giving a subsidy to u.s. exporte exporters. they want to prevent the outflow of capital. >> do you agree with him? >> yeah, with the military assets going there, this is a good time to be quiet. we're approaching a dangerous situation. the north koreans know that trump has a low threshold for the use of force. we know that jong un has a low threshold of risk. this is a dangerous situation. >> stay with me. i want to look at the politics. here was bernie sanders today with a warning for trump. >> well, the important point is how we go forward. it is a very complicated and difficult issue. you have a regime which in north

korea is isolated. which has put incredible resources into a nuclear and missile program while millions of its people over the years have starved to death. the key point here is that the united states must not act impulsively and we must not act unilaterally. >> on these political reactions i want to bring in christina grier and kirstin hagglund. i have had you on "the point" before. you have been critical of the president at times. i think it's fair to say. >> just a few times. >> are you willing to join rick stengel who happens to be a former obama administration official and is a this is a welcome kind of reticence from compared to the bluster?y >> right. completely agree. everything though that rick said about kim jong un we can say about donald trump. the difference is that donald trump is 70 and kim jong un is 32, 33 years old. donald trump is trigger happy, immature, he likes attention. we saw him at the joint sessions

when the widow got the largest standing ovation and he needed to point that out. he wants a bump in the ratings because that's all he watches. so a war or some sort of military interaction usually does give presidents a bit of a bump. we know he's well aware of that. the issue is there's a reason why presidents since 1953 have let north korea be. trump interacting with this, with kim jong un and this whole situation makes it an incredibly dangerous arena for the entire world. so the fact that he's actually going to sit down for a moment yet again at mar-a-lago and hopefully get some advice where this isn't just posturing with other european nations or weaker nations. this is someone who is incredibly trigger happy and who might be as unstable if not for more than trump. hopefully the people around him help him recognize him and i think the chinese president was

able to articulate that to him. >> what do you think? >> i think we have to look at the situation in the frame of domestic politics as well because the president often acts in response to what people think of him. what his opinion polls might be and how strong his constituency he feels like supports him. what's so interesting is how -- he loves to win. and he loves to be praised in public. after that syria strike we all saw that he received lots of positive feedback from that. and so i think he knows that when he shows a strong military side that he receives a lot of positive feedback and so he's going to keep doing that. i think the good thing that we can say here is that he has shown that he's listening to the right people and so far as foreign policy is concerned. general mattis as well as hr mcmaster. these are people who are not trigger happy. and have seen the difficult situation in iraq and afghanistan unfold in a way they understood the complexities so at least he's listening to the right people. >> i wonder if you think -- if you think -- here he was in may 2016 saying something that he's all but retracted as president about how to fix all this.

>> this morning's provocation from the north is just the latest reminder of the risks each one of you face every day in the defense of the freedom of the people of south korea and the defense of america in this part of the world. >> now, it's not -- the campaigns change people. donald trump hasn't changed that much. that was actually a video of mike pence. we're going to pull this down and play it but what he basically said you can meet with north korea's leader, china can fix this in one meeting or phone call. something he's not holding today. so i wonder if -- we have it. let's play that. >> i would speak to him, i would have no problem speaking to him. at the same time, i would put a lot of pressure on china because economically we have tremendous power over china. people don't realize that. they are -- they are extracting vast billions of dollars out of our country. billions. and we have tremendous power

over china. china can solve that problem with one meeting or phone call. >> one meeting. he certainly changed his tune. i wonder from the conservative perspective do you view that positively, do conservatives see this as a growth or he keeps changing his mind, what's new you can't stick with that either? >> right. the thing that a lot of conservatives looking at trump going into the election was that he doesn't really have an ideological center so it could be a good thing. once you get is more establishment mainstream republicans in there they can try to help him find his way in a way that is a little bit more predictable and more intelligent on the world stage, so it's hopeful in that respect. it shows he's learning and shows that he understands that being president is a lot more complex than just winning an election. but with the fact that he's not necessarily ideologically stable, comes the fact that he could switch and turn at any time. he's on the right track and i think he's listening to the right people in so was foreign policy is concerned and that

makes me hopeful. >> rick, kirstin may have coined a new term if donald trump is ideologically unstable what you're not always looking for in a political relationship. but how do the democrats deal with this after they have more or less given him the best ten days of domestic politics yet? >> i hope he looks at the gee joe politics of this space. it's a dangerous space. two things. seoul is only 35 miles from the north korea border. they have conventional weapons trained on a city of ten million people. they are our ally. we have to help them if they're attacked. the other thing it's not in china's interest for north korea to destabilize itself. it's -- they're not looking for a unification of the korean peninsula around democratic ideas that we support with sunshisouth korea. that's why one meeting won't solve it for them. >> thank you very much. we'll be back with on "the point." the latest on the new questions

in the russian inquiry and the big story thiseeke -- taxes. trump firing back at those massive tax day protestsalling on him to do what every other modern president has done. we'll dig into the resistance against trump and why he's responding and what might be working. own by beauty editors who know best. cosmopolitan best daily treatment... regenerist spf 30. marie claire, 10 best editor-approved night creams... regenerist night cream. refinery29, best beauty products under $25... regenerist serum. beauty editors know what you've always known... allure reader's choice award winning brand, 12 years running... olay regenerist. ageless.

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so you'rhow nice.a party? i'll be right there. and the butchery begins. what am i gonna wear? this party is super fancy. let's go. i'm ready. are you my uber? [ horn honks ] hold on. don't wait for watchathon week to return.

[ doorbell rings ] who's that? show me netflix. sign up for netflix on x1 today and keep watching all year long. donald trump has certainly turned the nation's eyes abroad lately, but his opponents want to focus on domestic issues and anti-trump activists flooding some recent town halls, flexing their muscle at gatherings like this. >> you sold my privacy up the river. [ cheers and applause ] so senator, my question is, when are you going to choose your country over your party? [ cheers and applause ]

>> i'm not a paid professional organizer. i don't think anybody else in this room is. >> this weekend organizers gathering for the tax day protests. a story we first covered on "the point" last sunday. protesters gathering in 150 cities. most peaceful. though a brawl did break out in berkeley, california. with people on both sides of the tax and trump issue. demonstrators soaked with pepper spray and police tried to restrain the crowds and some took on donald trump directly about his taxes. >> i was raised to know that it's an honor to pay taxes. it's important to pay taxes. it's part of being an american citizen and helping each other. the only way to really penetrate this administration is to take it to the streets and be relentless. >> this isn't a partisan issue. this is about being an american and protecting our democracy.

>> if those protesters wanted donald trump's attention, they got it. new tweet today, quote, someone should look into who paid for the small organized rallies yesterday. the election is over. now, donald trump may honestly associate rallies with electoral politics, that i part of it. but there's no limit on when or how people can express their right to protest and march and if the rallies are getting to him the question becomes will they get results with the public as well? back with me is christina grier, associate professor and caden dawson from thh e soutcarolina republican party. caden, you look at that energy, you remeer the tea party and the effect it had. do you think this is effective, did you see anything wrong with what we just showed? >> ari, i saw nothing wrong with it. history has the ability to repeat itself and what the democratic party specifically need to do -- certainly not an

adviser to the party, but what we did from 2008 to 2016 is we had the tea party movement that felt a lot like these protests. they weren't exactly republicans. they were more libertarians. you're watching this energy and these -- and this excitement that's gathering up. it's fairly organic. i have been to two of these type of events to see who was handing out the pieces of paper and the organization of it. you know, it would be political malpractice for folks like me not to be looking at 2018 and 2020. but what happened with barack obama as we discussed before was there was an infrastructure left in place after george bush left office, a political infrastructure to elect people to office. this is what the democrats have in donald trump. he's very polarizing. the republicans had barack obama very polarizing. and you're seeing these crowds pop up. seeing these issues pop up. so regardless of whether anybody is paying or not, they're drawing a pretty good number of people. the question is, i don't think the democratic party and the new

leader of the democratic party are as capable as the republican party was in transferring that down to mayor's races, sheriff's races. or recapturing back the 1300 senate and u.s. -- senate and house seats around america. that's -- so it's political malpractice not to look at 2018 and in harm's way 2020. >> let me take that point -- >> see donald trump he could be -- show should be concerned with 2018 but more 2020 he's watching. >> let me take that point to christina and as a republican, caden is saying he sees overlap with the tea party which was politically effective. whatever you thought of their values. let me put up on the screen. this organization swing left saying it stts with the house. and the map basically helps any protester or organizer find the closest swing district. the idea being yes do the tax march and figure out where's the closest place you can change the balance of power in the next

election. >> so we know that it's protest politics and electoral politics that move movements. there are a lot of organizations, small grass roots organizations across this country, color of change, they're focused on the das races. and there are mayor races that are primarily democratic, but we can take back state house seats. these are doable things. but the key is how long will we be able to sustain this fervor, this anger, this passion, these protests and will they translate into people actually showing up during the midterm elections? unfortunately big "d" democrats view midterm as off year elections. we actually have a chance if they vote, but can we make sure that people show up in 2018 not just for the primaries but in november as well. that is really key. i think in a lot of cases when we look at the governors race in florida, the governments race in georgia, all across -- you know,

certain swing states, the organization has potential. and i think that donald trump's overreach, his kleptocracy, his ineptitude, inincome penitence will motivate the democrats since he's raising money for his re-election. >> on taxes, caden, i wonder do you think it reaches a point that donald trump or someone has put out some part of that one year's tax return. he says nobody cares. but this continues to go on, no at only with the protesters, but then donald trump himself responding to it today. do you as a republican ever see a team that you say politically maybe it's better to release them and move on? >> i have polled the issue recently, ari, and the average voter -- i'm not talking about population, i'm talking about voters, really have sort of moved past that. they know he's rich. they know he's done a lot of business overseas.

>> do they -- >> well, they know he's fairly rich. >> i mean, he's richer than the average bear as we say in the newsroom. but forbes had his number moving from, you know, $1 billion to $10 billion. a lot of variation. because we don't know what he owns. >> and we don't -- and remember i'll focus back to the primary that was pretty heated. there were conservatives like me with oh people and donald trump gathered his percentage of the votes so the conservative wing of the republican party who is waiting for the governing to happen and are real pleased with mike pence, steve bannon and what's been picked out there are fairly happy with where we are politically at this moment. but at the end of the day, we're still focusing on 2018 and what you're saying is will the tax issue hang on? i don't think it has legs. that's so many other things now. we have got iran that's been quiet. korea. donald trump's going to put out a tax package that certainly his base is going to like. and that's what i'm watching. let's see if the base fractures on this.

most of these protests are probably solidifying the base a little bit because they're not going to the town hall meetings. what used to the town hall meetings were the tea party and they were rougher than some of the ones you're seeing now. >> right. that energy -- >> see how that works out. >> that energy is very interesting what we showed with jeff flake and others having to answer for. we are out of time on this one. so thank you very much. now before becoming president president trump did promise to bring the best and brightest into government. as we approach what will be yes folks the 100 day mark, a huge number of top posts are vacant including diplomatic posts in the state department. how does this compare to past administrations? i will break it down next in normal or not. ing you back? break through your allergies. try new flonase sensimist instead of allergy pills. it's more complete allergy relief in a gentle mist you may not even notice. using unique mistpro technology, new flonase sensimist delivers a gentle mist to help block sikey inflammatory substances that cause your symptoms. most allergy pills only block one.

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and new university partnerships to grow the businesses of tomorrow today. learn more at esd.ny.gov now to our segment normal or not where we report on developments in the trump presidency. donald trump has recently leaned into conflicts with three different countries, afghanistan, syria and north korea. each of course with complex histories and trump says he's just learning about them and not from the usual sources. in fact, trump says he's discovering new information about north korea from a briefing by china's leader. president xi explaining to trump

that chinese/north korea history complicates china's ability to constraint them, and that led to trump to the tell "the wall street journal," after listening for ten minutes i realized it was not so easy. s theyed a -- i felt strongly they had a tremendous power over north korea but it's not what you think. or not what he would think. now, over at vox, zach bow camp made a list of problems with that one quote including number one, trump came to the profound realization after the ten minute conversation. two, trump's getting his information from the leader of the america's largest rival in the region. and three, trump required the leader of china to explain basic facts he could have gotten from one of the many u.s. government/north korean experts about. of those experts though, he famously said his lack of government experience wouldn't be a problem because he knows how to hire.

>> we have to stop being so politically correct. we need to get the best and the finest. >> the best and the finest. is trump getting them or is he getting good people? well, we took a look at this for you tonight and so far in key positions the answer is actually no people. over half of key diplomatic positions in the trump state department are unfilled. of the key 554 positions that require senate confirmation, trump has failed to propose even a nominee for 473 of them. so as trump says he wants to work with china to curb north korea, a note he's failed to choose a special envoy in the six party talks devoted to north korea's nukes. same thing for the state department coordinator for counterterror or ambassador to germany or for the nuclear nonproliferation committee and the nato group, well, there's no u.s. representative there yet either. or a diplomat to oversee iraq

and middle east policy. instead jared kushner has been over there recently. you should note 57 ambassadorships also open right now. that would be a diplomatic nightmare in any of those countries if a new problem arises. administrations we can tell you typically leave career politicians in place until a successor is named ormally other administrations do that to have staffing, but the trump administration chose to eject all the people in january. a new "vanity fair" report this weekend noting the white house has proven ignorant about these federal staffing challenges. noting unlike previous presidents, trump has neglected to appoint a professional staff with a high level governing background. this is due in part to ignorance. in his first meeting with obama, trump seemed surprised by the scope of the president's duties and his aides seemed unaware there wasn't a permanent west wing staff he'd simply inherit. so team trump was surprised to

learn they had to hire their own west wing staff and even inheriting a staff team prarly he fired them all. now he's getting advice from adversaries its doesn't sound like america first and compared to the historical precedent from other parties it is not normal. coming up next on the "the point" a week of flip-flopping by president trump especially on china. he called then currency manipulators and now a completely different tone. do we have a clue what trump believes, what is he trying to achieve and is it dangerous? our political power panel weighs in.

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i think i would have a very, very good relationship with putin and i think i would have a very, very good relationship with russia. right now we're not getting

along with russia at all. we may be at an all-time low. >> there it is, an all-time low. president trump's change of views this past wednesday on russia was part of a very busy international week which included some flip-flopping. right after changing his mind and his pledge to be america first and noter is even in syria. at that same white house news conference he decided to make kind of a nicer approach to nato as the secretary-general stood eye to eye with the president in the east room. >> the secretary-general and i had a productive discussion about what more nato can do in the fight against terrorism. i complained about that a long time ago and they made a change. and now they do fight terrorism. i said it was obsolete. it's no longer obsolete. >> if you're listening to that, you have to believe that nato which is only invoked its charter once against 9/11 attacks was previously not against terror and now in the last 60 days they have become

anti-terror. decide for yourself on the fact check. meanwhile the tough talk dealt with wall street. this morning on twitter he was asked this, why would i call china a currency manipulator when they're working with on the north korea problem? he told "the wall street journal" on wednesday they're not currency manipulators. i was discussing this earlier in the show. we want to play what he said about this in a debate in the campaign. >> if you look at the way china and india and almost everybody takes advantage of the united states, china in particular because they're sogood. it's the number one abuser of this country, and if you look at the way they take advantage it's through currency manipulation. >> all right. and some more news from that big interview with "the wall street journal." donald trump talking about fed chair janet yellin. he dismissed the idea she was toast. he likes and respects her and it's very early. that could be a surprise to

yellin. candidate trump said he'd likely replace her and lashed out as the fed kept interest rates down. >> well, what i'm saying zero because she's political and she's doing what obama wants her to do. she's keeping them artificially low to get obama retired. watch what's going to happen afterwards. i think she's very political. and to a certain extent i think she should be ashamed of herself. >> trump also backpedaled on the export/import bank and small companies are really helped. actually it's a very good thing. here was candidate trump. >> they're betting for politicians and others and a few companies and these are companies that can do very well without it. so i don't like it, i think it's excess baggage. i think it's unnecessary. and when you think about free enterprise it's not free enterprise. i'd be against it. >> and now for a deeper look at all of the president's flip-flops, author and columnist rich benjamin.

and brian darling. and back with us conservative kirstin hoglund, from faith wire news. brian, is any of this a good thing? >> well, i love that candidate trump. i don't know where that guy went. i think in one sense it's just the fact that we have a presidenwho inks outoud. he's somebody who does his deliberations on twitter and we all hear about it and see it and that's messy. that's not something we have been used to as an american populist, but what matters is what he does. he nominated neil gorsuch to be on the supreme court and many like me had a lot of heart burn over the missile strike in syria because they worried that was the beginning of a ground war in syria which i don't think anybody thinks is a good idea. when we'd be fighting both sides in that war. so i think there's a lot of heart burn, but ultimately where the rubber hits the road what president actually -- what the

president actually does is more important than what he tweets. >> well, kirstin, to apply that out, what he does now is not act on the currency whmanipulation agenda which is part of the whole jobs thing. he doesn't drain the swamp of goldman executives and it was something he ran on and he isn't doing. so some of this stuff has consequences, right? >> right. absolutely. what's interesting for political insiders in the republican establishment in washington this is a very good thing because he sounds a lot like jeb bush, chris christie, actually mitt romney more than the donald trump happened and campaigned during the election. but for the america first voters, for those, you know, first time republican voters, maybe some democrats that came over to vote for him because he was more protectionist on trade. because he was, you know, really giving the voice to those issues that so upset that class of

voters that felt so forgergen, he's in some cases abandoning them with his lest action. so it will be interesting to see this play out in 2018 to see if that group that came out in full force this past november will come out possibly against him. let's hope not, but i mean from the conservative perspective. >> and rich, kirstin uses the word abandonment. the question is "a," are they being abandoned in a substantial way? and then "b" do they feel abandoned because as you know, feelings matter. you wrote a book called white topia, you were spending time in the most white parts of the country to listen and learn how they're doing. they do happen to correlate with some of trump's support what your view is in the communities how they're going to perceive some of these changes? >> from the quote/unquote populist sense? >> yeah. >> my grandmother used to say when someone shows their personality believe them the

first time. >> that's a maya angelou quote. and maybe your grandmother. two wise women. >> wise women. when you look at his business career to begin with he said a bunch of things to get elected and now he's taken office. you have to look at his cabinet picks, look at a the budget he's submitted. look at the fact that he wants to repeal key parts of dodd/frank. this is the core of his behavior. so this is his policy and he's abandoned his quote/unquote populist message which never was. so will he come back to the voters, no. >> let's dig in on what you're saying. i want to bring back in brian. you're suggesting this isn't an abandonment, he's learning on the job, you're sugsting there was a con, not a real interest in jobs in america equity. >> not in the way he pretended. in other words, what you're seeing as flip-flops, his core being has always been for rich people, for poor people, for

corporations above working people and now people should not be surprise that his actual behavior is bearing that out. >> brian, how about that? >> well, if president trump is going to follow through with this skinny budget that's going to radically cut the size and scope of the government, sign me up. but if he morphs into somebody who agrees more with jeb bush and the squishy moderate he beat, then get me off board. i'm not going to sign up for that. but ultimately i think conservatives are going to look like a laser beam and watch what he does going forward. they will leave him if he does not continue to be a conservative. but if he continues with the conservative ideology and pushes conservative ideas they will stay on board. republicans will be rewarded in the next election cycle. >> brian darling and kristen hoglund, thank you. rich, we will see you later.

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capital punishment in a sprint with a plan to execute eight mens over a ten day period. many have a point, convicted murderers can spend decades on death row, delaying the punishment they're supposed to receive under the law. but critics object that flaws in the system do not justify a potentially hasty rush to conduct so many executions in a row. the critics are winning. the executions were set to begin tournament and that approach meant that arkansas could conduct two per day. but judges halted governor hufrpen's assembly line saying the irreparable harm is significant. if the drug does not anesthetize them, they will suffer severe pain before they die. the state is appealing. no state has ever executed so many people in a short amount of time and speed of execution obviously is not a record most

states try to break. in fact, the last state to execute two people in one day was oklahoma where witnesses described a harrowing process. >> 6:37 he says, something's wrong. at 6:39 he's still lifting his shoulders and head off the gurney, grimacing. and appeared to be in distress. so from start to finish, 6:23, if execution started. 6:39 is when they closed the curtains on us. a 16 minute process to watch. >> that was three months ago this month, guards strapped clayton lockett to the gurney. first he was injected with the sedative and then minutes later a drug to paralyze his body and stop his breathing and then the final dose of potassium chloride which is designed to stop the heart from beating. that is instructive because this three step system developed by

oklahoma is now used in 31 states that still practice capital punishment. proponents say those steps are designed to make it humane since an execution isn't supposed to include avoidable pain but the problems with the approach are not bureaucratic. they actually raised the more fundamental questions about why the u.s. executes people and whether there is such a thing as a humane or civilized way to kill our own citizens. because if the sedative is ineffective then the later injections cause potential pain and avoidable pain is is not supposed to be a purpose of any execution. the constitution bars torture and cruel punishment. but the supreme court did uphold this three step system in 2015 finding it does not violate the prohibition against cruel and unusual punishments. now other justices disagreed not only on what the constitution requires but on the facts of what happens. justice sonia sotomayor writes

that the way they execute people is the chemical equivalent of being burned alive. the word chemical is key. arkansas is rushing towards these ecutions tomorrow because the state supply of t sedative in the process is about to run out and the state can't buy more because the very companies that produce these drugs refuse to sell them for capital punishment anymore. for example experts point to how the drug which was not created for this process does not always work for this process. clayton lockett woke up after taking that shot of me daz alam, he was writhing, he had been pronounced unconscious. lethal injection is supposed to take ten minutes, his took 40. sotomayor said that underscored the problems with the drug that

it could be good at knocking someone unconscious, but bad at keeping them unconscious and maintaining the inmate in the state. this -- there's no national legal pause but these are creating a practical pause. most states that use the death penalty basically have a formal or informal moratorium on exkuptions in almost all cases because they're unable to obtain approved drugs to use in lethal situations. many watching how arkansas will resolve this standoff, and further rulings are expected on whether the executions slated for tomorrow can go forward in time. meanwhilome victims family members say the focus should be on the justice they were promised years ago in court and not which drug achieves it. >> my mother was everything. when she was ripped from my life it started to spiral that i almost didn't recover from. >> the difficulties in arkansas underscore the debate that did reach the supreme court as i

mentioned in 2015. if executions are constitutional then there must be a constitutional way to conduct them. while dissenters like justice breyer said that the time has come to customer whether the way executions are done in the u.s. actually serves to show why they must end. joining me now for a special discussion is a legal correspondent at "slate." her legal writing was cited by justice breyer in the 2015 dissent. we're joined by the author of "gruesome spectacles, botched execution. america''s" death penalty. dahlia, how did we get here? >> it's funny. i think a big problem that undergirds so much of what you just said there, ari, is that we have tried to medicalize and sanitize executions. at every step you are describing people m white coats, and what they're doing looks like you are

getting a root canal. the process in some sense breaks down because, back when there used to be a firing squad, you didn't have to worry about all these elements laying out here. so i think in a profound way, one of the ways we g leer and the three-drug protocol you have described, one doctor in oklahoma came up with that, and everybody did it, not because it was the best but just because it's what he did. i think, in a deep way, what you are seeing are these efforts to sanitize the death penalty. not only did they not sanitize and medicalize it. they made it like being burned alive from the inside. it's just that you never know it because you have sedated the guy first. >> austin, that goes to some of your work. you've focused on botched executions, which is a separate dimension than the moral question of when a society chooses to take a life. why do you focus on that? >> well, ari, if the united

states is going to have capital punishment, we have a constitutional, political and cultural commitment to doing it right. we have do executions in a way that comports with the eighth amendment's guarantee that we won't engage in cruel and unusual punishment. if you look at the history of executions we don't have a good record. 3% of all american executions have been botched, and the form of execution which is the most unreliable turns out to be the one that we currently use, namely, lethal injection. 7% of all lethal injections have been botched. and that's a record i think that americans should not be proud of. >> austin, let me push you on that. what proponents say is we, we are trying to make this more humane. that was the demand. why don't we go back to what dahlia mentioned, a firing squad, a hanging, or anything else if the very thing that

death penalty critics have seized on is now being used as one conservative supreme court justice put it, a back-doorway to try to end the death penalty that is still lawful? >> i don't think it's a back-doorway at all, ari. i thi t if you look at the history of the death penalty in the united states, what you find is that with every invention of a new technology of killing, the same promises are made, namely, that that method of execution will be safe, reliable and humane. if you go back to the end of the 19th century when the electric chair was introduced, it was claimed it would be foolproof. the gas chamber in the 1920s, the same claims were made. lethal injection in the 1980s. each of those is betrayed in practice. >> let me play one of the

victims of the crimes. when you have a system of laws and it metes out a punishment and can't seem to actually do it, you have the victims' family members who are basically sayings, well, we were told this is going to be the punishment. we sat in court and saw that meted out and now it's not happening. they also touch on the lives lost in what are often really terrible murders. take a listen. >> he is the last person that saw her, you know, at her most vulnerable time. we have suffered long enough. and my mom really suffered. >> what do you say to that? >> sure. my heart goes out to any person that has lost a family member, especially to a heinous crime. one thing that we do with the death penalty in this country is we tie the closure and the healing of these families, who have gone through such horrible

ordeals, we tie that to capital punishment, something that takes many, many years to carry out. we can see that playing out right now. the sentence of life without parole is a more final sentence, it's a sentence that would give the families more closure. right now what we do for families, we bring them back and forth to court to relive the heinous acts over and over again. i don't think that's justice for the families at all. >> i mentioned justice breyer citing you in that dissent. that dissent is well worth a read. i would advise it to anyone at home. it really did kind of put together in one place the overwhelming arguments against it. one of the other ones -- it's not about the drugs per se but does matter when you think about who is going through the experience, is all the data that shows complete disproportionate

use of the death penalty, first of all, against african-americans, even controlling for the same crime and especially concerningly the scenario where an african-american kills a white person. statistically that's the most likely way to get capital punishment. where does that fit into all of this? textbook on everything, a to z, that's wrong with the death penalty as currently practiced. you are quite right. he focuses on the racial disparities and the fact that, by dint of accident, where you committed the crime if it's in a handful of not even red states but a handful of jurisdictions in red states, you are apt to be killed and that's not fair. then just capital representation, the kind of lawyering you get if you're poor and particularly if you are african-american. he kind of goes through every layer. i would just say, when you look at the public discomfort in this

country with the death penalty, it goes right to these issues, the dna exonerations, the prosecutorial overreach, the racial disparities. all of that stuff is playing out right now in this arkansas case as well. >> dahlia -- >> if i might interject -- >> i am out of time because of the end of the show. i apologize. we'll keep covering this. thank you all. much appreciated. hope you also stay with us on "the point." we have a lot of other topics we'll get to in the next hour. the palace intrigue in the trump white house and the west wing. steve bannon getting a public dressing down, which is interesting. the other big legal story, the russia investigation. what's happening, what's the latest, why is carter page speaking out again and why he maybe shouldn't. i'll explain. a special segment on paranoia in politics, an old area getting a new look. stay with us.

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