>> reporter: let's make it very clear. these were airport security officers. they were wearing jackets that said "police." they were not police officers. they had been told in january, stop wearing those jackets. they were still wearing them in april. >> and with that, thank you very much for watching. "hardball" with chris matthews starts right now. from russia with money. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. it looks likely that former trump nasht security adviser michael flynn broke the law when he failed to disclose on security clearance forms the money he earned from russia and turkey in 2015 and 2016. at issue is that now infamous dinner flynn attended with russian president vladimir putin, where he made $45,000 for a speech he delivered for the russian propaganda network rt as

well as his foreign lobbying work that benefited the government of turkey. according to the house oversight committee, it does not appear that flynn requested or received the required pr mission necessary to carry out that work, which all former u.s. military officers must do. although flynn's attorney said he did alert the pentagon. anyway, lawmakers also say that flynn did not disclose those foreign payments when he renewed his security clearance. after reviewing documents related to general flynn and a briefing requethe defense intelligence agency, jason chaffetz and elijah cummings delivered a scathing summary of flynn's conduct which might constitute a felony under the law. >> general flynn had a duty and an obligation to seek and obtain permission to receive money from foreign governments prior to any engagement with them. it does not appear to us that that was ever sought, nor did he ever get that permission. if that money was received by general flynn -- and we believe

that it was -- that money needs to be recovered. as a former military officer, you simply cannot take money from russia, turkey, or anybody else. >> knowingly falsifying or concealing a material fact is a felony, which may result in fines fin fines and up to five years of imprisonment. we need to have the opportunity to ask general flynn directly why he concealed these foreign payments. >> i see no information or no data to support the notion that general flynn complied with the law. >> in his defense, flynn's attorney released this statement today. as has previously been reported, general flynn briefed the defense intelligence agency, a component agency of dod, extensively regarding the rt speaking event trip before and after the trip, and he answered any questions that were posed by dia concerning the trip during these briefings. anyway, but this is a striking reversal for flynn, who has a

top surrogate and adviser to the trump campaign, famously called for hillary clinton to be locked up at the republican convention last summer. >> we do not need a reckless president who believes she is above the law. [ audience chanting lock her up ] >> lock her up. that's right. yeah, that's right. lock her up! damn right. exactly right. there's nothing wrong wh that. if i, a guy who knows this business -- if i did a tenth, a tenth of what she did, i would be in jail today. >> general flynn last month requested immunity from congressional investigators as well as the fbi in exchange for his testimony. it also follows the announcement today that former acting attorney general sally yates will testify before the senate judiciary committee on may 8th. yates informed the white house in late january that flynn might

be compromised because of the way he described his russian contacts, misleading the vice president and others about the nature of his conversations. i'm joined now by u.s. congressman mike quigley of illinois who sits on the house intelligence committee which is investigating russia. mr. quigley, let me get to the bottom line of what we think about -- at least i do a lot, which is what was russia doing in our election last year, and what role might the trump people have played with regard to that? clearly, general flynn doesn't want to be put in prison. so he's talking about immunity. his lawyers are talking about some kind of deal. how does this information that he failed to comply with these disclosure requirements about his dealings over there and the money he took from russia and rt -- how does that put him in a position where he may want to talk about those above him, i.e., donald trump? >> certainly he could be prosecuted. that's going to be up to the justice department. re-listening to the tape you just played where he was saying "lock her up, lock her up," he's certainly in trouble in the

court of karma. it underscores the need f this investigation to go full throttle. it underscores the fact he was grossly unfit for this position in the first place. and justice will take place. >> what do you make of sally yates now testify something she's in the private sector now. she can speak. she's the one that basically threw the alarm switch on this guy, that he may be compromised because the russians have something on him. they gave him money. they had him over there, and he wasn't coming clean about it, at least not officially. >> yeah. i'm anxious for her to testify. i understand she's testifying before the senate first. she's invited to the house select committee on intelligence. i'm optimistic that will take place shortly there after. i'd love to see what she has to say. what did she say to the white house and when? when did she warn them about general flynn's vulnerabilities to russian blackmail and the russian ambassador's connection with general flynn? when did this happen, and if

that is true, why did the white house sit on it for so long? >> i'm getting a little frustrated watching this story develop. correct me if i'm wrong, but the senate -- your counterpart, the senate intelligence committee, seems to be slow-balling this thing. they're not really geared up it seems to get anything done yet. do you think your committee or the house oversight committee or the house judiciary -- which committee is leading this fight? are you guys out front because i see this being divided up, and it scares me because what it gets divided up, the army fails. so i'm wondering is there enough oomph, enough cesion to catch the bad guys? >> there's certainly going to be the effort. i'm as frustrated as you are. just understand on our side, we've been meeting with distraction for some time. the chairman's midnight excursi excursion, the president saying there was wiretapping in trump tower, closing and stopping the open hearing that we were supposed to have. again, i'm optimistic we're going to reset, reboot, and get going. the american public has an

absolute right to know how the russians were able to succeed attacking the democratic process. >> i hope you and adam schiff and the rest of you can really push this along. i know nunes was taken. he was humiliated by that midnight right of paul revere over to the president's office, then come back the next morning with what he got from the president was a joke. he looks like a joke. thank you, congressman quigley. >> thank you. i'm joined by nbc investigative reporter ken dill anni -- dilanian. congresswoman, what do you make of this situation? it looks like he hasn't dots all the is or crosses the t's. he hasn't even filled the form that was supposed to explain why he took that money from rt. >> he definitely has not dotted the i's or crossed the t's, and i think it's time we give this very close look. everyone in the united states, unlike russia, is entitled to a

trial. i think we need to start looking at that for general flynn. >> what do you make about his call for immunity? he wants to be promised that he can't be prosecuted obviously for felonies now if he testifies under oath honestly. he doesn't want to incriminate himself now. he just said so. >> it's interesting because as i recall, he said that anyone that asks for immunity must have committed a crime. so if we apply that to him, then did he commit a crime? >> what do you think about the white house? i want to get to ken in a minute. are you happy with the white house cooperation? i don't know if you watched that press conference today with spicer, did you i don't know if he answered the question, but he gave a lot of words saying they're asking for too much information. they couldn't possibly know about all the phone calls the guy made, et cetera, et cetera. what do you make of their honesty and forthcomingness here? >> i didn't see the press conference, but it sounds like business as usual. you know, they're good at deflecting, not answering questions, or delaying answers,

or not giving answers at all, hiding behind, i guess, executive immunity or whatever you want to call it in the white house. >> privilege. anyway in their review of flynn's foreign payments, the house oversight committee sent the white house requesting documents referring or relating to lieutenant general flynn's contact with foreign nationals. however, the white house declined that part of the house, saying that documents relating to such contacts are likely to contain classified, sensitive, and/or confidential information and that, more over, it is unclear how such documents would be relevant to the stated purpose of the committee's review since the paid speeches occurred before he was in the white house. today u.s. congressman comings slammed the white house for not cooperating. here he is. >> we received no internal documents relating to what general flynn reported to the white house when they vetted him to become national security adviser. and we received no documents

relating to his termination as national security adviser for concealing his discussion with the russian ambassador. in short, the white house has refused to provide this committee with a single piece of paper in response to our bipartisan requests, and that's simply unacceptable. >> here's what press secretary sean spicer had to say about those requests in his briefing today. >> we didn't assume the white house until january 20th at noon, so we don't have the documents prior to assuming the white house. they listed for every call and contact that he made, which is an extraordinary number that that's a very un -- un -- that's a very unwieldy request. to document every call he may or may not have made is not exactly a request that's able to be filled. but everybody document they've asked for, it's my understanding they've gotten. >> how about these calls made when he was working in the fran sigs on behalf of a future

president trump. aren't those -- >> i think, again, it's a question of if you can. when you ask for every call, that's a pretty -- i mean to ask for every call or contact that a national security adviser made is pretty outlandish if you will. >> ken, let's run through this catch 22 of sean spicer's today. it was really out of catch 22, the novel and the movie. first of all, they don't have any information before january 20th. none of the information after january 20th is relevant. by the way, you're asking for too many bits of information. so don't ask for too much. don't ask for the wrong time. i mean what were they willing to provide? nada. further mor >> the story, if you believe that story, is that the white house appeared to have very little interest in vetting their national security adviser. but i want to step back and say that i think this is a very

significant development, chris. here you have a democrat and a republican, heads of the house oversight committee, saying that mike flynn appears to have violated the law. and this is the latest example of where fnn may be facing legal jeopardyver failing to disclose payments from a foreign government. don't forget he was required to register as a foreign lobbyist for turkey. having not done so during the campaign while he was advising trump, he was also being paid by turkish interests. ordinarily these things are not prosecuted. but when you're in the crosshairs of an fbi investigation that's looking into whether trump aides colluded with russia, every little thing matters. you don't want to give the fbi leverage, which may explain why, you know, flynn's lawyer sent that extraordinary letter where he said, my client has a story to tell, and he requested immunity, chris. >> congressman kelly, what last question to you since you've waited for us here. do you think president was involved in cahoots with the russians during the election?

>> i would not be surprised. i just would not be surprised. he has not been the most forthcoming. he hasn't been truthful all of this time, so i would not be surprised. >> okay. thank you. coming up, in her first overseas trip, ivanka trump defends her father's policies as an advocate for women, and she gets some boos. now that ivanka is a special assistant to the president and the spotlight is on her, what is her role? is she an advocate for women or for donald trump? plus, our week-long look at trump's first 100 days. tonight, his war in the straight news world of the media and his repeated cries of fake news. he wants people to believe him and himalone. and is trump off the wall? he and his administration continue to send mixed signals about his campaign promise, his border wall with mexico. finally let me finish tonight with trump watch. this is "hardball," where the action is.

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welcome back to "hardball." in her first official trip abroad, ivanka trump, first daughter and presidential assistant, got a somewhat negative reception from an audience in berlin while defending her father's record on women's issues. >> he's been a tremendous champion of supporting families and enabling them to thrive in the new reality of -- >> you hear the reaction from

the audience, so i need to address one more point. some attitudes towards women, your father has publicly displayed in former times might leave one questioning whether he's such a power for women. how do you relate to that? are things change something what's your comment on that? >> i've certainly heard the criticism from the media, and that's been perpetuated. but i kno from person perience, and i think the thousands of women who have worked with and for my father for decades, when he was in the private sector, are a testament to his belief and solid conviction in the potential of women. >> ivanka trump was representing her father's administration at a w 20 summit of women business leaders with focused on the economic empowerment of women. she was flanked by the queen of the netherlands and the director

of the international monetary fund, christine lagarde. it stood in contrast to candidate trump's persona. there's the infamous access hollywood tape and his general treatment of women on the campaign trail. let's watch. >> in an interview last week in rolling stone magazine, donald trump said the following about you, quote, look at that face. would anyone vote for that? can you imagine that, the face of our next president? >> i think women all over this country heard very clearly what mr. trump said. [ applause ] >> i think she's got a beautiful face, and i think she's a beautiful woman. >> they said, he invaded her space. i invaded her space. believe me, the last space that i want to invade is her space. >> when you looked at that horrible woman last night, you said, i don't think so. i don't think so. >> such a nasty woman. >> wow, and when it comes to advocating for women in the first 100 days, the president has reved the 2014 fair pay

and safe workplaces order, which required wage transparency among federal contractors. he signed joint resolution 43, which gave states the authority to halt federal funding of family planning services to health clinics like planned parenthood, and he's appointed the fewest number of women to cabinet posts since ronald reagan. joining me right now from berlin is nbc news senior white house correspondent hallie jackson. hallie, thank you for joining us from a city i've come to like quite a bit, berlin. what was -- give us the sense of the room, how lagarde behaved. i watched her facial expression. she didn't look too thrilled with what ivanka was saying, but you were there. >> reporter: let me give you some color, chris, because in the moment that you played just now, you couldn't really hear the audience reaction, right? it didn't get picked up on the tv cameras that were there. but i will tell you when ivanka trump was spaebing about her father being a champion, you did hear some missing and boos from a handful of hecklers, not the

majority of women who had gathered to watch this panel, as you mentioned packed with these global power players, but it was certainly notable enough for the moderator to stop and say, hey, react to this moment. what you have seen from ivanka trump here on the international stage is what we have seen from her since the campaign, which is her being a defender of her father's. this is a role that she has come to know well, and she has not shied away from it, particularly now. she wants to be talking about what she's doing for women in the workforce, right? you mentioned some of these policies that her father has changed around in the first 100 days. ivanka trump wants changes like paid family leave, expanded child care. one other interesting moment, there was a point when the moderator asked the women onstage to raise their hands if they were feminists, and ivanka trump among some of the other women on stage did raise her hand. it was something the crowd got very engaged in because chancellor merkel had kind of a funky response to that question. i will add one more thing. the reaction from ivanka trump, i asked her about the hissing and the booing off camera.

she said, hey, politics is politics, pretty much shrugging it off. she's there with advisers dina powell. chris? >> thank you so much. nbc's hallie jackson in berlin. i'm now joined by nicole walsh and joan walsh. both of you are msnbc political analysts. nicole and joan, my problem here is that i've always said don't talk about family members politicians. they didn't get elected. they didn't put their face in this world we cover so brutally sometimes. then again, she's a special assistant to the president. she has a lot of influence with him, and she's in the showcase now because she took the title special assistant. so how should we look at her role? an advocate for women or an advocate for her father? nicole? >> you know, i think she's trying to do both, and in the end that might be what trips her up. i've followed her out of really personal curiosity throughout the course of the campaign.

i follow her on social media, and the vast majority of things she tweets about and pictures she posts have, i would say, almost nothing she tweets about has anything to do with politics or policy or her father's agenda. she's spent years now investing in her brand as someone who creates things for women that she wants women to buy in a commercial manner, and now starting with her convention speech, she's trying to be an advocate for women. the devil is always in the details. i think there are large swaths and groups of women who will never accept her father as being on the same page as his very composed daughter. >> she may be well composed but she also has a job now, special assistant to the president of the united states. she has a security pass. she can mingle among the most powerful people around the president. she has entree like most people would love to have, especially at her age. fantastic opportunity to influence history with her dad there. what's her responsibility to the public, joan? to the public and women,

including women. >> i don't know, chris, what she thinks it is. i mean she -- you know, i'm a daughter. i have a daughter. you have a daughter. we want to leave family members sort of off limits, but she did take a job in this administration, and she talks a really great game about paid family leave, child care. but she has accomplished nothing, and she's also profited already from her place in the white house beside her father's side. she's gotten, you know, new trademarks from china after going to a meeting with her dad. i mean there's a lot not to like about this situation. >> okay. >> even if she's a wonderful person. >> let's get to the role that she plays because of her father. i don't know about you, nicole, but i know your sense that the status like we all are, we watch status statements. you don't want to be seated below the salt at a meeting. look at the seating this person has gotten. at the sagage, what is she?

there's a young person never worked in the government sitting next to the president of china at a major event. another time she's sitting next to -- what's her name? the chancellor of germany. these people must look over and say, what is she doing here except she's the president's daughter. i've said the romanovs because there's something about the president who presumes that this is a royal family taking its place at the table of power. it is un-american. it is untraditional. it's somewhat weird although i know it must be comforting to have your kids around, your son-in-law. i get the comfort factor. but is it american? your thoughts first, nicole. >> i'm going to quote john oliver in "the new york times." john oliver who was riffing on this over the weekend said, you know, they're like our royal couple except they're both very attractive, and then in "the new york times" leading up to the china meeting, there was a whole article about how the chinese, who deal in the family dynasty

business when it comes to their politics were s comfortable dealing with an american political family. >> but they're not a democratic country. >> your question is is it american? there is no real precedent for this. i think it's weird too. i just have to say, though, for all of the temperamental concerns that i have about donald trump, for me, ivanka being in an official capacity in the white house is not one of the many, many, many things that keeps me up at night. >> yeah, i know. neither me, but i'm fascinated by the romanovs. last word, do you like the romanovs? i'm not talking about what happened ultimately but the power they have over their country because of their birth. >> i think it fits. but i think it means this man does not have many people around him outside of his family that he trusts, that he's developed a relationship of trust with. that bothers me also. >> i agree. >> like nicole, i'm in some ways glad she's there because i don't want bad things to happen. but it's also -- it's wrong.

it's just wrong. >> who wants to take on jared kushner in a meeting on the middle east? scared to death. everybody -- they don't want to say nothing. a little bit like u day and cue say. nicolle wallace, thank you, joan walsh, thank you. up next, trump's first 100 days has been alternative facts, fake news, and an obsession with his ratings. is this any way to run a country? you decide. this is "hardball," where the action is. security events every day. ddos campaigns, ransomware, malware attacks... actually, we just handled all the priority threats. you did that? we did that. really. we analyzed millions of articles and reports. we can identify threats 50% faster. you can do that? we can do that. then do that. can we do that? we can do that. mone hundredts thousand times a day, sending oxygen to my muscles. again! so i can lift even the most demanding weight.

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i'm milissa rehberger. here's what's happening. at least one person is dead and ten others injured in a multi-vehicle crash involving two big rigs on an l.a. freeway. the collision set off an explosion that sent plumes of smoke into the air. nascar racing star dale earnhardt jr. is retiring at the end of the season. earnhardt was voted the most popular driver 14 times by nascar fans since his racing career began in 1999. better than expected earnings from several big companies sent stocks on wall street into record territory today. the nasdaq soared above 6,000 for the first time ever. the dow rose about 230 points briefly breaking above 21,000. a jump in shares of caterpillar and mcdonald's fueled most of the gains. back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." all this week we're looking at president trump's first 100 days in office. today the focus is his attacks on the media. he recently told the associated press, i used to get great

press. i get the worse press now. i get such dishonest reporting with the media. it happened during the primaries and i said, you know, when i won, the one good thing is now i'll get good press, and it got worse. the president seems to take issue with reporters when they report facts. in the past few days, he's tweeted, don't let the fake media tell you i have changed my position on the wall. he went after whate called two fake news polls that showed him with low approval ratings. en he tried to preempt attacks on his first 100 days saying, no matter how much i accomplished during the ridiculous standard of the first 100 days, media will kill. attacking the press was a major thing during his campaign, and it's continued into his presidency. let's watch. >> even our enemies back there, look at all that press. [ audience booing ] >> among the most dishonest people in the world. >> i love it! we just took the press credentials away from the dishonest washington post. crooked cnn. cnn is so disgusting. >> "the new york times" is disgusting. the good news is it's failing.

it will be out of business within three years. >> where are you from? >> bbc. >> okay. here's another beauty. >> as you know, i have a running war with the media. they are among the most dishonest human beings on earth. >> the press honestly is out of control. the level of dishonesty is out of control. >> the public doesn't believe you people anymore. maybe i had something to do with that. i don't know. >> i'm joined now by two reporters who have followed donald trump since the beginning. nbc's katy tur and "the washington post's" robert costa. congratulations you'll now be the moderator of washington week in review, robert. you're not old enough for it, but you'll be great. let me ask katy. i've never seen anybody take the punches from this guy. you do not have a glass jaw. you took them and you gave great reporting po the point you laughed him off, it seemed. i think he doesn't carry about opinion from people like me or rachel or anybody else or joe scarborough. he doesn't care about opinion. what he fears are factual reports because numbers for the

electoral college, any information about the popular vote, any number about anything, hand size, any factual report, he has to go to war with. what's your theory? >> i do think he's got a problem with the facts more than he has a problem with the press. i think you're right to say that, chris. i think there's two things that you do. you fact-check him number one and you laugh it off when he tries to go after you because there's no other way to do it. if you take it seriously, it validates it. and the reality is donald trump is trying very hard to discredit the press, to make sure that the american public does not believe us because if they don't believe us, he can get away with spinning the facts, with shading the truth, with outright lying at times in order to self-aggrandize, which is what he did during the campaign and which is what we are seeing at times during this administration so far. the facts get in the way, chris. >> you know, robert, you've got a pretty even-keeled relationship with the guy. you get access to him. you report on him factually. my problem is that he says things that are not true all the

time, and yet he's the one that has crafted the term "fake news." he is the master, the producer, the all-time producer of non-factual statements beginning with the fact that his predecessor what's an illegal immigrant, which somehow people seem to laugh off and say that's just the way he got here. but, damn it, that's how he got here. how do you report on a guy that his own facts aren't facts? >> well, first off, you can't take the bait. the statement of fake news is a provocative statement by the president. he's trying in a sense to bait the media to respond, to politicize the media. it's the media's job in my view as a reporter to have scrutiny of this administration, to report deeply on what's happening, to investigate and to fact-check. he's not always comfortable with that dynamic to be sure. >> well, the irony is that as much as he hates or says he hates fake news, he's obsesse almost like a new york cab driver with listening to the

radio, in his case, watching cable. explain that. you can start with that, katy, because i think you were in his target zone for a long time because you were on the air covering him. he wanted to watch himself, he also wanted to know how he's getting covered. i don't think any president has had the tv on constantly like this guy. >> he's obsessed with numbers. maureen dowd pointed this out months and months ago. he's obsessed with numbers. when you hear him start talking, usually the first thing that comes out of his mouth is some sort of number. during the campaign he was obsessed with polls. he's obsessed with twitter because it gets him a number of likes, facebook the same thing and also television. the amount of time he spends on television, how the ratings are when he is on television. he gravitates towards that because it validates his importance. it makes him seem like he is somebody who people are listening to regardless of whether or not they agree with him. that's how he judges his worth is basically through the amount of folks that are listening or watching or liking or tweeting

or et cetera. he's obsessed with it. he can't stop watching. i was told during -- and i'm sure bob costa can agree with this. but a number of sources told me repeatedly during the campaign, people that go long back with donald trump, that the way to get him to read an article was to make sure that he was in the headline because he wasn't going to read something unless it was about him. >> robert, is television for him the daily or hourly substitute for immortality? if he's on right now, he's immort immortal. if we're talking about him, then he's winning forever. >> i'm not sure what's going on inside of his head, but i can te yous someone who's covered him for a long time, he watches television hour by hour, tracking as katy the headlines. he gets printouts of articles. going back to his time in real estate in the 80s, he's not just paying attention to the tabloids. he was also paying attention to who was on the cover of "new york times" magazine, who was on the cover of "vanity fair." he was crafting a public persona day by day, article by article.

>> i knew somebody at the times who told me that at 6:30 in the morning you used to be able to tell when he would tweet. he would tweet when the paper copy of "the new york times." he would look at the headline as bof the fold, didn't read the jump obviously, and reacted with a tweet. thank you so much. you guys are the pros on this one. robert kos tarks congratulations on your new important role, and i mean that. it's a classic role. >> congrats from me too. shout out. >> appreciate it. thank you. >> both of us to you. gwen eiffel, great shoes to fill. up next, is trump off the wall? little fun there on the pun. is he sending mixed messages about the wall he promised on the border? is he going to build it or not? you're watching "hardball," where the action is. ♪ ♪

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we will build a great wall along the southern border, and mexico will pay for the wall. >> buildhat wall. build that wall. build that wall. builthat wall. build that wall! >> and who's going to pay for the wall? >> mexico. >> who's going to pay for the wall? >> mexico. >> who's going to pay for the wall? >> mexico. >> sesame street. welcome back to "hardball." president trump's loudest rallying cry during his historic campaign for the presidency last year was his clarion call for a border wall, which energized his base of supporters and some say launched him into the white house. in his first real attempt to get funding from congress for the wall, not the mexicans, they're

not going to do it. trump caved. a senior white house official told nbc news that president trump is open to getting funding for the border wall this fall instead of using it as a sticking point this week. the president tweeted stutoday, don't let the fake media tell you that i've changed my position on the wall. let's bring in our "hardball" roundtable. us ted herndon, alina al sin derz and jam sherman. thank you all, lady and gentlemen. two questions to both of you. do the people who like trump because they don't like illegal immigration care what he does to stop people from coming here illegally, or do they want a physical, old-time, brick and mortar wall, first question? number two question, same question. can he get away with doing it some other way where he says he's doing it, stopping illegal immigration some other way? >> when i was at rallies over the course of the campaign, especially in new hampshire, i think there were a lot of calls for a physical -- >> brick and mortar? >> brick and mortar wall.

i think the idea that we were to take trump figuratively and not literally was one that oftentimes i didn't see reflected at the rallies. people were calling for the specific wall. >> they think that would keep the people out who come here for jobs? >> some -- lots of people are. >> the ladders are pretty cheap. you could probably get a ladder for 50 bucks to get over these walls. >> they're also masters at building tunnels, so there's that going on too. >> i don't think the wall -- by the way, i don't think the great wall of china stopped anybody either. >> well, i think -- >> so you think it's literally what he meant and he has to deliver? >> i think that a certain amount, a segment of his base would be disappointed if he did not deliver on a physical, literal wall. >> i agree. >> $30 billion. >> i've been out in ohio. i've been out intexas. >> do the want him to spend $30 billion on this wall? >> yes. i' been talking to people who will be hurt by his become, people who rely on disability, who rely on food stamps, federal programs to fix their homes. they say, don't fix my home. i want you to build the wall.

that is what a trump supporter told me in a city nicknamed misery, ohio, because it's doing so badly. the idea that people in the midwest really believe this country is being taken over by immigrants, they believe that. >> i think a lot of people come to this country to work on the wall. anyway, the right wing, including radio host -- is he a host? -- rush limbaugh is voicing disappointment with trump. let's listen to rush limbaugh. >> i'm not happy to have to pass this on. i'm very, very troubled to have to pass this on, and i want to say at the outset that i hope my interpretation is wrong, and i hope this is not the case, but it looks like from here -- right here, right now -- it looks like president trump is caving on his demand for a measly $1 billion in the budget for his wall on the border with mexico.

the democrats are threatening a government shutdown. it's the same old-same old, and i was hoping that trump would throw this shutdown thing right back in their face. >> well, you know, it's the difference between radio and maybe cable tv and governing a country. rush limbaugh can keep the red hots happy for 10% of the country, but they need the wall. you say they do, that 10%. maybe 15. i don't know what it is. it's not a majority of his supporters. they want the wall. so there he is trying to stir up ouble, but trump maybe will show a little weak knees at the right time, maybe the right thing to have. stop wasting $30 billion on something you should have never promised in the first place. >> but the reality is quite simple, which is democrats are not going to support -- >> not one. >> so in the senate, that makes a difference. >> you need 60. >> the legislative reality is not going to change no matter how much trump rallies or screams. >> so when he says, i'm going to do it in the budget, the one that starts october 1st, that's b.s. >> of course it is. >> it's no difference now than then. >> because the same issues that

are stopping it now are going to be stopping it later. by the way, you think about the fact he's not going to be able to get democrats on board, but there are republicans who are saying, look, i'm a fiscal conservative. that means i don't want to spend money on anything. >> if you represent a state, in that state are a lot of hispanic people who will take that as an affront, literally. you're slamming the door on our people. >> these are also people who said they were deficit hawks, said they were budget hawks. they would be then asking to pay 30, maybe $70 billion for a wall that may not be effective. >> tell me how he tells the person, man-to-man or man to woman when he has to go out to these places like erie, i know i told you i was going to build a wall, but what i really meant is i'm going to stop the flow of immigrants into this country. what are they going to say? >> i think like i said before, i think a segment will be disappointed. i imagine he will blame it on democrats. i imagine he will blame somethin on washington

dysfunction. i ink there is some appetite forethat. again, i think there is a group that is looking for that because it was not only -- >> would it be a reason not to vote for him against somebody else next time? >> it might be a reason, but he's not going to ever frame it as i didn't get the wall done. he's going to say congress didn't allow me to get this done. i was someone who came to stop the establishment, and the establishment stopped me. >> if he gets 52 republican senators and 230 or 240 house members, he can say that, but he ain't got them. >> but i don't think his base -- i've been talking to people about health care out there, and his base is saying he tried on health care. he tried on this. >> okay. will there be a wall? >> i don't think so. >> thank you. the roundtable is sticking with us. up next, these people tell us something i don't know. this is "hardball," where the action is. whoa, this thing is crazy.

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a chisel, a pick ax. >> how about a ladder? i think a ladder is my answer. >> this is more, i would say, not as fun because i think this is actually how the government is running. ben carson is going to be out in the country. >> listening tour on housing. >> to do a listening tour on housing. but i talked to a lot of conservative who's are really frustrated at the fact there's nothing getting done in congress. so while he's going out there and listening, i would think that conservatives would be kind of celebrating most of the time, but they're not very happy at all. >> carson's a good guy. this is a strange role for him in many ways. >> different topic. health care. mike pence met with mark meadows, the chairman of the freedom caucus on capitol hill privately in a secret meeting. >> they're sort of from the same wigwam. >> they are. they're trying to figure out if they can get a health care deal. there seems to be an emerging optimism on the hill they will get something out of the house. i personally don't think -- >> what, essential services? is that the deal? >> it's going to be something that really cuts back on those

big title i -- >> so big conservative states like montana, they can drop some of the stuff and make it cheaper. >> yep. >> it's always states rights with republicans. anyway, thank you. when we return, let me finish tonight with trump watch. you're watching "hardball," where the action is. is there an elk in your bed?

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trump watch, tuesday, april 25th, 2017. i think i should use tonight's watch to explain my own perspective on the trump presidency. well, two factors drive my thinking and my conscience on the matter. one is from the past. the other resides in the future. to begin with, and it could well be to end with, i will never forget how this fellow got started politically. it was pushing the fake news, to use his preferred term, that barack obama was an illegal immigrant. those who could never abide and still can't the picture of an african-american in the album of u.s. presidents. they can't stand him there on that list that begins with george washington and includes teddy roosevelt and their hero, ronald reagan. birtherism is donald trump's original sin. this is pure evil in itself i believe. this wasn't eve with the apple or a snake luring him in the garden of eden. it's donald trump's own

concoction. he's still got to answer for it as far as i'm concerned. i want a sincere policy. i want him to genuflect to the fact he lied and did so deliberately. my second factor in looking at trump deals not with the past but the future. remember sandy koufax, that great pitcher for the l.a. dodgers? he was the jewish ballplayer so observe ant that he wouldn't pitch on saturday, period. i lived through koufax's keir and remember how it started. six yrs of wild pitching, and bad win-loss records. the reason nobody remembers that is because of what came next. another half dozen of perhaps the most powerful pitching record in baseball history. a couple years he won almost 30 games. as much as i'm not forgive trump for how he started, i do hope that all this wild pitching of his will straighten out, and he can be good for the country. i have no problem with anybody, even if those close to me don't agree on this, but it's me, myself, in the quiet of the night. i enjoy his buffoonery but i do

honestly believe we'd be better off without this. this country cannot afford to live through these critical, scary years, with a fail you're at the top. that's hard hard for n"hardball. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> if i did a tenth, a tenth of what she did, i would be in jail today. >> michael flynn back in the headlines. >> lock her up, that's right. >> the bipartisan announcement alleging it was michael flynn who broke the law. >> it doesn't appear as if he complied with the law. >> tonight, why the white house is refusing to release documents on flynn. then -- >> i don't like the word accomplice. >> the first daughter booed on her first foray onto the world stage as an adviser to the president. >> whom are you representing? your father as the president of the united states, the american people, or your business? and h