their leadership is instinctive. they're experts in things you haven't heard of - researchers of technologies that one day, you will. some call them the best of the best. some call them veterans. we call them our team. hello, everyone. good saturday to you. i'm richard lui. early warning, new report suggests former national security adviser michael flynn was warned about his contact with russia's ambassador weeks before his phone call with that ambassador. the call that ultimately cost flynn his job. that report comes as one of the two candidates and france's

presidential race is claiming his campaign was hacked on the eve's of the country election. what impact will that have on tomorrow oh vote and was russia behind that cyber attack and are republicans doing what the health care hangover on saturday, just days after celebrating a legislative victory in the rose garden, a celebration, nancy pelosi dubbed a beer party. house republicans now head back to their home districts to face their constituents. >> you cannot do this to us. and to our children. you're doing a death camp. >> you're killing us. >> how do we wade through all this stuff? this should have been brought to the american people in a way that could be understood by all and this is a human rights. >> we're going to start this hour with the new developments concerning michael flynn and his dealings with russian officials. "the washington post" reporting that members of the trump transition team warned the former national security adviser about the risks of his contacts with the russian ambassador. that warning happening one month

before flynn was then recorded speaking with the russian ambassador. officials were so concerned here about whether flynn knew the motives of the ambassador that they asked to see a cia profile on sergey kislyak. the officials also say that the obama administration was cautious in its dealings with the trump team amid the questions about potential ties to russia. joining us is one of the journalists who broke that "washington post" report. greg, thanks for being here on this. that was a quick overview of what you were reporting on. what are we missing here? >> well, i think i want to -- i want people to understand this is like a pretty small group of people inside the trump transition who were kind of establishment republicans. they were outnumbered and they were kind of freaked out about what they saw with flynn and russia. they were basically trying to get him to snap out of it. what you're doing doesn't make any sense right now. they couldn't get through to him and they really didn't have the

rank or the influence to try to stop it. but it just adds to, you know, the -- just the bizarre aspect of flynn, this experienced military intelligence, three-star general taking these reckless steps in his communications with the russian ambassador and to what end. >> greg, do we know why flynn did not heed these warnings? >> you know, that's -- no. i mean, that is one of the weird and hardest to answer questions here, right? it is just why? i think that some would argue, look, flynn does have this kind of streak of independence and some critics would say recklessness and maybe just thought i don't have time for these kinds of constraints, you guys don't really get what we're trying to do here, i'm trying to turn things around in our relationship with russia and get out of my way. but i mean, the questions when you start talking about flynn

just pile one on top of the other. why would he then lie to the vice president about it if he thought he was doing something appropriate and defensible? why would he so quickly mislead his bosses? >> and the question that has to be asked as well is did the president-elect at that time knowhat this warning had gon out flynn? do we know that? >> no. i mean, i don't -- nothing in our reporting suggests that these people who were inside the transition, who were subordinates to flynn were trying to go over his head to say, you know, you've got a problem here. >> all right. thank you so much, greg miller. great reporting as always. i appreciate you stopping by. >> absolutely. we could learn more about the concerns over flynn on monday from sally yates. she served under president obama at the justice department and was briefly acting attorney general under president trump you might remember until he did fire her. yates is among those testifying before the senate judiciary committee on monday.

kelly o'donnell is near the president's retreat in new jersey. good afternoon to you. are you we hearing anything from the president amidst all these developments on flynn, the reporting coming from greg mill sner. >> no. no kmepcomments from the house. this is in the hands of different body, congress overall looking at the russia question or the fbi and so the white house has backed away. at the same time, they say that the president believes he made the right decision to ask for mike's flynn's resignation which was given just about three weeks after the start of the trump administration after flynn had been an adviser to candidate trump for more than a year. they are trying to keep some distance. at t point they also say it's appropate for the inspector general and the department of defense to look at flynn and his paid contacts where he gave a speech and made a visit to moscow and he had not reported

the payment he was given for that which was required as a retired general. and so there are different areas where flynn has raised red flags and at this point the trump administration has been saying he's no longer a part of the trump white house, no longer an adviser to the president, and so this for them is something they want to put behind them. difficult to do, but they are not engaging day-to-day with each of the developments. and i don't think we should expect that they're going to say something new. there might be an opportunity to put questions to the president at a news conference, but so far in talking with aides and advisers, they say there's a separate sort of ongoing inquiry and it's got to play itself out. >> those inquiries going on right now. those investigations that you've been reporting on for us, kelly, and this is going to be an pr important part of that in looking at what has happened. while we've got you i want to move to oatanother big piece of

news, health care. big win, because it made it out of the house. what are we hearing from the president in terms of this moment? >> well, the president is urging the senate to get going toch. to begin its own process. there's an urgency comingut of the white house. they've been criticized for having a celebration in the rose garden after the house passed their version of an overhaul of the health care system. just one piece of a long puzzle to get a change to the current law which is known commonly as obamacare. and that celebration is something that in some ways the white house wanted to kind of spur some momentum. however, senate republicans are saying they want to write their own bill. they want to do it in their own way. they want to consider the issues themselves and have their own attempt to do a rework of obamacare and then come together with the house and see if they can find an agreement across capitol hill. that will be very complicated, very difficult, and it will take time. so the president feeling good about what happened with the house getting over its own hurdle is trying to get some

motivation to the senate. but he'll be limited in his ability to do that other than to encourage them and to try to get his supporters to encourage them to move quickly as well. >> nbc kelly o'donnell in new jersey with the president. thank you so much, kelly. one of the biggest fights over trumpcare involves pre-existing conditions that insurance companies could use to raise premiums. sherrod brown tweeted out nearly 100 of the ailments could cost you big money if trumpcare is passed. they range from simple things like acid reflux, acne, heart disease andgnancy. thank you both for being here. sh, start with you. should the president feel confident? >> i think it's a long path forward as kelly said. the senate folks say they want to rewrite the entire bill. even though they had a celebration in the rose garden on thursday afternoon, you know,

i think we've got a long way to go. it's a little bit of momentum. it gives him some sense that he can get something done legislatively because so far they have not been able to do much of anything, but i don't think it's anywhere near done. when we get to the end of this process, the bill is going to look entirely different and it will probably take six months or longer. we'll see how the president does in that period. >> katherine, thou wihow will h here? how will president trump do with the senate? >> well, it looks right now that the senate wants to start from scratch. they know there's a lot of stuff in this house bill that's extremely unpopular, in particular many of the waivers that states could apply for to no longer guarantee no discrimination against people with pre-existing conditions or essential health benefits. so what the -- the question that remains for trump and for the future of this repeal effort is what actually will this thing

look like? remember that the bill got through the house in part because members of the house don't seem to know what's in it and we don't actually know what it costs or how many people will lose insurance. so ty will not have the benefit of that lovely ignorance going forward when presumably the cbo does come down with its pronouncements, its projections about what this will look like. and the senate process is going to take much longer and we'll see whether members of the senate are willing to let these things go through without having any type of score for whatever version they produce. >> looking down the road here, josh, as katherine is intimating, when that scoring comes out from the cbo, we presume they will be doing there, there could be high prices to be paid for many who voted for it if it comes out in these difficult numbers, millions of people potentially not having coverage and they voted for it. already the political report as you probably saw switching and

moving 20 districts towards democrats in their estimations because of the passing and they're looking at again the political cost. >> right. well, the first cbo scored showed 24 million people could possibly lose coverage because of the law and then the law became more conservative in some ways in the second. i think in the house races going forward you have a president who has republican control of the senate and the house but in 2018 the pre-existing conditions and how this will affect day-to-day people i think will become a big part of the election. you saw back in 2010 when democrats, you know, struggled and loss the house because of obamacare in a lot of places this could do the same thing because a lot of these members have even said publicly they didn't read the entire bill. i think we don't know how many people it's going to affect. the studies, you know, are a long way done and the senate bill will be totally different. so a lot of these folks are going to be hammered possibly in their districts for a vote they

took. the repercussions may be more damaging than voting for it. >> katherine, pull out your calculator here. the political calculus here, they're off for a week, going back to their districts, folks are doubly not happy if you are to look at some of their town halls that happened earlier in the last month. what's the calculator show us here? >> well, you have to remember that even when obamacare was unpopular, and it still is not super popular, things that obamacare does are quite popular. whether it's the pre-existing conditions provisions or other things. now that the public is actually learning that the things that they like in the law are part of the thing branded obamacare, their approach to both the law and the people who are trying to undo it has changed dramatically. now people are becoming much more informed about what they

have at stake, what they could potentially lose, and they're showing up at these town halls and they're giving their congressmen what for and they're saying hey, you want to take my insurance away from me. >> so what's the win for those who voted for it knowing that that's there? >> i think what may be going on is that they have been promising for almost seven years now that they would repeal obamacare. again, this is something that they could easily promise when the public didn't quite understand what the stakes were, what that really meant. and nobody really wants to take the blame for failing to deliver on that promise. so i would imagine that there are a lot of members of the house right now who are saying yeah, i voted for this thing, but it's never going to actually pass. the senate will take the blame for failing to deliver on this promise, but i can still claim to my constituents that i did whey could to try to make health care better without having undone this entire law. >> the rock and a hard place argument i guess is what might be made there. thank you so much, katherine. thank you josh as well. thank you both for stopping by.

>> thanks for having me. some of the scrutiny that we've been talking about that republicans are facing when we go live to western new york state. there republican congressman tom reed getting an earful from constituents at a town hall. we'll also be joined live by argument congress member who voted for the republican health care bill. we'll ask congressman rooney if he's concerned about blowack for his vote. stick around. uture freaks her out. how come no one likes me, jim? intel does! just think of everything intel's doing right now with artificial intelligence. and pretty soon ai is going to help executives like her see trends to stay ahead of her competition. no more sleepless nights. - we're going to be friends! - i'm sorry about this. don't be embarrassed of me, jim. i'm getting excited about this! we know the future. we're going to be friends! because we're building it. nitrites or artificial mesquite preservatives.added nitrates, now it's good for us all.

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the number one priority and you vote for a law that makes that out and the mandate that they don't have to provide it? explain that. >> congressman tom reed is defending his vote to repeal the affordable care act. many of his constituents as you heard there turned up at a town hall event earlier, made it clear they did not agree with him. >> this is a joke. >> the republican congressman from new york is holding a series of town halls throughout the state today. joining me now from his third town hall of the day is nbc senior political editor beth in new york. thanks for joining us, beth. what's the tenor been like? >> it just got started. it's a bigger crowd than we saw earlier this morning, the sound bites that you played. so far it's pretty quiet

respectful group. everybody is listening to what the congressman had to say. they're starting to tee up the questions about health care and what the folks want to talk about. it was a very different situation back in the other town hall. passions very high. people very concerned about losing pre-existing conditions and worried about medicaid -- expansion of medicaid that's helped a lot of people in these rural counts. they're worried it's going to be tied back. >> as you look forward, was he able to convince some of those that were critical, and we did play some of that sound of one of the situations you were reporting on earlier. >> it was a skeptical crowd. i would call it that. there was a lot of concerned people. they were getting up talking about their pre-existing conditions, will this health care cover me, i've had cancer in the past, my child has special needs, my son is a diabetic. he told people he is affected by this.

his son has type one diabetes, so he said he's very concerned as well that pre-existing conditions are covered and he is insisting that this new pill, this trum capcare will cover pre-existing conditions. >> that's been the art back and forth, whether or not it does cover pre-existing conditions and arguments being made by those who supported it. for representative reed here, that district going 15 points for president trump, is he concerned at all that the support may wane for him based on what might be seen of flexible space of 15% points? >> we see quite a number of trump supporters in this one. i asked congressman reed about that. i said at the last town meeting we did a quick interview and i said are you worried about the political ramifications of this. because as you remember in 2010 democrats after they passed what we now call obamacare, there was a blood bath. they lost the house in 2010.

i asked congressman reed if he's worried about that political fate for republicans and he said look, i'm trying to do the best thing i can on health care for my district and we'll just let the politics happen as they do. >> beth there for us in new york. one of the town halls as congress takes a week off getting some of the action there on the ground. thank you so much, beth. congressman reed is not the only one who's had to face some crowds throughout the year. joining us is florida congressman francis rooney. thank you for being with us, representative. will you be holding a town hall to try to understand what your constituents are feeling about this latest bill? >> well, i'm sure we'll hold some pretty soon. we've already held several. i think you even played a clip on msnbc of one where we had a little over 700 people at one and we've had several of over 300 people. >> you saw that discussion that beth was just telling us about.

more trump supporters arrived at this latest town hall. it was a little bit quieter than the previous one that she was attending as well. do you believe that this is going to go straight down the lines of those who supported donald trump and those who did not or there will be those in that working class, if you will, space that will say what are you doing, this is not what we wanted? >> well, you know, health care for americans is too important to be partisan. what we're trying to do here is replace centrally planned top down mandate that has failed with a new idea that will hopefully bring competition into the market and deal responsibly with subsidizing these high risk people with adverse medical conditions so that everybody else can get some decent insurance that they can afford. i think we need to give this a chance and i'd like to continue to work to explain the fact that no one has ever suggested removing protections for pre-existing coverage. i don't know where these issues keep coming up. and that lady you just had on

there talking about losing herm her mandates. they're not going given away. they'll be given to the states to decide how each state wants to deal with things. >> did you read the entire bill before you voted on it? >> i read a great deal of it. and then i read a lot of summaries of it. reading these bills is -- you've almost got to read them with someone that understands what the different sections they're referring to and all that. so it's not so bad to read a carefully drafted summary and then compare it to the text. >> part of this -- the bill itself, some say who are critical of it here, representative, that it dulls the incentive for people to stay covered, to have insurance. how do you answer that? >> well, it does have an incentive to stay covered because if you drop your coverage, you can pay a 30% penalty. i think that will help incentivize people to say covered. >> one of the wrinkle system that if you're in a state that

received a waiver, which is also a concern here for many, that you could not be charged a higher premium based on their health unless there was a lapse in coverage. and that's one of the criticisms here. >> right. if a state gets a waiver and someone drops their coverage or has a lapse, they can be charged a different premium, but the state also has to either set up its own high risk fund to help sup sup si di -- >> you may have heard the conversation i had earlier on in one of the summaries of it was this isn't exactly what supporters like you wanted, but you had to fulfill a promise. was this part of that in terms of why you voted for trumpcare, that you had to fulfill a promise that was made? >> no. the people of district 19 hired me to do a job. part of the job is to make sure we get better health care for americans with a system that

really works. that's all i've been focusing on. >> what do you say to those constituenhat might say pre-existing conditions, could you please just keep that because we don't believe that this new bill protects us? >> well, this is what i don't understand is why they believe that when the bill clearly does provide for protection of pre-existing conditions. >> and where does it say that? because if you do look at the bill, we just had a list that we put up a little bit earlier of pre-existing conditions that many believe are saying this is not covered. even acne was one of the lists sherrod brown was saying. >> yeah. they can say all these detailed medical conditions that theoretically could afflict someone, but the bill doesn't say insurers can drop coverage. the only thing the bill does is create opportunity for the states to decide which health benefits are mandated to the people can respond to a government closer to them than

the federal government. >> also the question of states pu pursuing waivers. we could have a long conversation. thank you so much. we'll have to leave it there. voter in france will choose their next president less than 24 hours from now, but on the eve of the election, one of the two candidates claims his campaign was a target of a massive cyber attack. the impact will have on tomorrow's election is one of the questions now. we'll go live to paris. mom,

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welcome back. here's what we're following right now here at msnbc. house leaders are heading home for a recess after voting to replace the affordable care act. now the focus is the senate. michael flynn in the hot seat again. there's some new reports that say the former adviser was

warned by trump transition officials about his contacts with russia's ambassador. this happening weeks before the call that ultimately cost him his job. we're one day away from france's highly anticipated election and macron, the candidate leading in the polls, said his e-mails and campaign were targets of a massive and coordinated attack. release coming on the eve of france's official blackout period which forbids media and campaigns from talking about the election for 48 house until the polls are closed. his opponent marine la pen has yet to comment on whether or not her campaign fell victim to a similar hack. joining us now from paris is nbc matt bradley. matt, thank for being with us here today. tell us about who might be behind this hack and how severe it was. >> thank, richard. well, we're obviously a lot of the suspicion initially has

fallen on russia. that's not just because of the u.s. hacking last year, but because russia was also implicated in some hacks in germany, specifically with angela merkel's leading party. they were thought to be this fancy bear group that has been indicated in the dnc hacks last summer. and a japanese cyber security firm released a report just a couple of weeks ago saying that macron's party had been hacked just several weeks ago. so that's of course where suspicion has initially landed. >> what was stolen? >> it's really following a lot of the same pattern that the dnc hacks followed. mostly e-mails. campaign officials, party officials, and that sort of thing. the kind of thing that reflects mundane banter of groups that was leading the campaign which was the new political party a

attached to this candidate emmanuel macron. >> the timing not good. clearly potentially strategic here for these hackers in terms of when it happened. any understanding, and this is certainly tea leaf stuff here, the impact it will have on the election, the outcome? because macron had a double digit lead in polls in the 20s leading up to this. >> well, richard, it was strategic and it wasn't strategic, because of course coming as it did right before this media blackout, which we're now in the midst of it meant the macron campaign can't spend all of day and much of tomorrow denying what was seen in these e-mails. it also means that la pen and her supporters aren't going to be able to assail the macron campaign with whatever they find. it just goes to show that this kind of timing might not have been regulated by any particular

group and it was just sort of popularized by actually right wing elements, peeople from the alt-right as we call them in the united states. they're the ones that found it and spread it around. >> in the evening there on a saturday, the day before that big election. matt bradley, thank you so much. next how a white house invitation from president trump to a notorious world leader is shining a light on another potential of interest. stay with us. s bell rings... ...it starts a chain reaction... ...that's heard throughout the connected business world. at&t network security helps protect business, from the largest financial markets to the smallest transactions, by sensing cyber-attacks in near real time and automatically deploying countermeasures. keeping the world of business connected and protected. that's the power of and.

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welcome back. a stunning move by president trump is shining a light on yet another potential conflict of interest. president trump invited philippine president duterte to the white house prompting criticism from human rights advocates. duterte is running a brutal and deadly war on drugs in his country allegedly hiring hit squads to target suspected dealers and addicts as well.

now awe repo report is revealin details of a trump real estate project in the philippines that until six days ago featured the president and his daughter ivanka heavily in a series of promotional videos on its website. joining us kathleen clark, professor at the school of law. another conflict as we look at the president's organization which is now being run by his two sons being caught up in a question of conflict of interest here. how do you summarize this latest development? >> what this news report shows is a consequence of donald trump's refusal to sell his assets and so what this raises is the question of whether u.s. foreign policy is being driven not by u.s. interests but by donald trump's and the trump's organization financial interests. is his new attitude toward fi

philippine president duterte motivated by his business interests in the philippines? >> and the shocking headline that goes along with this is he is saying he will address duterte and invited him and that by itself was also a shock to many because of, again, as i was mentioning here, of the way he is dealing with not only addicts but also dealers. >> that's correct. duterte has -- is notorious for essentially apparently organizing death squads which are wreaking havoc in the philippines and potentially in addition to the human rights violations resulting in destablization of that country what would not be in the long-term interest of the united states or consistent with how we have treated the philippines and other countries recently. and so the question is why this change? and is it because of his financial interest? >> over 5,000 have been -- some of the reports that have been

killed because of this campaign from the philippine president. one of the items that had been brought up is these are old videos. they're from 2013, these endorsements that come from president trump and now his daughter who's also part of the white house staff and that therefore they are historical is the argument being made here. does that holdup in law? >> no. the videos may be from a few years ago, but my understanding is that donald trump continues to have a financial interest in that real estate development. he had a licenng deal with a phillippino company, real estate company, and it just so happening that the person who owns that company has been appointed by the philippine president to be an envoy on the united states for commercial interests now. >> there are more details. thank you so much for stop

objectiing. by. i appreciate your help. after this break, president trump celebrating a jobs report that saw the nation's unemployment rate fall to its lowest point in the decade. how much credit can he take for that? also, coming up later on, we'll have more on the very report itself. stick around. ♪

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it was a great jobs report and president trump did celebrate that hours after the department of labor released their latest numbers, the president tweeted great jobs report today. it is all beginning to work. in that report it was announced that 211,000 jobs were created in april. the unemployment rate falling to 4.4%. the lowest in a decade. but president trump has not always been a big fan of these numbers on the campaign trail. you might remember labeling the numbers as phoney. leaving sean spicer to say after the first report under the trump administration was released he said this. >> i talked to the president

prior to this and he said to quote him very clearly. they may have been phoney in the pa, but it's very real now. >> joining us, chris, former department labor secretary in the obama administration and now a senior fellow at the university of virginia. thank you for being with us here today, deputy secretary. the first question i'll ask is how good are these numbers by themselves? 211,000, 4.4%, best in ten years. >> they are good numbers and they're good numbers under any administration. they continue seven years of job growth that were begun under president obama's watch. i will caution two warning signals i see. one is wage growth which is 2.5%. that's not enough to make a difference in most american lives. i also think there's external factors that can create storm clouds. you've been talking about the french election and the outcome

of that could affect us here in the united states. i think most importantly, the potential repeal of the affordable care act could have a devastating impact on our economy. >> the lag or lack there of, depending on how you big brains talk about it here, can president trump or president obama, former president obama, take credit for this 211,000? >> well, it is clear that presidents can affect the economic fortunes of the country and can take credit. but let's remember where president obama was eight years ago. we were in the midst of the greatest economic downturn in my lifetime because of the actions president obama took with the stimulus, saving the auto industry. we've created the glide path for seven years of job growth. i am yet to hear a jobs plan from president trump at this point. >> is it getting overheated, though? that's a concern. also part of this discussion is manufacturing jobs, we're seeing that look really good. 6,000. that is five or six months straight that we've seen a

growth in manufacturing jobs. that's important to the heartland. >> this is what economists call full employment and the federal reserve will make a decision in june whether to raise interest rates. i am concerned about the wage growth of 2.5%. that's not quite where i would like it to be for the fed to be raising interest rat. an external factor that could affect this recovery. >> while we've got you here, deputy secretary, i want to turn to something. because today is saturday. today is an important day who may know may 6 is the 135th anniversary of the chinese exclusion act which outlawed chinese laborers. i bring that up to you for an issue you know well. you helped to organize and recognize this very group at the labor department. why did you do that? well, you're right. this is a part of the history that most people do not know about. that the transcontinental railroad, at least the western portion, was largely built by a

labor from china. the reason you don't know about that is because in the history books they were basically asked not to be there. in the point in utah when that golden spike was hammered in. this was an important recognition of the obama administration that these laborers reserved a place in u.s. history. it also speaks more broadly to the important role that immigrants play in our country and that's a lesson we ought to think about in this point in our history when immigrants and refugees are being ossttra size by the current administration. >> the first and only major federal law that targeted a single ethnic group as you know. thank you so much. i appreciate your time. >> thank you for having me. >>. next how an incident at boss ten fenway park raises some questions about racism. my doctoe helps ease fibromyalgia pain. she also prescribed lyrica.

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kurt shil suggechilling is havif that. it all began on monday when the baltimore orioles center fielder says he was berated with racial he heck elling including the "n" word and had a bag of peanuts thrown at him. he said this is the worst he's endured in his 12 year career. >> number 10, adam jones. on tuesday jones got a standing ovation at the park. as you see here, the team also issuing a statement saying they have zero tolerance for such prejudice, but at that same game tuesday a red songs fax fan use

racial slur. at calvin who is pictured on the right here who takened the game with his son and father-in-law. he reported the incident and the man who used slur was removed from the ballpark and has been banned from fenway for life. the city of boston and the red sox cooperation have been called into question in the past. 12 years after jackie robinson broke the color barrier in the mlb. at one point the naacp even accused the team of having a, quote, anti-negro policy. j jim rice spent his entire career in boston. david ortiz and multiple plays from multiple ethnicities, the team won its title. this week's incident has forced

to team to confront his racial history again. kevin, thanks for joining us. you wrote an article on this in "the globe." you said this. quote, they don't believe jones because no one with one dubious exception has come forward on twitter or facebook or called a radio talk show or told a newspaper or a television station that they heard the slurs. that they say they've gone to many games at fenway and never heard the "n" word as if that proves anything. kevin, how often have you heard this word being used at fenway? >> i can't say i personally have ever heard the "n" word used at fenway. i have heard it many times in boston in various places. what i tried to write about the other day was the idea of people being overruly defensive about this and engaging in a form of

deniali denial by suggesting that because there's no independent corroboration of what mr. jones said happened at the game people don't believe him. it's not a small number of people who don't believe him. i think it's rather large. if you listen particularly to sports talk radio, if you look at the comment boards even in the"the boston globe" you'll fi people skeptical and accusing him of lying. you have to place it in the context of what's going on nationally and what people say on cable networks, sports cable networks in particular describing boston as the most racist sports city in america. there's a realov overdefensive reaction to that. instead of talking about the bigger problem which is in fact people using racist terms at sporting events, shouting abuse at players, using the word as if there's nothing wrong with t we're bogged down on the symptom

as opposed to the wider problem. i think it's a form of denial. >> that criticism of boston as a sports city, is that a fair or unfair characterization? >> first of all, when anyone goes on television and says that boston is the most racist city or the most racist sports town, i find that hard to take seriously as an argument because there is no metric to measure that. but i don't think that there should be this sort of over defensive reaction to suggest that oh, everyone's lying about this, boston doesn't have a problem. i think all cities have a problem. i think there are racists that go into sporting events every single day in this country. the bottom line is when they engage in behavior like this and they're called out on it, people should be i think very clear about this. there's no place for this. it's just unacceptable. >> absolutely. >> to me it doesn't matter if you're a racist jerk or just a

plain jerk. when you act like that, you should be called out about it. i think the boston red sox have done just that. >> should the penalty be greater? as you know, jones was saying 10, $20,000, some would say lifetime ban as was done in one of the cases related to this jones incident. >> jeez, you know, i haven't even given thoughtbout punishments. obviously the red sox as a private organization can ban anybody they want for whatever behaviors they consider outrageous. to me the punishment isn't even as much an issue as talking about this problem . it happens. i've talked to people all week who said it happened to them. people of color. people who have heard it. a lot of them -- the other thing i found particularly when boston red sox fans or boston sports fans are upset about this saying they didn't believe adam jones,

you had pboston red sox players themselves, one of the pitchers, saying they've heard it at fenway. to me it's not a good look. you can call it anything. it looks like denial. >> denial is the title of your column if people want to google that. thank you so much, kevin. as always. great article. i appreciate you stopping by. >> thanks, richard. >> that's all for me this hour. i'll be back at 4:00 p.m. eastern time. join me then. yasmine picks up the coverage from here. i can't wait for her to have that college experience that i had. the classes, the friends, the independence. and since we planned for it, that student debt is the one experience, i'm glad she'll miss

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