storey. it's 11:00 p.m. in paris. the paritying well into the night after the victory of ma kron. the stakes for europe and the rest of the world very high. a good evening you to. welcome to "the point." we're following tonight's breaking story out of france and many other stories. the point on the front electio to night, not just wayne for macron, a big loss for the far right and those hackers who tried to effect this election at the last minute. meanwhile, on health care in the united states, nobody dies from a lack of health insurance. a shocking quote and new this weekend as the fight increases

headed to capitol hill tomorrow. also, tomorrow marks a very key day in the russia inquiry. acting secretary will reveal warnings she says she issued about national security adviser mike flynn. that is all in our show. but the lead story here is france electing a new president with the ramifications for the united states, europe, as well as russia. the 39-year-old is a first time candidate who beat out france's dominant political party. an n. american terms this is the equivalent of a third party candidate beating the republican and democratic sikts. his win is cheered by european progressives. he backs the multilateralism of the eu. that is maureen le pen who cam panld against the concept of a utd europe. her father founded her father long known for the hard edge politics and bigotry. macron defeating le pen with two-thirds of the vote.

>> le pen's defiance could not obscure the message that french voters sent today. they said enough to the pop lift right global wave and they were clearly unmoved by that dramatic hack against macron in the waning days of the campaign. an attack that his own aides compared to the russia linked attacks on hillary clinton. in a moment we'll hear on all. this first we go to paris. our world news editor for the daily beast christopher dicky and a long time paris correspondent for rolling stone and "esquire" magazines. what is the scene there now with macron having finished the remarks? >> well, i think now is when the party really gets started.

i think there's a tremendous sense of relief among a lot of french people that they're not going to have the kind of upheavel that would have occurred and on many different levels if le pen had been elected. it has to be said there really wasn't that much enthusiasm for macron. he's going have to win the actual steady support of the people over the next months and years if he wants to bring france forward in the way that he's projecting. and if he fails to do that, then maureen le pen knows she'll have a good shot at the presidency five years from now. >> craig, for americans who have watched this and compared it to our own experiences, t hacking, the emphasis on immigration, the questionsf a global nature rick sheaing inside france as we look at these scenes and the celebrations, what did you think of le pen's alliance or connection to donald trump? she was not shy about citing him. >> yeah. first a correction.

not rolling stone and esquire, "the wall street journal" and bloomberg news. le pen has a strong base here. she'll be a thorn in the side of macron going forward on two fronts. first of all, the economy. the french economy is not in very good shape. over 56% of its gdp is generated by the government. that's a problem long term. the second big problem he has is defense and europe and trying to redefine france. remember, what macron says europe needs to be reformed. the last leader in the eu who said that was david cameron and there was brexit. there is a big feeling among le pen's boosters and even people who don't support le pen that the eu cannot be fixed. macron is going to have to go to brussels, try to fix it. at the same time, reconfigure

france. >> chris, any final thoughts on what the u.s. makes of this response at a policy level. they have very diffent rules there regarding when and how you report things? did that minimize in your view perhaps the impact of those last minute hacks? >> well, i think those last minute hacks, everybody thinks they came from russia and i spent a lot of time talking to the people in charge of the i.t. operations of the macron campaign about ten days ago. they had no doubt that they were being hacked by the russians. certainly by fancy bear, the front for the russian that's we all know about because it was involved in the dnc hack in such a major way. i don't think that ultimately that had much of an effect. partly because the defensive measures taken by the macron team were pretty good. i think they knew they were all hacked. they told me they were feeding a lot of false information to the

hackers. that probably confused them. it seemed like a desperate last money move before the election blackout. to dump these on him to do what? nothing. i think the dump itself was supposed to be the message. there is this idea that it's incriminating. you know, after the dnc hack and all that, the idea is if there is a hack like this, there must be wonderful nuggets in there that really embarrass people. it didn't matter. remember, france is not the united states. what for chan and the kremlin is was essentially a surrealistic attack on the french. remember, france and paris is pretty much the birthplace of surrealism. everyone here is kind of laughing at this. i think it is incorrect to equate the hacking that took place here with the hacking that

happened in the united states. particularly the reaction of the public, everyone in france is ugng at this. >> right. >> i think that is more of the linkages. the body politics responds very different. two very different countries. thank you so much. we turn to our political panel with david corn from mother jones, eric mcpike, dpont for the independent journal and the national security council representative. nut in context. >> look, thanks for having me on. america typically has been a beacon to the world. but i think in this case there san argument to be made that we served adds a cautionary tale for the french people. the sound of le pen in today's election could well indicate that this populous movement has reached the high water mark. there is a very interesting analysis out there by the pollster nate silver that showed

since trump's he leection in november of last year, there have been six campaigns in europe featuring nationalist candidates. and all six of them since donald trump's election have underperformed their polling. i think it's quite possible that we're seeing voters in europe and france look westward and making and head together voting booths and making a determination this is not what they want in their home countries. >> david? >> what i find interesting and we can't compare what is happening there to what is happening in the united states because we're americans and we're pretty self centered. but in that instance you have macron. he was an outside candidate. he had been from the establishment. he had been economic minister, the socialist government, but he ran an outside anti-establishment candidacy. but not using hate or fear. in fact, he campaigned against hate and fear that he started being exploited by maureen le

pen and the national front. wait that trump was ab outsider and not really but acted as one, he took that outsider. but he also said we can come together and make the system work. and still be part of europe, have a positive vision. not dump on immigrants. and not exploit hate and fear. it was opposite of donald trump. it was very fascinating to watch. and i still think, you know, ned is right in what he said, but maureen le pen getting 35% of the vote is still something to worry about. >> especially when you look at the bigotry and anti-semitism that is under the history of the national front. and the fact that, you know, you had as many people pointed out, erin, the first time for france that you had the two nonmajor parties in the runoff. so while there might be a conservative benefit to the instirvegts, there is clearly an anti-establishment one. listen to le pen here directly invoking donald trump. >> translator: donaltrump has

made possible what was completely impossible. so it's sign of hope for those who cannot bear wild globalization. they say the policies that you maureen le pen have isolate you. but i feel less isolated to day because of the multipolar world defended by donald trump and also way teresa may and have lat mere putin. i have a feeling it's mrs. merkel who should feel isolated. >> what do you make of the larger strategic argument there, one that many american conservatives, you know, really sympathize with, the idea that there is a some sort of global solidarity in pushing back against what they call the globalists. >> right. and look, donald trump was very complimentary of mao roon le pen whereas president obama endorsed macron. want to push on the hacking you were talking about at the top of the segment with your other two guests. i think that story has been a little bit overlooked. it is going huge going forward. remember, macron will take office within the next week or

so. and then donald trump is heading to europe for the nato leader summit in about three weeks. macron will be there as well. this hacking story is very important. the hacking didn't have the desired infect about it hackers. macron still won. but it's still an incredibly important story because as if expected, the russians were behind it. this story is going to continue. i talked to a nato expert earlier this week who was saying, you know, donald trump need to talk about the russian hacking and say it' a problem. as you know, donald trump has been saying, you know this is a nonstory. but we have to see what macron says going forward now that we can get into the bottom of -- we can get to the bottom of this hacking story now that the election is over. it is still a huge, huge issue. >> david? >> i agree with that. i also think it's foolish to think that donald trump will say anything. he's had literally thousands of opportunities during the campaign and after the campaign

to decry the hacking ear. he's not going to do it. he wants to turn away from it. but i do think it's an important story. i don't think putin or the russian intelligence service if they were behind this hack are going to stop hacking. and we have macron, a lot of opportunities for an unstable political environment there. he is -- he invented a party. so there's a lot of opportunity for hackers to, you know, to screw things up for him and to make things really difficult for france. >> david and ned price on a busy evening. thank you for joining. beyond france swreshgs much more on the american politics and policy ahead. including a debate over donald trump's shifting talk on wall street and a special report on mike troip a bar thats is it is tapping the trump resistance.

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sunday, may 21st eight seven central only on abc. i know wall street. i know the people on wall street. some of the wall street guys don't want to talk to me anymore. we're going to tax wall street and get rid of certain things. goldman sachs, i know the guys at goldman sachs. i'm not going to let wall street get away with murder. wall street is caused tremendous problems for us. >> donald trump said he is willing to pick a fight with wall street and hammer the threat on the campaign trail. he revisited in office but the fight has not exactly arrived. they make it look like the guy outside bart that keeps saying hold me back while he pretends to be tough. here the tough talker. >> it's a global power structure that is responsible for the economic decisions that have robbed our working class, stripped our country of its wealth, and put thatoney into the pockets of a handful of

large corporations and political entities. >> but here's the record, the trump administration watering down regulations for wall street pass after the crash, filling his administration with bankers from goldman sachs at treasury, the economic council and the national security council. and now proposing a tax plan that would move benefits from the middle class up to the rich, especially the ultra rich who pay the estate tax and the same tax bracket of mega donors that trump says he doesn't need. >> goldman sachs, i know the guys at goldman sachs stleshgs total, total, total control over him. just like they have total control over hillary clinton. they have total. but they have no control this very no control over donald trump. i don't want their money. i don't need their money. >> take the comments about the talk about wall street? he many a meeting with bloomberg news which is a conduit to the street.

he told them now he is considering embracing a potentially progressive plan to crack down on big banks, the depression era rule which limits the gambling they're allowed to do. i'm looking at that right now trump received breaking up the banks in a 30-minute oval office interview. there's some people that want to go back to the old system so we're going to look at. that the markets heard that tough talk and nye gyrate ford 14 minutes before they figured out it was no big deal as "the new york post" recounted. solt words about wall street him pact on the street. and this is a man who says he knows words. >> i went to an ivy league school. i know words. i have the best words. >> are these just words though? republicans used to run on defending wall street and govern are for wall street. which proved someone unpopular lately. has donald trump found a better political approach, talk sbhak wall street, scare the marketed for a hot minute and then in the end, yes, still govern for wall street. i'm joined by former senat

democratic council denni keler who runs the wall street refo group better markets, richard farley, a wall street attorney and author of the book "wall street." dennis, is it just talk? >> well, you know, people forget, i'm glad you reminded your audience, donald trump was the most anti-wall street presidential candidate since fdr in the 1930s. and he has forgotten all of that since he got into office both with what he said for policies and the people he appointed. so one thooz believe, given the people he is surrounding himself with and given what president trump has said for policies as to wall street which he has embraced across the board that if he starts talking about a new glass steeg will, it's not going to be a glass stiegel that people really want. it won't protect main street from wall street. it may well be as we warned a

glass stiegel that works well for goldman sachs because it could eliminate goldman sachs or diminish goldman sachs toughest competition from j.p. morgan chase, city bank and the other big banks because goldman sachs would make them divide their business up and it's a divided strategy if you're goldman sachs. so good news for goldman sachs, not good news for main street. >> richard? >> i'm not sure donald trump knows what he means when he says a new glass stiegel. fit resembles what is in the war e envetter bill, it won't accomplish very much either in terms of shrinking the sizest financial institutions which i don't sthi a good thing or in terms of changing the activity that can be done with consumer departments. when it was eliminated in 1999, that didn't really change what banks could do either. i think taking a step back and saying what would reinstitute a glass stiegel actually do, it

would prevent banks being under common ownership with investment banks. >> another way to say it is that more rules to protect consumers deposits would be better for people that are not gamblers. >> that's exactly right. reinstituting glass stiegel doesn't change what banks can do with deposits that are insured by the fdic. secondly, what we've learned from this administration a little over 100 days is that there is some challenges with being able to govern competently. and so even if he talks tough, we know that we should be watching what he does and any attempt to institute a 21st century glass stiegel wou be dead on arrival in a replican house. >> this administration and this

president has said repeatedly that they're going to get rid of financial reform and they're going to unleash the banking sector in wall street in particular. so nobody should believe anything that they say they're going to do on behalf of consumers and vestors who are main street. that is .1. .2 is taking down glass stiegel had a an impact on super sizing the banks and the four biggest banks in 2008 were the result of merging and consolidating 44 banks from 1998 to 2008. they were super sized. they were highly leveraged. they became fragile and blew up. so bringing this back will not solve all problems. but bringing back the real glass stiegel act will ensure protected deposits from being used as leverage. >> you cannot use the ensured deposits and the original

glass-steagall act were never chafrpged. can you not leverage off that through affiliated transactions. those provisions of the original glass-steagall act are still if place. >> you have to see where they used $350 billion of ensured deposits on a propriety airy trade that was a trillion dollars. they used to ensur-- >> that's that has nothing to do with glass-steagall. >> that is different. that is different. >> it is not different. >> it most certainly s. >> that rule limits what banks can do with ensured deposited, glass-steagall does not. >> strong emotions when it comes to money. >> i care about acura sichlt remember, watch what he does, not what he says. watch what the markets did, right you? said there is a little hiccup. they're not really -- they're not taking him seriously at his word. the one game changing thing that can change then tire conversation is if there is another financial crisis.

>> the biggest point is that markets which have all the reason to pay attention don't believe donald trump anymore when he talks wall street. that is telling. thank you for your expertise. >> thank you. >> coming up, we have a preview of sally yates hearing tomorrow and i'll speak to the familiar will have the 15-year-old boy that was shot by police. later, we have something different than i mentioned. a visit to a new york bar where activists say they're responding to donald trump on a local level. >> i had a lot of angst and anger and despair after the election. and we're trying to find a way to turn it into something more positive. and this is what i do. i own bars. i work overtime when i can get it.

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dog chow's been a part of my family's life for over 40 years. my grandfather made it and now i'm making it. as a micro-biologist i ensure that dog chow leads with high quality ingredients. welcome back. accountability for police shootings. this week three different cases put police shootings in the spotlight if police used excessive deadly force, is it normal for them to be prosecuted? [ beep ] >> that's footage there from louisiana where federal prosecutors concluded an

investigation into that incident, two police officers killing out in sterling. the prosecutors announced there is no charges. the officers held him down and shot him to death which led many to question whether deadly force was necessary. the officers though did find a loaded gun in sterling's right pocket after they shot him. it's the kind of threat which can legally justify deadly force. so the shooting may have been reckless or erroneous these prosecutors said this week but that doesn't mean it met the higher federal standard d they deliberately want to kill him for no reason? >> it is not enough to show that an officer acted recklessly or with negligence or by mistake, exercise bad judgement, use poor tactics, or even that officer escalated the situation where he could have dehe is ka latd it. those things are not violations of the federal criminal civil rights laws. >> so while those two officers

are free, another case this week showed there can be accountability in police shooting cases at least if the evidence is overwhelming. a citizen video caught michael shooting another man in the back when he was run ago way unarmed. it is illegal to use deadly force on someone who is fleeing. this they don't pose that threat. so they charged sh layinger under criminal rights statutes at his murder trial in charleston, south carolina, a jury deadlocked. prosecutors working on the retrial this week when he plead to violating scott's civil rights. he could face up to a lifetime in prison. two cases of police shootings, two very different outcomes. so what is normal? well, a former police officer philip stinson tracks every police shooting and prosecution in the country. since 2005, he found roughly thousands of police shootings every year, and cumulatively, only 81 officers face prosecutions and only 29 were ever convicted.

by those numbers prosecutions are not normal for police shootings. law enforcement advocates say most police shootings are either justified or judge ment calls and argue there shouldn't be a federal case for every time an officer discharges his or her weapon. with knows numbers in mind, dallas prosecutors did do something unusual heading into this weekend. they charged officer roy oliver with murder for shooting a 15-year-old jordan edwards in the head. the numbers suggest getting a conviction would be even more unusual. now up next, i'll be joined about it attorney for the family of jordan edwards and i will also speak to our power panel to discuss the broader issues involving the doj and how policing reform could change under donald trump. we also have a programming note for you. tune into msnbc at 8:00 p.m. eastern for special live coverage of barack obama returning to the public eye to receive a profile of courage award at the jfk library. chris matthews will host.

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r. officer roy oliver was charged on friday and he is now out on bail. joining me is s. lee merit. we'll have a broader discussion right afterward. your response to these charges? >> the family is extremely grateful that the district attorney's office for dallas county went forward with the specific charge of murder. we realize how difficult it is to get officers charged let alone convicted for murder. we believe it's the appropriate charge in thiscase. and so we're looking forward to seeing it through to a conviction. >> do you have any view of why this case may be proceeding differently than so many others? i just ran through the numbers about how this scenario is rare. >> jordan edwards was a special kid and this situation gives

itself to really for a lafk a better term the perfect victim. there's no evident whatsoever that the car he was in presented any harm or dafrpg torte law enforcement. nothing that jordan or anyone of his companions did contributed in any way to the shooting or even provoked the shooting. it seemed to be completely unjustified and because of that, and with the kind of kid a 15-year-old straight a student with a pristine background, i it this public demands injustice, demands that the appropriate charges go forth against the officer. >> final we do that point, in your experience litigating, how much does it matter that he apparently had almost no contact with these officers prior to being killed? >> it's important for the defenses that might be offered. its not necessarily important for the specific intent to obtain a murder conviction.

so that will be the burden of the district attorney or whatever prosecutor is available in the case. >> i want to thank you,r. mayor, for joining us and speaking aut this. i'm going to bring in now a civil rights activist and tracy mears from yale. you work on this area a lot, tracy. how does this compare to other cases? and speak about the level of what in law enforcement we call escalation, sort of shooting into a car rather than taking any other number of tactics. >> let's take that first. we know that many of the major policing agency as cross the country have absolutely pro hib prohibited shooting into cars that are moving away. and because of nut changes and policy dating back to the '7 o's in new york, many, many lives have been saved. i think when you're thinking about this kind of accountability, holding this officer accountable in terms of

a murder charge i think it's important to signal to people the kinds of acknowledge ment of justice claims as attorney general merit was just speaking about. >> what is your view here? >> yes. i think three things. one, remember that jordan edwards was the 105th black person killed by the fleece year and of 423 killed by the police, only jordan edwards and the amtrak police in kraug chaug where the officer was charged. the use ofs for policies in many cities and towns across the country has been cnged to prohibit firing into vehicles. bald springs is not one of those areas. it actually provides wide latitude for officers if they think there say threat. what is interesting about this case is we know the bald spring pd lied at the beginning and then lart it was cleared up. the car was actually moving away from the officer and not towards the officer. i'm happy that this officer is charged. again, justice would be jordan edwards 5:00 live today. this is at best accountability.

>> the initial police accounts saying they were driving aggressively and that being changed. although again, the case is by no means over. twint bring in the president of the dallas police association. we had some stechnical difficulty. i'm glad we have you here seated. is this typical or atypical of your work? >> i think it's first of all -- i want to say it's a tragic event. this young man was an exceptional person, exceptional young man. i have a young teenage son. i want to give my deepest condolences to the family. i think all of us in the police profession are looking at this and we're disturbed. >> go on. it is typical or not? >> no, i don't think it's typical. i think these actions here, i think it was appropriate for the district attorney to charge the officer. although i haven't seen the

video, from what i hear, i think the facts were very clear that action needed to be taken. and when it's very evident, then it should be swiftly. i think all police officers, or the majority of police officers want the bad apples to be held accountable because it makes the profession look horrible. >> tracy, speak to the credibility issue here because all the data shows and we just went through an election year with police saying where they're very different views in the communities about how much you can trust the police and trust what they say or whether they're there to protect you or not. cases tlik fall on racial lines. we're going to talk about one that is not on any black or white racial line. speak to that and the question of do people believe what the police say, what they write in a police report and the accounts if at least sometimes we see instance likes many where everything seems to shift under scrutiny. >> i think what you mean when you say credibility is this important level issue of the level of trust that public has

in police which, of course, is going to implicate the extent to which people believe what police write and police reports. he has already referred to the fact that the account changed. we made trust and legitimacy the key pillar of the recommendation wez made to the president with respect to police reform. whether or not we're blaming a police officer for this incident, the reality is that too many incidents of people losing their lives at the hand of police are occurring. regardless whether the shooting is in policy or out of policy. what really needs to happen is an acknowledgement that we need to change policy. and the structure of policing so that fewer people lose their

lives. >> take a listen to donald trump who has positioned himself or suggested that he has a special bond with law enforcement. >> as i travel the country, i had the great pref lidge to spend time with our amazing police officers who risk their lives every day to keep us safe. and i made a crucial pledge. we will always support and you people know that better than anybody, you know me, the incredible men and women of law enforcement. i will always have your back 100% like you've always had mine. >> one of the first things his doj has done which we've been covering on the point is push back on these federal oversight consent decrees for local departments. do you have a view of that? do you feel that he does have your back 100%? >> i think -- let's start with thdissent decrease. i think it's very problem at whik we start talking about universal force continuum. the problem is that different

areas of town, difference societies and different cities, the relationship between the public and the police vary. the dallas police department is top in the nation in our community outreach. it's very hard to train for every single incident. we had over 1.3 million contact last year and had less than ten police shootings. i'm not saying that any loss of life is a huge loss of life. what i am saying is that officers are out there doing the right thing. 99% of the time they're doing the right thing. having to make hard decisions and very short matter of time. it's very easy to look back on it when you're looking at video and saying that this officer could have done this and could have done that. but it's very difficult to put yourself in that position when you have seconds to make a crucial decision. now in saying that, officers should be held accountable for those decisions if they make poor, poor decisions where they had other alternatives and chose, chose not to take those other alternatives.

so i think we need to just put this in perspective a bit. this officer is going to be held accountable. and rightly i think he should. and i think not every situation is the same. >> i want to get your response to. that we have to fit in a quick break. this panel continues after the break. i'll also tell folks next hour there is one state that has a plan that could force some of donald trump's taxes to actually go public and ahead on the point, more of my visit to a new york city bar called coup where owners are using alcohol, they say, to funneled the trump resistance. >> what did he say? >> he says do what can you with what you have where you are which i think is the impetus we go by. he owns bars and that's what he knows how to do. this is what we know thou do and where we know how to do it. ou s.

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we got pulled over. >> i told you not to reach for it. i told him to get his hand up. >> he you told him to get his id, sir, his driver's license. oh, my god, please don't tell me he's dead. >> continuing our discussion here of some prominent police shootings. on wednesday the legal team for yanez, the officer charged in that shooting death i just showed part of the clip, they're asking for a change of venue. arguing that's the only way they can get that officer a fair trial. it's one manufacture cases that have caused many people to question how policing is occurring in the united states. i'm going to continue our panel and we're adding in philip stinson who i mentioned earlier for his statistical work. he is a criminologist at bowling green. we are rejoined by tracy mears from yale and deray mckessin.

professor, sints your first r first, your views on whether the data yet shows a shift in potential police accountability here? >> not at all. i think that what we've seen over the last several years is just a handful of officers each year are charged with murder or manslaughter resulting from an on duty shoot wrg an officer shoots and kills somebody. and if we take into account the fact that about 1,000 time a year on duty bloifrz shoot and kill smin while they're on duty, i don't think anything has changed as of yet. it's pretty much static in terms of the number of cases we're seeing each year. >> and you speak -- >> with that being said, most police shootings are -- >> i was going to ask you -- finish your point. but you're speaking as a former officer. so to complete your point and tellous you want to get into this area of tracking this data? >> well, most police shootings are found to be legally justified. so under the relevant legal standard, the officer had a

reasonable apprehension of a threat of serious bodily injury or deadly force. i ppose the problem with that standard is you could have a shooting that was found to be legally justified and yet completely unnecessary and inappropriate. as to how i got into this work about, 13 years ago i started to track police crimes. so crime by sworn law enforcement officers. and i'm still doing it. and we find in my research group about 1100 cases a year where police officers in this country is of the r arrested, everything from shoplifting and disorderly conduct and to murder and everything in between. the shootings data is part of that larger project. >> given your work with black lives matter as well as being a political candidate in your own right, i wonder how you feel about. this i think you and i know a lot of voters are under the impression that something is changing. but perhaps there is more attention on these cases but not more accord together professor's research, not more actual convictions. >> yes. and part of the research is correct. of the 423 people killed by the

police this year alone, only two officers had been convicted. which -- two officers have been charged which means a lot of people are going out there and not being held accountable for anything. there are that there are 18,000 police departments in the country. it is hard. with policing it's mostly a local issue with me fix it. meetings with president obama, the civil rights division. they were trying to think what can we do as a matter of policy. the consent decrees only exist when there has been a documented pattern or practice of wrong dog like in baltimore and ferguson. i'll respond to what the police representative said earlier about different standards in different communities. we think that's dangerous. there should be one standard for all communities. you shouldn't be able to hog-tie or choke-hold people in any community. you shouldn't be able to shoot into cars in any community. we think those standards are why

the police are able to do what they do. the police have to be held accountable. >> michael, would you like to respond? >> please. we talk about police officers being held accountable. we're doing just that. in dallas we almost every single patrol officer has a body camera. over patrol car has a camera on it now. you wouldn't have seen that years ago. we are a blue wall of silence. there is no blue wall of silence anymore. every single person out there has a camera. officers are going to work trying to do the right thing. they're talking about -- you had the one individual on a panel talking about shop-lifting. we are human still. you have individuals out there that still don't have the moral standard and go out and break laws. they should be held accountable. i think there is a huge difference when we hold statistics of off-duty instances and on-duty instances where they are attempting to do their job and in the process of doing

their job, either they do it because it's not pretty, because no violence is pretty, or they do it and make a mistake and need to be held accountable. >> let me give deray a chance to respond. >> you're on the record saying there is literally no blue wall of silence and that when people shop-lift they're just human? you are a police officer. when people shop-lift they're just human? >> yes. don't all -- there's doctors that shop-lift, lawyers that shop-lift, there's ceos and cfos that shoplift. you can't take the human element out of police work. if you try to do that you're also taking away empathy and sympathy and the possibility of discretion. there is way more officers -- in my 22 years being on the department, many times i have had my gun out and many times i have been justified in firing but i chose not to because that discretion was there and training was there, that i had been in that situation before and made the right decision. but that was only sometimes by

luck that i made the right decision. so we can sit here with a broad brush say that there is an epidemic of police misconduct, but i don't think that's true. i don't think the real true statistics will show that. >> to get tracy and the panel back in. before we move on i wanted to flag one more case that's barely gotten any attention. it's another fight over records in a texas case. they tasered 18-year-old graham dyer. he was on lsd. he died within hours. there was a graphic video showing him being stunned with a istaser. before we play the video, we warn you, these images may be disturbing. that's some of what emerged. his parents asked for the police records. they were denied, and it took three years to get ahold of the records because there is a texas

state law that says a police agency doesn't have to turn over records for incidents that don't result in a conviction. here there was no conviction or acquittal of dyer because he was dead and the records were kept confidential, kept from the family until they were able to file later lawsuits in federal court. we reached out to mesquite police department for comment. they said they could not because of pending litigation. this case hasn't gotten much attention, tracy, but we believe it should. parents who can't get information about a deceased son. your view of this and these laws that really seem to shield the police from oversight. >> these are the kinds of laws that undermine trust. i think that i would urge representatives of policing unions, if they're actually interested in collaborating with communities to support trust, not to double down on those kinds of laws. transparency is a key factor to supporting trust. we know that.

i just want to say something else about the accountability point, which is to say, if we only think about accountability in terms of bringing people to justice, charging them and convicting them when they've done something wrong, i think we're missing another important part of accountability, which is holding the profession accountable as a whole. one way to do that is, of course, having more training. another way to do that is about re-thinking those few seconds before there is an incident. deescalation means that you don't have only two seconds to think about what you're doing, you've actually slowed down the situation so that you have time to make the choice to save someone's life. but third, and maybe more importantly, policing actually needs to re-think the mission. so, as long as policing is concerned with a warrior mentality. >> right. >> focused on crime reduction, the proactive policing

approaches are going to lead to many, many incidents in which people have interactions that may end up in them losing their lives. and we just don't have to have that kind of policing. >> we are out of time in this hour. special thanks to tracy meeres. deray and phil stinson. we are just getting started on "the point." many new subjects in the next hour. the health care battle. what happens with obamacare replacement hitting a brick wall in the senate. former acting attorney general sally yates will break her silence on russia tomorrow and speak about michael flynn. and the innovative way new york city bar owners are funding the trump resistance and a plan to get donald trump's tax records in new york. on "the point" after the break. it's not how fast you mow...it's how well you mow fast.

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moves to the senate. about obamacare survive the fight ahead? on trump taxes, a plan in new york state that could force them public. we have a state legislature driving the effort here. everyone is getting ready for the bomb shell testimony. acting attorney general sally yates removed by the trump administration will break her silence about what she told the white house about national security adviser michael flynn. that's all ahead on what is a busy show. this is the eve of a big week in washington, the testimony on the russia inquiry, reaction to the french election and the brazen effort by russia-linked hackers to impact elections, the next step in a battle that could make or break donald trump's presidency, though, is health care. does this fight show that trump ultimately is all talk or that he's able to deliver? the white house sent out health secretary tom price to make the sale today. >> what i believe they're now recognizing is that this is a different and we believe a better way to cover individuals with preexisting illnesses and injuries because it allows for every single person to get the access to