there was no good time to do it, by the way. >> in your letter you said, i accepted their recommendation. so you had already made the decision? >> i was going to fire regardless of recommendation. he made a recommendation. he's highly respected. very good guy, very smart guy. the democrats like him, the republicans like him. he made a recommendation. but regardless of recommendation, i was going to fire comey. >> let me ask you about your termination letter to mr. comey. you write, i greatly appreciate you informing me on three separate occasions that i am not under investigation. why did you put that in there? >> because he told me that. >> he told you you weren't under investigation with regard to the russia investigation? >> i've heard that from others. >> was it in a phone call, did you meet face to face? >> i had a dinner with him. he wanted to stay dinner because he wanted to stay on. we had a very nice dinner early on. >> he asked for it? >> that dinner was arranged. i think he asked for the dinner. he wanted to stay on as the fbi head, and i said i'll consider, we'll see what happens, but we had a very nice dinner. and at that time he told me "you

are not under investigation," which i knew, anyway. when you're under investigation, you give all sorts of documents and feverything. i knew i wasn't under investigation, and i heard it at some committee level that i wasn't. then during a phone call he said it, and during another phone call he said it. so he said it once at dinner and then he said it twice during phone calls. >> did you call him? >> in one case i called him, in one case he called me. >> and did you ask him, am i under investigation? >> i actually asked him, yes. i said, if it's possible, would you let me know, am i under investigation? he said, you are not under investigation. >> but he's given sworn testimony that there is an ongoing investigation into the trump campaign and possible collusion with the russian government. you were the centerpiece of the trump campaign. >> all i can tell you is i know i'm not under investigation, me personally. i'm not talking about camcampai,

i'm not talking about anything else. i'm not under investigation. >> chris matthews, while we wait for sara sanders to take the podium at the white house, your reaction to this. each time we see it, we pick up different nuances, in fact. >> i think his hesitance to stick to the three times thing. he said, i heard it other ways. i didn't get asked for documents. if you really heard from comey three times he wasn't under investigation, he wouldn't even be reaching out for these pontoons he seems to be hanging onto, these other branches. he's obviously looking for a backup to what he said happened, but it's not clear it did happen. this is a little bit about secondary characteristics. lately he's come on this new thing of repeating every phrase twice. he doesn't really think people are believing him, so he says it again and again. he uses the same phrase twice each time he says something now. there is something going on. >> katy tur, you've covered this

president more than any of us since you started the first day campaign announcement. >> donald trump hasn't changed. he's still the same person running for president as he is now in the white house. he's exactly the same person. this is only going to widen the rift between the white house and the intelligence community. listen, this has been ongoing for some time. remember back a few months ago when he tweeted that it was like nazi germany, talking about the intelligence community, worried about how he was being spied on. the public opinion polls show that there is still quite a bit of confidence in the fbi when it comes to american institutions. my curiosity is where that stands now when it comes to republicans. if they go in the field and another poll is taken, do republicans suddenly find that they don't have confidence in the fbi? listen, and whether or not republicans in congress decide they're going to stand by this

president. there's three things at play here. number one, donald trump is a republican president. he's going to help them get their agenda done, even though it's not going so well right now, number one. number two, federal judgeships. he's going to be putting conservative judges in places. that's one of the reasons republicans are not going to abandon him quite yet. and number three, nobody really knows how this is going to play among the american electorate. there is a lot of distrust when it comes to polling. after all, donald trump did win the election. there were so many things that happened during the campaign that should have torpedoed his candidacy. it did not. so republicans are wary to pile on -- this is from conversations i've had from multiple high-level republicans and staffers in congress -- they're wary to pile on because they don't know what this president can survive. there is a whole new set of rules, there is no political rabbit here. donald trump has defied everything. is he going to do it again? >> let's bring in president obama's security council, nbc

national security analyst and former cia analyst. ed, what you heard today about those exchanges as the president recounts them between the fbi director and the president, what strikes you about how unusual that was? >> well, andrea, back to chris' point. i hate to say this, but i'm not sure we can take the president at his word in his recollection of the events. what struck me was the notion that director comey would reach out to the president asking for a dinner to ask to stay on. the fbi director has a statutory 10-year term, so it would take an effective move on the part of the president to remove him. it is not the obligation nor the need on the part of the fbi director to ask to stay on. the other point, and matt miller and others have spoken to this, but it is entirely inappropriate for the president to ask if he is the subject of an investigation. in the obama white house, there

was an inviolable wall between how they conduct themselves. there would be some allowed on security issues, but when it came to the white house, and this is not irrelevant to the obama white house, but if there ever was an investigation around the president and those in the white house, that would be completely, entirely off limits. >> e.j. joining me now as well. e.j., you have watched these administrations, these white houses, republican and democratic and law enforcement as well. have you ever seen anything like the exchanges and the description of the fbi director that the president made to lester holt in this interview today? >> and the answer is, obviously, no. you're absolutely right. when i heard him say he's a showboat, he's a grandstander, i had two thoughts. one is, boy, the president doesn't have much self-awareness, but number two -- >> e.j., i hate to interrupt you, but we need to go to the briefing with sara sanders right

now. we'll come right back. >> the president had lost confidence in director comey. after watching comey last week, the president was inclined to remove him. he talked to the deputy attorney general about possibly removing him. the deputy attorney general sent his written recommendation to the attorney general and the attorney general sent his written recommendation to the president. hopefully that clears up certain things. with that i'll take your questions. >> why did lester holt interviewing the president made certain remarks? why did the president think general comey was a showboat and a grandstander? >> i think based on numerous appearances he made, and i think it's probably pretty evident in his behavior over the last year or so with the back and forth --

i think that it speaks pretty clearly. those words don't leave a lot of room for interpretation, so i think it's pretty clear what he meant. >> in any of these three conversations the president had with james comey, he said one was a dinner and two phone calls. was that since january 20 or when? >> that's what i understand, but i don't have exact dates on when those phone calls took place. >> two parts of the comey question regarding the interview the president just gave. first of all, isn't it inappropriate for the president of the united states to ask the fbi director directly if he is under investigation? >> no, i don't believe it is. >> one of these conversations, the president said, happened at a dinner where the fbi director, according to the president, was asked to stay on as fbi director. the fbi director saying he wants to keep his job and the president is asking whether or not he's under investigation.

. others have been commenting on it for the last hour. no, i don't see that as an issue. >> i asked you directly yesterday -- >> pump it up to 3 now, i think. >> i asked you directly yesterday if the president already decided to fire james comey when he met with the deputy attorney general and attorney general. you said no. also the vice president of the united states said directly, the president acted to take the recommendation of the deputy attorney general to remove the fbi director. sean spicer said directly, it was all him, meaning the deputy attorney general. now we learn from the president directly that he had already decided to fire james comey. why were people giving answers that just weren't correct? were in you the dark? was the vice president misled again? >> i know you would love to report that we were misled --

>> but it's untrue. >> hold on, jonathan. i let you read out every one of those statements. unless you want to trade places, i think it's my turn now. i think it's pretty simple. i hadn't had a chance to have the conversation directly with the president to say. i had several conversations, but i wasn't going to ask that question directly, had you ever made that decision. i went off the information you had right before i walked in today, and he laid it out very clearly. he already laid out that decision. he's been thinking for morls. wednesday was the final straw that pushed him and the recommendation he got from the deputy attorney general just was the right one. >> was the president in the dark, too? >> nobody was in the dark, jonathan. you want to create this false

narrative. if we want to talk about contradicting statements and people who were maybe in the dark, how about the depp kratmo? do you want to talk about them. harry reid said comey should resign and be investigated by the senate. senator chuck schumer said, i don't have confidence in him anymore. senator bernie sanders said it would not be bad for the american people if jim comey were to resign. debra wasserman schultz said she thought comey was unable to serve in a neutral, credible way. valerie jarrett reportedly urged the president to fire comey. just yesterday maxine waters said hillary clinton would fire comey. if you want to talk about people in the dark, our story is consistent. the president is the only person that can fire the director of the fbi. he serves at the pleasure of the president. the president made the decision. it was the right decision. the people in the dark today are are the democrats. they want to come out, they want

to talk about all these -- they love comey and is how great he was. look at the facts. the facts don't lie. their statements are all right there. i think it's extremely clear that -- and frankly, i think it's kind of sad. in washington we finally had something that i think we all should have been able to agree on, and that was that director comey shouldn't have been at the fbi. but the democrats want to play partisan games, and i think that's the most glaring thing being left out of all your process stories. john roberts. >> sara, you said from the podium yesterday that director comey had lost the confidence of the rank and file of the fbi. on capitol hill today, the acting director of the fbi andrew mccabe contradicted with that. what led you in the white house led you to believe that he had lost confidence in the rank and file of the fbi when the acting director said it's just the opposite. >> i can sfreek my own personal

enkwournts t encounters. i'm sure there are people who are disappointed, but i've certainly heard from a large number of individuals, and that's just myself, and i don't even know any people in the fbi. >> about what you were saying about the democrats. clearly they didn't like james coming too much after the announcement that he was reopening the investigation into clinton's e-males. their. >> we were both. when he said there's been no impedimentment to the investig, and any investigation that was taking place on monday is still taking place today. i think that's another sad story by the democrats that they're trying to peddle. >> thank you. another comment from the hearing today, the acting director

attorney general -- i'm sorry, mccabe said he thinks there was russian meddling in the election to be highly significant. in the past the president said the investigation was a hoax and he's questioning recently whether it maybe wasn't russia, it might have been china. does the president consider this investigation to be highly significant? >> look, i think he would love nothing more than for this investigation to continue to its completion. i think one of the reasons that the hoax component is the collusion component. that has been the false narrative that you guys have been pushing for the better part of a year. i think that's the piece he is repeatedly talking about being the hoax. >> but the threat of national security, does he take that seriously? does he think that's significant? >> of course he takes national security seriously.

to even hint that he doesn't, i think, is to misunderstand this president completely. from the very moment he stepped onto the campaign stage to the moment he took the oath as president, he's talked about national security. he made that one of the biggest parts of the administration. you saw tom bossert talking about national security, whether it's securing the border, whether it's protecting people abroad here. >> during the election, was it a threat to national security? >> i haven't had the chance to ask him about that. i think we're waiting for the final conclusion of the investigation. >> or he doesn't know? >> i think anytime we have someone interfering in our election, that would be considered a problem, and i think the president would certainly recognize that. matthew? >> two questions. first, as has been mentioned, vice president pence yesterday said the firing was based on the recommendation of the attorney general and deputy attorney general. we know now that that's not

true. was the vice president misled again, or did he mislead the american people? >> i believe i've answered that question. >> if you have, i don't think i caught it. because the vice president said yesterday that the president chose to accept and support the decision of the deputy attorney general and attorney general. >> he certainly accepted the deputy attorney -- that doesn't mean that he still wouldn't accept his recommendation. they're on the same page. like, why are we arguing about the semantics of whether or not he accepted it? they agreed. i'm not sure how he didn't accept the deputy attorney general's recommendation when they agreed with one another. >> if i may switch topics slightly. if the president knew he was going to do this, why ask for those memos to begin with? why not just fire comey? why have these memos put out and then explain that he did it because of the memos but then say he was going to do it either way? i'm confused as to why we even got those memos.

>> i think he wanted to get the feedback of the deputy attorney general who the director of the fbi reports to. again, it further solidified the decision that he had made. the only person that can fire comey was the president. he made that decision. it was clearly the right one as evidenced by all of the kmenlts by both house and senate, democrats, republicans and many people within the fbi. . did this happen at 12:01 or 12:02? did he fire him because he wore a red tie or a blue tie? he fired him because he couldn't do the job. this shouldn't be a complicated process. the president knew director comey was not up to the task. he decided he wasn't the right person in the job. he wanted someone that could bring credibility back into the fbi that has been lost the last several months. the president made that decision. he made it, he moved forward, it was the right one. i don't think the back and forth

makes that much difference. zmz did you call on me? >>, some democrats say that comey they're questioning why now? >> i think i've answered this. i hate to, again, just keep repeating myself, but we're kind of getting lost on the same questions here. he had decided that he wasn't fit. there's never going to be a good time to fire someone, whether it's on a tuesday or a friday. >> but why now? >> he decided he wanted to give director comey a chance. he did, and he felt like he wasn't up to the task. >> monday sean spicer, when he was at the podium, he said after the testimony with clapper and yates, he talked about there was no collusion, but he also said

we need a timeline for shoeing on the. >> i've said that we want it to come to its completion. we want it to continue until fin tishld, which we would like them to consume so we can focus on the things that most americans care about people are more impressed with the story than the people we talk to every day. we are following this because we want it to be completed but we also wanted to completed with integrity. i think that's one of the, that the decision the president made was the right one, because i think it adds in credibility and integrity back to the fbi where frankly a lot of people were questioning this.

>> we now know the president chose a grandstand. how important is it that the fbi director not. i think the main factor they're looking for is that they're loyal to the justice system, they're loyal to the american people. this president is looking for somebody who can come in that is independent and has the support, i think, across the board, whether it's republicans, democrats, members of the fbi and certainly the american people. it wasn't just one thing that caused the president to make this decision. a large part of why he made this decision was because he didn't feel like director comey was up to the job. it was just an erosion of confidence that he had in his ability to carry out the tasks that needed to be done. he's looking for somebody who can do that. jordan? >> two questions.

first i wanted to follow up on what jon asked about the rank and file of the fbi. the only thing the acting director has on the rank and file? >> i'm not getting into a back and forth on who has a better handle. i've heard from multiple individuals who are very happy about the president's decision. i know that it was the right one. people we talked to also believe tchls. >> could you walk us through how a from either r. can you tell us who did that and got those photographs out. >> a foreign minister or head of state. both individuals have official photographers in the room. we had an official photographer in the room, as did the -- >> usually you have independent media and the u.s. is typically

invited into those meetings. why didn't it happen in this case? >> it varies, actually. not always, particularly sometimes the protocol when it is not the head of state and prior to the president meeting with the head of state, that wouldn't also be followed. >> does the president think he's being investigated? >> he doesn't. >> does he expect to be? >> i'm not going to guess. major? >> this is the tyanything that the president, that's a general aspect of the protocol that's usually fired. two, tone sure there is no confusion about political interference or any kind or the public appearance and protection

on the standard procedure. you just said. why is it appropriate if thaet not. >> we've talked to several to weigh in on this and they said they're not breaking the protocol. it's not what i think. look at the people who followed up the interview. there were multiple attorneys who came on after and specifically stated that it was not inappropriate and it wasn't wrong for the president to do so. so, again, i can only base it off -- i'm not an attorney. i don't even play one on tv. but what i can tell you is what i've heard from legal minds and people that actually are attorneys, and that's their opinion. so i have to trust the justice system on that fact, too. >> would you say based on the experience that you and sean and his kmuktsz had wednesday and

remember. can you relay those jobs to the american public about what happen happened. you seem to take such a prolonged piece, puck. look, we were given the information we could have at that time. we took the information we had as best we had it and got it out to the schoolchildren tomorrow if he could. >> when you have that kind of conversation with the president, you don't get more accurate than that. >> with that standard. >> look, major, i'm not going to get into a back and forth.

we have to have like a direct quote every single time. in this prom. you guys want to get lost in the process. >> i don't want you getting all these answers in the process. >> it's very simple. the president fired james comey. he stands by his decision as do the rest of us. two questions. back in, i think, october of last year, the former president was highly criticized by members of the fbi and other folks outside the fbi who are making comments on television that were sort of suggested that he had an opinion how the hillary clinton e-mail case should go.

a lot of criticism dair how with what this president did the in. it doesn't go far beyond what president obama did, and to major's point, how can you argue regardless of maybe some pundits on tv, and otherwise how do we know the president was trying to influence an active investigation that's still going on? >> i think the president is encouraging this investigation to be complete so we can move forward. we've been as compliant as possible throughout the entire process. we will continue to do so. nobody wants this investigation to go forward and complete and end with integrity more than the president. >> but people clearly know which way he wants it to come out, right? >> on the right side.

he i think he's ready for the rest of you guys to understand that as well. >> just to follow up on the fbi, i think -- and i'm not trying to be overly combative. fbi officials. >> really? so are we talking -- >> between e-mail, text messages, absolutely. >> imt to get it into a numbers game. i have. they said they're very happy with the president's decision. i don't know what else i can say. >> there's a report in the wall street journal. the deputy journal asked his

white house counsel to correct the version of events coming out initially after the coal slowing. or 28 hours? >> i'm not wa wear of a specific ask for a question. we've attempted to cash out of their all along. there were fmplt. we'll address that again in the opening today. >> did the president know that comey had sought more resources for an investigation before he made his decision? >> no, and i also think based on what i've seen, the department of justice has also pushed back and said that's not he can rat. many. >> did you know it was going to fire james comey.

>> what about his attorney though, though. the frnl. he wasn't the one that carried out, and to try, i think, to. >> remember by the school, wednesday certainly expedited that, the director's testimony last wednesday. then getting the remgts from the deputy attorney general i think. >> just to clarify one thing you said, after this president has encouraged the spain up to russia. how does he over occur twith

this? >> look, we want this to come to its conclusion to its entirety. we think removingbi director james comey is a step in that direction. thank you, guys. >> a lot of tough questions for the president. i think the heart of that briefing was the questions about what the president said to lester holt in his exclusive interview with nbc and how those questions and answers developed all new information from what we had before. particularly about who made the decision to fire the fbi director. in the interview with lester holt which we'll show you in a minute or so, he said he clearly made the decision. but all that came out in the white house push was, no, the deputy attorney general was the one who, in fact, influenced the decision, in fact, originated it and trump was simply, as he put it, accepting the resignation by rod rosenstein.

then he said he made that decision before rod rosenstein even entered the room. there is also an attempt to really bring down the relationship of comey, meaning to fire him. there are other things we are unfamiliar with which is to discredit him as an individual. very strong language by the president in bringing down the reputation today. there is a lot of pushback by the president today against the news. the white house forcing to defend today. the comments of the white house. once again i'm fired by james comey and he was not vurnd. comey said, we're not investigating you. we'll have to see whether that's true or not. let's watch a little bit of the interview today. no, he's a showboat, he's a grandstanter. if you take a look at the fbi a

year ago, it was in virtual turmoil. less than a year ago. it hasn't recovered from that. >> monday you met with the deputy attorney general rod rosenstein. >> right. >> did you ask for a recommendation? >> what i did is i was going to fire comey, my decision. >> you had made the decision before they came there? >> i was going to fire comey. there's no good time to do it, by the way. >> in your letter you said i accepted their recommendations. you had already made the decision. >> i was going to fire regardless of decision. he made the decision, very smart guy, but despite recommendation i was going to fire mr. comey. >> le met read your termination letter. you wrote, i greatly appreciate you defending me on three separate occasions.

why did you put that in there? >> because he investigated passion? >> i had dinner. it was arjd, but i think he asked for the dinner. he wanted to stay on as fbi director. we had a very nice dinner and he told me, you're not under investigation, which i knew, in away. when you're under investigation, you're giving all sorts of documents. and i heard it was stated at some committee level that i wasn't. >> so that didn't come dreblgy from you. >> then during a phone call he said it. >> did you call him? >> in one case i called him, in one case he called me. >> did you ask if you were under investigation?

>> i said, if possible, will you let me know if i'm under investigation. he said, you are not under investigation. >> but he's given sworn testimony that there's an ongoing investigation into the trump campaign examiand possibl collusion with the russian government? >> i know i'm not under investigation, me personally. i'm not talking about campaigns, i'm not sharing that investigation. >>. >> let's start with who was the official cause of the firing of james comey. . it all came from the deppty attorney general. that's who came here without a rems and. according to comey.

the questions were she didn't ask the right questions in the prebriefing. >> set it aside with sara huckabee sanders who said she didn't have a briefing with the president yesterday. look what happened on tuesday night when sean spicer came out with a paper statement, it came on with the letters the president sent to james komif this occurred, based on the clear recommendation of james comey no matter what that recommendation had said. there's no way. essentially got a electric tour from sarah huckabee sanders talking about contradiction from democrats. this is maneuvering, we've seen, obviously not answers as to see this woint why in add rat nfgts

on tonight the. the story has changed and it's not clear why. >> the next question that's been brought, because of mr. mccabe being brought in as an fbi director. they said they were not trusting turmoil shoulder a turmoil. that's what he said. >> the national security team said as well sarah huckabee sanders said today and reiterated she's spoken with a large number, as she characterizes it, of a large number of people in the fbi who do not believe they have faith in james comey. she testified to that with a reporter who simply answered the question with "really?" . they said they lost confidence in james comey. let me step back a moment here.

there was an implication that reporters were getting caught up. until they had sat down with lester holt, president trump had hunkered down. he wasn't making public appearances. we hadn't seen them rough because it's sitting for days. the white house said he's prepping for the meeting next week. it's people who work for the press office and the jar nneka. it's important to know that the information you're getting is accurate. >> let's get to the third question which i think is a tough one, the president said in his interview with lester holt, and we'll see it tonight on other have for him to do. he also reports some of the collateral information, we all know, upthat. r i that he wasn't under

investigation. short of getting a statement from comey himself, how are we going to find out if that's true or not? >> get it from comey himself. the president would say, yeah, i'm not sure there's much more to it at that point. >> it occurred, what do you think, in two phone calls about whether this is discussed. you heard the white house say, in their view, they do not believe that is inappropriate. >> it certainly seems a strange conversation the way he replays it, anyway. thank you, hallie jackson at the white house. capitol hill. mike, what do you think? i guess everybody who has been in. you wake from the party rkts empower. >> at this point it's become condition to let the first wave

of. until ty make a firm commitment, and i think you see a lot of republicans trying to figure out which way the wind is blowing on this one, if it appears to have legs and it appears to have very strong legs. in the interview lester holt had with president obama, we heard a couple things. he was asked whether he, as the acting director, would ever go to the president and warn him or inform him one way or another if he was under investigation or not. mccabe said he would not do that. secondly, we heard from both the chairman, the republican chairman and the vice chairman of this committee in reaction to the response that president trump gave to lester holt calling jim brokeshounder not only from the democrat but the republican as well. >> i put out a statement the night of the director's

swearing. i found him to be one of the most ethical, upright, straightforward individuals i've had the opportunity to work with. >> i trusted jim comey, and i echo what the chairman said in terms of his willingness to work with our committee. i thought he had made some mistakes last fall but i never called for his resignation. i thought he was a straight shooter. and frankly, i'm offended at the president's comments today. this is a continuing pattern of disrespecting the men and women who serve in our intelligence community. >> and chris, on top of all that, we had a surprise visit from the deputy attorney general at the center of this controversy, rod rosenstein met with warner and burr here in the heart building on capitol hill. according to warner and burr, he told them that he would take the proposal proposal, to a point of special counsel, he would take that into consideration. chris? >> nbc's justice correspondent pete williams joins us right now.

pete, this is tough because there are some who have never been here before, where trump is basically taking on his own staff saying, i made the decision to fire comey. i made it before my attorney general made it to deputy attorney general. i was going to do it having to put out a statementment. it's hard to see a press for this kind of situation. >> well, in terms of white house messages not getting out clearly, i'm sure there are lots of presidents for that. but i take your point on something of this magnitude. the way it's been described to me, chris, in the last 24 hours, the way the justice department yesterday that they and the white house were lashing it together, the way they described it was the president came to a meeting on monday having already decided that james comey should

be fired. as a matter of fact, sarah sanders said yesterday that he had reached this conclusion since shortly after he was elected. for several months he had been thinking this. at the same time, then, he calls in the attorney general and the deputy attorney general and says, according to these officials, i've decided that james comey ought to go, and according to these officials, rod rosenstein said, i had reached the same conclusion myself. then the president said, well, i would like to see your thoughts on paper. so rod rosenstein then writes this memo which is delivered to the white house the next day, which the president uses it as part of the justification for firing comey, or perhaps initially exclusively the justification for firpg comb. they had each come to this meeting having independently colluded that james comey should be fired. >> let me ask you about protocol

that's been used as a term of art. what about the statement by the president today, the three times. it was in the letter he put out after he fired comey. the three times comey told him that he, the president of the united states, was not under investigation in regard to the russian investigation. first of all, would he have asked such a question of a guy who was, according to trump, applying for renomination. if you all, he was entitled to a full term. he said. trump asked or railroad you investigating me? the whole thing seems improper in these kind of conversations. >> the president said he asked the question twice more during two separate phone calls that followed the dinner. so i can tell you, i talked tie number of prosecutors, former government officials about this question. first of all, is it an attempt

to interfere with an investigation to ask, am i under investigation? and the universal answer i've gotten from the people i've talked to, understanding that lawyers -- you know, i'm sure other lawyers will disagree, but the ones i've talked to, former career prosecutors, say no, that there's nothing, for want of a better term, illegal about that. it's not an attempt to influence an investigation. whether it is wise, whether it is a politically good thing to do, whether it's smart politics or policy, that's a separate question. would it be considered interference with an investigation? the answer appears to be no. but to get really technical for a second, there is a memorandum that's currently in eect tha was signed by eric holder when he was attorney general. and the way these things work is, unless another attorney general changes it, it remains in effect, that says all employees of the justice department, and that would include everybody at the fbi, including the director, are only

supposed to communicate with the white house through the white house counsel's office, through the deputy, attorney general or the attorney general. so as a purely technical matter, if james comey had been following that memo when he got the question, he would say, i'll tell the deputy attorney general and the attorney general. they can tell your white house counsel and your white house counsel can tell you. that's a matter of how mr. comey answered the question. >> because i've grown up with the notion that a senator, for example, if congress were to call a regulatory agency and ask about a regulatory matter, that would be seen as influence and improper. that's why i'm surprised this is the accepted manner. let's take a look at the bit more of the exclusive interview lester holt had today around noon with the president. >> let me ask you about your termination letter to mr. comey. you write, i greatly appreciate you informing me on three separate occasions that i am not under investigation. why did you put that in there?

>> because he told me that. >> he told you you weren't under investigation with regard to the russian investigation? >> i've heard that from others. >> was it in a phone call, did you meet face to face? >> ai had a dinner with him. he wanted a dinner, he wanted to stay on. i think he asked for the dinner. that dinner was arranged. he wanted to stay on as the fbi head. i said i'll consider it and see what happens. we had a very nice dinner and at that time he told me, you aren't under investigation. when you're under investigation, you give them all sorts of documents and everything. i knew i wasn't under investigation. and i heard at some committee level that i wasn't. then during a phone call he said it, and then during another phone call he said it. so he said it once at dinner and then he said it twice during phone calls. >> did you call him? >> in one case i called him, in one case he called me. >> did you ask him, am i under investigation?

>> i actually asked him, yes. i said, if it's possible, would you let me know, am i under investigation? he said, you're not under investigation. >> but he's given sworn testimony that there is an ongoing investigation into the trump campaign and possible collusion with the russian government. you were the center piece of the trump campaign, so wase being truthful? >> i know i'm not under investigation. me personally. i'm not talking about campaigns, i'm not talking about anything else. i'm not under investigation. accuracy matters. actually, "new york times" correspondent glen thrush. glen, let's talk about reporting you did today at the paper, and that's about the mood of the president. i think a lot of people would question what we just saw there, about the president's very particular description of three conversations he said he had with james comey. of course, these are conversations one on one and we're going to have to wait to

hear from comey, the former director who he fired yesterday, and perhaps contemporary effects of firing comey. the president feels under tremendous pressure now. he didn't like what he heard over the weekend, but he doesn't really care about opinion. he doesn't care about some left wing or critical man or woman attacks him. he cares about the factual reporting in the newspapers, especially your newspaper. he cares about the behavior and stamina of public officials like sally yates and james comey. he doesn't like their independence. he doesn't like the independence of the. >> leading the invtigaon o pi. you just sdibd abo a half

dozen reasons why he wanted to get rid of comey. our reporting yesterday q a bun bunch. chris, i just want to ask you, have you ever heard of a president publicly discussing in this very informal way, asking an fbi director whether or not he was personally under investigation? why did he keep pursuing that question? i think that is a fundamental predicate that we need to establish. why was president trump obsessed with this notion of the fbi investigating him? why was -- >> it doesn't take a genius to figure out the motives. one would be to intimidate him to not doing that. i don't think he's capable even as president. number two is to establish a public record of a conversation where he can say, he told me i wasn't under investigation. that's a common event in public life to get a documented moment, then you can say -- this is in watergate and everything i've tried to read history of.

someone likes to get everything documented. he can say i spoke to him and i asked him three times. we have to wonder if he did talk to him three times. why wouldn't he answer the question? question? >> there have been reported discussions with him. the one thing i would dispute, over the past 24, 48 hours indicated wasn't comey who requested the dinner with trump. either it was mutually arranged or trump requested it. it is extraordinary that he would contradict not just sarah huckabee sanders. the vice president of the united states, chris, yesterday stood in a semi circle of reporters on capitol hill and told the same inaccurate version of events that sarah related. sarah huckabee sanders said she had not walked the the president. did vice president pence tell an

inaccurate version to reporters without speaking to the president? and here's the question. who told both of them if it is the same person, that version of events. >> what role did the very stellar testimony, effective testimony of sally yates, who was fired as acting attorney general, before the senate the other day, what power did that have to play in trump's decision to fire comey? do we know the tick tock? >> i think trump feels cornered. our reporting showed that he entered in a very sour state of mind. and one of the things he really hated, what sounds to be sort of a precipitating spark, was comey saying that he felt, quote, slightly nauseous at the prospect that the fbi would have swung the election to donald trump. he took really personally. as with everything, it is a combination of personal motives.

everything is personal to this president and his own interests in this investigation. >> thank you very much. you're doing a fantastic job. for more now, katy tur, you were part of the war. i know you covered him. he was awful to the press. maybe we disagree in what we're seeing here. i'm not as close to it as you are. i think the pressure built up over the weekend. wasn't just the usual trump. you say it is trump as trump has always been. >> i think you're right to say the pressure is believe. there's a lot of couldn't fusing explanations in the white house. the reasoning behind this seems to mutate by the day if not by the hour, until donald trump comes out and says no, ultimately, it was my decision. you have to get in the mind of donald trump. and part of way he operates is that he has to appear at all times as if he is the one in

charge. so this idea that he took the recommendation of somebody else is not a comfortable position for him to be in. ultimately he said over and over again that he listens to himself most. he is his own best adviser. but just take what happened this week. we were told tuesday night after the comey announcement was made by sean spicer that donald trump took the recommendation of the deputy ag and the ag. that's how this decision came about. on tuesday, on wednesday, excuse me, sarah huckabee sanders stood at that podium the exact sail thing. then vice president pence went to capitol hill and told kristinwellter exact same thing. was vice president pence again misled? after all, donald trump said ultimately he made the decision on his own. sarah huckabee sanders today saying he made it as far as last

wednesday after he was watching comey on, in a senate judiciary hearing. so the explanations mutate by the day because their president doesn't decide things nell decides things. he announces it. so there's a real problem with the communications team. so often they have to correct themselves at that podium after donald trump comes out and either contradicts him in a tweet or contradicts him in an interview. joining me now, let's go to the big picture problem. i think something is astir here, michael. i think something big and historic is going on with trump where he who is the backfill every conversation. he is updating it constantly.

he is not letting people speak for him and the vice president is getting the wrong story. >> not great him and not great for the vice president. and the last couple days, the president has been a little out of pocket and unusually quiet. that would fit what you're saying. >> why did he head off to jersey for the weekend? >> that would suggest that he was disturbed what he was hearing from sally yates and maybe nervous about this russia investigation. to come back to that conversation that he says he had with jim comey, to have this, as you were saying quite rightly, a job interview and at the same time, and him about this investigation, it is something that could get him into very big trouble. >> i like to think about what would happen if people didn't do what they can and if they're afraid. trump is a smart guy. right at the edge of reality. he is very connected to news. he loves the news. he knows this. one guy has 20 agents already

nimd dig into his russian connections. he knows all the usual suspects. he knows all the people. it is like a columbo episode. he knows all the people he's talked to. he knows what he said and he knows what he thinks that james comey knows right now. so he knows what's there threatening him. and then he knows what might be threatening him if this investigation goes on at full force for a year. he made a calculation. i can live with what they know now. they can dump it all on me now. comey can get mad and tell 60 minutes, lester, anybody, i can live with that. but if they spend a year digging into what said what to kislyak and who said what to vladimir and who said what, and it has been picked up later on, all that stuff may be what he's really afraid of. he is not afraid of the truth so far. he is afraid what the truth will be when they're done investigating. so he said i'll cut it off now,

queen sacrifice and take loss. he had to be rational enough to make decision. is that right? >> it absolutely makes sense. i don't know what trump's thinking is in this case. certainly in previous cases where trump has felt embattled. he's felt hunkered down. whether it is something like melania's plagiarism during convention, or the fbi to surveil him, there is a huge firestorm and he lets his staff hang throughout and spins thought stuff which turns out to be totally untrue. this has happened multiple times. it was actually my decision whole timism knew this was truth. but he makes it into an us versus them thing. >> is that why you called him a show boater today and took personal swims at the fbi director? >> he was trying to take him down a peg and say this was a bad guy. of course i fired him.

but you studied richard nixon why. did nixon try on block the watergate break-in? he knew would it lead the his campaign in the end. what is one left to think if donald trump is so eager? >> why do you not pull a thread from your suit? you don't know how many threads will follow it. what i think is interesting. there were three points. they would argue about it on the news tonight. did comey ever say he was clean, did he say three times, you're clean. did that ever happen? two, was the fbi in tumult over comey's leadership? we know that's not true. and this whole, the thing about who told who, they're going to fire comey. it is now clear rosenstein didn't come up with the idea as we used to study in jesuit philosophy. there is real cause.

in this case, it was admitted, the president himself. i banltd guy out of there. i wanted to sack him. and the fbi director can't be sacked except for cause. he brings in this guy, a legitimate public official with a good record. i believe he really believed there was a reason for cause to remove him. but that's not the story they've been the pointing out. and the president under some good questioning by our colleague lester holt today said i did it. a little jack nicholson moment. >> it the won't help. >> it won't help that he admits he did it? >> it blows open so many questions. you know comey is not going on answer this. you know rosenstein -- >> i don't know. you call him a show boater. he might tell somebody that he didn't have those three conversations. >> he also kept records of his conversations with the president. >> i've been watching this tape

four or five times and i have a hard time they happened the way he described they will. he was straining to imagine them. that wraps this up for this hour. i'm chris matthews in washington. i'll see you back here at 7:00 p.m. eastern for "hardball." this is history making. s tonight on "nbc nightly news." check for local listings. peter picks things up from the white house. >> good afternoon to you. we are on a rain drenched north lawn here at the white house this afternoon. finally after a tumultuous week, the president is speaking in an exclusive sit down interview with the president on firing the fbi director james comey. >> look, he is a show boat, a grand stander. the fbi has been in turmoil. you know that.