me. before we go, i have a book event coming up on monday if you're in the detroit area. i'll be speaking at the burton manor hosted by the metro detroit book society. you can check out our facebook page for more details. if you're in the area, please come by. the rachel maddow show starts right now. thanks to you at home for joining us for the next hour. buckle up, i guess that's the right thing to say. the biggest developing story in the country tonight may be the biggest story yet of this presidency is the white house apparently abandoning all pretense when it comes to explaining the firing of fbi director james comey. as a country we have obviously never before had a president whose campaign was the subject of an active fbi counter intelligence investigation, so there's really no historical

prescription in terms of what you ought to do that would count as normal behavior in that circumstance. for the last couple days even this white house in its unusual situation and unusual relationship to political norms in general, for the last couple days even this white house accepted the basic principle that a president shouldn't fire the person leading an investigation into his campaign because the president doesn't like that investigation. for the past couple days the white house at least halfheartedly try to explain the firing of fbi director james comey as something other than what it looks like. they produced a memo from the deputy attorney general saying it was because of the handling of the hillary clinton e-mail last year. they produced the vice president of the united states to assure people in his calm, steady way that the president only fired

the fbi director because of grave concerns about the fbi director coming from within the department of justice. the white house spokesman and his deputy told reporters that the firing was a doj decision, that it was about the wishes of the attorney general, that the memo from the department of justice was not written at the direction of the president that it was initiated by the justice department. when the president saw the memo from the department of justice, it left him no choice, literally, that was the phrase, no choice. for the last couple days, they made a half hearted case that the president didn't fire the fbi director because the fbi director is leading an escalating investigation into the russia scandal. the biggest story in the country now, what may be the defining story of this presidency at least thus far, is that now they have given up on even those half

hearted attempts at pretense. now they are just going for it. it's like a dare. basically they're saying now, yeah, okay, you got us. yeah, we fired the fbi director to kibosh the russia investigation, we did. what are you going to do about it? >> did you ask for a recommendation. >> what i did is i was going to fire comey. my decision. >> you had made decision before they came in the room? >> i was going to fire comey. there's no good time to do it, by the way. >> in your letter you said i accepted their recommendation so you had already made the decision? >> i was going to fire regardless of recommendation. he made a recommendation. he's highly respected very smart guy. the democrats like him. the republicans like him. he made a recommendation, but regardless of recommendation, i was going to fire comey knowing there was nodding time to do it. and in fact, when i decided to just do it, i said to myself, i

said, you know, this russia thing with trump and russia is a madeup story. >> when i decided to just do it, fire the fbi director i said to myself, i said, you know, this russia thing is a made-up story. and so i fired the fbi director who was leading the investigation into the russia thing. a lot of people are looking at that admission from the president tonight in that interview with lester holt. a lot of people are looking at that clip, that tape, that statement by the president as of what he said there was like almost an accident. the reaction to that probably was like he accident blurted out the real reason why he fired the fbi director. i do not mean this in a, isn't

that correcty, isn't that correct can i that's just the way he talks. what he said there does not appear to have been an accident because he said it calmly, he knew exactly what he was saying obviously. he wasn't being badgered into it. he was risk on his own terms. and he isn't the only one who said that today. this is the way the professional communications staff at the white house started talking about this matter today from the podium in the briefing room. >> just to clarify one thing you said. the president has encouraged this investigation into russia. he wants to see it reach its collusion. how has he credentialed it if he fired the man overseeing the russia investigation. >> there are multiple people the part of the. it's not just the fbi. look, the point is we want this to come to its collusion. we want it to come to its collusion with integrity and we think we've been removing the director taken stopes make that

happen. thanks so much, guys. >> speaking of integrated -- why not have an independent investigation of them. that's what a number of attorney generals are asking. >> thanks so much, guys, got to go. by removing director comey, we have taken steps to make that happen. that's what she says there, because we want this to come to its conclusion. we think that we've actually by removing director comey taken steps to make that happen. that's why we removed director comey. so the white house today has just dropped the pretense about why the president fired the fbi director. yeah, we fired him for the russia thing, to stop the russia thing, to bring the russia thing to an end. what are you going to do about it? a lot of people are talking about obstruction of justice today if the president did do what he said he did because he

wanted to effect the fbi's investigation into his campaign and its ties with russia, that would be -- that is -- that's the kind of example you might make up if you were teaching a low level class on op obstruction of justice and you wanted to give your students a crystal clear example of what that might look like in a banana republic where things like that happen. as far as that goes though, the remedy for obstruction of justice is committed by a president, there's only one remedy which is impeachment. it was the third article of impeachment against bill clinton. any such investigation by the inspector general. justice department would only cover the actions of justice department personnel. it would not cover the actions of the president of the united states. if the president obstructed

justice deliberately with this firing, if he fired the fbi director to effect the russia investigation, the only remedy for impeachment. raise your hand if you think this disagrees going to take up impeachment proceeding. let me raise another matter here. it is about the potential for political interference by the president, by the the president's closest advisers on the trump russia investigation. this one does not start in washington or the white house. this one starts where all the media information about this starts which is in the aggressive free press we are believed with in this country. this spring, the associated press had two great scoops about the man who was the chairman of the trump campaign during the time that trump won the republican primaries and

collected the nomination. pa manafort was the chairman. it allegedly happened between trump soerts and russians officials. the first scoop on manafort -- he worked to aid putin. he worked for a russian billy billionnary with a plan to greatly benefit the putin government. in 2005 he proposed in a confidential strategy plan he would influence politics, business dealings, and news coverages inside the united states europe and former soviet republics to benefit vladimir putin's government. manafort's pitch memo for this contract said, quote, we are now of the belief this model can greatly benefit the putin government if employed at the correct levels with a commitment

to success. manafort pitched the plans to a russian billionnary a close putin ally with whom he signs a contract beginning in 2006. that was the ap's first big schoon on manafort this spring which happened in march. i remember when that story broke i was in a cab on my way to work, and i laughed out loud when i read it on my phone and i read the headline and the lead of the story out loud to the cab driver and he turned around like this with the wheel and looked at me. i was likes no! it was almost the death of me. but that was manafort in march. starting in 2006 ending, who knows when, donald trump's campaign chairman had an annual contract to promote the transistor of vladimir putin's government in countries around the world including the united states. boom from the associated press. then three weeks later they had this one ap exclusive, manafort

firm received ukraine ledger payment. now this one didn't cause any cab drivers to drive off the road and didn't have the same hair on fire effect as the contract to help putin story. this one closed the loop on the story that actually got paul manafort bounced off the trump campaign in the first place. it was "the new york times" back in august who reported that paul manafort appeared opposite a secret ledger on what appeared to be payments from the ukrainen dictator and his party who essentially looted that country's treasury. "new york times" reported last august that manafort was listed on this ledger of aelgtd secret payments from the dictator of ukraine. and if the "new york times" reported his name, manafort was gone from the trump campaign less than a week later. he denied ever receiving those payments, but they ousted him from the campaign. that was august. it took until april, but the

associated press that he was not just on the ledger ear marked to receive payments, they reported that he did take those payments. there have been all sorts of reports since paul manafort mysterious left the campaign that the money trail all over the world has pruchb interesting to investigators. nbc's richard engle went to cypress. that they had handed over information on paul manafort's money to the u.s. treasury's financial crimes unit. there have been multiple reports that paul manafort also ended up in the middle of an fbi investigation in ukraine that's basically an investigation of that country being a klept to beingsy. that manafort's client stole

from the government of that country. where did all the money go? there's an fbi investigation into that. manafort has been reported to be tied up in that investigation. so manafort's money trail, he denies all wrong doing related to any of these overseas payments or political work. but multiple reports over multiple months suggest that paul manafort's international money trail is like life's rich pageant for investigators. and when that simple ap story came out in april about him allegedly getting paid out of ukraine, that story hit a nerve. there's been all sorts of stories with his money, but this allegation about his payments out of ukraine, that's what led him to quit the trump campaign last august, and then ap's story in april about the payments actually happened, that led him to do this. that same day the ap story came out, this story was everywhere.

paul manafort expected to register as foreign agent. noorcht register as foreign agent. and at the time that happened in april, it made some waves, right? critics of the trump administration, chew on that. here's another senior person registering retro actively as a foreign power. and now trump campaign chairman, paul manafort had to do it too. amazing story. manafort never did it. you can search yourself to see who is registered as a foreign after all it's a good little enforcement i have it book marked on my phone. it's mobile friendly. i do it every day. every day i type into the search box, manafort, search, and there's nothing new.

everybody thinks he registered as a foreign agent like mike flynn did. manafort never registering. and here's why this is important. investigations need source material, right? investigators need evidence. they need open source material they dig up on their own. they need data and documents that they pry out of agencies and individuals. they may need intercepts especially if it's a cloak and dagger foreign intelligence or something. but really what they need, what they desperately want are witnesses, cooperating witnesses, people who were close enough or high ranking enough that they know what happened, and crucially, those people have to be willing to talk. they have to be willing to testify about what they witnessed. in any investigation, cooperating witnesses often need

incentive. why would anybody turn against these people they were close to now that they're potentially in trouble. if you're close enough to these folks thaufds stuff that's being investigated and potentially prosecuted, why would you turn against those people? i mean, in this case any people who were high ranking in the trump campaign, they're generally going to be pro-trump, right? why would they become corroborating witnesses in the investigation of the trump campaign? they wouldn't unless they had an insensitive to do it, a real reason to testify. oftentimes the threat of prosecution is that reason. that's the incentive. hey, we got something on you and we're going to prosecute you for it unless you tell us what you know. that's the general pattern that investigators pursue, especially in big straulg cases like this, right? so when mike flynn had his lawyer come out and say mike flynn has a story to tell and he

would like to tell it, remember that? certainly general flynn has story to tell and he would very much like to tell it. that was couched with a request for immunity from prosecution for mike flynn. today in the atlantic magazine, you can see the white house spilkus saying he is worried about mike flynn said one source close to the white house. trump has questioned whether or not they should have fired flynn. whermgs retro actively registered as a foreign power after he was fired, that was a sign that he was talking to the department of justice. the department of justice has jurisdiction.

and mike flynn registered and everybody thinks paul manafort registering but manafort did not. in a statement, paul manafort said he consulted with federal authorities and had received formal guidance from those authorities. the authorities would be the of justice. paul manafort never registered apparently thanks to the guidance he got from federal authorities. federal authorities told him not to register? you're fine, you're okay, buddy, don't worry about it. given what's been widely reported about him and his money, you think he might really have to be worried about it. anything that can be used to prosecute a witness can be used as pressure on that witness to flip. but in paul manafort's case, the department of justice appears to be alleviating that pressure on

him, and it is happening quietly. now, the head of the justice department is attorney general jeff sessions. jeff sessions has made public statements to the effect that he's recused from all justice department matters that may relate to the trump campaign. that recould you feel is in question now because of his role in james comey's firing. senate democrats wrote to the deputy attorney general today asking this, quote, jeff sessions recused himself from any role in the investigation of russia's involvement in the 2016 elections and the trump campaign because of his close relationship with the campaign and his own undisclosed contacts. according to public reporting he participated in the decision to fire director comey. did you and attorney general sessions ever discuss whether it would be improper for him to be involved in the dismissal of the lead investigating of an

investigation from which he was recused? did you ever talk about that? jeff sessions is already under fire for whether or not he is really recused from overseeing these investigations. if you fire if lead investigator, you're not recused. after that story came out, jesksz was asked of his stated refusal would also involve him from being involved from matters involving mike flynn. he said, yes. but what about matters involving paul manafort? is jeff sessions keeping himself out of anything at doj involving paul manafort or not? is he recused from matters involving trump's campaign chairman? because there are interesting questions about what's happening with the department of justice and paul manafort. is jeff sessions involved in any work at the department of justice concerning paul manafort or is he recused?

we can report tonight that the justice department will not say. we started asking yesterday. we asked throughout the day today. we asked it five times in five different ways. they will not say whether or not he's recused. he is recused on flynn, they say. he said recused on things related to the trump campaign. they won't say about manafort. so i started this by saying, buckle up, this is going to be chaotic. there is a real question about that and that is bizarre.

it is additionally bizarre on the trump campaign manager in particular, they will not say if he is recused or not. something strange is up about whether and how they are leaning on him as a potential corroborating witness. the leverage they may or may not be exerting on him. but as the focus turns to obstruction of justice, watch the president knowing that the only remedy sfolgts impeachment. watch further down the chain too. we'll be right back. stay with me, mr. parker. when a critical patient is far from the hospital, the hospital must come to the patient. stay with me, mr. parker. the at&t network is helping first responders connect with medical teams in near real time... stay with me, mr. parker. ...saving time when it matters most. stay with me, mrs. parker.

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business ties, things have recently taken a turn in this investigation toward business ties. >> general clapper, during your investigation of all things russia, did you ever find a situation where a trump business interest in russia gave you concern? >> not in the course in the appropriation of the intelligence community assessment. >> since? >> i'm sorry? >> at all? anytime? >> senator graham, i can't comment on that because that impacts the investigation. >> i can't comment on trump business interests in russia because that impacts an investigation. that was monday. senator graham later told reporters, quote, i want to know more about trump's business dealings. you think? tonight speaking with "nbc

nightly news" is lester holt president trump confirmed when he called tremendous highly rated law firm, tremendous firm, to send a letter to lindsey graham that affirms that president trump has no business ties to russia for what that's worth. on monday the senate intelligence committee asked information about trump and his top aides from the treasury department financial crimes unit that's known for his expertise in money laundering cases. the committee wants to see any information rest of it to its russia investigation that the agency has gathered. that's according to a committee aide. the request covers potentially rest of it information about trump, his family, his businesses, and his associates. yesterday the same senate committee subpoenaed michael

flynn, or at least subpoenaed documents related to its russia probe, documents he previously refused to hand over. federal prosecutors have also reported the issue grand jury subpoenas to mike flynn's former business associates who worked with him prior to him joining the administration. the focus on the president specifically and his family and his associates business ties that ramped up in a big way this week. who knows if that has anything to do with the white house decision to fire the fbi director. but for months one senator in particular has been saying that business ties is the angle that investigators really ought to be zeroing in on. in addition to being a member of the senate intelligence committee he's also the ranking democrat on the finance committee. >> i believe the key to a successful investigation is following the money. the treasury department is

responsible for other programs and investigations that may uncover suspicious financial activities by donald trump and its associates. it is already a matter of public record that entities associated with donald trump have been the subject of millions of dollars of fines for willful, repeated and long standing anti-money laundering laws. information about donald trump's finances, his family, and his associates may lead to russia. >> joining us now is senator ron wyden. senator, it's nice to have you with us tonight. thank you for your time tonight, sir. >> thank you. >> let me ask you about this issue that you have been pushing i think harder than anybody else in congress, the idea that the president's finances and specifically his business ties are key, at the center of the

bulls' eye in terms of figuring out if there's anything actionable or serious to worry about. >> i've always thought when you're talking about shell corporations property tafrz, donald jr. said for years an extensive amount of their portfolio was with russia, that you have to follow the money. we asked clint watts, he said you should follow the trail of the dead bodies. so there is a real connection here to really getting out the question of conflicts of interests and making sure the interests of the american people people come first. >> i don't know much about the treasury financial crimes unit. i know the stories of them tracking terrorist financing and tracking down people who are

violating sanctions. but you've now announced you're going to hold up one of the president's nominees for undersecretary of the treasury until your committee gets the records from the financial crimes enforcement network at the treasury d. what does that part of the pressurery department do and why do you think those records are so important? >> those records are so key because they are really going to finally illuminate some of these connections between the trump organization, his associates, and the russians. there have been an extraordinary number of press reports, for example, in the case of the dossier and i come back to the dead bodies, there are reports of people who disappeared in connection with that. there is a real interrelationship between some of the charges and the serious allegations that are made. this whole question of getting access to the documents, and i've always thought it's about the financial records.

as you know, i'm the sponsor of the legislation that retires the for the disclose his tax returns. when you're not able to get the information about the way he conducts his business affairs, then you have questions when you see relationships with the russians that his own sons admit to. >> do we know for sure the financial crimes unit is investigating either the president himself or his campaign or people associated with him? do we know that for sure? is that public information or can you tell us whether or not that's true? >> i can't get into all of the details, but i consider that the key place, rachel, in order to get to the bottom of this. obviously we are learning more about this literally by the hour. we're getting on top of the financial records. i think that's essential. i think we had a slap your forehead moment this afternoon, this interview with lester holt by his own words seems to me the

president fired mr. comey to end the investigation. so we're getting new issues presented to us almost by the hour. >> senator, would you mind holding with me. we have to take a quick break. there's something you highlighted today at the hearing that i've been worried about. it's about whether or not there is full cooperations. would you mind coming back with us in educational background? >> not at all. >> senator wyden. that appears to be an area of focus. maybe that's why everybody's freaking out. the senator will be back with us in just a moment. bought every day earned you miles to get to the places you really want to go. with the united mileageplus explorer card,

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. he made recommendation. he's highly respected, very smart guy. democrats like him. the republicans like him. he made a recommendation. but regardless of recommendation, i was going to fire comey knowing there was nodding time to do it. and in fact, when i decided to just do it, i said to myself, i said, you know, this russia thing with trump and russia is a madeup story. >> the president tonight speaking with lester holt saying when he decided to fire fbi director james comey regardless of the recommendation from the

justice department, he said to himself this trump russia thing, this is made up. joining us is senator wyden. senator wyden, i wanted to play that clip because you just referenced it saying you found that troubling. what did you find troubling about that, sir? >> what was really stunning about it is you have the president speaking in his own words. and it looks to me and the president is saying they fired mr. comey because he wanted to be done with the investigation. and i think there are questions with respect to the technical dwefgsz of obstruction of justice, but it looked like this firing was to make this entire investigation just go away. he said it was made up and wanted it to be done with. >> if that's the case, and i

think that is not a farfetched assertion. they are also making that same case on the podium. white house spokeswoman today saying they believe that the russia investigation will wrap up now, come to a collusion because they removed director comey. if that's the case and basically saying we fired comey because we don't like the trump russia investigation, what's the recourse? >> first of all, the president is isn't entitled to make the judgment with the investigation ends. it's our job to go where the facts lead. that's why we're pursuing matters relate to go following the money, that's why we're looking at a host of issues with respect to whether we've gotten truthful accounts of events. this is not something the president can just take as a matter of his own privilege to decide when an investigation ends. we're going to go where the

facts lead. >> senator, one last question for you. you had the senate intelligence committee today. probably the most contentious time in the hearing was a colloquy between you and mike pompeo. you were asking whether he had advanced noticed of sally yates warning to the white house. i want to ask you what you were driving at knowing you won't tell me anything more than what you said in the hearing. i also want to ask you if you have wears about the cia and whether they're being forthcoming? >> i have real questions about whether the cia director was straight with us with respect to mike flynn today. the reality is that sally yates gave a very clear warning, and we're talking about the global threat hearing, something where the national security adviser could be black mailed.

and in effect, the cia director played down any conversations he might have had say in a daily brief. there are a lot of unanswered questions here, and you don't feel in the public session mike pompeo was straight with us with respect to what interactions he may have had with mike flynn who sally yates was concerned represented a blackmail threat. >> in terms of your own investigation and anything you may know about the other investigations is there any indication that the cia is not handing over documents making materials available in a way that is forthcoming? >> we have had some challenges. i think it would be fair to say that the committee has had real challenges to getting access to documents. look, the reality is until very recently most of the information we were getting came from leaks,

from tweets from the president of the united states. it's gotten a little bit better, but we still have to pick up the pace. >> senator ron wyden. i know being on tv is not your favorite thing in the world. i appreciate you being here. >> thank you. >> i told you to buckle up. lots more ahead, stay with us. brian, i just need to know if the customer app will be live monday. can we at least analyze customer traffic? can we push the offer online? brian, i just had a quick question.

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completion sooner rather than later. how has he encouraged it if he fired if man who's overseeing the investigation. >> there are multiple people that are part of this. you have the house committee, the senate committee. look, the point is we want this to come to its conclusion with integrity, and we think we've actually by removing director comey taken steps to make that happen. thanks so much, guys. >> thanks so much, you guys. that's the deputy press secretary, sarah huckabee sanders who recently appears to have taken reins from sean spicer. we think we've ensured this investigation will come to its conclusion. senator ron wyden told us even if the white house just is now admitting that the president fired the fbi director to influence the russia investigation and to try to end it, senator wyden just argued the president doesn't get to say

when any of these investigations end. our next guest is a member of the house intelligence committee. he's introduced a bill to independently investigate. it would be have the power to issue subpoenas and obtain documents and take testimony. this bill has the support of every member of the democratic caucus. it gained confidence from a republican, justin amash, one who's received a lot of pressure from his constituents on this issue. california congressmen eric swallow well joins us now. let me ask you about these remarks from the president and the remarks today from the white house podium saying essentially that the comey firing was about the russia investigation it

seems like a blunt dropping of pretense as far as i'm concerned. i wanted to get your reaction. >> he mentioned it in the letter his security guard. this is a pattern of obstruction we've seen from the president from the deceitful claim about president obama wire tapping him to tweeting at sally yates before she testified. and now this clear statement that they want this investigation to go away. and rachel, i'll also say members of congress are home right now in their districts and i've spent the last week talking five different rotary clubs. what i've heard from my constituents is that this stinks. you can't fire guy that's investigating you. right now it doesn't look like we're getting a good investigation. >> if the white house does officially drop the pretense, if

they admit that, i'm not a lawyer, but as far as i can tell, the only remedy for that if it's something committed by the president himself is impeachment which seems like a pretty pie-in-the-sky idea with the republican house. what would the recourse be? >> as a member. the judiciary committee, we need to get an assurance that it's an honest investigation not impeded by politics. i'd also to find out in the house intelligence committee we should also be able to be loud to continue our investigation and have the hearings that were promised and that were canceled. before we get to the impeachment

word, it's going to the "i" word most of us want to say is an honest investigation and that's threat understand. >> no matter what happens with the congressional investigation in either house, there is no prosecutorial consequence of that. any prosecuting decisions, any criminal behavior that was undertaken, that's something that would have to be prosecuted by the department of justice. it seems to me, congressman swalwell, an open question whether or not the attorney general is actually recused from overseeing department of justice matter, including fbi investigations of the trump campaign, including the trump russia investigation. he was directly involved in the decision to fire james comey, which if they're admitting it's about the russia investigation or if they're saying it's about the hillary clinton e-mail investigation, in either case, he is supposed to be recused from these matters. i wonder if there is confusion about that within the committee, if you have a take on that.

>> it doesn't seem very confusing to me, rachel. it looks like he is not recused. his fingerprints are not only on this, his signature is on the letter. when he told congress that he is recusing himself from russia, to me that meant he would not be involved at all with the chief investigator of what happened with russia's interference. so that's a question that we have. i think we should know what all of his contacts were with anyone involved in the russian investigation. and then proceed from there. but, again, you talk to people at home. they just want to know how this happened, whether any u.s. persons were involved, and how we can prevent it from happening again. and that's why i think an independent commission is the most comprehensive way is to get to the bottom of that. >> congressman eric swalwell from california, thank you very much for your time tonight. happy to have you here. >> my pleasure. >> all right. we'll be right back. stay with us. [man] beautiful just like you. [woman] oh, why thank you.

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into the clinton e-mail investigation. you can see that in the polls. you can see that and hear it in visceral reaction from voters around the country. congressman swalwell was talking about seeing that in action. we've got really interesting evidence of it in action, coming up next. ♪ ♪

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>> has any evidence been represented to you of russian collusion with the trump campaign during the election? >> the last question first. no. not at all. in fact, that's one thing that the president called me on saying three times he's already said there is no -- >> congressman tim wahlberg's town hall in militia this morning. he is not alone in facing that kind of reception. >> today's firing of james comey, will you advocate for a special prosecutor to investigate trump's ties to russia? [ cheering and applause ] trumps ties to russia? >> yeah. we have oversight committees in the house, in the senate -- [ booing ] they're working their course.

>> what is it going the take, congressman? what is it going to take for you and your fellow republicans to open your eyes and realize what is going on? we need an independent prosecutor. we need a bipartisan select committee to investigate this. when are you going to open your eyes. we all see it. you don't see what's going on? you don't see it? when are you going to decide to be an american and not a politician? [ cheering and applause ] >> new jersey last night. congressman tom mcarthur's town hall lasted five hours. and it's not only republicans facing that this week. protesters at chuck schumer's office last night in new york calling for an independent commission to investigate trump in russia. same thing happened at dianne feinstein's office in san francisco today. the country's response to this is palpable. that does it for us tonight. we'll see you again