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[ laughing ] show me the billboard music awards. show me top artist. show me the top hot 100 artist. they give awards for being hot and 100 years old? we'll take 2! [ laughing ] xfinity x1 gives you exclusive access to the best of the billboard music awards just by using your voice. the billboard music awards. sunday, may 21st eight seven central only on abc. hi, i'm ari melber. 6:00 p.m. on the east coast. a look at the white house intrigue in the wake of the firing of james comey. hunger games in the west wing. reports tonight from nbc news that trump might follow firing comey by firing white house aides. meanwhile, democrats say they need a special counsel in the russia case. few republicans ready to jump on board. which raises the question if this isn't a special case, what is? and we will continue to bear down on the facts when it comes to the future of the russia

inquiry, because it's clear now more than ever this ain't over. it is an unusually busy weekend with the justice department working overtime, interviewing the candidates for fbi director, which range from acting director andrew mccabe, a conventional and nonpartisan option to the trump administration's partisan decision to float the idea of politicians taking over the fbi, including republicans like senator cornyn and former congressman mike rogers. picking corn nan ining cornyn w equivalent of obama firing asking dick durbin to take over. today lindsey graham drew a line for donald trump. >> i think it's now time to pick somebody that comes from within the ranks or of such a reputation that has no political background at all that can good into the job on day one. you know, who does the fbi director work for? to me it's like appointing a judge. the president actually appoints a judge, but the judge is loyal to the law. the president appoints the fbi director, but the fbi director

has to be loyal to the law. >> and that's not only the personnel drama. nbc news reporting this evening that trump is considering firing multiple aides. sean spicer and reince priebus have been rumored as in trouble. hallie jackson also reporting steve bannon was out on the loop on the issue of firing. and they quote an aide who says trump is, quote, angry at everyone right now. let's get right to it. mother jones' davidanne no sk s. and a political reporter at the daily mail. before we get to the white house palace intrigue, your view of what it would mean for the russia inquiry to put a politician and take him out of the senate republican conference when cornyn is number two and

put him in to run the fbi. >> well, i think it will mean two things. first off, i just spent all of yesterday in washington having this discussion. and to bring someone like cornyn in, he may think he can come in there and do the job and quite possibly earn the respect of the fbi agents, but it's very unlikely. what he can't do is he won't be able to shut down the russian investigation. i think this is now a train which has energy and impetus behind it, and that the people in the national counterterrorism unit there are just not going to end this inquiry. they are going to start reviewing anyone that tries to stop it with suspicion themselves. >> david, i always have questions for you on the point. but let's start with what do you think the important questions are tonight? >> well, i mean, we could spend all hour here on these ramifications of the comey firing. the tapes. there tapes? where are the tapes in should should have the tapes?

obviously congress should. the recuse federal jeff sessions that wasn't a recusal. rod rosenstein's involvement in this. should he be put to the side or perhaps brought in for investigation as well? this is separate from the russia investigation, although related. but i think it's a whole another reason for congress to at least republicans to take their heads out of the sand and get involved here. because we are getting very close to obstruction of justice territory. and if you're talking about a president and obstruction of justice, can impeachment be too far behind? i hate using that word. i haven't used it before this week. but we're getting to that territory. >> you're saying that this story and these developments are the first time that you as a reporter are looking at whether there are substantive grounds that could lead to impeachment, david? >> well, yes. you can imagine them before out of the russian investigation. but here we have a pretty good set of facts. the president fired the fbi director to get rid of what he

calls the russia thing. and that others were involved in this. and if that's the case, you know, you're the lawyer and i'm not. but you're getting close to the president taking action to stop what might be investigation involving criminal matters. and remember, one of the three articles of impeachment that the house approved, the house judiciary committee approved against nixon was obstruction of justice for getting in the way of an fbi investigation. >> francesca, i wonder if you could put that issue in the larger context of how republicans respond to this, and whether they think they are on the side of stopping the potential disillusion of this administration or its hampering. and i don't just mean in the legal capacity. but whether this becomes a story that hobbles the white house for months or years, or whether they think they can stop the bleeding and step up and do something that would be broadly nonpartisan and restore some public faith to use the term that has been circulating in law enforcement. >> well, i think there are two things here, ari. first of all, this is partially

why republicans want to continue to investigate whether or not there is or isn't any russian collusion so that they can show that they're up to the task, that they are not necessarily just a rubber stamp for this white house. so you have seen the senate and the house say they're up to this. they don't need a special committee. but the other thing that you're seeing here with senator graham this morning also saying that they think it shouldn't be necessarily someone who a partisan, that mr. trump, the president would not name for this position. and part of that reason would be if he nominates someone who is a republican who is seen as very loyal to him and to his administration, then it would potentially look like he was trying to stop some sort of an investigation into a russian connection. >> suzanne, having served in government and national security and diplomatic positions, take us through the mind-set of the career people right now. >> i think it's a kind of frightening moment. it's one of the signal moments where the question is whether

ultimately the president is going to put himself and his administration, his interests above the health and the endurance of our institutions, and whether republicans on the hill will do the same. the institutions are being tested. i think the foundations are swaying right now. and the question is through the appointment of a special counsel, through his choice who have will succeed james comey at the fbi, will there be appointments and steps that convince career rank and file people that these institutions are going to solidify. they're going to endure. they're going return to their role of being nonpartisan institutions that are working in the public interest. because that's in doubt right now. >> right. and that goerks david, whether the administration in some way wants to change who has gotten up to this point. because it's a product of his own choices and the people around him who appear completely flat-footed about what this means, why it breaks protocol, why you fire someone midstream like this, what he orchestrate order didn't orchestrate with the doj. so david, if i could, i want to

read you something really stupid. would that be all right with you? >> go ahead! >> this is a blind quote, as we say in the industry, of really stupid proportions from this axios reporter about a shake-up. the president is frustrated and angry of everyone, said a confidante of donald trump. the advice he is getting is to go big. that he has nothing to lose. the question now is how big and how bold. and i'm not sure he knows the answer to that yet. not only as a credit to axios' reporting but my own substantial reporting, this does sound lying something a trump aide might say right now. i have no idea what it means. i would say all the facts up to this point suggest he does have something to lose hi, has a lot to lose. and of course the country has a lot to lose. i can just imagine an aide walking in there and going sir you should go for it. i don't even know what that would mean at this point. thinking of reading this story about him railing at everybody, you know, there is a great line

from shakespeare, you might have heard of him. the fault, dear brutus, lies not in the stars but in ourselves. he can get rid of priebus and bannon, it won't change anything. a fish rots in the head of a presidency. i'm not sure it's rotting. but it flows from the head. and all of these problems create ready self-generated. he is the chaos. he is the conflict. >> well, i appreciate the richard iii. we all know the richard ii line. a good criminal defense lawyer for my kingdom is how it goes. something like this. it's not a horse. it has to do with having a really good lawyer. francesca, who is going to get fired if anyone? >> well, the difficulty in the communication shop of what is happening, as david was alluding to there is that when the president is going out, and he is contradicting his communications staff on a regular basis, it doesn't really matter who is at that podium.

whether that is sean spicer or that's sarah huckabee sanders. let me give you an example. when sarah huckabee sanders did her first on camera briefing, she said that no, no, the president didn't mean that australia actually has better health care than the united states. within an hour, the president was on twitter saying yes, that's actually what i did mean. they do have a better system. and we've seen that happen repeatedly with her. even if the president were to get rid of sean spicer and say you said some things that turned out not to be true and it's making me look bad, then you'd still theoretically have the same problem with putting sarah or someone else up there at that podium. if the president isn't talking to his staff before he sends them up there to answer questions -- they've said this week that sometimes what's happen hearing is they're not getting in to see him. so when they're answering questions, they don't have all the fax. if they don't have all the fact, they're not going to be able to communicate his message to american people. >> i hear you on that.

i think you state it very well and fairly. i would add that if your role is representing the united states and not just the president who runs it, and you don't have the fax, you have an obligation to say when you don't know, rather than making things up or guessing. >> yes, and ari, i will say that's something i noticed them do more this week you. saw sarah say that once you. saw sean say that repeatedly on friday. i don't know the answer. i'll have to get back to you. >> or as we say when we text, idk. sometimes better than the alternative. i want to give a special thanks to francesca chamberers. pete williams is here on the point to talk about the issue so many people are asking about. how would you even name a special counsel. i'll also be joined by leo tatio. he is the man picked by james comey into a crime president obama deemed a top legal priority, cyberterror. >> when the chief executive of the united states raises

cybersecurity to that level, americans should sit up and take notice. >> that was part of a report we did focusing on the fbi's cyberunit. i'm going to speak directly to former agent taddeo who was charged with overseeing the man. that's next. o. with the united mileageplus explorer card, you'll get a free checked bag, 2 united club passes... priority boarding... and 50,000 bonus miles. everything you need for an unforgettable vacation. the united mileageplus explorer card. imagine where it will take you. dearthere's no other way to say this.

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are you willing to appoint a special counsel to examine russian interference to our elections and other criminal activity? >> i'm willing to appoint a special counsel, senator, whenever i determine it's appropriate based on the proceed years of the justice department. >> democrats now arguing the debate over james comey's firing boylts do boils down to a bay debate. they want rod rosenstein. now why is this big decision left up to a previously unknown official? well, because the top doj official recused himself. it is far fetched to think a

deputy ag is ever going to appoint a special counsel to investigate people in his own administration? well, it's happened before. >> if there is a leak out of my administration, i want to know who it is. and if the person has violated law, the person will be taken care of. >> that was president bush speaking about an inquiry into whether one of his aides out of his agency recused himself because he was considered too close to the controversy. and his deputy did appoint a special counsel, u.s. attorney patrick fitzgerald. he ultimately charge and convicted dick cheney's aide scooter libby, who was then sentenced to 30 months in prison. dick cheney was upset about that, criticizing the process and even pushing reportedly for a pardon. president bush did use his pardon power, but he commuted libby sentence. how even when the white house does investigate white house officials, the president does retain a lawful authority to limit some consequences. but many expert says that example is a positive example of

how the system should work. the special counsel vebl thewas considered independent. they learned new facts about what is considered a national scandal. and the recusal system seemed to work. with the ag recused, it was his deputy that determined a special counsel was needed whom. was that deputy attorney general back in the day? none other than james comey. joining us now is pete williams who covered that special counsel investigation. thank you for being here, pete. and what are the legal standards that can justify a special counsel? >> when the attorney general or when he is recused like in the current situation, the deputy thinks it would be a conflict of interest for the justice department to investigate senior officials in the administration and when it would be in the public interest, then the deputy attorney general can appoint a special counsel. now a couple things about this.

basically, it says greater autonomy than a u.s. attorney. maybe. but the best way to think of this is that a special counsel sort of stands in for a u.s. attorney. they have the same powers as a u.s. attorney, and there is one very important thing about special counsel. we think about independent counsel. and that was what ken starr of the whitewater prosecutor was. but that law for appointing independent counsel by a special three-person council lapsed in 1999. special counsel have to abide by all the justice department rules and regulations, and in this case, the deputy attorney general still retains some supervision over the special counsel. so they're not truly independent. the deputy attorney general could overrule the special counsel. but there is a check on that when the whole process is over, the deputy attorney general has to report to congress about any

changes that were made or any changes in the supervision of how the special counsel did the job. so it has to be somebody from outside the government. not just outside the justice department. it has to be a lawyer. and they have to commit to giving their full time, if that's what's needed. >> so if your reporting on a officials, both in the justice department or close to it, is this seen as a understandable place for emphasis or something that democrats have seized on but is perhaps getting excessive attention right now? >> no, i think it's still very much something potentially in play. and i suspect the whole events of the past week only make it more so. but, of course, it's up to one person. it's up to rod rosenstein. congress can't force the appointment of a special counsel. the attorney general's out of it. other officials in the justice department can urge the deputy to appoint one or not. but ultimately, the way the rules work, it's up to the

deputy attorney general. we've had these special counsel before. you talked about fitzgerald. janet reno when she was attorney general appointed john danforth who was a former u.s. senator at the time to look into the whole thing of what happened in waco with fire at the branch davidian compound. so we have used these special counsel before in high profile moments when it would be a conflict. >> pete williams, nbc news. thank you, as always. appreciate it. >> you bet. >> joining me now leo tadeo, a former special agent in charge at the fbi of special operations and cyber. also back with me malcolm nance, author of "the plot to hack america." it's not flattery to say that both you have gentlemen are perfect to give us some insights given everything today. leo, you heard pete break down how this works. the fbi line agents work in this case aren't going to change either way. but in your view, are there

potential benefits to them to having more potentially independent oversight prosecutor? >> right. so my concern as a former fbi official is to restore the credibility of the institution. i think i would urge the li leadership there to step out of the impact zone. right now there is a lot of political pressure on the fbi. we have seen how it impacted director comey and the credibility of the fbi during the clinton e-mail investigation. and i would say we're moving closer to the point where it's best for the institution to step aside and allow an independent investigator to come in and actually handle these matters. they're that sensitive. >> does that mean special counsel would help? >> i think if that were defined with certain authorities using fbi resources, i think having that in place right now would probably be the best thing for the fbi. i'm not sure if that's what rod is thinking. but as a former fbi official, i can't see how any fbi official would want the take on this responsibility there is no way

anyone is going to be happy with the results of the investigation. we saw that with the clinton e-mail investigation. >> you mentioned rod. we know him here as mr. rosenstein. i know you know a lot of these players and you respect them professionally. but you got to think rod rosenstein might be secondguessing some of the way this went down this past week. >> i don't know what rod's thinking now. i can tell you that i worked closely with rod in baltimore when he was the u.s. attorney and i worked in the baltimore office. rod is a straight shooter as they come. he has integrity as anyone could ever hope to have. he is a fine public servant, and we're lucky to have him as a deputy attorney general. >> did he write a lot of letters to the president in that role? >> i don't think it was his job at the time to write letters to the u.s. president. he carried out the job of u.s. attorney in an outstanding manner. he made a great impact. and i think he has a lot to be proud of there. he has walked into a firestorm. >> yeah. >> and we've seen a number of casualties to good people in this mess. and i think it's time that we take a step back.

let's let the professionals get the facts straight and make valid judgments based on those facts rather than questioning every decision and then impugning the integrity of these officials. these are life-long public officials. they're not in it for the money. they're in it because they believe what they're doing. to have them walk into a difficult situation and have them face criticism and questions about their integrity is really discourage. good people are getting damaged in this. >> malcolm, the former agent here make an important point about the integrity. but it doesn't impugn mr. rosenstein's integrity to point out that he has a letter standing out there that is no longer in nixonian term accurate. it's no longer wholly accurate. this is a problem, right? >> it absolutely is a problem. and the question who is who wrote the letter. from everything i heard about rod rosenstein, certainly in the last 48 hours, i've had people assert to me that he is absolutely a straight shooter,

as mr. taddeo said. however, we do have the complication of this letter which does not appear to have been written in the format and using the protocols that justice has done in past documentation about famalfeasance or the reas a person should be removed from office that being said, that may not impugn his integrity. but once we get to the bottom who penned that letter, that might give us a little more clarity in which to determine he is actually on board with it or not. >> now, mr. taddeo, you do cyber. >> right. >> virtue hard in these kind of inquiries, especially the counter intel side of who hacked what, where the material went, who was behind it originally. how does this russia inquiry proceed. put all the politics aside, walk our audience through. what are the line agents doing as they try to continue to crack this case? >> well, you're right. it is harder to have a cybercomponent to an investigation.

but it doesn't make it impossible there are ways to determine who is behind the keyboard, if you will. and we investigate those cases just like we do any other case. unfortunately, in the case of a russian hack, we have a lack of transparency once the information crosses our border and enters into the russian border that means we can't get access to witnesses. we can't examine infrastructure. well can't execute search warrants. which means we're very limited in our visibility. that doesn't mean we can't get to a high confidence level in terms of who was behind it. you're right. the initial investigation that the director disclosed was about the russian hacking and whether or not anyone in the trump administration had colluded with that hacking. that seems to be continuing in the fbi. and luckily we don't know a lot than. i think it's a good thing because it means fbi agents aren't leaking. >> the underlying part is not being leaked. we're out of time. how often should we change our e-mail password? >> change it as often as you're

comfortable with. and the guidance is at least every 90 days, 60 days is better. 30 days is even better than that. >> so every month is ideal? >> if i think you can manage that, you should do it. >> malcolm, that's a lot of work. leo taddeo and malcolm nance, i appreciate your expertise and your consumer tips. as i take a moment to open up my inbox where i change ms. password hopefully as often as you say, and get questions from you, our viewer, we're going to focus on the fbi director and looming questions. you can e-mail me at ari@msnbc.com for next week's show. to dig a hole to china. at&t is working with farmers to improve irrigation techniques. remote moisture sensors use a reliable network to tell them when and where to water. so that farmers like ray can compete in big ways. china. oh ... he got there. that's the power of and.

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as promised, ari's inbox answering your questions. the first is from kelly coburn on twitter. can the dems put a senate hold on any fbi pick? they can try. it can with approved by a simple majority vote. democrats have 48 seats. even if all the democrats agreed not to vote for the fbi director, they would still need to pull at least three republicans over to their side. senator warner who is the top dem on senate intel is refusing to vote for a new fbi director until there is an appointment of what we've been covering today,

a special counsel for russia. other democrats saying they support that strategy. here is senator schumer on state of the union today. >> i think mark warner's idea is a good idea. and i think it will get some broad support in our caucus. the key here, of course, is getting some of our republican colleagues to join us. we're hoping. we're waiting. we understand it's difficult. but i think patriotism and the needs of this country demand it. >> now, another one of you had the question of the week. this is from ebo lady on twitter who says isn't firing comey an obstruction of justice? now, the short answer is based on the public available evidence right now, no. the firing itself is not obstruction of justice. and that's because the president does have the lawful authority to remove an fbi director. so while the white house story has changed, and we've been documenting that, trump still has some claims that are potentially valid for the termination, like that comey wasn't doing a good job. but let's go a little deeper. to understand how this firing could theoretically be obstruction of justice, take a

step back and think about intent. the law cares as much about why people do things as it cares about what they did. if you're mopping the floor and somebody slips and breaks their arms, that might be very sad, but it's not a crime of battery. but if you put the same soapy water on the floor with a plan to make someone slip and hurt themselves, that intent could make the same situation the crime of battery. so think about that applied here to this more complex scenario. if trump's intent was to fire comey to obstruct justice, or if new evidence shows that it was part of some larger plot to impede an investigation, then, yes, the same firing could support an obstruction case. now here is how a former pentagon counsel explains the concept. if trump orchestrated the decision to fire the fbi director to subvert or undermine the integrity of the investigations into the trump campaign's possible coordination with russia, it may amount to an obstruction of justice. that takes more words than the mop example. now if you want to look at history, obstruction has been

used as an article of impeachment against nixon and clinton. in one case the charges stuck. nixon resigned. in the other, clinton was not removed from office. where does it all go from here? new reporting this weekend. the ethics group crew which does have links to democrats is now formally asking the dodge appointed special counsel to investigate just this question. whether that was obstruction of justice. those were big questions. we only did two today. send me your new ones or tweet at the #thepoint. and we might answer your question on next sunday's show. coming up, we go deeper into the russia side of all. this what we now know and how does the russia inquiry move forward, including what do russian dissidents advise americans to do. have i journalist marcia guee guessson who predicted some of the very things that happened this week. that's next.

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masha gessen knows autocracy firsthand. i originally spoke with her before i visited moscow, which was before our election. and she had some reassuring words about a potential trump presidency. >> i feel like we're staring into an abyss. >> now that we're actually plummeting into that abyss, i sought out masha again for more of her comforting insights. this time i took her to the only place i feel truly safe. >> hey, julie b. >> my subterranean panic room. >> this way. what is the recipe for successfully resisting an autocracy. >> i had to flee my country. >> okay. >> most efforts to successfully resist that i know of failed. >> well, thanks for joining us. >> bunker rooms aside, masha gessen considered donald trump to not only be a man who ran for president and won, but what she calls an autocrat.

in fact, she wrote a survival guide davis the election. it compares instincts to putin and offered rules like institutions will not save you. it took putin a year to take over the russian media and four years to dismantle its electoral system. the judiciary collapsed unnoticed. she also predicted trump's recent threats to press briefings. quote, the national press is likely to be among the first victims of trumpism. there is no law that requires the president to hold daily briefings. none that guarantees media access to the white house. masha gessen is the author of several books on russia, including the man without a face: the unlikely rise of vladimir putin. david corn joins our panel as well. and new to the conversation is luke deem bosque who served as deputy attorney general for national security and has a deep understanding of these issues. masha, how were you able to predict both the legal and media decisions that donald trump has now made in the past few weeks?

>> well, what i was thinking about, you know, that piece was about trying to exercise my imagination and see what could actually happen. we could be fairly certain of what his intentions were, what his instincts were, rather. so i tried to figure out what it was that he could do with the tools that he has. so the vulnerabilities are were there norms and not law, right? and that's why i thought of the white house press briefings. that's why i thought of ethics rules. the other thing was i thought the vulnerabilities are always -- and this is not just true of autocrats. vulnerabilities are always where there has been most recent change. so because there was so much social change in the area of lgbt rights, i thought that would be the first place he would go, even though he had

used pro-lgbt rhetoric in his campaign. and sure enough, that vulnerability proved too tempting to not use. >> david, when you think about what trump is doing and how widely different the public reactions are, we have heard endless essays and punditry about what supporters, we're told that before the data is gathered. but we're told there are people who will always assume the worst of him there is nothing progressive about assuming guilt rather than gathering fax. and then you look at masha's idea that is playing out, the president is willing to delight in scorning norms. >> i think one of the things that he is doing that is perhaps most damaging is basically denying there is anything called truth. it's all how he sees it. whether it's 1.5 million people

at the inauguration or 3.5 illegal voters who don't exist. and insisting if you don't believe what he says, you're reading fake news or you're part of fake news. i don't want to spoil anything. but the new season of "fargo" is excellent. and this past episode there was a character, a russian who says, you know, there is god's truth and there is putin's truth. and that really gets to the essence. because you can't have a civil society. you can't have a national debate, a national discourse if you don't agree on some fundamental facts and precepts. and so sort of knocking at those, he is really taking away the ability for us to have an honest conversation in this country. >> luke, i wonder if you could expound on the framework masha just provided, the idea of norms as different than laws. because lawyers rely on what's called good faith, which i think speaks to that. that if someone has demonstrated some credibility, you can work in good faith rather than

treating everything as a debatable proposition. do you think that norm here is in danger? >> well, ari, if we approach it the right way, it shouldn't be. the norms are often the prela prelaid -- prelude. we try very hard as a country to spread those values around the world. and those have benefit for civil society. i worked extensively on child protection, human trafficking and a range of other issues that ngos and others in places like russia that are really the champions of. so you start with norms. and you hope to build toward common ground on laws. >> i don't follow your answer. what i'm asking is if the president says he might have wiretapped the fbi director and used that against him, that alone doesn't violate a law. for example, in d.c., we researched this. it's a one-party consent which means you can do that. but it certainly violates a norm. and that's a bad thing, no?

>> well, you know, i don't want to comment on the specific incident. but i think you've heard many people in the past weeks say that there are ways of being picked up collaterally on an intercept that is lawful. so, you know, that may be a surprise from a norms standpoint to some. but i think it's an everyday occurrence that there are interceptions to national security authorities. >> that's not what we're talking about that. we're not talking about national security surveillance. we're talking about donald trump who has a history of wiretapping people in business, threatening or appearing to suggest the tapes exist. i guess if you're not comfortable, that's fine. but i don't want you to misstate it pour the benefit of our audience. david? >> well, to me, donald trump is violating lots of norms. you've been reporting in washington for a long time, and so have i. if there is a certain understanding that politicians get to spin facts their way to a certain degree. and all politicians abuse that and lie whether they're

democratic or republicans from time to time. but we have with donald trump a fellow who seems untethered from reality, who insist on his facts whether it's the wiretapping example you raised or what he has said repeat tlad is wrong about the health care bill that he supports. and that's sort of a true violation of a norm that even in a contentious politically divided culture, that you don't go too far in stating things that are patently untrue. >> right. >> and he is violating that norm. and the people around him are enabling him whether they're republicans on the hill or sean spicer from the podium. >> so masha, one response toe that is attorneys general from around the country calling on rosenstein to do an investigation that is independent. but you have been less than optimistic. because you say these kind of things don't actually work if someone is a quote/unquote autocrat? >> well, that would be actually confrontation between an

established institution and an aspiring autocrat. we don't know how that will play out. the problem with the idea that investigation can save you is that ultimately, unless the republicans in congress are willing to also take an independent position, and there is absolutely no indication that's going to happen, this is going to be tried in the court of public opinion. and in the court of public opinion, somebody who is acting in bad faith will often win over somebody who is not. and trump's willingness to outright lie and violate the basic tenants of american political culture demonstrates that. >> yeah, it's so well put. and it is eerie reading some of the analysis that you wrote. because it's so on point, although it's certainly not the warmest or greatest message people want to hear. thank you all for joining. next, we drive into the conflicts of interest that are casting a cloud over the white

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not only start out as bribery, perhaps, or as highly favorable deals, secret deals with russians, but that in turn can then turn into compromise. can then turn into compromise. >> it could? >> it's not just the carrot of i'm continuing to bribe it, at some point you have a stick over an individual that i'm going to out the deal unless we do this, correct? >> that's classic comromont. >> former trump adviser michael flynn failed to disclose tens of thousands he got backed from russian backed tv. another $500,000 he received to lobby for turkey. and paul manafort had millions coming in from ukraine. there's a new report saying the doj is seeking manafort's banking records. neither of those men work for

trump, but follow the money. take d.c.'s ultimate power couple who have white house jobs and the conflicts to boot. last week, the kushner family was caught invoking white house connections pitching business in china, including the visa programs. the kushner business has raised $50 million through that visa program. the company, though, now backing off. this weekend, "the new york times" reporting they're nixing events scheduled later this month in several chinese cities and for its part in china, this was interesting. the executives warning while the ban may sound powerful, there's no guarantee that investment also yield those promised visas according to the chinese global times. that's not all. "the wall street journal" reporting that kushner inaccurately left out key facts in his government disclosure forms, and left off about $1

billion in real estate loans. dorian, what do you make of that long list? >> i don't know where to start. i'm from chicago, illinois, and i know pay for play politics when i see it. in this case, the chinese case is interesting, because these eb-5 visas, basically you put up $500,000, you get a smooth road to permanent residency or citizenship. if you're a poor immigrant, no, not under this administration. you're not only prevented from coming in, but he's rounding up and detaining and trying to deport as many immigrants as possible. that is the current policy. >> just to be clear, you're saying it's not just oh, let's tighten immigration, but tighten immigration if you're poor and

loose knit if you're rich. >> absolutely. if someone in my family serves to benefit in this case, they got caught red handed in this case, in terms of chinese investors. >> david, part of the narrative that we were just discussing was the view that a lot of things don't change, that there's no shame when you expose something and nothing changes. i would note that at least on the optics, if not perhaps on the business, they did back off when caught on these issues this week. >> yes. first, let me just say happy mother's day to my mom who is a big fan of yours. >> my mom is here in the control room at msnbc. so hi, and happy mother's day to everyone. >> she's doing shots. that's great. glad you're getting work for your mom. while we're talking about nepotism, what we see in the trump white house is this -- while kushner stood back off of this one program, there's so much else that's gone on.

you said that this was a long list at the beginning of the segment, and it was long, but it's kind of short compared to what you left off, whether it's deutsche bank or eric trump saying to a sports reporter a couple years ago that their golf clubs have been funded by russians. so the financial ties from trump directly, who has 500 llcs or more, we don't know what all their actions are financially. and that's happening around him, is violating tremendous norms. every ethics expect out there, republican and democrat, is losing their hair because there are violations upon violations and republicans in congress are not paying attention to this, and there's no ethics police force that can lock people up for these violations. >> dorian, with jared kushner, if he has a relationship with

goldman sachs and it was hidden and his job in the administration is everything and nothing. there's a metaphysical quality to his portfolio. i just wonder how is it not a conflict? >> it's a conflict of interest for his interests. again, he and his family were caught trying to sell visas in terms of investments for luxury apartments in new jersey. but let's add in other pieces, as well. so we have the sons, who are supposedly taking care of the trump business, but experts around ethics said just do a blind trust. that will solve that issue in terms of possible emoluments clause, but he's refused. so time after time, right now he has a luxury property in st. martin for sale. what is to prevent someone from buying that property to influence him? >> i wonder where it comes from.

we got in mother's day, i know you also wanted me to get in a lil wayne reference. he famously said, too much money, it ain't enough money. if donald trump has billions and the kushner family with hundreds and millions or more, why take these risks? >> all i can think of is, trump and the people around him see the presidency as a steppingstone. this isn't the end. this is what brings them up to the level of true oligarchy, which they may not quite feel they've reached. and we don't know what his finances are. but we do know a couple months ago, a chinese-american woman bought one of his apartments from him, from trump organization, for $16 million. that's money going right into his pocket. and how many more deals like that are there going to be? lil wayne has it right.

i don't know why they need more money. >> david corn and dorian warren, thank you for joining. i want to show our control room, where everybody has a mom, including mine. happy mother's day. this is "the point." thanks for watching. "meet the press" starts right now. what's that? p3 planters nuts, jerky and seeds. i like a variety in my protein. totally, that's why i have this uh trail mix. wow minty. p3 snacks. the more interesting way to get your protein.

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this s this sunday. the firing of james comey. why did president trump do it and why now? was it based on a justice department recommendation? the administration said this. >> because of the actions the deputy attorney general outlined. >> the president accepted the recommendation of his deputy attorney general. >> then president trump said this. >> regardless of recommendation i was going to fire comey. >> did it have to do with the russian investigation? the administration said this. >> you want this to be about russia when this is about quote restoring confidence. >> this absolutely has nothing to do with any investigation into russia. >> that's not what this is about. >> then president trump said this.