when they happen. that does it for this hour. i'm chris jansing here on a beautiful spring day. joining me now kristen welker hosting "andrea mitchell reports." >> another busy monday. good to see you. thank you. right now on "andrea mitchell reports," the replacement less than a week after the president suddenly fired the fbi director. the interview process has begun to find his successor. ob capitol hill, even some republicans are insisting the pick should not be political. >> i think it's now time to pick somebody that comes from within the ranks or is such a reputation that has no political battleground at all that can go into the job on day one. >> tale of the waps. president trump dropped the hint he may have recorded his conversations with james comey. if that's true, could he be forced to release them? >> if they exist, congress needs to get them. if they're not provided willingly, congress should subpoena them. if they're not in existence, if this was yet another fabrication

by the president, he needs to come clean about it. and cleaning house. reports of a potential west wing shake-up has many asking who's in and who's out. >> the president is the ceo of the country. he can hire and fire whoever he wants. that's his right. >> i am devoted to helping the president achieve his objectives, helping him be successful. i have to earn his confidence every day. >> and a very good monday to you. i'm kristen welker in washington where president trump is putting his senior staff through a political stress test. among the pressure points, find agfbi nominee to replace james comey who won't be hit with a bipartisan backlash. make sure an the commander is prepared for his first foreign trip. and we will see president trump moments from now peeking at the national peace officers mechelleal service on capitol service. we'll bring that to you live.

but now, joining me for a conversation about all of this is nbc national correspondent peter alexander at the white house. and nbc news justice correspondent pete williams in our washington bureau. peter, i want to start with you at the white house. obviously, we were tracking the developments, the interviews over the weekends for the next fbi director. where do things stand? >> the bottom line is we know there have been eight individuals interviewed. those taking place on saturday. no word of any follow-up interviews since. the president was not involved in that initial process being headed up by the attorney general jeff sessions who is actually there at today's event alongside the president and deputy attorney general rod rosen stein. what's notable. >> i'm going to interrupt you. we'll go to president trump at the memorial. >> what a beautiful introduction. thank you, chuck. that was so nice. that was above and beyond. that's the way i'm going to be with you, too. and it's a great honor.

thank you very much. it's a great honor to address america's heroes on this most solemn occasion. words cannot express the depths of our gratitude but i hope that our actions will show you how deeply we care and how strongly we feel about protecting those who protect us. america stands strong with our men and women in blue, believe me, we stand strong together. i want to recognize jim pasco, linda henny, chaplain wiggins and everyone at the fraternal order of police for all that you do to protect the law enforcement of this country and all of our communities. thank you very much. thank you. thank you very much.

as long as i'm president, you will always find an open door to the white house. and you've already found it, believe me. mr. vice president, cabinet secretaries, and members of congress, we are gathered here today at the u.s. capitol to pay tribute to those brave law enforcement officers who gave their lives in the line of duty. on this police officers memorial day, we thank god for having blessed so many of us with such incredible heroes and we pledge our solidarity with their families and loved ones and many of those great families and survivors are here with us today. and i'd love to you stand up. families and survivors. what great, incredible people.

and your loved ones are looking down on you right now, believe me, and they're very proud. thank you. thank you. thank you very much for being here. whatever you need, we are here for you. and we are praying for you. as i look out today at this amazing assembly of police, detectives, marshals and sheriffs, i want to make all of you remember and heed this promise. i will always support the incredible men and women of law enforcement as much as you have always supported me. and you did. big league.

your presence here reminds us all of what is at stake on this sacred day of remembrance. each may during police week, new names of fallen police officers are added to the national law enforcement memorial. this year, 394 brave souls joined the over 20,000 men and women who gave up their lives in the line of duty to protect us. the names of these heroes are not only carved into that wall, but carved into the hearts of the american people. and by the way, the american people love you more than you will ever know. i can tell you that. though your loved ones left us

much too soon, the memory of their courage will live on forever. to see so many names together is to gain only a small glimpse of the debt america owes to those who protect our cities and police on our streets. we are privileged this morning to be joined by families of the fallen to whom we owe that ultimate loyalty. so many people, even back here. please know that you do not grieve alone. though we cannot fathom the depths of your loss nor fully appreciate the bond that forms in the precinct and between partners on the beat, your sadness is left and felt by all

of us. every drop of blood spilled from our heroes in blue is a wound inflicted upon the whole country. and every heart ache known by your families in law enforcement is a sorrow shared by the entire family of the american nation. no one asked these selfless men and women to enlist in this righteous cause or to enroll as foot soldiers in the eternal struggle against crime and violence. they joined the cause because their hearts were big and full of amazing courage. they joined because they cared so deeply for the innocent and helpless and forgotten. they put on the uniform because they believed to the very core of their souls that it was their mission in life to serve and to

protect. as the bible tells us, there is no greater love than to lay down one's life for one's friends. the names and stories on that wall are each a testament to this pure and unselfish love, and that's what it is. pure and unselfish love. and it is our duty as a people and as a nation to prove worthy of their sacrifice, and that begins with showing our police the appreciation they have earned a thousand times over. [ applause ] living in new york, i gained a deep appreciation and lasting admiration for law enforcement.

thousands of people are living and enjoying life today in new york who otherwise would be gone because our great police fought to bring safety to our streets and our communities. the entire world witnessed the heroism of new york's finest when they gave their lives on 9/11. i was there. and sacrificed so much in that brutal, horrible aftermath. now as president, my highest duty is to keep america safe. we will keep america safe. and included in safe means safe from crimes, safe from terrorism, and safe from all enemies foreign and domestic. at the center of that duty is

the requirement to ensure that our law enforcement personnel are given the tools and resources they need to do their jobs and to come home to their families safely. you are the thin blue line between civilization and chaos. . you come from every community and all walks of life. you are mothers and fathers and sons and daughters. you rush into unknown danger, risking your lives for people you have never met, people you don't know. performing your duty under the most difficult conditions. and often, without any thanks at all. because you do not hear nearly enough, i want you to know that

patriotic americans of all backgrounds truly support and love our police. a very sad thing is that many of today's politicians don't want to say that, don't want to talk about that. because it's not politically correct or they think it might hurt them with the voters. i will say it and i will talk about it proudly. i will make it the personal priority of my administration to ensure that our police are finally treated fairly with honor and respect that they deserve.

to all americans watch this event today, next time you sue a cop on the beat, take a moment to say two wonderful words which they so readily deserve. thank you. thank you. as you all know much too well, we are living through an era in which our police have been subject to unfair defamation anvillification and even really, you see what's going on. you see what's going on. even worse, hostility and violence. more officers were slain last year in ambushes than in any year in more than two decades.

including, and that's so the incredible to even have to be speaking about this -- the beloved officers killed in baton rouge, louisiana in yet another murderous attack of law enforcement, and we have some of those incredible families and survivors with us. thank you. the attacks on our polices are a stain on the very fabric of our society, and you are entitled to leadership at the highest level that will draw a bright line in the sand, not a red line in the sand that isn't gone over, but a bright line in the sand, and we will protect you. that i can tell you, and we will say, enough is enough.

the attacks on our police must end. and they must end right now. and just to show you, by the way, how much i love our police, i said, oh, i'm going to need a hat because it's so windy today. i said when i got out here, there's no way i'm going to put on this hat. so we'll leave off the hat. and this is for you, mica. that's for our beautiful mica down there.

we must also end the reckless words of incitement that give rise to danger and give rise to violence. it is time to work with our cops not against them but to support them in making our streets safe, not to obstruct them. which we're doing. we obstruct them. it is time for all americans from all parties and beliefs to join together in a simple goal to ensure that every child in america has the right to grow up in safety, security, and peace. true social justice means a future where every child in every neighborhood can play outside without fear, can walk home safely from school, and can live out the beautiful dreams that fill their heart.

like you, micah. freedom includes the right to be free, and i mean totally free from crime and from violence. ms13 is going to be gone from our streets very soon. believe me. when policing is reduced, it's often the poorest and most vulnerable americans who are the first to suffer. we have all seen the tragic rise in violence and crimes in many of our disadvantaged communities. we've seen the unbearable horror of the short comings in baltimore and chicago that have cut short so many lives and so many beautiful, beautiful

dreams. we cannot stand for such violence. we cannot tolerate such pain. we cannot under any circumstances, any longer turn a blind eye to the suffering that's going on any longer. and we won't. 's time for a grateful nation to join hands with our police and with our sheriffs to build the bridges of cooperation and trust and to make our streets safer for every man, woman, and child in america. and some day, many of the young children you are protecting will decide that they too want to be plifs, that they too want to be sheriffs. they want to be cops. they want to be cops. they want to protect people because they love people. and that's what they're going to do and they're going to do it

well. they're going to be great at it. as we seek this better and brighter future, we do so in the memory of these brave but gentle souls who were stolen from this world when they had so much left to share and to give, not only to us but to their incredible families. among them were patrolman justin martin and sergeant tony biminio who were murdered last november. patrolman martin was on the beat for less than a year. and leaves a beautiful, loving mom and dad, randy and jane. and thank you, randy and jane. thank you. thank you. thank you. sergeant biminio was a veteran

of 11 years and leaves behind his wife zeoy and his wonderful children, cameron, haley and maddux. ashley gwenn don of the prince william county police fell in the line of duty on her very first day on the beat. she swore the oath to protect and serve only a day prior to her death. one day. officer gwindon was dedicated to serving our nation. she also served in the marines and today our thoughts are with her and her incredible mother sharon. thank you, sharon. thank you, thank you, sharon. thank you. i also had the privilege to meet at the white house just a little while ago with representatives from the phoenix police

department, new jersey state troopers, and the ultimatester county sheriff's department who are mourning the deaths of state trooper frankie williams and sergeant curry winters. i had the chance to spend time with officers beautiful family, his wife kristin and his 6-year-old son micah who has my hat and he's now with us. micah, stands up. kristin, please stand up. great people.

kristin and micah, i know your beloved husband and father is looking down on you right now from heaven. and he's so proud of you both. thank you very much. thank you. we also remember those incredible heroes who were so cruelly targeted for execution in dallas, texas, rushing into a hail of gunfire, never to return. dallas police sergeant michael smith was a 27 year veteran of the dallas police. he was decorated, a law enforcement officer at the highest level. and even paid his own way to attend advanced training sessions. he leaves behind his cherished wife heidi and his loving daughters victoria and carolyn. thank you. thank you very much. thank you.

last friday in ohio, a gunman shot and killed steven eric desario. he was the chief of the kirkersville police department. he died responding to a hostage situation at a local nursing home. chief desario leaves behind his six and his wife who is expecting another child. our hearts break for the chief's family. we love you all. we love you all. thank you. to every child in america who has lost a mom or a dad in the line of duty, i want you to know, your parents are american heroes. american heroes. they died keeping us safe. they are the pride of our nation.

and we will hold them in our hearts always and forever. their sacrifice will never ever be forgotten. to everyone in the audience here today, i want you to know that my administration is determined, totally determined, to restore law and order and justice for all americans and we're going to do it quickly. and that is why i'm so proud to be here today with attorney general jeff sessions and homeland security director john kelley, two men who are deeply committed to the rule of law, to the rank and file officers who enforce it, and to bringing the violent criminals, drug dealers and gang members to justice, and

i mean bring them to justice quickly. thank you very much for being here. all of you at this ceremony the men and women who police the streets or who send our loved ones to work with a really very, very sometimes worried or heavy heart, every single day you do that, you've seen and you've heard things that no one else should ever have to see or hear. you bear this burden on our behalf. you have witnessed the evil of those who derive pleasure from inflicting pain on the innocent. you've seen a lot of that more recently than maybe ever before. it's going to stop.

and you've watched great, great people suffer unthinkable harm and unthinkable death. ameri america as a nation must always have the clarity to know the difference between good and ebola, between right and wrong and between those who uphold our laws and those who so easily break them. we owe it to the fallen to act according to our best and highest ideals. we owe it to their memory to put truth before politics, justice before agendas, and to put the safety and security of the american people above everything else. and we owe it to them to build a

better future for all of america's wonderful children. may today be the beginning of a new era of respect and appreciation for law enforcement. may this ceremony bring new hope to those in search of healing, harmony, and peace. may americans learn from the example of the heroes we have lost and always remember to trust each other, work with each other, and love each other. and finally, and so importantly, may god bless you, may god bless our police. and may god bless the united states of america. thank you. thank you. thank you. thank you very much, everybody.

>> president trump speaking at the national peace officers memorial service at the u.s. capitol paying tribute to law enforcement officials who made the ultimate sacrifice this past year. he called for an end to some of the suffering that has taken place in major cities across the country like chicago and baltimore and called for an end to attacks on our police, calling that a stain on the very fabric of our society. he again reiterated that he is the president who sees it as his highest duty to keep america safe. he said we will keep america safe. with that, i want to go back to the white house and my colleague peter alexander who was watching this with me. and, of course, peter, this service comes as the president is in the process of trying to pick the new top law enforcement official of the country, the new fbi director to replace former fbi director james comey. you and i started the hour

talking about where this process stood. bring us up to date, eight candidates interviewed over the weekend but the department of justice still has the lead on this. >> you're kaekt right. the president said we are going to restore, law, order and justice to the american people and we're going to do it quickly. one way of doing that quickly would about finding a replacement quickly to replace james comey. the president has not been part of the interviewing process so far. those eight individuals you see up on your screen we're told by a senior administration official he will likely become engaged for meetings when they've whittled it down to the finalists. " president saying he's likely to have a fast decision, potentially one he wouldn't rule out before his departure later this week. but this story line alone obviously is one that this white house wants to the focus on as a positive. his desire to find a good replacement. they're facing a lot of pressure giving some of theet comments and tweets from the president, not only his comments about

suggesting he may have taped conversations here at the white house including those with james comey but more broadly, the comments he has said on the issue of russia and what role that may have played in his decision making process. >> we'll be digging into all of that throughout the hour. peter alexander, thank you for that reporting. appreciate it. now i want to go to congresswoman stacey plas ket. she joins me here. thank you so much for being on set. >> appreciate it very much. >> thanks for having me. before we get to the list of picks that peter laid out for us, you worked with former fbi director james comey at the justice department years ago. president trump keeps describing this conversation that he has with director comey and he said that director comey reassured him he wasn't under investigation. >> sure. >> a lot of back and forth about that. you know james comey. do you think that's something he would have shared with the president? >> you know, in any investigation to discuss that anyone is a target now or could

potentially be a target would really present a lot of conflict as well as a lot of compromise. in the investigation. james comey when i worked with him when he was the deputy attorney general, was someone who is very, very meticulous about his work. so that doesn't sound like a james comey that people are aware of, especially with regard to the statement president trump has made about the loyalty. and him asking for a meeting to see if he could secure his work. when i worked at the justice department, the lore around james comey is his impeccable integrity and his desire to execute justice even above his position. we give the example of james comey fighting with bush administration over the torture memos and willing to resign over that. >> you've written up the issue of loyalty. how critical is it that the president choose someone who is not seen as someone who has been a long-time ally of his, someone who has autonomy politically and

personal relations? >> i think this next director has a really strong road to ho in terms of that. is he going to having to really reassure not just the rank and file but also assure the american people that he can be above and independent of the president. because now there is going to be a cloud on the individual, and i'm sure it has a chilling effect on the rank and file as to their own autonomy, their ability to create independent investigations. >> congresswoman, as we have this conversation, the ninth circuit court of appeals has begun to hear oral arguments in the case of the president's revised travel ban. we'll monitor that throughout the hour and bring viewers any updates we get from that hearing. in terms of the list that we've been talking about, eight candidates so far. which includes everyone from mike rogers to the acting fbi director, andrew mccabe. is there anyone on that list you say that person would be really good. mike rogers was endorsed over

the weekend by a group of fbi officials. is that someone you think you could get behind that would get bipartisan support? >> i think we're really early in the process. this is moving along at a very rapid pace. i'd like to see who all the candidates are. their background as well as particularly i think what is important are the hearings. when the senate will be able to question those individuals and ask them pointedly about their ability to act autonomously from the president, act even from congress. this is supposed to be a ten-year term. we want to ensure the person is able to execute. >> before i let you go, some republicans and some democrats saying the president mentioned the prospect there might be tapes of his conversations, recordings with james comey. do you buy into that and should he release them if there are, in fact, recordings? >> i couldn't say whether this president or not has been taping conversations.

people talk about him having a very open discussions before he became president. if there are tapes, i know that the house democrats as well as individuals like myself on the oversight committee are pressing the chairman that those tapes should be released. i know that there were letters written by the ranking member of the judiciary committee, john conyers, along with other individuals requesting that. and so if there are tapes, we should know and should be able to review them. >> congresswoman plas kete, hap. >> right now in seattle, the ninth circuit court of appeals is hearing arguments on the president's travel ban. joe fryer is outside the court following the latest developments. joe, this is just getting under way. what can you tell us? >> reporter: yeah, chris. in just a couple minutes ago, the judges came in.

we can seeing that for ourselves. typically, in a federal court case like this, there are no cameras allowed inside but interest in this case is so high, the ninth circuit court of appeals made an exception and wanted the public to hear both sides make their arguments and hear some of the questions had how high is the interest? we can see outside of the courthouse here a small group of a few dozen people, folks who oppose the travel ban have come out with signs that say no wall, no ban. they're trying to make their voices heard. meanwhile inside the courthouse, the hearing is just getting under way. judges say each side will get 30 minutes to present their case. the judges can then ask questions throughout that time period. it is a three-judge panel, all three of those judges were selected randomly. it just so happens all three judges were appointed by president clinton we'll keep tabs on this throughout and give you updates as we hear what's happening on both sides. it's not just the ninth circuit hearing this case. last week the fourth circuit

court of appeals also had a hearing on this issue and ultimately the feeling is that this issue of the revised travel ban will end up before the u.s. supreme court. >> joe, thank you for that reporting. we'll continue to check with you throughout the day and to track those argument happening now before the ninth circuit court. we'll have more on what's at stake just ahead. coming up, we'll continue to follow the investments into the search for a new fbi director. all that and more. you're watching "andrea mitchell reports" only on msnbc. eir expe. their leadership is instinctive. they're experts in things you haven't heard of. researchers of technologies that one day you will. some call them the best of the best. some call them veterans. we call them our team.

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president trump's job an probable has dropped to 39%, a historic low according to a new nbc news/"wall street journal" poll. to give you some perspective, president obama's lowest rating was 40% right before the democrats lost the senate and george w. bush didn't dip to that level in the nbc poll till october, 2005 after the iraq war turned south and after hurricane katrina. joining me to discuss all of this, contributor and long-time conservative commentator charlie sykes, michael steele former press secretary, he's also worked with paul ryan and jeb

bush and jim vanda hide, co-founder of axios. jim, these numbers come against this backdrop of all of this palace intrigue, renewed reports, your reporting over the weekend that the president might be looking to shake up his staff within the west wing. we've been doing reporting, as well. seems like it may not happen before he lives for his foreign trip. >> he's as frustrated by the poll numbers as any other run 0 would be. he's frustrated they're not getting anything done and feels ill served by his staff. he's been on the phone for the last four or five days with friends musing about a big shake-up. i don't know if it will happen before the trip. it's clear they want steve bannon out. that will happen. it's clear they would like someone else in as chief of staff. he doesn't like his press shop. he would like to be his own spokesman if he could swing it. one of the problems they're having and we're getting flooded with calls from republicans who would be likely candidates for the jobs and they're like would

i take this job if i know i'm going to get thrown under the bus and he doesn't want to listen to me? that is a huge problem for the party right now. you want to work there? >> pick up on that point. that's the critical point. >> this is a big problem. the problem isn't the staff. the problem isn't the plan. the problem isn't capitol hill. problem is the president. he's acting as he has for the past five decades keeping a loose organization, changing had i mind all the time. you can't get things done in washington that way. >> interest there people here saying to work at the white house, it might be worth it? >> of cures. there's always people willing to take that chance. i don't know they're going to get the quality of replacements they would if these people could trust the president to have their back. >> the fundamentally fix the problem, you've got to bring in somebody who has real at steuer. who has the authority to run the white house like a big organization. he doesn't want to do that. he's done it on the national

security side. if he can set up a similar process, they might be able to get things back on track legislatively. he doesn't want to cede the power and surrounded himself with some pretty weak staff. unless he brings in people with real clout with congress and republicans at large, you're going to see a problem. >> this lack of getting big things done. more broadly, some of those approval numbers that we talked about only 29% approve of his pfeiffering of james comey. how does he right this ship and also, how concerned do you think republicans are about the midterms? >> well, they ought to be very concerned about it. and plus, going back to this point about shaking up the staff, look, the problem is, it's not steve bannon as critical as i've been of him or reince priebus. this presidency is a direct reflection of the character, personality and judgment of donald trump. as philip rucker wrote, it's

like a pilot who takes the plane into heavy turbulence and blames the flight attendants when the passengers get jumpy. the other number to keep in mind and everybody is cooksing on an probable ratings, the number to keep in mind is the fact that more than 80% of the republican base continues to support trump. and i'm guessing a lot of congressional republicans are keeping an eye on that. as long as the base is solid for trump, they're going to be reluctant to break with him. >> michael. >> there is a bedrock of trump supporters that is not going anywhere. he could shoot a man in the middle of fifth avenue, and they're not going away. >> look at something that you wrote over the weekend, charlie you wrote if liberals hate him, then trump 34u69 be doing something right. what did you mean by that. >> well, this seems to be the attitude on part of a lot of conservative media who are no longer so much pro trump as they

are anti-trump. as long as trump is doing something that makes liberals head explode, it must be good and we must defend him. the problem with that, it's a blank check. it will take you anywhere. it means they're more likely to double down on defending things that are outrageous or indefensible. this now seems to be the model is that as long as you've upset the left and the media, therefore, we are winning. you know, that ultimately can be satisfying but a dead end. >> and to that point, that dead end point, jim, you raise the fact that big things aren't getting done. that means things like health care, taxes are sort of just stuck in place. quite frankly overshadowed this past week by the firing of fbi director james comey. how do they break out of the gridlock? >> putting the soap opera dimension aside, that has to be the biggest frustration for conservatives. when you have all republican rule, you can do transformational things in the city that can last decades if you play your cards right.

we're 100 and 15 days in. very little to show for it. if you stretch it out, i don't see how they have anything to show for it three or four months from now. health care is going to be hard if not impossible. tax reform more difficult than republicans think it will be. everyone is in "la la land" that infrastructure will be easy. it's not. democrats have zero incentive to help this president. they have every single incentive to block him from doing anything so they can win in the off year election. it could be a year of inactivity. >> getting anything done, getting big things done requires clarity and steadiness from the white house. they're not getting that. >> and principle. >> and they have to believe in something. >> go ahead, charlie. >> you have to believe in something. you have a republican party that is deeply philosophically divided and you have a president who is philosophically uncommitted completely. so in the absence of a value-driven presidency, what

you have is this situation we're in right now, the status quo. >> charlie's point is a really important one. when you think about health care, just take health care. why did president obama get obama care of? because he believed in it and fought for it and rahm emanuel and others are saying you're nuts to be doing that. because trump doesn't really have a philosophical underpinning to any of these policies no one really knows what he'll sacrifice. >> creating one more aspect, "the wall street journal" reporting today mr. trump had one or more recording devices that he used to tape phone calls from his office, the three people said. this refers to when he was in business. all former high level employees who worked for mr. trump over three decades. they saw devices in use recording phone calls. michael steele, this a reference to the fact that the president said there might it be recordings of his conversations with comey. how politically difficult is this for the president? >> it's incredibly difficult. one, it opens the possibility that these tapes will be subpoenaed that they will

eventually become part of an investigation. two, how is any member of congress going to trust they are talking to the president and the president alone when he's encouraging them to support a policy? this diminishes the already limited ability to trust the president. >> again, remember, if copy's allies leaking that he was asked three times to pledge loyalty to the president, if the president saying that conversation was taped, this isn't a soap opera. if that happened, if so maniy's allies are saying what's true and what trump is saying is true, you're in a whole different arena now. that's why i don't think republicans will let it go. lindsey graham was on "meet the press" yesterday saying if the tapes exist, we want them. >> great conversation. thank you for helping me break there down. appreciate it. now back to seattle. the ninth circuit court of appeals is hearing arguments on the president's travel ban. this case involves the lawsuitified by the state of hawaii. right now judges are questioning the attorney arguing for the trump administration acting solicitor general jeffrey wall.

let's listen in. >> i just want to point out, i mean, if you really take their argument seriously, i think they're committed to the view that under 1182f, even if the president got actionable intelligence tomorrow that let's say a libyan national are attempting to enter the country but the president didn't know his identity to commit a terrorist act, they would say, the president can't suspend entry because that's a nationality based distinction. that would race constitutional concerns. courts have never read the statutes to conflict in that way. >> solicitor general wall, if i could interject a question on the merits here. the executive order sets out national security justifications. but how is a court to know if, in fact, it's a muslim ban in the guise of national security

justification? >> judge gould, that's the number of the case. and that's mandel. right? in mandel, justice justice mars if you will take even the briefest peek behind the reason that the attorney general has given you will see that it's not really why they denied him. they really denied him because he was a communist and he wanted to give lectures on communism. the court said we are not going to look at any of the evidence. this is rational basis review. is it bona fide? does it bury rational to what the court has done. this court has said this rational basis review. i think the benefit of that standard is it doesn't call on courts to make these sorts of determinations that they are ill equipped to do. the flip side is what the

plaintiffs want in the washington case. they asked for up to a year of discovery and up to 30 depositions to find out exactly what was in the heads and motives of the people framing this and that is the road that in mandel the supreme court clearly said it was not going to go down subject to the nary bad faith exception where you have an affirmative showing of bad faith. here you would need official capacity statements unequivocal post inauguration to show president and members of the cabinet were acting in bad faith. >> let me ask the same question that my friend robert king asked you a week ago. has the president ever disavowed his campaign statements? has he stood up and said i said before i wanted to ban all members of the islamic faith from entering the united states of america. i was wrong. i consulted with lawyers.

i am now addressing it simply to security needs? has he ever said anything approaching that? >> yes, he has said several things approaching that. the breast is probably the southeastern legal foundation brief. part three shows over time the president clarified that what he was talking about were islamic terrorist groups and the countries that sponsor them. really the one post inauguration statement they've got that we all know what that means i encourage the court to look at the ceremony in which the president signed that executive order. >> the second one? >> that is the first one. they don't have anything on the second order. if you said that is the first one and we will carry that through-- >> statements his surrogates said the president is simply carrying out his campaign promises on this issue.

>> that's true because during the campaign he clarified that what he was talking about were territories in countries that congress and the previous administration had determined were dangerous. what he wanted to do was increase the vetting procedures. that is what he said three minutes before he signed the first order. >> sounds like you argue that our approach to these statements should be sort of an abuse of discretion review. if you can read the statements good or bad we should defer to the good. >> i think the value of the mandel standard is that courts don't start engaging this. but if you do and for the reasons we said in our brief we think you shouldn't but if the court were taking them all into account. the official capacity statements and campaign trail stuff we would still say the president clarified over time and in the

face of ambiguity about that both respect for coordinate branch and presumption of regularity would require not reading them in the light most hostile and least favorable to the president. >> you're right. we did receive a number of briefs in this case. and remind me of something that caught my eye in one of the briefs. would the executive order pass muster under your test today? you emphasize facially legitimate. >> i want to be very clear about this. this case is not and it were i would not be standing here. when counsel said below on page 116 we'll concede that an order like this might be constitutional in other contexts where you didn't have statements

like this that were attributing i think you know right then you're not anywhere approaching it. i cannot imagine that any court would say that the justification -- >> how do you apply the facially legitimate standard to an executive order like that? >> and you are watching oral arguments in the 9th circuit court of appeals in seattle. extraordinary that they have made this decision to allow cameras so that we can watch this live. you just witnessed a critical moment when judge gould asked a question how is the court to know if this is effectively a muslim ban in the national security justification and asked if the president ever disavowed campaign statements and did call for a muslim ban. joining me now is msnbc's chief

legal correspondent. what were your take away snz. >> what we are hearing is the trump justice department making the argument that basically the courts should not look beyond the four corners of text of the executive order of the revised travel ban. what comes out to me is they are going hard on that right now against what was pretty assertive questioning by the panel of judges who were very sympathetic to the cause. there was a bit of a legal discussion about if the lower court got this wrong, if they applied the wrong standard, if they should be easier on the trump administration then should this court just send the case back down to the lower courts. they went back and forth on that. jeff wall is the same person with that title that we expect to defend this before the supreme court.

you can see he is a good lawyer and was really trying to keep narrowing the focus of the court. the reason to that is obvious to anyone who watches politics. you heard about the muslim ban. the trump administration is worried that this is a wider revuk they could lose. >> thank you for helping us to understand what we just witnessed. i want to bring in jeremy peters, "new york times" political reporter. thanks to both of you for being here. jeremy, you are reminded when you watch these extraordinary developments and get to see what is happening. this was one of the president's key agenda items, this travel ban. the fact that it has been hung up in the courts sort of a metaphor for a lot of his agenda. >> and the haste with which this order was drafted and carried

out and that has led to it being stayed in the courts. i think you are correct in that there are few campaign promises that are more memorable or more foor for his supporters, the wall and the muslim ban. the trump administration can argue that that is fine. you don't look beyond the four corners of this order for meaning. that would require you to ignore the president saying he wanted total and complete shut down of the muslims. >> your take away of this moment in general in which we are reporting on a potential shake up in the west wing. >> i think what i take away is the fact that you have seen this that people are trying to define trump before and during the election and as the president and they are trying to say this candidate was talking about a muslim ban and immigrants and calling them rapists and murders who are selling to the american people this is what we are going

to do. large population of people that they are trying to do away with that character and saying president trump is a completely different person. what we are seeing in the courts is the judge saying has he done anything differently. it is striking to say while his lawyers say he is trying to change that. in reality donald trump is the same person as the day before the election. that is creating a problem in itself. >> we know in the campaign website he just took down that language. very briefly do you anticipate that the president will make any big shakeup before friday? >> i don't think so. despite firing comey this is a president who does not like to fire people. he dislikes confrontation. i think if it will happen it will be diminishment of certain rules within the administration. i don't expect to see anybody head for the door. >> great conversation. appreciate it. that does it for this edition of andrea mitchell reports.

katy tur is here next on msnbc. >> looks nice down there in d.c. i'm katy tur at msnbc news headquarters. several big events happening. the white house press briefing and president trump is meeting with the crown prince of . today president trump is trying to project the image of a leader in charge even injecting an element of politics into what was supposed to be a solemn memorial day service for fallen police officers around the country. >> i want you to know that patriotic americans of all back grounds truly support and love our police. and a very sad thing is that many of today's politicians don't want to say that, don't want to talk about that because it's not politically correct