accelerate the correction in the stock market that began today. any departures from the administration would be problematic insofar as you have a lack of confidence in an existing government, you typically have some market response to it. so this may be the beginning of it. we're about closing on the lows of the day. certainly the selling is catching up to the reality. and so there could be more downside pressure and it really depends on what the headlines look like in the next 10, 2 12, 24 hours. >> markets go up, they go down. this noise, this distraction doesn't seem to be going away. ron insana, thank withdrew you . this wraps up my busy hour for me. see you back here tomorrow at 9:00 a.m. thank you for watching. my friend, nicolle wallace, starts with "deadline white house." >> we've been watching the markets and listening to everything you had to say, it's your analysis that wall street may be losing confidence in the white house. >> remember, it wasn't wall street. you didn't see big finance backers pro-trump, it was when trump won and it was those policies, deregulation, tax cuts

and the first meeting he had in the white house that 9:00 a.m. his first monday was with ceos saying we are going to deregulate, we're going it make it easier to do business. well, the exception of saying we're going to get rid of don fra dodd/frank, sign executive orders, there are no signs except for positive enthusiasm and business sentiment that anything is going to get done and right now, you tell me, nicolle, is anyone talking about anything besides russia and comey? >> so, it's really this agenda that has now clearly stalled out and been overshadowed by scandal that has the markets shaking. >> quhoutwithout a doubt. when are we actually going do see that tax reform? you don't see steve mnuchin and guerre ary cohn on the hill working on this and that's what the markets are dependent on. they're losing confidence they're going to see that agenda. if that republican agenda isn't pushed forward, why are the markets going to have this accentuated boom with trump? it was based on promises and those promises at this point, there's no sign of them being kept. i spoke to a republican earlier that said, well, remember,

president trump put forward that tax reform bill. do you remember that -- i mean, that was one piece of paper that looked like it was written on a school bus ride. >> it might have been, steph. i've waited my whole life to say this, stephanie rhule, come on down. >> the price is right. hello, everybody, it's 4:00. we are on deadline. president trump just returned from a short day trip to connecticut where he delivered a commencement address making his first public comments since the bombshell report of the comey memo. >> look at the way i've been treated lately. especially by the media. no politician in history, and i say this with great surety, has been treated worse or more unsurely. the people understand what i'm doing and that's the most important thing. i didn't get elected to serve the washington media or special

interests. i got elected to serve the forgotten men and women of our country and that's what i'm doing. >> just what graduates want to hear, complaints from the most powerful man in the world. president trump walked back into a west wing in crisis over allegations that the president asked the fbi director to drop the flynn investigation and that he called him a good guy. trump confidants inside and outside the white house are desperately seeking a steadying force to stop the constant stream of self-inflicted wounds. let's bring in nbc news national correspondent peter alexander and julie hershfield davis with "the new york times." peter, in the middle after owl this, you have breaking news in the search for comey's replacement. >> reporter: nicolle, thashs exactly right, we heard from the that sean spicer when he was traveling back from connecticut with the president, naming four individuals here at the white house this afternoon interviewed face-to-face by the president to replace james comey as the next fbi director. those names include the former

vice presidential candidate, former senator from connecticut, former attorney general from connecticut, joe lieberman. nbc news, msnbc, in fact, joe scarborough of "morning joe" happened to be on the plane from new york to d.c. with the former vice presidential candidate short time ago. had the opportunity to ask him a question about this. he said if you're offered the post as fbi director, would you accept it? his answer was, "i'd rather not say." lieberman went on to add that this was not a position he was seeking. that he nound found it to be unexpected. he's one of four individuals who will be there today. andrew mccabe, former governor of oklahoma, frank keating, he'll be here as well as a man by the name of richard mcfeely, in charge of the baltimore field office of the fbi. i just spoke to some officials here at the white house who say this is not the final four by any means. just the first four individuals that the president will meet with. they're names that were recommended by the attorney general jeff sessions and the deputy attorney general rod rosenstein to whom the next fbi

director ultimately would report. i guess ultimately they report to the president. it's rosenstein who oversees the fbi. that's where things stand at this moment. the latest information is those meetings including the one to joe lieberman to take place this afternoon. >> peter, i heard from a trump confidant today he's being urged by advisers in and out of the white house to pick someone who is not political. >> reporter: yeah, that's right. that's what we've heard privately and also heard publicly, lindsey graham among those saying in the past one of his colleagues, john cornyn, senator of texas would have a good choice under different circumstances. he has withdrawn his name. trey gowdy has also withdrawn his name. at this point, it appears most of the individuals, remember lieberman was last registered as an independent, aren't generally viewed as partisan politicians. we wait to see how joe lieberman's name will be viewed. remember, he was viewed one of the three amigos when he served in the senate alongside

republicans john mccain and lindsey graham as well. he maintains -- >> i looked through the life and times of the three amigos, my old boss, john mccain. julie, i want to ask you what you're picking up from the white house. my sense is they felt this morning that they had an opportunity to steady the ship then they were whacked with another story at 5:00 yesterday, that the hits keep on coming and this white house is having a really hard time finding any equilibrium. >> reporter: i think you're exactly right. >> i'm sorry, peter. i meant julie. sorry about that. >> reporter: oh, please. >> julie, let me get you in on this. >> i agree with peter and you, nicolle. i'm not sure there was ever a sense in the white house they were getting toward a place of being more steady. i think they felt very hunkered down and like they were already scrambling to get in front of or even just behind in a way that they could sustain the russia story and the story about the president having shared highly classified information with the russians in his meeting last week. and then this new story line emerges and the really difficult

thing here is, it's very difficult position to be in when you're in the white house, trying to figure out how to message something this difficult is that nobody actually knows what the president said or did. and they're realizing what a liability that is and how difficult it is to get out in front of these things when they don't have that information so what we're hearing now from sean spicer publicly and privately is people are reluctant to sort of speak for him in their own voices. we're hearing them speaking, you know, the president says this, the president believes that. it's really hard for them to sustain that given the news. he's leaving the country soon. they need to figure out way to steady this as much as they can. now doesn't look like they're going to have an fbi director to announce before that happens. >> i want to ask both of you this question, start with you, peter. i'm hearing, the volume on staff shakeup is always a constant. i heard it peak this morning. i'm wondering if you're hearing

more urgency. this comes all way from the top, the boss is not happy and does not feel well served by the current team. peter? >> reporter: i think that's true. not the first time we've heard that. it seal seems to have reached crescendo in the last 48 hours. the reporting i have and colleagues at the white house have, it appears they may be settling in for this year future, this window to try to get through this foreign trip right now. there are some rumors, some reports suggesting there could be firings happening imminently. right now per our understanding, a lot of people are hunkering down, trying to focus on the task at hand. as you note, the task at hand is an incredibly challenging one right now. this white house, this communications staff, is already, i think you could say, embattl embattled, deflated, exhausted. now they're about to embark on one of the most trips they will make in this early presidency right now. we were talks about the james comey comments a second ago. sean spicer was caught in a tough position where the white house hasn't put anybody out in front of this comey memo story because they didn't want to be addressing these anonymous

sources in effect on camera. they put out a statement disputing the accuracy of the portrayal in the memo. spicer basically said the president has been very clear in denying this story but the truth is we haven't heard a word from the president. notably haven't heard a word from the president on this topic even on twitter. >> julia, i want to ask you, too, are you picking up any sort of decrease in the vigor with which they're pushing back on the whole bucket of russia questions? >> well, i candon't know if it' decrease in the vigor but i think the tone has changed from a sort of absolute blanket denial and very impassioned this is unfair, we're going to fight this, to a very much more sort of lawyerly carefully worded that's not an accurate description of what happened. that's very different than saying that's wrong, that's false, and, you know, we're not going to dignify that which is a lot of the sort of bluster that we would hear from this white house on similar stories in the past. i think what they're finding is when they come out guns blazing

with a denial like that and go back and talk to the president or senior people who may know what happened, they need to be a little bit more measured and of course that makes for a much sort of more muddled message and particularly as they go abroad, they would like to be on the offensive. they would like to be able to be setting the agenda and setting the conversation for what the president wants to talk about and they're in a position now where they really can't do that. >> all right. thank you so much. nbc's peter alexander and "the new york times'" julie hershfield davis. thanks for being with us. i want to bring in my friend, republican congressman peter ki king. thank you for being with me. usually you and i see each other when we're both on delayed flights between new york and d.c. nice to see you here on tv. >> yeah. >> tell me why if the comey -- and you and i know the same people who would say the same thing, that it is very typical and very in line with jim comey that you probably know now for decad decades, i served with in the bush administration, to be a note taker, be the kind of investigator who takes note after any interaction.

i mean, let me put it to you, though, do you question there are notes, that the memos exist? >> i assume there's a memo, i assume there's notes. i've known james comey for years. the most part i've gotten as far as i know a very good relationship with him. i have serious questions about what's happening right now. the reason i say that is first of all, if this is as serious as it's being implied, then jim comey had an obligation to report it. to report it to the justice department -- >> congressman, how do you know he didn't? >> well, i can tell you from my knowledge he never told the senate or house intelligence committees and we are constantly reviewing the investigation with them. also andy mccabe when he testified last week before the senate, he said that no one in the white house had interfered with the investigation. >> maybe if the investigation was proceeding at the fbi, he didn't consider it interference. i mean, i think that this is what my old colleague, don rumsfeld, would call a known unknown, right? you don't know that he didn't turn these over to the fbi agents investigating russia

ties. >> well, actually i think what they're saying is he kept it away from the fbi agents. one of the reasons i'm hearing is he kept it away from the fbi agents so as not to intimidate them. i would thought he told his deputy director, andrew mccabe is number two in the fbi. i would have thought if he just came back from the white house and the president tried to influence the investigation, that if anyone, james comey would have told andy mccabe. now also, again, i'm not aware of ever having told the house or the senate intelligence committees, even implied or suggested that there was any interference at all. and also, to be honest with you, i'm not aware of evidence of collusion and i'm not sure what investigation they're talking about with general flynn. are they talking about the russian collusion -- >> obviously -- >> i'm serious. >> donald trump knew the investigation -- >> no, no. >> he cleared the room and asked jim comey -- jim comey's boss was asked to leave the room. the vice president was asked to leave the room. asked him to drop the investigation into flynn and said he's a good guy. you doubting that account? >> no, here's what i'm saying. there are two investigations. the first is on russian

collusion. >> right. >> i'm not aware of any evidence there at all. the second would be his conversation with the russian m ambassador and subsequent interview with the fbi agents. now, public reports say that those conversations could have, ambiguous. that could have been what president trump was talking about. i don't know. there's two separate investigations. i think the media is being irresponsible in just putting it all together. >> you think -- you tell me which one. if he's asking me to drop an inquiry into mike flynn, mike flynn was being questioned about his conversations with the russians. i mean, what -- >> okay. then that's separate from the russian investigation. nothing to do with russian collusion or the 2016 campaign. i think the way it's being presented is this is all one ball of wax. two separate issues. that has to be made clear. if you look at it in the perspective of his conversation with the russian ambassador which i think was entirely legal, this question whether or not how to the extent he did discuss any involvement as far as sanctions with the russian

ambassador, and, again, that could have been what he and the president were discussing and as to whether or not they should go ahead with that since there is this ambiguity. again, i haven't seen the full me memo, haven't seen the whole thing. i wish if this meant so much to director comey, that he would have at least told the senate or the house intelligence committees or told his own deputy director. >> well, i think it meant so much to the president. i'm not sure how much it meant to jim comey. he just took down the notes and put it in his drawer. it meant so much to the president that he cleared the oval office and asked him to drop an investigation into mike flynn. i want to move on, though, your colleagues -- >> that's important. if i were the fbi director an the president of the united states told me to drop an investigation that i was pursuing, i think i would have mentioned that to my number two guy. >> is that obstruction of justice? is that why you would have mentioned it to your number two? >> if he thought hit was important -- >> would it be important, would it be obstruction of justice if it happened? >> that's why state of mind is so important. if he was there, at the time james comey did not think it was that important, it wouldn't be

obstruction of justice. >> so it's only obstruction of justice if jim comey thought it was important enough to hand it off. that's what we need to follow. where do those notes go? >> that's certainly an indicator, yeah. >> okay. we're going to keep an eye on that. where do you think your colleagues are in terms of their state of mind about how the white house is handling scandal after scandal after scandal? >> we're talking about a different story. obviously, also, president trump is a different type president. >> you and i have had long talks about how different he is but he won. >> absolutely. >> i know you got people at your district who voted for him. so, but in terms of -- listen, i worked in the white house that was far from perfect but you all graded us on tv in terms of how we handle it. how is this white house dealing with crisis management? >> well, i always said you were great, nicolle. >> couldn't be that good. >> again, they're not doing that well. whether they have to get used to him, he has to get used to them, the fact is, no, actually none of this is being handled well but on the other hand, president trump, i've been defending him for the last five minutes but now i'm saying a lot of these

are unforced errors. these are -- can't have mike pence out there saying that comey was dismissed because of the -- >> right. >> -- you know, the a.g.'s memo and then have the president say i was going to fire him, anyway. you have to get a coordinated message. >> right. >> yaw canou can't say one thin day and -- this doesn't go to criminality or improper behavior but makes it very hard for people like yourself and others who served in the white house to actually defend the president. i agree with that. >> thank you so much. i hope we're still friends. thanks for being with us. >> absolutely, you kidding? always. thank you, doll. >> we're going to take a short break. when we come back, cracks in the firewall. steve kornacki identifies the canaries in the mine. later, is it time for the president to retain counsel? if reports about director comey's note-taking habit are true and the content as damning as it seems for this white house, could we be talking about obstruction of justice?

and what is it about this man that donald trump just can't quit? >> do we all love general flynn? tough. tough and smart. remember here at ally, nothing stops us from doing right by our customers. who's with me? we're like a sports team here at ally. if a sports team had over 7... i'm in. 7,000 players. our plays are a little unorthodox. but to beat the big boys, you need smarter ways to save people money. we know what you want from a financial company and we'll stop at... nothing to make sure you get it. one, two... and we mean nothing. ♪ ♪ ♪ everything your family touches sticks with them. make sure the germs they bring home don't stick around. use clorox disinfecting products. because no one kills germs better than clorox.

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we do business where you do business. ♪ ♪ congressman, if the comey memo turns out to be impeachmen? >> i don't have anything further to add. >> do you stand by your comments that you would call for impeachment? >> i have nothing further to add. >> whose word do you trust more, president trump or former fbi director james comey? >> i have nothing further to add. >> earlier today you said that the president should be impeached if the comey memo is true. do you stand by that comment? >> i have nothing further to add.

>> do you think the president may have obstructed justice? >> i have nothing further to add. >> do you still have full confidence in the president? >> i have nothing further to add. >> that was our own kristen welker chasing down justin amash on the hill. we have kristen with us. kristen,getting a lot of that up there? >> reporter: i am, nicolle. >> it's not you. >> reporter: it's not just me, no. i think the question as are getting tougher. it's getting tougher to answer those questions, nicolle. let me give yukon text for what we just saw, congressman justin amash was asked earlier by reporters if the comey memo is true, does he see that as grounds for impeachment? he said, yes. when we followed up with his office later in the day, they didn't back away from those comments. they echoed what we heard from them, they had nothing further to add and obviously the congressman had nothing further to add, either. he's not necessarily emblematic of the entire republican party, nicolle. this is someone who is far

right, he's someone who typically is critical of his own party and of the president, but at the same time we are seeing more and more republicans in the house and in the senate express concern and criticism of what they're seeing in this white house. senator john mccain, for example, saying that there are echos of watergate in what he's seeing. senator susan collins, she joins a number of her colleagues in calling on comey to testify here on capitol hill. you have three different committees calling for memos, recordings, more information about that conversation that president trump had with fbi director james comey. of course, the memo says that president trump urged him to back away from the investigation into former national security adviser michael flynn. so a lot of questions swirling here on capitol hill. and the pressure really mounting on republicans to answer for the president and i have to tell you, nicolle, they're getting more and more frustrated every day because they want to be focused on their agenda. instead they're focused on

answering our questions. or not answering our questions as the case may be. >> kristen, that was my favorite thing i've seen all day. i've watched a lot of news today. thank you so much for being with us. come back if you get anything new. >> reporter: thanks, nicolle. >> we're going to go to steve kornacki tracking the canaries in the mine, the republicans who may be the first to waver on the ft. >> the republicans aren't defending trump, but the question of will they actually break with him, will they actually defect from him on this? so give you a little bit of a cheat sheet. first of all on the house side, remember the entire house has got to face re-election in 2018. let's take a look here, what you see on your screen are basically 23 republican members of the house, all of them, if they run for re-election, will be on the ballot next year, all of them from districts that hillary clinton won. where hillary clinton beat donald trump. so, if you're looking for the first signs of republicans breaking from trump, you're probably going to see it here. and in fact, we are to a small degree, this question of should there be an independent

commission that looks at the question of russian collusion? not a special prosecutor, but an independent commission. that's about as far out there besides justin amash, that's about as far out there as you're seeing republicans go. see it right here, curbello from down in florida, a big clinton district, says yes, special commission. comstock in virginia. kauffman out in colorado. paulson up in minnesota. you got three in california. you got issa, you got knight, seven voices from districts that hillary clinton won that are saying, yeah, you know what, we need a special commission to take a look at this russia stuff. again, this is not a massive break from trump. if you start seeing more in these districts, it could percolate up from there. also on the senate side, kristen mentioned some of these. again, these all come with sort of asterisks. mccain, look, he's probably in his last term in the senate. he won re-election last year. probably not running again. he can be very independent. he's been independent in the past. graham, he's aligned with mcc n

mccain. heller, he's the only republican in the u.s. senate running next year there a state that hillary clinton won. so not surprising to see him joining that independent commission call. lisa more komurkowski lost a republican primary a couple years ago, had to win re-election as a write-in candidate. there's room for her. susan collins looks like she wants to rucn for governor of maine. there's a little more freedom for senators who have come out that far. we are not seeing republicans from sort of the next level defect from trump. we're seeing just the very, very beginnings of it. the question is, will it grow from there? >> all right. i'm glad you made your way back to the table. everyone, hit pause. when we come back, we're going to break all this down with a top-notch panel, friends i've dragged from far away. got it. rumor confirmed. they're playing. -what? -we gotta go. -where? -san francisco. -when? -friday. we gotta go. [ tires screech ] any airline. any hotel. any time.

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investigation? >> no. never. >> did anyone from the white house -- >> no, in fact, i want the investigation speeded up. >> did anyone from the white house ask him toend the investigation? >> no, no. >> any surrogates on behatlf of the white house? >> not that i know of. look, i want to find out if there was a problem with an election having to do with russia, or by the way, anybody else. any other country. and i want that to be so strong and so good and i want it to happen. >> president trump just last week said it pointblank, i never asked fbi director james comey to drop the russia investigation but new reports say that's simply not true, according to comey's records. just how much trouble could trump be facing? now to my panel, "new york times" chief national correspondent. steve kornacki is here. john, columnist for the "new york post." and my friend and correspondent steph ruhle. we had pete king seeming to dig

in. he seems to be on the defend no matter what side. >> it's 4:30 eastern. let's wait to see what happens at 5:00. >> right. >> because the stories keep dropping at 5:00. so i don't want to say that your show is going to be the news on the show will be preempted by future events. but it's getting very worrisomw. sort of like how in 2008 during the financial meltdown, 1:00 in the afternoon, the market would start going into this triple dip. that's what it's feeling like now. so we don't know where it's going. >> we keep saying, you know, we hasn't even sent any tweets out. great. so the cuffs are on. he's not tweeting but i assure you, in the dark of night when the trump comes out, he's going to be back on the -- >> the trump. >> -- the twitter, back on that twitter. when you saw him speak at the coast guard academy straight-up going no one has been treated as unfairly as i have. he's only digging in. if you're a republican who needs to get to your republican agenda to please your constituents who said i need something different, i need to get paid more, i need

health care reform, you're starting to worry when is that going to happen for my voters? >> all right. since you keep an eye on all things greenroom related, what is the -- so the picture that was painted for me today was of a very isolated sort of stewing president trump. what are you hearing about sort of trump management? >> well, the last two days, certainly the last week, you have heard a lot of that. that's been the backdrop to a lot of the news that has come out of this white house for actually a number of weeks now. so, i mean, i don't think there's any secret involved in the fact that there's fairly low morale at this white house. that he doesn't have a lot of confidence in the people around him. i'm fairly shocked at this point that nothing has actually happened. there's been talk of a shakeup for, what, two, three months now. and i think, you know, if he had people lined up that he could trust and that would be willing to serve, you get the feeling it would have happened by now. >> but that's a serious point. i mean, he's put the family that ran the business in charge of running the country. how do you think that's working out for him? >> well, he would say he habisn.

>> jared and ivanka. >> jared and ivanka would be the two. he would say there's separation. i don't think there's the crux of the issue here. i think what's -- the issue you have in the white house a kind of hodgepodge of people who have never worked together before, people who have never worked in white houses before and many people who have no real sense of who donald trump is. so it's kind of a killer combination where you have just a lot of distrust. a lot of just kind of amateurish operation going on. you know, when you combine that with what's going on with the media, just with the feeding frenzy and the volume of news coming out with the social media aspect, there's just -- you know, it's a recipe -- >> it's one of the reasons the markets -- >> go ahead. >> it's one of the reasons the market's dropping. president trump was never a big business guy. but people said, wow, look who he's surrounding himself with. rex tillerson, gary cohn, bringing in all these ceos. where are they? when rex tillerson, a guy who was with exxon for how years got on tv with chuck todd on sunday morning and did this, well, every day,vy a chance to impress

the president again and i start over, you haven't heard from gary cohn. last week when the president did that sfwinterview with the economist, steve mnuchin sat next to him while the president delivered gobbledygook to the economist taking credit for coining the term, priming the pump. >> right. >> so people who said, wow, he's got these a-listers around him, where are they? >> don, where are they? >> well, he doesn't have a-listers around him in the white house. he has this mixture, he's got old republican regular in reince priebus, he's got steve bannon whose entry into politics was in august of 2016 when he started running his campaign. he's got his son-in-law, he's got his daughter. he's got a press secretary who is basically cashiered at the rnc two years before he was miraculously lifted into the white house. and part of the interesting thing here is that trump does have a problem. this white house is leaking like a siv against him. horrible things are being said. we haven't seen a white house turn on a president like this pretty much in my lifetime practically. maybe carter at the end of the carter administration. he's got a disciplinary problem

but he's the one who's making the trouble. all they're doing is reacting to the fact that he takes out his guns and shoots himself in the feet. >> steve, this is what i keep hearing, that what they can't diagnose and sort of fix is trump. >> right. i mean, this is not a situation -- you look at past presidents that have had the shakeup. everybody gives leon panetta credit in the 1990s for turning the clinton white house around. he basically had to take bill clinton, move him this way, point him in that direction and then bill clinton knew what to do. the common thread in the cases where the shakeup works is you have a president who is committed to working within the existing washington infrastructure who sort of has a basic respect acknowledgement, understanding, of all the institutions, of all the levers of power, of the limits that come with those levers and who wants to navigate within that. the question then becomes can you put people around that president who know how to navigate it, not to step -- >> who might it be? >> the whole point is donald trump is not playing that game. he's not committed to working with institutions of washington. he seems unaware of, oblivious

to, indifferent to the institutions of washington. the levers of power, how they work, where the trip wires are. if that's who the president is, the president doesn't know and doesn't care that he doesn't know, then it doesn't matter who you put around him. he's still the president. >> a businessman president who's got a business management problem. that's the irony. >> i would also -- i would say that it's too easy to say i am not of washington. i don't do things -- >> they all say that, right? >> first of all, they all say that. he said today at the coast guard, i'm not a special interest guy. i mean, that's -- it's not a defense for anything. these are sort of objective words. i mean, descriptively, he's wasting a lot of time. >> right. >> i mean, yes, these are all very serious questions. legislatively on the calendar, if you look at now, you know, four months have passed pretty much since he's been in office. i mean, these are really, really important months as far as getting things done. >> we should remember the white house is closely analogous to this, was the first year of the clinton white house. a terrible first three months. if you read george

stephanopoulos' memoir, it's eerily similar. he had a bad -- he had a bad chief of staff. he had to -- his best friend from when he was 5 years old, he had to replace him. as steve mentioned, you know, he put his wife in charge of health care care. that was a mistake. there's all sorts of stuff going on. what happened? they were shellacked, massacred in the midterm elections. >> all right. hit pause. we got to hit pause. no one's going anywhere. steph, thank you for coming down. we drag you down after double duty. when we come back, what could be an ugly legal fight brewing over obstruction charges. it's time for the "your business" entrepreneur of the week. michael is a frustrated musician turned urban winemaker. he started city winery to put together all of this loves. it's a restaurant, a winery and a music venue. he's taking the leap expanding now to five cities.

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or an allergic reaction, stop taking cialis and get medical help right away. ask your doctor about cialis. if i were the fbi director and the president of the united states told me to drop an investigation that i was pursuing, i think i would have mentioned that to my number two guy. >> is that obstruction of justice, is that why you would have mentioned it to your number two? >> if he thought it was

important or -- >> would it be important, would it be obstruction of justice if it happened? >> that's why state of mind is o important. he was there, at the time jim comey did not think it was that important, no, it would not be obstruction of justice. >> all right. that was peter king moments ago on our show. we want to take a closer look at this with paul butler, former federal prosecutor and professor at the georgetown university law school. ari melber, msnbc chief legal correspondent. paul, let me start with you. why is the white house saying today on background at least that it's a weak obstruction of justice case if there is one? >> well, it's because the obstruction of justice charge hasn't really been dealt with in this context. it is a criminal investigation of a president. what the statute says if you're guilty if you correctly try to impede an official proceeding. nicolle, lawyers like to parse words. one very legal issue was what's proceeding mean? does an fbi investigation count? the other more troubling issue

is what's corrupt. corrupt means you know it's illegal. they' there the evidence is more incriminating. smoking gun, trump asks sessions and the vice president to leave that meeting. sessions is the boss of the fbi director. he says if you're talking to comey, i want to be there. trump says get out. so lawyers think of that as consciousness of guilt. that might meet the corruption element of that statute. >> i also heard today that comey was known to be a prolific note taker, not like dear diary, here's what happened today, but like an investigator who after interviewing a subject or witness recorded the interaction. >> yeah. you know, i think that's so important. i think that comey exercised really bad judgment when he made all of those allegations against hillary clinton. he didn't follow the chain of command. he ignored procedures, but he's a man who tells the truth. if anything, he's too

forthcoming. so one defense that trump seems to be trying to allege is that this conversation never happened. again, i don't think there's any reason to believe that that's true. if that's all trump has to hang on to, he's in deep trouble. >> ari, is he in deep trouble from a legal standpoint if it turns out what comey recorded in his memos is true, that he was asked to drop the flynn case and said flynn is a really good guy? >> yes. the basic issue here is not what's in the memo, alone. it's what's in the memo combined with everything else including this unusual termination of the fbi director by a president who said he had the russia thing on his mind. so, i think it's that larger case, but you don't get a garden variety criminal, you know, prosecution against a sitting president over something like this, so, yes, it goes back to the congress, whether they see this as an obstruction issue. >> and what are the hurdles? i mean, what are you looking for, what facts need to develop for congress to get over some of those legal hurdles? >> well, they need a lot more

than a circumstantial case and a couple of dumb interviews, however harrowing it is for the country and people worried about nonpartisan oversight of the rule of law. they need probably witness testimony or something else. so it's memo plus, but those other things are around. i mean, let's not play naive here. general flynn has a public letter that says he's got a story he's eager to tell and wants some kind of criminal immunity for it. we've got the timeline here regarding how the white house responded. they got bad information about flynn. not only did they not fire him, we're now learning if u you believe the memo that the response f not hwas not how do to the bottom of the bad information but rather make the process mat basically uncovered it go away. >> in fairness, too, it's more than a couple of dumb interviews. he actually fired the fbi director. >> i agree. >> you have to -- the cause/effect here is the -- >> don't get hung up on those dumb interviews. >> right. >> i think we have to be careful, pete king said to you it mattered how comey felt. >> comey's state of mind. >> doesn't matter what comey's state of mind was.

matters what trump's state of mind was. trump is the one who corruptly impeded or didn't corruptly -- attempted to corruptly impede or didn't corruptly impede and there are two elements of that, right? one is the meeting, what he said, the other is the firing if he would determine whatever "if" in this scenario, he thought comey wasn't following through on he thought was a deal that he and comey had made. having said that, these are legal standards. impeachment is a political process. that's -- he's not going to get charged in the courtroom. congress writes the terms of an impeachment if there is an impeachment proceeding. it can follow legal statute, but it does not have to. they can say what he did was a high crime or a misdemeanor against the constitution in an effort to suborn an underling, so, so what the statute says specifically doesn't matter all that much. >> paul, i want to let you get the last word here. what are you going to be watching for in any subsequent

leaks or revelations from what i think we all believe may be additional memos from james comey? >> you know, as a prosecutor who's trying to mount a case, what you would love is a quid pro quo. that is some kind of threat from the president. if you're not nice to mike flynn, this is what i'm going to do to you. so, if there are tapes, if there are other memos that director comey memorialized about other conversations, those have to be subpoenaed. congress needs to know those and whoever's investigating this as a criminal matter, either the department of justice or as i hope, a special prosecutor, they need all of this information. >> ten seconds, ari. >> if fan fairness to the white house, there's also a lot we don't know because they're not speaking. so, a good lawyer would make the argument you asked the attorney general to leave the room possibly because he should be recused from campaign-related matters then you'd have to explain pence. this is a place where you have a real rough and tumble client and a lot of makeup lawyering after the fact. and that's bad for the white house. probably bad for the country,

too. >> all right. thank you, paul butler and ari melber. the flynn factor. up next, why president trump appears to be so insistent on protecting his former national security adviser. their experience is coveted. their leadership is instinctive. they're experts in things you haven't heard of. researchers of technologies that one day you will. some call them the best of the best. some call them veterans. we call them our team.

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where is general flynn? he's around here someplace. incredible guy. i love general flynn. we love our general flynn. how about general flynn? we love general flynn.

right? do we all love general flynn? tough. tough and smart. they might not like him that much because he's a little too tough. >> donald trump is sometimes described as being extremely described as being extremely loyal. when it came to aides like newt gingrich and giuliani and christi, one man stands apart. general flynn. he started showing up prominently in his orbit and quickly ended up on the short list for vice president. she worked at the justice department and the top spokeswoman during james comey's tenure at doj. i want to start with you. i reread a piece and i wonder what you make of donald trump's affinity for the man. >> well, i think they see the world a lot in a similar way. mike flynn was very loyal to donald trump. they actually don't go back that

far. they really started working together in july and he went on the campaign trail with then candidate trump in july. so they weren't together that much. i think that he, he was the most high profile person to get in trouble right away so that damaged his reputation a little bit. and then the investigation into russia. if trump's version of events turns out to be true, what is mike flynn really accused of? taking money for a speech? calling the russian ambassador at a maybe awkward time. so if you take his words as what they are, he was asking comey to, he was a good guy. let him go. i have three, i guess, interpretations of that. one is that trump was trying to pressure the fbi director and a lot of people in washington are seeing that as potentially an

obstruction of justice. but i think just as, we should also consider the opposite. that donald trump doesn't know that the fbi director is supposed to be as independent. >> i've heard this in the last 48 hours from the white house, actually. >> and? >> do you buy it? listen. you covered our administration. and i can't imagine a report he like you accepting the ignorance defense from the leader of the free world. do you buy it? >> i think it is very much a possibility. the other administration you referred to is exactly the opposite in their understanding of social studies, the three branches of government, we had a law professor who was president. now we have a person who is actually sort of acting like eddie murphy in coming to america. he doesn't really get the culture here. he definitely does not get the nuances of how different

agencies and someone like the fbi functions. i think he probably would have been a little more clever if he really wanted to -- >> if he wanted comey to do something. mindy, you worked inside doj at the beginning of the bush administration. and you know how that building works. and you've watched james comey. what do you think about the latest revelations about, the notes he was taking and about what we understand the president has asked him to do vis-a-vis the investigation? >> i think everybody will find out there are lots of things are partisan and then there are a few things that aren't when it is serious. this is one of those. anything involving national security, people will realize really quickly that the lakts come out. everybody will focus what happened and it won't matter whose party is where at that point. that will be the first thing surprises you. inside doj it is very much like that. everyone will focus the job. when they need to know what they

need to know, you're seeing it from the hill, the committees want to unearth the documents. i think it will quickly switch to a nonpartisan investigation. >> i hope you're right. what do you think about james comey and sort of, we've sort of witnessed his rise during 2016 election and now his abrupt ousting by this president. what do you think of someone who observed james comey over the years? >> he was always a really steady hand, a quality guy, knew what he was doing. understood the job in front of him. i think that's a key characteristic. understanding your job. a lot of people think you have a different job than you have and expect you to be policy oriented. i think focused on the law definitely what he had to do. i think he was a great choice at the filibuster. i think what we're seeing, what we're going to see more of, while he was there, he developed

a fierce loyalty among the people at the fbi. they see themselves as independent. they are going to act independently. frig being inside politics and organizations in the government, you can't always assume that you know what happened. everybody says this happened and that's why he let the hillary information out. this happened and that's why he did this. nobody knows. and i knowing james comey would assume he did what he had to do at the moment that he had to do it. there's no other explanation for me knowing him and having seen how he handled himself at the justice department. >> two women i would love to hear more from. we'll have you both back if you'll come. andrea mitchell, the secretary of state. this really happened. when we come back. yeah. are those the pyrotechnics that are gonna startle me from a distance? yep. and my impractical wardrobe changes, those all set? not even close. oh, this is probably going to shine in your eyes at the worst possible time. perfect.

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mr. secretary, vladimir putin is offering congress a transcript of that lavrov oval office meeting. do you think the russians were bugging the oval office? >> i would have no way to know that. >> what do you think of his offer? >> i would have no way of knowing? that's the kind of answer i get from my 5-year-old when i and if he stuck his finger in the guacamole. what kind of answer is that? >> that's a good answer. how is he supposed to know? how about nobody knows it because this is the united states of america. >> like sole people in the administration, he doesn't want there to be a news report in the next few days in which we learn the oval office has been bugged and then we have this sound bite playing. >> says cokornacki, the defenses

it might be bugged. i don't know if this counts as an answer. he spent his entire career shielding from that kind of reporting question. >> we're out of time. thank you, thank you. that does it for this hour. i'm nicole wallace. "mtp daily" starts with katy tur. >> if it's wednesday, can you believe it's only wednesday? tonight under obstruction. >> no politician in history, and i say this with great surety, has been treated worse or more unfairly. >> the president has committed obstruction of justice. >> we'll break down the legal arguments on whether or not president trump did in fact try on obstruct justice. >> i don't thi