what a pleasure. thank you so much at the end of another unbelievable day. thoughtfulness. that is our broadcast again on busier than average wednesday night in may. thank you for being here with us. good night for all of us here in new york. i am 44 years old. i know i look older. i'm 44 years old. 44 years ago today when my beloved mother was struggling with a fat cranky 6 week old baby me she found something to keep her distracted from how annoying i was as a child. because 44 years ago today in 1973, the televised watergate hearings began, starting today, 44 years ago, they ran live

during the day, as the hearings were happening and pbs ran them again at night, so you could catch them twice. when it comes to investigating the actions of the administration itself, particularly when it comes to investigating the actions of a president, everybody has recognized forever there is -- recognized there is a basic problem with the president being investigated by his own appointees in the justice department and forever there have been special prosecutors to investigate presidential scandals in various presidential administrations. in the calvin coolidge era, the teapot dome and a prosecutor for a weird postal service bribery scream i don't really understand but seems like it involved tons of money. in watergate in the '70s, there was a problem with the special prosecutor idea who nixon

brought in to work on that scandal. in watergate nixon fired the special prosecutor. he told the attorney general to fire the special prosecutor and he resigned in protest and told the deputy attorney general to fire the special prosecutor and finally got somebody else so he did get rid of him. congress was mad and really not happy about it. they eventually let nixon install a new special prosecutor for watergate but only on the condition the senate judiciary committee would sign off on it with a majority vote if nixon wanted to fire him too. the watergate hearings sprawled all through 1973 and he resigned

in 1974 and pardoned by his successor, gerald ford, so he couldn't be prosecuted. by the time jimmy carter got in there, the country felt ethics-wise, it was time for a hot shower. one of the big post watergate reforms, the ethics in government act, 1978 signed by jimmy carter. that actually changed the whole special prosecutor thing. it set triggers for circumstances that would require the attorney general to recommend a special prosecutor, it led a panel of three federal judges pick who that special prosecutor would be. jimmy carter signed that law in 1978 and it persisted more than 20 years. everybody hated it. everybody hated it. the first two special prosecutor investigations happened in the carter administration, one whether carter's chief of staff was on drugs and one whether his campaign manager was on drugs.

no indictments in either case. the inspectolaw changed ultimately into the independent council law, they changed the name of it, changed it substantively a few times, re-authorized in the '80s and once again in the '90s. the democrats hated the way it was used against democratic administrations and the republicans hated the way it was used against republican administrations. the thing was in and out of court all the time being challenged on substantive constitutional grounds. finally in 1999, they killed it, they let it die. great. everybody hated that. everybody hated that way of dealing with it so the independent council statute, it died. there is still this underlying problem, right? still the underlying existential conflict of interest problem what you do, properly handle it

when there needs to be an investigation of the president. if the department of justice is what investigates scandals, how can the department of justice, whose leader is appointed by the president, how can it be counted on to get it done properly, right and true? it's not a partisan problem or modern problem, an original problem, goes back to teapot dome and before that, that original problem still stands. when the special prosecutor became the independent counsel statute when that was left to die, the attorney general was janet reno, continual for the whole duration of the clinton presidency. her deputy attorney general was eric holder. under janet reno and eric holder's leadership at the justice department in 1999 after the independent counsel statute went away and the idea was

excised from american law, they had to put something in its place. so in 1999, under the leadership of reno and holder the justice department promulgated its new regulations how to handle that enduring problem about presidential scandals and who can rightfully investigate them. they wrote those regulations in 1999 and those are the regulations today allow us as a country to finally be sure the investigation into the russian attack on our election and the prospect the trump campaign was in on it is an investigation that will not be carried out by trump appointees. that origin story is important. i will admit the part about my mom and me being 6 weeks old is not important. that origin story in terms of how we got the power to do this thing that happened today. it's important that it came from the justice department regulation.

they have the power to do this on their own. this special counsel appointed today happened by the newly appointed department attorney general rod rosenstein, the one who signed this order naming former fbi director, robert mueller as the new special counsel spelling out the terms and what he will be investigating. the white house was not even notified that this was happening until a half hour after the order was signed. gone are the days when the president appointed the special counsel. now, the attorney general, jeff sessions, has said he has recused himself for matters involving the trump-russia

investigation. that recusal is very much in question because of jeff sessions admitted role in the firing of fbi director, james comey leading the trump investigations in the fbi. this order today, to hand over oversight tov those investigations, hand over robert mueller as special counsel, it wasn't signed by jeff sessions, by rosenstein who says he was acting as acting attorney general on this issue. we will have more on exactly what that means and why that's important in terms of how much we should all trust this is now going to be an independent and capable uninfluenced unimpeded real investigation. we'll have more on that coming up, in fact from a former very senior former justice department lawyer involved in drafting the special counsel regulations that made this possible today. we have this coming up this hour. in terms of why this happened and why it happened today, we

don't know exactly. we will get guidance. we will be speaking tonight with one of the gang of eight in the congress, the senior leadership in the house and senate and senior intelligence leadership, people who get briefed on stuff when nobody else gets briefed on it. we know they were briefed when it happened and we will be peeking live on this program this hour. as receny as five days ago, it was reported rod rosenstein did not see a need for a special counsel, to appoint somebody do a job like that. he wasn't inclined to make a change unless the fbi investigation appears to be imperilled. that was five days ago, today he apparently thought circumstances warranted changing course on this. he is due to give a classified briefing to all members of the house and representatives

tomorrow specifically on the firing of fbi director james comey. in terms of figuring out why he named a special counsel today and went this far and didn't tell the white house he was going to do it until after it was signed, what changed his mind about this? it's possible what happened over the last week was enough. it's possible the james comey firing and what has emerged since that firing a week ago in terms of the president's public explanation about the firing and allegation published yesterday by the "new york times" director comey says the president told him to shut down the trump russia investigation into michael flynn before he fired him and it's possible it pushed him into this special counsel by the deputy attorney general. what's changed is the progress of the investigations and what they're turning up and magnitude what they're turning up or lack of magnitude.

in terms of the ongoing investigations, we know three investigative committees in congress have now requested public testimony from former fbi director comey. senate judicia, house oversight committee asked for hem. those committees and more have also demanded documents from the fbi and the white house pertaining to white house meetings, and communications that james comey might have had with not just the president but also the attorney general and the deputy attorney general and even the people who served in those positions before the transition, before trump was sworn in. the congressional committees we can see them operating in public, we can see them demanding new testimony, house intelligence committee scheduled testimony with john brennan and see them making demands for documents and all these document demands they want in 72 hours, a week from today, we are seeing these committees get into gear.

some of them might even find the clutch one day and start to engage in forward motion but nobody guarantees it. at the fbi we know from public statements there is an ongoing counter-intelligence investigation into the possibility the trump campaign cooperated with russia on its attack with the u.s. election last year. we know that investigation, that counter-intelligence investigation will continue. but if you broaden the scope a little bit, we believe there's probably multiple investigations at the fbi and department of justice. nbc news reports tonight paul manafort, the former trump campaign chairman and michael flynn, former national security advisor are now both being described as subjects of a criminal investigation. that generally technically means they are officially suspected of committing crimes and both men deny all criminal wrongdoing their their attorneys.

we were first to air last night financial deals by paul manafort are the subject of a subpoena under criminal investigation and michael flynn investigation is subject to a federal grand jury subpoena. with this new reporting tonight, nbc news is broadening it out to report paul manafort and mike flynn are the subject of multiple grand jury subpoenas and records request in these criminal investigations they are now subject to. whether or not you have strong feelings about the eventual fate of paul manafort and mike flynn. the investigation into the heart of the matter of the president's campaign to the extent a real investigation into that will require testimony from cooperating witnesses in a position to see and know what

was going on, well, the former national security advisor and the former campaign chairman being the subjects of law enforcement pressure like this that affects the odds whether or not either of those men will ever surface as witnesses in any of these broader investigations. in terms of mike flynns, they get better when mike flynn's attorney says he volunteered in exchange for immunity claiming he has a real story to tell. here's some questions tonight. now that we know a special counsel has been named by the acting attorney general has named someone for special investigations. and the guest that can answer these question we have coming in tonight. i think they're all answerable questions and important as far as i'm concerned. as i see this. first of all, how will the

appointment of fbi director robert mueller affect the other investigations ongoing in congress? we really don't know how much the various congressional investigations have gotten done already. we do know they've been falling all over themselves in the past 24 hours to get congressional testimony from james comey at least, documents from the fbi and white house. whatever you think about the protect of those investigations does the appointment of special counsel change the pro-secretary of them get -- prospects of them getting those documents and continuing their work, question number one. also, what happens exactly to the ongoing justice department and fbi investigations? the congressional investigations, also law enforcement investigations. what happens to those justice department and fbi investigations now that there is a special counsel? do they proceed exactly as they

did before but now report up to robert mueller instead of rod rosenstein the trump appointee or does mueller's special counsel role materially change how we expect those investigations to proceed? also, what about the scope of this investigation robert mueller has been charged with. you have seen the remit by now in terms of the order they published establishing this appointment. you've seen how they describe it. the special counsel is authorized to conduct the investigation confirmed by then fbi director james comey and congressional testimony on march 20th including, one, any links and or coordination with the russian government and any individuals associated with the campaign of donald trump. two, any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation. that's what robert mueller has been assigned to do. as soon as this order was announced, i started calling

people to get advice on whether this is the right remit j basically, whether this is j if you want a robust unimpeded investigation, that is narrowly targeted enough to not be out of control and not be running amuck but widely enough scoped so that it can get at the heart of the matter whatever the heart of the matter is. i started calling around trying to get advice from people in a position to know whether this seems like the right scope. i ended up speaking with former attorney general eric holder tonight. he told me in his view the second phrase in the order warrants the most scrutiny. when this remit says any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation. check out coordination between the russian government and trump mpaign andny mtershat rise directly from that. he suggests it could have said instead matters that arise

directly or indirectly from that investigation. the special council could have had the -- special counsel could hatch had the option to get permission from the attorney general to expand it if he felt special circumstances warrant. is it clear robert mueller may investigate any potential problems involving jeff sessions and his role in all of this? is it clear his remit includes the firing of james comey the fbi director? that's another question here. is the remit wide enough. while that is a subjective view to a certain extent, here is a special answering question, if special council robert mueller feels this remit is not broad enough, if he feels he needs to expand his remit, if he wants clause 2 to say matters that rise directly or indirectly, can he request an expansion and who

does he request it from? answerable question. also what resources does he have an who approves the resources. we are told he's bringing his former chief of staff from the fbi working with him in his post fbi life at a fancy washington law firm and bringing somebody else from that law firm with him into the special counsel job. presumably that means he has hiring authority on his own terms working with him on this investigation. how many people does he get to hire and who decides how many people he gets to hire and who approves or is in a position to disapprove of his funding and resource requests. answerable question. anything else? oh, yeah. when do we hear? will the special counsel make a public account of his investigation or does he now get

announced, say, i'll do my best, and then he disappear force months or years, while we the public and/or congress are kept in the dark as to whatever it is he is doing. i believe these are all answerable questions and we will try to answer them. with me is miss horwitz. thank you for being here. >> thank you for having me, rachel. >> let me ask you if i'm asking answerable questions, do we know enough how it works in practice and supposed to work as a justice department regulation to answer the questions who gets to approve the resources, does he get to expand his remit and whether or not this is a properly scoped investigation. >> yes, those are good questions and mostly answerable. this has been a huge day in washington, huge newsy the deputy attorney general rod rosenstein was under such

pressure to appoint an special prosecute rb. you raised the question why today? i believe it's because there is this meeting he has before the full senate tomorrow where this was inevitably going to come up becatheyadeen putting pressure on him to do this. he chose robert mueller, who has so much integrity, really respected by democrats and republicans. in answer to your question, he reports to rod rosenstein although he technically reports to him because rod rosenstein is the acting attorney general because sessions recused himself. mueller is really on his own. it's his investigation. he's leaving his law firm to prevent any possible conflict of interest. he can bring in a team of people, as you mentioned he's bringing chief of staff. he can bring in other people and most likely will keep the fbi investigators doing the work. most of us who have covered him over the years know he is very

serious. he won't leak. there won't be leaks out of this investigation. he is not required, at the end, to present a public report. he is required to present a confidential report to rod rosenstein, who rosenstein at that point can make it public. you are not going to see bob mueller going out before the cameras, like comey did, doing a press conference on his own, releasing his own report. that will not be what happens. he will be working with people he brings in or the fbi investigators. >> in terms of the resource question, you made very clear he will be making those requests to rod rosenstein. >> my sense talking to people about mueller and his 12 year tenure at the fbi and political capital he has, it seems people

i talked to today if he makes a resources request, unless it is insane, if he makes any resources request or makes a request to expand his investigation, he's the kind of person who rod rosenstein both politically and personally would have a very hard time saying no to. is that a fair assessment what that dynamic, how that dynamic would work? >> i think that's exactly right, rachel. i think rod rosenstein formerly a u.s. attorney in baltimore and knows robert mueller. everybody in law enforcement knows him and respects him, i believe, from the people i've interviewed. i think any request for resources, if it's reasonable will go through. they're coming wake up a budget in the coming days for this investigation. although technically rod rosenstein could fire mueller, i don't think we will see that happen. we do know from the order that president trump cannot fire him.

he can only be dismissed by the attorney general. rod rosenstein is acting in that role right now. >> sari horowitz, this was very clarifying, thank you. i hope you come back in the days ahead and i inevitably get confused how this works. >> i'd be glad to. >> joining us now congressman schiff ranking member on the intelligence committee. >> rachel, i can't hear you. i'm sorry, i had someone else talking in my ear, please go ahead. >> can you hear me now? >> yes, i can. >> great. let me say as a matter of introduction, i had said earlier in the show we expected rod rosenstein the deputy attorney general to do a classified briefing on the firing of fbi director james comey for the full house tomorrow. i think i was wrong about that. he's briefing the senate tomorrow and expected to brief the house on friday. is that your understanding? >> that's my understanding, yes.

i think they were trying to finalize the house briefing on friday and i think that's the case. >> that will be specifically on the mat other the comey firing or trump russia investigation broadly or question about the appointment of the special counsel? >> i would certainly imagine now that he has appointed a special counsel that will be the subject of discussion as well. i imagine members will have a lot of questions about the memorandum he wrote and what went into that and lead-up to the firing of james comey, i think those will very much be the topic of discussion. >> i know you are highly briefed on intelligence matters as the top democrat on the intelligence committee, i also know you cannot talk to us about any of the things you are briefed on even other members of congress aren't allowed to know let alone us as members of the public. that said with that being stated, do you have any insight you can share with us about why this happened now? as recently as five days ago,

the deputy attorney general, rod rosenstein had been indicated to the press he saw no need for special counsel to be brought in. there had been reported the only way he would do that if he saw the fbi investigation being impeded. i don't know if that reporting was accurate five days ago but makes me worried what triggered this decision. can you shed light on that? >> i don't know how much light i can shed on that except i spoke with the deputy attorney general last week and among others i urged him to appoint a special counsel. the argument i made with him, it wasn't i doubted there were good career prosecutors at justice, there were many capable of doing the investigation but not enough to be capable of doing it, it has to be independent enough the public will have confidence in any decisions made at the end. i thought in the absence of independent counsel, in light of all the problems with the fbi, doj, recusal of the attorney

general himself the only way to have that confidence was with a special counsel. he listened to me politely and heard me out. i had no indication he was prepared to take this step. i think it is a great step and i think mueller is a very good choice and underscore what you were talking about earlier, if he wants to expand the scope, i think it will be difficult to say no to bob mueller. if he needs resources i'm confident they will give him the resources he needs and we in congress will make sure he gets all the resources he needs. >> as an experienced prosecutor and investigator yourself, do you fe the scope of his investigations and responsibilities was appropriately defined. when you look at that order, is that the way you would have written it? >> i think it is plenty broad for the work at hand. if there's any question about something, whether it flowed directly or indirectly from the course of his work, that's

something he could discuss with the deputy attorney general. again, it would be very hard to say no under those circumstances. i think by virtue of the broad respect he has and obviously close scrutiny we and others are giving this, i think he will have all the discretion he needs. >> in terms of your own investigation at the house intelligence committee and the other congressional investigations under way, do you think that the appointment of the special counsel will slow those down? will change your expectations, in terms of what you get access to and when? >> it won't change in the sense that our investigation will remain as important as ever. it will, i think, give a lot of us the confidence there is someone in charge of overseeing the fbi that will not be deterred and can't be interfered with. we'll also have a new point of contact. we need to try to do everything we can so that our investigation doesn't somehow interfere with what the fbi and the department,

through mr. mueller are doing. to the degree we can coordinate, we should and we will. he will now be the person to coordinate with. i don't think it will substantively impact what we investigate or how we investigate it but it does give me a lot of confidence that in many respects, the most important investigation will go forward unimpeded, that is the fbi investigation because they have resources we don't. they have a reach around the world we don't and there's no substitute, even with our best efforts for what the fbi can and must do here. >> congressman adam schiff, top democrat on the house intelligence committee. thank you for joining us tonight. i know you have a lot of options in terms of whether and where to talk about these things. >> it's my pleasure. much more to come tonight including what has happened in robert mueller's life since he left the fbi? it was an unusual and controversial -- slightly controversial decision when barack obama decided to keep him

beyond his 10 year term for a very specific reason. after his 12 years in the fbi came to a close he has spent the time in his post fbi life in a very interesting way that may be very important in terms of what's about to happen next here. that and more expert testimony next. stay with us.

robert mueller started at the fbi one week before 9/11 and served for ten years, after his ten years as fbi director were up, by then barack obama was president and he asked him to stay on another two years. he specifically asked him to stay on because the defense department and cia were both in the process of changing their leadership at the same time, too j and the obama administration reportedly worried that would be too much turnover in too many key national securities agencies at the same time. he got a vote in congress to allow him to extend his tenure by an extra two years and he

stayed on and left in 2013. since he left in 2013 and replaced by james comey at the fbi, he's been working for a law firm called wilmer hale, specifically the guy who gets called in after a big deal organization makes a huge mess and they need somebody to come in and sort it out and clean it up. for example, 2014, the nfl botches its investigation into a domestic assault by baltimore ravens running back ray race. the nfl gives rice a slap on the wrist and fail to uncover choosing who you believe, choose to ignore a video of the assault which proved way more vicious than the league initially let on after it became clear the league's investigation and subsequent handling was a disaster, the fbi hired robert mueller to do his own

investigation into the nfl's investigation. it was his job to figure out how the nfl blew it. that's one. last year, it was the vw thing, where they were accused of cheating on the emotions tests, he was appointed to facilitate billions of dollars of settlement discussions to hand out payments to volkswagen owners. selected for a similar role earlier this year when the airbag tata was seen to cheat on their safety tests and linked to injuries and 16 deaths worldwide. what a terrible things, call bob mueller he will sort it out. once again, bob mueller is being called on to function as an independent party. this time he has to quit his law firm job to do it because this time the law firm director will be taking over investigation into the president of the united states. tim, our historian and author of

"enemies a history of the fbi" and awarded reporter. what do you think? >> i think the presidency just got a chance of saving itself. >> bobby mueller the 3rd, three things people say about him. he was a marine, awarded the bronze star for valor for personally leading his troops under fire and rescuing a terribly wounded soldier on enemy lines. he's going to personally rescue this case, i think. two, he took over the fbi, as you mentioned, september 4th, 2001. the following week he was in

charge of the biggest investigation in the history of the universe, leading 4,000 agents trying to find out what happened. >> restructuring the fbi in the process. they moved all these fbi agents, thousands of them into counter-terrorism and national security. >> people are not that worried about bank robberies at this point and worried about now what. >> he oversaw this shift. >> when the present and vice president bush and cheney were flipping out losing their moral gyroscopes because of the fear and secrecy and ignorance during this time, bobby mueller kept his cool and his boss at the time acting attorney general of the united states went in and told bush they had to stop spying on americans with the nsa program, they had gone too far. bush and cheney and the nsa. they said no to the president.

>> in terms of mueller taking over here, there's interesting questions we will see play out in realtime, in terms of what it materially means to the investigations he's now in charge with this special counsel role. it seems to me nobody leaves an organization as big and fraught as the fbi after 12 years as its director, nobody else served that long other than hoover without leaving some really big footprints. how did he leave the fbi? how was he viewed in the fbi by current agents whether or not there when he was there, how was his tenure viewed? >> a lot of respect. a very rigorous person, speaks with precision. he would never gratuitously said a certain someone had been extremely careless not a federal crime, wouldn't have let that slip. i talked to him at length about six months ago. he and comey get along great but he wasn't terribly happy about the way that played out. >> wasn't terribly happy about comey's behavior? >> that particular instance i think he thought was poor judgment.

but they got along really well. having worked together for years. >> comey's public statements about mueller are glowing. >> and mueller's private statements about comey are glowing, too, i think what happens now the fbi sticks with its counter-intelligence investigation and mueller looks at crime. he looks at money. he looks at obstruction of justice. the fbi is set up as an intelligence agency. that goes against spies and is a criminal law enforcement agency. i think you have to divide the work here. fbi stays on the counter-in tell part, bobby mueller rides to the rescue to save the republicans from criminal abuses of power and obstruction of justice. >> tim weiner, the author of "enemies," pulitzer prize winner. i appreciate it. boy, was i glad you were able to come in here tonight.

the way we get special counsels in this country is relatively new. regulations written in 1999 after the statute previously covered independent counsels was allowed to die. we don't have that many examples to look back on to see how this special counsel thing usually goes, we're trying to learn how this process works and what happens next and expectations are. we have something that knows it inside and out because he helped write them in 1999 when he was top staffer to the then deputy attorney general eric holder. he professional served as acting solicitor-general in the obama administration and been arguing as a lawyer against the president's travel ban in the state of hawaii. >> is that a fair description you were involved in the writings of these guidelines in 1999? >> i spent about a year and a half writing these regulations. they were written for this kind of situation, everything from

the first lines of the special counsel regulations assume the attorney general is compromised and they provide for the deputy attorney general to take the place of the attorney general, then they play out a way the special counsel will function with day-to-day independence from the acting attorney general. >> when you say day-to-day independence, can you talk us through what that's really going to mean? i'm thinking about this announcement today from former director mueller bringing a couple staffers from his law firm, thinking of him showing up at fbi headquarters or doj headquarters trying to get up to speed on the status of investigations. what does he have to get approval for, based on you having written these regulations, does he operate on his own terms answering only to himself unless something extraordinary needs to change? >> no. he doesn't get to answer just to himself. part eight requires him within

60 days to submit a budget to the acting attorney general and the attorney general will decide on that budget. he will meet with bureau agents and other people right away with the investigation. if he takes a step and required to notify the diplomat attorney general rod rosenstein when ever he's about to take a significant step, if rosenstein rejects that and says, i don't want to do that. he has that power but has to notify congress. we wrote this anticipating something like this a kind of spineless majority party in congress not willing to serve as our founders thought in check and balance. that report has to be given not just to the majority members but the ranking members on the minority side, representative conyers and senator feinstein. they would get any report

rosenstein decided to overrule mueller with any significant step see. let me say it back to you to make sure i've got it right. >> if special council bob mueller makes a request of the attorney general whether scope of his investigation or resources or any other matter he needs to go to the deputy ag on, if the deputy ag says no, he has to tell congress at that time? >> not necessarily at that time. there are all sorts of law enforcement ropes it has to be delayed. we also wrote the rules to say the only way mueller could be overruled if he's taking a step against the established traditions and views of the justice department. it can't be a disagreement, it has to be a very serious violation, proposed by a bipartisan committee to us in 1999 and enshrined in the regutions. >> can i ask you broadly what we

should worry about here? obviously, a lot of people concerned about the investigations being protected from political pressure are welcoming this choice and specifically it's bob mueller appointed to this job. is there anything you're worried about you feel is not adequately addressed in the order in the way it's reported out thus far? >> mueller is as good as you can possibly get. the regulations are written pretty strongly. at the end of the day, our founders gave us a system the president can make sure the laws are executed. at this point he could order dismissal of mueller. only 120 days in, little would surprise me in the days to come given what we've seen. it is important to note that, yes, the president does have the power to get rid of mueller.

it would be a horrible disaster and perhaps the fall of the government, but he does have that power. >> thank you. neil, former acting solicitor general, who those these regulations more than anybody else. thank you. i know it's not your favorite place to be. much more to come tonight and because this is our life now, new substantive breaking news has just happened in the last couple of minutes. we've got that next. i had time e care of my portfolio, but.. well, what are you doing tomorrow -10am? staff meeting. noon eating. 3:45? uh, compliance training. 6:30? sam's baseball practice. 8:30? tai chi. yeah, so sounds relaxing. alright, 9:53? i usually make their lunches then, and i have a little vegan so wow, you are busy. wouldn't it be great if you had investments that worked as hard as you do? yeah. introducing essential portfolios. the automated investing solution that lets you focus on your life.

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6x the cleaning power in 1/2 the time because no night is complete anymore without breaking news from the administration. from the "new york times." michael flynn told president trump's transition team weeks before the inauguration he was under investigation for secretly working as a paid lobbyist for turkey. it came a month after they notified mr. flynn he was under investigation, despite the warning, trump made flynn his national security advisor anyway. flynn's disclosure to the trump transition was january 4th. it was first made to the transition team's chief lawyer, don mcgann, now white house counsel and that conversation shows the trump team knew about the federal investigation of

mike flynn far earlier than previously reported putting a much finer point on the question of why they hired him and why they didn't fire him until 18 days after the justice department came to the white house with their proverbial hair on fire saying your national security advisor has a russia problem. they knew he was under federal investigation when they named him national security advisor and now under the probe of possible conclusion with the trump campaign and russia and nbc describes he's a subject in the investigation and means he's technically suspected of committing crimes. the pace of the investigations have intensified in recent weeks with a veteran espionage prosecutor, brandon van grack leading a grand jury inquiry in northern virginia that is scrutinizing mr. flynn's foreign lobbying an has begun issuing

subpoenas to businesses that worked with mr. flynn and his associates. and a turkish businessman. this is the first time we have heard these details about this subpoena and the first time we have the name of a prosecutor apparently leading this investigation and apparently this whole thing was cast by somebody who has absolutely no sense of what is too much on the nose, we now know that prosecutor's name is brandon van grack and he specializes in espionage. despite knowing he was under investigation president trump made him national security advisor with access to all the top secrets.

never dull night. thank god dan rather is here. host of "the big interview with dan rather" on axis tv. dan is a veteran of covering watergate and much more. i'm really happy to have you tonight, sir. >> well, thanks. what a news night. almost surreal. and of course dangerous for the country. but in the same token, i do think there is something reassuring about this. for most of the early stages of the trump presidency, the question begged are we still a country of laws or have we become or are we becoming a question of men and man. and today's events with the appointment of this special counsel, special prosecutor gives a resounding answer we're still -- this is one of the things that unites us. we're still a nation of laws, not of men. and now facts are going to tell us what our destiny is and what our history will be. not donald trump's version of

anything. number two, these "times" stories are big stories. thank god for the american press, "the washington post" and "new york times" and others doing a good job. talking about when they knew that flynn was under investigation for serious law breaking, they went ahead and appointed him. and as you alluded to, this raises anew the question what it is that flynn knows about donald trump and his campaign that donald trump wants to keep hidden? obviously, flynn knows something. it may not be criminal. but if it's not bad news, if it's not something criminal or corrupt, why are they working so hard to hide it? number two, i think today shows us this is the day up until today president donald trump has had the ability to control almost every news cycle. from this day forward, he no longer has control. and instead, if you will, of being the hunter, he becomes the hunted.

and i think that's extremely important to keep in mind. from here on out, that's the way -- he can't -- he can't control it. also, have i this question, rachel. maybe you've asked it before. you know that meeting with the russians in which they didn't allow any american photographers, only aloud russian photographers. and there is some controversy of what the president said or didn't say. question, were the russians taping that? were they taping it? it is true putin give us a transcript. if there is a tape, let's visit. and speaking of tapes, now with donald trump since he is on the offensive, it's put up or shut up time for him on the tapes he has alluded to about his conversation with the fbi director. either he has tapes or he doesn't. and if he has them, he's got to come forward with them. >> dan, let me ask you about something that we heard tonight in very blunt terms over the course of this hour. i talked a former solicitor general. and i wanted him to be here because he was part of drafting these regulations that gave rise

to the special counsel. it's only been -- they use this for patrick fitzgerald and the valerie plame affair. other than that, it hasn't been taken out and driven around very much. it just existed on paper. i asked him if there is something people ought to be worried about, keep in mind despite people are reassured. he said you ought to keep in mind at the end of the day, if he wants to, the president can push this to the limit and the president can fire this special counsel. >> he can fire them? >> he can. and he said in that, i believe if that happened, the way he put it, i'll paraphrase, that would probably lead to the fall of the government and that would be terrible if that happened. but that's still an option. i am trying to recover from my failure of imagination for not being able to anticipate a lot of the things that have happened in the last 110 days. what do you think would happen if trump went that far? >> it depends onhen it happens. if it happens very soon, i think he might very well get away with it.

and here is why. out there in the country, particular in that part of the country that voted for donald trump, all of these conversations we're having, all of this television coverage, up to today, we'll what happens, really hasn't penetrated, made much difference. and i would say this. if donald trump's core support stays at, say, 38, 40%, then he might very well be able to fire special counsel, as your interviewee tonight, he has that power. but if trump's poll ratings -- and this is arbitrary on my part, if his poll ratings go to 30 or below, no. because the public reaction would be so strong. bottom line, if he does it in the next two weeks, three weeks, which i do not expect, he could probably survive it for at least a while longer. but make no mistake. in many ways, the dam broke today. tomorrow morning is different

from any morning we've had so far in the trump presidency. and i repeat for emphasis, he is on the defensive. but donald trump likes to fire people. he prides himself on i don't care what the reaction is. i want to fire. and in answer to your question, i wouldn't be too quick to say he couldn't fire the special counsel. >> dan rather is the host of "the big interview with dan rather close on axis tv, an american national treasure. thank you, sir. big nights like, this i'm really happy you can come in. >> thanks. >> we'll be right back with the other jaw dropping story we have learned this evening. stay with us.

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at your local mercedes-benz dealer. mercedes-benz. the best or nothing. obviously, the big story tonight is the appointment of a special counsel to take over the trump russia investigation. that news broke at precisely 6:00 eastern time this evening. at four minutes before 6:00 this evening, "the washington post" broke this. look at the headline. house majority leader to colleagues in 2016, quote, i think putin pays trump. literally, that is a quote from the number two republican in the house. majority leader kevin mccarthy. the post tonight reports that he said in the u.s. capitol to other members of congress, including the house speaker last year, quote, there is two people i think putin pays, republican congressman dana rohrabacher and donald trump. now this apparently reportedly happened on june 15, 2016.

and it's one thing for "the washington post" to report that you said that it's another thing for them to say they heard the tape of you saying that. the recording was listened to and verified by "the washington post." continuing from their story, quote, some of the lawmakers laughed at mccarthy's comment. but then mccarthy quickly add, quote, swear to god. house speaker paul ryan instructed his republican lieutenant to keep the conversation private saying no leaks. this is how we know we're a real family here. according to the post, it is difficult to tell from the recording the extent to which the remarks were meant to be taken literally. for context here, this is about a month before donald trump secured the republican nomination. but there was nobody else really in the running at that point. the day this conversation happened both mccarthy and paul ryan had met with the propaganda tactics the russians were using in ukraine and the way they were supporting populist politician. paul ryan was talking about that when kevin mccarthy brought up the russian hacking of the

democratic party and brought up his comment that he is pretty darn sure putin is paying trump if he is paying anyone. somebody recorded the whole exchange, saved it for almost a year, and then gave that reporting tonight to "the washington post." important enough they recorded it, kept that recording for a year and then gave to it the post, who published a story about it at about the same moment we got a special counsel on the trump investigation. because that's what the news is like these days. it's not a real news day unless there are two huge stories announced within minutes of 6:00 p.m. sleep well that does it for us tonight. we'll see you den tomorrow. now it's time for "the last word with lawrence o'donnell." good evening, my fri