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at this moment donald trump is far, far from home, landing in saudi arabia this morning on his very first foreign trip since taking office. one can imagine trump is desperate to flee the fire hose of problems his administration faced this week, starting on monday with this. sean spicer is still refusing to confirm or deny whether or not the president of the united states is recording people in the white house without their knowledge. >> the president revealed highly classified information to russian officials during an oval office meeting last week. >> trump tried to shut down the federal bureau of investigation probe, national security adviser michael flynn and his conversations with the russian ambassador. the u.s. yuz department named special counsel to investigate the possible role donald trump's campaign played with russia during and after the 2016 presidential election. >> the president tweeting just now, quote, this is the single greatest witch hunt of a politician in american history. >> the entire thing has been a

witch hunt. >> believe me, there's no collusion. >> president trump told russian officials with whom he met in the white house that jim comey was a nut job, and that fire him took a lot of pressure off the president. >> "the washington post" is now reporting that the russia probe, which is now in the hands of a special prosecutor, has identified a current white house official as a significant person of interest. the white house isn't disputing that report either. >> but hold on, there's one more thing. former fbi chief james comey will testify before the senate intelligence committee after memorial day. joining me now malcolm nance, adrian from buzzfeed, matthew miller analyst and justice department spokes, state department spokesperson and david french. a mega plan as it were. start at the table, malcomb. there's a piece in "politico"

that caucus about the way the u.s. is viewed by foreign friends and adversaries alike. wrote this piece, trump is viewed by european leaders as less dangerous and more in terms of words like chaos, circus and laughingstock. here is a quick quote. people are less worried than they were six weeks ago, less afraid. a senior official with experience in the united states told me, now they see the clownish nature. whereas another german said on the sidelines of a meeting, 70 stock of u.s.-german relations people here think trump is a laughingstock. can you assess for us whether what we've seen over the last week, sharing of intelligence with russians in the oval office, fbi investigation, the sort of circus around donald trump, is it seen as more dangerous to our allies or more ridiculous and a joke? >> it's interesting they should right that because former cia analyst did an analysis as the cia would do if the united states were a target by an

intelligence agency. initially we give everyone benefit of a doubt there's grand strategy, a plan laid out and executed in super villain style. we're finding out that's not the case at all. this is chaos. this is mayhem. this is a white house that has no internal organization, factions that are very clear and going at each other from one direction or the next. let me tell you, if this were some third world nation we'd be watching the army to see if the attention are getting ready to move for a coup. or if a guy jumps on a plane and flies to monaco for all the money from the state. what we're seeing is the united states being seen by the rest of the world as the clown show. i think on the other hand the reason it's less dangerous than six weeks ago is because they also see the brilliant checks and balances the founding father put into place coming into motion and feel the president will be given guardrails he's

never had before. >> as somebody who has spoken from the state department, you have jim comey, his testimony imminent. we found out he will testify before the public hearings. he declined an invitation to do so before the judiciary committee in private. your european allies know that, nayyera. on the plane with donald trump are some of the people who helped build this circus atmosphere, the steve bannons of the world, jared kushner, who is the president's son-in-law who has his own issue whether he filed his foreign paperwork for basically being an agent of foreign clients. stephen miller who had a lot to do with muslim ban. he's bring that circus overseas. if you were with the state department, how would you deal with that? >> very challenging particularly for the first trip. the first trip is for an easy ally country where the security

on your side, security on their side had a history of coordinating with each other and you have the ability to make things work. you don't try to throw your self several logistical hurdles like trying to visit the old city in jerusalem. historically and thousands of years very contentious. there's security challenges through the trip, political challenges going from saudi to sat can to israel. all places where words matter. every word you say has thousands of years of history, implication behind it. now we have a president who doesn't view teleprompter or reading from the script as a priority. there's challenges logistically. the circus you mentioned, there is a lot of people from the west wing to be going on this trip. what that indicates to folks who have done this before, you have people on the plane communicating back to d.c.,

communicating to the team on the ground. there's not a lot of trust if they feel like they need to be around the principle at all times. this is doing to be amplified on the world stage. >> adrian you were one that pointed out literally yelling and screaming going on between the trump team, some on that plane or on that trip overseas. is this a team that can spend the time to focus on that one page of bullet points with donald trump's name on them to make him pay attention or are they paying attention to their own personal issues, needing to lawyer up and deal with russia-gate back home. >> they certainly see the president values loyalty but has been at times throwing his staff under the bus. i never saw -- after the firing of koemcomey, i never saw the s shell shocked the way i did that way and then a week later when

there were reports he gave information to russian officials. these are calm staffers who are sort of trying to figure out what the president has done, how they are going to react. they say something one day. the next day the president says to lester holt, now, actually i fired comey because i wanted to and he mentions russia investigation. the staffers are struggling. when i was there with reporters waiting to hear more on the firing and on the russian involvement, i heard the staffers yelling at each other in a room that had steve bannon and sean spicer and sarah huckabee sanders. it's a time there's not as much trust as there should be. there's problems at the home land while they are abroad on a foreign trip. >> on that, i want to play dick durbin and claire mccaskill who came out of a meeting with rod rosenstein who is acting ag all things russia-gate because of the recusal of jeff sessions.

this is whether eahe's the pats or initiator in terms of firing comey in the first place, wrote that memo. >> do you believe the deputy attorney general knew before he wrote that memo that i didn't mean comey was going to be fired? >> yes. >> what was it he said led you to believe. >> he knew the day. >> >> do you believe he was pressured into writing that memo? >> no. >> he knew comey was going to be removed prior to him writing the hemo. >> donald trump and his merry band left behind rod rosenstein, the person left behind in terms of russia-gate, is his credibility damaged? >> absolutely. the fact he knew the president had already decided to fire jim comey and went along wit and gave the justification through his memo really calls into question his independence. what you have to ask now, did the president raise the russian investigation either in his

conversations with deputy attorney general, attorney general receivingses, did rod rosenstein know about conversations jim comey had with the president that were so inappropriate. the deputy general in this case was supposed to be the man who protected integrity of the justice department. a lot of questions about independence. rod rosenstein came up as crier prosecutor, u.s. attorney, institutionalist who would stand behind its integrity. adding fire to firing of jim comey, he gave president trump the proof he needed, let down people at the justice department who were depending on him to protect independence. >> david french, that leaves with us a problem where kraedability supposedly flowed down from the top has been harmed all the way down. roars donald trump, the president of the united states responding even until a pressor in colombia where he's supposed

to be talking latin america, he gets asked about his actions with regard to fbi director comey. >> did you at any time urge former fbi director james comey in any way, shape, or form to close or back down the investigation into michael flynn? also as you look -- >> no. no. >> david french at a time when he's taking the reputation and reputation overseas to some of the most sensitive regions in the world, does the administration have any credibility? >> well, you know, i think it has a diminishing amount of credibility. he's still maintaining a stronghold on his base. i think that's without question. there's just an enormous and increasing amount of scepticism out of virtually everyone else. i will say this regarding independents and doj. as far as independents and doj goes, they did take the ultimate tep they could take to tab

independence by appointing a special counsel who is arguably the most independent person in the executive branch now who can investigate the situation and investigate the allegations surrounding russia's interference in the election. so right now there is a degree of independence being exercised. ironically enough that independence is being exercised in large part because trump was so undisciplined. it finally forced the deputy ag's hand. >> lastly to you matt miller, you have the white house trying to use ethics rule to undermine that special counsel. your thoughts. >> i don't think that will fly. ultimately that decision will come to rod rosenstein to wave and allow director mueller to investigate not just the president and his associates but jared kushner potentially. that's a decision deputy attorney general made, given who

pob mueller is, given his reputation for independence and integrity, no reason he won't approach that fairly. he wasn't given the waiver, i think that would be highly questionable. >> last word, successful trip overseas? >> i think he'll have a successful photophoto-op. you see in saudi arabia he's comfortable with gillette and glamour of saudi arabia. the question is will anything come of it as he biopsy through these three countries but get a talking to at the vatican he won't like. >> thank you very much. up neck, we'll explain how special counsel will be the beginning of the end for donald trump. stay with us. we've done well in life, with help from our advisor, we made it through many market swings. sure we could travel, take it easy... but we've never been the type to just sit back...

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good evening, a former federal judge today was named independent counsel, special prosecutor in the iran case. he's 74-year-old lawrence walsh, former president of american bar association. with appointment of walsh, affable loyal republican a court mandate more far reaching than the administration wanted. >> i obviously will need information and cooperation and help from the executive branch of government. i will talk to whoever is necessary to achieve that objective. >> that nbc news report was from december 19th, 1986. it came at the height of what was then biggest presidential scandal since watergate. that year lawrence walsh tasked with investigating reagan administration sale of weapons to iran. dubbed the iran contraaffair, it will be remembered as one of the most complicated and notorious schemes in modern american history. in the end walsh concluded that

the reagan administration had illegally sold weapons to iran in exchange for the release of u.s. hostages held in lebanon. reagan administration defied congress by secretly diverting proceeds from the arms sale to nicaraguan rebels known as cont race. four teach faced charges and eleven convicted including reagan's national security adviser navy admiral poindexter as well as lieutenant colonel oliver north, later of fox news. poindexter and north's quirkses overturned meaning a $40 million investigation lasting six years ultimately resulted in zero prp time for anyone. reagan's presidency was tarnished by the canal but not toppled. fast forward to today. now that former fbi director robert mueller blamed special counsel for russia investigation drip drip echo of past scandals like watergate and iran contrais

starting to feel more like a flood. joining me jill winebank assistant special counsel in watergate investigation. thank you for being here. when reagan had issues he issue a welcome statement of e appointment of distinguished just, mr. walsh, has my promise of complete cooperation. i've instructed all members of my administration to cooperate fully in order to ensure full and prompt disclosure. that is not the way nixon reacted clearly to having a special counsel reacted in his case. how did president nixon react to the appointment of a special prosecutor. >> actually he did not interfere in the beginning but he did tonight wall throughout the entire proceeding. at every time we asked for cooperation, he refused. the courts ordered him to comply. it took public pressure and court orders to get the evidence we needed from the white house.

we did have cooperating witnesses who had mostly been fired from the white house before they cooperated with us. >> also you had people like i don't know dean, who eventually turned evidence against the white house. one of the things that has been remarkable in all the comparisons between what is going on between the russian investigation and watergate is the difference in speed. this was john mccain on wednesday talking about the current scandal versus the one that you were so much involved in. take a look. >> just another scandal that unfortunately continues every -- it's now accelerated. watergate took months. this thing seems to be taking hours. >> it's more than nine months. if you look at the time lines to when a special prosecutor was named into a president's term, with nixon it was five years in, his second turn. with reagan six years in. with bill clinton two years in when whitewater started that eventually ended up with monica

lewinsky. george bush, cia valerie plame, three years in. with trump it's 118 days in. it's orders of magnitude faster. >> well i'd reich to point out another look at the speed. in terms of how long it took us. we were appointed in mei 1973 and had convicted everybody by january of '75. new year's day the verdict came down. we got tapes, report to congress led to impeachment hearings. you compare that to the ken tar investigation which took years and years and years. most of these investigations had much more resources, many more staff lawyers, and have taken years. as you just pointed out, ended up with no one serving jail time. ours was actually successful in that. i caution that investigations sometimes do lead to no one

being indicted. we shouldn't prejudge what the evidence will show in this case, although from everything that i've read in the paper and seen on television, it does seem pretty apparent that this is an accumulation of episodes that are clear obstruction of justice. but i'm taking on faith that the things i'm reading are true. that's the job of the special counsel to find out if they are true. >> one of the other big differences, of course, at the time of the watergate investigations, you didn't have republicans in congress attempting to sort of there out contravening investigations, to divert to doing back and investigating something lyndon johnson might have done. you didn't have this attempt to throw partisan sand in the works. what do you make of republicans today, and their comportment toward this scandal with the president of their own party in the white house? >> obviously it's very, very different. you have a gerrymandered

congress where compromise is no longer required. there was true bipartisanship in the senate and house during watergate. senators urban and baker who led initial hearings into the scandal. there's a big difference between what congress's role is. they are looking forward to when they can do to prevent future occurrences like this, what laws need to be changed. criminal investigation, has there been violation of existing law. what have people done against current standards. it's important for congress to go ahead with hearings, for the public to have a full disclosure, have transparent information so they can trust the government. without that kind of trust, which will not come from the personal prosecutor, because that's done through grand jury, which is secret and cannot be revealed until the time of trial, it can be laid out in the indictment, but it won't really

play out until the trial. so it really is important to are both do forward and cooperate with each other. >> yeah. we shall see if that happens. jill wine-banks. it was great to talk to you. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> coming up, how one of my all-time favorite stories is back in the news. that's next.

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the at&t network is helping first responders connect with medical teams in near real time... stay with me, mr. parker. ...saving time when it matters most. stay with me, mrs. parker. that's the power of and. if democrats are encouraged by robert mueller's appointment of special counsel, it may be because mueller is seen as nonpartisan public servant. that reputation stems from his part in epic 2004 confrontation in the bush white house alongside another familiar face in the controversy former fbi director jim comey. it was ten years ago this week that comey recounted to senators a dramatic showdown between white house counsel alberto gonzalez and white house chief of staff andy card on one side and justice department officials on the other over whether to

review warrantless domestic program launched in the wake of 9/11 attacks. gonzalez and card tried to override then acting attorney general comey's objections to the program by going directly to his superior attorney general john ashcroft, who at the time was in the happened recovering from gallbladder surgery. tipped off by ashcroft's wife upset at her husband receiving visitors at such a delicate time comey raced to the hospital hoping to get to ashcroft before the white house aides. >> so i raced to the hospital room, entered. mrs. ashcroft was standing by the hospital bed. mr. ashcroft was lying down in the bed. the room was darkened, and i immediately began speaking to him trying to orient him to time and place and try to see if he could focus on what was happening. it wasn't clear to me eck. he seemed pretty bad off. >> comey made a call to then fbi director robert mueller who

ordered his agents to prevent any attempts to remove comey from ashcroft's hospital room. when gonzalez and card arrived and urged ashcroft to sign off on the wiretapping program, the incapacitated attorney general made it clear in no uncertain terms that he was deferring to comey's judgment. the white house ultimately renewed warrantless program without doj approval prompting ashcroft, mueller and comey to threaten to resign en masse. the trio actually only relented when president bush agreed to make changes to the program. pretty dramatic stuff. up next, why the next fbi director could give democrats heartburn. hanging out in here. so if you need anything, text me. do you play? ♪ ♪ use the chase mobile app to send money in just a tap, to friends at more banks then ever before.

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i think joe lieberman is a pillar of credibility. i think he would be a good choice. >> joe lieberman, i think he can do a fine job. >> i hope the president, i hope i don't nix his chances here.

but i hope the president would select joe. in many aspects, he's the finest man i've ever known. >> despite their earlier statements urging donald trump to appoint somebody above partisan fray, preferably someone with experience to be the next fbi director, republicans are super psyched about the possible pick of former democrat turned independent senator joe lieberman. al gore's running made in 2000, who has no federal law enforcement experience whatsoever and who many members of his former party despise, not least of all for killing an effort to alexander medicare in 2009. one quality lieberman does possess is, quote, good chemistry with the president, which according to white house aide is a key ingredient he looks for in a candidate. joining me democratic strategist john pierre host of podcast jimmy williams and jennifer rubens. thank you, guys. let's go through people in favor of lieberman pick.

this is rick perry, good old friend governor of texas. this is him on "fox & friends," on who he believes lieberman will be loyal to, loyalty as an important quality. >> he will make a choice that is loyal to him, loyal to the philosophy he has of making this country grade again. >> jennifer, is that the quality, the precipitation pell quality the president should be looking for in a new fbi director? >> has he learned nothing? >> talking pout rick perry. >> no. the fbi director is supposed to be independent. he's supposed to be experienced. listen, i really like yo lieberman for a lot of reasons, but i actually do not think he's the right guy for this job for the reasons republicans are saying. we need someone who is within the ranks or very familiar with the fbi in operation. we have no time for a learning curve here.

he's doing to be thrust spoke a whole variety of issues. i really think it would be good for moral of the department and both parties to have a nonpolitician in that role. >> yimz, one of the other criteria, at least before the name lieberman floated in, hard to believe lindsey graham and john mccain, who are lieberman's best friends and were his best friends when he was senator weren't part of floating the name. before his name was floated, someone like lindsey graham would say, no, somebody with law enforcement. this is lindsey graham and mike lee saying as much on "fox & friends" or fox news. >> i think it's time for an fbi agent to lead the fbi. when you talk about a new person to lead the fbi, how about an fbi agent who is above reproach. >> needs to be someone with a lot of credibility in law enforcement. >> the first one is on "meet the press." jimmy, they were saying before, it's thought that dprgraham was part of what scuttled john cornyn because it shouldn't be

politician but now that it's john lieberman they seem cool with it. >> don't forget former senator john lieberman did cross the aisle as sitting senator and endorsed barack obama, also sitting senator's opponent. john mccain, also a sitting senator. and said at the 2008 republican convention that barack obama is a very eloquent man but lacked substance, lacked a record and was not the right guy for the job at the time. they needed someone with gravitas. i follow up on what jennifer said. bottom line is just because you're a sitting senator for a number of terms doesn't mean you're qualified to be fbi director. i get it looks like a wonderful bipartisan pick, that's lovely. but jennifer is right. we need someone with law enforcement experience. the only thing that i can think of that yo lieberman did during his entire time in the united states senate was to be pro hawkish, pro war. that's fine. it's it. i'm pro country, too.

but that doesn't mean he's qualified to lead the fbi. i think that most of the democratic caucus probably agrees with that statement. >> i mean, that would be an understatement. joe lieberman is also the guy who took delight in thwarting his party on things like health care. he scuttled the medicare expansion. he had a vitriolic relationship with his party in the end and became independent. the other issue is qualifications. let's go back and look at past three leaders of the fbi and what they have done for a living before they got that job. jim comey deputy attorney general, u.s. attorney. robert mueller deputy attorney general, former u.s. attorney. louis freeh, judge, former fbi agent. there doesn't seem to be a great deal of qualifications there. you add to the fact since he left the senate, lieberman's job has been working at a law firm that happens to have a founding partner named p cassel who is

donald trump's own lawyer. >> that's exactly right. let's not forgot lieberman praised the hiring of flynn as national security adviser. that should tell you everything you need to know about lieberman. another thing too, joy, given everything we've seen this week, just this week alone, donald trump should not be allowed to pick the new fbi director. it just should not be happening. we all know what he's looking for. he's looking for loyalty. not loyalty to the nation, not loyalty to the rule of the law or the constitution but to donald trump. and ontherefore, he is not -- he shouldn't just be doing this pick at all. lieberman is going to give him just that. >> there's an article taking a cruel stance saying he would essentially be a patsy, donald trump's man, loyal to him, friendly to him and that's what donald trump is looking for. to her point, he did praise the choice of mike flynn and

mcfarland, the deputy, calling flynn a very strong leadership team for national security counsel. since he was on board supporting flynn coming in, is he disqualified on the basis of that and his lack of experience, david french. >> to be fair about the flynn point, i mean, very few of us, very few people knew the extent of his dealings with russia and turkey by that time. i would be really surprised if joe lieberman thought the same thing as of right now. look, the bottom line is lindsey graham was right and lindy graham was wrong. he was right when he said there needed to be a promotion i believe from within the fbi. a career agent with sterling record above reproach. i think that's the right move. he was wrong when he backtracked and said joe lieberman would be a good choice. key to me having this conversation, what are we talking about with joe lieberman? his record in partisan politics. who he helped and who he hurt. that's not what we need to be

talking about going into a new fbi director. i will note this. this should be of comfort to people concerned about trump making selection while trump is obsessing over this russian investigation. the decision to appoint the special counsel helps remove this and remove the fbi director from the kind of day to day control he or she might otherwise exercise. so again because there's no special counsel, which is what trump wanted when he put this in motion, helps protect the investigation itself from whoever trump chooses. >> but at the same time very quickly, jimmy, they are making this a decision republicans can pretty much get anyone through. they are making the decision based on who they can get through. rod rosenstein, deputy attorney general supervises the director saying he's willing to play ball with the trump administration. why should trump have any confidence at all. >> well, democrats in the minority. democrats change filibuster rules when it comes to a cabinet

post and nominees. so i'm a loyal democrat but i like to tell me children when they miss behave, you mi misbehaved. they should not change filibuster rules. we would not be having this conversation. they would actually have political leverage over who trump chooses, now they don't. all they need is 50 votes in the senate to get joe lieberman or whoever the replacement is for comey through the senate, bottom line. so in the end, the democrats can sit around and be oh, woe is me, this is awful. this person is going to collude with the administration and session, et cetera but they only have themselves to plame because they got rid of the filibuster rules. this guy, whoever it is, is going to sail through, whoever. >> i'm going to leave it there and let twitter deal with jimmy williams. back in the next hour. you deal with him. i'm going to remind you to watch

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there is nobody that feels stronger about the intelligence community and the cia than

donald trump. there's nobody. as you know, i have a running war with the media. they sort of made it sound like i had a feud with the intelligence community. i just want to let you know, the reason you're number one top is exactly the opposite. exactly. and they understand that, too. >> although donald trump tends to brush off claims that he's feuding with the intelligence community, it doesn't change the fact that trump's very words, actions and tweets have put him at odds with intelligence agencies since the november election. that's why when news broke he may have shared highly classified information with russian foreign minister and ambassador sergey kislyak, thought to be a spy recruiter, it did nothing but strain a fraught relationship. impact safety of undercover operatives and threaten relationships with allies abroad. his take in the op-ed, president's breach through the

eyes of a former spy against russia. joining me now author "how to catch a russian spy" and his former supervisor, former special agent scott olsen. thank you both for being here. "daily news," essential from the point of view of the people who do this work, why what the president did in that oval office meeting was so dangerous. could you summarize for us? >> absolutely. look, all of this is based on trust. and even if you don't disclose sources and methods or don't disclose very, very specific details, the danger comes in that one can assemble, just using open source information, what actually happened. so, as a result, you know, you could have someone come back and say, okay, we now know that in this cell, there is an informant, there is an undercover. and that is what's so dangerous. and look, all of this is based on trust, as scott can tell you, you know, you have to convince someone to do something that is sometimes incredibly dangerous. they have to go into a place that they're not supposed to be and spy for another country. and, you know, when you betray that and put those people in

jeopardy, you not only risk that life, you risk the ability to recruit, you risk the ability to retain people who are doing this. and you know, so much of this is just built on trust and word of mouth. and it certainly sets things back. >> and one does not expect that the president of the united states, the commander in chief, would be the one to put people in jeopardy in that way. let's listen to senator ben sasse, who was quite strong on this on cnn on tuesday, talking about that very thing. >> the american people need to understand why the direct disclosure of sources and methods or something that could lead to the discovery of our sources is such a big deal, because sources and methods are the lifeblood of the intelligence community. the world is a dangerous and broken place, and we need spies out there fighting for american interest. >> and you know, scott, david frum, wrote in the -- who is the editor of the atlantic, he was even more stark about it. he says american military and intelligence agencies must assume from now on that the president of the united states is a security risk. he cannot be trusted to protect state secrets. if you were still trying to

recruit the next naveed jamali to work for the united states, would you be concerned that the president of the united states poses the biggest risk to their security? >> well, the president and every other official that uses intelligence certainly has impact on the operation world. you have to remember, like naveed, all intelligence assets, they're civilians. they're not trained spies. they are being coached by the people that work for me, several years ago, coached naveed, but they're civilians. and they don't understand this world. and they are rightfully nervous to all of a sudden be a part of this world. and when they come back to you, hey, i just saw something in the news, is this a problem? it becomes a problem, simply because they view it as one. so, how intelligence is used, separate from disclosing sources and methods, how intelligence is used really impacts the operation aal environment, becae you're dealing with civilians.

>> and clint watts, who is -- you know, he worked for -- he was an agent with the fbi, naveed, this is how he put it back on march 30th when he talked about sort of the russian angle of it when he testified before the senate intelligence committee. take a listen. >> is russia's meddling in our 2016 elections proof that the united states is dealing with a nation that is acting in its own war-like manner? >> yes. my biggest concern right now is i don't know what the american stance is on russia and who's going to take care of me. i mean, after years in the army and the fbi, working in the intel communities today, i'm going to walk out of here and ain't nobody going to be coff covering my back. >> naveed, if you were still working as an undercover, trying to convince the russians that you are spying on their side, would you today be concerned that the current commander in chief would not be watching your back? >> absolutely. and scott's being really modest when he talks about coaching. that is absolutely true. in fact, you know, there are a lot of times when i met with his guys and i was reading the news

and i would say, look, this is happening. this concerns me. and their job in many cases was to allay my fears. look, it is a big thing. and trust is -- we would always call it, scott and his team, we would call it the circle of trust. and there was just so few people who knew what i was doing, knew my name, and you just have to trust them. and something as simple and innocuous as something that shows up in the news as major ramifications in the ability of the fbi or the cia to convince people like me to go do this. especially a foreign government. if you can imagine how difficult it is to get them to share information. that is -- it does really absolutely have impact. >> and you know, scott, just the oval office meeting, which i think alarmed everyone, people's hair was on fire. but even going back to the things that donald trump has said about the intelligence community, things he's tweeted. here are a couple of examples. back on january 5th, the media lies to make it look like i'm against intelligence when i'm actually a big fan, okay. but then on january 12th, the intelligence agencies should never have allowed this fake

news to leak into the public, one last shot at me. are we living in nazi germany, comparing the intelligence agencies to nazis. what does that do to the morale of peel yople you used to train work with? >> it's a difficult job and a difficult enough job that you really need the support of the chain of command. the chain of expand in the fbi is uniformly supportive. what we're really talking about here is the consumer, somebody outside the fbi that you don't have control over but really can impact your operational environment. and naveed is skbluabsolutely correct. we spend a lot of time coaching civilians who are doing work for their country, but not on the payroll. and we're telling them it's critical that it be kept private and don't tell your spouse, don't tell your kids, don't tell anybody. and then they're looking at something that's being essentially blasted from the hilltops and they circle back around and they're asking a lot of legitimate, difficult questions that you have to

address, but as long as you're addressing those, you're not able to focus on the mission. so, it really impacts focus. it's part of the environment we work in. and so, we're good at it, but it really is an unnecessary distraction. and it's better if that kind of thing doesn't happen for the intelligence community. it really is. >> and naveed, when this happened, it's not that donald trump, you know, gave away basically an intelligence operation that we were working on, it was the israeli's information, not ours to give out, in that oval office meeting. what did you make of it when h.r. mcmaster, who's been seen as one of the grown-ups, one of the sort of few, you know, solid people in the administration, backed up what the president did n in that oval office meeting? >> i think stait was a very carefully phrased statement. he said sources and methods. and while parsing the legal language, that may have been true, but the reality is the identifying information was there. so i felt it was a very sort of neutral statement that sort of supported the president, but kind of didn't. so, yeah, you know, i go back to what scott said.

this has an impact. >> yeah. and we will see what we get in the next fbi director, whether or not they can improve it. naveed jamali, you'll be back in our next hour. scott olson, thank you very much. >> thank you. and up next, impeachment is back on the table. more "a.m. joy" back after the break. do you play? ♪ ♪ e the chase mole app send mon, to friends at more banks then ever before. you got next? chase. helping you master what's now and what's next. "how to win at business." step one: point decisively with the arm of your glasses. abracadabra. the stage is yours. step two: choose la quinta. the only hotel where you can redeem loyalty points for a free night-instantly and win at business. you totanobody's hurt, new car.

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of odor causing bacteria and helps dissolve stains, cleaning in a better way than brushing with toothpaste. that's why i recommend using polident. polident. cleaner, fresher, brighter every day. we thought that this would be a day when the only big story would be the arrival of pope john paul in havana late this afternoon, and then the unexpected. reports of a new sex scandal involving me ing president clin white house intern, allegations that one of his closest friends intervened improperly, the role of the white water investigator. >> after news broke in january of 1998 about the allegations of bill clinton's affair with monica lewinsky, it would be nearly another year until the house voted that december to impeach him. but that long march towards impeachment began months earlier in the court of public opinion. only hours after the lewinsky scandal exploded into the news, one of the first people to

publicly consider the possibility of impeachment was not one of clinton's political nms, but one of his closest allies. clinton's own senior former adviser, george stephanopoulos, who had recently left politics to become a political analyst for abc news. it was a damning indictment for someone who had been one of clinton's staunchest advisers. but stephanopoulos was one of the first to openly speculate that clinton may have committed an impeachable offense. which is why it was feeling like like 1998 when the possible impeachment of donald trump became a bit more than a pipe dream for democrats. because carlos car bello became the first republicans to come say that allegations of president trump to drop his investigation of michael flynn, if true, are grounds for impeachment. they even began one-upping each other over who said it first. however, unlike those democrats who began slowly backing away from clinton, congressional

republicans are still holding on to their trump card, as prescribed by the constitution, the power to impeach a president lies entirely in the house of representatives. and the power to remove a president after impeachment requires a two-thirds vote in the senate. the bar is so high that a u.s. president has never been impeached and removed from office. the only two presidents to have ever been impeached at all were bill clinton and andrew johnson, but both were acquitted in the senate. threatened with probable impeachment and removal after key republicans abandoned him, richard nixon resigned before it could happen. and unlike donald trump, all three of those presidents faced impeachment by congress' control by the opposition party. with trump ready and willing to rubber stamp their agenda and his sky-high 84% approval rating among republicans, the gop majority has every reason to believe that it can survive without the backbone necessary to put country before party. but with a new trump scandal emerging almost every day, make that, every hour, will anything

make republicans decide that enough is enough? joining me now is a democratic congresswoman, who called for trump's impeachment on the floor of the house and who is about to hold a town hall on the issue. texas representative, al green. congressman, thank you very much for being here. i want to start by asking you about what my producers discussed with you, that you have gotten death threats as a result of this town hall. can you explain? >> well, thank you for having me. this is not something that i wanted to do. this is something that i have to do. the constitution mandates it and i think we have to engage in this process. yes, we have received some threats and we will be playing the recordings today, so that people can assess the threats and make their own decisions. but when people say that they will lynch you, i think you have to take that seriously. and as a result, we have some extreme security measures in place here today. >> and why do you believe that impeachment at this early stage. i mean, donald trump has only

been in office something like 120 days, why start talking about kbeechiimpeaching him now? >> the constitution doesn't address how long a person has to be in office. it doesn't matter. i.t. really has to do with the person's overt manifestations and verbalizations. mr. trump, who is the president, fired the fbi director who was investigating him, and he so much as said he did it because of the investigation. that is obstruction of justice. that is an impeachable act. so we don't need to go into all of these other actions. there are some secondary and some tesrtiary actions that coud help substantiate what happened, but he committed obstruction of justice when he fired the fbi director for investigating him. >> and i want to play for you the leader of the democrats -- your leader in the house, nancy pelosi, who is the house minority leader. and this is her on monday on cnn, saying that impeachment should not be on the table at the moment. take a listen. >> what do you say about the practical effect of some of your members, let's say, most

recently, al green, okay, said this is time for impeachment. >> they know i don't subscribe to that, you know. in other words, again, if you're talking about impeachment, you're talking about, what are the facts? not, i don't like him and i don't like his hair and -- you know, i don't like -- what are the facts? >> and how do you respond to that, sir? >> i respond by saying, this is not about democrats. this is about democracy. it's not about republicans, it's about the republic. it's about what was said by benjamin franklin. you have a republic if you can keep it. this is about keeping the republic. it's about no person being above the law. not even the president of the united states of america. it's about the notion that 48% of the american people tend to agree with the position that i've assumed. they think that he should be impeached. let me share this with you, because it's successingedingly

important. many people confuse the collusion with the obstruction of justice. the collusion may take years of investigative reporting to come to some fruition. but the obstruction of justice is something we separate from that and we look at that alone. that occurred when he fired comey for investigating him. that will be with him as long as he is president. and he can be impeached for it. now, i assure you, notwithstanding anything democrats will say or republicans will say, there will be an impeachment resolution brought in the name of the people of the united states of america. and if nobody else does it, i will do it. each member of the house has the authority to bring an impeachment resolution. that is sympathetomething that want to do. but i know wrong when i see it. the american people understand it. and there will be a resolution. whether it will pass, what the house will do, i don't know. but at least there will be up with person who took the action that is necessary to cause impeachment to be brought before the house. only the house can impeachment. may i address this quickly? this is important. this is not going to be resolved

through the courts. not the obstruction of justice. the president will not be indicted and taken to court for on strbstruction of justice. that remedy is in the house and in the senate. that's where the constitution puts it. >> all right. well, representative al green, congressman from texas. thank you very much, dplgood lu with the town hall today. thanks for joining us. >> thank you. >> thank you. i want to bring in my panel, jimmy williams, and jennifer ruben, opinion writer for "the washington post." and jimmy, i'm going to go to you first. because representative green just made a point that has to do with procedure. you formerly worked in congress as a staffer. is it possible for a member of the house to bring an impeachment resolution to the floor without the speaker of the house allowing that resolution to happen? >> it's a privileged resolution, but that doesn't mean it's going to go anywhere. it will be a party line vote and that will be the end of it. and if the entire point is to take down a president, that means you just failed to take down the president.

listen, this is like a prosecutor taking a case to trial without any evidence. we don't have that much evidence. we have a lot of hearsay. we have a lot of press reports, which we are a part of and i understand that. the question is, is what are the investigations and what are we going to find out? and the bottom line is, if you have a special counsel, which we have, house and senate investigations, that's all good and fine and dandy, but those are all political processes. what we need is for members of the house, maybe mr. green himself and the senate to introduce a bill, a piece of legislation, that would establish an independent commission just like we did for 9/11, to get the facts. to take it out of the political process. they would not have much power or authority to bring charges, in fact, none at all. but at least it would give us a place where you could go and do an investigation, without a political process being in place. let all of these things happen

at the same time. and in the end, if there is, in fact, evidence, evidence of something that's gone wrong, which i think that there has, but i can't prove that. so until i can, and without that evidence, impeachment is not an option right now. i agree with speaker -- i'm sorry, leader pelosi. >> you know, kareen, i expect you disagree with that. we have some evidence, donald trump's own words. he practically, fairly boasted to nbc's own lester holt that the reason he fired jim koims becau comey because he wanted to stop the russian investigation. we have more and more evidence of his own words. do you feel there is not enough evidence to talk about, separate from russiagate, on strbstructi justice. >> i do agree there is evidence out there, like you just laid out, joy, that donald trump is his own worst enemy right now. but we do need some more facts. like, we know that comey is going to be testifying post-memorial day, it sounds lake. so we need to hear from comey hills. we need to see those comey

memos. and i think that's where we need to start. but if there is, indeed, obstruction of justice, that will lead to impeachment. and that's the way it looks like right now, but we need -- i do agree with leader pelosi, we need more facts. and i agree with jimmy on the independent commission. we need that, as well. comey stated himself that russia will probably do this again, meddle with our elections in 2018, 2020. we need to find out exactly how that happened, why it happened, and so we need that independent commission. we can walk and chew gum at the same time. >> and david, it sounds like there would be -- we're getting to the point that we'll have multiple commissions slash investigations slash hearings. you've got the senate and house intelligence communities already looking at this. you now have a special counsel. adding a commission does what, exactly? >> well, that's a good question. i've long supported an independent inquiry into this matter. i think as a realistic matter, the special counsel is going to

be the closest we ultimately get to that. and what's important to realize, special counsel, they will issue -- that counsel will issue a report. and that report will be based on sworn testimony. that report will be based on documents. we will see in the coming days and weeks, we'll see sworn testimony, as james comey testifies. we're highly likely to actually see documents. we're going to get into the position where we're going to actually be living in the realm of law and evidence, rather than in the realm of leaks and news reports. and it's entirely true that the leaks and news reports have brought us to this position, but this is the important stage. the law and the evidence. that's the important stage in this inquiry. and that's going to determine where we go from here. >> and you know, jennifer, you know, there's a sense that there's a disconnect between what maybe viewers of the show, a lot of democrats, sort of feel in their gut, that this is sort of pry ma fascia evidence that the president has done something much worse than obstruction. and the appetite the elected

democrats have to take the political remedy. you've already heard from nancy pelosi saying, you know, she's not ready to go to impeachment. she was in the same place in 2006 when she took impeachment off the table when she became speaker of the house and democrats took over. you have tim mack reporting in the daily beast that dianne feinstein on the senate side has said that impeachment hearings are very hard on the country. she wants to learn more, but shepshe thinks the i-word should be off the table. and a lot of people looking at the discomfort that republicans field and the fact that democrats aren't doing anything to touch this president, the leaders of the house and senate are completely out to -- you know, they're not helping at all. they want to support donald trump. some have floated the idea that the only way to stop donald trump is for his own cabinet and his own vice president to take the 25th amendment solution. this is article 4 of the 25th amendment of constitution. that says wherever the vice president and a majority of either the principle officers of the executive departments or of such a body as congress may by

law provide their written declaration that the president is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the vice president will assume the offices and duties of the president. there are conspiracy theorists that mackenzie philliike pence o that anyway. he and the cabinet could just remove donald trump. do you see that as a viable option? >> no, and ross and i have debated that on this very network. i think that's a terrible idea, actually. it's a recipe for coups and removing people because we don't like them, not because they are unable to discharge their duties. that had a specific purpose. now, mentally, at some point, donald trump may be unable to perform his duties. physically, it's possible that presidents are incompass dated, they go under surgery or have some physical ailment. that's what that is for. we don't want to open the door to parties trying to get presidents out of there because they're really, really bad at

their job or have done bad things. that really is what the impeachment process is for. i want to go back for just a second, though, to the commission. i think people are confusing what the commission does with regard to donald trump and obstruction of justice and what they do for russia. an independent commission would be very helpful in the russia investigation, because we do need some prescriptions going forward. that's what the 9/11 commission did. they looked at all of the facts, looked how all the mechanisms of our national security team did not work properly and they made recommendations going forward. that's what we need the independent commission for, having nothing to do with the obstruction issue, but the underlying, sometimes hard to remember that's where we started, but the underlying russia meddling in our election. >> we are out of time, but i want to do a quick round robin and take your guys' temperature on the likelihood of impeachment. impeachment with republicans leading, impeachment with democrats leading it, or no impeachment at all. what of those three things do

you think will happen? >> i think the republicans will lose the house in 2018 and the democrats will move to impeach. >> jimmy? >> i don't think either of those things is going to happen, because i don't have any facts to support those things at this point in time. but if i did, i think that the country would demand if a president is accused of -- is guilty of accused of doing what we think he did, then, in fact, impeachment would happen, but i don't have those facts. >> very quickly, karine jean-pierre, which of those things are likely? >> i'm waiting to hear what comey has to say post-memorial day, and if it is, indeed, true that he obstructed justice, then impeachment should be on the table. >> not should it, but will it happen? >> i would hope that republicans finally wake up. i hope so. i hope so. i don't know. >> david french, very quickly. likelihood of impeachment either by republicans or democrats? >> it completely depends on the actual evidence that emerges. can't possibly predict. >> all right. no predictions except jennifer ruben wheent out on a limb ther and i appreciate her doing that. thank you all very much. coming up, how the

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take a close look at the letter from deputy attorney general, rod rosenstein, which authorizes robert mueller as special counsel. rosenstein gives mueller the go ahead to look not only into possible ties between russia and the trump campaign, but also, quote, any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation. that search has already led the fbi to zero in on two trump aides, former national security adviser michael flynn and former campaign chairman, paul manafort. both men have been the subject of multiple grand jury subpoenas and records requests in connection with the investigation. but where else might any matters that arose or may arise lead mueller now that he's in charge? after all, ken starr, the

independent counsel who hounded bill clinton in the 1990s started out with an investigation into white water. but we all know how that ended with monica lewinsky and impeachment. so what new revelations might mueller search for answers expose about donald trump? joining me now are daily beast journalist, harry siegel and kenny with the coalition against trump. i'm going to start with you. donald trump remerges out of new york from this real estate work that's pretty murky. if you could use your lurid imagination and speculate, what might be underneath this sort of curtain as the attorney general of new york begins to look into him? >> the attorney general of new york has some exceptional investigative powers and has been gunning for trump for a long time. >> he's a democrat, big-time. >> he is a democrat, and he's -- rick schneiderman, and he's looking -- and step away from russia for a minute or russia and the election, donald trump -- donald trump is in the

real estate business, which is filled with llcs, dark, buried money. at a certain point, the american banks cut him off, because he keeps burning them, like trump tends to burn people. and he has all sorts of lines of credit, that some of them go back to russia and a lot of that's been looked into. paul manafort, who's being investigated now for his own very complicated real estate dealings, that seem to involve surprise mortgages that maybe weren't paid off and llcs to maybe hide money in property, with scrooge mcduck style, so instead of someone living there, the cash is just there. he had a place in trump tower. and that was one of his ins with the donald. so, there's just all of these nooks and crannies and dark corners that somebody with real investigative powers has -- and subpoena power, you know, potentially, can find, start turning over rocks and see what crawls out. >> and speaking of turning over rocks, you've been doing a lot of that. and you do have this sort of residence of trump tower

cavalcade of sort of almost cartoonish villains, right, that are associated directly with donald trump? can you in a very short order sort of unpack what are some of the names that people can be looking for that can turn up in these investigations? >> i think that mike flynn, obviously, is most likely going to head to prison. you have paul manafort, who's in a lot of trouble. i think that michael cohen is going to face a lot of scrutiny, as well. you know, we found out -- >> that's trump's lawyer? >> yes, that's trump's attorney. he also goes by the name michael hacking, but that was related to his taxi cab company. so he has two names. you know, i think the main point is that his family needs to be implicated in this, because they were behind a lot of these deals. so you have eric and don jr., but most importantly, you have ivanka and jared. i think those are the two key people that need to be implicated now in regards to the whole trump/russia probe. >> and sarah, one of the sort of

things about donald trump that people learn when he ran for president is that he does have this long-standing kind of affinity for all things russia. he's done a lot of business there. his son bragged about a lot of their business coming from russia, a lot of their con does were brought by russian llcs or russian humans. his $90 million sale of a house in florida. but there is this sense in which he kind of seems to if not at least admire but emulate russian oligarchs. is this happenstance and coincidence that he seems to behave in ways that they do? >> i don't think it's coinciden coincidence, i think he has a natural affinity, because russian oligarchs can operate above the law. and throughout trump's life, that's what he's tried to do. he's surrounded himself with people who have insight into legal loopholes he could exploit for his own corrupt ventures. and i think he sees in russia people who are able to do this at a much higher level because they lack the constraints and the legal processes that we have in the u.s. as president, i think he see himself as above the law.

i think he's using his executive position to further these kind of financial tractinsactions. and he's also directly implicated in russian interactions that may be illegal. whether himself or through people like manafort, flynn, paige, and you know the various actors that we've just named. >> and june, harry, as an investigative journalist, you also do a lot of great work here for the "daily news," you know the new york weird world. there were a couple of headlines that would get anybody like you sort of intrigued but one of them was the associated press's headline, that trump's attorney didn't want him to sign his financial disclosure forms, that would have certified them as true. that was weird. and then you have on friday, politico comes out with this piece that trump told aides that firing michael flynn was a mistake. it's left white house officials perplexed. why is trump so determined to defend a man at the center of a federal investigation that's damaging his administration, the man he's accused of lying to his vice president, someone he apparently is still talking to and telling him to stay strong? >> well, did he lie to the vice president, or is that the alibi

story? because these guys don't mean a lot of the things they said. but with flynn, there's clearly this "i can't quit you, babe" element to this. and it's incredible how much more loyal he's been to mike flynn than to his three wives. but i think the bottom line here with trump, which is almost always simpler and less conspiratorial than you need to start with. if you're not trying to start something in court, he doesn't like to say he's wrong and he likes to dance with -- and flynn was a zealot and convert very early on. the two were close. he doesn't like these other generals like mcmaster who say a lot of stuff and are boring. here's a cool guy, they said, lock her up, he said, that's right, somebody should. that's his sort of fella. now flynn's gone. all of these investigations are rolling downhill. and he's saying, oh, i never should have done that. but i was right to start with and the people around him are saying, oh, my god, is this going to be a very, very long stretch trying to speak for this man. >> and scott, there's also the

point of, you know, flynn might know some things, right? >> i think that one of the things that's key here is that from our timeline, we believe through our investigations that trump is the one who made the introduction for flynn to the russians, in the first place. and i think that fact, when that comes out, that's very troublesome, because then it's trump that was involved in the first place in linking flynn up. and i think that flynn has been the eyes and ears for trump in russia until he was fired. and i think also, you know, of course, his son was also over there in russia, during that russia today conference. so this is going to spin out of control very, very quickly in regards to flynn. i don't think that he's going to run out of stories to tell. >> yeah, okay, we are out of time. unfortunately, we are out of time. we could do this all day. harry siegel, scott kenzie, scrooge mcduck makes its first

appearance on the "a.m. joy" show thanks to harry. still to come, trump takes his road show to saudi arabia. stay with us. mom, i have to tell you something. dad, one second i was driving and then the next... they just didn't stop and then... i'm really sorry. i wrecked the subaru. i wrecked it. you're ok. that's all that matters. (vo) a lifetime commitment to getting them home safely.

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what's in your wallet? donald trump is in saudi arabia today on his first overseas trip as president. but earlier this week, he was playing host to foreign leaders a to the white house. including turkish president, tayyip erdogan. erdogan has reputations as a strong man who brutally cracks down on dissidents and journalists in his own country. just hours after that meeting, erdogan's guards, the guys dressed in dark suits, were caught on camera kicking, beating, and choking protesters who were rallying outside the turkish ambassador's residence in washington. senior officials confirm to nbc news that members of erdogan's security detail were involved. at least nine people were hurt and two people were arrested. new video from voice of america shows president erdogan watching the chaos from his car. two members of his security detail were briefly detained, but international law gives heads of state and their entourage immunity from arrest. the turkish government

blamed the protester who is they claimed were affiliated with terrorist groups. the state department condemned the violence as never an appropriate response to free speech. and senators dianne feinstein and john mccain demanded that erdogan hold his guards accountable. >> we should throw their ambassador the hell out of the united states and america. this isn't turkey, this isn't a third world country. this kind of thing cannot go unresponded to diplomatic and maybe in other ways. >> state department officials stopped short of expelling the turkish ambassador, but did summon him to express their concern. up next, the president on the world stage. hanging out in here. hanging out in here. so if you need anything, text me. do you play? ♪ ♪ use the chase mobile app to send money in just a tap, to friends at more banks then ever before.

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this american carnage stops right here and stops right now. we cannot allow a group of terrorists to form inside of

america. we cannot allow our nation to become a sanctuary for extremists. we don't want them in our country! >> the man who wrote those words for donald trump is his senior policy adviser, stephen miller. i bring this up today, because miller, who also brought you such hits as the muslim travel ban, is writing the speech trump will give tomorrow in saudi arabia. an address on islam, directed to the muslim world. what could go wrong? >> ted cruz also introduced an amendment to double the number of muslim migrants coming into this country. a 200% increase. he had no regard, no concern for how that amendment would affect the security of you and your family. he was happy to replicate here in the united states the same conditions we have in germany and belgium and across europe, with uncontrolled migration from the middle east. joining me now is naveed

jamali, nbc contributor, nieera hack and rosa brooks. rosa, h.r. mcmaster said the following of the speech that's coming. he said it's going to be an inspiring, jet direct speech on the need to confront radical ideology and the president's hope for a peaceful vision of islam to dominate across the world. hopeful about that? >> well, i'm watching with interest, as i'm sure is the rest of the world. the funny thing about trump's speeches is that he just says whatever comes into his head, as far as i can tell, regardless of what is on the paper in front of him. so i think in terms of what could go wrong, number one, the speech is obviously, reportedly written by steve miller, not famed for his calm and soothing forms of rhetoric. and number two, we've got trump ad libbing. so anything could happen. it's going to be an exciting day tomorrow. >> hopefully he won't do the hand gestures and do the thumbs up. i think he's been given a list of things you don't do. it's rude inside saudi arabia to do them.

so, neera, you've got the white house proving this trip, the whole foreign trip, this is by our own peter alexander. the white house has said this trip will provide the chance to unify different religions around a common objective to bring everyone together in an effort to rise above more petty differences. the speech east doing on islam he's giving in saudi arabia, wherewahabism was born, which is the ideology that they've taken around the world with them. what do you expect from a speech that will go down in the cradle of islam, in the place of mecca and medina. >> i think we should be hardened that the fact that his people are realizing that judaism and christianity are coming from the shared roots of abraham. that can be heartening, but the idea that going to mecca and recognizing that is equivalent

to the vatican is false, because there is no pope or vatican equivalent for muslims. going to foreign country before talking to your own muslim community here in the u.s., people who are feeling attacked and are fearful for what their government is promoting these days, that's also disappointing, not being able to speak to american citizens, but going to a foreign government, first. and of all the muslims countries to go to, the birthplace of wahibism, the most extreme interpretation of islam, that is easily seen as the underpinning of isis. the saudi 9/11 hijackers were the majority from saudi arabia, and saudi arabia has never been held accountable for this. multiple countries in the muslim world feel threatened by this extreme interpretation of islam, that is now being spread because of saudi's oil money into their country. so the ironies here are multiple. and unfortunately, the royal family has realized that they

have somebody who wants to appear royal himself in trump. and so they're going to be capitalizing and playing on that, rather than any substantiative conversation about ending terrorism in the region. >> and naveed, it's hard to believe that donald trump or his team, quite frankly, really understands sort of all of the players that intricately. donald trump notoriously only reads bullet points with his name on them. he doesn't read detailed policy papers. but if he did, what would -- might somebody who did understand it make of a couple of dots? one that jared kushner apparently just inked a deal personally to get a good deal for the saudis on buying some military equipment essentially from lockheed martin. they just inked that deal. and in iran, the chief viral, that these are two sort of rival in that region, just re-elected mr. rouhani, which is the moderating influence in iran, which is the donald trump team said is on notice, at one point. what do you make of those

dynamics? >> i think nayyera is absolutely right. the reality is that these foreign countries, they have intelligence services that read the news just like ours do. and they're wondering, is donald trump going to stay in power? is he going to make it past 2020. as such, they're going to fo formulate a source of action that's going to be neutral. they're looking for short-term appeasement. how "the new york times" has a plan to use small words and appeal to his ego by complimenting him on his victory in the election. i think if they're smart, they're just going to kind of do something that's sort of middle of the road, let him get his little victory lap here and wait to see what happens next. i don't think he's in a position to really trade. not to mention what just happened with russia, i'm betting these countries are not big fans of russia, turkey aside. they're probably thinking, let's just make this a grip and grin and let's not invest too much, because we don't know how long this guy is going to be in power. it's a legitimate concern. >> there is the other sort of sense of it. i talked to people, to some frequently, who say, on the

other happennd, some of these leaders in the egypts and saudi arabias of the world actually understand donald trump, might be someone they get along with. they're a lot like them. you can stay in his hotels and do miss. he doesn't care about human rights. he's not going to try to sort of lord american values over you. you look at the way he's treated duterte and erdogan. in a sense, might he actually have his best possible reception in some of these more autocratic countries in the absolutely. >> absolutely. >> absolutely. >> he's like them, but sort of dumber. and i think the saudis have absolutely got his number. i see the saudis are given him a gold medal just for showing up. i think they figure ed donald trump up. give him a little gold star, treat him like royalty, nod and look respectful, and he's eating out of their hands. and that's not really good for the rest of the world, but it's great for the saudis.

and he obviously has no discomfort whatsoever with authoritarianism. >> and let's be clear, with also, a win for donald trump in this situation, of getting along with autocratic leaders is not necessarily a win for the united states. the idea that they said they're not going to be moralizing to these countries. moralizing about values such as freedom of press, human rights, and freedom for women, that is -- those are the values the united states should be espousing. it should not be the values of how can we get the best business deal for a particular family. >> yeah, and naveed, you've already seen people on the right giving kudos to melania and ivanka for not covering their hair inside araibya, which lots and lots and lots of other first ladies have done. they're giving him already medals for just showing up, even some of his supporters back here. >> both of the other panelists are absolutely right. i think this is going to be short-term gain. and you're right, joy. this is someone who other autocratic dictators, if you will, can look at him and say, hey, i get it, i relate to this guy. that's going to translate to

short-term things. i don't think any country will look at this objectively and say, there's a long-term policy, we can strike with the united states, and it's going to have a meaningful long-term lasting impact. they're just trying to appeal to his id, his ego. and i think that's a smart movie. he's a kid with shiny keys. you can distract him pretty ooels easily. >> skplongs the tie is longer than the medal, it all coordinates with his outfit. rosa, last word to you. on the serious side, nato also that as to hear from donald trump. and they cannot be excited that he's going to talk to them, bring along his speechwriter, who said that nato was an organization made many decades ago, that is incongruent with our current foreign policy challenges. that's steven miller last year on fox news. >> i think he's expected to do some reassuring, whether he can stick tonight script that i'm sure h.r. mcmaster, the national security adviser is trying to get him to stick to and actually be reassuring is anybody's guess. but, you know, i do think that we have already reached the point where most foreign

leaders, whether they're awe thorntarian or democratic, have kind of got him figured out and they realize that he's going to say crazy stuff and it may or may not matter and that's both good news and bad news. the good news is that he may not stick to the crazy stuff. the bad news is that he may also not stick to the reassuring stuff. >> here we go. and they can always read his twitter feed to find out what he's thinking. >> thank you all. still to come, a little comic relief or more comic relief at that point. the one and only kathy griffin joins me live. if you have moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis like me,

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right after news broke that russia had hacked the dnc last year, russian leaders had a conversation that was caught on tape. according to "the washington post" house majority leader kevin mccarthy said there's two people i think putin paid, rohrbacher and trump. on wednesday mccarthy said it was, quote, a bad attempt at a joke, that's all. that's all there is to it. meanwhile, some republicans defended trump for allegedly asking the former fbi director to end his investigation into michael flynn saying that maybe trump, too, was only joking. with so much joking going on, we decided to bring in an expert, kathy griffin, "celebrity run-ins, the a to z index." she fabulously walked into the studio. >> i just happened to be here to say i know this game. you get caught saying something horrible. i don't deny it because everything i say i'm proud of.

however, you deny it. then i love when mccarthy was walking down the hall and all the reporters were like, uh, it's on tape. boy, he changed his story. oh, it's on tape. then it was just a joke. i especially like the part "swear to god" which is one of those tells that lets you know it's not a joke. obviously they think that or have at least danced around the idea. if you've ever met dana rohrbacher, you can pay him to do pretty much anything. and not very much, 20 bucks. >> since the "access hollywood" tape they have gotten away with saying things trump says and things his people say are just a joke. >> they're all bolder. but bolder in a bad way. there's no stigma against an inappropriate joke. that part would be fun. not for elected officials. but these guys are trying to walk back stuff and sometimes they'll say it didn't happen, sometimes it was a joke, sometimes it was a, well, i knew it wasn't a joke. i know all these tricks. i've bombed enough to know all

these tricks, thank you very much. >> well, i have to -- while i have you here, i have to ask you about roger ailes. you have an amazing story about him, which our audience you must share with. >> oh, my gosh. so i came out with the book in november. it's about various run-ins with famous people maybe people never knew i had known. i was seated near valerie jarrett near a high profile d.c. event. i got into a fight with sarah palin, the whole thing. but anyway, i was going up to roger ailes and i couldn't resist giving him some -- a little guff, as my mother would say. i say hi, rog, what's going on over at the propaganda machine. he said i remember when you were a friend of fox and friends. i said yeah, that's when me and richard simmons were doing the weather 15 years ago. then rahm emanuel came up to me and said we're not doing this here. and i think i'm still friendly with valerie jarrett because she said that being friends with her makes her daughter thinks she's cool, but i don't know.

i may have pushed it. >> it's a weird confluence, rahm emanuel and ailes all sitting together. >> it was not the washington correspondents one but the d-list one, tv and radio one. it was a crazy combo. i will say i'm amazed at how these washington people sit around and next to each other. >> what do you think his legacy -- ailes' legacy is going to be? >> i think truth fully his legacy is going to be the way he treated women, i really do. especially when you look at the chorus of people backing him up. who wants sean hannity having your back? nobody wants tucker carlson -- i'm not pro botox anymore, but he could use a lot. look, he's scaring my mother. my mother can't hear so well. she watches tucker and she's confused and she turns her head like a cat. it's too much for her. it's too much for her. >> i have to get to the reason that you are here, not just to see me, of course. >> of course i want to see you but i want to talk about aids walk new york city tomorrow. >> you have a gorgeous t-shirt. tell us about it because it is

an important fund-raiser for the gay men's health crisis. >> 32nd anniversary. in this environment with everything from god forbid the ahca ever passes, aids is still such a real crisis around the world. i think it's one of these issues that people think is done with or the aids walk around has been for so long, it still is important. it starts tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. there are events before. i'm actually performing at the rumsey play field in the middle of the park. i'll be on at about 1:45. it's -- you know, it's a great time by all. go walk, go support, go donate. their website is new york.aids walk.net. >> the new york skyline is going to turn red this weekend for aids awareness. it's a whole new sense of urgency according to the gay men's health crisis. they have grave concerns about losing funding for hiv -- >> many, many gay and lesbian centers are losing funding. a lot of men are going to

planned parenthood now and all these individual issues still need private money and private help because as we know the government is pulling money away, pulling money away. so this is a cause that's close to my heart but also this is an issue that still goes on all over the world. and, you know, we're not cured, we're not done yet. the medicine is so much better but only because of our grassroots fund-raising and working, working, working. >> do you think because people are living longer and so healthy so have we lost the sense of urgency. >> yes. especially with the younger folks. i fear that they think this is an issue that's generational or i'll just go on that cocktail. all this stuff is really hard. it's important that we educate people as young as we can. all the old myths we can debunk but have serious conversations about it. it's a real thing. >> not only serious but fun as well because kathy griffin is involved. >> i just want to make the people laugh. >> you can walk like kathy tomorrow. she will teach you how to do that fabulous walk. kathy griffin, thank you very much, my friend.

that is our show for today. remember, "a.m. joy" is tomorrow at noon eastern after premier league soccer. in the meantime, you know what to do. keep it right here on msnbc. you're going to be hanging out in here. so if you need anything, text me. do you play? ♪ ♪ use the chase mobile app to send money in just a tap, to friends at more banks then ever before. you got next? chase. helping you master what's now and what's next. just head & shoulders? (gasp) i thought it was just for, like, dandruff new head & shoulders. cleans, protects and moisturizes to... ...get up to 100% flake-free and unbelievably beautiful hair it's not head & shoulders, it's the new head & shoulders

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budget overruns. and rising costs, wipe that smile off your face. we're coming for you, too. for those who won't rest until the world is healthier, neither will we. optum. how well gets done. hello, i'm sheinelle jones at msnbc world headquarters in new york. we want to take you live now to saudi arabia where rex tillerson is with his counterpart. they're discussing their new agreement with king salmon. let's listen in. >> had a very, very good and very wide-ranging conversation. they discussed, of course, the challenges facing the region and the world. they began by talking about the bilateral relationship and ways to enhance it and improve it in all areas. they discussed the scourge of terrorism, terror financing and how we can work together to eradicate it. they discussed the nefarious vi