or expand your office and take on whatever comes next. find out how american express cards and services can help prepare you for growth at open.com. hi, everybody. good morning. i'm thomas roberts at msnbc world headquarters in new york. 8:00 a.m. in the east, 5:00 a.m. out west. day 128 of the trump administration with new and explosive allegations against senior adviser and the president's son-in-law jared kushner. the growing questions about his links to russia. after nine days in five countries president trump heading home soon and we have fresh reaction to his first overseas trip. meanwhile, back at the white house, an nbc report on the team there setting up a literal war room of sorts to fight back against accusations against the administration and russia. plus, these new arrests, the uk on high alert as the search for

more suspects in the manchester terrorist attack still under way. we have the very latest coming up in a live report. also for your holiday weekend, some severe weather is expected across parts of our country. here's a live look at new york and times square. a beautiful morning. we'll have it covered for you right here on "msnbc live." we begin with new revelations about jared kushner's alleged contacts with russia. with "the washington post" reporting they discussed the possibility of setting up a back channel between trump's transition team and the kremlin using russian diplomatic facilities here in the u.s. this is according to the u.s. officials briefed on intelligence reports. now nbc has not independently confirmed the washington "post" report. but has reached out to kushner's personal lawyer who instead touched on the other breaking news that reuters put out about kushner having at least three previously undisclosed contacts with the russian ambassador sergey kislyak during and after

the 2016 presidential campaign. kushner's lawyer is saying in part that mr. kushner participated in thousands of calls in this time period and has no recollection of the calls as described. "the washington post" reporting the senate intelligence committee wants president trump's political organization to gather and produce all russia-related documents, e-mails and phone records going back to his campaign's launch in june of 2015. president trump on the final leg of his overseas trip this morning is defending his first budget plan amid backlash from both sides of the aisle. here's part of his weekly address. >> the big thing for me is economic growth, which is not possible without safety and security. that is why our budget reverses years of cuts to our military that have made us less safe in a more dangerous world. we're going to make sure the men and women on the front lines of freedom have the tools they need to keep us safe and totally

secure. >> trump also tweeting this morning, many nato countries have agreed to step up payments considerably as they should. money is beginning to pour in nato will be much stronger. joining me is nbc's ken delaney and intelligence and national security reporter. let's talk about this and break it apart because there are two big breaking news stories that seem to collide but it goes back to one main focus of sergey kislyak. >> yeah. thomas, good morning. current and former officials are telling me this "washington post" report is a game changer. in part because they find this the behavior described so deeply suspicious. you have to consider the context. the u.s. intelligence community had concluded with high confidence, unanimously, that russia had interfered in the election. the trump team had received classified briefings about this conclusion. and here -- yet here you have the president's son-in-law jared kushner seeking to establish a secure back channel communications with russia and

the only reason he could possibly have to do that would be to evade u.s. monitoring. and the question is, why he would do that. now, "the new york times" has confirmed the story and they are suggesting that it was about syria. the people i'm talking to find that really hard to believe and it sounds like something mike flynn's lawyer would say. you have this other report you referred to by reuters suggesting there were other undisclosed contacts between kushner and kislyak and that further adds to the picture. >> the big problem here is about having honest brokers, basically? how to we know that kislyak wasn't sending back false information about kushner or the trump transition team and also how do we know whether or not kushner really did this? is general mike flynn going to be a linchpin to providing testimony? >> i think you're right about that and that is a fair question. it is not unheard of for governments to report falsely and that's why this matter has to be investigated. it's telling you haven't had an absolute denial immediately from kushner which you would think

would be the case if this was a completely bogus report. and the other question here is how did the u.s. intelligence community learn about this information? the "post" says it was from monitoring kislyak's communications back to moscow. that is a dramatic revelation because whoever leaked that, did so knowing that that intelligence channel is going go away the russians will change how they communicate. but the leaker decided it was in the public's interest to learn this information that outweighed the loss of the intelligence. >> also, from that reuters report, it gives the suggestion about money, the fact that the reason for setting this up, the motive, was to enhance the issue of sanctions and certain banks in russia being able to loan or give money to those closest to trump, correct? >> that's right. and nbc news investigative unit has new reporting this morning on the russian banker that kushner met with shortly after this meeting. he's a guy name gorkov and described to us as a putin cronie who attended a russian

intelligence training school and his state-owned bank is under u.s. sanctions and he badly wants those sanctions to be lifted. the suspicion this meeting may have been about lifting sank shns and money and the congressional investigators want to talk to kushner about this meeting presumably the fbi as well. >> we know kushner did not fully disclose on his security clearance forms about these kislyak meetings also saying this was just an oversight. but can more importantly, for general mike flynn and his lawyer seeking immunity and his lawyering saying he has a story to tell, giving him immunity would lead to a bigger fish, is kushner the bigger fish people were suspecting? >> well, a lot of people think the biggest fish is donald trump. of course, you know, that remains to be seen and the idea that flynn would talk if granted immunity, most people i speak to don't anticipate that happening. what they see -- the game

they're looking at here is the fbi often when trying to unravel a conspiracy will seek to charge conspirators with crimes and use that as leverage to get them to talk in exchange for a reduced sentence. mike flynn appears to be in serious legal jeopardy on a number of fronts including his lobbying and failure to disclose payment for the 2015 trip to russia and so, you know, you can presume that's the road the fbi is going down. thomas? >> lastly, plausible deniability for president trump. we think back to the watergate hearings what did the president know and when did he know it, the famous question there. is there plausible deniability that donald trump didn't know about kushner's actions? >> you know, that to me as a reporter who's been covering this the long time is the most vexing question. did donald trump know mike flynn was meeting with kislyak, his son-in-law was meeting with kislyak, and this back channel

to russia was requested. looking at the way donald trump operates his white house i think both scenarios are plausible. it's plausible he didn't know, it's plausible he was briefed on it and did know. that's what the investigation i think is ultimately designed to get at, thomas. >> all right. we'll figures out who will ask the howard baker question coming up. great to see you, ken, thank you. happy memorial day weekend. >> you too. great to be with you. >> i want to bring in molly, congressional reporter at the hill and scott blands reporter at politico. great to see both of you. i hope you were able to hear what ken was saying there. with "the washington post" and its report, this is a bombshell and game changer if they are able to connect the dots like this, but again it goes back to the integrity of kislyak telling the truth. >> well exactly. if you talk to republican lawmakers up on capitol hill, like i've been doing this past few weeks, these leaks that are coming out, we don't know how reliable they are. we don't know -- for me i'm a student of history.

i studied history in college and i always wanted to see the primary source and i want to see these leaks and i think lawmakers want to see these leaks, these actual documents, where they're coming from, because it's hard to say you know the motive behind this and what exactly happened if you don't actually have the primary sources in front of you. and that's what republicans are saying, you know, just let this investigation take, you know, take its course and keep donald trump off the twitter going forward. because that -- he ends up keeping these stories in the news. >> all right. so scott, i want to play for you and molly, and for everybody at home, greg miller one of the reporters who broke "the washington post" story telling chris hayes last night how the paper got the scoop to begin with. take a look. >> quite some time ago we got this letter in the mail, my colleague ellen got it, came in her mailbox and it was typed, it had no signature, it gave no means of tracing this back to

the source, but it had a lot of information in it about things that had been happening in trump tower and appeared to be from somebody inside the transition or inside trump tower and was concerned about what this person was seeing. a lot of what's written or conveyed in this letter has sort of come -- become true over time. >> so here we have the importance of the daily mail and thank you, mr. postman, to reporters, because so many of us have been checking our physical inboxes at work locations because of things coming over the inbox. does this really it's not a drip drip, this is a huge pour. how much does it tell us about the revelations and where this investigation is going? >> well, i think it goes to show how much ground is left to be covered in this investigation and, you know, you got a lot of different entities working on this right now. you have the house and senate intelligence committees, the special counsel robert mueller

setting up shop in the last few weeks and i think because of that it's going to be interesting to see what happened. molly was talking about reaction on the hill, and it seemed like the appointment of the special counsel really ratcheted down the intensity, you know, the pot was boiling a little less hard, there was a little less pressure on republican lawmakers for the past week or so that special counsel was appointed. it will be interesting to see whether this contributes to, you know, the heat being turned up a little bit more. >> what's your sense of how the republican leaders are processing all of this, now the focus essentially on the president's right-hand man, are they being so quiet because they might have an issue for themselves? >> well, an issue for themselves meaning, you know, if this, in fact, is all true and if the investigation, you know, bears out that, you know, nefarious deeds were being done, then the president could have a real problem in terms of congress

and, you know, lawmakers calling for impeachment. it really depends on how -- on how he is received in their districts, how popular he is in their districts. in fact, john boehner said yesterday, reportedly, that, you know, impeachment, which is the way you would hold the president accountable is a political process. this is not a legal process. and so really, it will come down to how constituents feel in these gop districts and, you know, democrats already pretty much calling for this, not officially. >> how much can be sold on naive or nefarious. my grandmother used to say you can't be a little bit crooked. >> you can't. >> you know, you're crooked. >> you're crooked. >> you know, naive or nefarious, that's going to be the brand for gop republicans that don't stand up to this. >> well -- >> if they're already informed, which i suspect that many of them are, that sit on these intelligence committees. >> well, that's the thing. that's the key. if you're on the intelligence

committee you kind of can be a little bit removed because you can say, a, this is happening, it's classified, we aren't going to come out with our findings until they're made officials and what not. a little distance. other lawmakers if constituents at home are feeling you can't be a little bit crooked and starting to turn on trump that's when you'll see republican lawmakers turning on trump as well and turning up the heat as scott said, back to that boil which could, you know, result in judiciary hearings and impeachment resolutions. >> scott, i want to get your reaction. "the wall street journal" is reporting trump is considering legal changes in light of the russian investigation. setting up this war room to deal with this crisis. lawyers vetting tweets. i mean i was reading a snarky tweet that someone said we should have like a congressional investigation if trump and the administration have american ties at this point. how serious is this? >> well, there is any other kind of tweet than a snarky tweet at

this point. it is pretty serious and it goes to show the white house is setting up extra processes for dealing with this. the special counsel is a serious step and i think they're taking it very seriously. the question is, how long it takes, what else comes out? i think as we're talking about congress and the congressional reaction to this, there are a few key republican members you can key an eye on. the folks in battleground districts expected to face tough 2018 challenges kind of on the leading edge of reaction to this. carlos car bellow from miami, barbara comstock republican from virginia across the river in the suburbs there. we're talking about the reaction before the special counsel was appointed. the people who were coming out and calling for a special counsel, some supporting an independent commission, that sort of thing, so if you want a sense of how this is playing out, you have a few bellwether

members of congress who are expecting to face tough raise that can give you a since. >> scott and molly, thank you so much. enjoy your saturday. i appreciate it. >> likewise. thank you. >> thanks. let's turn to weather because happening right now, we do have severe weather threats for the ohio valley into the southern plains and the appalachians. so this is video from indianapolis where strong winds caused some damage overnight. joining me now, msnbc's meteorologist bonny snyder. my inlaws in ohio they had to go in the basement the other day. >> oh, boy. >> because of the tornado sigh reps going off. how big of a threat is this? >> unfortunately we're looking at a threat for the weekend and even right now with severe thunderstorms breaking out in the mid-south as well as into parts of nebraska and kansas. a severe thunderstorm watch will persist straight through the noon hour. you asked how many, thomas, 61 million people at risk for today. golf ball sized hail, softball size possible with the hail, maybe some tornadoes as well and this is really for the heartland and into the central plains that

we're watching. not really the best timing whether it be memorial day weekend. heavy rain is possible that could bring localized flooding. we may see four inches locally in some areas. in terms of temperatures, it's really going to be where you're headed in terms of how you adjust for this weekend. it's cool in the northeast and new england. actually temperatures below normal but very hot in the southern plains and cool towards the rockies. as we break down the numbers for today, in the 80s across the south and the 90s in texas. so really heating up. look how cool it is in buffalo and boston. your highs are only in the 60s. for sunday, temperatures are starting to moderate a little bit. we'll see a better day in the northeast with more sunshine, but look at this, little instability. more rain through parts of the ohio valley as we look towards sunday. finally memorial day itself, if you're heading to the beaches, water temperature right along the shore, for example, in new jersey looking at 58 degrees so it's going to be really cool to take that dip in the ocean and the air temperature cool as well with highs in the 50s and 60s in

the northeast. warmer towards west virginia and the south. atlanta climbing all the way to 84 and savannah, what a hot place that will be memorial day with a high of 93. thomas? >> it's perfect here in new york. you saw me a short time ago in my bicycle gear getting to work. it's a beautiful morning here in the city. non-sweaty to arrive at work. great to see you. thanks so much. talk shortly. hundreds of sporting events are taking place in manchester. what authorities are doing to make sure that those games are safe after monday's ariana grande attack. that college experience that i had. the classes, the friends, the independence. and since we planned for it, that student debt is the one experience, i'm glad she'll miss when you have the right financial advisor, life can be brilliant.

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you can actually remember, instantly. add that premium channel, and watch the show everyone's talking about, tonight. and the bill you need to pay? do it in seconds. because we should fit into your life, not the other way around. go to xfinity.com/myaccount just in the last hour uk prime minister theresa may downgraded the nation's threat level from critical to severe and police are conducting more raids in that city.

nbc's chief global correspondent bill neely is in manchester for us. what more can you tell us especially with the news may provided with the threat level downgraded? >> good morning, thomas. as you say the british prime minister theresa may announcing the country's threat level has been reduced from the highest level critical to the second highest severe. she also said that the troops who have been on the streets the last few days will be withdrawn on monday at the end of this holiday weekend. she also said the reason for it is that the police are confident that the possibility of another attack is not imminent. also this morning, more searches here in the manchester area, more arrests overnight. the police are confident that they've got the terror network. early this morning, police used explosives to storm a house and arrest two men. police now questioning 11 men, most in their 20s about the

bombing. >> we've got to understand everything around the terrorist, the network and how they manufactured the explosive device. >> reporter: just loose ends to chase down, he says. police now know how salman abedi's mom was made in its metal -- bomb was made, a powerful battery triggering it and know about the phone call he made before the attack to tell his mother and brother good-bye and forgive me. last night, manchester's first big event since the bombing. athletics, protected by dozens of armed police. all across britain, police have reviewed and in some cases increased security at more than a thousand sports events this weekend. >> we're continuing with life as normal and showing the terrorists they will not defeat us. >> reporter: increased security, too, in london where 80,000 people will fill a soccer

stadium today for a big final. ♪ the american pop star ariana grande whose concert was attacked, has pledged to return. >> it has been an emotional roller coaster. >> reporter: with medical staff at a children's hospital, are overwhelmed, but getting support from america and every day, more tears, more vigils, more mothers and children remembered, a city struggling to recover. well part of that recovery is the games, the athletics being staged here today. it really is a fantastic event. the athletes actually out on tracks that are built on the streets. among those world-class athletes are american stars all of them, of course, very well protected by armed police, some of the armed police just near us right now. and all of them, all of them hoping that this can be the beginning of a recovery. the terror threat level being reduced. all of it the beginning of

manchester's rise again after a very, very tough week. thomas? >> bill neely in manchester for us, thank you. appreciate it. when we come back, we are taking a pause to remember and celebrate the life of a man very near and dear to many of us here at msnbc and the nbc news family. ♪ i love you, basement guest bathroom. your privacy makes you my number 1 place... ...to go number 2. i love you, but sometimes you stink. ♪

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some sad news to pass along as we celebrate an remember someone close to us here at msnbc and nbc news. he was a global figure and leading statesman and someone we loved and adored around 30 rock. we mourn the passing of zbigniew brzezinski, father and wonderful guy of mika brzezinski on "morning joe." my colleague morgan radford shares her thoughts about the man president carter called brilliant, dedicated and loyal. >> it will be a time which will demand the very best from us. >> reporter: zbigniew brzezinski, a towering figure in american foreign policy.

he served as president jimmy carter's national security adviser for carter's entire term. >> that land over there, is yours. you'll go back to it one day. >> reporter: the polish-born diplomat who fled his home country as a child with the rise of hitler, was known as a tough figure both in washington and abroad. he faced some of the biggest foreign policy challenges of our era the taking of american hostages in tehran, the failed rescue mission, and the soviet invasion of afghanistan. brzezinski was fiercely anti-russian and worked tirelessly to hold back the soviet tide. he also brokered peace deals between the egyptians and israelis at camp david. three months later he led the way for the u.s. to normalize relations with china. >> then we had a general review of the international situation, covering many issues of concern. >> reporter: his death announced by his daughter, or colleague, "morning joe" co-host mika brzezinski. my father passed away peacefully

tonight. he was known to his friends as big, to his grandchildren as chief and his wife as the love of her life. i just knew him as the most inspiring, loving and devoted father any girl could ever have. >> morgan radford reporting. brzezinski just turning 89 years old in march. and we send our love and our condolences to mika's family.

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hi, everybody. welcome back. i'm thomas roberts at msnbc world head quarters in new york. 32 past the hour. this what is we're following for you. the second full day for the president at the g7 summit in italy and the final day of his first international trip. the president will head back to washington later today under this growing cloud of scandal. the headlines have been scathing since he's been gone. kristen welker traveling with the president and joining us from italy. kristen, president trump returns

to a white house with major new developments on the russia investigation and issues with his son-in-law, one of his top advisors? >> the russia controversy is only mounting, thomas. you're absolutely right. the latest headline from "the washington post," not independently confirmed by nbc news, the "post" reporting his son-in-law jared kushner wanted to set up a secret back channel with the russians through sergey kislyak the russian ambassador and essentially wanted to give a direct channel between the russians and mike flynn who was going to be the national security adviser. this conversation taking place in early december. before president trump even took office. now "the new york times" adding a little nugget to that effectively saying, that the reason for the back channel was to discuss syria policy. now, the white house hasn't responded, of course. we've put out a number of calls and e-mails and requests for comment. so far they're not weighing in. we do know that president trump is bracing for all of this. he is prepared to go back to

washington really get down to the damage control effectively. they're setting up a war room. it's going to be headed by reince priebus, steve bannon, and jared kushner. we also reported this week, of course, thomas, that jared kushner is being scrutinized by the fbi. he's not the subject and the target of the investigation, but they want to know what information he has. what he knows about some of those main players that they're looking into. so this russia probe only continues to expand and really to cast a cloud over president trump. this week has given the president some of his most positive headlines to date, but that could likely change as soon as he gets back to washington, thomas. >> you are definitely right about that. let's just focus on geets yo political front -- geopolitical front. the g7, the leaders bringing up the issue of climate change there. has there been any agreement by trump to reconsider the position about the paris accord? >> no agreement yet. let me read you what president

trump tweeted moments ago. he said, i will make my final decision on the paris accord next week. now, what do these g7 leaders want? they want some type of an international accord, a communique, some piece of paper that says they're all on the same page when it comes to climate. they're still trying to hammer something out. but the president, of course, weighing the possibility of pulling out of the paris climate agreement, something that would be a highly controversial move and a lot of g7 leaders are pressuring him not to do. but remember as a candidate he's someone who referred to climate change as a hoax and has since walked back those comments, softened those comments, but there's still a lot of concern here among the other leaders he might pull out. however, one of his top advisors, gary cohn, saying he's evolving on the issue. so bottom line he will make a decision next week. nerms of the tangibles -- in terms of the tangibles the president touting his nato meeting, his tweet about that and do analysis on the other side, many nato countries have

agreed to step up payments considerably as they should, money is beginning to pour in, nato will be much stronger. of course this is president trump's big issue. he has expressed criticism of the nato countries that they haven't effectively been living up to their fair share and that's costing american taxpayers. based on the tweet seems as though more nations have agreed to increase their payments. what specifically will that look like and what are the dollar amounts that still remains to be seen. the other big tangible on this trip he struck that arms deal with saudi arabia a week ago, but what he didn't get done, thomas, he wanted to restart peace talks in the middle east between the israelis and palestinians, that is something that didn't happen on this trip. so he did get some of those positive headlines that he was looking for, but not all of the tangibles. thomas? >> yes. the united states is waiting for him and those headlines aren't good. kristen welker in italy, safe travels and great work. you've been working 24/7. >> thank you. >> joining me john, former chief of staff for secretary of state

john kerry. it's great to have you with us. reuters is reporting about the jared kushner issue that he had these three previously undisclosed contacts with sergey kislyak the russian ambassador in d.c. they're pushing back through his lawyers saying he made thousands of calls at this time, really has no recollection of it. is sergey kislyak that unforgettable? >> no, not unforgettable at all and given how unusual it is for a campaign, let alone once you've already come into office to be in contact with a whole slew of foreign officials, let alone russian officials, when the united states is a bit at odds with russia on policy grounds, it's hard to imagine that somebody would forget those sorts of contacts. and again, the big question here, which remains unanswered, in spite of the revelations we've seen, what were they talking about and why were these contacts taking place. the fact of the contacts, which has been denied repeatedly by the trump administration during the campaign and then subsequently, has now been proven i think beyond any real doubt, but the question now

becomes, what were they talking about? i think the special counsel will be looking very closely into that as will the committees in congress that are investigating this. >> so i think john, when we think about what's been put out by reuters and "the washington post" and the "post" going as far as saying the kislyak communiques back to russia informed them of kushner's interest in establishing this back channel communication with the kremlin, using the russian embassy as the hub to do it, it's almost too implausible to believe, could it be russia duping americans? and they're trying to set up kushner and the trump administration? >> honestly, thomas, it could be almost anything at this point and the troubling part of this, again, is that there may be a reasonable explanation for why the president or why the president's advisors were in contact with russia so frequently during this period, reuters reported now 18 more undisclosed contacts between

various trump campaign officials -- >> john specifically about this back channel, to communicate with the embassy to russia, if that were true, what are the motives? >> i mean, i've never heard of anything like this. one motive that would -- doesn't really make sense on policy grounds but it might make sense in terms of explaining what they were trying to do is to avoid being detected by american intelligence services and you have to wonder why a campaign would be more trusting of the russian government and its intelligence services than of the american government and its intelligence services. remember back during this period it was when president trump was repeatedly attacking american intelligence saying he didn't trust it, declining to read the presidential daily brief in the morning, so it does fit a pattern taking place at the time. >> so reuters is reporting that the administration and we just heard from our kristen welker reporting out of italy, setting up this war room to respond to inquiries about issues moving forward. in your opinion, john, is this moving really swiftly?

everybody harkens back to watergate, that took years, this has only been months? >> i think we have a different media environment than we did in the watergate era when there were a few big news organizations competing over these stories and it was an sbens competition and news was -- intense competition and news broken frequently during that time. many more eyes, many more ears, much more focus and intensity and a higher pace of revelations so i think they're going to need this war room, whether those are the people who should be running it i think is a different question, particularly mr. kushner, if he is one of the people on whom the inquiries are focused, but that's really up to the white house to decide. you get a bit of a respite from these domestic issues when overseas but they will come back with a vengeance the minute they arrive in washington. >> what is the impact of the perception of america on the world stage to our allies? >> our allies are going to be looking at geopolitics more than american domestic politics but the problem there is an interplay between the two. our allies will be seeing things like the president showing up in

nato, not, you know, reaffirming america's commitment to collective self-defense or mentioning russia at all, and then going to the g7, and there was the appearance of disunity there too, for example, on the paris climate agreement, where six other countries in the final communique will endorse paris an the united states will say still reviewing it. taking one step back, the g7 has only existed for three years. before that we had the g-8. the country that dropped out of the g-8 was russia. and dropped out because it was at odds with the world over the invasion and activities in ukraine. now it seems increasingly at the united states is at odds with the other g7 countries put that together with what's going on domestically and the focus of the trump administration's ties with russia it creates suspicion and mistrust. >> great to have you on, john. appreciate your perspective and we will be talking again soon. thank you. >> thank you. >> what explanation could be behind jared kushner wanting to have a secret channel to the kremlin? if all of that is true, instead of just relying on regular u.s.

government messages to relay back and forth? coming up in our next hour, one more reason that could be longer. new screening tests for airline passengers this who holiday weekend. lines that could be much longer. it's a holiday weekend. we're back in a moment.

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program for sirius xm and rick tyler former cruz campaign spokesman and msnbc political analyst. rick i want to come out of the gate with you. remember when donald trump had the big war with ted cruz and said i'm going to spill the beans on heidi cruz. what was he talking about? and was he getting some type of data and source information from russian folks or hackers? what do you know from the inside about what donald trump was trying to do to your candidate at that time, ted cruz? >> honestly, i have no idea what he was referring to. and to this day i don't know what he was referring to. >> do you think there's connective tissue with these reveals coming out, rick, that he had some type of inside hand to beat your candidate? >> i don't. we did a deep dive on ted cruz not only with the candidate but external to the candidate and we went deeply into his background and i don't know anything that would be explosive that donald

trump could reveal about ted cruz. >> okay. i just wanted to get that out of the way because i've always been curious about that. >> me too. >> as the rest of the world. so let's get to the portion from "the washington post" and just to let you know, nbc news has not independently confirmed on our own part the "post" story but the kushner attorney is releasing a statement to push back on what the reuters report had said and had to deal with these phone calls between kushner and kislyak saying mr. kushner participated in thousands of calls in this time period and he has no recollection of the calls as skrigds. we have asked reuters for the dates of such alleged calls so we may look into it and respond, but we have not received such information. is sergey kislyak that unforgettable they need to go to reuters for the specific days and times and use that as a way to punt on answering did kushner contact kislyak and not disclose it? >> i don't think he's forgettable and i think that

from the standpoint of kushner's lawyer, a smart way to buy time to figure out what to do. obviously this story is huge. i mean it's -- it's dominating the media right now and everybody will want to know what happened and when did it happen and the extent of what was discussed. this is part of the challenge, by the way, when you are in the white house with the president of the united states and one of his most trusted advisors, everything is scrutinized about your life, especially if you had contact with foreign powers, foreign ambassadors especially russian ambassadors. this is a way to buy time to figure out how best to deal with this challenge. it's going to continue to dominate the news. everybody wants to know. and it's not going away any time soon. >> if the shoe were on the other foot and we were dealing with a different white house and instead of talking about jared and ivanka, we were talking about mark and chelsea, how would that play? >> i think a little bit differently. i think essentially, republicans would be storming the white house gates and demanding

hillary clinton's resignation if that were the case. if this were mark and he was caught on intercepts trying to set up a secret line of communication with russia, a hostile foreign power, and if you sort of extrapolate this out, think about the timing of all of this, what had just happened. russia hacked our election. 17 intelligence agencies told us before the election in october it was russia who did the hacking and it was with the intention of helping donald trump. jared kushner was the head of data and analytics for the donald trump presidential campaign. and we now know through cnn's reporting this week that there were strategic facebook ads taken out in states like wisconsin and michigan and pennsylvania targeting specific groups of voters who were persuadable and you have to wonder now, as we're putting some of these pieces together in terms of what jared kushner was doing, before and after the election, when you put the pieces together you wonder,

could there have been some sort of coordination there. or at least, you know, a blind eye to what the russians were doing because you wonder, why are you talking to the russians and why are you trying to set up a secret line of communication on the heels of them attacking our democracy. >> the other issue that played out, to ser lena's point, rick, private server, hillary clinton, private server. the home brewed, home cooked thing in the basement in chappaqua. did the trump folks think they'd be able to get away with putting something under the same roof and get away with it? >> i have no doubt the post reporting ambassador kislyak did say to superiors jared kushner wanted to set up a back channel of communications. in fact, kislyak said he wanted to do it in the russian embassy

using their facilities which, if true, is shocking. remember, sometimes the russians will say things when they know americans are listening. i don't say that in a way to defend kushner. i'm just saying let's wait until the facts come out. if true, it is explosive and extraordinary. either it is -- it's highly malicious or it's stunningly naive, in which case jared kushner should not be invited by the president on anything. >> we've waded way too far into the waiters of the boy who cried wolf. >> we still don't have a denial from the white house. the idea that kushner couldn't remember a phone call with the russian ambassador is absurd. >> rick, joe, zerlina, stick with us. also, what ben carson had to say in his latest speech on the topic of poverty. it's all a state of mind.

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i think poverty to a large extent is also a state of mind. and you take somebody with the wrong mindset, you can give them everything in the world. they'll work their way back down to the bottom. >> urban and housing secretary ben carson and his thoughts on poverty. sticking with us, joe, zerlina and rick are still here. zerlina, i saw your tweet and you said next month i'm going to tell my landlord i paid my rent with positive thinking. that would be a great thing. break apart what carson said and why it isn't more of a promotion -- if you look at it through a different lens, he's talking about the american dream and maybe how it's been too illusive for folks. >> look, i think that his comments just showed a lack of

compassion and empathy for people who are living in poverty. it's not by their choice. no one chooses to live in poverty. there are a number of different reasons why people need resources, they need food stamps or assistance, access to affordable health care, for example. a lot of -- millions of americans living in poverty are actually children. i think his comments really were tone deaf in the face of plenty of available evidence and facts as to what causes poverty, what leads people into poverty. his own life experience, he was speaking from experience saying, well, my mother taught me i was a winner and this is why i was able to succeed. who is to say that every child living in poverty, their parents aren't doing the exam same things, but aren't lucky enough to be able to rise out of poverty or given opportunities and chances to excel. i was being very sarcastic in my tweet, and i come from a very privileged background. i was able to have a public

education that was extremely excellent in millburn, new jersey. that's because my parents move me to a town that had upper, middle class mostly students and a high tax rate and a really vast tax base to make sure my education was quality, but that is luck. and i think it's really unfair for folks to be judged in such a problematic way for choices they didn't make. >> zerlina, well said. thank you very much. joe and rick, zerlina said everything and we're out of time. i love you all and happy memorial day weekend. >> thank you. >> still ahead, i'll ask a trump supporters if jared kushner should step down given the new reports that are breaking about him. back in a moment. that's why i have the spark cash card from capital one. with it, i earn unlimited 2% cash back on all of my purchasing. and that unlimited 2% cash back from spark means

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