when you have the right financial advisor, life can be brilliant. ameriprise it's been a night of breaking news on top of breaking news. president trump's son-in-law jared kushner had at least three previously undisclosed contacts with the russian ambassador to the united states during and after the 2016 presidential campaign. seven current and former u.s. officials told reuters. tonight's reuters report also notes fbi investigators are examining whether russians suggested to kushner or other trump aides that relaxing economic sanctions would allow

russian banks to offer financing to people with ties to trump, said the current law enforcement official. who was a source for that article. joining us now is jonathan landei, the reuters reporter who has just broken this story. jonathan, this is a story coming on top of an earlier story tonight by "the washington post," but tonight it's all about jared kushner. it's all about how much contact did he have with russian officials, and what has reuters learned? >> so we've learned that there were at least three calls between jared kushner and the russian ambassador sergey kislyak. two of them before the election and there were contacts after the election, not only between mr. kushner and mr. kislyak, but also president trump's former national security adviser, general michael flynn.

we learned -- and we reported this last week about mr. flynn and his conversations after the election which were centered on setting up a back channel that -- between president trump and president putin that would have circumvented u.s. national security agencies because neither side trusted them. we learned that mr. kushner was also part of those discussions. that was reported by "the washington post" first this evening. and as you pointed out, we've learned that mr. kushner is being looked at. those contacts between mr. kushner and mr. kislyak are being looked at by the fbi as part of their counterintelligence investigation. >> and jonathan, one of the issues facing jared kushner is why did you not disclose all of these contacts? and if the defense is, i didn't disclose them because it was just an oversight, the more

contacts he has, the more of these that pile up, the less credible the oversight explanation is. >> let's not forget that at first the white house denied that there were any contacts between mr. kushner and the russians. and then that was chang to acknowledgment that there were two contacts. one during a foreign policy speech by president trump, then candidate trump last april. we were told that took place at a reception that took place during the speech. and also there was an acknowledgment by the white house of a meeting at trump tower in december between mr. kushner and mr. kislyak. but as far as these other contacts go, there was no acknowledgment. we talked to mr. kushner's attorney this evening who said that he had thousands of calls over this period of time and was

unable to recall the calls that we reported about. >> jonathan, did you ask the attorney if jared kushner normally would take notes in calls like this? this is a very important call that we're talking about that he doesn't remember. >> there was no acknowledgment of the calls. so -- of those calls. and so, no, we didn't. simply because there was no acknowledgment of the call. i should point out there was no denial either. >> very important distinction. jonathan, thank you for joining us withior breaking news out of reuters tonight. >> my pleasure. in tonight's other breaking news story, "the washington post" saved its best for last this week reporting tonight that jared kushner decided it was so important for him and other

trump transition team officials to have secret communications directly with the kremlin, not just the russian ambassador in washington, but with the kremlin, that jared kushner suggested an idea to the russ n russians that one former senior intelligence official in "the washington post" story called, quote, extremely naive or absolutely crazy. those are the only choices that an experienced intelligence official could see to describe jared kushner's conduct revealed by "the washington post" tonight. extremely naive or absolutely crazy. extremely naive or absolutely crazy. of course, it is possible to be both extremely naive and absolutely crazy. listen to the lead of "the washington post" story, and you decide. extremely naive or absolutely crazy. jared kushner and russia's ambassador to washington discussed the possibility of setting up a secret and secure communications channel between trump's transition team and the

kremlin, using russian diplomatic facilities in an apparent move to shield their pre-inauguration discussions from monitoring. according to u.s. officials briefed on intelligence reports. the united states keeps the russian ambassador and the russian embassy under close watch. and it seems to have paid off in this case. "the washington post" reports ambassador sergey kislyak reported to his superiors in moscow that kushner, then president-elect trump's son-in-law and confidante, made the proposal during a meeting on december 1st or 2nd at trump tower, according to intercepts of russian communications that were reviewed by u.s. officials. kislyak said kushner suggested using russian diplomatic facilities in the united states for the communications. the meeting also was attended by michael flynn, trump's first

national security adviser. and so tonight we have just moved a little closer to an explanation of why president trump seemed so protective of michael flynn, why president trump appointed michael flynn national security adviser even though he knew michael flynn was under fbi investigation, and why after firing michael flynn, president trump continues to say that michael flynn is a good man, and why some reports indicate that president trump hopes that michael flynn will be able to return to the white house service some day. why? why is president trump so protective of michael flynn? one answer may be that president trump knows that michael flynn was in that meeting when jared kushner suggested using russian diplomatic facilities for communicating directly with the kremlin. president trump should by now know that jared kushner could be

convicted of a felony and be sentenced to five years in prison for not revealing that meeting in his security clearance form. michael flynn has said through his lawyer that he has a story to tell. and he would like immunity to tell that story. now we know that michael flynn has a very, very important story to tell about jared kushner's meeting with the russian ambassador at trump tower. when michael flynn finally does tell his story of that meeting that he was in, the question tonight is, will he say, will michael flynn say that jared kushner was being extremely naive or absolutely crazy? or will chael ynn fer a third description? that includes the possibility of criminal intent? it has been another very, very bad week of news for the trump

administration, but tonight's report is the worst news yet. for the trump family. joining us now by phone is one of the reporters who broke that story tonight in "the washington post," greg miller. greg, thank you very much for joining us tonight. really appreciate it. this is a breakthrough on top of the reporting of 24 hours ago that indicated the fbi was interested in jared kushner. what more can you tell us? what do you think are the most important elements in your story tonight? >> well, i think that combination is important. you can begin to understand here why the fbi would be so interested in kushner and his contacts with kislyak and other russians. i mean, if they are sitting on intelligence reports in which that russian ambassador is telling his bosses in moscow you're not going to believe this, but trump's son-in-law wants a secure channel to talk

with the kremlin and actually discussed using our facilities, russian facilities in the united states to accomplish that. i mean, it's really easy to see why the bureau would want to understand why that was so important, why the trump transition team and one ofhe most senior figures in it would want that kind of arrangement. >> and greg, any indication as to timing of exactly when this information was intercepted? apparently, according to your report, it appears as if intelligence agencies intercepted the ambassador's communication to moscow about this. >> that's right. and so it's likely that that was intercepted shortly after the meeting at trump tower, right. so this is not surveillance of that meeting. it is the russian ambassador coming out of that meeting and communicating with moscow about what took place. it's very similar actually to,

well, we've seen in the past that the communications of the russian ambassador were under surveillance. this actually takes place several weeks before kislyak is recorded in a conversation with michael flynn, a conversation in which flynn discusses sanctions, u.s. sanctions against russia with kislyak. a conversation that leads to flynn losing his job just 24 days into the trump administration. >> and how much do we know about kislyak's reaction to this proposal by jared kushner which would be presumably as shocking to the russian side as it is to us to hear? >> yeah, i mean the way it was characterized to us is that it appeared that the russian ambassador was taken aback by this idea. and it's easy to see why. i mean, for russian officials in the united states, they would probably regard it as highly important to have secure

communications back to moscow that are beyond the reach of u.s. surveillance, right? why would they want to bring an american into their version of a scif, a secure compartmented facility, where their communications gear are set up to have communications with moscow that can't be intercepted. why would they want an american on that line? >> greg miller, thank you very much for joining us tonight with this stunning report. another one in "the washington post." really appreciate it. we're joined now by max boot, senior fellow for national security studies at the council on foreign relations. also with us ken vogel, chief investigative reporter for politico. and mieke eoyang. she is a lawyer, a former house intelligence committee staff member, and now the vice president for national security programs at the third way. mieke, i wanted to get your reaction to this, since you're

an intelligence professional having worked on the intelligence committee in the house. you hear what we've just heard from both the reuters report, more contacts than we knew about between jared kushner and russians, and now this blockbuster in "the washington post" tonight about a suggestion -- jared kushner suggesting to the russian ambassador, can we come into your embassy and use your secure communications to moscow, presumably for communication that he didn't trust to just transmit directly to the ambassador. they wanted to transmit directly to moscow. >> i mean, this report is -- it's almost too shocking to be believed, the idea that jared kushner would say to the russians, i need to have a secure, classified channel in your embassy? knowing perhaps that the russian embassy is under surveillance? and so going in and out of that facility would really raise red flags to be able to say who knows what?

it is naive or crazy or deceptive. it is just amazing. but then the other question is why now? why is this happening now? >> and ken vogel, let's just remember, jared kushner is the least experienced person, least qualified person ever to work in a white house prior to january 20th. now he is in a competition in this white house with other inexperienced, unqualified people to be in the white house like bannon and a bunch of others. but it is conceivable that kushner had no idea that there would be a clear fbi record. they would know exactly who went into a russian embassy or who went into a russian facility, diplomatic facility anywhere in this country. >> yeah, a couple of things, lawrence. first of all, it suggests that

this request was indeed made that he wants to say something to the russians that he doesn't want u.s. intelligence to be privy too, to be able to eavesdrop on through the normal channels that it might otherwise do so. the naivete comes in when it's presented as you just did. that, in fact, this means that he suggested would not be that solution. the other thing that i think is notable here is the presence of mike flynn. you mentioned jared kushner. maybe you can chalk it up to naivete. maybe he doesn't have a whole lot of experience. doesn't have any experience in government. doesn't have a whole lot of experience in dealing with international government leaders. mike flynn does. and mike flynn has a very well-developed sort of theory of the cia and of the u.s. intelligence community, and he is deeply distrustful of it. and my intelligence sources tell me that they feared that this distrust for the cia and for other parts of the u.s. intelligence apparatus that flynn harbored was seeping into

the broader campaign and the trump -- donald trump himself but also the trump brain trust you could potentially see it playing out here, if kushner believes like flynn does that the cia is not to be trusted, maybe that would be one possible explanation for what otherwise i agree with mieke is sort of an inexplicable request from kushner. >> go ahead, max. go ahead. >> i was struck, lawrence, by one of the lines in the reuters story which you quoted earlier where it said that fbi investigators are examining whether the russians suggested to kushner or other trump aides that relaxing economic sanctions would allow russian banks to offer financing to people with ties to trump. now that's pretty significant because that offers a possible motive for why kushner would do something this sneaky, underhanded and surreptitious, going so far as to actually suggest using the communications channels of the russians. remember, this is after a campaign in which trump and his senior people were saying "lock her up" because they claimed hillary clinton was committing this incredible security breach

by using a private e-mail server. ll, what do you call ung the e-mail servers and the communications channels of you main adversary, which is what they were planning to do here? and that really raises the question, as we've been discussing, about why would they do this? reuters offers a possible explanation. you can also speculate perhaps there was a payoff here that the russians helped to get donald trump elected, and there was an expectation on their part that they would get a payoff in the form of sanctions being lifted and perhaps trump and his associates would also benefit from the lifting of sanctions. this is a blockbuster, shocking story that we really need to get to the bottom of. >> mieke, i want to go -- >> go ahead. >> the timing. mieke was saying the timing of why this is coming out now. i agree. that's also interesting. and you can posit that maybe someone has it in for kushner. i don't think that's completely

unfounded as to why this would be coming out now. but the timing of the actual meeting and of the request, this is after the election. the reuters story raises the interesting fact pattern that this conversation between kushner and the russians was happening before the election. that's notable because it raises questions about what he is trying to broker or discuss before that. but this is after the election. you know he is going. he is a part of the transition team, at least there was a prospect of him going into the white house. they would have every right to set up a line of communication or start a sort of foundation to have a conversation with the russians through, you know, governmental means that the u.s. government would sort of provide them with the security to do so, so that he is making this request at that moment as even more inexplicable. >> lawrence, on this question of timing -- >> there is so much more to come out of the ambassador's report to the kremlin on that meeting, because in tonight's report, we

know what jared kushner said, according to the report, that he is suggesting that they have this communication set up this way. but there is nothing in it about what mike flynn said. it does indicate that mike flynn was present, but there is nothing about what michael flynn said. and that could be a whole other chapter of this particular story. >> yes. and i think it's important that we have investigators who get to the bottom of this, the special counsel, the congressional investigations. but really what troubles me about the timing of all these leaks now is when they're coming from inside the intelligence community itself. it suggests to me that intelligence officials may not have confidence that their information are going to get to appropriate authorities who might be able to do something with this. that perhaps there is an attempt to stifle information coming from people inside the administration. so people feel like they need to put the information out now. and if they don't have credible channels, they need to bring it in. >> i think that's an excellent point. >> go ahead, max.

you have to be deeply suspicious of what jared kushner is up to here sitting at the right hand of the president because this is not the only connection he has with the russians. we also know that in this same time frame where he was trying to set up the secret communications channel with sergey kislyak, he was also meeting with the head of a sanctioned russian bank, a former kgb officer who is very close to putin. what the heck were they discussing? we also knowby t way, lawrence, that i think it was last week cnn reported that the russians orchestrated a massive propaganda/advertising campaign on facebook to try to help donald trump get elected. well, who was the head of data analytics for the trump campaign? yes, that would be jared kushner. so maybe they had something significant to discuss during the course of the campaign last year. these are all the kinds of questions that robert mueller and the fbi need to get to the bottom of because this is -- you know, jared kushner we're talking about here. this is not somebody like carter page where they can say, oh, yeah, he was deeply enmeshed

with the kremlin. but he was a marginal figure. trump never met him. he was a nobody. this is jared kushner, the president's son-in-law. this about as close as you can possibly get to the president himself. >> ken, one more quick thing about the leaks. it is possible that the leaks, that part of the motivation for the leaks about these stories is speed, is that there could be a worry inside the intelligence community that precautions will not be taken fast enough to control people like jared kushner and perhaps a leak to "the washington post" might be the fastest inhibitor of his conduct? >> yeah. although this leak, as i understood it, actually came in the form of a letter in december. >> yes. >> it took "the post" some time to put the pieces together. so maybe we put ourselves back in that time frame in december when we didn't know what was going to happen with this investigation. we didn't know whether there would be a special prosecutor and whether jeff sessions would cuse himse. now it seems like there may be me assurances fofolks who are worried about who have

access to information, yet are worried that that information will not be able to get into the sort of bloodstream of the investigation and fully accessed by investigators. so i think that some of this is probably a little bit of like a delayed timing sort of thing. i do also think that there may be an effort to -- by political foes to put the heat on jared kushner. i texted with a senior administration official. i said, how bad is this for jared kushner? he said very bad. >> yeah, mieke, i want to go to the legal liability that jared kushner has on not disclosing these meetings. let's for the moment leave aside the content of the meetings, which could also have a legal liability in it. but not disclosing these meetings for his security clearance, if he is going make the defense that, well, i just forgot, or it was inadvertent, the number of meetings, and now we know tonight, the dramatic content of at least one of these

meetings makes it seem like something that would be very hard to forget, very hard to just be an oversight when you're filling out these forms. >> yeah, that's right. and the statute says it's a maximum penalty of five years, and there are significant fines. often we have seen in these cases where it really is people having oversight, that the penalties are not that big. but when it's for substitute for espionage, it can be quite severe. >> lawrence, the penalties are potentially not just for jared kushner, they're for donald trump. this is a guy who sits at his right hand, very closely connected to him. i find it hard to believe that donald trump did not know what kushner was up to, did not know what flynn was up to. now it's possible that those guys will be good soldiers and will take the hit for him and will not rat him out to e independent counsel, but this certainly increases the jeopardy for trump.

>> ken vogel and mieke eoyang, thanks very much for joining us tonight. i appreciate it. >> thanks. >> we're joined now by david frum, senior editor for the atlantic. i want to get your read of the breaking news on top of the breaking news tonight. it's all about jared kushner now. the last 24 hours has been all about jared kushner. >> i want to pick up and underscore something that max boot said in the last segment because i think it's really important. we have two haves of a broken amulet here. this is the puzzle. on one half, which we're all talking about today, is this sudden urgency of jared kushner to speak to the russians after the election, or even before. but before the transition to get the secret channel up. and why do they want to do that? at the same time, and that is max's reminder that we have had in the past ten days new information urgently. the russians wanted to elect donald trump in 2016. how much more resource they committed to his campaign by buying ads in facebook and other sophisticated techniques than we understood even until now.

these two pieces always have to be seen together. because while -- i think you said earlier that the mind does try to say, is there some innocent explanation for why jared kushner would do this? maybe he wants to play junior henry kissinger and just lost the plot. but you have to remember that other piece. and that other piece is just not cons witthe junior henry kissinger approach to the story. >> and david, again, i want to go to the idea, you have worked in the white house. you know what it's like to fill out disclosure forms of various kinds of financial disclosure, all sorts of things. people do forget to include certain things. when you are making that defense that i just forgot, we look at how much you forgot. and how big that thing was that you forgot. and that's when we start to doubt that you just forgot. >> look, i had to fill out a form that said how many times have you crossed the border. and at that time we had young children and two sets of grandparents living in canada. and we drove back and forth all the time.

and i said to the white house counsel, i will never be able to get this exactly right. this is also before electronic calendars. he said it would be an innocent mistake. don't worry about it. so you do make mistakes, and there are allowances for innocent mistakes. this is so obviously not forgetting one of the trips to the grandparents' house. this is a different kind of thing. no one is going believe this is an innocent mistake. >> we're joined by indira lakshmanan, washington columnist for "the boston globe." and evelyn farkas, former deputy assistant of defense assistant policy toward russia. evelyn farkas, i need to get your reaction to this report tonight indicating that jared kushner suggested to the russian ambassador we would like to come into your place and use your secure communication apparently to communicate with your boss. because talking to the russian

ambassador wasn't good enough, apparently, for jared kushner. he wanted to talk directly to the kremlin. >> lawrence, it's unfathomable. i don't think i'm supposed to tear my hair out on tv, but i don't understand this. first of all, they were about to take office anyway. so i don't understand why the need for secrecy. and they're hiding from their own government, from their own government officials. from the united states of america. i mean, this whole thing is unbelievable to me, frankly speaking. and to say that you would go into the russian embassy, you're then becoming part of their intelligence operation in the sense. and i'm not surprised that the russian ambassador would be taken aback. we set up secret -- not secret. the content was secret, but we set up communications channels. the public knew we did it with the russian military, military to military channels. and that requires the communications teams from each side to cooperate together. but they do it very carefully so

that there is nothing that is revealed from either side. and the fact that jared kushner and whoever else was involved in this could just have such a flagrant disrespect for the united states people, the united states intlie community, the united states secrets that they thought they could operate with the russian government is staggering. >> indira, of course nothing like this could ever have happened in a previous white house administration. this is a uniquely trumpian event that we're talking about tonight. but if anything like this ever did happen in any other white house, jared kushner would be fired by now, by the second hour of the existence of this report at the very, very latest be fired or resignation demanded tomorrow morning in the white house, and that press release would go out. he is no longer with us. what will jared kushner -- what

will this mean to jared kushner's future in his father-in-law's white house? >> well, a couple of things. first of all, i don't want to declare him guilty before we know all of the facts. it certainly -- the mind boggles at the reports that we have seen, as evelyn said and david said. it is hard to comprehend if this story is true why there would be any purpose for setting up this kind of a back channel. it is truly bizarre. when you see people saying is this ignorance or is this treasonous, there are also people saying there can be a pattern of ignorance that takes you unwittingly down the path to treason maybe before you know it. i think the point that you're making about how anyone else, their head would be on a plate and they'd have to turn in their resignation. this is part of the problem with having family members in the white house. and that is part of the reason that most administrations have anti-nepotism policies. you don't generally have your close family members as your immediate advisers. it's just generally not done.

so, you know, of course the president is overseas. this is an unusual situation. but we know with him that blood is thicker than anything else, or through marriage in this case. and i'm sure that he'll stand behind kushner. so we're just going to have to see how this plays out. >> it may be more than just blood. it's also that donald trump, if the business interests explanation -- >> maybe money. >> -- should be proven correct, we still have no idea how much donald trump owes and to whom he owes it. remember that line, what does the president know and when did he know it? in this case, what does the president owe and to whom does he owe it? that is the overriding question in this administration. and maybe this is part of the answer to the question. >> evelyn, go ahead with the point that it may be money, especially in the reuters report tonight we're hearing that the possibility of maybe if you soften the sanctions or remove the sanctions from russia, russian banks will now be able

to help out trump friends. >> well, this is the thing. all along, we've been getting this dribble drabble of information about the trump organization's dealings with russia. it appears that russians invested heavily, per the trump sons, invested heavily in trump enterprises. also, we have reports of real estate transactions that occurred using russian money. obviously the fbi is looking into all of this. and where these reports about jared kushner talking with the kremlin or with russians intersect has to do with sanctions. the russians want the sanctions lifted. it wouldn't be the whole kit and caboodle because what they really want is a free hand all over eastern europe, first and foremost. but certainly they want those sanctions lifted. >> evelyn farkas, thank you very much for joining tonight. really appreciate it. >> thank you. coming up, if the russians didn't know that u.s. spies were listening to their ambassador, they do now.

of course, they have always known that, but maybe jared kushner didn't know it. former director of the cia john mclaughlin will join us next. with this level of intelligence... it's a supercomputer. with this grade of protection... it's a fortress. and with this standard of luxury... it's an oasis. the 2017 e-class. it's everything you need it to be... and more. lease the e300 for $569 a month at your local mercedes-benz dealer. mercedes-benz. the best or nothing. there's thing reimportante than my vacation. so when i need to book a hotel room, i want someone that makes it easy to find what i want. booking.com gets it. and with their price match, i know i'm getting the best price every time. now i can start relaxing even before the vacation begins.

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joining us now, john mclaughlin, the 32-year veteran of the cia, and was the acting cia director. he is also an msnbc national security analyst. i just want to, john, reread this lead paragraph from "the washington post" tonight for anyone in our audience who is joining late. and none of us have read this only once. and so the audience will experience what we've all done, which is read it a couple of times to really comprehend it and believe what we're reading. it says "jared kushner and russia's ambassador to washington discussed the possibility of setting up a secret and secure communications channel between trump's transition team and the kremlin using russian diplomatic facilities in an apparent move to shield their pre-inauguration discussions from monitoring, according to u.s. officials briefed on intelligence

reports." john mclaughlin, you worked in the cia. you come across say an intercepted russian communication which seems to be the source of this. what would be the internal cia reaction to intercepting this communication from the russian ambassador indicating that jared kushner wanted to set up this secret communication? >> well, lawrence, if that's what it was, the first reaction would be, is this a prank? it would be kind of disbelief. because it's not the sort of thing you would expect to happen in a normal transition. so oddly for me, i was thinking about it tonight. i see all of this through the eyes of an intelligence officer, of course. and it is simultaneously familiar and bizarre. familiar in the sense that i know secret channels, used them all my life. bizarre in the sense that it's a

proposed secret channel through the government that is probably the most active government in the world in carrying out espionage against the united states. and at a time, recall the timing here, too. it's on october 3, about two months before this, that the intelligence community, the director of national intelligence in combination with the secretary of homeland security puts out a report with high confidence saying that the russians hacked our election. this is the first of two reports. so in that context, if you were to get this at the cia, having read that and having known that, your first reaction would be could this be true? and then you would discover it is true and move on from there. i don't want to overstate because obviously there is a lot we don't know. we don't know the exact content of the conversation.

we don't know the objective that was stated from the kushner side during the conversation. those things we don't know. but i can't keep out of my mind the thought that if an american intelligence officer had done anything like this, we'd consider it espionage. >> yeah. would it be fair to say that a conversation like that, even if it wasn't -- even if the plan wasn't executed, gives the russians the feeling that they own jared kushner. they own a person from that point forward who would make a suggestion like this? >> i think, you know, we're all struggling to understand. a couple of thoughts here. i think to some degree, the trump administration at the senior levels is being consumed

by its own hubris. they must think of themselves as masters of the universe. and put that in combination with their evident -- and that is what i think bothers me personally the most -- their seeming contempt of american institutions. the denigrating things they've said about everything from our judiciary to our intelligence agencies. these institutions, including in fact the intelligence agencies, because they're closely supervised in thunited state these are the functions of our democracy. and i can't help thinking that in the background of all of this is that sophomoric idea we used to hear about deconstructing the administrative state, that somehow we shouldn't use these institutions. we should use the ones we trust more, the russians? that doesn't make any sense to me. and so, you know, there is a lot we don't know here. and it really does underline again the need for someone as independent as they can be to

take all of this and get to the bottom of it. and pretty quickly. >> john mclaughlin, thank you very much for joining us on this important night. thank you. really appreciate it. >> thank you, lawrence. coming up, it's no wonder that the trump administration cannot get anything done legislatively or anything else because they are now drowning in their connections to russia and the constant daily exposure of the next big story in the scandal that won't go away.

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reuters report revealing that jared kushner had many more contacts with the russian ambassador than has been previously acknowledged, the trump administration let it be known that they were considering creating a war room to deal with all things russia as the investigation widens. their war room was supposed to be led by reince priebus, along with rumored white house rivals steve bannon, and jared kushner was supposed to be one of the leaders, if not the leader of that war room, which now of course will be concentrating on what to do about jared kushner. white house aides tell nbc news that they're preparing for, quote, a new reality, particularly now that special counsel robert mueller is leading the investigation. but the new reality is that jared kushner is in the dead center of that investigation.

back with us david frum and indira lakshmanan. david frum, this war room concept, which was old news because it was something that came out this afternoon, is now supposed to be the place where i guess the great brains of the white house who have no experience dealing with any of this kind of thing would somehow figure out how to spin what it was that jared kushner meant when he suggested to the russian ambassador that the trump transition team should be allowed to use russian communication facilities to communicate directly with the kremlin. >> when you have a good story, you don't set up a war room. you invite the press in, and you take their questions until they get bored asking them. >> yeah. and indira, the war room concept of course is fascinating. they don't want to set up a war room to pass their health care bill. they don't want to set up a war room to try to pass their giant

tax cut because those things just have disappeared from anything that's really happening in washington. it is now all about defense. it is now all about defending the trump transition team, possibly the president himself, and now definitely jared kushner involving their connections to russia. >> i have a new name for them for their room. let's call it the crisis chamber. i mean, this is insanity. first of all, we know that the president himself while on this foreign trip all over the world for nine days outside of his comfort zone and literally shoving nato to the side, you know, he is lawyering up. so he knows that this is getting closer, and taking an outside counsel is something intelligent that trump has done in this rerd. but i think that setting up this what i'm going to continue to call more like a crisis chamber is, again, a strange thing, that

it's being led by the very guy who is the focus of the investigation. you know, we'll see whether he turns into a target. he is not legally a target yet, but the information is coming faster at us than, you know, than we can count. >> david, one of the questions that emerges from almost all of these stories involving russian connections is whose side are they on? whose side is donald trump on? whose side is jared kushner on? why would you want to use russian communication facilities if you really are on the united states' side in the vladimir putin versus the united states challenge that certainly emerged in 2016 with the russians trying to hack our election and other points of friction with russia. whose side are you on becomes the question. and jared kushner saying i want to use your communication facilities certainly is an indication of which side he may be on.

>> let me offer two hypotheses here in one part of the story. a smart hypothesis and a dumb one. as we have learned and talked about earlier, the russians made a much bigger commitment to the donald trump campaign in 2016 as we have learned over the past ten days than we had known even before that. massive organization of facebook ads. now the dumb theory is that the trump/kushner people were so profoundly touched by this that they thought they must like us. they must really like us. let's have a wonderful conversation with them and solve all the problems of the world like junior henry kissingers. the darker theory is that they became aware the russians have stuff on us. and there are people in our campaign who were maybe talking to them. maybe we don't even know what everyone in our campaign was doing and they have us by the throat and we need their good will. >> all right. we're going to take a quick break right here. everybody stay with us. we're going to be right back.

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it's the single most destructive act since the history of the alliance. it's not just a military alliance. nato organized a group of like minded nations who believe in open and free press and free markets. that's the idea of nato. defending ourselves against the soviet union and increasingly russia. no question when you weaken the western alliance as i think the president did today, it strengthens russia. >> david, it raises that question again, whose side is donald trump on when he basically does everything he -- he said everything he could that putin would want him to say about nato. >> i compiled in the atlantic quotes from obama and bush about what they said when they went about the commitment. they closed the door and had a lot of complaints. you don't spend enough and your

military is not sophisticated enough. in public it's one for all. we will defend you. donald trump omitted to say you. that's astonishing. >> it is a piece. what happened with nato is very much a piece of what was happening with jared kushner and seeking to have the secret communication channels opened up. it's something we have never seen before. it is a very, very consistent pro putin posture. >> it's incredible. i think donald trump either doesn't realize or is not willing to understand that the thing about the nato alliance is that it benefitted us, the only time in the whole history of nato since it was created post world war ii that article five article of mutual defense, the only time that has been invoked was for the defense of the united states. that is after the 9/11 attacks

when the rest of nato stood behind the united states and went to war in afghanistan with us. when he stands there at the nato summit literally shoving, you showed the image of him shoving the prime minister to get to the front of the pack there. insultingly says things about you nato allies, we are not sure if you are really up to it and whether we are going to hold up our end of the bargain if you don't do what we want to you do. the baltic states are more than paying their fair share and have been there at our back standing there and helping us in afghanistan. it's pretty insulting. i hear from my sources not only former ambassadors to nato and people who were leaders and leaders are stun aned and extremely upset and insulting angela merkel and saying the

germans are bad. it is stunning. he is praising saudi arabia and repressive states and the philippines and the dictator and not praising our friends who are democrats. >> and david, europeans and members of nato all reading in their own newspapers tomorrow that jared kushner tried to set up the secret communication channel directly to the kremlin. >> holding this alliance is getting harder and harder. a lot of people in europe and germany with an eye on the door. it is a difficult relationship to maintain. what donald trump is doing by attacking the german part, he is striking out the backbone of the whole western alliance and making it easy for bad actors too. >> thank you both for joining us tonight. appreciate it. we will take a greek. we'll be right back. urvivors. we are survivors. we are survivors. and now we take brilinta.

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>> earlier in in hour, mika brzezinski announced that her father, jimmy carter's national security adviser died tonight. he served as a counsellor to president lyndon b johnson from 1966 to 1968. he then served as jimmy carter's national security adviser from 1977 to 1981. ring the carter administration. brzezinski was involved in major foreign policy actions including the normalization of relations with the people's republic of china and the strategic treaty and the brokering of the camp david accords. he died tonight at fairfax hospital in falls church,

virginia. he was 89 years old. breaking news. "the washington post" reporting jared kushner talked with russia's ambassador about a secret communications pipeline to the kremlin and outside of normal u.s. channels. the senate intelligence committee wants it all. all the documents team trump has pertaining to russia. we have that report tonight and will join us as the 11th hour gets under way. good evening once again from our headquarters here in new york. the breaking news we have been covering on this friday night into the memorial day weekend. another bombshell story in the "washington post." let's quote right from the