spicer did not back down on the latest reporting of jared kushner's back channel with the russians. instead he used the podium do some ax grinding. perhaps a window into the president's mounting frustration with his team's inability to change the story line. >> i think that he is frustrated like i am and like so many others to see stories come out that are patently false, to see company unquote fake news. when you see stories get perpetrate that had are false, that are not based in fact, that is troubling. and he's rightly concerned. what i'm telling you is that the reason that the president is frustrated, because there is a per pet chewation of false narratives, a use of unnamed sources over and over again about things that don't ultimately happen. >> joining us are some of the best reporters on the white house beat. hallie jackson, co-author of today's front page new york on times piece, and robert costa

author of plenty of stories of his own. this sounded like a therapy session. i mean, i wanted to hand sean spicer some pills or something. what is going on in that briefing room? >> you said he was advisably irritated. he appeared to be somebody who wanted to get out of the room which we saw him do after about 20 minutes of taking questions and 10 minutes of a fairly lengthy recap of the week that was, his trip overseas, starting with the activities in saudi arabia from what 9 or 10 days ago, notable he wanted to talk about the trip, notable that they didn't hold a briefing occurring that trip except for rex tillerson on day one. now two saturdays ago essentially. so in this briefing i think we saw a couple notable things. highlighted by the nonresponse to the jared kushner drip, drip, drip that has come out now over the past three, four days. sean spicer blasted what he

called a false thenarrative. there was not an alternate set of facts and i think that is fairly significant given the constant questions that the west wing has been fending off related to jared kushner, did he work to establish this back channel. and you also heard sean spicer echo what you heard from mcmaster and others about in general whatould a back channel okay. you heard spicer say these guys have are said that generally diplomatically it's fine. without diving in about to the specificity of the fact that was not actually a member of any administration at the time that allegedly this back channel was developed. a lot of other highlights, too. and i know we'll get there. but the paris climate agreement sort of the responses on that was notable given that we do expect the president to be coming out at least he says with some kind of a decision on that this week. and in light of the relationship now with european allies, with

angela merkel, with what it means to our gmpt 7 -7 allies w was pressuring the president. and of course the comment that his relationship with angela merkel was fairly unbelievable, i think that was striking to a lot of folks in that room. >> he's back and he's back on twitter. and mark, i wonder if you think -- i saw your reporting about what might have motivated the back channel. you write that asserts in mid-december found him in a room with a russian banker. might a plausible explanation for sean spicer's unwillingness or not being prepared to knock this town be tdown be the fact are still in a fact gathering mode? >> that is entirely possible and i think all of us and maybe including sean spicer are trying to learn more and more about the

meetings that jared kushner had in december. in march when we wrote about first the meeting he had with the ambassador kislyak and secondly with a russian banker named gorkov, we wrote that the kislyak meeting seemed to be in an attempt to open up a direct line with moscow. but it was unclear what the gorkov meeting was all about. what we wrote today is that it seemed to at least in part to be done at the be hes of kislyak and that it was done because kushner wanted to have a direct channel to putin, that kislyak didn't think he was the person to do it and gorkov had better ties. where he still all of us trying to learn more about the meetings, what the motives were, and what each side wanted from each other. >> well, the piece is extraordinary. everyone should read the whole thing. but for our viewers, can you sum up will of-because you layout some buckets. there are certain scenarios.

he might have wanted to start acting on foreign policy dealing with with syria. what are some of the reasons that an american staffer in a not yet sworn-in white house would meet with a russian banker who is good buddies with putin? >> good question. i mean, if you look at one scenario, it could be that if he thought that gorkov had a direct line to putin, that they wanted to talk to him before the administration began on january 20th about any number of issues, you know, in and of itself, there is not anything necessarily wrong with that. that is one scenario. if there was -- although if there was an attempt to have sort of more direct conversations about sanctions that are u.s. law right now and the possibility of lifting them, i'm not saying that that is what happened, but that would be more rob matt tic problemat problematic. any other number of scenarios are possible. so we know that the meetings

happened. and but the truth motivations are still a little murky. >> they are murky and it's hard to imagine a aboutbenevolent explanation at this point. but let's give them the benefit of the doubt. why wouldn't you go through the intelligence community or the state department if you really wanted to get read in on conversations or on russia's role vis-a-vis syria? >> well, yeah, recall that during the transition, the trump transition was very unique in the fact that it sort of declined the state department's briefing materials before aboph calls, they declined to use the state department channels to set up phone calls with foreign leaders and they kind of did it on their own. and in the first days foreign leaders were calling in to trump tower looking for calls. >> to the switchboard.

>> right. so there was already the intent to not use the infrastructure in place. now, there was certainly concern that anything done through the state department or the official apparatus might have meant that the obama administration was listening and they were -- some were very paranoid about that. and so i think that that is what you saw to a degree about not only these meetings, but also generally phone calls with foreign leaders. there was a concern about that the apparatus was the enemy and you had to find your own ways of doing things. >> robert costa, you are a full-time citizen of trumplandia and i want to explain to me how the story further sort of breaks down the glow being fissures if you will with alliances around bannon and kellyanne keeper of the flame and jared and some of the professionals, i guess

powelle and cohen and mcmaster. you can tell how the reporting exacerbates those guides? >> some of the things i picked up through my reporting is that this episode about jared kushner's meeting with these russian figures has not only revealed the fizz zssurefissure it has deepened the fissures. while jared is well liked owe a personal level especially by cabinet members, inside of the west wing, he is at times an isolated figure. the rare person who can walk up to the residence, the person who can always be with the president because he's a member of the family. the president's son-in-law. as we look at this potential staff shakeup and all these different issues about the communication side of the white house, what the real story is in my reporting is jared is still there, he's not going anywhere. but at the same time, his presence and the sensitivity

around everything he does has kept a lot of people in the white house walking on pins and needs as they try to navigate the president, jared, the legal situation and the political dynamic. >> and a line from your piece, some white housed discreetly whether jared too should take a leave but reluctant to discuss it with kushner. i got an earful from that side saying that he led three meetings today, that his influence is not at all diminished in that if there is a war roomee rekt erekted, be he be in charge of it. >> and i hope our piece reflects that, as well. >> of course. >> and i'm agreeing because i got the same response from some of jared's allies in the white house. they say there is nothing wrong, there is nothing to see here. and we're not saying that there is something that is of a fois

terms of jared falling out of favor in the white house. but it is accurate to say that when i'm having background conversations with many sources, they do privately say jared's issues politically, legally inside this white house are not entirely helpful. but that didn't mean when they see jared in a meeting or in passing in some kind of administration event they say, hey, jared, all is well, you're leading things at the white house. no one is really at this point willing to con front kushner behind the scenes. >> and everything that you report is always accurate.front behind the scenes. >> and everything that you report is always accurate. i would add even his friends acknowledge that his portfolio is so massive that with no problems, it's really an unimaginable workload. so i think we're are saying the same thing and probably on hearing it from some of the same folks. and now joining us, john heilema heilemann, national affairs analyst. a brand new title. same old -- well, i can't say

same old. same old thorn in my side. >> same old jerk. >> and branding and marketing expert -- we're going to find you a new title. we need rebrand donny by the first break. and we also have jonathan capehart. all right, you guys. so i think that what is clear is that this divide in the white house never went anywhere. so you could take the campaign flame holders off of the north lawn and away from the tv cameras, but kellyanne and steve bannon are still somewhere in the corner calling all of us the anti-christ. the rage that you saw from sean spicer and the excuse that this is all -- you talk about switchboards. donald trump should call his own white house switchboard. literally anyone you get will describe a story of extreme angst, a bit of chaos and a lot

of confusion about the russia inquiry. john heilemann. with your new fancy title. >> well, yes, it is the case that there are two things 245 that are real. one thing is that for something that this level of severity to be happening this early in an administration and for it to reach this high, we have not seen anything like this before about. having to go back to bobby kennedy, to someone who is a member of family operating at this level of influence and now to be ensnared whether rightly or wrongly, we have no idea at this point, but to be ensnared in this early in an administration, this gravity of a scandal, this serious of a person, it will in any organization cause panic, dread, lashing out and other people whether they admit it or not trying to seek advantage in a lot of internal fissures and bowyer games that have played

already where big powerful people have clashed so far. there will be those who will say this is my moment to make a move. >> you used the word organization. and that is the whole point. if you've gone up to trump's old office, people think that he is this big businessman and ran this business big corporation. it was a shoddy little office with a sect outside, his kids running around. there is no organization. he's never run a big big busine business. what you're seeing in the white house is exactly the way he ran his real estate licensing business. so that is from a pure business know did you say uid you say o s dismodus operandi. >> and there was reporting that in addition to that, the inability to have any sort of management acumen, he's also a guy who likes to underare mine and poke at people. >> the poking is in lieu of any structure. even if you go back to his days

in "the apprentice," his two people were the old guy george and -- like there are no "there" theres. >> like the wizard of oz, guy behind the occur are continkucu. >> and as far as the russia thing, my explanation of why a kushner and my head still goes on fire every time we talk about what he is doing, this guy who ran his dad's real estate business for ten years and this is the man in charge of -- >> the world. >> yeah. follow the money. this banker by the former russian ambassador was on earlier can and said if you were going to line up 40 people to get to putin, it would not be this banker. he does not have the inner inner circle thing. he's a banker. follow the money. as time will tell the story, this will all be about the financial connection between the russians and the trumps. >> so what is more troubling then, the effort to get close to putin or the incompetent effort to get close to putin? >> both.

it's almost comical listening to sean be spicer sort of three minute diatribe talking about how wonderful this trip was overseas, sort buying himself time nowing what the first question was going to be. and of course it was going to be about jared are going back to the organization. they had four days to can up with some sort on of structured response, some about about sort of answer back regarding jared's involvement here and the stories that came out on friday. and back to the "new york times" story, what stood out to me, there were sources that said administration officials after the first week, after the president had been inaugurationed, he had been contemplating lifting the sanctions off of russia and it ties back to michael flynn and whatever relations the kushners and michael flynn had with the russians. remember he was ceo, but also a trained sfb agent. >> are you surprised that at the bottom of every tear graph is t paragraph is the word on russia?

>> at this point, no.graph is paragraph is the word on russia? >> at this point, no. we're only 130 days in to the trump presidency. we,s meaning t meaning the imme certainly many people in america, hound onned hillary clinton over the boneheaded decision to have a private serber in her own hoeme. and president trump when he was a hit clubbed her about the fact that she was putting national security at risk. and now look where we are. this is not a republican issue. this is not a democratic issue. this is a sovereignty issue. this is an issue about our democracy. and the fact that we are not in full scale breaking news network and cable about these connections is -- >> we're coming right the back to you. i want to thank haley jacking son, mark, robert, you break news of the story you're about to post. please come back. we'll find you. we'll take a short break. but coming up, don't let his

soft spoken reputation fool you. a reporter take as close look at jared kushner's unlikely path to the white house and reveal just what you would expect from a trump whisperer. also nikki haley answers the one question that america's oldest allies couldn't get president trump to answer. maybe she should head to the next nato summit. and putting the band back together. president trump is reportedly eyeing some of his favorite old campaign aides to do hand to hand combat in this new political reality facing his young white house.

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i do think ultimately we'll

want mr. kushner to come before our committee. there ought to be a e a review his security clearance to find out whether he was truthful. if not, then there is no way he can maintain that kind of a clearance. >> first son-in-law jared kushner now himself the subject of scrutiny in the russia investigation. in part about over his reported attempts to establish secret lines of communication between the trump administration and the kremt are lyn cell can lynn. a move michael hayden blames on naivety. what manner of ignorance, chaos, suspicion, contempt would you have to have to think that doing this with the russian ambassador was a good or an appropriate idea? and that is the big question surrounding all of this. is it a grand scheme or just a case of inexperience? michael kranish is an expert in all things kushner. co-author of trump revealed. i read your piece and i think so much of what is known about

jared kushner is this idea that he speaks to the president in soft soothing tones so therefore is the gentle one and that is not the picture you paint. tell us. >> no, eels rk, he's 36, he ha look to him and he hasn't really spoken publicly since he's come to the white house. so he's sort of a mysterious figure sort of like forrest gump in all the photos but you don't hear him talk. so we decided to look back at his ten year business career. and you can see that he does not hold back. he's very trumpian in the way that he go after folks. he is a hardball political character. he survived in the rough and tumble real estate world and media world in new york. you don't see that so far because he hasn't spoken and we tried in the story to talk about his ownership a newspaper, the observer, and his efforts to retain control of the family real estate empire which was

really at risk after he at a very young age took it over. >> talk about -- he bumped up against what most people think are norms i guess in the newspaper business, but he wanted to use the paper that he purchased to exact revenge on his family's enemies. and he bumped up against some resistance. and the way you describe it, it almost made me laugh, he was surprised and con founded that you couldn't simply use a newspaper to seek revenge.found you couldn't simply use a newspaper to seek revenge. >> he had bought the most expensive office building in the country and it turned out to be not a good deal. and he owed more than the building was worth. and the reason he was having problem, some of the lenders were objecting to his request with to renegotiate the deal. so there came a point where he went to the editor at the observer newspaper and said i have negative information about this person, this person was a person who had raised objections in fact about refinancing his

office building. and so there were concerns in the paper like if you come in and say you have objections to this person at the front, you know that can cause a problem. they check canned it out and in the end they thought there was no story, that this tip brought in by mr. kushner did not check out. so i sbir viewinterviewed peoply said that it happened more than once and perhaps didn't understand this and they had to set him straight. but highlighted for them some of their concerns about him as an owner. >> donny deutsch has a question. >> you said his background in real es sttate. he is in a family business for ten years. and from where i look, it has not been very successful. sound something about saving the empire. whereas most people i talk to in

the reeal estate business say hs track word is a "c" at best. >> we asked at the "washington post" to provide us with the financial records that would prove whether they have been profitable. it's a private dougcompany. so we can't say because we don't have the records, but the company does still exist. he was there during the recession of 2007 and so forth. when i say survived, the company does still survive. he's divested himself from this particular office building project, though he still retains ownership of a lot of properties owned by that company. so i'm referring to that it did not go into bankruptcy, but a lot of people objected to things that happened along the way. so in the case of 666 fifth avenue, that building today is having a lot of problems. it is nowhere near fully leased. they are trying to sell it or make a deal with chinese, some people saying do they do financing with russians. so still questions about that

property and it was his baby for a long time so he still has a lot of responsibility for that. >> incredible reporting. michael, thank you so much for being with us. >> so michael makes an interesting point about jared right now, which is that he does not speak on camera. no one knows what his voice sounds like, in one in america has any idea about him other than what we have head. >> we have heard briefings. >> yes, but he has no pin publi persona. and for a long period of time it seemed that his desire to stay off television was intentional. so i ask you, as someone who is dealt with in your former life the public persona of people in the white house, what do you do now with that? because suddenly it seems like it is a real liability that no one has ever -- there is no sense ever the person. do you put them on camera or not?

>> i left my old life so far behind that now i'd say speak, jared, speak. listen, i think that the rob be co costa reporting was interesting. i think if he does speak, it will be in a defensive posture. r0r9ing sugge i i think that you are always more sympathetic when you are a human being. and i had heard that it was so farm difference to have his father sent to jail when it he was 25 that it hardened him that makes these kind of political skirmishes nothing. absolutely nothing to him. so i think he's really interesting. and i think sort of if he would be willing to tell will this

whole story about what it was like as a 25-year-old to see his dad sent to prison, i think he could become and interesting and potentially sympathetic figure. is i promise when we come back, after my interview of neighborinikki haley. we'll hear what she has to say about the president's po e's pan nato. think oasture on nato. sture on nato. ag this is the new new york. we are building new airports all across the state. new roads and bridges. new mass transit. new business friendly environment. new lower taxes. and new university partnerships to grow the businesses of tomorrow today. learn more at esd.ny.gov

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i think the relationship that the president has had wi merkel he would describe as fairly unbelievable. >> unbelievable may turn out to be the right turn if the comments merkel made turn out to be true. before ambassador nikki haley joined the u.n. security council today for the first time since president trump's foreign trip

wrapped up, i was lucky enough to spend a few minutes with her here in our new york studios and ask her about pmerkel's reactio. angela her kell saxiou angela merkel said we can't trust old friends like we used to. and since your job requires shoulder to shoulder diplomacy, how the president's reluctance to apffirm our commitment at th nato summit affects your job. >> i think that article v is something that we have always supported. >> do you support it today? >> yes, absolutely. >> you are willing to say that america's policy is to support article v? >> yes. there are a lot of things he didn't say and people are nitpicking at what people did say. if it was a change in policy, he would have said it. it's not a change of policy. you can always nit-pick at things. what i will tell you is that

germany will see in time that we have the backs of our allies. and all of our allies are starting to see that and that is our job is to show them that we have their back and when the time comes we need them to have our back, as well. >> do you think angela merkel is nitpicking donald trump? he is escalating a war on twitter with her criticizing german policies on trade and dues paying. >> there are obviously differences of opinion, but at the same time i think i know that we believe in nato and how we strongly we believe about those alleyieallies. >> most people thought it was stunning that he couldn't say what you just are you said. >> you know, i think that he had a successful. >> interpreter: trip hitting all of the major religions and communicating as much as he could. there are always going to be people who think he could have done more. but i think the first trip was very successful. >> would you be willing to separate out the first part from the nato stop?

even his closest advisers this morning said please chief off the stops in saudi arabia and jerusalem and italy and call help out for the suck cesses th were. >> it was going extremely well and i know because i was in the region. and the feedback was very good on how he handled that first leg. i think the second leg is people are watching to see what his actions are. i think that they don't always know what he will do when he's going to do it, but our job is to show them that even though he is a surprise president, even though he does make decisions on the fly and doesn't want everybody to know why he's making decisions at the time, we still have the backs of our friends. we always will. and we've shown that multiple times and we will continue to show that. >> can you understand and maybe help him understand why our friends needed to hear that in light of how reluctant he's been to criticize vladimir putin? >> i think that they know, you know, at the u.n. i can tell you i'm not having any of them question whether the -- >> because you're a harsh critic of vladimir putin. you sound more like john mccain

than donald trump. >> well, when russia does something wrong, of course i will call them out. but you have to understand i work for a man who has not stopped me calling them out. he has no problem with the fact that i hit russia. he has encouraged me to continue do my job the way with i'm doing it. so if i say it, i'm still a member of the team and that is the team saying it. >> so one of the things in the international news, they are paying very close attention into an investigation that i know you told my colleague krig melvin you supported and that is the special council investigation into russia. why do you support it, why do you think it's a good idea? >> because i think there a lot of here say. let's just are throw the facts out on the table and move on.sa. let's just are throw the facts out on the table and move on. as long as the rumor mills are going back and forth, it's not productive for anybody. the sooner we can move on, the better for the american about citizens. >> and yk is central jared kush.

he is a plug-in with state, with h.r. mcmaster, with the pentagon. do you talk with him regularly? >> i tracting could it be if he gets drawn into this investigation? >> i haven't talked to him since all of this came out, but jared is a very calm stable voice. there is not a lot that rattles him. and so i suspect that he will continue doing his work like he always has. he has said that he will totally komg apply with the investigation and give every ounce of information that they need and i think we can expect that. >> john mccain said that he found it troubling and he did not think there was anything normal about establishing a back channel with russia before the inauguration of a president. do you have any back channels currently? >> i don't, but i don't know enough about what happened with that, right? so a lot of that again is just rumor mill. and i don't know what is real are and what is not. >> but if you were going to set up a back channel, would you check with someone, would you share are the information with -- >> of course. >> so do you think it's weird

that he didn't? >> i think that we don't know the facts. and i don't want to comment on anything without knowing all of the facts. >> you were in turkey and jordan. and vast majority of the refugees are fleeing war-torn syria. i read your speech there and i know that you wanted to remind americans of just how much we do for these very vulnerable citizens. but what was your takeaway from sort of being there yourself? was it different from what you expected? >> well, i wanted to go and see it not as it was year one, but where do we stand going in to year seven. and what is the role of the u.s. and the u.n. and how will we continue to help the situation. and what i found were jordan and turkey and what a phenomenal job they are doing with the refugees. both have refugee camps set up, but they make sure that every child has education. every child has health care. all the adults and every member of the family, they are given a certain amount of money every month to buy whatever they need

to buy. when we went for the camp in jordan, they everhave a grocery store and the money is put on their beb ddebit cards and they an eye scan. there is not one ounce of fraud. >> does it sound like the kind of population in-and you had adequau adequately vetted? >> they are just trying to get everyone registered. but eye scan identifies someone, but it doesn't give you their network and what the situation is. and jordan and turkey are still very cautious about the wrong people coming into their areas. >> did anything that you saw on the trip change your views about this president's views on refugees? >> it actually solidified what i needed to see. because every single refugee that i spoke to, young, old, male, female, having been out of syria six years, out of syria

one year, they all said the same thing. we just want to go home. they are waiting to go back into syria. they want to go back be and rebuild syria, they want to take everything that they have done in these camps which is, is that right their own businesses and create their own schools, all those things. they want to take that back to syria. none of them said we want to come to the united states. >> on the development front, are you comfortable with the first drafts of the budget in terms of these priorities you're talking about, foreign aid and the refugee programs? >> i think that -- i was a governor, so i know what an executive budget is. it's the start of a conversation. and so when you start that conversation, what he did was he put an emphasis on the military. he put an emphasis on making sure that we're building up our economy. and so -- but he also had foreign aid in there and we've always been number one in humanitarian around the world. we won't stop doing that. >> do you need to go to him though -- i worked for president bush are and cnd condi rice wou to make the case for the power of these soft power tools.

do you have to go to the president and tell him what you saw and help advocate for more funds for these programs? >> i would go to the president and the team, tell them what i saw and tell them what i think needs to happen next. >> and is it more money? >> it is going to the development issues. and i will work with the secretary general in the u.n. so that we shift into a year seven mode instead of doing the same old things. but it is also what is u.s.' role and i think our role needs to be in supporting the host countries who are feeling the pressure of what has happened to them from the searare syrian refugees. jordan have taken in a million, turkey 3 billion. so we need to assist those host country. >> my last question is about the pair recent beingris accord. i wonder if you have views on whether we should stay in the paris accord, find a way to make it something that works for this president. >> i do have views and i have expressed those to the administration and we'll see where it comes out.

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i'm back with the panel. john be thnathan capehart who i cut off. let me start with your thoughts about how nikki haley responded. it's stunning to be having a fight with germany. >> but look, in that interview you did with ambassador haley, what we saw was the difference between someone with governing experience, someone who has been in charge everof a budget, accountable to people and the person she works for. and if only the president listened to people like her, his administration would be in much better shape, leave aside the russia stuff.

but the russia stuff has turned the white house and particularly the west wing into like this overactive blender for 130 days. and in the conversation that you had with my colleague michael at the "washington post," i would have sympathy for jared kushner and what happened with miss father and how his father went to jail and all that other stuff and the impact that had on him if jared kushner had respect for democratic norms and i mean small "d" democratic norms. or even an outward respect for democracy i would have sympathy for him. but all that missing, no, none at all. >> and that was the gist of john mccain's comments. i'll play them and get you to react. oh, we don't have it. so john mccain said over the weekend asked about the back channel and john mccain ended the statement by saying that russia is a graver threat than isis, as a strategic adversary,

russia is more dangerous. >> gary castroff said the same thing two years ago and it is playing out to be true. going back to even nikki haley's comments, it's kind of sad that she has to on say, well, my boss lets me say these things. what country do we live in -- >> thank god he does. >> -- high boss lmy boss lets m things. so are things bad with germany or is there incredible chemistry like the president i believe just told "time" two weeks ago? so i think the fact that russia is meddling in all of this and russia has a hand in all of this you can i don , i don't think but continue could have written a better text of how it went. so i think john mccain is right. and i think many americans are finally looking and seeing that to be true. >> do you think this is a sustainable position for nikki haley to be in, that she's thec

russia and donald trump is cool with that? >> i don't know whether it's sustainable or not. i'm not sure how much hfr of will i think she's been doing a great job and she has managed to in some ways it's an easy job because the things she's say rg what the bipartisan consensus is. and so they will get applause for that as long as she mansions to walk the tight rope where she doesn't seem to be repudiating her boss. how long she can walk that tight rope, i don't know. but the other question is whether donald trump cares very much about the u.n. and whether he himself cares, was he paying attention. as long as -- >> we know he watches tv and she has a lot of interviews. >> i understand that. but as you know there is a certain kind of like the u.n. with the big eye roll. and i think -- >> can she go on and continue to say negative things about russia, how insane that is and how that is the new norm? there is only one explanation, one, why donald trump behaved

the way he did last week basically it was as if putin was operating. because putin owns him. can we just say that? there is no other rational explanation. why are is kushner setting up back channels? how many more smoke bombs do we have to see? there is no other --explanation. give me of will-i want to not believe that. >> i think general hayden's comment and the reason i read it is because he offers up thenot believe that. >> i think general hayden's comment and the reason i read it is because he offers up the incompetence defense. i hear it from inside the whoit house, inside the cabinet. >> i think the incompetence defense would make more sense if we heard that kislyak approached jared and said here's how things can work and here's how things can improve. why don't we develop a back channel arrangement to where we can talk without everybody paying attention to us. it was the other way around.

and if reports are true, kislyak was sort of taken aback by jared's -- >> so jar with read if ted if t to be accepted, and no one has knocked it down, so we have to presume that there is some "there" there, how does jared continue in his current role? >> there are still so many of the facts here that are unknown and i think donny is expressing a very widely held view among a lot of people that there is obviously a lot of smoke. i think of all the things that jared kushner did that raise are alarms for people is the notion that this back channel would be set up and would operate within the secure environment of russian facilities. which gives the clear impression -- >> so you don't bring your phone. >> but he was trying to hide the conversations that he hopes to have from our own government. that i think is the thing that provokes the most suspicion. whether that is financial, whether that speaks to some kind

of long running puppeteer ownership issue or whether he is trying to gain financial advantage, i don't know the answer to that. but certainly that is the most suspicion about thing above all of it. >> all right. breaking news on the u.s. missile

we have been following breaking news out of the pentagon where they have been testing a u.s. anti-missile system. hans, the intend audience for

this i'm guessing was the short dictator in north korea. >> yes and no. they don't want to get into a tit for tat. when you read the president's budget, he reads these interceptors as being for north korea and iran. that's what everyone is saying as well. where the long-term threat is coming from. here's what happened off the coast of california in the pacific. 15 to 20 minutes out, this is where the interception took place. the ground based interceptor that met with the icbm they launched from the marshall islands. the first time they tested launching an actual icbm. the technology is very difficult and very complex. initial indications are a success. i'm going to read you my favorite part of the agency's press release.

they intercept a target and we have the kill vehicles that are attached to these missiles. >> one of the best parts is getting reports from you. thank you very much. a real reality sets in for people covering this white house and i talked to national security official this morning and they said we don't come back to the luxury of getting to do clean up for the last mistake. we have to dive into the next crisis. >> for reminds us of the crisis that looms and it worries us to the extend of focus that we are diverting elsewhere and not to the potential crisis which is north korea. we didn't talk about these tests in the past. obviously they are being reported for a reason. >> we talked about infrastructure or attacks or health care or anything else that it takes to run the country. >> north korea is the one issue that spans the administrations.

as national security adviser under president obama, susan rice when asked what is the number one issue we will have to worry about, without pause she said north korea. >> that's what barack obama told donald trump. >> did you see the reporting about how donald trump likes to receive intelligence? he loves graphic depictions of intel. i have not seen a lot of graphic depictions of intel. most have it briefed orally or president obama had it read to him. what do you make of how this president is evolving in a consumer of intel and information about national security? >> it seems to me like there has been no evolution whatsoever. there was a period of time where he was dismissive about the notion that he needed a daily briefing. it seems he is being briefed more frequently than he thought he would need which is for the best. i don't know what that intel

looks like. the illustrated version. i don't have a particular bias. >> we are laughing, but this is part of the cartoon. >> i don't want to be snide about it. if he is being briefed by people who know what's going on, i don't care whether it's through pant mimes or pikzary. there is a certain cavalierness about this process that i don't think serve him well. alternative methods, every president should have the right to get it how they want them. >> every intelligence team figures out how the principal likes to absorb the information. if the way president trump likes to absorb the information is through pictures and through graphic illustrations, fine. >> let's not do that. >> that is there. the pictures.

>> how he describes it. >> we would learn from the article that jared kushner receives briefing before the president does in the morning. >> what bothers you about that? >> it doesn't bother me, but it affirms how dependent he is with jared kushner and he is in trouble. >> my sources suggest it's not just the president, but he is sort of the first contact for world leaders and the whole trip, he was sort of the interface not just between the state and dod, but our allies. >> is that not inknow sanity. we report that with common -- this is a guy whose dad's real estate for 10 years. it's insanity. >> they got him elected. >> it's insanity. everybody's hair should be standing up. no qualifications. >> i agree with you. he is there and the president

wants him there and he is an adviser to the president. where i jump off the cliff is what she just talked about. he gets his own intelligence briefing. >> why does it bother you. >> i wanted to see if people got intelligence briefings and i gar know tee you the answer is no. >> each putin's family is not in the kremlin. to give you a sense of the separation of family and state, it is troublesome because just because he has the temperament, doesn't mean he has the chops for it. >> the greater problem is not this, but through all this time, they established a back channel and what didn't happen was the building of foreign apparatus. i am not as worried about how donald trump gets his briefings. there is no depth to the process. all of the experts and

undergirting that makes it happen, it's just a giant knoll set. that is a real problem. >> that will be the last word. mtp daily starts now. >> i'm trying to picture the putin family in the creme likre. that was a great visual. >> that's what i left you with. >> for it's tuesday, another long time trump confidant is part of the russia probe. tonight more new questions in the russia investigation as the white house fights charges of back channelling against jared kushner. >> your question assumes a lot of facts that are not substantiated. >> has russia already won the messaging war against the west? >> they are laughing at how easy