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good morning everybody. i'm thomas roberts at msnbc world headquarters in new york. 9:00 a.m. in the east, 6:00 in the west. we have new comments from the president today, who used his weekly address to mark the end of what the white house has dubbed infrastructure week. >> this week i laid out a bold and exciting new vision for the infrastructure in america that will make our country faster, safer and wealthier. frankly, it will make our country greater. with the talent, skill and drive of the american people, there is no doubt to the beautiful feature we can create together. all it takes is a bold and daring vision and the will to make it real. >> infrastructure week was overshadowed by the testimony of

the fired fbi chief james comey which the president was quick to knock down in a press briefing from the rose garden on friday. >> he did say under oath that you told him to let the flynn -- you said you hoped the flynn investigation -- he'd let go of that. >> i didn't say that. >> so he lied about that? >> i didn't say that. i will tell you i didn't say that. >> did he ask you to pledge -- >> there would be nothing wrong if i did say it according to everybody that i've read today. but i didn't say that. >> if robert mueller wanted to speak with you -- >> i'd be glad to tell him what i just told you. >> still at issue, the alleged tapes of the meeting with comey. critics say they will never be released to the public if they existality all. >> if there are tapes, you can believe they won't see the light of day, because now what the president is setting up is he-said, she-said. and it's a matter of trying to get to who is telling the truth. i believe on this one comey is

telling the truth and the president is absolutely lying. >> so here we have another voice adding to hindsight being 20/20 with former vice president joe biden telling a crowd at a pry vent event last night that he knew hillary clinton would lose a month before she did. for some on capitol hill clinton's loss is something to give thanks for. here is kelly ann koanne conway. >> i click my heels three times and say she is not the president, she is not the president, she is not the president, and it helps. >> so we have no public events planned today for the president. he's at his private homes on the grounds of his bed minister, new jersey golf course. kelly o'donnell is nearby in branchburg. kelly, what is the president doing? meanwhile, the white house is always on the road when the president is.

how are they working to move past what happened with comey. >> reporter: thomas, good to be with you again. of course the advisers are calling this a working weekend. and that is true in part because we know the president will host a fund-raiser for a new jersey republican congressman tomorrow. he was instrumental in bringing the house side together to ultimately pass at least that first step of health care reform. we know that's there. we know the president has a number of his senior advisers with him. so he has access to make calls or hold meetings, that kind of thing, but nothing public today. the white house is really trying to take two different approaches. they recognize there is almost insatiable interest in the russia investigation, not only from the general public, but congress, certainly from journalists. it is a captivating and compelling set of issues that imperils the white house in some degree. and at the same time, they're trying to focus on the agenda,

trying to turn toward what voters are interested in. one of the things they laid out is the infrastructure week as they branted it, with a number of different policies where they're looking to do things with regulation, funding, public and private partnerships to address issues people see all across the country with roads that are decayed, bridges that are not safe. different things that affect people's daily lives, but also business and accessibility. so the president is trying to focus on that. here is what he had to say about infrastructure when he was in the rose garden. >> i heard the pleas from the voters who wanted to know why we could rebuild foreign country, my big thing, we build in foreign countries. we spend trillions and trillions of dollars outside of her nation, but we can't build a road, a highway, a tunnel, a bridge in our own nation. and we watch everything falling into disrepair.

>> reporter: i had a chance at the white house to talk to a handful of the governors who were visiting to meet with the president, and i asked about how much this russia issue, the investigations, the comey testimony, all of those sorts of things was distracting or interfering with the president. now, there this are republican governors there to meet about infrastructure. they said the president and his team were focused on the substance of what they were doing, so they wouldn't entertain the notion of it being a distraction. clearly the white house is pushing all the comment about the russia investigation to the president's outside lawyer, marc kasowitz and the team he's trying to assemble apart from the president's own words and the president's twitter feed, which tells us a lot about what's on his mind. it's clearly a problem. it is a drain on the energy for the white house, but they're trying to keep moving forward to talk about issues that they think voters care about. we'll have to see how the public responds to this.

the president talking about vindication when it comes to the fact that he was not personally being investigated according to james comey in his testimony. the president sort of swatting away the things that are much more vulnerable for him, about whether he tried to exert any influence over comey. >> it was infrastructure week. i don't know if we were talking about our infrastructure of roads and bridge, as much as legal infrastructure of building cases. kelly, great to see you in branchburg, new jersey. >> i want to bring in republican congressman francis rooney of florida. i believe you were at the white house this week for dinner. you were one of a select few of republican members there that included tom cotton and marco rubio. >> that's right, thomas. thanks for having me on. >> always a pleasure to have you on. we know tom cotton and marco rubio were asking questions of former fbi director comey. did the president give any advice to them at that dinner on what to ask? >> that dinner was focused on

foreign policy and some of the areas where we have real challenges facing the united states after past eight years of foreign policy. we talked about the middle east. we talked about north korea. we talked about the reorientation of the balance of power in the middle east to our sunni allies. we talked about the problem of islamic migration in europe. >> did anything come up about the collection of intelligence agencies believing that russia interfered with our election and the fact that the two senators rubio and cotton would have an opportunity to speak to comey about that in that public session thursday? >> no. like i said, this was a foreign policy session. we had pretty thorough and detailed discussion of a lot of the nuances of what's happening in the middle east. i have to say the president was in command. he knows a lot. >> russia being a part of our foreign policy, but no russia talk? >> not that i recall. if it did, i was talking to somebody else around the table.

i don't recall it. >> sir, based on what we saw in the comey testimony of thursday and the president's rebuttal from the rose garden yesterday and how you know the president and also the fbi director to act, who seems more credible to you at this point about what they're saying? >> well, you know, i think i would call this the hope and feelings dialogues. comey talked about what the president allegedly said he hoped he would do and talked a lot about how he felt about what the president might, in fact, due, but not a lot of meat there. it's like the old wendy's ad, where's the beef? we know he said the president wasn't under investigation. now we know he took the unprecedented step of leaking some internal notes. >> speaker ryan would give a different justification of what the president might have found himself in in terms of the fact that he is a fresh face in d.c. and how he might have gotten caught up in this. take a listen. >> the president's new at this. he's new to government.

so he probably wasn't steeped in the long-running protocols that establish the relationships between doj, fbi and white houses. he's just new to this. >> congressman, you called the comey stuff the hope and feelings -- >> the hope and feelings dialogue. >> so speaker ryan would say that president trump is basically the young and the restless, he's new to d.c. and he's not sure exactly what he's doing so far. is that enough justification to understand how the three branches of government operate and do so in coordination, but also in a way to keep oversight of one another? >> well, i can kind of sympathize with that comment being an outsider myself and a lifelong business person. some things you do in business would be misconstrued perhaps in this public arena where no good deed goes unpunished. but i still haven't seen any beef here. >> when it comes to james comey

referring to the president as a liar, do you think that is accurate? do you think president trump has ever lied to the american people? >> i haven't seen evidence of a lie yet. i'm really surprised that the fbi director would use that kind of language, especially after some of the things he's done. >> when it comes to tapes and the president saying comey better hope there aren't tapes. we know now that the hill is very interested in whether that evidence does exist. do you believe that it does? >> i have no idea, but i think it's very interesting that both the president and comey have said i hope there's tapes. one of them must know if there's tapes. >> when it comes to the comey reaction, and certainly, congressman, you know there was a lot of reaction to this. for some people it fits their narrative of either whether it vindicates the president or it makes people more suspicious, and there's still a longer process to go here. but in keeping the reaction of this, we have bill k rnchristol

tweeted, i happen to have seen various gop senators this afternoon and they're not just concerned, they're terrified. i know bill kristol, they're not attributed certain elected leaders to the tweet. is that the sense on the hill, that folks are terrified about this? >> i haven't felt that way in the republican conference. maybe it's my own naivete that i don't understand some of the nuances going on behind the scenes. i've been pretty focused on my job this week. what i've read is what i said, that i don't see a lot of beef there. >> also, when it comes to the beef then, do you want to see the president go under oath and testify? he said he's 100% willing to do that? >> that's a matter for the president. we haven't seen enough facts that make this where anyone would be requiring him to do it. >> but he feels 100% committed

to doing it. if he did it, you'd support him going under oath and seeing what happens, right? >> i said before, i think this is kind of a media dust storm, and we need to get all the cards on the table and get it behind us so we can move on to do the important things that need to be done. it's too bad this is overshadows this is an infrastructure permitting session. >> is it fair to call it a media dust storm? we're trying to do our jobs as you're trying to do your job for the american people, and there's a problem. wouldn't you admit there's a problem if russia and our intelligence agencies all say yes, they did try to interfere with our election, and comey testified under oath given his knowledge that they'll be back in 2020. we have a special prosecutor that's now been tied on to the actions of this administration for firing james comey because he admitted basically in that lester holt interview, yeah, it was to get rid of the russia

thing. it blows my mind to think that, the media, we're at fault for this. we're not at fault for the president's tweets, anything he's dunn on the bus with a hot mike or anything he said about mexicans or muslims. we're not at fault for that. i don't think that's fair. >> i'm not implying the media is at fault. there's nobody more intensity dedicated to the first amendment than me. i think we need to have all sides out there and we need to have a robust and open discussion about what all these comments mean. >> hopefully then the president will go under oath. and if those tapes exist, hopefully they will also help to buoy his case. it seems like james comey right now has the upper hand with those memos and evidence of having written all of that down. i know james comey also revealed that he passed on that unclassified material to a friend of his to get out to the press, to rebut certain things that were being said about his

dismissal. do you agree with the way that he was able to do that? do you think he should have done it a different way? >> you make the point that it's unclassified. i also think it's unprecedented to leak those kind of notes in a way that he felt was, as he said, destined to bring on the odds of the special investigator. it's like he's trying to predetermine whether a special investigator will be picked or not. i'm not sure that's his job. >> is it unprecedented to fire the fbi director and to meet an contact the fbi director nine times in just a matter of months? >> this is a really unprecedented fbi director. when i go back to the campaign and what he did about the hillary clinton thing and the loretta lynch business and all that, not going after her, i'm surprised trump didn't fire him the afternoon of january 20th. >> democrats fall into this trap now, too, with the potential discussion of how james comey said it made him feel queasy about not being able to call it an investigation, being ordered

to call it a matter. but isn't that the job of the fbi director? he's not looking to make friends with the left or the right. he's looking to do his job. >> i think there's a bit of an asymmetry between the intensity that everyone is speaking about what the president may or may not have said or done with comey and what comey deliberately did not do to loretta lynch. >> congressman francis rooney of florida, good to have you on. >> thanks for having me on. >> we have the odds of prsz testifying in the russia investigation. if he doesn't want to, could the special counsel, bob mueller, force him to talk? we'll break that down and have some answers next. ing to go ahed and invade your personal space to run some things by you. it's going to look like i'm listening but i'm actually just paying attention to nugget. cool. i'll pretend you're answering the questions i have. i'll scroll through my feed and avoid making eye contact. i'm just going to keep hovering. wouldn't it be great if everyone said what they meant? hovering away. boo boo boo [making noise at nugget] the citi® double cash card does.

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when will you tell us --

>> over a fairly short period of time. >> are there tapes, sir? >> you're going to be very disappointed when you hear the answer. don't worry. >> congressional investigators are giving the president a deadline of june 23rd to hand over any recordings of his conversations with james comey if they do exist. the house intel committee also demanding comey turn over his memos. i want to bring in msnbc contributor and new york times national reporter yamiche al sin store and reporter from the hill, mike -- some people say it's i' it's improv. yamiche, why the suspense? >> he's someone who lives off suspense and wants to have people thinking about him, he wants to be the person who has the upper hand. in this way he's not answering this question by in some ways

wanting to over shadow james comey's explosive testimony this week where he essentially said the president was a liar and said he was taking these notes unlike the other meetings he's had with presidents obama and president bush. in this case he really i think -- really hit hard as trump's credibility. this is really at the end of the day a credibility war at this point. you have james comey who is someone who -- both sides of the aisle are frustrated with, seen as someone who is very credible. then you have donald trump who has been called out by my newspaper and now a former director of the fbi as being somewhat of a liar. i think that's why the suspense is happening, because trump is trying to figure out what his next move is. in that regard he's trying to think about that. i should also say this is the character of the president. he's said to reporters at my paper before when he was trying to dispute some of the reporting we've done, that he had tapes of the conversations and he had been misquoted, and he never produced the tapes. that's not the first time donald

trump has said he had tapes and not produced them. >> i know from source, yes, it was a practice that he used at the trump organization to record certain things, but telling us i've got investigators going to hawaii to find the birth certificate. a secret plan to defeat isis. stay tuned. i'll let you know. mike, there's a deadline now, june 23rd. how does he get out of it if they don't exist? >> he can just say i'm not going to comply with whatever the house tells me to do. they can try to subpoena the white house but the white house can push back and say, no thanks, not this time, we're focused on other things. i suspect that's what's going to happen. the significance of the comey testimony is not just that we learn some kind of -- in fascinating new details about the one-on-one conversation in the white house. this thing has escalated on a very public stage, the most powerful guy in the world and james comey who is coming in

being a thorn in his side. everybody wants a piece of this action now. of course, house intelligence has been working on this investigation for a while. now you have senate judiciary just yesterday said, wait a minute, we might want to subpoena james comey. what you get, you're getting witness envy, everybody wants to be on this public stage. they know it's the biggest game in town, might be the biggest story of the year, the decade or the century. nobody just yet what's going to happen. you'll see congress more involved. whatever trump wants to do, however he wants to dictate the conversation, he's going to have a very tough time because congress is going to be front and center with all these letters and subpoenas and keep it in the headlines. >> if this is seen as the hottest action in town, yamiche, the president saying he's committed to testifying 100% means he wants a piece of the action. some people saying there might be a credibility issue here. does it really hatter? is the president trying to rebut

what james comey is saying or just get kind of a tune-in factor of people paying attention to how he's trying to outplay him? >> i think there's a little bit of both. this president is someone who absolutely is a showman. he's someone who wants to be the person who has the final word on a lot of issues. he's also someone who likes talking to the media and likes being able to explain himself and likes being able to spin his narrative and tell his side of the story. i think there's that going on. he really wants to counter in the same way that james comey was able to give that big hearing, the one that got him put -- as someone who puts in d.c., really had the city standing still to watch this testimony in a way that really donald trump hasn't been able to do. even with the inauguration, james comey's testimony felt even bigger than that in some way, because there was so much people wanted to know i think that's something that's part of this issue, is that donald trump does not like when more people -- when someone is more famous than him.

in this regard, james comey absolutely was more famous to him. of course, it was supposed to be infrastructure week. the president was supposed to have the infrastructure plan and everyone was supposed to be focused on that. who knew that? no one. the president is trying to pivot and congress and the country as a whole is saying we're not ready to pivot. >> comey's infrastructure week trying to prove obstruction of justice, building a case. we've got bob mueller in this, mike. is the president under any guise to be compelled to talk by robert mueller? >> not necessarily. for all the focus we've had on comey, all the focus on house intel and senate judiciary and all these different public forums, you're absolutely right that bob mueller is the wildcard. he's the force that's going to drive what we see into the future. we don't know how long that's going to take, what steps he's

going to take. for all of comey's testimony, bob mueller already has the memos themselves. >> is there any guess at a timeline on this? >> i have no guess at all. when is the last time you saw bob mueller make a public statement? he just hasn't done anything. we expect that to be the case moving forward. don't expect it to happen very fast, that's for sure. >> thing about this, too, no one wants to jump to conclusions about the fact he's been appointed as special prosecutor. he's got to do the job, let the facts leaped where they may. it may lead to a place where bob mueller doesn't do anything, and i think everybody has to understand that as well, just the fact that he has been assigned and tasked to this doesn't mean that something of substance may arise. yamiche and mike, i'll ask both of you that. do you agree with that? >> i definitely agree with that. i think what's very remarkable is what we learned on thursday, james comey wanted his memo to

get out because he wanted a special prosecutor to be assigned which means this investigation is following the way that james comey wanted it to play out. i think that's very important. the president now knows that the person he fired acted with the media to make sure that this investigation was going to continue in a way that was independent and in a way that was going to continue to press forward. if donald trump fired james comey with the idea that michael flynn was going to get a pass at this russia thing as he told lester holt which is going to go away, that's completely not the case. donald trump in some ways is coming to the realization that he might have made more pressure on himself and created more spres sure on himself by firing james comey. >> does that not work as a net negative in the credibility of this whole investigation, that comey chessed it out in his head, chess matched it out that if he got fired, it would trigger the special prosecutor and that makes his credibility look somewhat suspect.

>> no, i don't think so. he's just a private citizen at this point, goes before the senate intel committee and testifying not even as a federal employee anymore. he's just a private citizen. >> but he was making cya files basically, that if he did get canned, here is what i've got and i've got this con tame rain yously that i'm making these memos because he thought about th that. >> certainly he has come under attack for the past year and a half, on the campaign trail both sides were angry at him for different reasons over the course of that campaign. now comes robert mueller. i haven't heard a negative word about mueller since he was assigned or in the decade before that. he has no credibility problems whatsoever on either side of the aisle. comey can do and say what he wants -- >> also reports that nbc news was able to verify that he was being considered as one of the topics before ray was announced to take over to are the fbi. >> mike, yamiche, thank you to

both of you. i'll see you again soon. we've got the president seizing there could be these recordings of the private discussions with comey. i'm going to ask a republican member about those recordings and how much they can help the president after this. i love kiwis. i've always had that issue with the seeds getting under my denture. super poligrip free. it creates a seal of the dentures in my mouth. just a few dabs is clinically proven to seal out more food particles. try super poligrip free. ♪

welcome back. i'm thomas roberts at msnbc world headquarters in new york. just 32 minutes past the hour. after declaring vindication from comey's senate testimony, president trump accused the former fbi director of lying under oath and at a bilateral press briefing with the romanian president, the president also said he was willing to testify under oath and strongly disputed comey's comments. >> he did say under oath that you told him to let the flynn -- you said you hoped the flynn investigation, he could let go of that. >> i didn't say that. >> so he lied about that? >> i didn't say that. i will tell you i didn't say that. >> did he ask you to pledge

loyalty -- >> there would be nothing wrong if i did say it according to everybody read today. but i didn't say that. >> joining me now is john fitzgibbons, a former federal prosecutor. john, what do you make of what the president said there? i didn't say it, but if i did, it wouldn't matter. >> this, first of all, is a classic one-on-one situation. i think it does matter. it matters as to what the president suggested or instructed to the chief law enforcement officer of the united states. that's very troubling. >> when we think about you boiling it down to a he-said, he-said, weave got to put the faith in the american judicial system, the investigations taking place and everybody is being an honest broker in playing a part in this. we've got harvard law scholar alan dershowitz making this argument that this could lay the whole scandal to rest. take a listen. >> i think comey made a very

significant statement today. he said he believed the constitution authorized the president to tell the director of the fbi who to investigate, who not to investigate, who to prosecute, who not to prosecute. he's 100% right about that constitutional analysis. i've been making this point now for weeks. therefore, if that's right, it really doesn't matter whether it was a quest, a hope. the president has the authority to tell the director of the fbi to stop an investigation. john, do you agree with that? and how does that match up with what the country lived through in watergate if we're trying to come pear apples to apples. >> i vigorously disagree with the good professor. it would make no sense. for example, let's assume the president's four best friends are being serrated for bank fraud, money laundering or all sorts of things. it's senseless to think that he could pick up the phone and call the head of the fbi and tell the director, stop it. where would it ever end?

that's just senless. he could never investigate any major associate or aide to the president if that theory was correct, which it isn't. >> all right. i don't want to overlook the actual words that are in dispute here, so i want to play for everybody how the former fbi director inscribed his encounter with the president to senator james reesh. take a listen. >> thank you for that. he didn't direct you to let it go? >> not in his words, no. >> he did not order it to let it go? >> again, those words are not an order. i took it as a direction. it's the president of the united states with me alone saying i hope this, i took it as this is what he wants me to do. i didn't obey that, but that's the way i took it. >> so what do you make of that, the fact that here we have a sitting president elected by the voters, and here he is, meeting one of moult times with the faib

director about what's going on with flynn. should that be a nod that, yeah, i hope this can go away and i hope you can let it go. >> it's not any different than the boss or ceo of a company calling you in and saying, gee, employee, i would like a lot of loyalty from you. by the way, my brother-in-law works in your unit and i hear he's about ready to be fired by you. i really wish you would hold off firing my brother-in-law. that's how messages like this are conveyed. there's no doubt, it would seem to me, that what the president was trying to suggest here is to slowdown or halt the faib investigation of general flynn. >> so do you think this was obstruction of justice? do you think there is a ground case built for that path? >> well, it's certainly worth investigating. as we often say in the defense business i'm in, we don't really

know yet what the prosecutors have, what they have. they could be very advanced and very far along in an investigation or in the early stages. for example, do tapes exist? they're the great equalizer in a one-on-one situation. or another example, one of the smartest guys around was president clinton. i think everybody agreed with that. he went into where he testified under oath and he got trapped by not knowing that the special prosecutor had the blue dress of monica lewinsky and had interviewed her. so there's a lot of things that can go on behind the scenes that people don't know. >> specifically to that point, if you were defending donald trump, that personal attorney, would you recommend to your client yes or no, go under oath? >> absolutely no.

rule number one, two and three of defense lawyers across the land is that your client does not testify under oath. there's too many pilt falls and dangers. >> that's one, two and three. shut your mouth, shut your mouth, shut your mouth. >> absolutely. >> john fitzgibbons, thanks for coming on. >> thank you. >> what happens to the z president if the russia probe does drag on for two years? we'll talk about that straight ahead. it's time for the "your business" entrepreneur of the week. niella ellis brown has a bottled tea business. local customers love her product but she wants to go national. she asked for your business makeover and now she's about to break through with a disruptive strategy and big-time distribution. for more, watch "your business" weekends at 7:30 on msnbc. i was out here smoking instead of being there for my son's winning shot.

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what james comey didn't say at thursday's hearing and why he's speaking between the lines, coming up next hour on "am joy," the first muslim to be elected to congress and current deputy chair of the dnc keith ellison reacting to the nationwide rallies against muslims today.

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so fbi director james comey

there should be no fuzz on the fact that russians interfered in the 2016 election, even going further to say they'll be back in 20/220. he also told martin heimrich that the conversations with president trump were never about that. >> did the president in any of those interactions that you shared with us today ask you what you should be doing or what our government should be doing or the intelligence community to protect america against russian interference in our election sis snem. >> i don't recall a conversation like that. >> joining me now, former fbi special agent clint watts who also testified to the senate intel committee about the russia investigation. clint, what do you make of comey's version there, and is that to the president's credit or discredit because of knowing that there was a problem with sessions having to recuse himself, there was an open investigation of flynn? could he even ask those

questions without looking suspicious? >> the president could have at least said, hey, i want to make sure our elections are not being messed with by russia. it's odd he's never said that. i believe a romanian journalist yesterday asked the president what about what's going on in eastern europe? this is continuing right now. the german election is a big target for the russians. why wouldn't the u.s. want to get into a more proactive posture on this? this is even going to happen in the 2018. >> the midterms coming up. >> if you're a senator or congressman speaking out against russia, whether republican or democrat, you're going to have a russian to essentially counter you. >> when we think about things that comey did say, clint, there were a number of times where comey declined to comment. here are a few examples of questions he wouldn't answer. >> when you read the dossier, what was your reaction given that it was 100% directed at the

president-elect. >> not a question i can answer in an open setting. >> is it not true that mr. anyone was and is a central figure in this entire investigation of the relationship between the trump campaign and the russians? >> i can't answer that in an open setting, sir. >> do you believe donald trump colluded with russia? >> that's a question i don't think i should answer in an open setting. >> was he speaking between the lines? >> i think he was actually being quite careful and just trying to make sure he wasn't interfering in investigations. but what's key to me through all this, i think the most damning things are the implications for the department of justice. what comey was saying, wasn't sure i could handle this investigation. i didn't know if sessions was going to be recused. even when i reported to the doj, i never heard back from them. that's a consistent pattern. what's fascinating about the russia situation is donald trump may very well be correct, he

didn't collude with them. but what you see with all those questions is there are key figures close to the president that appear to be under investigation. >> the president said yesterday from the rose garden, no collusion, no obstruction, he's a leaker about james comey. we'll see if that ever happens. >> look at that. there it is in my tease. no collusion, no obstruction, he's a leaker. that's how the president sums up the testimony of james comey. how close would the president really find himself from being questioned about alleged connections the russia? we all know he had business dealings there. i went to russia with them him in 2013 for miss universe. i interviewed him there. he said he had a relationship with putin. will someone listen to me? i don't know. we'll see you after the break. i've found a permanent escape from monotony. together, we are perfectly balanced. our senses awake. our hearts racing as one.

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this, he's new to government. he probably wasn't steeped in the long-running protocols that

establish relationship between dodge /* dchlt ochlt jchlt, fbi and white houses. he's just new to this prf he's new. a freshman. . >> it's an explanation. there has to become a point where president trump is figuring out how things work in washington. he's surrounded by people who have that experience and can advise him. homefully he's taking cues from him. >> do you think this defense would fly if it was president hillary clinton? she's been around the white house eight years. >> she or obama would already

have been impeached by this. it's kind of a preposterous dummy defense ryan is launching, he didn't know enough, a dummy, newbie. >> more like ignorance is bliss. >> ignorance is not an excuse inch a criminal case. and the most important piece comey pointed to is that the president shooed the other people out of the room, jeff sessions, jared kushner, because he knew he was about to do something wrong. so he just did it one-on-one with comey. the next argument they make, he said i hope, that's not obstruction of justice. prosecutors will tell you i hope is plenty good enough. you don't have to have explicit obstructions for there to be obstruction of justice. what's striking how many former prosecutors say --

>> the thing that would help is the exact language. trump alluded through a tweet that these tapes could exist so listen to the president yesterday being asked about that. >> do tapes exist of your conversations with him? >> well, i'll tell you about that sometime maybe in the near future. >> when will you tell us about that. >> in a fairly short period of time. >> there are tapes, sir? >> you're going to be very disappointed when you hear the answer. don't worry. >> you'll be very disappointed. patrice, what do you make of that? >> i think he's referring to what we'll hear if there are tapes in response to the questions. just to get to a point being made about this being criminal, i don't think it's been reached this is a criminal investigation. there has to be a level of evidence presented. >> who do you think bob mueller is doing, patrice. >> putting together evidence, phone records to substantiate

that. >> that's not a civil matter. that's more a criminal matter. >> i don't think we've come to the point where there are actual -- the president has been charged with anything. the words we use are important. hear criminal, oh, you're already trying to create an image in the mind of the people listening to that. right now -- i think, and you make a great point, because americans have to be ready for the fact there's no conclusion he here. bob mueller is doing his job. there may be nothing. this isn't a civil case, a multi-billion dollar lawsuit against donald trump, this is criminal, so that's a fact. that's what bob mueller is doing. now, whether he finds anything, that's a different story. if there is no collusion, and there is no obstruction, and comey, as president trump says, is a leaker, jonathan, do you

think you're prepared for the reality that bob mueller will say i don't have enough. >> highly unlikely based on what we've heard. you've got to put this in two categories. on the collusion and on the potential financial improprieti improprieties, that he's collecting evidence now. we don't know where a lot of that is going to go. there's a lot of smoke, no fire. obstruction of justice, there you have a constitutional disagreement. people who believe in a conventional approach to obstruction of justice look at it as almost open and shut based on comey's testimony. the president fired comey when he realized that he was looking into michael flynn. he instructed him to protect michael flynn. that is obstruction of justice. it's very likely that bob mueller is going to include the same thing. he and james comey have similar

experience, friends and colleagues. whether that is accepted by the president, who says he has the power to do this, as we heard yesterday, is a totally different matter. >> we shall see. patrice, thank you so much. jonathan, thank you. see you back at noontime. coming up next "am joy." don't go anywhere. i was out here smoking instead of being there for my son's winning shot. that was it for me. that's why i'm quitting with nicorette. only nicorette mini has a patented fast dissolving formula. it starts to relieve sudden cravings fast. every great why needs a great how.

he did say under oath you told him to -- you said you hoped the flynn investigation -- >> i didn't say that. >> he lied about that. >> i didn't say that. i will tell you i didn't say that. >> did he ask you -- >> there would be nothing wrong if i did say it according to everybody and what i've read today. >> did he pledge an oath of loyalty? >> no, he did not. >> he said those things under oath. would you be willing to speak under oath to give your