facebook. e-mail me, ari@msnbc.com. very important, though, joy reid is next. stay tuned for that and have a great night. the president's new at this. he's new to government. and so he probably wasn't steeped in the long-running protocols that established the relationships between doj, fbi and white houses. he's just new to this. >> at first, house speaker paul ryan seemed to be all by his lonesome this week in minimizing trump's alleged meddling in the russia investigation and his demands for a loyalty pledge from the director of the fbi. ryan played up the president's political naivety and lack of experience. that's right. the top republican said in trump's defense that the 70-year-old man who dragged that he, alone, could fix washington, just doesn't know how to be

president. but then the chariot of republican defenders clippity cloped their way to trump's defense alongside ryan. here's what some of them had to say. >> he has not been in the political arena before. he hasn't done diplomacy. he hasn't done dealing with the justice department. so he does things differently. >> i think it boils down to this. is this the actions of someone who is putting together a plan to impede an investigation or a nonpolitician, unconventional figure, who simply operates in ways that are different from previous presidents? >> the president was vindicated. it's understandable to me why the president would be a little l bit put out with comey and say to comey, good grief, if you're telling me i'm not under investigation, why don't you tell the american people because this cloud of an investigation is really damaging. i think that's sort of an honest appraisal and an honest reaction by the president. >> we can only imagine how they'll respond after attorney

general sessions testifies before the senate intelligence committee on tuesday. joining me now, karine john-pierre, moveon.org. katen dawson. jennifer ruben. and jonathan capehart of the "washington post." malcolmn nance. we'll start with you, karine, why you so mean to the president? he's just a little guy. he doesn't understand presidenting. it's hard. why are you guys so mean when he doesn't know yet how to be president? >> because there's so much winning, joy. so much winning, joy. happening. it's just so unbelievable. i mean, look, this is not your grandfather's republican party anymore. it's really a shell of itself. you have republicans sitting on the bow of the "titanic" playing the violin. instead of being the co-equal branch of government, you know, that's what they're allowing donald trump to do -- to just

be -- they're being enablers and donald trump is just his bad behavior continues to push forward. and it's just -- they're just once again picking party over country. >> i mean, is infant lizing the president really a sound defense? >> you know, joy, i have to go back to the election and what it said about america, the obama administration. people were looking for something different. now, we found trump and i done know if that's the difference. we're going to find thought out in 2018 with the midterms especially the u.s. senate races. so, i hear the other people saying he hadn't been in office. ronald reagan was governor of california. george bush governor of texas. they governed big places. that's no excuse he has not been a politician. i think my discourse here is i'm sad that he didn't -- hasn't had a chance to enact any of the

policies he talked about when he was in the republican primary so far. all of this has gotten in the way. >> the reality is, he ran saying those things were a virtue, the fact he wasn't like jeb bush, you know, low energy jeb, which is the governor, we don't want that. there were senators running against him, governors of ohio, florida, big states. he said it was a virtue he didn't know anything about washington, that's why you should elect him because you can clean it up. i have to stay with you for one more second. bob inglas, former republican congressman, voted to impeach bill clinton, nobody said he's a newbie to washington when they said travel-gate were impeachable and everything else, h said, speaker ryan, you know this sort of idea -- speaker ryan tried to say they would not impeach a democrat had the democrat done the same things. he said speaker ryan, you know this isn't true, you know you'd be inquiring into impeachment if this were a democrat. we have you on the show because you're honest. wouldn't republicans be impeaching hillary clinton if she'd done half of this? >> yeah, we'd certainly probably

be trying. i have to go back in history. only andrew johnson and bill clinton had been impeached and neither one met the threshold to be removed from office. i get the semantics of it, how it damages your party wrohen yo have proceed use. th certainly we'd be trying i inin impeach her. democrats are trying to get to the level of impeachment for donald trump. all of this is premature. i see it as complete political theater and getting in the way of getting anything done in washington. that's where the threshold of 20 18 is going to show up. we're going to find out if the american public has had enough of the gridlock and everything just being stuck where it is. >> well, there was gridlock for eight years. pretty much helped donald trump. let's look at some bicameral defenses of donald trump. jennifer ruben, i want to get your take on it. let's start with lindsey graham who gets credit in the media as being a trump critic but he's been a staunch defender and ruling out the idea there was

any obstruction of justice on trump's part. take a listen, on cbs. >> unless mueller is complete idiot, which he is no, he's concluded there's no obstruction of justice case because if he concluded otherwise, comey wouldn't be testifying. you wouldn't let your chief and only witness go through this process if you really believed you had a case to prosecute and mr. mueller is a good prosecutor. >> now let's listen to jim jordan, congressman from ohio, on fox news on friday essentially also exonerating donald trump. >> i think what happened the last 24, 48 hours cleared lot of things up and confirmed what president trump's been saying all along, he wasn't under investigation. i think when this, you know, after what we saw, it looks good for the president, frankly, not so good for former fbi director, james comey. >> jennifer ruben, it's good enough for them. >> this is why i have mentally and emotionally left the republican party. it's shameful. these people continue to put party above country. they saw with their own eyes what's going on.

lindsey graham, shame on you. you're a prosecutor, yourself, you saw jim comey come up there. he didn't talk about areas where he thought he would be trouncing on bob mueller's territory. and he gave honest testimony. so these guys who try to m minimi minimize, make excuses, it's shameful and they have proven to bt americ the american people they are unfit to leave. shame on paul ryan who insists that innocence and duplicity is some kind of excuse. if he hasn't figured out in six months how to be president of the yoois, heunited states he's govern and should step down. >> malcolm, there are other republicans trying to say the press of this, ferporget the obstruction of justice, the underlying defense. here's tom cotton who's probably the staunchest defender of donald trump in the united states senate questioning jim comey on thursday in a way to try to clear donald trump. take a look. >> on february 14th, "the new

york times" published a story, the headline of which was "trump campaign aides have repeated contacts with russian intelligence." you were asked earlier if that was an inaccurate story and you said, "would it be fair to characterize that story as almost entirely wrong"? >> yes. >> malcolm nance, you have been writing about this and talking on this show since last summer, early last summer. just definitively, is it not true that the trump campaign definitively had contacts with the russians? >> well, we know from the trump campaign's own admission that people on their staff had numerous contacts with moscow. and not only that, lied and covered it up while applying for their security clearance processes. let me tell you something, i've heard a lot of people say, this is proof conclusively, nothing has been proven at all. we are at the beginning of a very, very long counterespionage investigation on one hand. that doesn't even include all

the other pathways that the special counsel could go and investigation for money laundering. they just brought in the head of the fbi's and treasury's money laundering expertise team. we could go into a hundred different places over the next year and at the same time still prove or disprove that there was contact with moscow. but all of these connections didn't appear in a vacuum. they came from somewhere. and the trump administration is going to have to answer for them. >> yeah. there was a piece -- a conservative writer from the hoover institution, earlier this morning, i was tweeting out that said you may end up proving infiltration, not collusion, but that still remains a scandal, right? >> what? what? infiltration is my worst nightmare. i've been saying this since last july. it could be possible that someone on their team, i've got a candidate, but i'm not going to say here, could have actually been a turned agent for russian intelligence and all of them could be people who have -- who

were unwitting assets, who were doing moscow's bidding in hopes they were going to have some financial compensation. but they thought it was all legitimate. >> yeah. >> this could be much worse than where we are now. >> jonathan, that means to the original point, to the point that i think malcolm was also making, for the next foreseeable future this is what we're going to talk about. the bush atrump administration going anywhere. answering russian collusion, or potential obstruction of justice. >> answering those questions, not answering those questions or dealing with tweets from the president who keeps coming back to it when the administration wants to talk about other things. talk about other things. remember infrastructure? we were supposed to be talking about that. instead the president keeps digging the hole deeper. you know what, to this excuse-making for the president, yeah, he's not a politician, he doesn't know the custom and mores of washington, d.c., of the swamp, if you will. but you know what, the american people whether the person is a politician or not, when they send the president of the united

states to the white house, they expect that person to be prepared. and no one is fully prepared for the awesome responsible that comes with sitting in the oval office, but they damn well expect that person six months into the job would at least be curious enough to know how to comport himself to the duties and the riggers and responsibilities of that job. >> absolutely. thank you, guys. we're going to bring karine, kate, jennifer, all are going to come back, malcolm nance, thank you as always. up next, fresh reaction to the jeff sessions news. stay with us. [ snoring ] [ deep sleep snoring ] the all-new volkswagen atlas. seats seven, sleeps six. life's as big as you make it.

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you got someone who has a reputation for probity, someone who has a reputation for telling the truth, someone who has contemporaneous notes of what happened in these meetings and

these conversations. on the other hand, i think a lot of people will tell you the president, himself, sometimes makes accusations that turn out not to be true. i think he seems to have done that in a tweet this morning. >> this morning a justice department official who was fired two months before james comey, preet bharara, gave his first interview since trump forced him out as an attorney. while they wait for the white house to turn over alleged tapes with trump's talks with comey before deciding what man to believe, bharara is already ready to err on the side of kebl credibility. there is so much good preet bharara sound. i'm trying to pick something to go with, to go on with. let's start with the fact, i'll start with you, karine, donald trump tweeted earlier this morning, what preet bharara was referencing, "i believe the james comey leaks will be far more prevalent than anyone ever thought possible. totally illegal. very cowardly."

what duds it mean we're setting up a contest of credibility not between comey and trump but trump and preet bharara? karine? >> sorry, i didn't hear that, joy. >> sorry. >> i'm so sorry. >> that's okay. i'm come ba imco i'll come back and make sure we have your mike on well. what does it mean the trump defense is setting up contests between credibility, donald trump, and people like preet bharara? >> well, you know, one of the intrinsic problems is we've got a president who seems to be competing with somebody that he fired or didn't rehire. the end of the day, we're going to have a lot of commentary on all of this and the president maybe will stand down but i doubt it. comey is a respectable figure in this whole process. he articulates himself well. a couple things i'll tell you on

commentary is donald trump's never going to show his taxes and he's never going to testify under oath. i just don't believe either one of those things are going to happen because he doesn't have to but we'll see how this plays out. we haven't talked about, are there really tapes in the white house now? that's another piece of confusion that we'll see exactly what it means. >> yeah. sorry. that was me signaling to my crew. sorry about that. keep talking. keep talking. >> hey, joy? >> yeah, go ahead, john than. >> you know what, in this contest of credibility that we have here that's set up between the president of the united states, and the former fbi director, it's not even a fair fight. >> yeah. >> james comey has a reputation of moral rectitude going all the way back to the incident in the hospital room with then-attorney general ashkrocroft and going u against the president of the united states with a 34% approval rating and dropping and also a president who as the "washington post" fact checker

noted last week, in his first six months in office has made 600 misleading or false statements. it's not a fair fight. and the fact that the president keeps tweeting out -- tweeting heckles to the former fbi director, james comey, is mind-boggling, it's undisciplined and it's only going to make his life worse. >> yeah. i believe now we have karine's audio working again. i want to let you listen to a little bit of preet bharara of this morning implying heavily that trump is a liar. >> there is speculation in an accusation that there are other leaks and that's going to come out at some point in the future. i think there have been other accusations made in a haphazard unsubstantiated way by the president including his office was tapped or wiretapped. no evidence of that has ever materialized. i think the point is that accusations made in the heat of the moment in the 140 characters on twitter based on the track record of history are not to be

taken very seriously. >> it seems like all of trump's worst nightmares are all the people he fired. it's all the people he let go there are proving to be his undoing. >> right. and we all know that donald trump has this allergic kind of relationship with the truth. he doesn't seem to know what the definition of truth is. there's another statistics or numbers that i want to bring up which came from the "washington post" last week. even voters are questioning donald trump. they say -- there is a poll that said 56% of americans are saying that they think donald trump is actually interfering with the russian investigation. and there's one that says 61% of people thought that he fired james comey because he was trying to protect himself, not the country. so donald trump has a lot of problems here. he has that 34% approval rating and then people are paying attention to what's going on. it's not just in d.c. folks are paying attention to what's going on in this russian investigation and it's going to hurt donald trump more and the

republican party. >> yeah, jennifer. you know the old saying, it's not the crime but the cover-up. related but separate from the russia-gate investigation is the question of whether trump tried to obstruct it. preet bharara is a pretty darn good lawyer and this is what he had to say on the question of whether he sees evidence of obstruction. >> based on the third party of our government, there is no basis to say there is no obstruction. whether or not the president has legal authority to fire or direct an investigation. i don't really get it. it's a little silly to me. the fact you have authority to remove someone from office doesn't automatically immunize that act from criminal responsibility. >> and that is true, even, jennifer, you've been really strong on saying republicans are cowardly and not wanting to act, bu ju but just as a legal matter, if obstruction of justice happened, that could be separately pursued whether republicans wanted it to or not, right?

>> correct. there is an open question in our system whether a sitting president can be indicted. way back in watergate, leon duwarsky thought not, that the only remedy was impeachment. that's an open-ended question. first of all, jim comey isn't alone. he's going to have corroborating witnesses to whom trump said similar things. he's going to have the contemporaneous notes we've yet to see. so it's not just jim comey, it's all of these people against donald trump. and secondly, if you want to look at the polls, look at his trustworthy numbers. those are over 60% in those polls. so he's in a lot of trouble and frankly each one of these tweets in and of themselves may be considered witness tampering, retaliation. obstruction of justice. so his very act of responding indicts himself. >> yeah. katon, behind the scenes republicans are being -- they're showing a strong face. they're saying they think the comey testimony went great for donald trump. we just played a lot of them defending him. behind the scenes, though, is there any concern that trump is now toxic? you said to the agenda but also

maybe among some base voters? >> well, i don't know what the democrat operatives or democratic operatives are doing, joy, but i can tell you that once president obama got elected, we hunkered down and figured out how to go in over a thousand house and senate seats around the country. we found out how to win mayors' races on the back of very unpopular policies in the homeland that president obama was pushing. i don't know whether the democratic party is that well organized yet, and i don't know whether the toxicity of trump is there. i find that he gets a pass well beyond the scope of anything i've ever seen as a politician, and i think -- just yesterday i heard him getting credit for trying to be different in washington, for one who is willing to tell people where he is. so i can't tell you whether that poll number we're seeing coming out of quinnipiac or whether it

is going to last. i can tell you we're going to have really, really food bellwether curve looking at 2018 and those 33 senate seats that are up. then we'll know whether trump has a 2020 problem or a 2018 problem. >> let's ask karine jean. p pierre. is the democratic party equipped to take advantage of trump's problems? >> good question, joy. i hope so. we're going to see assaf. the assaf race is happening on june 0th so i think that will be a great indicator of where we are currently. the energy, it seems to be still be on the democratic side. i'm hoping it will be a wake-up call for the other side as well as to what's going on. republicans can't continue just protecting donald trump and being his enabler. but i think that right now the republicans have a problem for 2018. we have those 23 -- those 23 seats that -- in the house that

hillary clinton overperformed in, and those are republican seats. and those are suburban seats. the thing i don't understand is republicans don't just need donald trump voters, they need independents. they also need democratic voters to keep those seats. and they don't seem to care about anybody else except donald trump's voters. i'm not really quite understanding that. so it's going to be a tough sell for republicans if this is what they continue to do. >> we shall see. karine jean-pierre, thank you very much. katon, jennifer and jonathan will be back. coming up, congressional republicans don't let comey week keep them from their agenda. up next, the latest attack on their attack on obamacare. ♪ ♪ award winning interface. award winning design. award winning engine. the volvo xc90. the most awarded luxury suv of the century.

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this year it has added significance because the people of puerto rico are headed to the polls today to vote on whether the u.s.s territory will become the 51st state, declare its independence or keep the status quo. this is the fifth time puerto rico has voted over their status and each time the territory has grown. puerto rico has its own constitution, own set of laws that can be overridden by the u.s. federal government. puerto ricans are u.s. citizens but cannot vote for the president and do not pay federal taxes which means they receive far less federal support for social programs than official states. territorial status partially contributed to puerto rico's current debt and migration crisis. even if voters choose statehood in today's vote, only congress can change puerto rico's status. the republican-led congress is unlikely to do that because as a state, puerto rico would probably fall in the democrats ae column. up next, republicans' latest sneak attack on obamacare. ♪

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will we have a hearing on the health care proposal? >> will we? >> yes. >> i think we've already had one. >> no, i mean on the proposal you're planning to bring to the floor of the senate for a vote. will there be a hearing? >> i've been invited to participate in this process and we are open to ideas and suggestions. >> well, i don't know that there's going to be another hearing, but we've invited you to participate with your ideas -- >> that's not true, mr. chairman. >> while all eyes were on former fbi director james comey on thursday, senator claire mccaskill was down the hall, trying to sneak the obamacare

repeal bill through the senate with no approval from democrats or from the public. >> when you say that you're inviting us, i heard you, mr. secretary, just heard you say, we'd love your support, for what? we don't even know. we have no idea what's being proposed. there's a group of guys in a backroom somewhere. we're not even going to have a hearing on a bill that impacts one-sixth of our economy. we're not going to have an opportunity to offer a single amendment. >> vox reported this week that like the extremely unpopular house bill, the senate version will also likely result in tens of millions of americans losing their insurance, especially the poor and the sick. so speed is of the essence, per vox. some of their members are eager to vote soon, acknowledging that public pressure against the bill is only likely to grow as the summer wears on. back with me, katon dawson,

jennifer ruben. i think i ask you this question all the time. this bill, the house version of t has a 17% approval rating. 17%. 62% of americans oppose it. in the latest quinnipiac poll. the idea of cutting medicaid is only approved by 30%. 65% of americans oppose cutting medicaid funding. and the last one, when asked who is responsible for the future problems with obamacare, trump and the gop, 63%. obama and the democrats, 26%. why, oh why, katon dawson, having seen with your own two eyes the disastrous effect of trying to pass universal health care, give people health care, the effect it had on democrats, that you guys benefited from, having seen that happen to democrats, why is your party try to take 23 million people's health care away? why do they think that's good politics? >> i'm not sure they think it's good politics. >> why are they doing it? >> history seems to repeat itself. i've said, and joy, we've had this discussion.

whichever party is going to own this policy of health care is going to own the defeats that come with it. because several things happen. people want cheap health care. >> yep. >> they want the ability to pick their own doctor. they want all the sound bites there. this is a big, big problem for the political party who's going to own it and the democrats handed it right to us. nancy pelosi right to us. harry reid. we didn't get to read that one, either. so the consequences are we promised in the election -- >> you almost made it, katon. there were months of hearings, months of hearings, all summer was hearings. remember the summit? remember the obamacare summer? let's go back. katon, come back with me. we watched the senate committees commit political suicide on tv and they were trying to give people health care. literally, when democrats were trying to give people health care and they were

self-emanating on television for the entire summer. katon dawson, please explain. >> it's going to be a long summer this time, too. >> jennifer ruben, you've observed your political party for a long time. it feels like political malpractice but the democrats are dead determined. the freedom caucus saved them by killing the bill. why are they bringing it back? >> this is bizarre. listen, it's very, very unpopular. it's also a crummy bill. it was thrown together because this group had to be appeased and that group had to be appeased. it's completely incoherent. so why are they doing it? they come back with the answer, because we promised. we promised to do something and it's stupid. maybe it's better not to keep your promise. i think they feel like their base will kill them if they don't do it. the base is already going to kill them because it's not doing what they wanted them to do.

>> right. >> so i think you have deep red state republicans in the senate and the house who think that it's a great idea to take away health care, and they have sworn up and down they're going to take it away. and then you have reality, which is it's a cruddy bill. it is a big giveaway to the rich. it's like a simon lagrese health care bill. you take away 23 million people's health care and you give tax cuts that almost wholly go to the top 1%. the democrats couldn't draw a better bill for which to excoriate the republicans. so i wish someone in the senate would kind of look around, turn to reality and say they don't like it out there. >> turn to your neighbor. the little monicle man on the monopoly board loves this bill. he's the only one. jonathan capehart, i think we have an answer why they're doing it because the word, obama, is in obamacare. also because of the orders of one donald trump. there's a tweet apparently

according to my producing team, he's fwetweeted about this. let's put the tweet up. hopefully i can read this with my squinty eyes. "the democrats have no message, no on economics, no on taxes, no on jobs, no on failing obamacare. they are only obstructionists!" jonathan, are they doing this because trump is telling them to? >> i'm doing my hillary clinton imitation. listen, listen, that clip of claire mccaskill is something that every democrat on the hill should watch, should study, should internalize. it's a message that every democrat who wants to take back the house in 18s is and wants to take back the white house in 2020 should watch and internalize. there's a lot of criticism out there that the democratic party has no message other than trump is horrendous. that hthey have nothing to stan for. what claire mccaskill did in that clip in that hearing was

there are issues affecting real people, need kraaddressed that happening while this cloud of russia is going on. and if democrats can't figure out how to beat back republicans who are trying to take health care away from millions of people -- the cbo estimated i think it's the house bill would snatch -- health care away from 23 million more americans. if democrats can't make hay over that and show what their alternative is, which is to keep and repair obamacare rather than institute trumpcare, then they deserve to lose. but the president's handing them the message, the capitol hill republicans are handing him the message. all they have to do is take it and run with it. >> there you go, you actually just answered my question. because we both know, we all know on this panel and i think i'm going to get an amen from katon finally on this show, the democrats don't have a unified response on this. claire mccaskill, withdrew have one-off people that get really strong momenty responses but you

have in ohio the "wall street journal" comes out, anthem, a big insurance company is dropping all together out of the exchanges. just the individual market. not the total market. they're warning there will be further withdraws, sharp rate increases if they're not given certainty about the future of the aca, particularly the cost sharing payments. house republican health bill does not include an appropriation for the payments. president trump threatened to stop them. it's clear the corporations with signaling it's republicans undermining health care now. >> right. >> insurance members say where is the unified democratic response? i'm not sure they know how to respond. >> no, clearly they don't. but again, even that story points the way for what democrats should be saying, that the republican party, that the trump white house is doing anything and everything to not only repeal the affordable care act, repeal obamacare, but setting up the conditions to make it possible that if they can't repeal and so-call replace obamacare that the whole thing

is undermined, the entire foundation, that the whole thing potentially implodes. not because it's unpopular, but because the white house and administration have made it so uncertain that, you know, business like certainty. when there's uncertainty, they to whatever it takes to protect themselves. if that means throwing millions of people off health care, making only one insurance company or one policy available in an entire state, then so be it. the white house is supposed to -- and the federal government is supposed to be looking out for the least of these, and that's not what is happening now. >> katon, so what is the threshold? i'm sure your party is sort of popping champagne that the republicans, the democrats, or dnc, that apparatus really hasn't organized itself to respond to this on a big-name basis. republican voters are going to understand that they no longer have the money to have their elder senior family members in elder care because medicaid

payments are going to be cut an run out of money. they understand they don't have health care for their children anymore. you have something like repealing dodd/frank that wall street is going to love. that's going to remind people they're bringing back the casinos that broke a lot of people in the first place. give us a sense, what is the threshold. forget the base of the trump vote. they're not going anywhere. i'm talking about for business-minded republicans. moderate suburbanish republicans. what's their threshold? >> joy, what i hear and see in polling, this is really serious, i see an electorate that understood our government can't afford anything. we've got a $20 trillion deficit. i know we all talk about the deficits and the interests and all of that. this is what helped propel trump to winning an election. is the realization that we can't have everything. >> i mean, are people willing to give up meals on wheels and their own health care and their children's health care? are they saying we can't afford everything, so i'm going to give

up my health care, my children's health care, my mom's health care and meals on wheel? republicans, is that how cold they are, if they think we can't afford everything, the first thing to go is the old and the poor? >> is it going to be nasa? what is going to be the first thing to go? i don't know yet. >> how about tax cuts for the rich? >> jennifer, last -- yeah. go on, katon. target, tax cuts for the rich, and we have to define who the rich is and who is going to take what. at the end of -- >> that's a good question, katon, if people are saying we can't afford everything, how can we afford tax cuts for the rich then? >> how are we going to build an economy that's going to be able to afford what obviously the president has looked for, which is a guy who has three jobs needs to move to two jobs. the guy with one job can find a job. >> how does giving the top .5% tax cuts and repealing the estate tax accomplish that? >> repealing the estate tax, that's got a $5 million

threshold. that's a whole other discussion. the difference is we've got to create an environment where our government can take in more money so it can fund the programs that we all want. >> we got to go. >> the question is we have to define exactly what those programs are. >> we're going to have this discussion again. this is a great panel. some of our all-stars on "a.m. joy." coming up, the movie trailer that has the interpret on fire. that's next. "how to win at business." step one: point decisively with the arm of your glasses. abracadabra. the stage is yours.

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you are a good man. ♪ step into the spotlight with a good heart. it's hard for the good man to be good. >> fire burned him. brilliant. all right. the bad news? you're going to have to wait until 2018 to see it. sorry. more "a.m. joy" after the break. garfunkel (instrumental) is that good? yeah it's perfect. bees! bees! go! go! go! [ girl catching her breath } [ bees buzzing inside vehicle ] the all-new volkswagen atlas. with easy-access 3rd row. life's as big as you make it. come close, come close. fun in art class.

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♪ ♪ baby don't close the door come on baby don't you want to go ♪ ♪ same old place sweet home chicago ♪ ♪ >> during his presidency, barack obama made it a point to always bring the celebration of black music and artists to the white house. and unlike pride month, we see you trump white house, which is also in june, black music month happened to be one of the designations at the trump administration didn't snub. this month, the white house followed tradition and released a statement declaring june african-american music month, singling out the accomplishments of chuck berry, ella fitzgerald and dizzy gillispie. there is more to black music than white house designations.

for many artists, the industry can be more troublesome than triumphant. here to discuss is somebody who has been heavily involved in the music industry for a very long time, yes, rap rehab founder paul porter and he's the author of a new book "blackout: 40 years in the music business" and good friend and mentor of mine. thank you for being here. good to see you. let's talk about this. blackout is a new book, lots of people posted on social media about it. the idea of sort of celebrating black music often negates the difficulty. >> blackout, when i decided to do the book, we lost so much over the years, music was my passion growing up right in jamaica queens. i learned a lot from music. and now we have went from lyricists to the lyric we challenge, and some of the problems, corporate, and corporations want quick fixes, the big days of music bands are

over. and, you know -- >> how much has radio played, how much of a role has radiomoi making it difficult -- >> radio is it. there is a chapter in there about pay for playing. and corporate radio, you know, you hear, you know, 20 years ago you would hear the top ten songs every four hours. now you hear them every 60 minutes, less variety, and pockets of being filled on all levels. and it is hurting the music. >> a lot of people will remember you from bet and the music television definitely played a role in sort of the way that black music changed. i want to play a clip from 1983, this is bet's competitor mtv and a point that the late david bowie was making about the respect that black music has gotten over the years. >> okay. >> i'm just thrilled by the fact that so few black artists

featured on it, why is that? >> i think we're trying to move in that direction. we want to play artists that seem to be doing music that fits into what we want to play for mtv. >> the only few black artists that one do see is on at about 2:30 in the morning to 6:00. very few featured freedom nan y predominantly during the day. >> did that hurt or help black music? >> i think it helped for a while given the exposure. i remember being at bet in the '90s. we were all music videos. folks loved it. but as time changed, you know, the images changed and the content changed. and we went from super bands and singers to rap. and i love hip-hop. i know you love hip-hop too. >> i do. >> but things have been homogenized a lot. and i'm all about balance. you know, we should be able to empower kids by music. >> is it legitimately true that

a person can make a good living at a musical artist if you're not also a writer and producer? >> you can, but it is rare. you know, and that's what i talk about in the book, that the odds, you know, we love jay-z and bae, but they're one in a gazillion. it is tough to be competitive in the music business without money. >> absolutely. paul porter, my friend, thank you very much for being here. the book is "blackout." >> blackoutthebook.com. >> i want to say thank you to the policy forum. my team and i attended the 20th anniversary gala last night. i was honored to receive the george curry drum major of justice award for excellence in journalism. thank you very much for that special honor. that is our show for today. be sure to join us next weekend for more "a.m. joy."

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