anyway, tomorrow is the big baseball game at the park. republicans against the democrats at the baseball park. thank you for watching. i'll see you back here tomorrow night at 6:00 p.m. eastern. "hardball" starts right now. obstruction of justice. this is "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. donald trump and his ties with moscow remain the big story here even on a day struck by violence. late this evening, another bombshell from "the washington post." quote, the special counsel overseeing the investigation into russia's role in the 2016 election is interviewing senior intelligence officials as part of a widening probe that now includes an examination of whether president trump attempted to obstruct justice. so he's in the crosshairs. although former director comey

assured president trump he was not under investigation, officials now say that changed shortly after comey's firing. this comes after "the new york times" reported that the president has been considering firing mr. mueller himself, but someone on his staff waved him off the idea warning this would make a bad situation worse. we'll see about that. yesterday deputy attorney general rod rosenstein assured members of congress that mr. mueller's investigation would remain independent. >> director mueller is going to have a full degree of ipdence that he needs. as long as i'm in this position, he's not going to be fired without good cause. >> that's bad news for trump. for now, robert mueller is safe. i'm joined by "washington post's" devlin barrett, glenn thrush, and ashley parker, white house reporter for "the washington post." thank you all. let me start with glenn and work across the table here. let's talk about this. "the washington post" is reporting tonight that the

special counsel robert mueller is in fact focusing on the president not about the russian matter so much right now, but what about he did to quash the investigation, whether he -- i think it's about comey and what he tried to get comey to do, swear loyalty to him, end the investigation of the michael flynn, and ultimately fired the guy. are they the elements of this case? >> well, you know, as people have said before, it's often not the crime but the cover-up. and we knew generally that the comey -- his interactions with comey were problematrom an obstruction of justice poi of view. i'm not say he obstructed justice, but certainly worth investigating. what's novel about this story is they're also talking to dan coats, admiral rogers of the nsa and one of admiral rogers' deputies. i'm very intrigued to figure out what they are going to talk about. and, chris, what makes this very interesting is we reported yesterday that the thing that is driving the president most crazy, the reason why he would even consider trying to get rosenstein to get rid of mueller, is he wanted an

exoneration personally in this matter. and what "the washington post" story does is precisely the opposite. >> let me go to devlin barrett who broke this story for the post. tell us how it all fits together, trump's fear of a relationship perhaps. i'm trying to see it from trump's point of view. some concern that there's a relationship, an axis of evil as far as he's concerned between comey and mueller. and, in fact, trump's dislike for having anybody coming at him, and this is a case where they're going at him on a matter that could be impeachable. >> right. so what we're reporting is that there is a serious look, a serious investigation into trump's conduct about possible attempted obstruction of justice. and, look, a lot of the factual stuff is out there. you know, comey certainly laid out a lot of facts that he said he was concerned. but he said, ultimately that's up to mueller to take a look at. what we're told is mueller is in fact taking a look at it. as glenn pointed out, you know, it's an interesting part of this

that they are going to be talking to, you know, senior intelligence officials about this issue. >> do we know how close this is to targeting him? i mean we hear these phrases like subject of investigation, interested party, whatever, and then we know the term target. is trump a target? >> well, technically speaking, trump can't be a target in the normal legal sense of the word because justice department policy is that a sitting president can't be indicted. but the point here -- that's a little nicety. the point here is that there is an investigation going on to see if the president may have committed a crime. that's a pretty big deal. i think that's a remarkable step in this investigation generally. >> well, who else could be focused on his guilt of obstruction of justice, whether it's impeachable or indictable in either case, than the person who did it? maybe i'm talking a redundancy, but there's only one guy that

can obstruct justice in this case. that's the president, who has hiring and firing authority ultimately over anybody in the executive branch because he could keep firing people a la nixon until he got the person to do what he wanted him to do or found the person that would do it, you know. >> well, that's right. a key part of this investigation is the firing of comey itself obviously. and we're told that it was days after that event that this investigation, looking specifically at the president's conduct began. >> let's talk to ashley. you guys report these great stories every day in this great rivalry between the times and the post. this trump determination to control all things on the planet, you know, we know that part. he owns things. he buys things. the guy basically controls the universe that he's in tangible touch with. now he finds himself in a situation where there's such a thing as a justice department and an fbi director, and because of his behavior and man

handling, there's a special counsel looking at him. it makes sense according to the reporting that we're getting that he will try to get rid of this guy. now we find out the guy has him in the crosshairs, that he's the subject of an objection of justice investigation. >> originally the president didn't like the investigation into possible collusion and because he was trying to control it and publicly exonerate himself, he took some steps that have now led to this next investigation into possible obstruction of justice that is being led by mueller. and now he's certainly not going to like that as glenn's story mentioned last night. and likely normally in one of these situations, a traditional president when they are getting investigated for this, they lock down. they have their lawyers do all the speaking for them. but trump, if history is any indication, is going to try to control this, going to try to get in front of this, and that's where he could run into even more headaches. >> john, everybody has watched this fight between the intelligence agencies and the executive going back to scooter libby and all that crap that went on with the neocons in the

white house and over in the defense department. the intelligence people don't particularly likewise guy politicians. they don't like them. they don't like people that cover their butt every time they do something wrong. what role will the tension community play in this case because if it shifts from the ties with russia to the question of covering up those behaviors, what is he fearful? is he afraid of -- probably not what steve bannon will or won't say or reince priebus. he must be worried about the public servants, the civil ser varn vants around him. >> when i looked at the hearings over the last several days, it seemed to me the big missing piece here -- and this may be what has changed the story a bill -- is that we don't have any insight publicly into whatever conversations the president had with the director of national intelligence, dan coats. >> they won't talk. >> well, they won't talk. that's right. so far they haven't talked. >> will they talk under the pressure of a subpoena? will they talk to fbi agent who's come and interview them?

>> oh, of course they will. >> or do you need a grand jury? >> no. i think they'll talk under oath to mueller's people. coats didn't talk publicly. rogers did some closed session . my hunch here is whatever took place in those conversations is going to be pivotal because when you look at what comey heard from trump, it raises suspicions. if you find that ultimately the president also asked coats and others to intervene with comey, i think it adds a lot of evidence, a lot of weight to the suspicion about obstruction of justice. so i think that may be the new element that we're seeing emerge. >> they're not weasels, these guys. they are men in this case who have proud careers behind them, and they'd like to have proud legacies. they're not like the weasely people run ago round that table with him in the cabinet the other day. a spokesperson for president

trump's personal lawyer, marc kasowitz -- now he's got a lawyer for spokespeople. following the statement in response to "the washington post" reporting, quote, the fbi leak of information regarding the president is outrageous and inexcusable, and illegal. let's go to the guy who got the story. devlin, are you guilty of all those crimes? i mean it just seems like anything that gets reported unofficially about this administration, he didn't put out in some sort of bleep or whatever, tweet, is somehow a crime. if it hasn't been tweeted by trump, it's a crime. we're not supposed to know what happens behind the scenes. what do you think of this lawyer's mouth piece? now we've got a mouthpiece with a mouthpiece. this is outrageous. go ahead. what do you think of it, the charge that you guys are guilty of a crime or somebody is? devlin? >> i'm sorry. i didn't realize that was to me. one of the things --

>> that's how i ask a question. what's the problem, devlin? let's go. >> speak, devlin. >> here's the thing. here's how i see it. part of what's interesting to me about what we're reporting is that, you know, people have been framing the comey/trump dynamic as essentially a he said/he said. what i think is interesting about the current state of the investigation is their trying to figure out, okay, who can corroborate comey's version or trump's version of events, and they're looking at frankly senior government officials who had other conversations with the president on some of these topics. and that's an important dynamic. >> did you hear mclaughlin just say that? it would be people of some prominence who are principled, people like the head of national intelligence, the cia people and nsa, people who have principled positions. >> there's not that many one-witness cases in the world. prosecutors don't do much with one-witness cases.

so what you're seeing is you're seeing them gather up a bunch of witnesses and see what the totality of that is. >> okay. let me ask glenn. if you were to have like a universal judgment like we studied religion, where everybody is going to be in the room and know the full truth. >> i hope not, man. >> in this case, i hope we're going to get close. who would you want in the room to find out whether there was obstruction of justice here, which is now apparently going to the subject of this general counsel's efforts for a while now, to find out whether the president of the united states obstructed justice. who could prove such? >> look, i'd want you in the room. but, look, i'm not sure who the ultimate arbiter is. clearly the white house is attempting to erode mueller's credibility. here's what's interesting about that kasowitz statement. he said the fbi is leaking all this stuff. devlin, correct me if i'm wrong -- >> devlin's gone. >> i'm here. >> okay. he's here. >> what do you want? >> your story does not say that your sourcing on this was the

fbi. kasowitz wanted to inject into that story their beef with the fbi. it is not something that your story ascertained. it is clear -- i think the tell of kasowitz's statement is they want to pick that fight with comey, and they want to pick that fight with the fbi. >> that's right. and i'll be honest. from where i sit, it's not clear to me how much they even differentiate between mueller and the fbi and comey at this point. but you're absolutely right that our story doesn't put any of this on fbi officials. >> first i think it's a complete distraction. i don't care whether the president's valet gave us the information. i want to know what happened. let me get back to you, devlin. i want to ask about this sense from the president's perspective, when he puts his little head -- everything is little, i guess, when he puts his head on the pillow tonight and he starts worrying, he's worried because the deep state as the right wing would say, the deep state's coming. it could be just the truth's

coming after him. what's he really afraid of, and who has the truth? who possesses the ability to hurt him in court or before the congress? >> well, i think what they're doing is they're compiling the strongest evidentiary case they have for good or bad. and, you know, i think to some degree, only those people know how solid the evidence is. and if you look at the way this process works, it's -- a lot of this is about public opinion ultimately. even though it's the work of prosecutors and the work of agents, when it comes to investigating the president, ultimately that is congress's decision to decide what to do about it. >> yeah, but in the end, i mean i was around in watergate and what brought nixon down was the june 23rd tape. in the end, facts matter t. wasn't the good guys finally won. it turned out to be an evidentiary case against nixon. it really did. ashley, your thoughts about who are the players in this in the end? who are the people in the room that are going to decide what the truth is or let us know what it is about obstruction of justice charges? >> i mean with trump i could see

there being even more players going forward. this assumes that what the post reported tonight and what we've seen is the only potential instances of obstruction of justice. what we know about this president, again, is that there may be in the days coming forward, in his attempt to exonerate himself or regain control of the situation, more instances, more tweets, more inadvisable conversations, and there might be players and moments that we don't even know about yet because they haven't happened. >> there is a captain kwig aspect to this, and we don't know what's going to push him over the edge. we don't know. >> i think knowing robert mueller and the way he operates, i don't think it's going to be all that hard to get the facts here. he'll get the facts. the people you want in the room are all the people we've been talking about here. in a normal administration, a lot of conversations go on in the corridors of the white house, on the way out to the cars. people have been talking about this in the administration, and he's going to talk to all of them. and the facts will get out on the table. and then the difficult decision is going to be does that amount to intent to obstruct justice?

and ultimately he'll have to make a recommendation on that. >> well said. thank you so much. thank you. congratulations on that piece. front page, top of the fold, right-hand side. coming up, the latest on that shooting in virginia this morning that left four injured, including u.s. congressman steve scalise, all while they were practicing for a congressional baseball game. there's something i didn't know. how many weeks of practice go into this? can't they pass a health care bill while they're practice something and that shooting could have been far more tragic if it weren't for the actions of the capitol police? i've never been so proud of that organization. plain and simple they were the heroes. we're going to have more on this late breaking story from "the washington post" and also what attorney general jeff sessions and former fbi director james comey had to say on the russia investigation. that's the beefy part of this story. the question is where do we find

the truth? the "hardball" roundtable will be here to help us. finally let me finish tonight with a shooting that occurred in today's early morning baseball practice session. this is "hardball," where the action is.

well, the u.s. overwhelming bassed a bipartisan agreement today on new sanctions against russia, and the president might not like the fine print that goes along with it. it would now require the u.s. congress to weigh in before trump is permit totd lift or relax those sanctions against moscow. the agreement also slaps russia with new financial penalties. he won't like this. and we'll be right back. reaction... ...that's heard throughout the connected business world. at&t network security helps protect business, from the largest financial markets to the smallest transactions, by sensing cyber-attacks in near real time and automatically deploying countermeasures. keeping the world of business connected and protected.

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[ mooing sound ] it's drivng me crazy come on. [ spitting from tongue ] time for my secret weapon. sports, movies, tv, ah... show me music to distract a minion. [ voice remote click ] [ pharrell starts to play ] ahh. i'm pretty smart- ahhh! [ mooing sounds ] [ minions laughing ] show me unicorns. [ voice remote click ] together: ahhh... that works too. find your awesome with the xfinity x1 voice remote. see despicable me 3 in cinemas in june. welcome back to "hardball." now that the act of violence right across the potomac river from here. this morning the shooting of four people including a republican congressional leader by an outraged hater of donald trump, and republicans in general who volunteered last

year in the presidential campaign of senator bernie sanders. as of this afternoon, house majority whip steve scalise of louisiana is in critical condition following surgery. this is serious for him according to the hospital. we all hope for him. others wounded include house staffer zach barth and matt mika, and one of the capitol police officers who returned the fire, crystal griner. the gunman later died in the hospital as a result of his wounds he got from the capitol police. the chaos was captured on a cell phone video. here's a bit of it. almost 20 republican -- well, let's take a look. [ gunshots ]

>> do we know where he's at? >> he's behind home plate. >> did you call 911? >> i assume people have been calling 911 already. >> hey, is that guy okay out there? the guy -- has that guy been shot? is he okay? anybody talking to him? [ gunshots ] >> wow, almost 20 republican lawmakers actually witnessed that attack along with their staffers and at least two children were there. here's how they painted the gruesome scene. >> we were taking batting practice and shagging balls infield. a gunshot went off. >> the next thing i heard was, run, he's got a gun. >> a shooter came out to practice, started shooting. he shot at trent kelly, our third baseman. he shot at steve scalise. >> steve scalise, after being shot, dragged himself across part of the infield and into the outfield about 10 to 15 yards to get further away from the shooter. you could see the trail that he

had left, trail of blood. >> scalise's security detail and capitol hill police immediately began -- to return fire. >> one of our staffers was wounded. he was bleeding from his calf. >> we feared he might come into the dugout and take us all ou >> my son, jack, got under an suv, and he was very brave. my other son, brad, was in the batting cage, and he also was very brave. >> authorities identified the gunman as 66-year-old james hodgkinson, an illinois resident with strong anti-trump views, who also worked for the campaign of senator bernie sanders last year. earlier today, senator sanders condemned the actions of his supporter in his remarks from the senate floor. here's senator sanders. >> i have just been informed that the alleged shooter at the

republican baseball practice this morning is someone who apparently volunteered on my presidential campaign. i am sickened byhis dpicable act, and i condemn this action in the strongest possible terms. >> fair enough. much of the reporting today indicates that hodgkinson had a political motive to what he did because prior to the shooting, two u.s. congressmen who encountered him said he asked them whether the players on the field were republicans or democrats. he apparently got the answer he wanted before he shot. honl kinson's relatives have also told nbc news that the shooter was upset by the election of president trump. his social media profile and several of his letters to the editor of the local newspaper also reveal deep animosity toward the republican party. i'm joined by pete williams, justice correspondent with nbc news. america, we do have a lot of guns and we have a lot of people with strong passions politically.

this was a frightening, tragic confluence of the two. >> right. so the question is how did the two come together because thousands of people probably have views similar to his and have expressed them. people who have talked to him in recent days say that he was hanging around alexandria, virginia, where the ballpark is, say he never spoke violently. they never heard him say anything threatening or anything that would cause them to call the authorities. so the question is why did he come to washington in the first place? the investigators say he apparently came here in late march and has been, in essence, homeless, living out of his van, a white cargo van that they found parked near the baseball park. and he had been using the local ymca, which is right across the street from this ballpark, to shower. he would frequently be seen there or near a nearby drugstore, always in the area, sometimes asking if people had ideas of what he could do for a job. he was a home inspector back in belleville, illinois, which is a

burb of st. louis. why he left the, why he came here, it's still a mystery. they just don't know the answer to that question. he died shortly after the shooting. he can't provide the answer. so at this hour, they have not found the answer to that question, but they've got a lot of things to look through, a lot of people to talk to. and the second question they don't know is when did he acquire the assault rifle that he used in today's shooting, chris. >> great account. thanks so much nbc's pete williams as always. joining me right now is republican congressman bill johnson of ohio, who left the scene this morning just before the shots broke out. howard fineman and jay newton-small. coressman, how do you put all this together in your head? i mean, you know, it brings up the issue of gun rights, the issue of gun control. the issue of political passions getting out of hand. we don't know what mental state this guy was in. you assume people like this -- maybe this is just progressive talking. if somebody does something crazy like this, there must be something crazy about them. not necessarily.

there are motives that people totally get wrapped up in and they behavior horribly. >> the first thing that goes through my mind is the heroic actions of the capitol hill police and the work they did this morning. you were a capitol policeman earlier in your career, and it's -- >> well, i know they have their heart in the right place, and building. die for that capitol aolutely. >> this is one of the cases where they've risked their lives. >> i've heard some of the stories from the scene about how they responded, one trying to draw fire away from the gunman while the other was down. the other picking herself up and returning fire. i was not there during the actual shooting, but i heard some of these things from my -- >> i'm glad they had the right weapons. i'm not a gun guy, but i'm glad they had semiautomatics because we used to have a 38 special with five bullets in it. just listening to that exchange of fire, it went beyond five shots. >> there were a lot of bullets flying around. >> what's the mood like among your caucus right now? >> i think awareness that the

political rhetoric in our country has gotten to a point that we've got to address that as lawmakers. and there's been a lot of talk about that today. as you know, speaker ryan on the house floor and -- >> he got a pause today. >> a real pause. >> and nancy pelosi was very strong in supporting him. >> absolutely. we've got to start talking differently, chris. we've got to understand that government of, for, and by the people has always been difficult. politics has always been contentious. but we don't have to start shooting each other when we don't get our way. >> howard, you and i know each other. you know what goes into somebody's -- we can say wacky behavior because they're dead. we don't know what sadness was in this guy's life. what his prospects were. something that made him mad at the world so he focused on republicans. he did understand inequality as an issue. bernie sanders wrote about that in the paper the other day. there's nothing wrong with the issue.

it's a great issue to fight for if you're a progressive. but he got it into his hand that he was going to get better equality of incomes by killing people. that isn't going to happen. >> chris, i think what concerns the people in congress today -- and i talked to a number of them about just this point that the congressman here was making -- is that troubled people now seem to have permission to act out, have a trigger from politics to act out their violent behavior. and i think members are asking themselves, at least the ones i talked to, you know, saying what role does the vehemence and sometimes even the violent nature of language that's used today contribute to this atmosphere? paul ryan got an ovation from democrats and republicans alike. i know of members of congress who invited people from the opposite party and their staffs -- by the way, you were also a staffer on the hill. let's not forget the staffers on the hill there. donald trump mentioned that again. so staffers from different parties getting together on the hill. why is it that it takes something like this? also we're always looking for

pivotal moments in washington that are going to change the nature of washington. you have to hope that something like this will. >> okay. >> but how long does it last? >> we've been through it all. congressman too. bobby kennedy was shot down by a pistol, by sirhan sirhan. you put him in jail for life. what does that do? it doesn't solve the problem yet, and i think i -- by the way, one interesting thing about the members and the congressman knows about this. there are reasonable human relations among politicians. they get up in the morning at 6:00 in the morning. they get up early to go practice for a game that matters to them and probably in this game that's going to be plapyed tomorrow night, there's a lot of collegiality. when a guy strikes out, you rag him on it for weeks. you say, that was a hell of a run there or a couple strikeouts. so it does improve their relationships. but there are a lot of people watching the game politically who get much more enraged than the politicians do, i would bet.

>> part of the problem is the news cycle, right? people don't see the other side. people self-select into this news cone, and they only see the self-reinforcing news. then they just think the whole world is -- >> nobody is telling them to kill anybody. >> it becomes a struggle between good and evil. it becomes a zero sum game when instead, politics always used to be everyone lost, everyone was in the boat together. >> i think literally the governor on the engine is off. >> how does it feel over there among members? >> they're shocked, but they're determined. that's why we're playing the game tomorrow night. >> thank you. the game will go on. >> the game will go on. >> should they mix up the sides? i've heard it suggested. >> i don't know. the record right now is 39-39. >> i hope mr. scalise gets through this all right. >> i'll pass that long. >> thank you for joining us.

house speaker paul ryan says the entire house is united today in their humanity, but with such a heated political climate out there, how do you continue to keep our lawmakers safe? how about keeping us all safe? this is "hardball," where the action is.

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as police approached. at least 12 people are confirmed dead when a fire torched a 27 story building london. neighbors are donating clothes, food, and water and offering shelter to the survivors. back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." we saw a rare moment of solidarity if you will from the white house to the capitol today. president trump canceled an event over at the labor department, and the house canceled votes in the wake of today's shooting as washington embrace the unity in the face of tragedy. let's take a look. >> everyone on that field is a public servant. our courageous police, our congressional aides who work so tirelessly behind the scenes with enormous devotion, and our dedicated members of congress who represent our people.

>> it seems particularly sad although any violent death, of course, is sad. but particularly sad that at a time when people want us to come together and we're prepared to come together tomorrow night, that this assault would be made. but we cannot let that be a victory for the assailant. >> we do not shed our humanity when we enter this chamber. for all the noise and all the fury, we are one family. we are being tested right now. i ask each of you to join me to resolve to come together, to lift each other up and to show the country, to show the world that we are one house, the people's house, united in our humanity. >> kristen welker and kasie hunt. i want to start with you, kasie

because you have a close working relationship. you're covering these men and women. you're now legally allowed to tackle them again which i think is fantastic television when you trap them near the elevator. what do you sense about this? to me, having watched politics for a thousand years, nobody except for somewhat -- well, i'm not going to give them a name. newt gingrich. except for him, nobody is saying, oh, gotcha. i thought it was interesting rye ryan didn't try to do that. oh, you're guy is the villain this night. he's the shooter. >> they weren't at all quite frankly, chris. i think the day sort of concluded with a press conference with the two coaches of the team, joe barton of course was there and had gotten very emotional. and the thing that joe barton got up there and said was, you

know, your members of congress are people first. he said the tenor of the discourse has changed so much that people show up to these town halls and they yell things that barton called obnoxious. he said, it's as though they don't know we might have a personal feeling about this. he said, this is a reminder you're members of congress. yes, they are there to hear from you, but they are people too. i would say being in the halls of congress over the last eight, ten hours, it has felt like everybody here was a person today before they were a member of a political party, and that is not something that is always the case here. i saw members from both sides of the aisle embracing each other somewhat spontaneously. they were acting as an entire group onto the house floor. i kind of got caught up in the hundreds of members streaming from the auditorium to the house floor to listen to pelosi and ryan. they were quiet and somber and reflective, and they felt like

an actual group of one instead of two parties split in two. >> let's talk about dan coats who is going to testify before the senate committee tomorrow in closed session, executive session. listening to all the reporters here tonight from the post and the times and john mclaughlin from the intelligence community, they think he's the key because he's probably going to be a -- if there is any obstruction of justice, the witnesses would be somebody like mike rogers or coats, who were certainly in those conversations close enough to the president if something was going on to obstruct justice, they would be the witnesses you'd go to look to. >> i think the questions aund this, chris, are going to center on whether or not those -- and we know that the nsa director was in front of the senate intelligence committee earlier in the week doing this closed session. whether they stonewall in that closed session the same way that they did in the open session because if they are willing to talk about this without invoking executive privilege, then i think there may be some ground for the senate intelligence committee to uncover here. so that's going to be my

question tomorrow. >> let me go to kristen on this. kristen, i've never seen a white house so good at avoiding responsibility for anything. look at these guys. they first of all turn it over to a new york lawyer, kasowitz, and say direct your questions to him up in new york even though it's a white house matter. it's a political matter. then we find out that he's got a press secretary. we now have to listen to that person. it seems like they're doing a pretty good job of diverting press inquiries, legitimate as they are, away from the guy we're interested in hearing from, which is the presidency of donald trump. >> that's right. i think there are some legal reasons for that as well, chris. concerns that if one of the top officials here were to say the wrong word, that that could get the president in some type of legal jeopardy. but i went back at it this evening, tried to get a reaction from white house officials about the developments reported out by "the washington post" that the president is being investigated for obstruction of justice. and, yes, they diverted me to the outside counsel. but i think the strategy there is worth taking a look at.

the fact that the response that we're getting from the outside counsel focuses on the leaks. it doesn't dispute "the washington post" reporting. and this is a real strategy that we're seeing aimed at undercutting the investigation, aimed at undercutting the person heading the investigation, robert mueller. think about how this week started out, chris. we were discussing whether or not the president was thinking about firing robert mueller. now it seems as though he's walked back on that, but it's something he was batting around, potentially to hang it over the head of robert mueller. i can tell you that the goal tomorrow is going to be to turn the page. the president's going to be meeting with a number of governors here at the white house. he wants to talk about jobs and his agenda, but this probe continues to hang over this administration. we didn't have a briefing today, chris, because of the shooting. we will luikely get one in some form tomorrow and undoubtedly this is going to be our top question. >> here's a tradecraft question for you, okay? i'm going to ask you, kristen, does all this talk about leaks stop leaks in any way? does it make it harder to get a

decent story out of somebody? >> well, i think to some extent, it has made some people nervous. it has sent a strong message. but look, chris, the fact that we know about this story, the fact that "the washington post" has this reporting is an indication that it's not stopping would-be leakers, and it's not stopping everyone. so i do think that it's made people -- some people more cautious, but undoubtedly not everyone. and we're seeing that tonight. but i think that the administration is going to keep trying. that is their primary strategy right now to focus on these leaks and leakers. >> they don't like the truth. thank you so much kristen and kasie. up next, more of that late breaking story tonight from "the washington post" as kristen just mentioned. the special counsel, robert mueller, is investigating donald trump for possible obstruction of justice, which of course is impeachable. you're watching "hardball." when you booked this trip, you didn't know we had over 26,000 local activities listed on our app.

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so he said those things under oath, would you be willing to speak under oath to give your version of those events? >> 100%. i didn't say under oath. i hardly know the man. i'm not going to say i want you to pledge allegiance. who would do that? who would ask a man to pledge allegiance under oath? think of it. i hardly know the man. it doesn't make sense. no, i didn't say that, and i didn't say the other. >> so if robert mueller wanted to speak with you about that -- >> i would be glad to tell him exactly what i just told you. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was president trump this past friday telling reporters he would speak to special prosecutor robert mueller under oath. tonight we've learned from "the washington post" in a late breaking story that robert mueller is investigating trump right now for possible obstruction of justice, which of course could lead to an impeachment proceeding. tonight's "hardball" roundtable, ken vogel, chief investigative reporter for politico, and shannon pettypiece, white house reporter for bloomberg, and

astead herndon, national political reporter for "the boston globe." astead, it seems this is getting to be a play with a very limited nib of characters, the president, mueller, james comey still. he's very much a part of this story because he's sort of the witness in all regards. of course you've got dan coats, the director of national intelligence, mike rogers, nsa, and all these people now are all around the question of did the president obstruct justice with regard to this russia investigation. astead? >> that's the news we're really getting from this is that the special counsel robert mueller is widening the scope of what he's liking at. that's where we're going to understand is if there is a question of obstruction of justice, we originally thought it was going to be a he said/he said between president trump and director comey. we now understand the special counsel is looking to other people to corroborate that version of events and see who is telling the truth here and who can back up -- >> so it's reasonable to assume

if trump does have those magic tapes, that he will begin to play them. >> right. this is the time. >> i don't think he's got that little secret weapon. go ahead, shannon. talk about these five people. they're all guys. >> right. so it's becoming he said, he said, he said, he said versus he said. so they end up piling on. >> one has a record of speaking professionally, like comey. the other one is known never to say anything that adds up the next day. >> right or how many times has president trump given depositions and had to backwalk facts. all the president cared about at this point -- >> he ran a whole university based on nothing. >> was on not being under investigation. the big win from that comey testimony last week was, i'm not under investigation, i'm not under investigation. and here we are this week. happy birthday, mr. president. you're under investigation. >> they were having a thrill -- well, anyway, they were running around the end zone, i should say, enjoying that. >> the key here, chris, is that comey was perfectly willing to come out publicly in this testimony as well as privately

through friends, give his version of events, which contradicted trump's. we have reporting that coats had a phone call with trump in which trump sort of suggested that he might come out against the fbi investigation into flynn or urge the fbi to stand down. but coats himself has been publicly very receipt sent during his testimony as well as rogers, they both would not discuss what trump talked about with them. now we know they're going to have to talk about it with mueller. >> astead, legitimate arguments. you could say our foreign policy should get a little more hawkish or a little more dovish, and you gradually modulate those things. but there's such a thing as objective truth, and i think this is an investigation into that. and i don't think trump wants an investigation into objective truth. that's my hunch. i don't think he wants the truth to come out. i think he's tried to gag his people. they talk about immunity, taking the fifth amendment. he talks about executive

privilege. there's talk about firing guys. he fired one. he fired sally yates. he fired bharara. he just keeps firing people who might just come out with the truth. he can't fire mueller now. i think we assume that. is that assumption valid now? he dare not fire this guy. >> i'm reluctant to say anything can't happen in these days. we know it would certainly be a shocker if he tried to fire him, but we know that the president has, more than anything, wanted to say, i am not under investigation and felt vindicated in that. now that that turns, it will be interesting to see how the white house responds. >>rosenstein, the acting deputy, and then he wou have to fire everybody who takes his place. he'd have to find somebody willing to be robert bork. >> if the goal of firing comey was to relieve pressure on him with the russia investigation, obviously it didn't work. >> you guys have a tough job because you've got to outdo the

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had they not been there, it would have been a massacre. >> well, the capitol police were at the practice because steve scalise is one of the few lawmakers that receive security details. we'll be right back. and hey, unmanaged depression, don't get too comfortable. we're talking to you, cost inefficiencies and data without insights. and fragmented care- stop getting in the way of patient recovery and pay attention. every single one of you is on our list. for those who won't rest until the world is healthier, neither will we. optum. how well gets done. and you're about in to hit 'send all' on some embarrassing gas. hey, you bought gas-x®! unlike antacids, gas-x ® relieves pressure and bloating fast. huh, crisis averted. just turn on cars.coms on tprice dropswant?

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a long time. then it's a fortune. i told you we had a fortune. get closer to your investment goals with a conversation. we're back with the "hardball" roundtable. ken and ken alone will tell me something i don't know. >> on the same day as the comey hearing, actually just after the hearing concluded, trump summoned 12 of the biggest republican donors to the white house to kind of rally support for his agenda. really shows you the degree to which they're worried about losing support from this critical constituency which they need to fund these outside groups that will push his agenda if he's able to get his agenda back on track. >> playing defense. thank you, ken vogel, shannon pettypiece and astead herndon. when we return, let me finish tonight with the shooting that occurred at today's early morning baseball practice. yes, they practice at dawn here. it's the one thing they take

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let me finish tonight with america's pastime. why? because the shooting today wasn't, isn't about the game the republicans and members of congress were training for -- baseball. the game we like to call america's pastime. it's about the shooting that occurred at today's early morning practice session. i know i'm pushing a point here. of course baseball is what most americans enjoy. 36,000 people attended the phillies/red sox game the other night, but guns are the more important political reality and the pastime for too many. whatever your views on gun rights and gun control, how different we are in this regard. look at the history of violence affecting mainly our presidents, abraham lincoln, james garfield, william mckinley, jack kennedy all shot dead. theodore roosevelt shot but survived. franklin roosevelt shot at and missed. gerald ford, shot at twice. ronald reagan shot and critically wounded. also huey long, martin luther

king, malcolm x, john lenin and more recently gabby giffords. these are off the top of my head. i'm sure there are a number of others i've skipped. go ahead, name any other country like us. just asking. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. all right. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes, and we've got absolutely massive breaking news tonight. "the washington post" reporting that special counsel robert mueller is now investigating the president of the united states for possible obstruction of justice. if true, this report would confirm what was only suggested last week in testimony by fired fbi director james comey. this story breaking in just the last hour or so comes on the heels of an absolutely wrenching day in washington after a gunman targeted republican lawmakers this morning in what appears to have been one of the most