doing things they don't like that the government is not responsive and things are rigged. when you have sentiments like that people believe normal politics don't work. >> i think there is something to it. thank you all. that is all for this evening. the rachel maddow show i will watch right now starts right now. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, chris. appreciate it. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. we are continuing our coverage of what chris was just talking about. the news in alexandria, virginia, congressman steve scalise of louisiana has been shot today by a gunman who fired dozens of rounds into a baseball diamond where republicans and staffers and former staffers were all hold ang early morning practice in advance of tomorrow's annual charity benefit congressional baseball game. congressman steve scalise of louisiana was shot and wounded.

he was reportedly shot in the hip. luckily, one of the other republican members on site at the time is a doctor. congressman brad winstrop of ohio was playing with republicans was at the practice. he is an army surgeon who served in iraq. he was one of the members of congress who was able to personally able to render immediate first-aid to congressman scalise as soon as the gunman was down, as soon as he was shot by police and therefore safe for these other members of congress to get to congressman scalise as he lay grievously wounded in the infield of that baseball diamond. congressman scalise has had surgery today after his gunshot wound. he remains in critical condition tonight. a former congressional staffer, a man named matt mika was also apparently playing with the republicans on their

congressional baseball team. he was also very seriously hurt today. according to mr. mika's family, they say he suffered multiple gunshot wounds in today's attack. mr. mika has undergone surgery and also listed in critical condition this evening. those are very serious wounds and very serious injuries. in addition to those two very seriously injured men, a young staffer for former congressman roger williams shot in the leg today. then there are the law enforcement injuries. as a senior member of the house leadership, congressman scalise had apparently a three-member protective detail from the u.s. capitol police, a detail with him 24/7. 2 of the 3 special agents on his protective detail today, 2 of the 3 people with him at the baseball practice today, two of those officers were hurt as they confronted the gunman, shot at him and tried to stop this

attack in processes. special agent krystal griner was shot in the ankle and airlifted to the hospital. another agent on detail, david bailey, he was also injured. initial report suggests he may have been hit with shrapnel while pursuing and engaging in the gun fight with this suspect. the third special agent in that detail has also been named, special agent henry cabrera, thankfully we can report he was not injured even though two of the other three members of that team were. another republican congressman whose staffer was shot in the leg, congressman roger williams, he was also hurt in this incident today, taken away on a stretcher at one point. i should tell you congressman williams was not shot. his injury was he either apparently broke his ankle or

sprained his ankle badly in the melee once the shooting started. this happened around 7:00 a.m. this morning. this is a remarkable and terrible event, especially given the continuing uncertainty tonight over the fate of the two people including the senior congressmen who were shot and wounded seriously. given the number of shots fired and people injured, it feels like a miracle nobody other than the shooter himself was killed in this incident. we are a country that has a huge unparallel amo of gun . violence and unparalleled frequency of multiple victim mass shooting events. even with that peculiar and bloody american history, even

frankly with another mass shooting happening within hours of this one, today in california a gunman at a u.p.s. facility in san francisco shot and wounded two people and shot and killed three other people and shot and killed himself in front of police officers, even with that competing horde just today, a mind numbing frequency of gun violence in our question and inability to master policies to try to stop it, a mass shooting specifically targeting elected officials, targeting and hitting members of congress? that is a form of american violence that is a different kind of shock to us as a country. we are continuing to cover that story tonight as it continues to develop and particularly we have eyes on local law enforcement as well as the fbiy the agency that has taken the lead on the investigation into this shooting. we have eyes on them in terms of any further statements they will

make tonight, further announcements about the investigation or indeed any questions or requests they may make of the public. the fbi has already issued this formal request for information about the shooter in this attack. this is not a wanted poster because he's already dead. he was apparently shot by police officers on the scene, he later died in the hospital. the fbi has issued this request for information asking the public if anybody knows anything about him, asking the public for any information no matter how minor or small. anybody who may have encountered him, anybody who may know him, they want to know about the shooter and they have identified him as james t. hodgkinson, age 66, resident of illinois. because his target was the congressional baseball practice, because hodgkinson had outspoken political views, there's speculation and concern his political views may have been the motive for his attack.

his social media presence indicates he was very critical of president trump and very critical of republicans generally before president trump, an angry critic in particular of the issue of income inequality. in electoral politics he was apparently a fan and supporter of vermont senator sanders, and reports he may have been a volunteer for the sanders campaign last year although they say they have no record of him. he once submitted a letter to the editor that cited political statistics about what he watched on this tv show because he said he watched this tv show. we went through our correspondence today as soon as we got his name and don't find evidence he ever sent anything to this show or tried to contact us at all. obviously the combination of the target of his attack, the republican members of congress and the online evidence of his

political view, that has driven speculation and concern whether this was a politically motivated shooting today. although we have had a lot of shootings in this country there have not been a lot of politically motivated shootings over the history of this republic. we will wait to see where the evidence leads. the fbi said explicitly today, without any caveat today the motive for this shooting is one of the things they hope to figure out through their investigation. that investigation obviously is just getting under way, part of the reason they're seeking from the public any information anybody has about the shooter. i should tell you tonight we may actually have some interesting information to add as to what is known about the shooter's very recent life. one of the big questions about the shooter is what he was doing in virginia. as i mentioned he is a resident of belleville, illinois, but his neighbors in belleville told reporters they haven't seen him

a couple of months. the timeline here is pretty specific. local police in illinois say they responded to reports of gunfire from the shooter's home in illinois in late march this year. they said they responded to those reports, they determined when the police turned up at his house that the owner of the house, the man who committed today's shootings, was in fact shooting a rival outdoors near his home. they say they cautioned him that day he was too near other houses and too near other people to be shooting right there. they apparently didn't treat it as more serious than that. he had a state firearms id. he was licensed to have the gun he was shooting and they told him he shouldn't be shooting it there. that police response was march 24th of this year. if we put together that police report with what local authorities from the fbi said today, it may be the case that the shooter in today's incident left home in illinois and came

to virginia very shortly after the police came to his house on march 24th. the fbi announced today in virginia that the shooter is believed to have been not in illinois but in and around alexandria, virginia, the site of today's shootings, they said, since march. we know from that local police report on march 24th, he was still in illinois. it would appear that it was sometime after that that he came to virginia. now, nobody quite knows why he came to virginia at that time. what his intentions were, nobody knows all that much about what he has been doing in virginia since then and how that may contribute to our understanding of what happened in this attack and, of course, any potential motive. tonight on this show this hour we will be speaking with a former local official from alexandria, virginia. the reason we booked him tonight is he said he had repeated

contact with the shooter in alexandria in the past few weeks leading up to today's shooting. he spoke with him numerous times. that former local official from alexandria, virginia, will talk us to about what he saw, what this man said to him and what he knows about what this guy was doing in alexandria, virginia before this terrible shooting coming up live this hour. we will also be talking live with a really good reporter live on the scene of the shooting most of the day today. if there is new news this hour about the investigation we will bring it to you. we have eyes on the medical facility where congressman scalise and this former congressional staffer, matt mika are being treated. we will be looking for updates

on their condition. we were told both of them have been through surgery and both successfully made it through surgery today and both tonight considered to be in critical condition. congressman scalise shot at least once, we're told in the hip. matt michael, we're told, shot multiple times. that's all ahead what we're going to be watching for. as we await further information on that tonight, as we continue to cover this remarkable and tragic developing story we've also tonight got standing by live one of the lead "washington post" reporters on a very big breaking news story the "washington post" has just put on its website tonight that concerns the white house. this is the story. this is the headline. adam is standing by to talk to us about this, one of the bylined reporters as well as the national security and justice reporters and ellen and sari

horowitz. the "washington post" is first to report with this story, what a lot of news outlets have been trying to nail down the least couple of weeks. first to report that special counsel, robert mueller, is not just looking narrowly the question whether the trump campaign was involved on the russian attack in the election last year, whether the president himself is involved in an effort to obstruct justice in the investigation to that matter. the "washington post" lead tonight, the special counsel overseeing the investigation into russia's role in the 2016 election is now interviewing senior intelligence officials as part of a widening probe that now includes an examination whether the president attempted to obstruct justice. according to this new report from the post quote the nearly year old fbi investigation,

until recently focused on russian meddling during the campaign and whether there was any coordination between the trump campaign and kremlin in that meddling. the post reports whether the fbi investigate had been focusing on any evidence of financial crimes among trump associates. now, in addition to all that, what the post describes as a major turning point in the investigation, apparently for the first time, this fbi investigation now includes the president's own conduct. it's true fired fbi director james comey just testified under oath that he told president trump that president trump was not personally a target of the fbi's investigation, at least while james comey was still in his job, still running the fbi. according to the post tonight, officials say that changed shortly after comey was fired. and now the "washington post" reports the remarkable news the

president of the united states is the subject of a criminal investigation by the fbi into potential obstruction of justice. joining us now is adam, national security reporter and analyst at the "washington post." thanks for being here. >> thank you. glad to be here. this is a big story you've broken tonight obviously breaking alongside other big important news. for people who haven't had a chance to digest what you have reported, i want to go through a couple basic questions about it if you don't mind. >> sure. >> with what you are describing and reporting tonight, would it be accurate to say this means the fbi has an active open criminal investigation into the president personally, he's the subject of an fbi criminal investigation? >> he's the subject -- the way it was described to us, a file that's been opened on the president for the first time

that is looking at him for potentially obstruction of justice. that doesn't mean that's where mueller will end up after he does these interviews. he could decide after talking to comey and reviewing the evidence and interviewing others what they tell him does not back up bringing any charges or trying to bring any charges for attempted obstruction. this is just he is beginning these interviews, that's what we have learned. >> when you say a file has been opened, that's a term of art when it comes to the fbi. what exactly does that mean? >> it means they're investigating whether or not he attempted to obstruct the investigation. >> okay. >> it's as simple as that. >> opening a file just that's fbi speak for we are now looking into this matter? >> that would be my speak if some of the sources use that terminology. i think the simple ples wst wayk at it, they have been looking into russian meddling and

looking into whether or not there was coordination between the campaign and the russians trump denies and they've been looking into potential financial crimes and what we've learned now is that they are looking at potentially obstruction, which they are investigating the possibility that trump was intending to obstruct the investigation and as part of that investigation we're seeing the first tangible steps the special counsel is progressing along that investigation by interviewing top officials. >> let me ask you a little bit about that timeline there. you're reporting that the fbi started this investigation of the president for possible obstruction of justice within days of comey being fired. >> right. >> if that's true, that would mean when robert mueller came on as special counsel eight days after comey was fired, on may 17th is when he was named that would have meant mueller had

taken over the investigation once it had been started by the fbi the week before. that means it wasn't robert mueller's decision personally to launch this investigation into the president, it would have been started before him, is that correct? >> that's right. that's what we were told by our sources, mueller when he came in, basically absorbed a lot of investigations that were out there that had been started looking at different aspects of the case. all of these are brought together under the special counsel, that way he can decide how to deconflict between the different aspects of the investigations under way and basically decide how to deploy his resources. >> adam, if this was started before mueller got there, can we conclude from that this was an investigation of the president of the united states, a remarkable thing, that it was

started either at the direction of or okays from the deputy director, acting director, andrew mccabe and potentially his supervisor on these matters before mueller got there, the deputy ag, rod rosenstein. >> i'm not sure of the order this was approved. i'd hate to make an error by ascribing to it a particular official in terms of what's required. obviously, what occurred here was you had the firing of comey and comey producing memos to document what occurred. and those, along with other officials -- other information which has come forward, there's a memo produced at the national security agency documenting a phone call that was made also in march that was basically between trump and the head of the nsa, in that call, according to officials and what's documented

in this memo, trump basically asks rogers to publicly go out there and basically push back on the notion there is any evidence of collusion or any evidence of coordination. that is the sort of information that the special counsel right now is trying to review, do these interviews and they have to decide -- he has to decide, how does he want to proceed on this. >> adam, one of the "washington post" reporters who broke this remarkable story tonight the special counsel is investigating the president himself for possible obstruction of justice. >> congratulations on this scoop. >> a pleasure. >> this is one of two obviously big stories happening in the country right now. i will just note that there is the possibility that the president is learning this news tonight from the "washington post." we know that at least as late as april, director comey told the president he was not personally the subject of an fbi investigation. according to the "washington

post" reporting that changed and the president became the subject of an fbi criminal investigation right after he fired james comey. we don't know that and the "washington post" isn't able to report whether or not anybody went to president trump any time since then and told him i have to correct what he told you. since he told you you were in the clear, actually you are the subject of an investigation. we don't know if he was ever informed of that or just reading these headlines tonight, too. hey you've gotta see this. c'mon.

no. alright, see you down there. mmm, fine. okay, what do we got? okay, watch this. do the thing we talked about. what do we say? it's going to be great. watch. remember what we were just saying? go irish! see that? yes! i'm gonna just go back to doing what i was doing.

find your awesome with the xfinity x1 voice remote. >> it has been a remarkable day

in the news, following two major stories, one is an update on the washington scandal we have been covering for weeks now, "washington post" reporting tonight the president is the subject of an fbi criminal investigation into potential obstruction of justice. "washington post" first to report that tonight. that's happening on one track. on a second track we have this ongoing reporting on this remarkable attack on congressional republicans this morning in alexandria, virginia, and they were ambushed by a shooter who fired dozens of rounds. we will have a report from a reporter live at the scene. we have just received in the last couple of minutes, received a detailed update from medstar washington hospital where the

former congressional starve shot multiple times, matt mika where he's being treated and where congressman steve scalise is being treated, the detailed report is about congressman scalise. he was shot, we knew that today, he was shot in the hip. he has survived, been through surgery. we knew that ahead of this broadcast tonight. now we have considerable more detail from the hospital. it's not great news. i will read you exactly what the hospital has just released. quote, congressman steve scalise sustained a single rifle shot to the left hip. the bullet traveled across his pelvis fracturing bones, injuring internal organs and causing severe bleeding. he was transported in shock to medstar washington hospital s t center a level 1 trauma center and went through additional procedures to stop bleeding.

he has received multiple units of blood transfusion. his condition is critical and he will require additional operations. we will provide periodic updates. that's the update from medstar washington hospital center about their treatment of congressman steve scalise. a very situation. amber phillips. she's a reporter at the scene of the shooting. thanks for being with us, i know it's been a very long day. >> reporter: a very long day. i got here this morning to find a community on an otherwise normal wednesday absolutely shaking with the terror on that report of how congressman scalise is doing. that includes the lawmakers seeing them come off this field. they described for me pop pop pop pop pop. everyone running for cover in an open field. the only thing they could find was the dugout, steve scalise got shot in the hip as they

confirmed they saw that happen, he was on the ground bloodied, tried to lay flat but dragged himself from the infield to the outfield to get away from the shooter and senator jeff flake i talked to, said he was in the dugout wanting to help his friend but couldn't do anything, just seeing a trail of blood in his wake. it was really a horrific situation. the lawmakers were completely shaken up. >> given this report we just had from the hospital where congressman scalise has been treated, they're obviously describing serious injuries, a single rival shot. a single shot from a rifle can do incredible damage even if it doesn't kill you, it traveled across his pelvis, injured multiple organs and had to have additional procedure to stop bleeding and will require additional operations, a very serious condition they're describing for the congressman

in critical condition. was it clear to the other congressman just how serious congressman scalise's injuries were? >> reporter: i think not this serious. they gave no indication to me he had lost so much blood it caused multiple blood transfusions. they did know he was very seriously wounded. the lawmakers said they ran up -- one of them is a doctor from ohio. they ran up to scalise after the gunman was knocked down. they started trying to cutaway his uniform. senator jeff flake was using his hands to staunch the bleeding. someone brought over gauze. they said they found the bullet hole going in the hip but couldn't find the bullet, the exit side of the other hip. he was conscious, asking for water, clearly in a lot of pain they told me, but i don't think they knew it was this serious

more than 12, 13 hours later he would still be in the hospital gravely wounded with a lot of procedures and a lot of recovery left to go. >> still in critical condition. just a remarkable tragic story, amber phillips covering it all day with the "washington post." thank you. i know it's been a very very long day. thanks for being with us tonight. coming up, we will be talking with somebody an interesting witness given that the fbi has now put out a request to the public in general for information for anybody who knows anything about the shooter in this case. the shooter has been identified by the fbi. he is deceased, appears to have been shot by police at the scene of this attack and died today in hospital. the witness we will talk to next is actually the former mayor of alexandria, virginia, he says in the weeks leading up to today's shooting he had multiple and extensive contacts with the man

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the fbi earlier today made a general request to the public for information about the shooter who shot at republicans at baseball field in alexandria, virginia. she shooter is deceased, identified by the fbi as james t. hodgkinson, a 66-year-old

illinois resident. they're asking for information about him or anybody who might have known him and asked or talked to him in recent months. the shooting happened in alexandria, virginia, but he is not from there, from belleville, illinois, 800 miles to the west, an outside suburb of st. louis. he is believed to have been in virginia in the alexandria area since sometime in march, possibly living out of a cargo van on a local alexandria street by the baseball field also next to the local ymca. the alexandria ymca is so close to the ball field a bullet from today's attack went in one of the gym's windows of the swimming pool. and one person remembered seeing

the suspect and talking to him frequently just about every morning in the recent weeks. joining us is the former mayor of virginia. he works out at the y and said he had several conversations with that suspect in recent weeks. thank you for being here. >> glad to be with you. >> how did you recognize this manu encountered at the local y might have been the shooter in "today's take"? >> i was on the y this morning to do my daily workout from monday through friday. prior to leaving home five minutes before i started getting text messages from folks saying, are you all right? i said, why? what's wrong. there's a shooting incident near the area of the y. i got on my phone and called the y and they said they're on lockdown. a couple hours later i get a

text message from one of the staff members informing me that -- he said you and i know the killer. i was shocked so i called them. i said, what do you mean? he said, he's the guy that's been here every morning on his laptop. more than a month and half ago i encountered him as a new member of the y. as i talked to him citizens said, hey, mayor, we miss you. he said, can i talk to you about a problem i have? and the next day he approached, are you really the mayor? i said, yes. we got to know each other from that point. where are good places to dine and eat in the area? and i need to find a job, can you help me find a job? i helped him find the vacancy position and i e-mailed him a

job for a home inspector. everyday routinely i would encounter him having his coffee on the laptop, sit at the table next to him and be doing my thing on my iphone and coffee and occasionally encountered him coming out of the sauna but never witnessed him physically working out. i concluded this is odd this gentleman is here everyday and seems like a loner and in the locker room last week when his gym bag was wide open when he was in the shower area, it looked like all his personal belongings and clothes and books were in his gym bag, which is unusual. in my own mind i concluded, maybe he is someone that's homeless. never approached him to talk about it. we never got into heated political conversations other than the fact there's a tv when you walk in the main entrance of the y. other folks including myself, we

would be having conversations about whether the president was doing or whether it was the right thing he was doing and congress needs to get their act together and start working on behalf of the citizens. he never chimed in pro or con other than to simply say, i agree. i agree. i've been telling folks all day, he seemed calm very well organized. he spoke very well. he was very respectable. he a couple weeks ago started bringing donuts and cookies into the y for others to share, as they were walking by. my conclusion was this was someone that was troubled. something was certainly burning and blowing on the inside of him. upon arriving on the scene this morning my conclusion not

knowing it was him this apparently was a targeted event simply because the congressional team has played on this field probably several times a month for the last four or five years and never encountered any problems or circumstances. then i learned he was in the y this morning briefly and as he -- after he left, within a couple minutes, that's when everyone started hearing gunfire. >> mr. mayor, when you say the team has used that field frequently, was it known specifically that was where the republicans practiced? obviously we're looking into motive here whatever the attack was driven by, people were talking about his political views and political expressions to try too figure out if this was a political motivated attack on republicans specifically. was that widely known or ever discussed? >> not with me. i don't think he ever had that conversation with me because he knew i'm not only the former mayor, but very -- well placed

in the community. probably didn't want to have that conversation with me. but he did have it with, i understand some other staff folks at the y. he inquired about who this team was and he said, are they democrats or republicans? they said, well, they're republicans. again, whatever his anger and frustration was, he strategized today was the opportune time to do what he needed to do. >> one last question for you. obviously the fbi has put out this statement to the public appealing to people who might have information about him. i assume you expect you will be speaking with either local law enforcement or the fbi about your encounters with him? >> i do expect that. not today, i've been doing interviews since maybe 11:00 a.m. but i would expect them to be making contact with me tomorrow. i know they were talking with ymca staff as well. >> bill euille, the former mayor

of alexandria, v.a. and remarkably had conversations with this man before he carried out these attacks today. thank you very much. >> you're welcome. >> we have much more to come tonight after what has been an unbelievable news day. stay with us. ahh. where are mom and dad? 'saved money on motorcycle insurance with geico! goin' up the country. love mom and dad' i'm takin' a nap. dude, you just we up! ♪ ♪ i'm goin' up the country, baby don't you wanna go? ♪ ♪ i'm goin' up the country, baby don't you wanna go? ♪

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charges in the flint water crisis. involuntary manslaughter charges against high ranking state officials including the head of the health department. the state's -- dan represents flint and we planned to talk to him. i have to tell you congressman kildee is also coming tonight straight from a unity dinner held in washington tonight in the wake of today's shooting. congressional republicans targeted in an ambushed shooting today at their baseball team practice in alexandria, virginia. congressman kildee playing for the democrats congressional team

in playing tomorrow and despite today's shooting, it has not been cancelled. congressman joining us from washington, d.c. thanks for being with us today. i know it's been a difficult day. >> thank you, rachel. it has been a difficult day. >> let me get your reaction to the shooting today. we just got this serious news from the medstar washington hospital center about congressman scalise's condition, remains critical, sounds like he was very seriously hurt today shot in the hip in this attack. let me get your overall response. >> we're stunned and our hearts go out to steve and his family. we fight about the issues but we're people that work together. i see steve everyday. the republican members at that practice, many of them are really good friends of mine. so all the partisanship and

differences is completely meaningless in a moment like this. we are really pulling for our friends and hope they will be okay. >> the decision was made, this symbolic and inspiring decision that the game should go on, that an attack like this shouldn't stop what is after all a good fair play exercise in partisanship that is the congressional baseball game, a charity event. you play for the democrats. how do you feel about the fact that the game is going to go ahead tomorrow? it seems like it's sort of a nice thing but also it's going to be difficult. >> it will be hard but hard for a good reason. we have to show everybody that we can come together, that we can still pull together and do this event to raise money for charity. this game means more than just a single game. throughout the whole year, it's one of those things that allows us to talk to one another than

our differences. we tease one another about the game. i think it's really important we demonstrate to the country and the rest of the world that we're not going to let something like this come between us and one another, come between us and doing some good in a way that's unifying. i think in some ways this year's game is more important than any other game we ever played. >> congressman kildee, you are not just any member of congress when it comes to important stuff in the american news. your district, flint, michigan has been going through this incredible flint crisis and this shooting happens when we have the news of the president being the subject of an fbi criminal investigation and the "washington post" reporting tonight and comes on the same day you and your constituents getting the news there will be serious state charges brought against a number of high ranking officials because of the flint

water crisis and the decision made that ultimately ended up poisoning flint. i have to ask you your reaction to those criminal charges being filed today? >> it is comes in lots of different forms for the people of flint. one of the ways that we see justice is when people who did this to flint are held responsible for what they did, but it doesn't make things better for the people. so obviously we want to see this. i will not prejudge the results of these charges. but it's somewhat comforting to know that the system works. that when you see a state government do something as bad as they did to the city of flint, that individuals will be held accountable for it. but we need more. we need other forms of justice. well need people to make it right. we need the state government to step up and make it right. i've got to say, rachel, the people of flint owe you a great debt of gratitude. you were one of the very first people to bring attention to this. without national attention, i'm

not sure that this day would have ever come or any other help we've been able to get. for that i'm personally grateful to you. >> that's nice to say. i didn't -- the only reason i was able to cover it was because of the activism by people in your district and the way people were able to be so articulate and scream so loud about what was happening so that we couldn't help but notice. congressman dan kildee, you've been through a lot. thanks for your time tonight. >> thanks, rachel. a huge news day. i'm going bring into our conversation next an expert to talk about this big breaking news at the federal level today. the special counsel is according to "the washington post," they have opened a criminal investigation into the president of the united states. president trump now personally being investigated for possible criminal obstruction of justice. this is almost unprecedented in american history. expert opinion on what that means exactly next. stay with us. a millie dresselhaus doll! happy birthday, sweetie! oh, millies. trick or treat!

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ed. in addition to the shooting today in alexandria, virginia, apparently targeting republican members of congress while they were at their congressional baseball practice at a public park, we are still absorbing this additional remarkable news story tonight from "the washington post." the report that special counsel robert mueller is now investigating the president himself for possible obstruction of justice. "the new york times" has now reported their own slightly different version of this. "the new york times" headline which is just posted is mueller seeks to talk to intelligence officials, hinting at inquiry of trump.

the times is fleshing out the fact that mueller has requested interviews with three high-ranking or former intelligence officials, people who were not involved with the trump campaign. the times describing this as an indication that he will investigate whether trump obstructed justice. the post is reporting that he is investigating trump for that. the times is reporting that it is indicated that he is likely doing that. so there is a slight shade in difference between the two papers. the times, though, also reports that the mueller investigation has asked the nsa for documents and notes related to the nsa's interaction with the white house as part of the russia investigation. joining us for some perspective on this is msnbc chief legal correspondent ari melber. ari, thank you for this. i appreciate you being here. >> sure. >> i should say first that the president's personal lawyer has put out a statement in response to "the washington post" report saying that this is an outrageous, inexcusable and

illegal fbi leak of information. is what "the washington post" reported necessarily an fbi leak of information? is that the only place this information could have come from? >> absolutely not. a lot of the material seems to suggest that people approached by the investigation may be leaking. and that would be understandable if the intelligence agency's leadership is being contacted. the headline here is stark. the president of the united states is under criminal investigation for his conduct in office. there has been a lot of reporting about what happened during the campaign. this touches that and extends beyond it. >> in terms of these intelligence officials who are being queried now by the mueller investigation, the nsa director, admiral rogers, it's the recently departed deputy director of the get back to him in a second and it's dan coats, who is the director of national intelligence. the reason that that recently departed deputy director of the nsa is apparently being

investigated is reportedly he is the one who wrote up an nsa memo describing the interacts that the nsa director had had with the president about whether or not he should get involved in that fbi investigation. does that tell us that the mueller investigation is basically trying to corroborate whether the president used other officials to try to block that investigation? >> it certainly suggests that is of investigative interest, to use the term of art. and it suggests that those individuals were potentially memorializing things for some of the same potential reasons that jim comey outlined under oath. they have lawyers. they have a general counsel in every agency, and they have strict rules. particularly because the foreign intelligence agencies know they're not supposed to be involved on the home front. all this discussion about surveillance and intercepted communications. they try to stay out of americans' rights and certainly the fbi's inquiries. >> okay. ari, on a legal -- as a legal matter, one of the things that has been raised as we've seen congressional investigations unspool, and different trump

administration officials get called to testify is there are these questions as to whether or not the white house will try to stop those officials from appearing, whether the white house will try to block those officials from talking about specific things, communications with the president in particular. it's a different standard when it comes to talking to investigators who are looking into a potential criminal matter, right? you can't assert executive privilege to stop somebody from speaking to criminal investigators. >> the supreme court press on this is united states versus nixon. >> ah. >> it regards president nixon's asoefrgs wh assertion of what he called an absolute executive privilege. the supreme court rejected that. the area where it is the weakest if you will is in the area of a criminal inquiry because then those normal interests that are broad and wide. no one doubts national security secrecy is a national power. but this is the precedent when there are criminal or confidential inquiries because

those can trump even the president's power in that arena. i would also note the other huge implication here is the deputy attorney general overseeing this inquiry. >> rod rosenstein. >> rod rosenstein is according to the evidence we have very likely a witness to what we can confirm tonight what we're being -- seeing reported tonight in the firing. he may have to recuse. >> so if -- i'm sorry to interrupt you there with my exclamation of surprise. but you're saying if mueller's investigating trump for potential obstruction of justice in his firing of comey, if rosenstein should reasonably be expected to be called as a witness for that part of the investigation, he can't oversee the mueller investigation at all. he would have to recuse that would put rachel brand in charge of overseeing the investigation? number three person at doj? >> exactly. and even according to the white house's official story, the main people involved in the story of james comey are president trump and rod rosenstein. >> msnbc chief legal