the fake media is trying to silence us, but we will not let them. because the people know the truth. the fake media tried to stop us from going to the white house, but i'm president and they're not. >> good morning, and welcome to "am joy." not even an event to honor military veterans is safe. his speech at the kennedy center event came the same day trump stepped up his twitter feud with the co-hosts of "morning joe,"

tweeting, crazy joe score borough and dumb as a rock mika are not bad people but their low rated show is dominated by their msnbc bosses. too bad. his tirade which again thursday with ugly personal attacks against mika seems to be yet another low for a president who constantly seems to be redefining rock bottom. mika and joe summed up what many thought when they wrote in an op-ed for "the washington post" under the headline donald trump is not well. and they made this observation on their show friday. >> we have friends inside the white house that have told us over the past month they're getting more concerned about his emotional state. the guy that's in the white house now is not the guy we knew two years ago. >> not even close. >> now some democrats are going even further. according to yahoo! investigate at this reporter michael isikoff, $25 hou25 house democrt

to declare the president incapacitated and under the 25th amendment force him out of office. why the urgency now? has donald trump suddenly taken a turn for the worse or is his offensive behavior just more of the same old trump that we've heard many, many times before? >> i'm automatically attracted to beautiful women. i just start kissing them. it's like a magnet. and when you're a star, they let you do it. you can do anything. >> whatever you want. >> grab them by the [mute]. >> when mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. they're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime. they're rapists. >> she gets out and starts asking me all sorts of ridiculous questions. and you could see there was blood coming out of her eyes, blood coming out of her -- wherever. >> written by a nice reporter. now the poor guy, you got to see this guy, ah, i don't know what i said, ah, i don't remember. >> so we talk about the media

and by the way, some of the media is terrific, but most of it, 75%, is absolutely dishonest, absolute scum. >> joining me now is frank rich, writer at large for new york magazine and author of the latest cover story "how a presidency ends." this is a great piece by the way, frank rich. >> thank you. >> really, really, really, really, good. i think everyone should take the time out to read it. one of the things it did, i watched, i was telling you in the break, i just watched "get me roger stone." when you watch that and read this together they sort of give you a companion understanding of the era that we're rerunning, almost like we're rerunning the nixon era. this is donald trump's tweet this morning against cnn. here it is. he tweeted, you see that? that is donald trump when he was a character on tv performing on wwe. and he's retweeted a gif of

himself doing that, and the tweet simply says, fraud news cnn fnn which means fox news network. what is that? >> it's insanity, it really is. obviously it's an attempt that might be successful to drum up violence against journalists which is something he's been doing right along. and by the way, this whole thing that he's a different person than he was two years ago, no, he's the same person. it's just now that's toxically combined with power and a 24/7 platform. >> donald trump has defended his sort of lack of dignity on social media. he tweets ridiculous things on social media that any other president if you put that in a statement people would think the person was losing their mind. he tweeted, my use of social media is not presidential, it's modern day presidential. he gets away with it. >> he doesn't even know what really modern media is and

apparently doesn't really know how to e-mail so he's discovered this one toy that, as bill maher keeps pointing out, he probably uses in the toilet and plays it fairly well. that's his idea of social media and someone who's told him that line. steve bannon or someone. but here's the thing. this guy is now going to meet with vladimir putin, who is either an american adversary or his boss, but either way, this is a really crucial moment for this country. forget about even washington and health care and all of that, we have this guy going to talk to putin. >> that is the thing, donald trump is two things. he's sort of funny, right, and you can sort of read his tweets as entertaining and amusing and sort of weird and laugh at it but there's also kind of funny scary because even though the presidency doesn't weird as much power as most americans think it

does but there's a lot of damage he can do. should americans be laughing at these tweets or afraid? >> you shouldn't laugh at violence. in this pressure cooker, in this violent america of the moment and this politically angry, that's not funny. and the truth is, you're absolutely right, his power is limited. witness the fact that he's gotten nothing done in washington, but it isn't limited on the foreign stage and in foreign policy and he is leaving our shores to do god knows what. >> former -- richard clarke who is the famous hair on fire guy who tried to warn george w. bush about 9/11 to no avail was on bill maher on friday night and this is what he said about his fears about donald trump. >> the president's going to meet with putin next week. advisers will not even say that he's going to bring this up. >> no, he won't. >> because he was the beneficiary. >> of course. that's why he's not investigating it and doing all

the things we need to do to make sure it doesn't happen again. this is the 21st century equivalent of having marines land on the jersey shore. they invaded our country, they invaded our political system and they won, and he doesn't care because he won. >> the razor explanation, presuming donald trump has the same love of country that anyone else would is that donald trump benefitted from what the russians did before and wouldn't mind benefitting from it again. is that a fair assumption? >> we have to wonder that this commission that he's created which i know you're talking about later is an instrument of the russian government to try to affect, for all we know, the 2018 and 2020 elections. this may be part of the process. for all we know, if i may be slightly bold, this might be what he and putin are talking about, not the past. >> even if it's just on his own, if you look at the combination of traits that you see in donald

trump, this win at all costs mentality that doesn't matter how you win as long as you win, you're willing to accept russian intervention if it helps you win, it feels like you're willing to suppress lots and lots of votes, millions and millions of votes and violate the rights of millions of americans as long as you win. are we setting ourselves up for a 2020 that could be even scarier and watergate on triple amounts of steroids in 2016? >> maybe but we don't know yet. that's a long time away and my theory is that trump is not going to last that long. >> that's a point i want to stop you on. in this piece which i highly recommend, watergate didn't become watergate overnight. you walk the readers through the timeline about the public opinion of people in regards to nixon and how long they hung on. >> in july of 1973 which is now 13 months after the watergate break-in, by that point nixon's attorney general and campaign manager john mitchell had been

indicted. there had been the famous two months of live televised watergate senate hearings led by sam irvin that most of the country watched, 71% of the country watched. woodward and burnstein reported that the watergate break-in was just a tiny fraction of an enormous criminal operation by the white house. as people went away that summer, this time in 1973, 22% of the country thought that nixon should be removed from office. >> wow. >> and constituents were saying they were tired of watergate. his approval rating was in the upper 30s, sort of where trump is now. >> nixon employed the same tactics, going to the well of white working class voters, but also his take on the media, i want to play a sound bite from october of 1973, at the height of watergate. this is richard nixon talking about the press. >> i have never heard or seen such outrageous, vicious, distorted reporting in 27 years

of public life. i'm not blaming anybody for that. perhaps what happened is that what we did brought it about, and therefore, the media decided that they would have to take that on. >> at least he did it with more style. >> that's what i was thinking too. >> but it was exactly the same line. the media is the enemy. he used to tell his aides to write that on the black board, the media is the enemy. they were trying to steal an election that he had won in 1972 and reverse the thing. he also, every time he denied a watergate story, he said there are four or five investigations that prove i'm exaggerated. >> exonerated. from that point to when he resigned was another 13 months. what made the difference when he did resign, republicans finally, not brave republican leaders, they didn't exist then any more

than now, but congressmen scared for their lives as the midterms approach. >> all about self-preservation. be patient because they're sort of spinelessness will turn to outright terror when they think it will impair their right to get re-elected. >> this time next year. >> frank rich, always a treat to talk to you. >> thank you. up next, republicans are out this morning trying to put lipstick on that little piggy we call trump care. that's next. we mean how can we help? we mean what can we do? we mean it's our turn. to do our part. to serve you, for all you've done to serve us. ♪

we're turning back the tide of all of the rules and regulations that were put in place previously that decreased choices, that increased costs. all of those things, if you look at it in its totality, and nobody is looking at it in its totality, we will bring down premiums, increase coverage and increase choices and i believe

will increase the quality of care provided in this nation. >> republican officials flooded the airwaves this morning with basically this message, obamacare must be repealed, and don't worry, the gop is on it. after a week in which senate majority leader mitch mcconnell had to pull his health care bill, then set a friday deadline for a revised bill which has now passed with no compromise in sight and when he's even faced calls from the tweeter in chief to adopt an unworkable and unwise repeal now and replace at some point later in the future strategy, what republicans might be feeling is closer to what mcconnell told reporters on friday, quote, it's not easy making america great, is it? first, let's re-establish for the panel here where we are in terms of the majority of americans' views on the health care bill. 45% opposite the bill in the latest poll.

40% said they don't know enough about the bill to make a decision. 12% support the bill. we'll put that up in a minute. that is just to re-establish the baseline -- there it is. so that is where we are with the bill. i'm going to go to you first on this, perry bacon jr. this is the latest sales pitch that's being made for the people whose marquee is repeal obamacare and replace it with trumpcare. repeal obamacare. this is what white house aide mark short has said, and this is i think what he said on friday, that repeal and replace can actually be bipartisan. had take a listen. >> if the replacement part of too difficult for republicans to come together, let's go back and take care of the first step and repeal. even those 49, there's another member, todd young from indiana, who when he was in the house voted for the bill too. so you have 50 members on record having voted for that recently, so that's an option.

at that point if you've repealed it, you can come back with a replacement effort that could be more partisan. >> perry, does that make sense to you, that somehow democrats would get on board with a full repeal of obamacare followed by a replacement determined by the 50 republicans that control the votes in the senate? >> what they're really laying out is you have a repeal and then you basically have like a ticking clock where in two years or in one year all of obamacare goes away. it's basically sort of like a debt ceiling threat. and then you bring democrats to the table that way. it's odd because in december paul ryan proposed this very tactic and donald trump said no, that's a bad idea. that seems unpopular, let's not do it that way. it was very odd on friday i thought for donald trump to say never mind, let's try this repeal. this repeal and delay idea will be even more unpopular than the

actual bill. but yes, that's what the idea is here. >> it's interesting that they're selling it jamal because mcconnell seemed to rule out on friday that that was not going to happen. not only was that not going to happen but he's already ruled out working with democrats in bipartisanship except as in an emergency, like pull pin in case of emergency measure. this is mitch mcconnell back in february on working with democrats at the time that they were in full repeal mode. >> it's clear that in the early months it's going to be a republicans-only exercise. we don't expect any democratic cooperation on the replacement of obamacare. we don't expect any democratic cooperation on tax reform. either republicans will agree and change the status quo or the markets will continue to collapse and we'll have to sit down with senator schumer. >> the markets are not in collapse. the individual market is having problems in about 38 counties because republicans won't promise to fund the subsidies that pay for people's insurance.

republicans are killing the market for individual insurance buyers. the market is not in collapse, remember that, viewers, no matter how many times republicans say that to you. is that a reality that eventually if republicans continue to refuse to fund the markets then they really will collapse because of what republicans are doing and they'll have no choice but to go to democrats and say let's do a bailout of the insurance industry? >> they'll have no choice but to go to democrats because at the end of the day the president and republicans are in charge of everything in washington. the american people don't pay a lot of attention to this but they know who's in charge. if something is wrong, you tend to go to the person in charge to fix it. the problem with what mcconnell's approach is now or trump's approach which is saying let's repeal it now and deal with the replace later, is that who trusts that that will happen. it just won't happen. >> nobody trusts that will

happen. i don't think anybody believes it. they'll be happy they repealed it and that will be the end of the story. >> we'll all be sitting around figuring it out. >> the free market will be working and they'll be choosing to be uninsured, according to republicans. teenag tara, tom price which is the health and human services secretary which is attempting to sell this idea that not having insurance does not mean that you don't get health care, he's been floating these vague ideas for a long time, including back when president obama talked to republicans about what he wanted to do. this is in 2010. this is the president going before republican members of congress to talk about health care, and tom price asked him a question. take a look. >> you can't structure a bill where suddenly 30 million people have coverage and it costs nothing.

>> i understand. we're not debating this bill, but what should we tell our constituents who know that we've offered these solutions and yet hear from the administration that we have offered nothing? >> let me -- i'm using this as a specific example so let me answer your question. you asked a question, i want to answer it. it's not enough if you say, for example, that we've offered a health care plan and i look up, this is just under the section that you just provided me or the book that you just provided me, summary of gop health care reform bill. the gop plan will lower health care premiums for american families and small businesses, addressing america's number one priority for health reform. i mean, that's an idea that we all embrace. but specifically, it's got to work.

>> tara, their idea at the time was lower premiums. >> right. ta-da. >> i mean, the idea that these two parties who are at these poles being able to negotiate anything, do you think that's realistic? >> first let me point out something very obvious here. that bite that you just played tells the entire story. why is there no bite like that now? because it does not exist. because democrats have not been included in the process. that bite shows that president obama and democrats included republicans in the process. republicans opted to instead attack what the president was trying to do and attack the legislation and sabotage the legislation, but they had every opportunity. and guess what, that bite, there are tons of other ones just like that because republicans were included in the process and chose not to participate. >> so was the public. i mean, town hall after town

hall, even the president holding town halls, explaining the health care bill. 161 amendments. i don't know if they're all republican amendments but more than 100 included in a bill but then those same republicans who offered the amendments did not vote for the bill. van, i want to bring you into this discussion. one of the reasons we wanted to talk to you and pinched you from ""politics nation"" this morning was that you wrote a fascinating take on why it's so hard for this country to come to agreement on having universal health care and it is a take i had not heard anywhere else and even the link to dr. king's fights for civil rights. can you summarize that for us? >> yeah. so what i wrote about there was how the history of health care in america is intricately linked to civil rights. so the reason why our system is the way it is, a private-based system that doesn't cover everybody and especially as the rest of the world moves more and

more towards universal health care, think about the last century of american politics. that system of universal care really has worked with, say, jim crowe america. i think public officials say no. what i wrote about there was how the voices for universal health care led to medicare and medicaid, led to obamacare eventually. they all came out of the civil rights movement, they came out of black activism and progressive activism. so you look at the response to obamacare, you look at sort of the over the last 50 years the response against medicaid, those have all had some sort of racial components to them. so it's a push and pull, a back and forth over the last 50 years. >> and it is fascinating, jamal, that you did have this -- rush limbaugh originally calling obamacare reparations. there's been a barely coated

resistance to expansion of medicaid that has exactly what van is discussing, that kind of tinge to it. >> you think about the south after the desegregation of schools. white southerners were willing to take their children out of school to keep them from having to go to school with black people or create these academies, separate sort of economically advantaged academies for white children to go to. so you see this dwern ens of do we take care of everyone or those who are disenfranchised. >> i want to quickly play a change just in one person. this is mitch mcconnell back in 1990, his re-election ad taugoug the need to cover all kentuckiens with health care. listen. >> when i was a child and my dad was in world war ii, i got polio. i recovered but my family almost went broke. today, too many families can't get decent, affordable health care. that's why i've introduced a bill to make sure health care is available to all kentucky

families, hold down skyrocketing costs and provide long-term care. >> this is mitch mcconnell on friday saying that coverage is not care. take a listen. >> coverage is not the same as care. if you think coverage is the most important thing, i can see why a single-payer system would be attractive to you. but coverage doesn't equal care. >> van, how do you frame that change? >> it's an interesting change. i think most people on health policy will tell you the only way to get people care is with coverage. it seems to be a pretty obvious conclusion there. but i think it's different when you're talking about when you're beholdened directly to the people of your state when you're talking about a state that doesn't have a lot of the same demographic challenges as, say, expanding in texas. things got a little bit different over the last 20 years or so.

yeah, it's just interesting watching the flip-flop here. >> different exactly the way you think. perry bacon jr., kentucky native on the panel as fate would have it. how do you frame that change just in the way mitch mcconnell and the way kentucky has reacted to the idea of universal health care? >> my sense is that if you think about this is a health care bill that was basically written by mitt romney, was expanded by mitt romney nationally. so republicans are not really passing -- because universal health care became a democratic thing, obamacare did it, now we're seeing basically a health care but it's not really a health care bill. it's really a bill that rolls back the welfare state. it's really a bill that has tax cuts. if you think about the planned parenthood, it's a bill to really try to cut down on abortions. those are the three ideas, anti-tax, anti-abortion, anti-welfare. this is not a health care bill. it achieves other republican goals but not really health care. that's why mitch mcconnell is accurately downplaying the health care achievements in the

bill because they don't really have any. >> joy, this is incredibly important to remember what perry just said. the health care marketplace was a conservative idea that started in the heritage foundation, made its way to massachusetts and remember nobody has a card that says obamacare. the health care marketplace advises private insurance for americans to get. important to remember. >> tara, last word. >> i think an important point that needs to be made and i want to emphasize that, i say it all the time. the affordable care act is designed to improve the quality of health care that people receive. a lot of that was done through the department of health that tom price now runs, but much of that was done through regulation, through various different regulatory processes. and so i think that people forget that, yes, there is this side and design to provide financial support for people to purchase care but there's a whole other side of the bill that is specifically designed to improve outcomes, which in this country, considering that we're a developed nation, we do not have the best outcomes.

we have the most infant mortality of any developed country, so that -- the affordable care act is targeting those things and democrats need to continue to also emphasize that when they talk about it. that's the other side and that's the most important side. >> and it's even higher before we had broad-based health care like medicare and medicaid, our infant mortality rate and elderly survival rate were even worse. hello, hello, hello, this seems obvious. tara, thank you very much. perry bacon jr., and van newkirk, thank you very much. trump whisperer roger stone is set to face the house intelligence committee. more on the man who may be the architect of trump's presidential ride next. ♪

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even if donald trump loses, i still win because the stone brand has been front and center, and my brand of politics have finally come into their own. cnn, msnbc, they're now the fringe. alt-right communications, we are the mainstream. >> did trump really believe that obama was not born in the united states? does roger stone really believe that bill clinton raped all these women? you know, it doesn't matter to them, is more the point. for them, there are no boundaries, anything goes. >> the netflix documentary "get me roger stone" takes viewers inside the tumultuous and alarming rise of roger stone, one of trump's associates currently under the microscope of investigation. the filmmakers spent five years following roger stone to create this documentary. dylan bank, morgan peckman and daniel demorrow joins me now.

thank you guys. >> thank you. >> wow, what a film. first of all, it's really great. kudos to you for managing to spend five years following this person around. i'll ask you sort of what may sound like a not very nice question but i'll start with you, morgan. did you did tekt in this person who we saw literally giddy at the prospect of being evil, did you detect any conscience in roger stone? >> roger is a very complex person. it's easy to portray him as the mustache twirling villain. >> but he wants to be that. >> he says it's better to know infamous than never to be famous at all. but there is also actually a human side of roger. >> where was that in the film? >> where he's with his wife and daughter and granddaughter. >> you mean the wife who he was in a scandal and he was accusing bill clinton of being bad

morally but he was a swinger. >> that is true. >> one of the things that struck me about the documentary is that it puts together the connections between people we now know as characters in the trump drama. not only donald trump himself who's known roger stone for a long time but also paul manafort who they were in a company together. talk to me about the company that these men started with charles black. >> black, mon affoanafort and a water -- >> lee waatwater. >> yes. they had a transformative lobbying group that really changed washington and one of the things that they did was they went out into foreign countries and lobbied for foreign countries because at the time they were upset with russia for meddling in international elections. >> the countries they picked, we're talking the congo, ferdinand marcos. why did they specifically target those?

greed? >> many people would say it was certainly greed that got them there. roger says he's proud of it because he made a lot of money. but one of the other things is that they were anti-communist. anything anti-communist at the time in the reagan administration and the congress got the rubber stamp and they were more than happy to overlook any genocide or other accusations because there was a great pay check in it. >> i want to put a pin on this anti-communist thing because there was an interesting piece that wasn't in the film but you guys touched a little bit on the relationship with donald trump in the '80s. in 1987 donald trump took out ads in "the new york times" and a bunch of other major newspapers in which he asserted essentially that ronald reagan was weak on foreign policy and that he was wrong on the soviet union. it was titled, there's nothing wrong with america's foreign policy that a little back bone can't cure. trump attacked american foreign policy after trump visited the

soviet union. he talks about japan, et cetera. but roger stone set up these ad buys in all these major newspapers and since that point in the '80s he wanted donald trump to run for president. why did he specifically want trump? >> this is trump's first foray into politics in '87 and roger had been pushing him for years prior to that, really putting the idea in his head that he can be president. i think in trump he saw charisma and name profile and sort of this outsider image that he could cultivate and sell to the public even though he was kind of the ultimate insider, roger stone himself. he knew that he could sell this kind of outsider image to businessmen who have business acumen. >> it's interesting to me that roger stone who has a nixon tattoo on his back, on his body, seems to believe that he can reinvent and revief the nixon

era. he appeals to the common man, white conservative who's afraid that the country is falling into law and order and the brown people are coming for them. donald trump appeals to the same people. but why does he see donald trump who is very different from nixon, very much more flamboyant but sort of sees him as nixon 2.0, review itight? >> there are some other commonalties. they were both anti-establishment. trump comes from queens. nixon felt like an outsider even in washington and there was a lot of resentment against the people that they felt were keeping them down from realizing their full potential. but roger to his credit, 29 years before trump's election saw the elements that he felt could translate into the presidency. what's interesting about roger's relationship with nixon is, though he was the youngest person called before the watergate grand jury when he was all of 19. >> roger stone was. >> roger stone was. when he really develops this

relationship with nixon is after nixon has been thrown out of the presidency. what type of person gravitates to the post-disgraced nixon? that's really an amazing thing. nixon and roy cohn, two of the most infamous people in american politics are roger's mentors. >> talk about roy cohn. >> he's in many ways what roger stone has been aprioring to be. he was responsible in many ways for the red scare in the mccarthy hearings back in the day. one thing we learned from roger, like roy cohn and roger has done, there's actually a great history and series of protege/master relationships going all the way back. you mentioned kninix on, they w pulling things that worked before. it was a matter of modernizing it which we've seen what modernizing means which is twitter. >> one of them was demonstrated during the election where roger stone seemed to have this

amazing ability to predict bad things. he tweets in august, trust me, it will soon be podesta's time in the barrel. wednesday, hillary clinton is d done, wikileaks, et cetera. he called a reporter a stupid b-i-t-c-h, blah, blah, blah. he's a vile guy but dirty tricks work is what he's learned over time. >> that's kind of his philosophy. he has his set of rules, you know, which basically translate to trump's philosophy. it's just a win at all costs mentality. with those tweets, that's what he'll be testifying about. that's what he's going to be asked, and what's kind of interesting though to point out is that he had also completely

erroneous tweets about when hillary clinton was going to dump something and what the substance was going to be. >> he's not always right but i don't think he cares. it is a fascinating documentary. dylan bank, morgan peckman and daniel demorrow, i proannounced all those names right. i'm proud. it's a great documentary. coming up, the reporter who faced off with sarah huckabee sanders after the break. i no longer live with the uncertainties of hep c. wondering, what if?

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this is publicly available information, the commission is only requesting what any person on the street in california can walk into a county election office and get. why not look at the data. it's publicly available data and put the cards on the table and show the american public how

significant the issue is. it's just fact-finding. >> donald trump's election integrity commission this week asked each state to submit detailed information on their registered voters, including party affiliation, voting history with addresses and partial social security numbers. the administration says it is only looking for publicly available information as you just heard. as of saturday, according to "the washington post," 36 states and district of columbia said they won't comply or will partially comply with the request. winner of the award for saltiest response goes to mississippi republican secretary of state who said they can go jump in the gulf of mexico. joining me, author of "give us the ballot" and "the new york times" chris, the man behind trump voter obsession. yesterday, donald trump tweeted the following. numerous states refuse to give information to the distinguished voter fraud panel.

what are they trying to hide? >> they're trying to hide data that's not publicly available despite what chris says. trump administration is trying to get your social security number, who you voted for, your military history, your criminal history, all of which is a precursor to a massive nationwide voter suppression effort. >> why do you believe that? >> what they're going to do is spread lies about voter fraud like the giant lie the president keeps repeating which is that millions of people voted illegally, which is the only reason we have a commission on election integrity to begin with. they're going to lie about voter fraud to put in place policies that suppress the vote, like strict voter id laws, making voter registration, like cutting back on early voting. all these things we have seen states doing they're going to try to do at the federal level. >> who's on the commission. it is chaired by mike pence, chris, you saw in the opening

clip is the vice chair. then a series of people, new hampshire secretary of state, indiana, former ohio secretary of state, ken blackwell who is himself accused of voter suppression in ohio, people, former state legislator from arched. and hans spakovsky. >> for all intents and purposes, this is his commission, he is the a t the architect of laws to restrict voter registration, pushing these policies for years as i explained in minorities profile of him, he has very progressive policies in kansas. in kansas, you have to have documentary proof, birth certificate, passport, naturalization papers. most don't carry those documents with them. >> most don't have a passport. >> a lot of them don't have

those documents to begin with. in kansas, 1 in 7 new rej strants are blocked to vote. 1 in 7 people disenfranchised by this law alone. runs the cross check program to compare double voting among states. it produces 200 fake cases of double voting for every legitimate double vote found. meaning that thousands and thousands of people could be wrongly kicked off the rolls because of what kobach is doing. >> you talk about his mentors, personal history, it feels white et no nationalist. >> he has well known ties to white nationalists, people working for years to restrict immigration, talk about explosion of whites, people like samuel huntington his adviser at harvard who advised the apartheid government in south africa. he talks about rule of law, voter fraud, things that sound like common sense, but right

beneath the surface is this idea that white america is under threat from people of color, from immigrants, and that's why we have to restrict immigration and voting to preserve both the republican party and america's shrinking white majority. >> and too much democracy, societies breakdown. who is hans. >> he is a former official in bush justice department who other than kobach is the leading official that spread the myth of voter fraud and pushed voter suppression efforts back to the 1990s. he was the man that former attorneys in the bush civil rights division described as the point person for undermining voting rights during the bush administration. the fact that he is on this commission, the fact that kris kobach is on it shows it has nothing to do with integrity or voter fraud, this is a committee designed for one purpose, to suppress the vote in advance of the 2018 and 2020 elections. >> people forget in the george

w. bush administration, the u.s. attorney firing scandal was u.s. attorneys fired for refusing to find and prosecute phony voter fraud cases. they've done this before. >> they did a massive v investigation into voter fraud, didn't find a single person of someone impersonating another at the polls, i think the trump administration is a dramatic escalation of this. we have seen states like wisconsin and texas and north carolina suppress the vote. you talked about this extensively on the show. now they're trying to do it at the federal level, trying to use the resources of the federal government. it is the beginning of this voter suppression effort and why it is so disturbing. >> clear kobach got in with trump because he gave him what he wanted, a way to claim he won the popular vote. what he wants is some weird documentary proof something happened that didn't. it is scary. appreciate you being on top of this. thank you so much.

up next, veterans of the white house press corp and reporter that spent two years following every white press corp fight back, reporter spent two years following donald trump every step of the way. something like that. blah blah blah. i don't know what i'm saying. ♪ your body was made for better things than rheumatoid arthritis. before you and your rheumatologist move to another treatment, ask if xeljanz is right for you. xeljanz is a small pill for adults with moderate to severe ra for whom methotrexate did not work well. xeljanz can reduce joint pain and swelling in as little as two weeks, and help stop further joint damage. xeljanz can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections, lymphoma and other cancers have happened. don't start xeljanz if you have an infection. tears in the stomach or intestines, low blood cell counts and higher liver tests and cholesterol levels have happened. your doctor should perform blood tests before you start and while taking xeljanz, and monitor certain liver tests. tell your doctor if you were in a region where fungal

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for over 100 yearsaking like kraft has,al cheese you learn a lot about people's tastes. honey, what do you want for dinner tonight? oh whatever you're making. triple cheddar stuffed sliders. sold! news outlets get to go on day after day and cite unnamed sources, use stories without sources, have, you know, you mentioned the story where they had to have reporters resign. >> we are here to ask you questions, you're here to provide answers. what you did is inflammatory to people that say see, once again, the president's right and everybody else out here is fake media. everybody in this room is only trying to do their job. >> and the congregation of political watchers said amen,

hallelujah, after months of the press being battered and bullied from the podium in the white house press room, a reporter pushed back. he confronted deputy press secretary sarah huckabee sanders after she took time in the briefing for the whining, press bashing comments that have become standard fair from donald trump and people who speak for him. perhaps adding to the frustration, that time was more precious at tuesday's briefing because it was one of the dwindling opportunities to hold this administration to consult in a live on camera broadcast. last week, the white house banned cameras from the daily briefing three times, prompting cnn to go so far as to send a sketch artist to capture the scene in the room. kept most briefings off camera again this week, allowing live broadcast on only two days. karen's stand came after mounting pressure as the watchdog over transparency and accountability at the white house. so many options, boycott the briefings, turn on a camera,

live stream, or continue to do what we have been doing which is basically nothing. follow their rules like we're covering a perfectly normal presidency. joining me, katy tur, anchor and author of the upcoming book you will buy, unbelievable. front row seat to the craziest campaign. carol simpson, jason johnson, politics editor at the root.com. thank you all for being here. katy, let me start with you, get you to respond, get your reaction to donald trump's tweet just this morning in which he retweeted himself when he was performer on the wwe. here it is. i'll describe it to you. it is basically for those viewers who haven't seen it yet, it is donald trump showing himself body slamming a character in the wwe. there it is. and he put there fraud news cnn.

#fnn which i laughed is fox news network, is fraud news network. here is tomorrow as boss earth on this week responding to that tweet showing trump in his mind beating up cnn. take a look. >> is that the kind of communication you want, that he's beating up on somebody? that he's beating up on the media? you're in charge of homeland security there. that seems like a threat. >> certainly not, i think no one would perceive it as a threat, i hope they don't. i think he is beaten up in a way on cable platforms, he has a right to respond, too. >> in that campaign to be jeered at sometimes by name by donald trump, do you see that tweet as threatening? >> first off, tom boss earth could have been looking at kittens playing with each other, would have given the same response. doesn't matter what's shown, the white house has the same response, he has a platform to

talk to the people, and that's an important platform and also know this is not what you're seeing in front of your eyes. he has advocated violence, hasn't condemned violence strongly. on the campaign trail did it a number of times. talked about how he would love to punch a protester in vegas, police weren't strong enough, what it would have been like in the good old days, how a protester that was punched and kicked by supporters maybe deserved to get roughed up. talked about paying legal bills of a man who sucker punched a protester. talked about his legal bills and the man tried to get his legal bills paid after that. for sarah huckabee sanders to say he never advocates violence is beyond ludicrous. it is now just sad. >> really quickly, when reporters were in those pence at rallies, how did followers react. >> i'm not going to paint trump

supporters with a broad brush, they're not all horrible, terrible people who wanted to kick the a of the media. that's not factually correct. but when donald trump was in those rallies and was whipping up the crowds, they were a part of it, and they would turn in unison. i wrote about a giant unchained animal, and boo and yell and scream at the media and it got very tense and got very scary at moments. it would only take one person to take what donald trump was saying seriously or literally and go to the elks treem and take it one step further. not the majority, but there were a good portion of people in those rooms that realize this is part of the show, part of the act, and they were in on it. there was another good portion that fear yusly hates the media, thinks we're liars no matter what we do. one on one, trump supporters were mostly lovely. when you get that pack group

mentality, that's when it got frankly scary at times. >> let me go to brian on this. brian, you have a viral moment of standing up to sarah huckabee sanders who is only doing her job to please her audience of one, donald trump, say whatever he does is magnificent, why aren't you covering his magnificence, you know, we're in a situation now, first of all, tell me what set you off. why did you do that? >> well, it had been a week since we had had an on camera press briefing. she started out by telling us we should watch a video that she wasn't sure was accurate or not, but boy, if it was, gosh, it was bad. she wanted us to look at alleged fake media, accused us of being fake media. then she went out of her way to bash us. i had had enough. look, he started out telling me i am the enemy of the people. i'm not the enemy of the people. we are the people. he's the enemy of the people because he continually tries to cleef us from the rest of us. that's not right, that's not

what america is about. there isn't anybody in that press room, including those considered right wing and conservative that are doing anything more than doing their job where they're asking questions. that's our job. and he continues to belittle us, tries to put us down, is undermining the very foundation of this republic. you feel at times like i use the joke here, like rodney dangerfield, searching for respect. we respect him. he needs to respect us. and the fact of the matter is he doesn't, he wants to put out one message. the message is that he's great and the fact of the matter is we need to ask questions. i would love nothing more than to cover policy. i have been accused by some who say that i was trying to make myself part of the story. here's the story. he made us part of the story when he singled us out. at this point in time you can either stand up for your rights or you're going to get blown over. oppression, if you can concede to oppression, you will be oppressed. and the fact of the matter is this guy is at war with the

press. we have to stand up for our rights. it's that simple. before i can do the rest of my job, before i can tell you the policy debates, before i can tell you what's important about national security, before i can tell you what's important about health care, i've got to be able to get access to the information to do so. and the fact of the matter is he wants to keep us away from that access. and when i say i'm tired of being bullied, i'm not talking about sean spicer or even sarah. those two have done remarkable things, i'll defend what they've done as far as creating access for court reporters. t -- for reporters. he has to quit being a bully and has to be presidential. if he wants his message to get across, he has to quit muddling it with his emotions. >> and you're a veteran journalist on the panel, you have been at this a long time. i'm going to ask you if you've seen anything quite like this, including the fact that glenn

thrush of "new york times" and maggie haber man reported that sean hannity, the host of a right wing tv show on fox news is an informal adviser to donald trump and urged him to crackdown much harder on media. essentially sanctioning the attacks like he did against mika brzezinski this week. should the media stop showing up to press conferences, take out phones, live stream them? what do you advise journalists to do and have you ever seen anything like this? >> never seen anything like this. i have been a journalist for 40 years and i covered part of the carter administration and reagan administration and george h.w. bush. and we know that the presidents don't like us. they make no secret that they don't particularly care for what

we do, but our job is to be a representative of the american people, and i have been so disgusted and so frustrated and so upset by what i have seen the white house press corp endure, and brian, i have to tell you, you're my new hero, when you started talking. >> thank you. >> i watched all the briefings, and i was like finally, somebody is going to kickback, push back on this hatred toward the media. so i wanted the rest of the press corp to join up, stand up with you and continue shouting freedom of the press. freedom of the press. >> and what did you make of this tweet this morning, the wwe tweet by donald trump? >> that he wants to fight us. he wants to beat us up. he doesn't want us around. >> jason, you know, aside from

the kind of inciting the public to disbelieve the president and disdain the press, you have the fact that trump people go out, don't have the ability to speak for him, don't seem to know what to do to speak with him. this is "meet the press," had a back and forth with tom price about his tweets. take a listen. >> i'm just asking as a father. if your son tweeted about a woman like that, what would you say to him? >> chuck, you know, this is really remarkable. you have incredible challenges across this nation, incredible challenges around the world, the challenge that i have been given is to address health care issues, and your program, a program with the incredible history of "meet the press," and that's what you want to talk about. >> mr. secretary, with all due respect, you're blaming me for what the president of the united states has spent his entire week focused on? >> jason, your witness. >> look, the jury is now back. it is very clear we have a dictator in the making.

i know it still seems controversial, but this is how it starts, if you look at turkey, look at different countries throughout history, they bit by bit go to war with any and everyone who can actually stand against them in the form of providing information to the people. and here's the thing. i understand. i talk to my students about this, talk to fellow journalists, i understand why people can't just boycott. the economic imperative of being a journalist is getting access, they have to get information, that's how you get stories. but i think at this point it would be necessary and wise for many of these outlets to go in and say look, every time i talk to a member of this administration, i am going to pull out the phone. if you can't get an answer from tom price, sarah huckabee, kellyanne conway, you at least have to record the lies that you're getting. at some point we have to have a press that will stand up and say look, the economics of this while important are not as important as doing our fundamental jobs. and that's the only way to battle this administration. if he is doing this in six months, imagine what it looks

like by 2018. >> the press is standing up for themselves by and large, and you have people like brian who are pushing back against sarah huckabee sanders in that briefing and that's fantastic. we have our own reporters, kristin welker, shouldn't the president be held to a higher standard than news hosts. going after the administration in the briefing room since day one. that's not it. the representatives of this white house, the cabinet members, directors, spokesperson, homeland security director, all of them are -- what they're doing now is pathetic. it is pathetic when they go out and try -- >> as a reporter, you have to address. >> hold on, katy first. >> i'm sorry, i didn't mean to interrupt. >> it is pathetic when they go out and say we don't see what is clearly in front of our eyes every day. and that's what they're doing. sorry, my hair was covering the

microphone. >> the other side, sorry. >> it is sunday, guys. i'm not used to being on television today. it is pathetic what they're doing. they're going out and they're saying i know the president, his new clothes is wonderful. it is the emperor's new clothes every day. sarah huckabee sanders said he never condoned violence. >> a question a lot of people have is what do reporters do with that, you're told something you know is a lie, is false, yet your job is to go back to the news organization and tell them what the president spokesman said, what are journalists supposed to do? >> that's a good question. >> brian, then carole. >> there's two institutional problems to overcome. first of all, we are trained from the very beginning not to be part of the story, so you want to be able to do your job without being part of the story. unfortunately as i said he's made us part of the story, and he's not going to let go.

for those who think well, we can just do our job, keep our head down, plow forward, how is that working so far, well, it's not. you have to stand up and take a stand before you can do your job. the press together has to make some kind of statement that this is not tolerated, cannot be tolerated, is intolerable under this republic. now, we're not very good at working together, we're good at eating our own. but these are different times. as my friend major garrett at cbs said, the rules are completely different now, so you cannot play by the old rules. i'm not looking for the fight, the fight found us and i will be dag goned if i will be bullied. it is simply not right. when they tell us he isn't against violence, that's obviously something we have to confront with the facts. >> very quickly before i go to carole, there was a different protocol set up in the bush era, it shows you what the trump people want, what they sort of

want. used to have a ringer in the white house pattern, story from february 11, 2005, a pattern in which the white house press secretary scott mcclellan would get a more aggressive, less than friendly question, would call on jeff gannon and get a softball question. listen. >> senate democratic leaders have painted a very bleak picture of the u.s. economy, harry reed was talking soup lines, hillary clinton was talking about the economy being on the verge of collapse, yet in the same breath they say social security is rock solid and there's no crisis there. how are you going to work, you said you were going to reach out to these people. how are you going to work with people who seem to have divorced themselves from reality? >> that man was not a reporter, we won't get into that now. the idea is every administration

would love to have that ringer when the heat got too tough, go to a friend. this white house tried to stack friendly blogs in the room. hasn't stopped the tough questions. is there any -- give us a road out here. >> well, i am thinking of katy and thinking of brian. what you gonna do? >> you tell the truth, you push back, tell the truth which is what we do every day. >> yes. katy, you need a critical mass of all of you walking out, boycotting, something drastic must be done. this will get worse and worse and worse. you're trying to go through channels and do the right thing. obviously it's not working so the press needs to join together. i am one of the old timers who covered presidents, you know, in the '70s and '80s. i think we were closer together and would have really shared

this burden, this false hood. i just think about him saying fake news, fake news, fake news. that is subtly getting into people's brains. >> as we go out, jason, you seem to agree with civil disobedience and katy with the last word. >> he can't stop everybody. i understand there's a business element here, we all need access to the president, he is the president of the united states, but if everybody brought out cell phone cameras, everybody just recorded audio, they can't have an empty room. as arrogant and aggressive as this administration has been, they love the press as much as they say they hate them, they just want press that's friend leer. i think some collective action, it is possible, it can be done. >> you can't just walk out of the white house press briefing, this is the president of the united states. you have to cover this administration, even if they're making it impossible to do that. it would be great for the news networks to ban together, say we're going to walk out. but the reality is you have to

be there, try to get information out. push back when you can and you have to just try your hardest to get to the heart of it. it is not going to be good for any of us if all of donald trump's supporters and the rest of america suddenly feels like maybe they are against him, maybe they are trying to take him down. it is a very fine line, we haven't figured out how quite to walk it yet. but getting up and walking out of the press briefing room is not a good idea. >> this is a great debate. >> i disagree. >> we're going to re-assemble again. this is a great panel. went a little long. >> thank you very much to you. fabulous panel. up next. you know what's coming up next. jerry, jerry, jerry. because we're talking about trump. noo

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the president's tweet was completely inappropriate. >> obviously i don't see that as an appropriate comments. >> tweets like this are inconsistent with the greatness of the country and the office. >> this week, most of washington spent time discussing the dignity of the oval office, and whether or not trump's actions like picking a fight with cable tv hosts met its standards, seemed to have the definitive answer, tweeting i'm sorry, but trump's behavior is not just beneath the dignity of the presidency but that of any decent man. joining me, jerry springer. thank you so much for being here. appreciate it. good to talk to you. >> thanks, joy, for having me. >> let's get your reaction to

the latest trump opus, this is his tweet this morning, showing himself body slamming superimposed cnn back when he was a character on wwe. as somebody who's had more than a few tv fights on his show, what did you make of that moment? >> well, the point is what i would think any grown up's reaction would be, that's show business. it doesn't belong in the white house. i don't think trump has any feeling about the dignity and sacredness of where he is. this is the most powerful, most sacred job in america, most powerful job in the world. when you're there, you don't behave like you're on a tv reality show, you don't behave like you're on wwe. i have been on wwe. but it would never dawn on me that oh my gosh, this is how you behave in the white house. you could take any guest i ever

had on my show, with all of the craziness over 27 years. if they got an invitation to come to the white house, every one of them would probably say whoa, and would look for the very best clothing, the very best suit, put on their very best manners because they were going to see the president of the united states. we don't have that feeling any more with trump in there. it is like this is just a circus. >> do you think that the sort of jerry springer guest or guys that would come on, be willing to fight on television, when you talk to people that were on your show, guests on the show, do you get the sense that they would look up to donald trump and say this is the kind of president i want. he is more like me, the way i'm willing to behave in public. >> i think deep down if you're not in a political argument and you've shown some of the clips of the other republican senators, deep down everyone kind of knows no matter what's going on in their personal life, no matter what their behavior is

like, whatever their dysfunctions are, they kind of know when you're president of the united states, you ought to behave better. you ought to try to be some kind of role model. you're representing the greatest nation on earth. behave yourself. they would understand that. i'm telling you, even people on my show when the show is over, they're very well mannered. they say hey, jerry, can i have some pictures, would you hold my kid while we take a picture. what's a good restaurant to go to around here. they behave. even call me mr. springer, for god's sakes. of course, if you're meeting the president of the united states, you have a respect for that. why can't trump have that respect. >> i think the big debate. i feel like i have this debate every day with people of whether or not he is above or a feature, whether or not he is the aberration or barack obama was the last in an era of presidents who comported themself in a certain way, whatever their personal lives, go back to all

of the presidents that were cheaters or whatever vulgar in the way they spoke when you got the lbj tapes. in public, even richard nixon in public comported himself well. donald trump tweeted something yesterday that i think is interesting. he tweeted yesterday my use of social media is not presidential, it is in all caps modern day presidential. make america great again. have we crossed that rubicon where maybe the crass entertainment value of trump is the new standard for what a lot of americans think a president should be, not what you and i are talking about, this dignified old standard? >> well, he has crossed the rubicon but i don't think the american people have. sure, trump has his supporters. i get that. but it is not a majority of the american people. and it is not even a majority of republicans if you ask them about this behavior. no. most americans are able to compartmentalize, they know when they're watching crazy television, they know when

they're watching professional wrestling, they know when they're watching a sporting event or out with their friends on friday night in a bar. they know that that kind of behavior is totally different than what we should expect from the president of the united states of america. i don't believe for one second that most americans believe that indecent behavior is appropriate in the white house. i just don't believe it. >> jerry, let me play you a little of donald trump's most absurd moments. this is before 60 million people voted for him for president. take a look. >> okay. here's one just came out. lock her up is right. no. you have to see this guy, oh, i don't know what i said, oh, i don't remember. he's going like i don't remember. maybe that's what i said. i could stand in the middle of fifth avenue and shoot somebody and i wouldn't lose any voters. binge binge, bong bong bong, you know what that is, right? >> jerry, that sort of thing made people that analyze

politics believe that set aside working class voters who may look at him as what they want to aspire to be if they had $14 million their dad left them, you have a lot of white republican women who looked at that and a lot of analysts said there's no way that sort of people dressed and pressed would vote for somebody like that, and they did. so i wonder if maybe we're ascribing to the american public a kind of desire for dignity, desire for proper comportment that is only there for people that are in an ivory tower, maybe it isn't there as broadly as we think. >> i think a lot of people in the past election, not a majority of people, 3 million more people voted for hillary, let's remember that. anyway, a lot of people did vote for trump. but a lot of people made a deal with the devil in a sense. they weren't supporting his behavior. they would say even in interviews no, that's not right. i don't want my kid growing up like that. that's no way to behave toward

women, et cetera. but at least if he got elected we would have the person selected for the supreme court that we want. or at least if we voted for him, he would give us wealthy people a tax break. so people were willing to overlook that, not that they approved of the behavior, but they were willing to overlook that because they would get the one thing that they really wanted out of politics which maybe was a lower tax or the right supreme court appointment or whatever. that is the deal they made. now that people have seen the result of this and how we're mocked throughout the world, how all of a sudden maybe our security isn't as great as it should be, maybe people say that's the last time i make a deal with the devil on this case, no, i'm not going to support that man again. >> we shall see. jerry springer, thank you very much.

appreciate it. have a great weekend. coming up, a radical idea could split the nation in two. tell you about it next.

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as we celebrate america's independence, some states might be looking for independence of their own. more "am joy" next. thanks for the ride around norfolk! and i just wanted to say, geico is proud to have served the military for over 75 years! roger that. captain's waiting to give you a tour of the wisconsin now. could've parked a little bit closer... it's gonna be dark by the time i get there. geico®. proudly serving the military for over 75 years. at crowne plaza we know business travel isn't just business.

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back in march this article made rounds with an x treem proposal for liberals that found it hard to stomach living in trump's america. the message, don't organize, pack. the article called for blue hillary clinton states to stop funding the federal government, a blue exit. why? because blue states fund the federal government more while red states are most dependent on the funding. author of the piece writes we

give up, you win. from now on we'll treat the animating ideal on which the united states was founded out of many one dead and buried. joining me, author of that very controversial article, kevin baker, michelle bernard, and back with us, jamal simmons. i'll start with you, both because you're at the table and your piece that inspired the segment. talk about what a blue exit would mean. are you talking about actual is he -- is he session. >> it failed once. shouldn't want to do it again. but what we should do is try as much as possible to build liberalism where we can. that means using as many of our resources, keeping our resources, making blue states into laboratories of democracy. >> you think blue states which pay more into federal treasury than we get back, and red states

take more, they're the taker states, we are states that donate, you think blue states should stop sending tax money to the federal government. >> we should as much as possible legally. >> is that legal? >> no, we couldn't just -- but we should seize upon any and every chance red states, republicans give us to basically keep as much money, to agree with the federalism they're always talking about and rarely doing, which is to have all of the money the states make stay in the states as much as possible, all for doing that. >> david french agreed with your idea and is a very conservative person who writes for national review, he said this is the kind of laboratory for democracy i have been talking about forever. he is like let's do it. have every state hold their own money, decide in their own state how to do it. put back up federal dollars raised versus spent. you can see it, it shows that it is a hard to read map. states with a surplus are green states, the greener the state, more money it is putting in and

the redder the state, pinker, more money it is taking out. michelle bernard, why is this not a good idea? do voters of red states express consistent disdain for blue states? this idea of san francisco values is a thing where people feel the elites on the coast don't understand them, respect their religiosity, and hateful person they don't want to be associated with. why should blue states continue to fund red states that hate them? >> you know, we talk about this notion of more perfect union. i understand the sentiment behind the article, but the thing is, it is a hard pill to swallow if you are the descendant of slaves that built the nation, descendants of people that survived internment camps or descendants of native americans who were squeezed into reservations. it is a very difficult pill to swallow. then what you're telling us, that the great american

experiment in democracy was a failure, you know, and the other reason i would say this is so difficult to swallow is because when you look at states that are the proximate cause of harm to african americans, muslims, women, or any of the source, it is the federal government we have always been able to look to to right a wrong. even today, right now, if you look, for example, at show me your paper laws, whether it is florida, utah, arizona, or texas where the state actors are saying that the police can virtually stop anyone they want at any time to ask you to prove your citizenship and immigration status, and then have the ability to say they don't believe the papers that you're carrying, it is a very scary notion to believe and to want to believe this notion that the blue states should basically abandon the federal government.

more than 50% of the african americans in this country live in red states. women, 48 to 51% of women live in red states. muslims for the most part, the largest percentage of muslims in the united states who are under attack as we speak today live in red states. what are we going to do, move those people out of red states to blue states? >> what would you respond to that. >> i think those are very good points. i think that is a real concern. the trouble is under trump, under this republican congress, neither money or concern will get to people that need it most in the red states. the trump administration is not interested in helping mississippi. the republican congress is not going to try to fix detroit or even fix the water system in flint. the trump administration great project is to make it as difficult as possible for immigrants, for people of color. they're going to want us to show cards everywhere, all the time.

>> it feels like we're in upside down world, where the federal government is the one demanding everybody's personal information that voted and states are pushing back saying no, wait a minute, mr. federal government, you can't have that. you have the federal government saying we're going to strip away your medicaid, even republican states saying you can't take away our health care. there's an interesting statistic in city limits.org, said by 2040, 70% of americans expected to live in 15 largest states which are also home to overwhelming majority of 30 largest cities in the country, and that means that 70% of the americans will only get 30 senators and 30% of americans will get 70 senators. are we speeding toward a time when the rural, smaller states are going to rule over states with big cities in them? and most of the people? >> you know, the whole place was set up so rural, smaller states would be able to have a say, not

get overrun by some of the bigger states, but let's remember we have to have some perspective here. just ten years ago now some of the states we're talking about voted for a black man with a funny name from chicago named barack obama, so the fact that we now have somebody like donald trump in office does not mean the country is all of a sudden spiralled into some crazy place we can't recover from, it means perhaps some of us in blue states have more work to do. >> but there was incredible symmetry in the votes, most red states gave barack obama deep red south gave him 10 to 11% of vote. >> sure. >> democrats thinking they could win in kansas or montana was crazy, not the fact they lost. there's a part of the country that's red seemingly permanently. why should blue states keep subsidizing them. >> we have to have perspective are liberal, and people who are

conservative can be very generous. i would recommend people look at cheryl cash en's work. she would argue after california in 1994 was almost ungovernable, we had more immigration, more interracial mixing, had more people, more older people dying off, and the country, california became governable, the united states can too. >> all right. this is a debate. have to have part two of this. kevin baker, michelle bernard, jamal simmons, we will have you back and debate this again. at the top of the hour, congressman ted lieu talks about the latest attack on the press. up next, an image makeover for pepe the frog. ♪

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pepe the frog. the chill frog dude co-opted by the far right. he killed off his creation last month and what appeared to be a rebuke to racist antisemitic trolls who had hijacked pepe. it looks like he may be resurrected in a new comic book. that's the new goal of a kick starter campaign aimed at rebranding pepe symbolled for peace, love and acceptance. the crowd funding campaign had raised more than $17,000. joining me is jason if you afur. his attorney kimberly motley. thank you for being here. jason, first of all, do you recall how pepe got co-opted by the alt right, the neonazis in suits and biker shorts? >> right. yeah. you know, it's been kind of a roller coaster ride for the character. you know, he started as a really

chill character in a comic book made by my brother for his friends, and it was a popular online thing for a long time, but the repurposing really kind of got a lot of momentum during the past presidential election when he was being name dropped a lot. images were coming to the forefront a lot more. >> a lot of images of him dressed as a nazi, him dressed as donald trump. one of the people who caught onto the sort of pepe rage was donald trump jr. who had a thing for retweeting a lot of neonazis on twitter. he posted this on september 10th. still on his instagram page. they called it the deplorables, his father, roger stone, a lot of people they called the deplorables after what hillary clinton said and there's pepe and then of course donald trump said he made a cut as the part of the deplorables. this is don jr. on abc's "good morning america" explaining himself. >> george, if i'm glib, perhaps that's the case. i've never heard of pepe the

frog. i bet 90% of your viewers haven't heard of pepe the frog. i had no idea there was any connotation there. >> i'm wondering if the cooptation, he claimed he hadn't heard of it, things happen, is there a case there that it was sort of illegal the way that people took hold of this image and changed it the way they did? >> well, i mean, basically with pepe it's not about quashing people's right to freedom of speech which obviously we wholeheartedly believe in. we do reject the right of other people taking matt's character and hijacking him and making a profit from pepe. and that is where the legal challenges lie. you don't have a right to take a person's creation and then profit off that creation, which we see many people within the alt right movement have done so. >> you have the president of the united states october 13th tweet, if we can put up, from

2015. this is donald trump coopting the idea of himself substituted as pepe. the anti-defamation league added pepe the frog, the meme, as a symbol used as by antisemites. it's a hate symbol. >> that's realistically we know that we can't fight the internet as a whole. you know, the internet is going to say what they want it to say. the way you fight back in our opinion is to just keep being creative, keep being positive and our kick starter is an effort to make a new comic book in the spirit of the original boy's club comic where pepe first appeared. so it's not really about fighting and saying you can't do this, saying you can't do that. it's more about just being peaceful and being loving and being creative and putting out, you know, your best effort to

add something positive to the narrative. that's what we're aiming to do here. >> jason, your brother matt put out a statement. this is his reaction to pepe being turned into a racist symbol on monday by the associated press. furie was horrified to see his mascot being used for this. quote, it's all just happened so fast. make no mistake, they're basically the new clue cluks clan. do y -- ku klux klan. >> i support my brother and it is a messy situation. him a creator of the image is the most upset by this but, you know, at the end of the day we're just trying to symbolically rebrand him into something more positive. >> we wish you luck with that. jason furie and kimberly motley, thank you. before we go, a few things to celebrate. today is the washington post j.k.'s birthday. also in birthday news, on tuesday july 4th, the great bill

withers celebrates his birthday. all the best to you, sugar. that's our show for today. have a happy fourth of july. coming up at the top of the hour, the fallout from donald trump's latest tweet storm. more news coming up. and packages. and it's also a story about people. people who rely on us every day to deliver their dreams they're handing us more than mail they're handing us their business and while we make more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country, we never forget... that your business is our business the united states postal service. priority: you ♪

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it's time to unleash your secret weapon. it's there, right under your nose. get to your best smile up to 50% faster. visit invisalign.com to get started today. hi, everybody. good day. i'm thomas roberts at msnbc world headquarters. high noon, 9:00 a.m. on the west. day 164 of the trump administration, and president trump is taking his feud with the media to a whole new level. this morning he tweeted that video of himself at a wwe wrestling match in '07. as you can see, it was edited to put the cnn logo over vince mcman's face. that's the body that trump is wrestling with. now the president used to show up at these wrestling matches and he's beating up mcmahon. president trump retweeted the video from his