instagram. you can find me on snap chat. i really do appreciate when you take the time to send in your comments, your criticisms, feel free to do that. in the meantime, thank you for watching. 20 years have donald trump. let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington with a special edition of "hardball." long before he took up the most powerful office in the world, donald trump had established himself as a public figure. always willing to share his thinking about the issues and events of our time. through two decades i've interviewed this complex and controversial president more than a dozen times. tonight, we're going to look at the donald trump i got to know in those conversations. let's begin with mr. trump's

first experience on this show in 1998. it was days after blinl confessed to his white house affair with intern monica lewinsky. >> it is so embarrassing. you have to say where does it stop? i really like this guy but you have to say, where does it stop? why do they keep revealing the details? he had sex. now they talk about the kind, on the desk, off the desk, it is so out of control. >> do you think he should have, do you think he could have gotten away with a complete mea kucla in january when he decided to cover it up? do you think he could have said, the american people like me. they're going to buy this. >> i don't think he could have done any worse. i would have done something very different than he did. paula jones is a loser but she may be responsible for bringing down a president indirectly. that statement was a bad

statement to have been made. and it is proven to be false. >> which statement baltimore? >> the paula jones in the deposition which really started it. >> and denied it. if you're in a hole, stop digging. you walk away from the deal and say i'm not dealing anymore. >> i think his little speech after was a disaster. i'm not sure he should have done it. i'm not sure he should have just gone in and said i don't get i know what this man, starr. he's after me. he's a republican. he's this. he's that and taken the fifth amendment. it is a terrible thing for a president to take the fifth amendment but he should have double it. i don't think he could have done any worse. it is such an embarrassment to him. i've seen him walking around. it is such an embarrassment. >> where is he going? up or down? >> i think the best he can do is tread water for two years. i think he can maybe keep the office and tread and get out as opposed to someone who got out in a harsh manner. it may be worse than that.

>> did you ever have a flicker when you were taking a shower, waking up in the morning, donald trump, you've won every battle you ever fought. maybe i should run for governor. >> people say that all the time. can you imagine that? how about me with the women? >> my next interview was our 1999 college tour at his alma mater, the wharton school of business at the university of pennsylvania. even back then trump was considering a run for president in the 2000 election. trump was between marriages at the time of our interview. while he was dating the future first lady melania, there were questions about how he would handle the office without a first lady. >> you have a special guest you would like to introduce. >> do i indeed. >> i see her. >> my super model. this is melania. stand up.

[applause] >> one thing it is safe to say about you, you know the difference between slovakia and slovenia. >> i do. >> let me ask you a tough question. this is a technical thing but it is kind of fun. the president of the united states gets an allowance. that's why you never have to cash that check. you won't have that problem. they have an allowance for parties and whenever they pass out the wine glasses. the first lady gets to control all that. she has the east wing. how will you handle that? >> well, i got myself into a lot of trouble when i said i could be married within 24 hours if need be. [ laughter ] see, that's what happens when you go to wharton, folks. i could handle it. i could handle it very easily. >> i'm not sure that today, being married, i really could be

married, and it is one of those things. i just got out of a marriage. so you would handle the social arrangements. >> i'll handle it myself or we'll see what happens. lots of things can happen. lots of changes. >> i believe, i have to tell you in all seriousness, i believe strongly in the institution of marriage. it is an inkribl institution when you get it right. my father just died. they were married 63 years and they had the most incredible marriage. i think the one thing my father couldn't believe and understand, how could you get divorced? wasn't even a word in his vocabulary but it happens. i believe in the institution of marriage. it beats being the world's greatest playboy by a million but sometimes you don't have a choice. >> if you're the president of the united states -- i have a question about that later. if you're president of the united states, you expect it will be inevitably a first lady joining you at some point? >> melania, would you like to

stab up and answer one big question? the only person i can imagine putting jackie kennedy to shame. would you like to be a first lady? >> it would be an honest to be first lady. >> thank you. >> in that same 1999 interview, trump said his top concern as commander in chief would be nuclear proliferation. in particular preventing a conflict in north korea. 18 years later trump finds himself grappling with these very issues as president. let's watch. >> if you get to be president, define the nirvana, the great age of trump. what would it be like? >> well, i think the nirvana would be cleaning up the world from nuclear missiles. ultimately, we have got ourselves a big problem. and these young folks in this room, they're incredible. these people will have themselves a bigger problem than me or you or anybody else. frankly, you have north korea just loading up with nuclear

warheads. you have china, russia has them and they don't even know who is controlling them. i think it is singly the biggest issue out there and somebody who is the talk about it. i brought it up. people don't like mentioning it but it has to be done. >> let me ask you about some things that loom ahead. you're president of the united states. you get a call from the cia chief. he shows you the north koreans ready to move. they're going to use the tunnels, perhaps the threat of military nuclear, they have their arms at the border. they're ready to move. how would you go about dealing with a situation like that? >> i would think to think about it at the time. i would have to see how the south is reacting. obviously the south will have something to say about it. i will tell you, i alluded to it at the beginning. north korea is probably our single biggest problem right now. >> saying if you move, we move, you're gone. >> i don't think i want to signal something right now. i don't want to have it held

against me later on. something will have to be done with north korea. they're out of control, very unstable, very militant and something will have to be done. >> trump joined me next april 2001 to discuss george w. bush's first 100 days in office. he gave the new president high marks and contrasted bush's style in office with that of his predecessor, bill clinton. you know, mr. trump, it seems to me we have a president than some of the guys we've had running for office recently. he is not exactly a political junky. he doesn't talk about politics like senator. he is more or less articulate. do you have a sense he is running this more like a business, the white house now? >> well, i think he is running it very well. i think he's really stepped up and doing an awfully good job. he's had he a little turmoil with china is that other things that weren't expected. they weren't anticipated. he has stepped up to the plate and i think he is becoming very

presidential. >> if you had to do a scouting report on a chief executive, how would you compare him? put these two men side by side. the two president we'll watch for 100 days and the president we had for eight years. >> you're talking about opposites. bill clinton was very comfortable, very everything. look, a lot of people were extremely upset with him. especially the way he got out. i like him very much. but i know of mark ridge. to give him a pardon, it was just something that was inexcusable. i think we're dealing with very opposites and i think that's what the electorate wanted. they really wanted opposites and that's what they got. >> do you have a sense that hillary clinton has really moved out on her own politically? i'm not talking about her marriage. but as a person, that she has dropped the booster rocket completely sf she is hillary clinton hillary and bill is not part of the scene? >> i think she very much loves him. she's to go on a personal basis,

which is probably most interesting to most of the people. i'm sure all of your viewers. she really does. she is totally in love with this man but boy, she's a tough time of it. no doubt about it. >> do you think that pardon for mark rich, do you think that hurt her in new york? >> i think it hurt her and really hurt him. people that were really backing him and willing to give them benefit of the doubt, look, we've had it. and it was sad. and i like him so much. i think he's terrific in so many ways. it was just a culmination of so many different things. i have friends, no matter what he did, it was okay. when he did that, they just gave up. and it was a very sad thing. >> that same year, 2001, trump joined me again by phone just six days after the attacks of 9/11. and here's what he said about rebuilding downtown zmork how new yorkers pulled together amid the devastation. >> we have on the phone right now, new york real estate

developer donald trump. let me ask you the question, rudolph giuliani said the best thing america can do for new york is to go to new york and spend some money. what do you think? >> well, i think that's true. judging from the streets today, a lot of people are out there. a lot of people are very proud to be new yorkers and very proud to be in this country. generally speaking. it has been amazing. there has been an amazing show of confidence and faith despite what happened with the almost 700-point down market. >> i'll usually shocked negatively, but what shocked me, the way everybody pulled together hooflt is the com, who is the fireman, who is the rich real estate developer, everybody seemed to be on the same level. tell me what you're thinking. >> it is a truly great city. i've known it a long time. people here know it. it is a truly great city. i think they've really proved it this week. our firemen, our policemen.

they're so great. it is under believable. i watched the digout now, the construction workers, i've never seen anything like it. it is a tragic event but it somehow pulled the country and new york even closer together. >> do you think new york needs to replace, you need to replace the world trade towers? >> well, the big question he is the tenants? how many feet will you build? it would be beautiful. symbolically it would be important i'm not sure it has to take place in the same form. the world trade center was never considered a greater architectural master piece until a few days ago and now everybody talks about it as the greatest. i think we can do better but i think it is important to rebuild in some form. maybe a stronger form than even the world trade center. coming up throughout my years of interviewing donald trump, i questioned him about running for president. he teased the notion many times. his answers to me could be

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introducing xfinity mobile. a new kind of network designed to save you money. welcome back to this special edition of "hardball." 20 years of trump. we look back on the many interviews i've done with donald trump to see what we can glean watching the evolution of the man who became our 45th president. the attacks of september 11 he contributed to the 2016 campaign which brought him criticism for his attacks on muslims. but back then the real estate billionaire talked about bloomberg. let's listen to this exchange i had with him six months after the attack. >> let me ask you about new york ufrl a figure of almost comic book status. a major personality in new york and the celebrity culture of new york. you're part of the pizazz of

manhattan and the big apple. how has the mood of the city changed? is it less frivolous? more sober? what has changed. you know this better than anybody. >> there's a sadness. but at the same time i've never seen the spirit that we have in new york today. i think michael bloomberg is doing a really great job. i've known michael a long time. he's going to go down as a great mayor. there's a sadness but a spirit. i say new york will come back stronger and bigger and better than before. >> 2016 wasn't the first time donald trump dived into politics. in fact, he spoke of running as far back as 1988. in 2000 he launched an exploratory committee as a reform candidate. in 2003, i asked if he was still interested in politics. let's watch. >> donald trump, you talked about possibly running in 2004 after pulling out last time. are you still possibly interested? i think you're a republican. that's my guess. you wouldn't challenge the

president, would you? >> no, i wouldn't. number one, i never wanted to run. i looked at it because we had some polls that you did and others did. i love real estate. i love building buildings. you said you heard i would run in 2004. i hadn't heard that. >> we dug up an old quote of yours. let's go over it. it said, you would take a look the it a in 2004. i continue to be interested in the political process. and i cannot rule out a possible candidacy in 2004. that was you in february 2000. >> that was a long time ago. i hadn't heard night long time. >> you heard it here. >> i never did run and i probably never will. >> take a look at his answer on the same interview in who he would put in the match-ups. >> what about bill clinton against michael bloomberg? >> well, mike is really working hard and i think he's doing a really good job. and bill clinton won't run.

and bill just joins my golf club so i like him very much. i like him beyond golf clubs. >> rudy versus hillary. who wins? >> that will be a very interesting one. you're talking about for the president presidential. that could happen. i don't predict a winner. that could certainly happen. >> you don't have a favorite? >> let me ask you who you would vote for? rudy or hillary? >> don't ask me that question. >> a major point of contention throughout the 2016 campaign was donald trump's position on the iraq war. candidate donald trump repeatedly said he had been opposed to the war before the march 2003 invasion and often took credit for his vision and judgment saying he knew it would destabilize the region. but wasn't quite what he said it was. let's watch this exchange. >> he took us into iraq.

do you think he will reconsider as the costs rise? >> i don't think he is going. to as he very committed guy. he is committed to that whole situation. i don't think he will really reconsider. i don't think he can at this moinlt. other people will. you'll find out at the holes. the question is whether or not we should have been in iraq in the first place. i don't think this president can do anything about that. he is on a course that who is the stay. >>. more to come from my interviews over the years with donald trump including what trump thinks makes a good leader and why we elect the presidents we do. and the news making interview. this is my special edition of "hardball," 20 years of trump. company says they'll only pay ue three-quarters of what it takes to replace it. what are you supposed to do? drive three-quarters of a car? now if you had liberty mutual new car replacement™, you'd get your whole car back.

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republican leaders in the senate are putting two new versions of the health care proposal to the congressional budget office over the holiday week. meanwhile prorks points of the republican plan are gathering to hold rallies as representatives are back in their districts. and lawmakers have reached a partial deal that would end a shutdown. back to "hardball." our special edition of "hardball." 20 years of trump will continue in a minute including the interview i did with him last march when he knocked himself off his game. you're watching "hardball," where the action is.

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welcome back to this special edition of "hardball." 20 years of trump. the year 2004 was a big turning point this donald trump's career, celebrity businessman. with a view of his reality show, "the apprentice," i spoke with him the day the show premiered. >> when you fire these people, it is not the same as firing somebody, or is it, in real life? >> it is not much different, to be honest. over the years i've fired a lot of people. you can do it nice, you can do it easy, you can take your time. i've taken months and months to fire people. or you can do it viciously and quick will he, you're fired. in the end, it doesn't matter. when you fire somebody, they hate you. >> when trump came back to promote the second scenic of the then hit show, i asked him his thoughts on the then presidential campaign.

bush versus kerry, campaign politics and the war in iraq. >> economically, what is the impact of a government who decides to borrow a war, fight now, pay later? >> look. i don't think it is positive. i think it is a big negative. if you look at north korea, frankly, i think if the united states used that as a launching base to go into iran and clean out the nuclear problems, maybe i would say that's a great move. we ought to look at iran and north korea. what they're doing with nuclear womens. >> let me ask but this choice people make. what kind of a choice is it? historically, a re-election campaign has been distinctive from a regular campaign. you have a track record of a guy for four years. is this really what it is about? he's done a good job or is it a choice question like we always face in other cases? >> i think in this case it is both. some people love bush. it is very fragmented. people love him and the job he's

done is that other people can't stand him and the job he's done. and people are very mixed on kerry. i will tell you this. i sat through convention in new york. they did a great job, the republicans. maybe the greatest spin i've ever seen, it is almost coming out that bush is a war here doctor and kerry is not. that may be the greatest spin i've ever seen. the whole swift boat thing by bush and bush's people happened to be brilliant. they've taken all the war hero thing away from kerry and almost given to it bush. and bush was not serving. that we know. >> let me ask but perhaps what you might call unnecessary roughness in politics. this week, dick cheney, a very tough guy, said if we elect kerry, that we're basically going to face ourselves with the threat of a devastating attack. he is saying vote democrat. you'll get attacked. >> it is a terrible statement unless he gets away with it.

the other side doesn't seem to be hitting very heart. it is a terrible statement. let's see how the other side handles it. after two days i haven't seen much handling. >> you're saying it means the other side by its election would endanger the country. >> just take a look at that whole premise. 9/11 happened during the bush administration. why isn't somebody attacking? i'm not taking sides. i'm just saying, he made statement two or three days ago and i haven't heard anything to knock him. >> if you were the corner man, the contender is coming, if you were a corner man for kerry, what would you tell him to do? quit, change, get tough, be visceral, be something you're not? how can you change this guy to a winner? >> i know him. he is a very capable guy.

and every election he's losing until the ends. that's one thing to remember about him. he lost the primary. he was out of it. people weren't even talking about him. he was also losing in the senate. he had 30% of the vote. the guy has a way of coming back good. don't juth think he is going to come back. it has been decimating the democrats. he ought to go out and do his thing. why is he putting out now a confusing position on iraq? >> well the whole campaign has been confusing. i think what people want to hear is we'll get out of there as quickly as possible. i think that's what people want to hear.

>> you don't think they care about if he's for the war or not. that's unclear right now. >> sole things can happen. i was he asking, why can't they find a 6'6" arab named osama bin laden? he is 6'6", he is on a dialysis machine supposedly and we kbl find him? then you see him on telling vision. we can't track this guy? if bush found him prior to the election, the election is won. then i would tell kerry, you might as well give it up. had so a lot of things can happen that can be both positive and negative to both parties. >> after the 2004 election, i asked for trump's take on the economy and got a look at how he would handle one government program if he were president. let's talk about the economy. i only have a couple minutes left. i want to ask but the three big concerns i have as one of the three big americans. are you worried about them

letting the dollar tip too low? >> well, the dollar is keeping the economy good. people are coming to new york, they're buying apartments in new york, they're using the hotels. the dollar, it is a horrible word when they say the low dollar, it happens to bring a lot of people into this country. >> but it is great to travel in this country. a terrible situation to travel overseas with. >> that's right. but it keeps people here so i'm not sure that's so bad. >> you're not worried about the time will quhom the people lending us money will say, i don't like the dollar and then we're going to have a big problem with the bank run on u.s. paper. >> i don't see it happening. this is one company it won't happen to. it sounds terrible and you hate to say it. it brings business and it is good in terms of what we all do. >> you expect they'll keep the policy. >> i think they'll keep the policy. i think the dollar will hit you

up and that's not so bad. the worst times we've had he is when you have a very strong dollar. nothing came in at all. having a strong dollar, it sounds good. nothing happens good for the country. >> what about when you compound the situation by a big long term borrowing situation in addition to the couple where borrowing about $600 billion a year now? what happens when carrying social security into these accounts. big short term deficits for the federal deficit. does that keep us at the tipping point? >> we've had the deficits before and we're going to have them again. the war is costing far more than anyone ever thought. the key is as long as interest rates stay low. if interest rates are low, we'll be fine. if interest rates go up and the dollar goes up, that's a devastating combination. ? ho do you avoid rising interest

rates? >> it is really amazing. i've been asking that the last year or so. rates are still very low. they continue to be low and i'm very happy about it. the real estate agency. if rates go up. interest rates keep low, we'll be in good shape. >> you're not concerned that this is a situation that goes wrong. >> at some point it always goes wrong. we've been riding something very good and very he strong for a long period of time. at some of the point things will happen and they won't be pleasant. we'll get out of them and it will be all right. >> if you were president of the united states, would you push individual retirement accounts or social security? >> i think i would. something has to be done. social security is a huge problem right now. funding it. and something will have to be done and it will have to be done

very quickly. they're moving on different methods. something is going to have to be done rather quickly. >>? 2005, donald trump was back. this time to promote his plan to rebuild the twin towers. he had some harsh words for the plands freedom tower, now called one world trade the central. will you lead a coalition to stop governor pataki? >> there's not much of a role i can take. it started when the new york post called me. i'm the biggest developer in new york by far. i've done everything in new york that can be done. it is a shame. we have a great the opportunity. the terrorists win. in we rebuild the world trade

center, are then we win. >> up next, i grilled trump on the issue that fueled his political rise. his wholehearted embrace of birtherism. plus, one of the rare times he was corner in the an interview when i pushed him on his view of abortion rights. david. what's going on? oh hey! ♪ that's it? yeah. ♪ everybody two seconds! ♪ "dear sebastian, after careful consideration of your application, it is with great pleasure that we offer our congratulations on your acceptance..." through the tuition assistance program, every day mcdonald's helps more people go to college. it's part of our commitment to being america's best first job. ♪ trust #1 doctor recommended dulcolax. use dulcolax tablets for gentle dependable relief. suppositories for relief in minutes. and dulcoease for comfortable relief of hard stools. dulcolax. designed for dependable relief.

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of trump. donald trump's political rise coincided with the birther movement, the bogus claim that president obama was not born in the united states. as he campaigned in 2015 and 2016, president trump refused to disavow his past comments. after the republican primary debate, i interviewed him and i pressed him on the topic of birtherism. >> i want to ask you a last question. you can leave but i would like you to stay. is donald trump honest when he says that barack obama isn't a legitimate president? it's a good question because -- >> i didn't say you couldn't. >> you can't stop me. >> i should really -- i should not tell you this but i do watch you a lot. i knew you would ask that question. i don't talk about it anymore. >> you get to answer the questions you like. >> this guy is a total professional. i have to say. i don't answer. if do i answer, that's all people want to talk about.

>> you're going to have to answer in the general election. is he legitimate? >> once i answer, they don't want to talk about the economy. we catholics believe in confession. you say you were wrong and you move. on you really believe this guy is an illegitimate president? >> i don't want to answer the question. >> did you have a good time? was it a good interview? >> this? i want you for a longer time but thank you, mr. trump. i do think it is a blemish. i think it is your original sin. >> i know how you feel. >> i think our presidents should be respected. he is african and we're saying he is not a good president. it is not a good thing about you. i'm allowed to say you're a mixed bag. >> i understand. thank you. >> in march of 2016, candidate trump joined me for a "hardball" college tour. he made news on a wide range of

topics. early on i asked him about his plan to fight terrorism and his plan to ban muslims from coming to the united states. >> let's talk about isis. it is the number one issue since last week. how do you beat people? they put their hands up because they know it is homeless. >> called uniforms. >> how do you fight people who wrap themselves that dynamite. they get up and wrap themselves in kind might. they get up, brush their teeth, shave in some cases, kill themselves that morning. how do you beat an army like that? this gets down to something we haven't dealt with before. >> we have to be so tough and so vigilant and we have to do things we've never done before. >> they want to die for their cause. >> maybe they do. some of them do and a lot of people are trying to figure out why they do this, how are they doing it? >> they're recruited. >> are they drugged out when they do it? what's going on?

when they walk in and blow themselves up. are they all drugged up? is someone drugging them? there's a lot of things going on. when i talk about, we have to be very careful. we have people coming into this country. it is a very bad situation. we have thousands and thousands of people coming into our country. we have no idea where they come from. >> oftentimes, it is the second or first generation. it is not the first wave of immigrants. they were born there. they're belgians. >> look at the guys in boston. they were here. they came as young kids and became radicalized. >> does banning or coming into the country even temporarily encourage them to be on our side or the other side? >> i think banning until we figure out what's going on is a good thing. i take a lot of heat for it and a lot of people like me for it. but there's something going on. >> there's 1.6 billion muslims in the world and they're all getting the message from donald

trump saying stay out of my country. how does that encourage them to fight isis? >> they have a big problem. what you are doing is a great thing. not a bad thing. >> i have a lot of friends who are muslim and they call me. in most cases, they're very rich muslims. >> do they get in the country? >> they'll come in. and you'll have exceptions. wait, wait. chris, chris, with the san bernardino situation, many people saw the bombs on the tables. not one person, they said it is racial profiling. do you know why they said that? you saw this. you'd better come up with a good excuse. they said it is racial profiling. a lot of people saw what was going on in that apartment. not one muslim. >> of course i'll with you on this. you're saying -- >> why don't they report them? >> you say ban them from the country. they get the message.

1.6 indonesia, pakistan, anywhere there's muslims. they know it don't want them. they're ill disposed to fight isis. >> maybe they'll say we want to come to america and solve this problem. i'm serious about that. >> he wants patrol cars riding up in neighborhoods with muslim people living there, looking in the windows for plotting. these aren't street -- >> my stance has been -- >> he's toughening up. >> i think we have to look at the mosques. i think we have to be extremely careful. we're making enemies by doing nothing. we're knocking down world trade centers, shooting planes into the pentagon, probably the other plane was going to the white

house. what do we do? just sit back and be nice to everybody? we can't be so nice. >> i asked him about past talk to nuclear weapons. >> your, nuclear weapons off the table. i have been trying to think how we could use a nuclear weapon in the middle east and in europe. why put it on the table? >> i said i would be very, very slows and hesitant. >> why wouldn't you say, i don't want to talk about it. >> we were talking about nato. >> where would we drop a nuclear weapon in the middle east? >> somebody hits us, you wouldn't fight back? >> no. you drop a nuclear weapon -- >> you don't want to say take

everything off the table. you're not a good negotiator if you do that. >> just nuclear. >> nuclear should be off the table. would there be a time when it should be used? possibly. >> when you say that, david cameron heard it. the guy running for president of the united states talking about maybe using nuclear womeapons. nobody wants to hear that. >> why do we make them? >> i would be the last one to use nuclear weapons. >> can you tell the mideast that we're not -- >> i would never say that. i won't take anything off the table. >> you might use in it europe? >> no. i don't think so. >> then the just say it. >> i am not taking cards off the table. >> the newsiest part of interview involved his are answer on abortion. he said women who have abortions should receive some form of pickup truck. it began wi-- punishment.

>> what do you think about women's rights and their right to choose? >> as you know, i'm pro-life. i think you know that. and with exceptions. with i'm pro life. i think you know that. and with exceptions, with the three exceptions. but pretty much that's my stance. is that okay? do you understand. >> what should the law be on abortion? >> well, i -- i have been pro life. >> i know. what should -- i know your principle. that's a good value, but what should be the law? >> they've set the law, and, frankly, the judges -- i mean you're going to have a very big election coming up for that reason because you have judges where it is a real tipping point, and with the loss of scalia, who was a very strong conservative, this presidential election is going to be very important. because when you say what's the law, nobody knows what the law will be. it depends on who gets elected because somebody is going to appoint conservative judges and somebody is going to appoint liberal judges. >> i have never understood the

pro life position. i understand the principle, it is human life as emcee it. >> which it is. >> what crime is snt. >> well, it is human life. >> no, should the woman be punished for having an abortion? >> look -- >> this is not something you can dodge. >> no, no. >> you say abortion is a crime or murder, you have to deal with it under the law. should abortion be punished? >> well, people in certain parts of the republican party and conservative republicans would say yes, they should be punished. >> how about you? >> i would say it is a very serious problem, and it is a problem we have to decide on. it is very -- >> but you're for banning it. >> wait, are you going to say put them in jail, is that the punishment you're talking about? >> no, you say you want to ban it. what does it mean? >> i am pro life, yes. >> how do you ban abortion? how do you do it? >> you go back to a position like they had where people will perhaps go to illegal places -- >> yeah. >> but you have to ban it. >> you ban it and they go to somebody who flunked out of medical school. >> are you catholic? >> yes. >> how do you feel about the catholic church's position?

>> i accept the teaching authority of my church on moral issues. >> do you necessary their position on abortion? >> i do. >> and do you concur with their position. >> i concur with their moral position, but i get to the question -- here is my problem -- >> no, no, let me ask you. >> it is not funny. >> it is really not funny. what do you say about your church? they're very, very strong. >> but the church make their moral judgment, but you running for president of the united states will be chief executive of the united states. do you believe in punishment for abortion, yes or no as a principle? >> the answer is there has to be some form of punishment. >> for the woman? >> yeah, there has to be some form. >> ten years? >> that i don't know. >> why not? you take positions on everything else. >> i do take positions on everything else. it is a complicated position. >> you say blunltly you're pro life, meaning you want to ban it. >> the catholic church want is against it. >> don't talk about my religion. >> you say you're a good catholic. >> i didn't say very good. let me ask -- you're running for president, i'm not. what should a woman face if she

chooses to have an abortion? >> i'm not going to do that. i'm not going to play that game. >> game? you said you're pro life. >> i am. >> that means banning abortion. >> so is the catholic church. >> but the church doesn't control the government, this isn't spain. >> what is the punishment under the catholic church. >> let me give you something from the new test meant, render unto caesar the things that are ceaseans and unto god the things that are god's. you say you want to be president, what does it mean when you say you're pro life? >> i am pro life. i have not determined what the punishment should be. >> why not? >> i haven't determined it. >> you should have thought of it. here is my problem -- if you don't have a punishment for abortion -- and i don't believe in it, of course -- people are going to find a way to have an abortion. >> you don't believe in what? >> banning abortion. >> you are against the teachings of your church.

>> i don't want to live in a country fascistic that it would stop a person from thak mayo clinicing that decision. it can be so invasive, a familiar, it would be a society we're not familiar and that you're not familiar with. >> you're speaking so highly of your religion and church. your church is strongly, as you know, pro life. what do you say to your church? >> i say i accept your moral authority. in the united states the people make the decisions, the courts rule on what is in the constitution and we live by that. that's what i say. >> but you don't live about it because you don't accept it. you can't accept it. you can't accept it. >> let me go back to matters of the law and running for president because matter of the law, and that's what i'm talking about and this is the difficult position you have placed yourself in. by saying you are pro life you want to ban abortion. how do you ban abortion without a sanction? then you get into a tricky question, a fine for what you call murder, a fine for a woman who finds herself pregnant.

>> how about a guy that gets a woman pregnant, is he responsible for an abortion under the law? or he is not? >> it has different feelings, different people. i would say no. >> all right. well, you know, they're usually involved. >> when we return, let me finish with trump watch. you're watching "hardball, a special edition, 20 years of trump."

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as you can see watching donald trump over the years, he's much today as he was before. jumping lightly from one topic to another, engaged in national topics, but only to a degree. when it comes to issues of national life, he spread himself widely, if not deeply. what you don't get from him is a sense he has shown the patience or had the interest to dig into the consequence also of his positions or to absorb the trade-offs that come with them. that said, you can spot the ambition, that unique human ingredient that separates those who achieve the american presidency as well as those who try for it. as we americans take this young, unseasoned presidency to heart and look to its endurance, look to the prospects for the secession, this factor of ambition is dangerous to overlook. as it was in the electoral success of donald trump, who it will be to the success of who comes to challenge him. the man or woman who stands on the stage with trump in 2020 will have one undeniable human attribute, an ego as huge as mr.

trump's. someone able to challenge him not just in intellect or national interest, but in the moment. he or she will have to look him in the eye and take him down face-to-face, matching him point for point, hopefully with the added weapon of the truth. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. ♪ >> tonight on "all in." >> regardless of recommendation i was going to fire comey. i said, you know, this russia thing with trump and russia is a made-up story, it is an excuse. >> while the president makes the case against himself -- >> but i watched his interview, i read the press accounts of his conversations. i take the president at his word that i was fired because of the russia investigation. >> tonight, the reporting that fuels our knowledge of the investigation. >> breaking news tonight. a blockbuster report from the "new york times." nbc news reporting tonight, "the washington post" explosive report that the president of the united states is currently under a criminal inveson