>> 20 years of donald trump. let's play hardball. >> good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington with a special edition of hardball. long before we took up the most powerful office in the world, donald trump established himself as a public fact yur always willing to share husband thoughts about the issues of our time. i've interviewed him more than a dozen times. tonight we're going to look at the donald trump i got to know in these conversations.

let's begin with mr. trump's first appearance on this show back in august of 1998. the topic is bill clinton days after he confessed to his relationship with former white house intern monica lewinsky. let's watch. >> let's talk about the other 52-year-old, bill clinton. what's he need to do? >> well, i don't know. it's so embarrassing, and you really have to say where does it stop? i really like this guy, but you have to say why do they keep revealing the details? he had sex, but now they talk about the kind, where, on the desk, off the desk. it's out of control. >> i haven't heard those parts but do you think he could have gotten away with a complete mea culpa in january. he could have said i'm going to throw all my money on the table and the american people will buy this? >> i would have done something different than what they did. paula jones is a loser, but she may be responsible for bringing

down a president indirectly, and that statement was a bad statement to have been made, and it's proven to be false. >> which statement was that? >> the paula jones in the deposition, which really started this. >> when he denied it, if you're in a hole stop digging? you walk away and say i'm not going to deal. i'm going to drop this line? >> i think the speech after was a disaster. it wasn't the right tone. i'm not sure he should have done it. i'm not sure he shouldn't have just taken the fifth amendment and said i don't get along with this man star. he's a republican and after me. and taken the fifth amendment. it's a terrible thing for a president to take the fifth amendment, but he probably should have done it. i don't think he could have done any worse than what's happened. it's an embarrassment to him. i see him walking around, it's a terrible embarrassment. >> is he going up or down? >> i think the best he can do is tread water for two years. i think he can tread and maybe keep the office and just tread and get out as opposed to nixon

who got out in a harsh manner. it may be worse than that. but i believe the best he can do is tread water. >> did you ever have a flicker when you were waking unwhen you said donald trump, you've won every battle you ever fought, why don't you run for governor or president? >> people want me to all the time. >> what about you? >> i don't like it. can you imagine how controversial i'd be? you think of him with the women? how about me with the women? >> my next was a hardball college tour at his all ma matter at the university of pennsylvania. even back then he was considering a trump for president in the 2000 election. trump was between marriages at the time of our interview. while he was dating the future first lady, there were questions about how he'd handle the office without a first lady. let's watch. >> you have another special guest i'd like to introduce at this time. >> i do. >> i see her. >> my super model. where is my supermodel? melania. this is melania.

stand up. >> and one thing it's safe to say about you, donald, you know the difference between sla vok ya and slovenia. >> i do. >> this is a technical thing, but it's kind of fun. the president of the united states gets an allowance to live off of. they live off us. they have an allowance for parties and whatever, and whenever they pass out the wine glasses and food. the first lady gets to control all that. she has a thing called the east wing. how are you going to handle that? >> well, you know, i got myself into a lot of trouble that i said i could be married within 24 hours if need be -- [ laughter ] >> that's what happens when you go to wharton, folks. it's one of those. but i could handle it. i could handle it very easily. i'm not sure that today being

married, and i really could be married, and it's one of those things, but i just got out of a marriage. >> you'll handle the social arrangements if you get elected president? >> i'll really handle it myself or you'll see what happens. lots of changes could be made. i believe -- in all seriousness, i believe strongly in the institution of marriage. to me marriage is an incredible institution when you get it right. my parents, my father just died, as you probably know, a few months ago. they were married 63 years. they had the most incredible marriage. i think the one thing that my father couldn't believe and didn't understand is how could you get divorced? divorce wasn't a word in his vocabula vocabulary, but it happens. i believe in the institution of marriage. there's nothing better. >> if you're president of the united states -- >> i got a question about that later. >> if you're president of the united states, you expect it will be a first lady joining you

at some point? >> i do. >> melania, could you answer one big question. the only person i can imagine putting jackie kennedy to shame, melania, would you like to be first lady? >> yes, it would be honor to be a first lady, yes. [ applause ] >> thank you. >> in that same 1999 interview, trump said his top concern is commander in chief would be nuclear proliferation. and in particular, preventing a conflict in north korea. now 18 years later trump finds himself grappling with these very issues as president. let's watch. >> if you get to be president, define the anywhere vidnirvana, age of trump? >> well, i think the nirvana would be cleaning the world from nuclear missiles. these young folks in this room, these people are going to have themselves a bigger problem than me or you or anybody else. frankly, you have north korea

that's just loading up with nuclear warheads. you have other countries, china. you have russia, has them and they don't even know who is controlling them. i think it's singly the biggest issue out there, and somebody has to talk about it. i brought it up. people don't like mentioning it. but that really has to be done. >> let me ask you about things that loom ahead. you're president of the united states. you get a call from the cia chief who says i have to come over. he shows you paper that shows the north koreans are ready to move. they're going to use their tunnels and perhaps the threat of nuclear and their army mastered the border. they're ready to move. how would you deal about a situation like that? >> i'd have to see where they are and how the south is reacting, because obviously the south is going to have something to say about it. i will tell you that -- and i alluded to it at the beginning. north korea, in my opinion, is probably our single biggest problem right now. >> would you send a threat of saying if you move, we move,

you're gone. >> i won't signal anything, but to be honest, something to going to have to be done with knot korea. they're out of control and unstable. something is going to have to be done. >> trump joined me next in april of 2001 to discuss george w. bush's first 100 days in office. he gave the new president high marks and contrasted bush's style with bill clinton. >> mr. president trump, it seems to me have a president different than other guys in office. he's not a political junkie. he doesn't talk about politics like a senator. he's inarticulate. he's an mba guy. he's a harvard business guy. do you have a sense he's running this more like a business, the white house now? >> well, i think it's running it very well. i think he's stepped up and is doing a good job. he's had turmoil that weren't

anticipated but she's stepped up to the plate and is becoming presidential. and he's doing a good job. >> if you had to do a scouting report on a chief executive, how would you compare him and the president we had for eight years? >> you're talking about opposites. bill clinton was comfortable, very everything, but a lot of people were extremely upset with him and especially the why he got out. i like him very much, but i know of mark ridge. to give him a pardon was just something that was inexcusable. i think that we're dealing with very opposites, and i think that's that's what the electorate wanted. that's what they got. >> do you ever sense hillary clinton has moved into her own politically, not her marriage, but as a person, and she's now dropped the booster rocket completely. bill is not part of the scene. >> well, i think she is very much. i think she very much loves him.

she's had to go just on a personal basis, which is probably more interesting to most of the people. i'm sure to all your viewers. she is totally in love with this man, but she's had a tough time of it. there's no question about it. >> do you think that pardon for mark ridge which you think wasn't a good idea, do you think that hurt her in new york in. >> i think it hurt her. i think it really hurt him. people that were really backing him and willing to give him the benefit of the doubt said at the end, we've had it. and it was sad. i like him so much. i think he's terrific in so many ways, but it was just a culmination of so many different things, and i have friends that no matter what he did, it was okay. when he did that, they just gave up. and it was a very sad thing. >> that same year 2001, trump joined me again by phone six days aftthe attacks of 9/11. here's what he said about rebuilding downtown new york and how new yorkers pulled together amid the devastation. >> we have on the front right

now new york real estate developer donald trump. mr. trump, let me ask you the question, rudy giuliani said the best thing america can do for new york is go to new york and spend money. >> i think that's true. a lot of people are out there today. a lot of people are proud to be new yorkers, and very proud to be in this country. generally speaking. i mean, it's been amazing. there's been an amazing show of confidence and faith, despite what happened with the rm 700 point market down. >> i'm usually shocked negati negatively, but the way everybody seemed to pull together, it wasn't like who's the cop, the farmer, the rich real estate developer, the stockbroker? everybody seemed to be on the same level. tell me about your thinking. >> it's a truly great city. people here know it. it really is a truly great city. i think they've really proved it this week.

our firemen and policemen, these people are so brave. it's unbelievable what they've done and what they're doing. i watched a dig out the construction workers, i've never seen anything like it. it's a tragic event, but it's somehow pulled the country and new york even closer together. >> do you think new york needs to replace, you need to replace the world trade towers? >> the big question is the tenants. how many tenants and how many feet are you going to build? symbolically it's important. i'm not sure it has to take shape in the same form. the world trade center was never considered an architectural masterpiece until about six days ago. i think we can do better, but i think it's important to rebuild in some form and maybe a much better form, a stronger form than even the world trade center sthchlt. >> coming up, i questioned him through the years about running for president.

he teased the notion many times but his answers to me on the subject could also be surprising. and that's ahead, and this is a special edition of hardball. 20 years of trump. riasis. be the you who shows up in that dress. who hugs a friend. who is done with treatments that don't give you clearer skin. be the you who controls your psoriasis with stelara® just 4 doses a year after 2 starter doses. stelara® may lower your ability to fight infections and may increase your risk of infections and cancer. some serious infections require hospitalization. before treatment, get tested for tuberculosis. before starting stelara® tell your doctor if you think you have an infection or have symptoms such as: fever, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough. always tell your doctor if you have any signs of infection, have had cancer, if you develop any new skin growths or if anyone in your house needs or has recently received a vaccine. alert your doctor of new or worsening problems, including headaches, seizures, confusion and vision problems these may be signs of a rare, potentially fatal brain condition. some serious allergic reactions can occur. do not take stelara® if you are allergic to stelara® or any of its ingredients. most people using stelara® saw 75% clearer skin

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one that keeps you connected to what matters most. welcome back to hardball. 20 years of trump. while we continue our look back on the many interviews i've done with donald trump to see what we can glean watching the evolution of the man who became our 45th president. the attacks of donald trump figured in the presidential campaign which brought him criticism for his attacks on muslims but back then the real estate billionaire took a measured tone and praised on mayor bloomberg someone who was later his critic. listen to this exchange six months after the attack. >> let me ask you about missouri nooi. you're a figure a major personality in new york in the celebrity tulture of new york.

you're part of the big apple. how is that mood of the city changed? is it less frivolous? is it more sober? what's the answer? what's different about new york? >> there's a sadness, but at the same time, i've never seen the spirit that we have in new york today. i think michael bloomberg is doing an amazing job as mayor. he's doing a really great job. i've known michael for a long time. he's going to go down as a great mayor. there's a sadness, but there's a spirit, and i say new york will come back stronger and bigger and better than it ever was before. >> 2016 wasn't the first time donald trump dived into politics. in fact, he spoke of running as far back as 1988. in 2000 he launched an exploratory committee as a reform party committee. in 2003 i asked him if he was still interested in politics. >> you talked about possibly running in 2004 after pulling out last time. are you possibly interested?

i think you're a republican. that's my guess. you wouldn't challenge the president this time, would you? >> no. i never wanted to run. i looked at it because we had polls you did and other people did that showed i would have done well. i love real estate. you said you heard i'm going to run in 2004. i hadn't heard that. >> we dug up an old quote of yours. let's go over that tape. there's an old quote that said you'd take a look at it in 2004. i continue to be interested in the political process and cannot rule out a possible candidacy in 2004. that was you in february of 2000. >> that was a long time ago. i never did run, and i probably never will run. >> take a listen to his answer from the same interview on who he would vote for in hypothetical matchups between the clintons and potential opponents in. >> what about bill don't against mike bloomberg in a mayor race? >> mike is working hard.

he's doing a good job. bill just joined my golf club, so i like him. i like him beyond golf clubs, but he's not running. >> rudy versus hillary? >> that's going to be a very interesting one. you're talking about the presidential. it will be interesting and that could happen. i don't predict a winner but that could happen. >> you don't have a favorite in that race? would you vote for hillary or rudy? >> don't ask me that question. >> a major point of contention throughout the 2016 campaign was donald trump's position on the iraq war. candidate trump repeatedly said he'd been opposed to the war before the march 2003 invasion and often took credit for his vision claiming he knew it would destabilize the region. but back in november of 2003, his position wasn't quite what he said it was. let's watch this exchange. >> this was an elective where the president thought we had to do it. he made a judgment call and took

us into iraq. do you think he'll consider that judgment as the costs rise? >> i don't think he's going to. he's committed to that whole situation. i don't think he will really reconsider. i i don't think he probably can at this point. other people will. you'll find out at the polls whether or not that other people are right. you see more and more doves if you call them doves. the question is whether or not we should have been in iraq in the first place. i don't think this president can do anything about that. he's really on a course that has to stay. >> much more to come from my interviews over the years with donald trump. including what trump thinks makes a good leader and why we elect the presidents we do and the news-making interview we had at the height of last year's primary campaign. this is a special edition of hardball, 20 years of trump. oh, millies. trick or treat! we're so glad to have you here. ♪

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our special edition of hardball 20 years of trump will continue in a minute including the interview i did with him mast l last march when he knocked himself off his game. you're watching hardball, where the action is. i let go of all those feelings. because i am cured with harvoni. harvoni is a revolutionary treatment for the most common type of chronic hepatitis c. it's been prescribed to more than a quarter million people. and is proven to cure up to 99% of patients who have had no prior treatment with 12 weeks. certain patients can be cured with just 8 weeks of harvoni.

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ends sunday. here's what's happening. u.s. officials are assessing the capabilities of ballistic missile that north korea test launched this morning. north korea claims it was an icbm hen says it's a, quote, proud nuclear state snncht. >> a new jersey government shutdown is over at the governor signed a budget passed. the same thing happened in maine

with that state's governor tweeting the maine state government shoutdown is now over. happy fourth of july. now back to hardball. welcome back to this special edition of hardball. 20 years of trump. the year 2004 was a turning point in donald trump's career. a celebrity businessman with a debut of his reality show the apprentice. i spoke with him on the day this show premiered. >> when you fire these people, it's not the same as firing somebody, or is it in real life? >> it's not much different, chris. over the years i have fired a lot of people. you can do it nice. you can do it easy. you can take your time. in the end, or you can do it viciously and quickly, and you're fired. in the end, it doesn't matter. when you fire somebody, they hate you. >> when trump came back to

promote the second season of the show, i asked him about the upcoming presidential campaign. his thoughts on george bush versus john kerry, campaign politics and the war in iraq. let's watch. >> economically, what is the impact of a government that decides to borrow a war to pay for it later? fight now, pay later. >> i don't think it's positive. i think it's been a big negative. if you look at north korea and frankly, i think if the united states used that as a launching base to go into iran and clean out some of their nuclear problems, maybe all of a sudden i'd start to say that was a great move, because we ought to look at iran and we ought to look at north korea and what they're doing with nuclear weapons. >> let me ask you about the this chase people make. what kind of a choice is it? historically, a reelection campaign is distinctive because you have a track record of a guy for four years. is this really what it's about? if the guy's done a good job, or is it a choice question like we

face in other races? >> i think in this case it's both. some people love bush. it's fragmented, but it really is both. people love him, and the job he's done and other people can't stand him and the job he's done, and people are very mixed on kerry. i sat through the convention in new york, and they did a great job, the republicans, but maybe the greatest spin i've seen on anything is it's almost coming out that bush is a war hero and kerry is not. i think that could be the greatest spin i've seen. >> because? >> the whole thing with the swift boat group which obviously is being done by bush and bush's people, happened to be brilliant. they've taken that war hero away from kerry and almost given it to bush, and bush, frankly, was not serving. that we know. >> let me ask you about perhaps what you might call unnecessary roughness in politics. this week the vice president, a tough guy, said if the american people elect kerry, we're basically going to face ourselves with the threat of a

devastating attack. he's saying vote democrat, you're going to get attacked. >> it's a terrible statement unless he gets away with it. the other side doesn't seem to be hitting very hard. the republicans are hitting much harder than the democrats. it's a terrible statement unless -- let's see how the other side handles it. after two days i haven't seen much handling. >> it's a terrible attack because it means you believe the other side just by its election would endanger the country? >> just take a look at that whole premise. 9/11 happened during the bush administration. why don't somebody attack it? i'm just saying it's amazing. he made that statement two or three days ago and i haven't heard anything to knock him. it's really amazing when you think of it. >> if you were the corner man, i know the contender is coming, the program you're going to be producing. if you were a corner man for kerry right now, what would you tell him to do, quit, change, get tough, be visceral, be

spontaneous, be something you're not? how can you change this guy to a winner? >> i know him. he's a very capable guy, and every election least losing until the end. he was losing the primary, and he ended up winning easily. and if you go back four weeks before the primary, he was out of it. people weren't even talking about him and he ended up winning. he was also losing for the senate to governor weld and it was not even going to be a contest. he had 30% of the vote to 70%, and he ended up killing him. the guy has a way of coming back. don't just think that he's going to go away. he's a very capable guy. but the republicans, so far, have just been decimating the democrats, and i think kerry has to go out and do his thing. he's fine at it. he's won lots of elections. but it's interesting inform he has come from behind on many elections. >> why is he putting out even now a confusing position on iraq? >> i think the whole campaign so far as far as i'm concerned has been confusing. he ought to say something and

frankly, i think what would be really want to hear is we're getting out of there as quickly as possible. i think that's what people want to hear. >> you don't think they care if he's for the war or not? because that's unclear. >> so many things could happen. i was asking somebody today why can't they find a 66 arab named osama bin lieden? he's 6'6". he's on a dialysis machine and we can't find him, and then you see him on television. if i'm on television, they track me. we can't track this guy? now, if bush found him prior to the election, the election is won. then i would tell kerry, you might as well give it up because the election is won. a lot of things can happen that can have positive and negative on both parties. >> after that election i asked trump for his take on the economy, domestic and international and got a look at how he'd handle one government program if we were president. >> i only got a couple minutes

left. i want to ask you about my three big concerns. the dollar. are you worried about them letting it tip too low in the world market? >> the dollar is keeping the economy good. people are coming to new york and buying apartments in new york. the dollar, it's a horrible word when they say the low dollar, the cheap dollar. that's a terrible word to use, but the fact is it happens to bring a lot of business into this country. >> but it's great to travel in this country. it's a terrible situation to travel oversees. >> it keeps people here. i'm not sure that's bad. >> you're not worried there will come a time when the people who are lending us money will simply say i don't like the value of the dollar. i'm getting out, and then we're in big trouble with a bank run on u.s. paper. >> i don't see it happening. this is one country that it's not going to happen to. having the dollar where it's a reduced value, it sounds terrible and you hate to say it, but the fact is it brings business and it's good in terms

of what we all do. >> you expect they'll keep this policy? >> i think they're going to keep the policy. i think the dollar is probably going to inch up a little bit, and that's not so bad. the worst times we've had is when you've had a strong dollar. nothing came in and having a strong dollar, it sounds good, that one sounds great but nothing happens good for the country. >> what about when you compound the situation by a big, long-term borrowing situation in addition to the couple where borrowing about $600 billion a year now. what happens when you add to that the big money we're going to have to borrow to carry social security into a new form of individual accounts? that means big short term deficits for the federal budget. does that take us over the tipping point with regard to the value of the dollar? all that borrowing? >> we've had the deficits before. we're going to have them again and for a while. the war is costing a tremendous amount of money, far more than anyone ever thought. the key is as long as interest rates stay low. if interest rates are low, we'll

be fine. if interest rates go up and the dollar goes up, that's a devastating combination. >> how do you avoid rising interest rates? >> it's interesting. i've been asking that for the last year. rates are still low. they continue to be low, and i'm happy about it. because i can tell you the real estate industry, the entire so many different industries, if rates go up, they're going to collapse, and it's not going to be good. if we can keep the dollar pretty much where it is, even a little bit higher is fine, and interest rates keep low, we're going to be in good shape. >> you're not afraid this isn't just another bubble situation where it doesn't go wrong until it does and then it's really bad? >> at some point, it always goes wrong. no matter where, no matter when, it always goes wrong. we've been riding song good and strong for a long period of time. at some point, things will happen, and they won't be pleasant, and you know what? we'll get out of them and it will be lart. >> if you were president of the united states, would you push individual retirement accounts for social security? >> i sort of think i would.

something has to be done. social security is a huge problem right now, funding it, and something is going to have to be done. it has to be done quickly. i think they're moving on different methods, but something is going to have to be done rather quickly. >> in 2005, donald trump was back. this time to promote his plan for the world trade center site to rebuild the twin towers. he had some harsh words for the planned freedom tower now called "one world trade center". >> will you lead a coalition to stop the governor from his strong support for the freedom tower? >> there's not much of a role i can take. it all started when the new york post called me and asked my opinion. i'm the biggest developer in new york. i've done just about, i guess, everything you can do in the world of real estate. i see what's happening down there. it's a mess. it's a shame. it's really a shame. we have a great opportunity, and, you know, the terrorists win. if we build this job the way it is, the terrorists win.

if we rebuild the world trade center but a story taller and stronger, then we win. i mean, i don't want to have the terrorists win, chris, and that's what's going to happen if we build this pile of junk. >> up next, i grill trump on the issue that fuelled his political rise. his embrace of birtherism. plus one of the rare times trump was cornered in an interview when i pushed him last spring on the red hot issue of abortion rights. this is hardball, where the action is. so when i need to book a hotel room, i want someone that makes it easy to find what i want. booking.com gets it. and with their price match, i know i'm getting the best price every time. now i can start relaxing even before the vacation begins. your summer vacation is very important. that's why booking.com has great offers up to 40% off now through july 4th. find great deals now at booking.com. booking.yeah! what's going on? oh hey!

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welcome back to this special edition of hardball 20 years of trump. donald trump's political rise coincided with his embrace of the birther movement, the bogus claim that president obama wasn't born in the united states. as he campaigned for president in 2015 and 2016 president trump refused to disavow his past comments. after a republican primary debate i interviewed the candidate and pressed him on the topic of birtherism. let's watch. >> okay. i want to ask you a last question before you leave. is donald trump honest when he says braum isn't a legitimate president? >> i knew you'd ask this question. >> you can't stop me. >> no, i can't. i should not tell you this, but i do watch you a lot. i knew you were going to ask this question, and i'll say i don't talk about that anymore. >> you get to answer the questions you like?

>> by the way, this guy is a total professional. >> okay. >> here's the story. i don't answer because if i do answer, that's all people want to talk about. so i never answer it. >> you're going to have to answer it in a general election. >> you are going to take the oval office when the president of the oval office is ill legitimate. >> once i answer it, they don't want to talk about the economy. >> we catholics believe in confession. you say you were wrong own move on. >> did you have a good time? was it a good interview? >> yes. >> i watch you for a longer time, but thank you, mr. trump. >> we'll do it again. >> i think that's a blemish. i think it's your original sin. >> i know how you feel. i understand. >> our president should be respected and i think there's an ethnic aspect to it. i don't like it. he's african american and we're saying he's not a real president. i don't like that. it's not a good thing about you, but you're a mixed bag. i'm allowed to say you're a

mixed bag. >> i understand. >> in march of 2016, candidate donald trump joined me for a hardball college tour. he made news on a wide range of topics. early on i asked about his call to ban muslims from coming to the united states. let's talk act isis. it's the number one isis concern of a lot of people. how do you beat people? when we fought the armies, they put their hands up at the end. >> called uniforms. >> how do you fight people who wrap themselves in dynamite, they brush their teeth, shave, and they go off to the airport with the idea of blowing themselves up, killing themselves that day, that morning, how do you beat an army like that? this is something we haven't dealt with before in our history. >> we have to be tough and vigilant and do things we've never done before. >> but they want to die for their cause. >> maybe they do. some of them do. a lot of people are trying to

figure out why and how they do this. >> they're recruited? >> are they drugged out when they do it? what's going on when they walk in and blow themselves up? are they drugged out? there's a lot of things going on. when i talked about we have to be very careful, because we have people coming into this country, it's a very bad situation. we have thousands and thousands of people coming into our country. we have no idea where they come from, who they are. >> oftentimes it's the second or first generation. it's not the first wave of immigrants. these people in belgium have been living there. they were born there how do you deal with that? >> look at the boston bombers. they came here as young kids, and they became radicalized. >> does banning their entry into the country encourage them to be on our side or the other side? >> i think banning until we figure out what's going on is an important thing. i take a lot of heat for it. a lot of people like me for it,

but there's something going on. >> but the muslim are all getting the message from donald trump saying stay out of my country. how does that encourage them to fight isis? >> here's why. they have a problem too. >> if we say go away zblsh people are saying what you're doing is a great thing. i have a lot of friends that are muslim, and they call me. in most cases they're a rich muslim, but they do call me. >> how do you let them in? >> you'll have exceptions? >> wait. >> look, chris, with the san bernardino situation, many people saw that apartment with bombs all over the apartment, bombs on tables. >> if you see something, say something. >> not and person, they said it's racial profiling. they said that because some lawyer said you saw this, you'd better come up with a good excuse. they said it's racial profiling. a lot of people saw what was going on in that apartment. not one muslim. >> i'm with you on this.

but that's not the question. >> why didn't they report them? >> you say ban them from the country. they get the message. 1.6 in indonesia, albania, anywhere there's muslims, you don't want them. they're a little more ill disposed to fight isis when they say america doesn't want us. >> maybe they'll say we want to come back to america and we have to solve this problem. >> cruz wants patrol cars driving down neighborhoods with muslim people looking into windows for plotting. that's insane. these aren't street criminals. we're going to go up and down the streets. that will make them more militants against us. >> he's toughening up his stance. i think we have to look at the mosques. i think we have to be extremely careful. >> we're making enemies here. >> we're making enemies by doing nothing. we're knocking down world trade

centers and shooting planes into the pentagon. probably the other plane was going toward the white house, but what are we going to do? sit back and say we want to be nice to everybody? we can't be so nice. >> i asked him about his past talk on nuclear weapons. he said he wouldn't rule out using a nuclear weapon against isis. >> your most controversial suggestion was don't take nuclear weapons. you may have been hooked into this by a press conference. i even tried to think how we could use a nuclear weapon in the middle east or in europe in fighting isis. why put it on the table. >> i said i would be very jshs very slow and hesitant. >> say i don't want to talk about it. presidents don't talk about the use of nuclear weapons. >> the question was asked and they were talking about nato. >> maybe? where would we drop a nuclear weapon?

>> somebody hits us with a nuke, you wouldn't fight back with a nuke? >> no -- >> first of all, you don't want to say take everything off the table. >> just nuclear. >> nuclear should be off the table. but would there be a time when it could be used? >> the trouble is the whole world heard it. they're hearing a guy running for president to the united states talk of maybe using nuclear weapons. nobody wants to hear that. >> then why do we make them? >> because -- >> i was against iraq. i'd be the last one to use the nuclear weapons. that's like the end of the ball game. >> could you say you'd never use them? >> i would never take any of my cards off the table. >> how about europe? >> i could not -- >> you might use it in europe? >> no. >> then say it. >> i am not taking cards off the table. >> the news west part of the interview involved his answer on abortion. he said women who have abortions

should receive, quote, some form of punishment. it began with a question from a young woman in the audience. >> what is your stance on woman rights and their right to choose in their own reproductive health. >> you know, i am pro life. i think you know that. and i've -- with exceptions, with the three exceptions. but pretty much that's my stance. is that okay? do you understand? >> what should the law be on abortion? >> i have been pro life. >> i know your principal. it's a good value, but what should be the law? >> they've set the law .frankly, the judges -- you're going to have a very big election coming up for that reason because you have judges where it's a real tipping point. >> i know. >> and with the loss of scalia, who was a very strong conservative, this presidential election is going to to be very important. when you say what's the law, nobody knows what the law is going to be. it depends on who gets elected because somebody will appoint conservative judges and someone

will -- >> i've never understood the pro life position. i understand the principle. it's human life as people see it. >> it is. >> well, what crime is it? >> well, it's human life. >> no, should the woman be punished for having an abortion? >> look -- >> this is not something you can dodge. if you say it's -- abortion is a crime or abortion is murder, you have to deal with it under the law. should abortion be punished? >> well, people in certain parts of the republican party and conservative republicans would say yes, she should be punished. >> what about you? >> i would say it is a very serious problem and it's a problem we have to decide on. >> but you're for banning it. >> are you going to say put them in jail? >> no, i'm asking you. you say you want to ban it. what does that mean? >> pro life, yes. >> how do you ban abortion? >> you'll go back to a position like they had where people will, perhaps, go to illegal places. >> yeah. >> but you have to ban it. >> you ban it and they go to somebody who plunked out of

medical school -- >> are you catholic? >> yes. >> how do you feel about the catholic church's position? >> i accept the teaching authority of my church on moral issues. >> do you know their position on abortion? >> yes, i do. >> do you concur with that position? >> i concur with their moral position, but legally -- it's not funny. >> it's really not funny. >> what do you say about your church? they're very, very allowed -- but the churches make their moral positions, but you are running for the president of the united states. do you believe in punishment abortion? >> there has to be some form of punishment. yeah. let me just tell you, that i don't know. >> you take positions on everything else. >> i do take positions on everything else. it's a very complicated position. . >> but you say bluntly you're pro life. >> but the catholic church is pro life. >> we're not talking about any religion. >> you say you're a very good catholic. >> i didn't say very good. i said i'm catholic. i'm asking you, what should a

woman face if she chooses to have abortion. >> i'm not going to do that. i'm not going to play that game. >> game? you said you're pro life. >> i am pro life. >> that means banning abortion. >> so is the catholic -- >> the church doesn't control the punishment. >> what is the punishment under the catholic church. >> let me give you something from the new testament. don't ask me about my religion. i'm asking you, you want to be president of the united states wsh you tell me what the law should be. just tell me what the law should be. you say you're pro life. >> i have not determined -- i am pro life with exceptions. >> what does that mean? >> i have not determined what the punishment would be. >> why not? >> because i haven't determined it. >> when you decided to be pro life, you should have thought it. >> no, you can ask anybody who is pro life and they haven't determined in it. >> people are going to find a way to have an abortion. >> you don't believe. >> what? >> i don't believe in punishing anybody for having an abortion. i think it's a woman's choice. >> so you're against the teachings of your church? >> i believe i have a few, a

moral view, but i believe we live in a free country and i don't want to live in a country that can stop a person for making that decision. that would be so invasive. so -- donald trump, you wouldn't be family with a society like that. >> i hear you speak sog highly about your religion and your church. your church is very, very strongly, as you know, pro life. >> i know. >> what do you say to your church? >> i say i accept your moral authority. and the united states, the people make the decisions, the courts rule on what's in the constitution and we live by that. that's what i say. >> yeah, but you don't live by it because you don't accept it. you can't accept it. you can't accept it. >> can we go back to matters of the law .running for president. matters of the law, what i'm talking about, and this is the difficult position you placed yourself in. by saying you're pro life, you want to ban abortion. how do you ban abortion without some kind of a sanction. then you get into a tricky question if it's sanctioned. a fine on human life, which you call murder. a fine. imprisonment for a young woman

who finds herself pregnant. >> with it will have to be derld. >> what about the guy that gets her pregnant, is he responsible for the abortion under these decisions? >> different feelings, different people. i would say no. >> well, they're usually involved. when we return, let me finish with trump watch. you're watching hardball, a special edition, 20 years of trump. ♪

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trump watch monday, july 3rd been 2017. acid you can see watching trump over the years, he's much as he was before, jumping from one topic to the other, engaged in national topics, but only to a degree. when it comes to issues of national life, he spread himself widely if not deeply. what you don't get from him is the sense had that he's shown the patience or have the interest to dig into the consequences of his position or to a absorb the tradeoff that's come with them. that said, you can spot the ambition that unique human ingredient that separates those who achieve the american presidency as well as those who try for it. as we americans take this young, unseasoned presidency to heart and look to its endurance, look prospects for the success job, this factor of ambition is dangerous to overlook. as it was in the electoral success of donald trump, so will it be to the success of who comes to challenge him. the man or woman who stands on the stage with trump in 2020 will have one undeniable human attribute, an ego as huge as mr.

trump's, someone able to challenge him not just in intellect or in the national interest, but in the moment. he or she will have to look him in the eye and take him down to face, matching him point for point hopefully with the added weapon of the truth. that's "hard ball" for mow. thanks for being with us. good morning and happy fourth of july. i'm chris jansing. we begin with some stunning breaking news. the u.s. now weighing its response after north korea launched what it describes as its first successful test of an intercontinental ballistic missile. the kind of weapon that could ultimately hit the u.s. with a nuclear warhead. that move creativing a complex and high consequential series of decisions just ahead of president trump's big trip to the g20 this week. we have this story covered from all angles. hans nickels is in washington. garrett hague is at the