relevant, kind of big and semi important. oh yes. the president's meeting with that guy. vladimir putin. a meeting that lasted two hours. somehow i don't think mcmaster and cohen forgot to mention putin or in the entire op-ed. but somehow every part was mentioned except that two and a half hours. be back tomorrow with more mtb daily see you then. inkts i'm with msnbc live president defending his son's secret meeting with a russian lawyer. the the president telling his reporters his son is a good boy. and speaking in paris for the first time about the meeting when his son was spegting incriminating dirt on hillary clinton. >> i think from a practical standpoint most people would have taken that meeting. it's called opposition research or even research into your opponent. i've had many people i have only

been in pliks two years. but i've had many people call up oh gee we have information on this factor or this person, or frankly hillary. that's very standard in politics. politics is not the nicest business in the world. but it's very standard where they have information and you take the information. honestly i think the press made a big deal over something that really a lot of people would do. >> taking op o research in standard. but from a russian lawyer connected to the kremlin is not. what about the line i've had many people call up offering information. what does he mean by that? thement also downplayed the substance of the meeting. >> as far as my son is concerned, my son is a wonderful young man. he took a meeting with a russian lawyer, not a government lawyer, but a russian lawyer. it was a short meeting. it was a meeting that went very,

very quickly, very fast two of the people in the room i guess one of them left almost immediately and the other one was not really focused on the meeting. >> the two other people in the many room the president's campaign manager paul manafort and his son-in-law and senior adviser jared kushner. nbc hallie jackson live for us in paris. hallie all of the stuff we heard from the president happened in paris. something he was hoping to not have have to deal with upon an international trip where he tends to control a little more of the agenda. >> you nailed it, the last two over seas trips the first two overseas trips, he was able to leave the united states and to at least some degree leave sop of the problems domestic controversies back on the other side of the ocean. in time, though, that is clearly not the case. he was press bd the meeting as you just played the meeting about his son's meeting, side by side with president macron. he is headed back to the united

states tomorrow he has the military parade in the morning. he is back from dinner at the identifile tour. we intent expect to see him now until the bastille day celebration. but this is certainly sog dominating the coverage in addition to some of the policy he talked with emmanuel macron particularly on counterterrorism and the real disagreements on climate which don't seem to be going anywhere despite the president's semi waves waffle and whether or not he wants to renegotiate the paris accord and what that could mean. >> hallie, i appreciate the light show you organized for the tower over your right shoulder. >> you're welcome for you. >> good to see you as always. we'll talk to her again tomorrow. where was president trump during the meeting? he says he didn't know anything about it miss former kpanl manager moments ago spoke to chucked todd. >> do you know the reason you weren't in the meeting.

>> i wasn't in invited in the meeting. i wasn't on the email chain. i wasn't even made aware of the meeting. what i remember on this particular day that was a day donald trump was doing a rally in the state of florida. i traveled with the president that day. >> okay here what we know the president did not actually have alrally in florida on the day of the donald trump jr.'s famous meeting. he was in new york city and attended an event at the four seasons. he left that event after 1:00 p.m. 1:07 to be exact he headed back to trump tower. just blocks away. donald's jr. neegt was scheduled for 4:00 p.m. that day. was the president at trump tower during the meeting? we don't know but a whole lot of people would like to find out. williams congressman terrie suele who serves on the house intelligence are committee. a former acting director of the cia, john. are congresswoman suele thank you for being with us. this has beenator enof information in the last 48, 72

hours. what do you make of it? >> listen i think we're waiting with baited breath for the another shoe to drop. another day in the administration. it's really inexcusable that we would just be finding out about this meeting. >> what do you say to people out in america who say look they need other stuff kun. they need health care one way or the other taken care of. they need the government to have other agendas and this is parcel perilsizing washlt. >> it's so important we get back on track with health care. when i think about the fourth of july break that i just had with my constituents while they were concerned about the russia interference they were more concerned about health care, what possibly could happen with tax reform. but you know i think it's important that the house intelligence committee is back on track, that we are now continuing our investigation. i know that we had a a little bit of a rough start. but it's important to get to the bottom of how russia interfered

in the election. and most importantly how will we prevent it from happening again. we know it's happening again. so i think that it's paramount that we on the house intel committee get back to oversight responsibilities when it comes to this. and yes i know the american people are quite concerned about health care and they should be. but i think that we can walk and chew gum at the same time. >> this is where we bring john mclaughlinen in. john let's ask about this. it's two different issues. there are valid reasons i'm discussing later in the show why russia would really like the sanctions that were imposed post crimea lifted and the magnitsky act sanctions lifted. but that's very different from whether or not and why they would interfere in a u.s. election. is that distinction clear to the intelligence community? and how do you interpret this business of donald jr. taking a meeting with something he thought had incriminating information on hillary clinton? >> well, i'm just thinking of

what the president just said, aly. first he said that this wasn't really a russian government lawyer. it was a russian lawyer. but if you look at that email chain, whatever this lawyer was said to be bringing traces back to the russian government because presumably it was information, had it occurred that came through the russian prosecutor who would have only gotten it from the russia. government. that's the first thing. this lawyer was a pawn in the scheme. and the second thing was he said nothing happened in the meeting. in a way that's not the point. if you just erase everything from your mind that's occurred in the last week and we didn't know about this, at this point the russians would be in possession of compromat. the they will they would be in apologizes of an email showing them helping the campaign and a

member of the president's family embracing the idea. that would go back to the point you just made, could that be leverage they would use later to seek things like lifting of sanctions on ukraine and so forth. and. >> go ahead. >> and in way -- can ifts going going to say in a way, thinking over the whole thing and listening to all of the commentary today on the new york, in a way i think we have arrived at a kind of plateau here whereas we do periodically in the drama we learn a bunch ofs things. we learn first the russians made an offer. second that a member of the president's family embraced it. third, we've known a long time, since january, that the interrelation community believes there was russian interference, fourth the first dump of raeben material to wikileaks occurred 12 days after the meeting. and fifth, the president

frequently during the campaign, publicly and explicitly encouraged the russians. beyond that, there are a lot offer other things we know. >> not being a lawyer or o investigator it's still circumstantial, right. we don't have thing think thing in the middle. there is smoke but we toents have the thing in the mid-zblool you read my mind in a way, because those things i mentioned are all important. but what must now be learned is what is it that connects if anything -- what is it that connects all of those things? and the first thing to look at which you've reported today, that the -- the committees and maybe the special counsel are looking at jared kushner's digital operation during the campaign to see if there was some connection between what we presume the russians were attempting to do and some kind of direction or coordination with the campaign. we don't know that.

>> yeah. >> i'm thirpging that might take to us the next plateau if it occurs. >> let me ask congresswoman sue. . we not rubs you you know you in congress like to get information on your opponents. i don't know at the level of running for congress in your district whether this happens. would you take this meeting and try to remove yourself from being a democrat right now? would you take a meeting with opposition research if if were somebody from outside the country? >> absolutely not. i think it's really naive, at best, and deceptive at worst. in licensing to your exchange recently -- a few minutes ago. it's at trade craft. exactly the russian trade craft is to use folks unwittingly to derive information that they can use against the trump campaign to seek removal of sanctions or whatever their motive may be.

but i think to me what really is damaging to this administration is that this suggests a pattern of deception, that time and time again the administration said there is no russian connections, no russian collusion. and time and time again we find out, oops, there is this meeting that you know that trump junior had a russian lawyer. if you connect the dots it suggests a pattern that is disturbing. and reason we o we must aggressively investigate this. while we can't jump to conclusions we can be deliberate. >> that's a good and important distinction you both made. we are not jumping to conclusions about these things. but there are investigations to to be had. congresswoman terrie suele, john mclaughlin. >> what do these three men have in men, the son-in-law, attorney

general and vice president all questions related to the russia prone. what we're learning tonight. by the way, a new health care bill. why president trump says he is going to be angry at what happens if it doesn't pass. clouds can't connect? michael, can we get this data to...? look at me...look at me... look at me... you used to be the "yes" guy. what happened to that guy? legacy technology can handcuff any company. but "yes" is here. so, you're saying we can cut delivery time? yeah. with help from hpe, we can finally work the way we want to. with the right mix of hybrid it, everything computes. binders, done. super-cool notebooks, done. that's mom taking care of business. but who takes care of mom? office depot/office max. this week, get this ream of paper for just one cent after rewards. ♪ taking care of business.

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there will be many more shoes that drop. that was senator are mcmahon's prediction two days. the shoes are dropping. free falling. skauls for jared kushner to lose security clearance for failing to throes meeting with russians. a meeting with the head of a russian bank tied to vladimir putin in the closed a meeting with the russian ambassador not dhos disclosed. the meeting with the russian lawyer you talking about not throes processed. we're learning contact foreigners more than three. a hundred more. firts reported by "the new york times" and nbc nuss. he supplemented the list of foreign contacts three times. adding more than 100 names. and today new questions for attorney general jeff sessions.

we remember that he also failed to disclose meeting the russian ambassador. today the justice department releasesing sessions disclosure form a question on it, have you or any of your immediate family in the past seven years had any contact with a foreign government? sessions checked no. why? and then there is vice president pence. on a rather odd moment from his spokesperson playing dodge ball. >> did the vice president ever meet with representative he was from russian? >> the vice president is -- is not focused upon the areas where you know on this campaign especially things that happened before he was even on the ticket. >> i've just come back to this question. if it wasn't a private citizen from russia did he ever meet with rebound he was from the praeshen government during the campaign? >> you know, that's stuff that the special prosecutors and the counsels are looking at. >> just to nail this down so we're clear is that a yes or no? did he or did he not? and was it relevant in fact? >> i'm not aware of anything

that i have seen. >> okay. well afterwards he clarified telling nbc news the vice president had no meetings with any individuals associated with the russian government during the campaign or transition. it's a little vague that could open the door to meeting someone not associated with the russian government or someone in that other meeting. >> my son a wonderful young man. he took a meeting with a russian lawyer. not a government lawyer, but a russian lawyer. >> robert deets is a former senior counsel to the cia director and a form interest general at the n. is flt a matthew mill era spoke person under attorney general eric holder. good to see you. robert i'll start with you i have russian officials abrussian government officials. i'm not sure what i'd get for lying about that. >> well it's -- it's puzzling.

and i don't understand why one would not acknowledge it. you know, even an honest mistake raises questions that are hard to answer. and doing it deliberately makes no sense and creates greater complications. i do not understand it. >> matt miller, you've been following this. we've been doing this for months. at some point as i was talking to judge mclaughlinen earlier. ve haven't figured out if there are there there. what could have been discussed through an intermediate aerd with the trump campaign? what does it say to you when we keep seeing the smoke? does it tell that you bob mueller is going to get to the bottom of something. >> i would add one more thing to that. not only do we see smoke increasingly. but we keep seeing the trump officials people in the white house lying about what happened. and that's what makes it even more suspicious. not only do we see reports of meetings that come out.

but we find that jared kushner didn't disclose them on his security clearance forms as you said. we see donald trump jr. lying about the meetings for months and putting out a statement on saturday that the president himself signed off on on that turned out not to be true. you smoke billows out of the house and officials not telling the truth. kwhaes at the bottom. we don't know. but what we found with the first report and see the first sinn fein that the candidate's son himself was willing to accept assistance from the russian government. knowing the government want today help elect his president -- his father president. and the president's defense today was basically saying one o you know what collusion is okay. we don't know anything came out of the meeting. i don't know that we should take denials at face value. we don't know if anything came out of theeth meeting. but the president's defense you heard earlier is him saying collusion is okay anyone would do it. >> this is interesting, bob, because this white house and

this the president is trying normalize this saying this happened all the time. people do it. the president also pointed out this is not a russian government lawyer. this is a russian lawyer. maybe true. but in fact the invitation was accepted on the basis of an el from rob goldstone to donald trump jr. saying it was a russian government lawyer and representing the russian government support for donald trump's campaign. at some point it doesn't sort of matter how donald trump and the white house want to parse in. donald trump jr. we now we have a paper trail took a meeting he thought was representative with somebody who he thought was representative of the russian government. >> no, absolutely. and the fact that he is willing to meet with a representative of the russian government or somebody connected to the russian government is -- is terribly concerning. it seems to me almost anyone would have intuition that maybe that's not a great idea.

>> so what do you -- how much weight do you give to this business of -- i mean you can't say this about paul manafort. because he has been for 40 years he has been in the campaign business. but the naivete. they didn't know better inexperienced politicians new to the business. >> i don't give credence to that. almost any adult would realize that this is probably problematic at best and call somebody call a lawyer, somebody in d.c. to say i've got in possibility. what do you think? >> matthew wab same with you -- you twos are steeped in government process and intelligence and what's right and what's wrong. is there any defense here that the we just didn't know? >> no, i mean the naivete. so what you never worked on a kban you ought to know what's best for the country and what's not. he if the your slowing isn't america first. taking help from a russian

government to help tip the election is not very america first. the idea that a 39-year-old businessman who is grew up in manhattan, traveled the world, doesn't understand that taking help from a russian government in a u.s. election is just wrong? maybe he doesn't know its potentially illegal but just doesn't know it's wrong that it's not the right thing to do. that doesn't pass the smell test. if it gets to the point bob mueller wants to bring a case that won't look compelling to the jury what i would imagine. >> what we have is whether it's more than wrong. we'd love it if the president would admit that much but we don't know what wrong leads to in terms of prosecutions or finding. >> last word, yeah, robert. >> if i could add to that, his son -- he calls him a good boy. is son is more or less the age of the president of france. we're not talking about a teenager off on a toot.

>> good point roberts deet is a jorm counsel at the ns a former. >> thanks for being with us guys. coming up the new angle from president trump on the meeting with the russian lawyer by his son. he is now saying it's lorta lynch's falls. more we we come back. ♪ binders, done. super-cool notebooks, done. that's mom taking care of business. but who takes care of mom? office depot/office max. this week, get this ream of paper for just one cent after rewards. ♪ taking care of business.

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it is hanging by a thread. i'm talking about the senate republican health care bill. protests against today at mitch mcconnell rolled out a new version of the bill. keeping the deep cuts to medicaid but adds the ability for people to buy cheaper plan was less coverage. this bill is already get ago whole lot of criticings. two senators action rand paul and susan collins both saying no. that means if mcconnells loses one more vote, in bill is dead. >> that looks to me more like the bill keeps obamacare than a no voit. >> this is still obamacare light in your view. >> in some ways going beyond.

>> most troubling to me is that the rewrite of the affordable care act is being used to totally revamp a vital entitlement program that has been relied upon for decades. >> it's not the ideal bill i'd like to pass. i suspect there may not be a single senator for whom it's the ideal. >> everybody is looking for an idea that is more republican and does not run into the concept you're taking money from poor people to give it to rich people. there is a lot of desire for that. >> president trump says he will not be happy if obamacare repeal doesn't happen. >> they have to get together and get it done. >> what will happen if they don't. >> well, i don't even want to talk about it because i think it would be very bad. i will be very anglyry. >> someone into knows a lot about health care and predicts. she has worked in the obama administration on the bill.

dr. patel a couple of things susan collins doesn't like the bill for particular reasons. rand paul doesn't like it for opposite reasons for completely different reasons. but the bottom line here is if you didn't like the bill because a whole lot of people weren't getting health care compared to obamacare, there is no reason to like this bill anything more? we're waiting for a cbo score. but it doesn't look like anything substantial has happened that's changing coverage. >> i don't expect the cbo score to change that much. but remember, what's happening now is that a lot of people went in the july 4th recess talking to talk about the medicaid program and all the cuts to the medicaid program. they didn't change a thing about that. >> right. >> and have made -- actually the changes made make things worse. this is actually just going from like really, really bad to really, really, really bad quickly. >> so to lindsey graham's point they're looking for a bill. some people looking for a bill

that doesn't look like you're taken money or health care away from poor people and giving rich people a tax break. they emitted -- the proposal is to eliminate many so of the tax breaks on the wealth. but fundamentally when people talk about obamacare in a death spiral which it isn't, the issue here is that more people benefitted from the medicaid expansion under obamacare than the exchanges we keep talking about. >> right, exactly. and by the way, this bill -- this version actually does cause a death spiral, because by allowing for insurance plans to sell plan that is don't have like a standard benefit package, then -- you actually are selling catastrophic insurance. it's either people healthy or younger or don't raeltz they need health insurance. >> this is part of -- i think the media has so the responsibility here. we've been so much time measuring premiums that went

occupy or down what they don't have is a unit of measure of insurance coverage to compare to. ted cruz's proposal that has gone in means there are insurance companies sell insurance for ten bucks a month much you have smurns that's of little use. under obamacare every policy had to have coverage for the essential health bifurcates, the list of things that happened to people that are expensive. >> right. and not only that there are subsidies that helped you buy those plans. remember they did not change even in this revised version, three did not change the subsidy plan. so it's still the same case we talked about several weeks ago where we pointed out that if you're older and have more problems it's still going to be expensive. >> right if you're not 65 and can't get medicare but you're old enough and you don't get medicaid because you earn enough money that's a problem. quick question for you. there is one big problem with obamacare.

and that is that the inincentives meant that a lot of people paid the fine, paid the penalty didn't get the insurance. it created high risk pools. that's why for a lot of people the premiums went up. is there some logical fix to this the republicans can come up with? >> i mean the logical fix to this is really understanding that more and more people really need to find affordable insurance. so -- it's what i've said before. it's really activating and allowing for the states to more actively negotiate with the insurers to kind of drive down spending. there is no reason people should be paying co-pays for primary care on the opposite end we should be thinking more about how to find better value are from drugs and other things we do. it really is going to take working hand in hand with doctors and the insurance industry, which honestly, makes for really hard politics maybe

hard than the politics in the certificate senate. >> who knew it was so complicated. dr. good to see you. >> today vice president pence was defending the health care plan by saying it would help the poor. >> this legislation gives states all new freedom and flexibility to reform medicaid in ways that will better meet the he had needs of the most vulnerable in those states. >> with me it democratic governor terry mccall i have of virginia in rhode island right now for the start of the national governor's association meeting. good to see you again thank you for being with me. you heard that conversation. >> you bet. >> and there are cowords all over. and give the states freedom and flexibility. i know you governors like freedom and flexibility. you're also getting the bill for in. with the freedom appear flexibility for many states, particularly those medicaid expansion states comes the responsibility to keel with the growing number of people on medicaid and paying for it.

>> well, here is where we are today we have all the governors up here. meeting today through the weekend. i serve as the chairman of the national governors. i've been meeting all day individually with governors. when this plan came out from the senate the i can tell you immediatelies in a nonstarter. hoke us poke us. it's actually worse. as bad as the original bill was this is worse tp take virginia i lose 1.4 billion over the next seven years. the bill that came out hurts people with preexisting conditions. doesn't do anything to help me solve the problem with medicaid. and so this i believe is going to be a nonstarter. the vice president will be here tomorrow. we have prime minister trudeau here tomorrow. secretary price will be addressing us on saturday. guy back to the basic point. when president trump ran for office he said i want health care that covers everyone, less expensive with better results. what we saw out of the senate today and the senate before and the house bill does none of that. work with the governors we

actually run the programs in our states. we have very good ideas. but they have yet to reach out. i am chairman of the national governor's association. they have yet to reach out to us to say what can we do owe do to work with you that's why it's a nonstarter they ought to go back to square one research tout the democrats if the senate. go to regular order. we ought to to be trove a bill, hearing, amendments. and with we need witnesses. we need to protect. health care is a right and what they're doing take o taking health care away from the individuals in america needing it the most to help those at the top who don't need it and it's sad. >> if you take the 35 richest countries in the world 34 have universal health coverage the only wunl that doesn't is the united states. there are 58 countries in the world with some form of universal health coverage when you see prime minister frud o canada has a single payer ier single pay serious one way of getting universal. but all of the country haves something in common np better

health yauk ukt weres for a lot less than l man money on average 60% less. at some point how does that become part of the conversation doesn't matter whether you're republican or democrat the math on getting everybody is covered than the math we use in the united states. zbloots and you hit it right on the head. how do we with get to that? we need a discussion -- how are you doing this without brings the governors in? clearly there has been no outreach to the democratic governors in the country. i can say as chairman of the national governor association. i have not had a single outreach to talk about good ideas. we're doing the best we can in virginia. but nobody is asking us questions. the only way this can happen is to get all of us in the room take the best ideas. they talk about giving waivers and that can help compensate for the loss of medicaid. let me be very clear. waivers are revenue neutral. that is the law today. that does nothing.

it's. hokuspokusp they cut medicaid funding and this he say hope for money in the future. imprison got to deal with people in virginia today dying because they're not getting health coverage they deserve. i'm not betting my citizen's health on some plan in the senate for some hoped-for future benefit. i speak for many of the governors here i got the plan originally early up today. most of the governors have gone through the plan. they didn't like the first senate bill. this one is worse. >> i hope you get something done you got all the governors there. i hope you guys can have a good discussion about this. >> you bets. >> and come up with something because we need a plan b pretty soon, sir. >> goat the democrats and republicaning let's all get in one room. let's take care of the citizen nas should be the goal. >> terrie mccall i have of virginia joining me. >> president trump says he would vft o invite vladimir to the white house would he strike a deal on sanctions? what do we know about what

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syria and more. agreements which the white house says could benefit the united states and one prominent figure holding that view but not part of the trump administration as far as i know, wasn't in to it campaign at any point is steven cohen. a contributing editor for the nation. a professor ee mere tus at russian studies at princeton. i bet you've had meetings with russian and have been completely open about it. >> not only that, but i was thinking the other day having been in russia off and on over 40 years that actually i've met quite a few quote intelligence officers, russians, those i knew to be such pan those i probably did not know to be such. >> right. >> that's a separate story. i got to do the fifth amendment if anybody remember what is that was. you already did part of i have nothing to do with trump didn't support him but i have to say in terms of the nation magazine which my wife he had it's i speak only for myself. >> given how much you know about

rather than, what does russia want? when we're -- >> great. >> let's speak to motivation. whether or not you believe they hacked the election, tried to influence, tried to have this lawyer talk to donald trump jr. what does russia want most right now. >> you're the only person in television that asked me that question in ages because we've been distracted by the other. i can only perceived -- isaac you and my doctor on the basis of facts. i see no facts for what we call russia gate. but it's become a danger to the national security because -- this is a fact -- the relationship with russia today is as dangerous as it's ever been in my lifetime. what does russia want? it doesn't want this relationship. it's bad for russia. it's bad for putin. it's bad for the ambitions put. has to rebuild russia at home. so ifs by russia you mean putin. >> let's put it that way. what does putin want. >> because there are a lot of russians. but the group around him let's say 30 people forming the inner

circle. they began when he came to power in 2000 wanting a relationship with the united states and international favors. he thought he had it. it turned out repeatedly he didn't. now he nifrpgs he will never get the partner spp but he wants this russia gate zprupgs ended because he has serious strategic business to do with the united states. and they have come to believe in the kremlin that our president trump, even though he too wants to do it, might not be able to. that's where things stand in the kremlin today. >> does -- does the kremlin need a strategic relationship with the united states to achieve the other things more than it wants sanctions lifted? because i'm an economics guy in my wormed what putin wants is the sanctions lifted more than anything. >> we won't g.o.a.t. could go to the discourse of the banks thinking russia has rebounded remarkably. pits the european sanctions as you know not the american sanctions that really matter. but what putin wants and the

reernl america really matters is two things. nuclear security. and in our lifetime, the two superpowers have decided whether we're going to have nuclear security or not we don't talk about it anymore. >> they have decided that we had. >> and that it's not as secure as it should be today. you and i would agree. but here is the real issue. here is what we should debate. what is the number one threat to us in the world today? i believe it to be international terrorism in pursuit of radio active material. senator mccain and those people say no, no it's putin and russia. putin agrees generally that the greatest threat is international terrorism. look how many times russia is hit. what he wants from thes united states, number one there is a two, three and four, is an alliance against international terrorism p. thought he had it with with obama he didn't. he is trying again with trump in syria. maybe they agreed in hamburg last week wp. a little hart to tell what they did agree. but that hangs in the balance that would be good. >> you've written and said many

times that you've seen no evidence of russia's involvement in the 2016 election. and you have hung a lot of that on theth fact that the media has reported 17 agencies came to the conclusion when in fact three agencies although the nsa does acts an as umbrella organization. but the 17 agencies co-star. the do you doubt the -- did the few intelligence agencies that have on the basis of their analysts come to the conclusion that russia interfered in the 2016. >> you're talking primarily about the hacking of the democratic committee and giving pout the damaging emails. >> i'm speaking more broadly that russia attempted to influence the outcome of the election. >> all countries try to influence the election. if we talked about it propaganda we do it they do it we can have a debate who does it better. here is what comes down to for me. there is no forensic evidence that the russians hacked the dnc. >> that you andvy even.

>> that's true. but they presented none. more over there is not any evidence it was hacked. some people think it was a leak. the next stage in the drama is what happened to poor general flynn when i went off to see the russian ambassador. but he got a bad rap on that too. i come down like this. what we have no facts for what we call russia gate. but we have facts about the dangerous nature of american russia regulations. if we're a rationale people a media really worried about american priorities and frufrp is a rationale actor we will somehow put aside and give priority to this dangerous relationship with russia which has nothing to do with anybody hacking anybody. >> all right we have to have part two of this another discussion to. >> i'm aggravateful you have you want to have the discussion. >> we will kin the discussion. steven crowen is a contributing editor if he at the nation. and fror of american russia studying. >> from denying collusion to

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>> my son is a son is a wonderf man. i think from a practical standpoint, most people would have taken that maybe. nothing came of the meeting and i think it is a meeting most people in politics would have taken. >> that's not really a fact. we don't know if most people would take that meeting. we're watching the gold post move in real-time. the ever evolving defense from trump allies on the russia investigation. we have the original we didn't do it defense. no collusion to see here. >> when at some point are you going to accept this idea that there was no collusion? >> the entire thing has been a witch hunt and there is no collusion between certainly myself and my campaign. >> this is how i see it so far. this is to help all the people at hole. what is the conclusion?

collusion? no. we don't have that yet. now, maybe there was collusion but hey, it's not illegal. >> i never understood it anyway. what was the collusion? >> is that a crime to say release it? >> to be fair, collusion is not a crime. but the defense certainly shifted. and then there's old favorite, the defense picking up steam. i give you the hillary clinton did it defense. >> democratic party operatives went to the ukrainian embassy to coordinate oppositional research and attacks against our campaign. >> you know, we have this extraordinary double standard where the clintons take millions of dollars, while secretary clinton is okay and the russians getting uranium. >> we know for a fact, that the

ukrainian government was giving information to the clinton campaign and to the dnc regarding what? donald trump. >> more on the clinton defense and how the obama administration was brought into this. yes, you heard that right. coming up next. it's just a burst pipe, i could fix it. (laugh) no. with claim rateguard your rates won't go up just because of a claim. i totally could've - no! switching to allstate is worth it. nitrites or artificial ham has preservatives.tes,

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and headache. tell your doctor about all the medicines you take and if you're pregnant or planning to be. ask your dermatologist about otezla today. otezla. show more of you. >> i see that she was in the halls of congress also. somebody said that her visa or her passport to come into the country was approved by attorney general lynch. now maybe that's wrong. i just heard that a little while ago. i was a little surprised to hear that. she was here because of lynch. >> maybe that's wrong. i just heard it. gaifg shout out, president trump answering questions about his meeting with a russian lawyer by focusing on an official in the obama administration. one of the responses we're hearing from the president and his allies in the latest bombshell news in the

investigation. here to put the pieces together, make some sense of it. lynn sweet with the "chicago sun times," and the national reporter for the "new york times." i hope you brought your "a" game. i don't understand this connection. somebody tweeted a picture of this lawyer who was in a meeting with donald trump jr. sitting behind ambassador mike mcfall at some point, implying some connection. now that she's in america is somehow on the administration. >> the first thing is people who approve visas would be the state department which is not where loretta lynch was heading up. even more we see the trump administration and donald trump himself going back into a corner. when you see it, with james comey, they have this ever evolving explanations for why something is wrong going. in this case, it is because hillary clinton did something wrong, collusion isn't a big

thing. in reality, donald trump jr. was essentially soliciting information from a foreign national and that is in violation in most cases of campaign finance laws. >> just so my viewers know, we all know, positions that russia has legitimate complaints about the way the united states and nato have treated it. but the idea that there's no evidence of real hacking of the election, if we would just get down to business, we have some problems because the elevation of heat between he america and russia that we may be on the brink will real danger. what is your response? >> my response is that you can deal with a lot of matters at the same time. the american government usually has enormous capacity to do that. it happens all the time. that you would have issues, legal issues, political issues, diplomatic issues.

a crisis here, having said that, it doesn't wipe out the problem of wanting to get to the bottom of the question of what role did the russians have in collusion possibly with the trump campaign during the election? you can throw up other issues but that is still a question that is needing an answer. people are working on it. >> so stephen cohen could be right that this is an important time that we develop our relationship with russia on important things including what's going on in syria. but at the same time, in the election, we need to know that as well. what is this business about the president putting smug out there and saying. does that play to the base? >> if it is meant to actually do anything in particular other than he was trying to deflect

from his own's son's issues and blaming loretta lynch for the person being allowed in the united states and let's say the obama white house also had their own problems with russia and also in some ways could be blamed for what's going on. i think donald trump has nld a lot of things. he has gotten away with one, spreading false information but, two lying and getting away with it. that's part of his brand. that i can do these things, i can say these things and people still stick with me and largely he's been right about it. >> it has worked for him. good to see both of you. the national reporter for the "new york times." thank you for watching. i'll see you back here at 6:00 people eastern. i'll see you at 11:00 and 3:00 p.m. eastern. in the meantime, time for

another show. "hardball" starts right now. a lot of people would do it. let's play "hardball." >> good evening. president trump's defense of his son taking that meeting with a russian lawyer linked to the cell lynn. he said today, just about anyone would have done it. even donald trump jr. saying he would have done things different in hindsight. the president telling reporters that his son's decision to meet with a russian lawyer offering what he was told would be dirt on hillary clinton from senior kremlin officials was just standard politics. >> my son is a wonderful young man. he took a meeting with a russian lawyer. not a government lawyer but a