nitrites or artificial ham has preservatives.tes, now it's good for us all. like those who like. sweet those who prefer heat. sfx - a breath of air and those who just love meat. oscar mayer deli fresh. sweet! more than happy to cooperate with everyone. i just want the truth to get out there. that's part of why i released all this stuff today. i wanted to get it all out there. they're trying to drag out the story in all fairness, they want to drip a little bit today. i was like here it is, i'm more than happy to be transparent

about it and more than happy to cooperate with everyone. >> as far as this incident is concerned this is all of it. >> this is everything. >> good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy." that was most certainly not everything because on friday, we learned that there was still a lot about the june 2016 meeting with a kremlin connected lawyer that we had not yet seen. it turns out that lawyer, natalia nitskaya wasn't the only person in the room. alan futurefoss, the attorney for donald jr. told nbc news that she came to the meeting with someone who futurefoss said was introduced as a translator. second person who was later identified as a russian-american lobbyist, a former soviet counter intelligence officer, who some u.s. officials believe has ongoing ties to russian intelligence. he denies any current ties to

russian spy agencies and says he was working on a campaign to roll back sanctions against russians accused of human rights violations. of course there is no mention of that in donald jr.'s email correspondence. what he and the trump campaign were promised in the emails were official documents and information that would incriminate hillary clinton, information that is part of russia and its government's support for mr. trump. an extraordinary offer purr poured from the russian government which apparently raise nod red flags for donald trump jr. who replied "if it's what you say, i love it." this week's revelations were the latest in the trump team's ever evolving explanations about their relationship to russia and we have from we have zero ties to russia to we have ties but it's coincidental from a meeting with one russian to a meeting where according to cnn at least eight people were in the room in trump tower, so now is it time to advance the story of

russianiagate from a question of whether there was collusion with russia to the question of what consequences if any there will be. joining me msnbc contributor malcolm nans and former cia analyst fred flights, senior vice president of the conservative think tank the center for security policy. fred i'm going to start with you. thank you for being here. >> good to be here. >> what do you make of, and does it bother you that you have an american presidential campaign who has three of its principles, including the son of the candidate, meeting with a russian former counter intelligence officer and then not telling anyone about it? >> i want to say up front i think this meeting was a mistake. i think it was a rookie mistake and i think it reflects that the trump campaign really was an insurgency campaign of people without government experience and this is something i would have recommended that they not do, but concerning this american citizen, i know he was a dual national, who was involved in this meeting, i'll tell you in meetings i've had throughout my

25-year government career whenever you meet with russian or chinese government officials, think tankers or lobbyists there's an assumption that some of them are intelligence officers. do you not hold the meeting? sometimes you might hold the meeting but you have to have attorneys present. there have to be note takers who take meticulous notes. those things didn't happen here, again rookie mistake but i don't think this means this was a russian intelligence operation. >> here's the problem with that. if this was the only meeting, if this was the one time that they happened to meet with a russian lawyer that they knew through this pop star and his manager that knows the trump family you could say okay maybe they made one mistake. you have a pattern. i'll put up a time line for you. in may 19th of 2016, paul manafort takes over as the trump campaign chairman, after they pushed out cory liewandowski an june 3rd through 7th emails with

rob goldstone. on june 7th, trump wins five primaries, essentially locks up the nomination and comes out and he says there will be a big press conference in which he promises big damning information on hillary clinton. then you have this meeting at trump tower on june 9th and trump tweets the same day that he tweets about hillary clinton's missing "33,000 emails." then you have on june 15th someone calling themselves guccifer 2.0 releases a dnc opposition file on trump stolen from the dnc, then you have wikileaks july 22nd, july 27th, trump publicly encourages russia to find the emails that are missing and then in september, you have this peter w. smith going digging for the 33,000 supposed emails. you have a pattern of meetings over and over and over again to say nothing of the fact that after the election is over, you have then jared kushner meeting again with ambassador sergei

kislyak and asking for secure communications to keep talking to them out of the earshot of u.s. intelligence. is that rookie mistakes or a pattern? >> well, i think of all the things you listed the only troubling thing -- i don't think it's a pattern, but the goldstone thing sounds troubling. goldstone said that he was trying to set up this meeting because he was trying to provide information on behalf of the russian government but my argument is that goldstone is not credible. is he a playboy celebrity publicist, here is one of many pictures he posted of himself on the internet. >> he was credible to donald trump jr. it sounded credible to him. >> the question is whether this person would have been entrusted by the russian government, here he is posing as miss universe, whether the russian government would trust someone like this with sensitive information about efforts to undermine the u.s. election. >> donald trump jr. trusted him, paul manafort trusted him. >> here he is dressed as a pirate. this guy might have been a flake and a friend of the family but

the russian government would never have used this guy or entrusted him with sensitive intelligence operation. that simply didn't happen. >> malcolm, i'm going to let new on this. the ridiculousness of rob goldstone the main thing we should be focused on here rather than the plain fact? >> i'll give fred an assist he's right, rob goldstone isn't the person they'd use as an asset. he is not the player in this game. he's merely a communications conduit. what they'd use for him for is to send an email to donald trump jr. doing exactly what they wanted done at his bidding. he did it because he's the manager of amin allagarov, very close to vladimir putin. the pathway and he should know coming from, you know, the agency side, if you're going to dangle intelligence out to somebody, some information, that they want, a crowned jewels bit of opposition research, you're going to do it this way, you're

going to be one person out. you're going to use a path of communications they know and trust. you're going to put out there in front of them and you're going to get them in a room and the trump people were the fish who were jumping at that bait, and they jumped at it hard. they wanted it. they went to that meeting. they went there with the intent to get damaging information on hillary clinton, knowing it came from the government of russia. they are now culpable for everything that they've done. this actually meets the standard of conspiracy because you don't have to rob a bank to plan to rob a bank and take the money. this meets the legal standard. anybody who thinks ron goldstone is the main character, you're wrong. >> your response, fred? >> well look, mr. pirate here was not sharing the details of a russian operation to affect the election. >> no one is saying -- >> you mentioned the "new york times" article that cited -- >> he is a conduit for the

meeting. nobody said he is a russian spy. he is the conduit for the meeting. >> how about the email -- >> you're holding the silly picture of him in a pirate outfit doesn't stop the fact the son of the president of the united states sees in an email the russian government would like to provide information. that's an adorable picture. >> thank you. >> it doesn't change the fact that paul manafort, a seasoned political player, that the son of the president of the united states -- >> can i respond? >> no, you cannot until i'm finished answering the question. >> you asked me a question and now you're responding for me. >> took a meeting in which -- >> seems like this is a rigged interview. let me answer the question. >> -- the russian government wanted to provide the information. >> let me answer the question. you're not letting me answer the question. >> the point is the meeting they took, right? >> you do not want the other side of the story get out. >> what other side would there be? >> you mentioned email goldstone said -- >> he is the person setting up the meeting. >> he said in this email this

lawyer was part of an operation by the russian government to help trump. i'm saying this guy would not have known that. >> that is an irrelevant point. >> it is relevant, it is crucial to the story. >> is this crucial to the story? >> oh, so i can't answer any more? >> let me give you an assist here fred, you seem to need the help. you're an agency guy and i'm talking not just to you but to every intelligence officer and watch officer in the world watching this program. we all know that when the opposition from your basic counter intelligence chain and you better remember this, when the opposition puts out a dangle in front of you, it is, the target is the tactic. if they're going after donald trump jr. it tells you everything you need to know about what the opposition wants. when they put out fantastical information that is coming from the government of russia, you should know that this is an intelligence operation, because these things do not happen, as we like to say, coincidences take a lot of planning, and everyone in the community knows

this, and for to you sit here and try to argue against that means that you're going against everything that you've ever been trained to know. neither you nor i would ever allow ourselves to be put in that position and to say that this 39-year-old man is an amateur. he had the former director of defense intelligence agency on his staff as an adviser. so for the most part, i think making that argument is specious, doesn't take the seriousness of this situation into account and discredits and disgraces our intelligence agencies by trying to make this entire operation which now all of our community, your community, my community have determined was a spy operation. we should take it seriously and find out where it all came from. >> let's also get you to respond to the fact, fred, that you now, we now know that trump's adviser and long time friend roger stone appears to have had contact with email exchanges with this person calling themselves guccifer as well as julian assange of

wikileaks. he admitted he had those contacts and we know she is saying she had contact with a top russian prosecutor which was erroneously called the crowned prosecutor which doesn't exist in russia but she says she did have contact with this top russian prosecutor with kremlin ties. the ties are adding up. what do they add up to you if all of these people are having contact with the russian side of the interference in our election? >> i don't think they're adding up. what we have here is a playboy celebrity publicist who likes to hang out with tina turner and miss america contestants who lied to get a meeting with donald trump jr. that he ordinarily would not have held, and i got to tell you that someone who is really involved in this intricate russian intelligence operation would never have sent the email we discussed earlier mentioning this operation exists. this guy was exaggerating. this guy was lying to get his

client in front of donald trump jr. that's what happened here. all this other stuff is fantasy. >> let me ask you a question. it's not fantasy because the meeting took place. in your view, if this person said to donald trump jr., i've got this information from the russian government, what would be the motivation of donald trump jr. to say yes, and take the meeting? >> because donald trump jr. knows this guy is a flake, because he realizes he's exaggerating to get the meeting but he's a friend. he probably said well, look, there's no russian effort to help my father, but look, i'll meet with this guy because he's a friend. there's simply nothing there to connect this as a russian intelligence operation. >> then would wha would be the reason for jared kushner to turn around and meet with the banker, the russian banker at the end and to say we want closed communications that are out of the earshot of russian intelligence. what is your explanation for that? >> the russian banker? >> in december when jared kushner took a meeting in which he said we'd like to have communications off the books, we want to do it in your communications facilities, your

closed communication facilities so that we can talk without a u.s. intelligence hearing, why would he do that? >> first of all looks like we're changing the subject. you're conceding that there's nothing here. >> no, there is, this is the crux of it. >> jared kushner said about this separate line of communications i don't know why he did that. there's obvious there's some trouble with setting up a separate line of communications with a government of an adversary. >> but you don't think there's a problem saying yes i'd like to have a meeting about the russian government providing information about the campaign. >> i think he was looking for opposition information but i don't think anyone in this meeting thought that the russian government was trying to help mr. trmp win the presidency. >> that's disingenuous. come on. >> then why take the meeting? >> opposition research against hillary clinton at a time when the president's campaign was in trouble. >> thank you very much for being here. we appreciate it. fred fleitz, malcolm nance.

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even the goal posts were moved. we were promised systemic hard evidence of systemic sustained furtive collusion that not only interfered with our election process but indeed dictated electoral outcome. >> kellyanne conway is right about one thing, the goal posts are indeed being moved but largely by trump and his supporters. in light of emails showing members of the trump team met with a russian lawyer and a former soviet counter intelligence officer and an interpreter in june of 2016. their new talking points range from collusion, everybody does it. >> this word collusion is all over the place. i mean everybody colludes in this city.

right? i got the left colluding -- >> to well nothing came of the meeting. >> nothing happened from the meeting, zero happened from the meeting and honestly i think the press made a very big deal over something that really a lot of people would do. >> to even well what's wrong with a little help from russia? >> hostile foreign power, do we say you can take information from non-hostile? >> joining me paul butler professor of georgetown law school and sima aier, former civil rights attorney. our previous guest his argument was if the person presenting you with foreign help for your campaign is ridiculous, if there are ridiculous pictures of them, if they are ridiculous it is somehow okay to take information from them even if they're presenting it. i do not understand what his argument was. do you think we have any legal issues in hand?

>> as a former public corruption prosecutor, the statute, the special counsel mueller is looking at is the federal crime of making or soliciting a campaign contribution from a foreign national. solicit just means you have to ask. the actual contribution or the help doesn't have to come through. all you have to do is make the ask. when donald trump jr. reached out and said i would love it if you have this dirt on hillary, that's probable cause right now to charge him with campaign financing fraud >> okay. >> except that he didn't make the ask. donald trump jr. was at the receiving end of possible information. he didn't reach out and get this, and there was no meeting of the minds. there has to be a meeting of the minds between the parties for an actual conspiracy to even occur. >> i want to put this in terms that maybe are a little more understandable for people in this regular world. let's say a friend of yours, some friend calls you up and this say friend you know is an

idiot, somebody you know is foolish and goofy and silly and they say i've got 18 kilos of cocaine and i'm going to meet you, i'm going to set up a meeting for you with my guy who can sell you 18 kilos of cocaine, show up and my guy can get it for you and your ridiculous friend makes that offer to you and you show up to a meeting with their friend to in your mind get 18 kilos of cocaine. the friend isn't the person selling the cocaine. they're saying i've got a friend, they have coke, show up and let's get it. if you show up to the meeting can you be prosecuted? >> i think not. >> haven't people been prosecuted? >> i don't think it rises to the level of an overt act because the product isn't there. >> if you attempt to make the sale, don't people go to jail for that every day? >> sima used to prosecute dope boys in the bronx and we have to look at consciousness of guilt because why did trump jr. lie about this constantly? first he lies and says i never met with the russians and then

he lies and says well i did but it was about adoptions and then he lies and says well okay, we talked about collusion, we talked about russians helping us but it was just me and my boys kushner and manafort and then now -- >> because the meeting didn't go anywhere. >> why has he lied about it? >> one question, sima, how do you know the meeting didn't go anywhere. >> okay, because at this point there has not been any information that came from that meeting that was brought out during the election against hillary clinton. so that's how i know. >> this is element six. the only way we know, the only way that we can believe nothing came of it, we have to take the word of the trump campaign. >> that's right. >> okay. >> here is the word they've given us before. back in january, jared kushner said that he had met with no foreign nationals. so at that point all we knew was jared kushner and the team met with no foreign nationals.

by april 6th, the "new york times" reports there were no foreign contacts. the "new york times" took his word for it, nothing, there was no foreign contact. by may 11, jared curb mer filed a new form, i met with more than 100 foreign nationals so now the new word from jared kushner he met with more than 100 foreign nationals and he didn't mention this meeting. we only found about this meeting in june when he filed a third revision. if you took their word before, you'd think they met with no foreign nationals. >> right and my assessment of jared kushner is bravely different than my assessment of trump jr. and my assessment with trump. so i think each of them are culpable for different actions. >> okay. >> i want to point out that yesterday this new information about the lobbyist who has come forward. i wish we knew that in the beginning because that actually corroborates trump jr.'s argument that part of the meeting was about this magnitsky

act. >> why wasn't it in the email? >> i don't know but it corroborates. >> aren't you taking his word for a lot? >> much. >> they were there at the meeting. >> they've lied before. >> they lie about everything. >> vesselnitskaya was in favor of the act, she is with another lobbyist also part of that endeavor so this corroborates the fact at least part of that meeting was about the magnitsky act. >> this is nancy pelosi congressman nancy pelosi laying out the things she thinks are legally relevant here, it's a long sound bite but i'm going to play it. take a listen. >> donald trump jr., jared kushner, paul manafort and the trump campaign and then we're finding out who else was in the room, this is a campaign violation soliciting, coordinating or accepting something of value, opposition

research, documents and information, from a foreign government or foreign national. plain and simple. criminal conspiracy to defraud the united states impeding the lawful administration of a federal election or to make an offense against the united states, cyber crimes, hacking against u.s. citizens, the clinton campaign. conspiracy with respect to espionage depending on whether information was obtained through russian spying and the level of their awareness of the spying. when i say their, trump, kushner, manafort, et cetera, the awareness of the spying to receive this information. >> i'm going to let you respond, but paul, what do you make of that set of charges nancy pelosi says are relevant? >> leader pelosi is exactly right, that is what special counsel muler is investigating right now and bob mueller please let me come back and do my

prosecution. my opening statement -- >> oh my god you're trying to get a job right now? >> to prosecute the bad guys, absolutely. i'm going to say he said i would love it. i would love this dirt on hillary. he said that to a russian operative. that's not just unpatriotic, leader pelosi is right that's a violation of federal criminal law. >> i don't think it rises to that level yet, if you're receiving information. you're just assessing the information. i don't think it rises to the level of an overt act. >> let me ask you a question, what would they have to do for you to believe crimes were committed? >> i think there would have been some type of information given to the trump campaign from that meeting that was used against hillary clinton in the campaign. >> and what do you make of the fact that there is now part of the investigation now involves whether or not on the american side, meaning in the trump campaign the russian effort to disseminate misinformation, disinformation and to use their hack material was aldaided by members of the trump campaign?

>> it's clear roger goldstone, definitely jared kushner but let me be serious here. there is so much evidence looking negative for the trump campaign, but i also think there has to be some recognition that the players involved may not have told trump himself everything. >> for an entire year? sima -- >> so obsessed with hillary clinton's email. again he has to have known about this meeting. >> i don't think he knew everything. >> i love having you guys. we'll have you back on to have the debate, paul butler "choke hold policing black men" is out this week and sima ayer. whoa!

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the justice department is investigating whether this man, john wong, tried to sell political influence to the chinese government through political contributions to the democratic party. >> obviously it would be a very serious matter for the united states if any country were to attempt to funnel funds to one of our political parties for any reason whatever. >> welcome back to "a.m. joy." back in the late '90s one of the biggest scandals known as chinagate. the alleged effort by china to buy into the u.s. election by directing campaign contributions to the dnc. queue the republican outrage that ensued. >> allegations of money laundering and undue and improper illegal participation in our electoral process. >> yet today in the midst of

russiagate knowing that the president's son met with a kremlin connected lawyer and former russian intelligence officer and who knows who else from the campaign what are we getting from the campaign? mostly shrug emojis. ening to us with is richard painter and former chief white house ethics lawyer under george w. bush and simon rosenberg. anand, you tweeted out something that inspired this segment. you were asked where is red america's patriotism? never has it been more necessary. what did you mean? >> i kind of have a theory about how what the different sides of a country do for each other. we often don't think of each other as doing something collaborative but if you think about there being red america and blue america or left and right, i think part of what we do is watch different flanks, and we actually outsource the job of watching certain things to the other. so the left is better, blue america is better at policing

equality, and just making sure that's okay and actually we all sort of value equality but we outsource that to the left, caring for the meekest. the thing that we outsource to the right that in a way even the left depends on the right to watch over is patriotism, national integrity, the security, the strength of our military, and we all americans value that, but we kind of ask the right to specialize. so when this country is the victim of a cyber attack, when one of the most hostile foreign nations attacks us, attacks our democracy, it's an amazing, ripe moment, for everything the right has been preparing for, this is your moment. this is the moment to step up and be patriotic, and fight for our security. this is the moment to turn in to action, and so it is a profoundly disappointing thing when our kind of paul revere looking out at that scene says

nothing. >> yes. >> doesn't cry out, doesn't warn us and in fact just shrugs. >> and in fact, just we have a little mash up of some of the responses including the speaker of the house to your very point. these are some of the responses that we've heard to this amazing news about this latest russia meeting. herer some republican responses. >> do i think it's appropriate? i think i probably would have done the same thing. it's opposition research and you know, anybody that's been in an election you're always looking to get the upper hand, and if somebody comes to us and says hey, we've got information on an opponent, yeah, i think that's an appropriate thing to do. >> was it illegal? was it, is that a material reality what they did was wrong, was illegal? i think we'll get to the facts on that. >> i supported bob mueller being appointed special counsel and i think we need to let him and his team and our investigators here do their jobs and follow these leads wherever they may lead, wherever they may go and follow

the facts. >> richard painter you're vocal the republican party that response is inadequate. is this just pure partisanship, there's a republican in the white house, we have to defend him no matter what he does, it doesn't matter. what do you think is at work here in the failure of republicans to have that sort of, you know, this is the party of now nationalism. where is the nationalism? >> well, the republicans i think you're talking about are a lot of the politicians and the various talking heads show up on the tv shows, but ordinary republicans at least out where i live in minnesota and many parts of the country aren't stupid, and know what's going on here. i mean, how many kgb agents and former kgb do you have to have in a room for there to be collusion? it's obvious there was collusion, and just having kellyanne conway stand on the white house lawn was a silly sign isn't going to change that and this isn't about left versus

right. this is about right versus wrong. this is about the independence of our own country and our electoral process, and i think every american needs to stand up against this type of thing and i say if we caught the american communist party doing this kind of thing, and maybe they were, if they'd been caught we would have had them locked up during the cold war period, and we had statutes to deal with this. it is treasonous conduct. we don't need the treason provision of the constitution, which would apply in war time, when we're declared war, but we have dealt with this type of conduct before, whether through espionage statutes, computer hacking statutes, false statements statutes, campaign finance laws, and indeed i have to say this is a meeting that even if you had it with an american group, a 501-c4, you would probably be violating campaign finance laws through coordination and that's a legal term usually used in campaign

finance. do you not coordinate with outside groups. you turn these meetings down. you have to or it can be regarded as a campaign contribution in violation of the campaign finance laws. i'm shot this happened and people are defending it. this is going to be a very, very bad situation for the republican party if we don't get our act together and face facts and put a stop to the lies. >> and yet simon, i think back to the '90s, all of the things that republicans were apoplectic about, they impeached bill clinton over his affair with monica lewinsky, started with the whitewater deal and went on from there, all the outrage of selling the lincoln bedroom, you remember that scandal you had john mccain saying they took it to a level the american people find almost disgusting, the president misled american people said representative dan burton of indiana, chief of the oversight panel, and yet now we literally have republicans those

who are willing to come on air saying, ted yoho, republican of florida, he, too, would take a meeting with a lawyer represented as coming from the republican government. you wrote a piece in which the wnc needs to step up and prevent future incursions into our election. why would you think that's possible if they're not willing to condemn this conduct? >> i think it's important to recognize what's different from the '90s and now is that the entire republican leadership is complicit in what happened in the hack in 2016. you had the rnc, reince priebus and sean spicer sending out emails every day promoting information they knew was from russia and aided and abetted the campaign. my own view is sean spicer and reince priebus got their jobs in the white house because they were so instrumental in helping make the russian campaign a success. the same is true with paul ryan and the house republicans. they used the materials in house race after house race after house race so all of these republican leaders were

complicit in the actual action of the russian government in 2016, so they're defending their president because they were part of the crime, and this is why the scandal is so wide-reaching and why if you look at bob bauer's great piece about the concept of aiding and abetting, it is clear that sean spicer, reince priebus, paul ryan, others who were part of the r triple c are all liable for the aiding and abetting statute and could be prosecuted and go to jail. so i think part of the reason there is such a wide held defense is that the entire republican party was in on the crime in 2016, and they're defending themselves. >> is that it? is this just complicity at work? >> i think all of those points are really right. we're talking about this as a matter of legal compliance but it's not just a matter of legal compliance alone. if i could be in a room and maybe in a sense i am right now those republicans who are xl

complicit, i guarantee you, if you have any sense of history, 50 years from now, everybody will think this was a bad thing to have happened. >> yes. >> and they will sit on your lap and grandchildren will ask you and you'll have to have an answer and right now that entire party leadership is unprepared to answer their grandchildren. >> i think more than that. i think they are prepared to aggressively move in donald trump's direction in terms of his views on russia. tucker krrlsan on exchange interview in which part of what he's been arguing because the united states was willing to collaborate with joseph stalin against the nazis therefore we should be fine with moving aggressively in the direction of cooperation and collaboration with russia at large, do more of it. this is tucker carlsson and max booth. >> right now you are supporting

donald trump even and you're laughing about the fact that russia is interfering in our election process. >> right. >> that is immoral. tucker, should we collaborate with russia committing war crimes in syria? is that your advice? a country dedicated death to america, is that your advice at the moment? we do not share common goals with russia because russia is trying to further the murderous bashar assad regime and the hegemony in syria. that is not our goal. they believe in death to america, we should not be cooperating. >> rich art painter, i want to give you last word. what do you make of the fact not only is there an excusing of the russian interference in the election, but now there is this new line that's being run by some members of the trump campaign as well as people like tucker carlson we ought to collaborative with the russians after what they did in our election? >> i think it's a very, very dangerous line to pursue.

russia's been trying to destabilize western democracies for 100 years at least since the 1917 russian revolution. what this is about is excusing the conduct of these people, who will do anything to win, and i tried to teach my kids this in sports. you fight hard. you want to win, but you don't cheat. you don't go and hurt the other players. it's very important that we understand that this type of betrayal is not acceptable, just because they did it in order to win and that's all they cared about was winning this election, for donald trump, at any cost, including any cost to the united states. it's terrible. >> i agree with anand history is going to judge this harshly. anand, richard, simon, thank you very much. appreciate it. for more on the latest trump revelations check out my "daily beast" column "so this is what american greatness really looks like?" coming up in the next hour, senate republicans are this close to passing a bill that can

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the evangelicals were so great to me and they did, they came out in massive numbers. >> we've helped because i've gotten rid of the johnson amendment and now we will try to get rid of it permanently in congress. i signed an executive order so people like you that i want to hear from, ministers and preachers and rabbis and whoever it may be, they can speak. >> yeah. >> you couldn't speak politically before and that's a great thing for chistch yanty,

believe me, and a great thing for rillen. >> between his entire with pat robertson and this picture of evangelical leaders laying hands on trump in prayer joining me the reverend dr. william barber. and reverend barber, what do you make of this laying on of hands and this embrace of donald trump by the evangelical right or the christian right? >> yeah. and this very, very, very extreme agenda by ryan and mcconnell, a form of malpractice that borders on her rasy. when you can pray for a president and others while they are preying on the most vulnerable you're violating the sacred principles of religion. a text in amos chapter 2, religious hypocrisy looks like when a nation of political leaders will buy and sell people to do anything to make money, sell the poor for a pair of shoes, grind the penniless into the dirt and shove the

[ inaudible ] into the ditch. that's an actual text. a text that says when you do not care for the sick you are violating the principles of god. we have this extremist trump republican agenda that takes health care, transfers wealth to the greedy that's hypocrisy and sin. $700 billion, you haven't seen that kind of transfer of wealth on the backs of the bodies of people since the days of slavery. claiming to care about life but passing a bill when you know thousands will die, 22 million people, poor working people will be hurt, that is hypocrisy and sin. passing bills, trying to pass it you know it will hurt children to disable and veterans. that is sin, hypocrisy. what leaders ought to be doing is challenging the president, challenging mcconnell and challenging ryan and challenging these senators and others, and not trying to appease them. instead they're acting like priests of the empire rather than prophets of god. >> you tweeted, you know, in response to the photo these people honor me with their lips

but the hearts are far from me. signed jesus. stay with us because the question i have is why are all of the evangelical voters so consistently voting for policies that hurt them when their ril than they profess, they follow so reveres and talks about ing care for the poor? >> not a lot of hopeful things to say about this hypocrisy but i actually want to point to something that i do think is hopeful about it. which is that i think it liberates the rest of us because for decades, this right wing evangelical movement tried to claim they're doing things on behalf of some higher calling and i think they're just revealing themselves to be another power industry in washington like the coal industry or teachers union and treat them as any other industry jockeying for influence and accord them no moral superiority on any question. >> do you agree reverend? >> though i would not use the language right wing because i don't think they're right so i

don't call people right that i think are wrong. i think there is a sense they've always been these, whether it was those who supported farrow or those who supported slavery who can be bought off in an attempt to use religion and hypocritical ways and i think we can't say just evangelicals. i'm an evangelical. but there is a group that has been using it, tied up with big business, tied up with racism, but the other side of it is, joy, we have to come back in the public square and those who believe not in left versus right have actually been too quiet. why many of us went in and did civil disobedience the other day, calling on all people of faith it's time to go to d.c. and engage in prophetic action. when you have people who claim they care about family values and cutting medicaid that will hurt poor people, engaging in policies that will cause political murder and political violence, we need to stand up and speak out and be the prophets of our generation. >> and you do that every day.

thank you so much, reverend barber. thank you very much, my friend. appreciate it. coming up next, jared kushner suddenly remembers 100 foreign contacts keep it right here. wh! you're not taking these. hey, hey, hey! you're not taking those. whoa, whoa! you're not taking that. come with me. you're not taking that. you're not taking that. you're not taking that. mom, i'm taking the subaru. don't be late. even when we're not there to keep them safe, our subaru outback will be. (vo) love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru.

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and new university partnerships to grow the businesses of tomorrow today. learn more at esd.ny.gov opposition research documents information from a foreign government or foreign national. plain and simple. criminal superior to defraud the united states impeding the lawful administration of a federal election, or to make an offense against the united states, cyber crimes, hacking against u.s. citizens, the clinton campaign, conspiracy with respect to espionage, so we need to follow the facts, and what did the rest of the family know and when did they know it. >> that was house minority leader nancy pelosi on friday running down a list of laws she believes may have been broken

when donald trump, jr., jared kushner and paul manafort met with russians after an e-mail offer of information from the russian government designed to damage hillary clinton's campaign. of all those trump campaign officials who could be in legal jeopardy because of that meeting only trump's senior adviser and son-in-law jared kushner is currently a white house official with a high-level security clearance and he now is under increased scrutiny for ob take that clearance without notifying the fbi of all of his foreign contacts and changed the disclosure form not once, not twice, but three times. according to reporting from yahoo! kushner's original application for security clearance form filed on january 18th mention nod meeting with foreign officials. a mistake his lawyer pinned on a staff member who hit the send button before the form complete. when he got around to hitting send again four months later in may, his meetings with foreign officials went from zero to more than 100. however, one meeting not included on that second try

list, was the one with the russian lawyer and the former russian intelligence officer and his brother-in-law don junior and paul manafort at trump tower last june. that update didn't happen until three weeks ago on june 21st after kushner's lawyer supposedly discovered the now infamous e-mail from pop star manager turned fixer rob gold stone. kushner's questionable transparency is a bridge too far for house democrats who joined representative pelosi in issuing this demand. >> i also call to the row vehicle -- revoking of the seurity clearance of jared kushner. that's absolutely ridiculous he should have that clearance. >> joining me now is texas congressman al green who this week filed an article of impeachment against donald trump. and representative green, first of all let's talk about leader pelosi's bill of particulars against the trump campaign. are any of those things included in your proffer of an article of

impeachment? >> actually, let me start by saying that mr. kushner is the de facto secretary of state. he is a pseudo minister. he seems to have an inordinate amount of influence and a person with such influence has to be judged by the influence that he has. he should not be in the position he's in, and quite frankly, he should have his security clearance suspended or revoked. i agree with what speaker pelosi said. my articles of impeachment are going to deal with obstruction of justice, and they deal with obstruction of justice in the political sense. because quite candidly speaking, many of the scholars that have been on programs have confused people, i don't think it was done with intention, but they have confused people because they've used the legal standard for impeachment and if you will go to federalist 65 you will find that the standard for impeachment has more to do with

politics than it has to do with a judicial standard. so i won't have this particular instance in, but i will have some things that will meet the standards outlined in federalist 65. >> so this has to do, i'm assuming, with the firing of jim comey, that donald trump's own actions, after russia gate had taken place, is that what you're talking about? >> exactly. mr. comey was fired, the president confessed on national television in prime time, he made it clear this was being done because of the investigation. he went on to intimidate him with a tweet. these are things that are impeachable. when these things are all added up, they're impeachable. the president has to come before the bar of justice. and the only place that that bar of justice exists is the house of representatives. each member of the house can file a resolution for impeachment. i was proud to join representative sherman with his articles of impeachment, but i will be filing articles unless,

of course, the judiciary committee acts on what's been filed already. if they should then there won't be a need. >> that's the question, though. do you think there's any chance at all that the republican controlled house of representatives is going to ever impeach this president? >> well, the house of representatives has to have the opportunity, and for them to have the opportunity, somebody's got to have the courage to file impeachment article so that there can be a vote. if the senate judiciary committee doesn't bring this to the house, then i or any other member can bring articles of impeachment to the floor an it won't be about democrats, it will be about democracy, government by the people for the people. it won't be about the republicans. it will be about the republic and whether we can keep what jefferson, pardon me benjamin franklin said we had, that is a republic. i love my country. i will do it because it's a question of conscience. i don't know how many people will vote for impeachment. except i can assure you there will be one. i will. >> all right.

well congressman al -- >> may i add one additional comment. >> certainly. >> please if i may. this additional comment, with reference to mr. kushner and this meeting that took place, there is one significant fact that we have to address, and that is, there is enough probable cause here for a grand jury to investigate. if the special counsel is doing his job either he will have agents talking to mr. kushner or he will have a grand jury looking into this. there is probable cause for a grand jury to look into it and any prosecutor who says there is not probable cause is an outlier or outright liar because the probable cause clearly exists. >> thank you very much for your thoughts, sir. appreciate it. >> thank you. >> want to bring in scott, senior adviser to the democratic coalition against trump, journalist sara, msnbc contributor naveed and mother jones washington bureau chief david corn. david i'm going to ask you about

impeachment but naveed i want to ask you about the sf-86 issue the idea by the kushner team that the reason his first filing in january had no foreign contacts listed on it was because an aide accidentally hit send. does that seem credible to you? >> it's outrageous. you can't look at one of these instances and singularity. look at the totality of everything that's happened, and it's frankly, an insult that this man still has a clearance. i mean, look, joy, at the end of the day, if the president wants to come out and say there's two sets of standards, a set of standards that applies to my family, whether by marriage or blood, and a second standard that applies to everyone else he should say that. if we have one set of standards for clearances for the institutions that grant them, grant access to top secret clearance then he should be held to the standard that everyone else is. i'll say this last thing, you know, if you're a police officer and got forbid you're involved in a shooting, regardless of whether the outcome of the shooting is justified, your gun

is taken until the investigation is done. this is a similar thing. regardless of whether jared kushner is going to be charged with anything, eventually found guilty or innocent, he's the subject of an investigation. this is the time to remove his clearance. anyone else would have lost their clearance a long, long time ago. and i have to say, it just sets two standards and at the core of the presidency, that seems to be the modus operandi of the trump administration. >> you see nothing has happened and republicans called it a stunt for democrats to ask for jared kushner's security clearance to be [ inaudible ]. despite the fact that it was reported this week that investigators into the trump russia affair are now probing whether jared kushner's digital operation he was running for the campaign might have been involved in the dissemination of russian hacked material or propaganda and that nbc news reported on june 5th that kushner may have been -- that congress is potentially asking whether kushner has been going around seeking bailout, seeking russian money, to bail out 666

fifth avenue which is deeply in debt and which could be some of the source of the russians' interest in him because that could be a vulnerability and there is no sign that either there will be an impeachment of donald trump, republicans are basically saying there's nothing wrong with collusion, and no sign that jared kushner will lose his security clearance. what do you make of it? >> the republicans have clearly made a calculation. they will abide by anything, and i mean anything, maybe even donald trump going on fifth avenue and shooting someone, as he once discussed, in order to get tax cuts for the rich, budget cuts for the poor, and a repeal of obamacare. they will not take any steps against donald trump or any -- or even criticize him beyond maybe a mild rebuke, because it will threaten their policy agenda that i just outlined. i mean to me, the big picture this week that came out of this, was not the meeting itself, which may or may not have led to negative information being passed, we certainly can't

believe anything that anyone who is in the meeting says since they've lied about it repeatedly, but to me the big thing was that here is clear evidence that a putin corny, the national prosecutor in moscow, conspired with donald trump's business partner, in moscow, to get negative information to the trump campaign through rob gold stone, we talked about that, and that don junior, jared kushner, paul manafort came running and eagerly joined. you have to call it a conspiracy. and then they continued to lie about it and then when russia was accused of mucking about and meddling the election, they knew that was true, to some extent, and they continued to say, no. so they protected putin's conspiratorial operation against america. so it doesn't even matter what happened at the meeting itself. it might. but that's the big picture here.

and republicans in congress refuse to acknowledge that because tax cuts and repealing obamacare are just more important to them. >> yeah. you know, scott, now having known, you know, malcolm and naveed for a year now and talked about all the spy stuff with them, it's obvious that if there was a vulnerability on the -- for jared kushner specifically, maybe even for the trump family, money feels like it's a part of it. to go back to this nbc news scoop on june 5th one of the question kushner is expected to be asked by congress by the congressional committees whether he tried to set up a secret back channel way of communicating with the yarussians to find someone in moscow to take the 41 story tower on 666 fifth avenue off his family's hands. he had mounting debts and he apparently tried to muscle qatar for loans, et cetera. what do you make of the sort of business side, money side, money need aspects of russia gate?

>> it seems like they have no moral standard when it comes to what kind of money they're willing to accept and what kind of money they're not willing to accept. and i think it's coming back to haunt them now. they think that the rules don't apply to them. they think the rule of law in america don't apply to them. i'll tell you, when it comes down to it, most of these people are guilty when it comes to the court of public opinion, especially with trump, so if it comes to impeachment, for trump, i think it's pretty simple. he's guilty in the court of public opinion and when you make it clear that it's a political opportunity for us to make sure that we actually can impeach, when it comes to the money, i think it's most of it is dirty money. blood money when it comes down to it. this is disgusting. these are people who are gang members, mob members, who deal with human trafficking and just abhorrent things and not something representative of our democracy, and he's blowing

everything that the united states has been built for over the past few hundred years. >> you're talking about on the russia side, the mob be stuff on the russia side. >> right. >> sara, and yet, sara, the impunity with which donald trump has been able to do all of this, whether it is flouting the emol lieuments clause, these meetings we keep finding out about more and more russia meetings. the one with jared kushner saying he wanted a secret back channel, secret communications, there seems to be nothing so outrageous that it causes a reaction, a political reaction. are we seeing you talk about autocracy, isn't this the essence the leader can get away with literally anything? >> yeah. they're very brazen about it, blatant about it on purpose and that's to instill a sense of helplessness in the population saying we know that you know what we did and there's nothing you can do. they've continued to do this in this way. when donald trump, jr. released the e-mails on twitter that was a sign he believes that quite possibly they won't face repercussions. if trump has consolidated

executive power, if he has the ability to issue presidential pardons and people like jeff sessions also implicated in the russian interference scandal aren't going to act to prosecute people when evidence comes in, then yeah, they do have, you know, a kind of immunity from consequence and that's an absolute tragedy for american democracy. that either party should consider. there's no future for the republican party in this kind of system. you're looking at at a cleptocracy in which republican leaders will be denied opportunity the ability to advance their positions and careers because they will be subservient to trump and his kremlin colleagues that he's subservant. and that's a terrible situation for this country. >> you had this happening when it's not clear that russians even had anything significant to give, that they simply damage dangled the possibility that they could get hillary clinton's 33,000 e-mails and got all of this access? >> that's absolutely right. just by taking this meeting,

and, you know, that was enough to hold something over the trump campaign and perhaps trump himself. there seems to be a pattern here. we see with this meeting, with the peter smith or the potential that the russians pushed out this idea they had hillary clinton's 33,000 e-mails, at the end of the day -- and peter smith took that back and we see donald trump go on national tv and say in two occasions, once after the meeting with donald junior, saying that there's going to be dirt coming out in the future press release and then secondly going and asking russia to release these 33,000 e-mails and saying they will be, you know, mightily rewarded, it's so clear that the russians completely manipulated this, you know, the trump team and just over acted on them. i have to say, the last thing here, i mean, there's just a level of sleaze that the people that the russians use, the people that were able get into this trump circle is fascinating

and both shocking. at this point i wouldn't be surprised to hear that scott baio is driving the uber and they stopped at a subway with tequila. it's crazy. >> david, last -- i'm going to give you the last word. is it that the trump people were easily manipulated or actively attempting to use russian intelligence to get their -- >> i don't think they were manipulated. you have trump's business partner in moscow, who he was trying to do -- he did miss universe with, trying to do towers with, coming through who trump had a warm father/son like relationship with, and that was, you know, part of the conspiracy. i hope at the end of the day, that, you know, we may have to rely on what robert mueller does. >> yeah. >> whether he gets to the bottom of this or not. not sure we can depend on the congressional investigations. if crimes were broken i think he will have a good beat on this and we still don't know what else he's investigating. >> yep. scott, sara, naveed, david, thank you very much. appreciate it.

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we do business where you do business. ♪ ♪ so really i think we're keeping obamacare as much as anything, and that's not our promise. >> i find myself unable to support the bill. >> with susan collins and rand paul firmly in the no column for obvious reasons mitch mcconnell cannot afford to lose one more vote on his health care bill. one more republican says no and it's over and yet no one has stepped up. even though several senators say they have concerns about the bill, still cuts medicaid by a third over 20 years, still eliminates funding for planned parenthood and includes language

from ted cruz to allow insurers to offer bare bones plans would could mean massive premium hikes for 1.5 million people with preexisting conditions. and still, no republican senator willing to go on the record and put the final nail in trumpcare's coffin. joining me former dnc chair howard dean, donna edwards and editor in chief of think progress [ inaudible ]. representative edwards i want to go to you first you movingly came out this past week and talked about your own health care experience and the fact that your former colleagues could theoretically could be taking health care away from you. could you explain? >> a year ago in june, june 22nd, i was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and in the year time period in trying to get my hands around this disease, one of the things that i discovered is that first i've had to cobra my coverage since i came out of congress in january 2017, that cost about $800 a

month, but the real kicker is my care runs to about $100,000 a year, including $73,000 that's part of my prescription drugs. and what i know is that the end of my cobra coverage in june 2018, i had planned to transition to the affordable care act because it would be affordable and i continued to be able to get my health care and what i know is that under this senate bill certainly under the house bill, i have a preexisting condition that's one of the most expensive for chronic long-term care that i will be left in the lurch like millions of people with care that is astronomical in cost or completely unaffordable. and so i just decided to raise my voice on behalf of millions of people to my former colleagues who know me, they know me as an athlete, somebody i played congressional softball with them, with football, tennis, and very active, bike

rider, and i will no longer have health care and i didn't know a year ago that i had this condition, but i have it now, and i think it's important for all of us to speak out to contact our senators and to really let them know the disaster that this version of so-called better care will have on all of us. >> yeah. you know, it's interesting, howard dean, and luckily we have a doctor in the house, dr. dean can talk about this, as well as a former governor, yet, despite what you just heard from donna edwards, as she said she didn't know she had a preexisting condition until last year and now she has one, this cruz amendment what it would do, despite that fact being real for millions of americans, would say that people like donna edwards would be shoved off into this small group of people with preexisting conditions who get this catastrophic care that's obamacare compliant, and then everyone else would be -- would be able to buy these bare bones, bare minimum plans which could

be cheap, you had this unprecedented insurers coming out, unprecedented fashion, rare joint letter from america's health insurance plans including blue cross blue shield association, that was sent last night to mitch mcconnell and chuck schumer, about this ted cruz amendment that would create almost a helper colony of the sick and those with preexisting conditions with very expensive insurance and cheaper insurance for those who are healthy and said it is unworkable in any form, undermine protection for those with preexisting medical conditions increase premiums and lead to widespread termination of coverage for people enrolled in the individual market. have you ever seen first of all a letter like that from insurers and what do you make of that as the compromise putting all the people with preexisting conditions and who have illnesses in one insurance basket? >> well, first let me thank donna for her courage and i appreciate your getting out there, putting a face on the problem, of what the -- of trumpcare is important and well-known face, so thank you.

secondly, this is not as my home state senator pat leahy said, this is really a tax bill disguised as a health bill. what these guys are trying to do is give money to people like donald trump and their donors. they can't pay for the tax cuts unless they destroy obamacare. taking health care from poor and middle-class people in order to pay for an enormous tax cut for the richest people in america, donald trump's good friends and donors. i find that disgusting. i think that the republican party has become a bankrupt institution. they're not speaking up for the country. they're speaking up for themselves. there are four or five senators who know this is a disaster. this is completely -- complete disaster for west virginia which has one of the highest medicaid dependencies in the country. they're going to get drastically cut. dean heller. this is 122,000 people who will lose their health insurance as a result of what dean heller does if he supports this bill coming to the floor. and it goes on down the road.

so i find the republican party to be morally bankrupt. they don't give a dam about their constituents. they care about their donors. they don't give a dam about the integrity of elections. i long for the days of great republicans who did what was right for the country and not right for the party. >> at least right for their own states and constituents. the way that mitch mcconnell has attempted to, you know, woo these senators who got high medicaid populations, whose states have benefited is this menu of changes. some of the changes to the health bill. allow insurers to offer bare minimum plans, it would allow fewer tax cuts to the rich but still do them, provide $45 billion, which doesn't sound like a lot of money in a trillion dollar budget for op body addiction -- opioid addiction. and this is what mike pence came out yesterday and said about preexisting conditions. about the donna edwards of the world. take a listen. >> legislation insures that

every american with preexisting conditions has access to the coverage and care they need, no exceptions. >> is that true? >> it's not true. and the way the cruz amendment operates, it's gone from a bill that was always cruel and now it's really incoherent. one of the things that's not being talked about a lot is, these bare bones plans don't actually count as under the bill continuous insurance. so if you are on one of these bare bones plans and then find well, actually, i need to go into a real plan that covers more -- this new condition that i found out that i have, you have to wait six months to get in. so this could be really devastating for people with preexisting conditions and, of course, the other huge problem is, that the cost to get into the pools that will now cover

preexisting conditions now that all of the healthy people are being diverted out into these bare bones plans is going to be enormous. so many people will just simply get priced out of the market. so on a couple of different scores, pence is saying that people with preexisting conditions will be covered, it's not true. he's also saying the purpose of this bill is to protect medicaid and it cuts $800 million from medicaid. i'm not sure we can really trmi pence to be an honest broker about what the bill says. >> donna edwards have you been able to get through to your republican colleagues to talk about your situation and appeal to them to be the no vote? >> you know one of the reasons i wrote the op-ed, as a former member and recently out i'm prohibited from lobbying legislation. i wrote the op-ed i wanted them to hear my story. if i had one of these simple bare bones plans in may of 2016, by the time i was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis in june of

2016, i would not have health care. >> wow. it's a serious issue and it's shocking one sixth of the u.s. economy is up for debate and they haven't debated. howard, donna, judd, be well donna, thank you very much. >> up next the great phil donahue is here. (woman vo) is now a good time

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i'm passionate about it because every time i go on the street i think about my own kids. they're the reason that i want to protect our community and our environment, and if me driving a that truck means that somebody gets to go home safer, then i'll drive it every day of the week. together, we're building a better california. did the new york military academy do that for you or were you always like that. >> i think, and maybe this is a part of the book and what's happening, that people tend to

be what they are. people really have it or don't have it. >> people tend to be what they are. one of the most enduring television personalities, some might call him the father of daytime talk shows, interviewed donald trump 30 years ago after the release of "the art of the deal" and joining me the great phil donahue. >> i looked like i just made my first communion there. >> well i'm both excited and intimidated. thank you for being here. a dream come true to get you on the show but i want to ask you about that interview. you interviewed donald trump in 1987. >> on the show three times. >> it came in an interesting year in my view in donald trump's life. he was really pushing the reagan administration to make him some sort of russian ambassador, styled himself a potential future president. when you spoke to him back then, did you see a potential future president? someone -- >> are you serious? >> did you think he could run? >> not in a million years. well who did? i thought he was a hot dog.

and, you know, i kind of gave hi him a little stiff arm. i said i think i like your father better than you. but he held up all right. i wasn't nasty or mean. he really -- he reached out and worked hard to -- he collected celebrities and made a lot of noise and got his name on a lot of buildings. >> yep. >> and where were we when that happened? why didn't you think of that, joy? >> it's interesting i feel when people say donald trump has changed so much, to me he seems the same every -- if you go back to the '80s and listen to him talk and talk now he's the same guy. one of the ways he's the same he did have this emphasis you talked about loyalty. another clip of it, this is about donald trump's loyalty a question you asked about roy cohen, being his lawyer, during

that federal case that the nixon administration brought for racial discrimination in his father's buildings. take a listen. >> loyalty is a great trait. in my opinion it's a great trait. a trait that maybe can cause problems, but it's also a great trait. >> right. >> now you see this guy demanding loyalty from jared kushner, and his son tried to take the fall, what do you make of that. >> same old same old. he's very -- and he can't handle, obviously, anyone who disagrees. how about the cabinet meeting where everybody -- like bobble heads am i great, yes, you are. >> yeah. >> i mean that was -- that was -- >> yeah. >>icy. anybody who is capable of that and didn't see the horror of demanding this kind of public proclamations of loyalty and -- >> yeah. >> you know, just total fidelity to the king.

>> yeah. and you know, one of the things, you know, that i guess the media missed during the campaign you had to sort of be a trump support to get he did even back in the 1980s make this appeal to a certain kind of american who feels put upon by foreigners, put upon by, you know, people of color, whatever it is they're put upon, and this is donald trump in 1987 talking about japan and other countries ripping off the country. take a listen. >> kuwait, saudi arabia, they're ripping off this country. and i don't like seeing it. other countries have to pay us for the services we're rendering or this country is going to go down the tubes. >> no different than his campaign appeal. >> really. >> no different. >> and that's -- that's a variation on the theme that i think earned him so much voting power, enough to become president. he would go to these -- i wondered who were these people -- when he walks out in the big rallies and had their

iphones up here taking his picture and you can see the back, who were these people? and i -- the learner that i am, mainstream elite media as he would say, also missed this story. these were people who work hard, aren't sure of their company isn't going to be sold, kids can't get a job, they're home watching espn, they're -- they can't get the minimum wage raised. >> yeah. >> beyond $10 an hour. and he comes out and that rally, clapping and he says, you're being ripped off and these people said yes! and that was what put him in the white house. and i think the so-called as he would call it mainstream media missed largely missed that story. >> yeah. >> not bernie, but most of the

mainstream media really didn't get that. >> and now that everyone's caught up and realized that oh, yeah, he definitely has a strong appeal to them, do you think there's anything that could break trump voters from him? a recent piece out in which a trump voter says i guess if he killed someone in cold blood i would change my mind. >> really, well, he can shoot a gun down fifth avenue. >> and get away with it. >> and all of a sudden we got a [ inaudible ] grabber for a president. this is the darkest political moment in american history. who's going to argue that? >> i'm wondering too, because one of the things about that period in the '80s was there was a certain sort of dallas and dynasty culture, sort of love of celebrity, the reagans gave off that era, and this is donald trump in your interview talking about his book sales. "the art of the deal" which tony swarz wrote but he took credit for. this is donald trump talking about his book sales. >> the front page of the "wall

street journal" tells us they're printing 150,000 copies. tweaked your cheek a bit, you said there were 200. exaggerating mr. hype. >> i thought it was 200 and i think it will be 200 but i'm not sure what it is exactly. it's 150 to 200,000. >> uh-huh. >> i guess. >> hyping and lying. two things that have not changed. do you think deep down in americans, they kind of like a hype man, like a cad. >> absolutely. he's an antidote to what they see as the pom posty of mainstream television, and they're fed up with it and we're not talking about them. his name is bujavich. >> pete -- >> thank you. mayor of south bend he is saying my constituents are saying, what about me?

>> you know, this is the question i have whenever i hear that. don't we talk about these folks all the time. there have been so many stories of this particular trump voter staring soulfully out a window you could print an entire thick "new york times" of that picture. you talk about them every day. polls about them every week. we're constantly talking about these people. how can they feel not talked about? >> well, this is a hard point to make because it is true, not everything sucks. i mean, there are -- i've had howard stern on my show so you watch my language. it is true, a lot of good work going on and they're -- not all the media deserves to be criticized. i see these women in iraq and afghanistan with the helmets and i think holy cow, what if their parents are watching, you know, come home, honey. daddy will get you a job at starbucks. and it is true. it wasn't totally ignored. but it wasn't hit with all the

same graphics and computer animation, trump trump trump trump. was such a magnet that i think they were overlooked and i think they have a right to say, what about me, because i don't think media dug deep enough to see the pain out there, the broken hearts, the disappointments, the people who believed in america. went to church every sunday and sang in the choir and i think they were ignored. i just do. >> i have one last question because this -- your interview took place the same year that donald trump took out this full page ad in "the new york times," "boston globe" and other places top of the ad nothing wrong with america's foreign defense policy that a little backbone can't cure, slamming ronald reagan essentially, but also, putting forward this very pro-russia line even back then. what do you make of the fact that you knnow have a significa share of republicans who are okay with an american presidential candidate colluding

with russia. what do you make of that? >> i think he's elvis. i don't think they will tolerate many of the base, will not tolerate criticism of him. if he can talk like to billy, when he got off the bus -- >> billy bush. >> if he can talk that way, if they accept that, and also this is distant from them. this doesn't speak to their heart. and i think honestly i don't think he can be impeached right now. i think it's too dangerous for a member of congress to vote for impeachment and upset a significant number of his own constituency. it's a third rail he could risk his own re-election. >> yeah. phil donahue, it is such a treat to talk to you. >> my pleasure. >> thank you so much for taking the time. hopefully we can lure you back.

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this week the crown jewel of women's golf teed off at the trump national golf club in bedminster, new jersey. it's where trump spends many of his weekends and in fact he's there now. the president managed to peel himself away from twitter to make a cameo at the women's open yesterday, and he's expected there again today. despite protests against holding

the pre'eminent women's tournament at a course of someone who has bragged about groping women, the usga has not moved off of trump's golf course. shawna, thank you for being here. the spectacle of any kind of sporting event being held on the grounds of a course owned by the president of the united states with the president of the united states presiding feels very unlike what america is like. your thoughts. >> i agree with you, but in this case, in the case of donald trump, it almost doesn't matter if he's president or not. the usga associating themselves with donald trump and forcing women to play on his golf course is absolutely shameful in our view. you know, they're requiring these women to contribute to building up his brand and

endorsing what you described in your opening as a long history of sexual assault and abuse. >> multiple women have made accusations that donald trump groped them or touched them inappropriately. we know he's on tape saying he's a celebrity so he can grab women boy the genitals. it is pretty outrageous to have him presiding over a women's golf tournament. but there is this other counter point which is according to "usa today," the u.s. golf association executive director, mike davis, told members of his executive committee that donald trump threatened to sue the organization if it moved the 2017 u.s. women's open from trump national golf club in bedminster according to a person with direct knowledge of the meeting. donald trump is a person that threatens to sue a lot, he doesn't always do it, but do you think that lawsuit threat is why they're going through with it? >> it very well may be. i have to tell you there are hundreds, thousands of people that have been threatened with lawsuits by the trump organization. i have personal friends that have been threatened by the

trump organization because they believe more in their values and distancing themselves from racism, bigotry and sexism, they have stood by their decision and moved forward. we don't know the details of the threat, of course. it could very well have been logistically impossible for them to move it. what they could have done was say we have to have this tournament, we're moving forward with it, but after this, we won't be associating ourselves with the trump brand any longer. and what they have done instead is defend their decision every time they have been confronted with what they're doing. >> so we know that recently pro golf champion, john daly, who's a friend of donald trump posted photos of himself visiting the oval office. he posted great day at the white house. seeing one of my great friends, real donald trump, who's making america great. blah, blah, blah. john daly also tweeted that britney lincecum is one of the few golfers who spoke out saying she hoped that he day away.

tough to do things when people down one of my great friends. sorry, some things shouldn't be said. he has a great heart, has america first always. so essentially you have male pro golfers siding with donald trump against women. i mean what do you make -- is there -- i don't know, is there any solidarity there in the golf world for women golfers? >> evidently there isn't. it's one of the saddest most shapeful parts about this. this isn't about whether you like donald trump, it's about what he represents, what he has said himself about who he is as a sexual predator. you know, they had an opportunity to come to the defense of women golfers who frankly don't have the leverage and are not in a position to force the usga to do anything. and they didn't. they did the exact opposite. they sided with trump, intimidated the women players, and essentially they're endorsing this horrific behavior and dangerous what will be his legacy of making it okay to

treat women badly and to sexually assault and abuse them. >> thank you for speaking out, shawna thomas. we appreciate you. thank you for being here. that's our show for today. we'll see you tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. eastern for more "a.m. joy." keep it right here on msnbc.

hey there, good day, everyone. i'm alex witt here at msnbc world headquarters in new york where it is high noon in the east, it's 9:00 a.m. out west. we begin with new details on the trump administration's efforts to push senate republicans on the health care bill. omb director mill mulvaney and tom price are both in rhode island today speaking with governors in the hope they would sway gop senators who have been critical of the bill. that's because with two of them opposed to this new version, they cannot afford to lose another. their efforts come amid another setback, though. two major insurers are asking mcconnell to remove senator cruz's amendment which would