are you there? he's probably on mute. yeah... gary won't like it. why? because he's gary. (phone ringing) what? keep going! yeah... (laughs) (voice on phone) it's not millennial enough. there are a lot of ways to say no. thank you so much. thank you! so we're doing it. yes! start saying yes to your company's best ideas. let us help with money and know-how, so you can get business done. american express open. just so we're clear, everyone, conclusion, collusion, no? illusion, dilution, yes. >> i'm a lawyer. here's the legal issue. what law was violated by that meeting and your experts have said it, too. nothing. >> what is a hostile foreign power? do we say can you take information from nonhostile foreign powers? >> good morning, welcome to "a.m. joy."

now washington, d.c., is not known as exactly a ship business town. over the last week we've seen a new twist on the now standard trump team defense strategy of distract, distract, distract. this week after we learned that donald trump jr. met with a kremlin connected lawyer and a former russian counter intelligence officer along with paul manifort and jared kushner, we saw the president's defenders try the razzle-dazzle. we've seen the use of quirky visual aids, menldal gymnastic that's don't stick the landing, everything but a literal song and dance, well at least so far. and yesterday on this very show even more sight gags from the guy the rnc sent tout defend trum whpt producers of this show asked for a surrogate. >> you see, the question is, this guy might have been a friend of the family. but the russian government would never have used this guy or entrusted him with sensitive intelligence operation.

that's simply didn't happen. >> see, a funny pirate hat means no russiagate. magic. so why is trump's defense squad resorting to this instead of justify the trump campaign's clear and dman straighted willingness to receive russia's help in the election? maybe it's because trump now has the lowest approval rating of any president in their first six months in the past 70 years. that is a 36% approval rating. it's no illusion. it's not based on dilution or confusion and it is actually -- but it is a response to collusion. a lot of rhyming. joining me now is representative ted lu of california, a member of both the house judiciary and foreign affairs committees. i guess i should first ask you, congressman, did you bring a visual aid? >> i did not bring a visual aid, thank you. >> no props. thank you. good. okay. we're glad to hear there are no props going to be part of this. i do have to ask you.

we've seen this migration of the trump defense from no collusion ever happened. it's all made up by the media to a place where they seem to be collusion is fine. there's nothing wrong with it. and here's the guy in a funny pirate hat to tell why you that is. why do you suppose they think that this will work, this idea of saying there is nothing wrong with collusion? >> it won't work. because the law is very clear. not only did donald trump jr. do something that was completely unamerican, he vie latd a federal election campaign act which says can you not solicit anything of value from a foreign national. and as a former prosecutor, i can tell you that a conspiracy charge of violate that act is very easy to prove. you don't even have to show that a crime was completed. you just have to show he took one step to try to complete the crime and he certainly did that. >> and so now, okay, if that is the case, do you expect what happened in that meeting to come under the mueller investigation or are you saying that this is a separate potential criminal offense that the justice

department should be looking into? if that's the case, who could do it? it doesn't seem like jeff sessions is in a position to do it. >> under their instruction that's special counsel mueller was given, he has the right to investigate crimes arising from the trump-russia investigation. this was certainly one of those crimes he could absolutely investigate violations of the federal election campaign act which, by the way, carries with it not just severe fines but also imprisonment. >> and who do you think is in legal jeopardy? if we take -- we'll take the premise then that there is legal jeopardy potentially attached to at least this meeting or some of these meetings. who does that jeopardy attach to? we know that of the people in that meeting only jared kushner is a government official. is he the person that that jeopardy would attach to? >> it would attach to donald trump jr. because when he got an e-mail saying that the russian government has dirt on hillary clinton and he responded by saying i love it and then sets up a meeting and shows up at that meeting, that completes the

conspiracy charge. but jared kushner also has liability as well as pal manifort. they were given that same scheme chain before they showed up to that meeting. when they showed up at that meeting that, would complete a conspiracy charge. >> all right. i want to have you stay with us if you koshgs congressman. we'll keep you here and bring in michelle bernard, president of the bernard center for women politics and public poll sichlt herb london, president of the london center for policy research and awe thofr the book "leading from behind," the obama doctrine and retreat from international affairs. and former pentagon official rosa brooks. i'm going to actually start with you, herb london. welcome to the show. i believe this is your first time on. so let's start with where we just left off with congressman lu. he has said that meeting with a foreign official, an attempt to derive a material benefit it from, meaning what they're calling opposition research which, of course, we know that people normally pay for. that could be a criminal offense. i want to point to you to a

piece in the huffington post that reports that $50,000 was paid to donald trump jr.'s criminal defense lawyer 11 days before that "new york times" story broke. are you troubled by the way these events are heading? it certainly looks like the trump campaign was concerned that there was legal jeopardy for trump jr. >> i don't believe for a moment there is a criminal case here. i do believe that there is a lot of razzle-dazzle as you pointed out. i'm not happy about the fact that russians are involved in anything -- in any way what happens with an american election. i think the high dungeon that you expressed and making this into a major case is a distraction from the policy agenda of the trump administration. and i'm not necessarily defenderst trump team. my feeling is that what you overlooked is the fact that we've made significant strides since donald trump has been president. and that has been overlooked largely because this is a distraction notwithstanding your claim to the contrary. it is a distraction from the kind of policy agenda that i think we should be following.

it is very interesting that when you had hillary clinton sell 20% or approve of the sale of 20% of american uranium to the russians under a rather strange set of circumstances, i didn't hear you engage in high dungeon. it is also true that when ted kennedy in 1983 said he implored the russians to help defeat ronald reagan, i didn't hear you engage in high done john. there done john. dungeon. >> first of all, the uranium comment, i looked up to make sure that i'm completely accurate. that is a completely false claim that is peddled by many on the right. they went through that allegation. it is actually not true that hillary clinton sold 20% -- force. >> i didn't say she sold it. she approved it. >> it's not true there is anything untort about hillary clinton and uranium and rush yachlt that is an entirely made

up conspiracy theory. we'll go through it later in the show. i want my producers to grab that article. we'll table that for a minute and read to the audience. that was just a false claim. going to the part about you saying that it is odd that we would be in high dungeon about a foreign government meddling in our election, i find that a little bit shocking. you don't think it's major scandal to have an adversarial foreign power meddling in the election with the help of an american presidential campaign? >> i do think as i indicate to you. >> you said we're overreacting to it? >> i think you're overreacting. i don't think this is a criminal offense. i'm very much concerned about the intervention of any foreign government. look, hillary clinton took money from the chinese in 2008. >> that's not true. that's not true either. okay. we can deal with -- no. no. number but you are. we'll look that up, too. producers. they're going to look that one up. what we don't want to do is have you throw out false conspiracy theories rather than answering my questions. >> i'm not sure that it's false.

>> they are. we're wasting time talking about false conspiracy theories. we would like you to focus on donald trump f you want to talk about hillary clinton, we'll book you for a hillary clinton segment. >> i want to talk about donald trump. i'm trying to create a context for this discussion. >> i'm going to turn you to, michelle. otherwise, we're going to spend the entire segment reading snopes.com. the idea that it is not a big enough deal that a foreign government meddled in our election, that we ought to instead talk about the economy, how does that strike you? >> as ludicrous. you know, we keep being told that this is a big nothing burger. it's a fully loaded burger. even for donald trump's most ardent supporters, when donald trump said to his supporters, let's make america great again, i don't believe that they thought that by saying that meant let's make america a fully oenld subsidiary of the russian government.

there are a lot of sparks here. where there is smoke, there is fire. maybe there was not collusion yet. but the fact that donald trump jr. was willing to accept information from a hostile government to help his father win the election is a very, very important matter. and if america's democracy fails, our economy fails. so, you know, what our -- what mr. london is telling us, i kment believe it. it doesn't smell -- pass the sniff test. >> yet, you know, rosa brooks that, is the talking point among trump supporters. this is, you know, gone from collusion didn't happen to okay, fine if, they did, it's no big deal. there is no crime here, it's fine. and as somebody who worked for the pentagon, as somebody who has been in the business of the defense of this country, how does that strike you when you hear, okay, we're making too big of a deal of russian meddling in an american campaign? >> i guess the idea is that we shouldn't be in high dungeon we

should be in low or moderate dungeon about. this whether it was illegal remains to be seen. we need to do -- we need more information and the special prosecutor is looking into that. but i think there's a difference between illegal and stupid. they can overlap. but sometimes they're different. there is a difference between illegal and unethical. whether we have illegality here remains to be seen. it seems pretty clear that what we have at a bear minimum is unethical and stupid and, yeah, absolutely from the perspective of smn who used to work in our national security establish. if someone says, hey, guess what snt russian government's got some dirt on a political candidate running against your campaign, you would like it? you call the fbi. you don't say oh, sure. i'd love it. fantastic. you call the fbi. because you know that -- as others have said, it has all of the hallmarks of a russian operation to spread disinformation to make you vulnerable to blackmail. it goes beyond just that. it goes back to an issue that's

been sort of looming over the trump campaign for some time which is do the russians have dirt on trump or his close associate that's could be used for blackmail purposes? >> yeah. you know, congressman lu, i want to bring you back n as somebody who has to take an oath to protect and defend the constitutionst united states, to be in the office that you're in as does the president of the united states, and, you know, gary kasperov, a former chess champion, he tweeted the other day, autocrats when caught. number one, deny, lie, slanlder accusers. number two, say it was a misunderstanding. and the third stage is boast and say what are you going to do about it? i'm wonldering, you know, as an elected official, what is the consequences really for the republic if donald trump and his team were found, let's say, to have actively colluded and participates in our election and then nothing is done about it? >> one of the most shocking things about the donald trump administration is disrespect for the rule of law. you see it in this meeting with the russian lawyer.

you see it with jared kushner who had to submit three security clearance forms because he lied on first two. you see it with michael flynn, you see it with the lying by jeff sessions to congress. and this is something that is so dangerous to the republic. i'm glad we have a special counsel mueller right now. i believe he'll do the right thing. when you see indictments coming, then you're going to see that our democracy is once again on right track. >> and, you know, herb, i want to ask you this question. i meant to as the guest yesterday but i got to distracted by the funny hat pictures that i neglected to x i'll ask you. if in the 2020 election the government of iran were to decide that it would like to please weigh in and help out one of the presidential campaigns, would you have the same attitude toward that kind of intervention? it's really not a big enough deal for us to spend a lot of time on? >> look, i think intervention is a crime or it could be a crime. i mean the point about all of this is that there isn't sufficient evidence to draw any conclusions. all i'm saying to you is i think

very bad judgement was exercised. i agree that point. i think that donald trump jr. should have conducted him snefl a different manner. i also believe that it's inappropriate for a foreign government to be involved in any american election. i do think that it challenges the integrity of our elections. there isn't any disagreement on that. >> just donald trump jr., what about the others? what about the meeting that jared kushner had secretly with a russian bank in which he attempted -- he wanted to and expressed a willingness to set up closed communications that would be out of the ear shot of the intelligence community? or donald trump himself who seems to have called on russia to continue to hack hillary clinton in the dnc's e-mails? just trump jr. or the entire team? >> one thing you have to understand, is again, are we talking about -- do we have sufficient evidence to call this a crime? >> that's what the investigation is for. that's what the investigation is for. >> that's what the investigation is for. that's what mr. mueller -- that's what -- >> do you support the investigation? >> i do. >> okay.

>> i want to quickly, before we let you go, just let you know, since did you use this talking point earlier. i'm sorry to my team for doing. this the thing that you talked about earlier, herb london, uranium one deal. it was not hillary clinton's to veto or approve. she as secretary of state was not the person who had the authority over vetoing or approving that deal. despite this transfer of ownership, criticism of her, all of the uranium in question remained and remains in the united states. and the timing of any donations of the clinton foundation does not even match the time line of this deal. so that is in fact a false claim. i want to let you know that so you're not going out and peddling that claim. we're going to move on and stay with. this i want to make sure we understood. that i want to play a sound bite. there is donald trump in his paris presser on thursday. and this is what he was saying about the meeting that his son took. do we have time? >> from a practical stand point, most people would have taken that meeting. it's called opposition research or even research into your opponent.

i've had many people -- i've only been in politics for two years, but i've had many people call up oh, gee, we have information on this factor or this person or frankly hillary. that's very standard in politics. politics is not the nicest business in the world. but it's very standard where they have information and you take the information. >> rose, i'm going go with you on this. do you know of any american that is in politics that you've ever e encount thaerd wou encountered that would take that meeting? >> no, it's crazy. maybe in the donald trump world of new york real estate. it is not standard in washington, d.c. i know people in the national security and foreign policy communities that would not accept social invitations to embassy parties because they're so concerned about even the appearance of impropriety. i mean this is -- i do think this is partly about the gulf between the two different worlds. the trumps and the circle are used to living in this world where it's all about

entertainment and appearance and you can get dirt on people and if it looks bad, you just brazen it out in the tabloids. they're not used to this world of national security and law enforcement which is not a game. consequences actually matter. people are very, very careful. it's insane to take that meeting. i think you could stop random people on the street in washington, d.c., and say what do you i good idea that that you're told that russian government wants to help you win the election? are you nuts? call the lawyer right away, call the fbi right away. don't go to that meeting. >> i think that is good advice for rosa brooks. thank you for being on the show. congressman lu. michelle and herb will be back later on. next up, why russian oligarchs love donald trump. four seconds on the clock, down by one. championship on the line. erin "the sharpshooter" shanahan fakes left. she's outside of the key, she shoots... ...she scores! uh... yes, erin, it is great time to score a deal.

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tonight, the end of an era. gorbachev said sfru to go, you have to go. it's that time. >> tonight in moscow at the kremlin, the red flag of the sailed if you soviet union after the last came down and the flag of russia rose. a symbol now of a new experiment here. >> after the collapsest soviet union and in the frenzied race from communism to capitalism that followed, the russian government scrambled to unload major state oenld assets. everything from factories to gas and oil companies and newly minted capitalists eagerly bought them up. russians called it priva tiza sia or gratification. the men and -- they were all men -- who acquired the assets became known as the oligarchs, a group of unbelievably wealthy russians with ties so close to

the kremlin that it's hard to tell where the companies end and the state begins. and now running it all is putin. not an oligarch himself, per se, but the leader of what one economist recently described as russia inc where putin personally works as the executive director. and a man who through brute force managed to make the oligarchs answer to him or else. he admires putin's setup. but why does russia love him? here to help me answer that is vice chairman of the pro-democracy group open rush yachlt thank you so much for being here. >> thank you for having me. >> let's talk about that. that open ended question. obviously donald trump admires the sort of oligarchic setup of ru russia. he admires putin's strength y does russia love him back? >> let's be careful about the terms. when we talk about when people talk about russia or the russians, they often mean the

regime of putin and the system he built. and that's a very uncomfortable equation to make for many of russians like myself. please be careful about the terms. the problem is not the russian people. it's the authoritarian regime of there putin. when we talk about the oligarchs and russian oligarchs which you just talked about in your interduction, i think it's very important to show the difference what we used to know as the russian oligarchs in the '90s and into the early years plaintiff putin's rule and what we know about them today. >> yeah. >> the old oligarchs were in many ways independent actors. there were people that made the fortunes and billions in the privatization years. but they often behaved independently. some of them oenwned media outlets. others were russia's richest man had a oil company, actually con fronted and exposed government corruption and supported opposition parties necessity elections. that's when we still had

elections. and, of course, when mr. putin came to power, he quickly ended all of that and these old oligarchs were sent into exile or they were impresidented and spent more ten years in jail on political fabricated charges. so the people we know as russian oligarchs to day, it's not a very accurate term today. oligarch, that's supposed -- >> it implies they have power. >> exactly. these people really don't. the people we know as russian oligarchs to day are the people who are mr. putin's old associates, uche lit cronies, friends, either from the kgb days or his colleagues from petersburg days or former judo partners. these are all people that owe the fortunes to putin pt it's debatable, i think, what you said a couple minutes ago that mr. putin cannot be described as an oligarch. in many ways he can be. and all those people who suddenly became billionaires out

november where within a space of a few years, they owe everything to putin. it's in exchange for political loyalty. so many of them are used, you know, they are given political tasks by the regime. now the names we've been hearing in the past few days in connection with this meeting at trump tower a year ago, the name we've been hearing most often is a man who is not someone that described as belonging to the very close circle of putin. but he is somebody with very good connections to the current regime. we know this, for example, by the fact that he is getting lucrative government contracts. you cannot do that unless you have contacts to the regime. he is given contracts to build an apex summit. he is currently involved in a construction of two stadiums for the upcoming 2018 world football championship in russia. and he's also someone who is connected to the prosecutor general in putin's regime.

>> this is person called the crowned prosecutor? >> yes. that is pretty amusing. the last time they had a crowned prosecutor was 1917, yes, the russian empire. but he meant the general prosecutor. it is on paper this is the equivalent of the u.s. attorney general. >> okay. >> but that's where the analogy ends. he is somebody who first of all, of course, is responsible as putin's prosecuting general for a slast politically motivated prosecutions against opposition activists and leaders. we have more than 100 political prisoners today. and, of course this will be the person, one of the people at least will be in charge of putting them there. >> right. >> but also, as a major anti-corruption investigation, that was conducted in 2015 by a prominent opposition figure in russia and head of the anti-corruption foundation, that investigation showed mr. chenka is also someone with shady business dealings, with corrupt connections. that investigation showed the shady business dealings of his sons, the assets of the hiding.

and also connections of mr. chenka's entourage and organized crime dealings. >> when you talk about organized crime, we're going to talk a little late we are a journalist who has been covering this for a long time and talks about this nexus between, you know, russian billionaires who either left the country or sometimes leave the country and do a lot of business in the united states. a lot of business in new york. a lot of business in real estate and, therefore, a lot of connections to donald trump. how is that a business -- is that where we would find the nexus of this scandal, really that, trump's business associations and where does the men choose to do smch business here? and put so much money here? >> well, of course, a lot of these people are used by the kremlin and putin regime, you know, for the sake of political influence and influence operations. >> so if they're doing business here, they may be sending information back home. >> or they may be using the presence here and business dealings here in order to gain some political advantage which

is actually very possible what the kremlin is trying do in this case, try to gain influence with somebody who could well become the next u.s. president. >> sure. >> i think it's also very important to talk about the actual purpose of that meeting a little more than a year ago at trump tower. this is very often overlooked in this town. the main purpose of that meeting, the reason it was sought by those two kremlin connected people at the meeting was the act. this is the key to all of this. it is a law that was passed by the u.s. congress a little less than five years ago, 2012. >> right. >> with huge bipartisan majorities in both houses. doesn't often happen in this town in the last few years zbhch. >> right. >> opposition from the obama they were against it but it passed. that was an absolutely ground breaking law. it introduced sanctions not against russia as the country or the government of russia but

against specific individuals involved in corruption. so it did something that not many laws do. they assigned responsibility where it is actually due. the late leader was instrument nall convincing congress to pass this law enforcement called it the most pro russian law ever passed in the history of any foreign parliament. and the reason this law is so damaging, as well as being very honorable and noble, the reasons so damage to the putin regime and the reason they're so desperate and been so desperate to get rid of it, is because it strikes right at the heart of the corrupt system that putin has built because these people, they want to steal in russia and spend in the west. >> right. >> they're engaging human rights and corruption in our country. they steal if russian taxpayers. but they want to buy up nice real estate and n. western countries, send their kids to study in western schools, store their money in western banks. this law is about ending that hypocrisy and double standard. >> yeah. >> and the kremlin is

desperately trying to get rid of that law. the purpose of that meegt set up in june 2016 was in the case of a trump victory to get this law overturned in the u.s. so i think it is very important to see that the current administration continues to implement it and enforce the act as mr. tillerson the kusht secretary of state publicly pledged to do during the senate confirmation hearings. >> it feels like the answer to the question is why does trump love russia, i mean yshgs does the russian government love donald trump, because he can help them get what they want. >> they say he tried to get rid of this law enforcement i think it's important to see that that law is not gotten rid of. >> we'll follow up this. thank you so much. i really appreciate you coming down and explaining. that thank you very much. coming up, trump care has a major roadblock. that's next.

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the vote on the senate health care bill has been delayed, again. yesterday john mccain's office announced on friday he would undergone a procedure to remove a blood clot from a above his eye. and will be recovering in arizona for the next week. under the care of doctors from the mayo clinic. following that announcement, late last night senate majority leader mitch mcconnell cannot spare a single vote released this statement. the vote is on hold until mccain recovers. joining me now is national spokesperson for moveon.org, "washington post" columnist and

npr reporter jeff bennett. you're new to the show and table. we'll let you go first. give us the update. does the delay in the bill mean more time to essentially offer sweeteners to get people onboard or does it jeopardize the bill? >> i think it means both of those things. the passage of time has not been good for this bill. one of the reasons we know that mcconnell and other republican leaders want to really rush to have a vote is basically to stop the opposition effort from mobilizing. and opposition effort which doesn't just include the political left as we might assume and consumer groups but also medical, major medical organizations and the health care lobby. all of those major industry groups are all opposed to this bill. republican leaders know. that that's one of the reasons why they were trying to get a vote on the -- to start the debate and then to pass the bill. with mccain gone, they can't get a debate and that's huge. >> e.j., even before john mccain tie the sabbatical, progress reported that another problem for the bill is presented which is when ron johnson, congressman -- senator ron johnson said he changed his mind

and declared that the motion to proceed now is in jeopardy because he's upset that apparently mitch mcconnell is telling the caucus, and, jeff, if i get this wrong, correct me, he said the moderates shouldn't worry about it because medicaid cuts are so far in the future that they won't take effect. essentially, they're lying about the medicaid cuts because they're not going to be taken because they're so far in the future. >> the problem now is if they actually r actually aren't serious about the medicare cuts, you're voting for a very big deficit in the future f they're lying about that, millions of people really will use their health care. if they're caught either way. i think that this is a bill that will not lose with 51 no votes. i think if the republicans -- if another republican goes, i think a lot of other republicans are going to go at the same time. >> yeah. >> and i think that the key role here, one key role is governor brian sandoval of nevada. he may be the guy standing

between 20 plus million people losing their health insurance. he's very critical of the bill so far. senator dean haller of nevada may well follow his lead. if he goes no, the bill is dead. >> yeah. >> the republicans and president trump are pugt a ttting a ton o pressure on san voluntadoval to that happens, that's going to be a real problem. >> because he is in such jeopardy for his re-election. >> it's a hillary state and there are a lot of beneficials. >> and it's a harry reed state. >> yeah. >> and now you have another governor of arkansas also kind of undecided on the bill saying he's not there yet. still evaluated. concerned what i perceive to be cautious from the states. we ought to go back and put a pencil to it. you know, "the new york times" are reporting on saturday that governors in general are getting

a chilly reception to the bill. there are huge medicaid populations. so is the potential that he is simply lying to more moderate senators to the extent they exist and saying oh, we're not going to really do it do, you think that will work? >> well, here's the thing. you have mitch mcconnell lying. you have vice president mike pennsylvania lying to the governors. >> explain that a little bit. >> it was unbelievable. first of all, let's remember that mike pence took the federal government money to participate in medicaid expansion under aca. now he's saying oh, no, it's not going to be touched. medicaid is going to be just fine. we want to make sure that everyone gets health care. which is not true. just look at the cbo score. it tells you everything. from the last version of the bill that we saw and let's not forget paul ryan is the one who appointed the person who be -- to head the cbo office. so it's just a bunch of lies that continue. it won't stop. and i think that the longer that this plan is out there, the better it is for the 20 plus

million people who are about to lose their health care. and harder for mitch mcconnell. and because this bill is so unpopular and the longer it's out, there the more unpopular it becomes. >> let's bring up polls. you go eve. >> i want to jump n i so agree that world lying is very important here. they really cannot make their case without lying. >> right. >> and hard r. papart of the li obamacare is collapsing and can't be saved. mitch mcconnell gave away the fact that this isn't true by warning republicans if we don't pass this bill, we're going to have to fix obamacare. >> right. >> but by which he is saying there are some tweaks that could make this work quite well, thank you very much. and then as time has gone on, they've had trouble defending the bill because, you know, they have to say the cbo is lying and incompetent. that's not what they said when the cbo scored obamacare. they said a lot of things about

their bill that aren't true. >> all of this begets the question, then why even push for the bill in the first place? it's because republicans believe and i think they're right about this that the political cost of doing nothing is far greater than passing a bill that might be flawed on the merits. >> there is a suggestion that they will be primary by the 5% to 10% of people in the individual insurance market and then the percentage of them who don't want to have insurance? >> that's the take away. and for all of the many gerrymander districts across the country, you have the deeply red areas this is particularly true in the house side, of course, they will really pay a price with the constituents if they do nothing having promised this for the last seven years. >> the arcane senate rules that becomes harder for them to do the thing which they really want to do which is cut taxes. i think that is a piece of. this. >> we are out of time. if this collapses, will democrats get any credit for it or is this going to collapse because of republicans? >> i think it's all on republicans. they had seven years, joy, and six months this year and this is

the best that they can come up with? something that kills people? >> and a bill that will kill people. absolutely. keep the current number of people on medicaid, republicans, 52% of republicans say keep the current number of people on medicaid. 90% of democrats, 72% total, it is not a popular bill. you'll be back. jeff, welcome. >> thank you. >> great to be here. >> we'll you have back more. coming up in our next hour, the president's lawyer makes the sunday morning rounds. and the tv show that has everyone waiting for winter! more "a.m. joy" after this. (woman vo) is now a good time

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the nation of qatar unfortunately has historically

been a funder of terrorism at a very high level. and in the wake of that conference nations came together and spoke to me about confronting qatar over its behavior. >> after donald trump's mid east trip earlier this year, saudi arabia and united arab emirates launched a political and economic blockade of qatar, seemingly out of the blue, citing its alleged funding of terrorist organizations, and even as secretary of state, the much ignored rex tillerson is trying to end the blockade, trump has been praising it. his son-in-law, jared kushner, was reportedly one of the only whi white house advisers encouraging the hard line. the intercept reports kushner's real estate company tried and failed to get a half billion dollar investment from qatar's former prime minister.

that revelation prompting this headline from ""vanity fair."" is kushner punishing qatar over a soured real estate deal? joining me, christopher mets letter and ayman mohyeldin. ayman, i am going to start with you. this blockade of qatar is confounding for many reasons, the close ties the united states has to qatar, 11,000 troops there, the seeming western orientation in terms of partnering with american institutions. do you get the sense in the reporting that there's anything to that "vanity fair" headline, that jared kushner may be pushing for this taking the saudi arabian side for business rather than geopolitical reasons? >> that's a very difficult question to answer because it boils down to intentions, personal intentions and knowing what's in the mind of jared kushner and whether or not he has any personal grievances against qatar. hard for me to answer that question. i can tell you from my own reporting, having spoken to

officials on both sides, even those that were close to working out that deal was in fact that there was a time in which the kushner family properties tried to secure funding from a private citizen in qatar who you mentioned was at the time former prime minister of the country for the amount of $500 billion. and that deal did in fact sour in recent months, as early as january or february of 2016. so the time line would suggest this is something that happened recently, and for various reasons and for various business reasons that decision was not taken by the former prime minister. he didn't think it was a sound business deal, perhaps carried with it a lot of baggage at the same time jared kushner was moving into the white house, so as a result qatar pulled out of that, and that is definitely a fact. what we don't know as you were mentioning there, the article suggests from the intercept that jared kushner held a grudge over that deal souring. >> stay with this a minute. the qatar delegation was

recently in washington, wanted to meet with the white house, one of the issues being that they have been dealing with rex tillerson while saudi arabia had a relationship with jared kushner. did you get the sense they were able to find a tie, someone to talk to that has some authority. there are all of these stories tillerson tried to resolve the dispute, failed to do it, doesn't seem to have power. is qatar talking to him or do they have a direct line to the white house that's useful? >> they have multiple chains of communication they're working on, but no doubt that the white house and in particular president trump and certainly his senior adviser, jared kushner and others have somewhat leaned to the side of saudi arabia as well as the united arab emirates. officials on that side of the divide tell me they see a lot of support coming from the white house for the position they've taken, but you're absolutely right, there are clear dwigiviss within foreign policy and defense management.

secretary of state, rex tillerson, they have been more open to listening and engaging with the qatar side of this divide. that's where qatar officials are saying they're trying to work through a diplomatic solution to put an end to the on-going kriez is, but you raise a good point, how much influence does rex tillerson have within the decision-making processes of the united states government. that yet has not emerged clearly. so they're working on that side of the equation. they are also at the highest levels, we know the emir has been in contact with president trump, but not in the nuance of trying to address the list of grievances put forward by the saudis and united arab emirates solving this. >> christine, this is the thing, there are business ties, american universities in qatar. if the issue is terrorism, bob corker, he said saudi terrorism support dwarves qatar's.

reuters had a story about funding terrorism. why do you explain why they're suddenly our enemy? >> you don't. that's the issue. i any that's why this seems so suspect because if you look at saudi in particular, if you look at all of these other countries engaged in the blockade, let he who is without having a hand in terrorism throw the first stone. that's the difficulty. that's why increasingly people are saying is there a relationship between the business deal, because many u.s. universities -- >> can you name some, so people understand, who is there. >> you have georgetown there, you have most of the major universities. >> and think tanks. >> yes. georgetown is there, you have think tanks, you have chicago, a

number of these because remember in qatar what happened is we created essentially with the government a university campus. >> right. >> so as a result of that, you have all those. cornell is there, you have all those schools that are there, and that's very concerning. >> and 11,000 u.s. troops. it is a story we're going to continue to follow. please come back. we want to follow-up what's going on with this. thank you. up next, earth 2. more "am joy" after the break. clouds can't connect? michael, can we get this data to...? look at me...look at me... look at me... you used to be the "yes" guy. what happened to that guy? legacy technology can handcuff any company. but "yes" is here. so, you're saying we can cut delivery time? yeah. with help from hpe, we can finally work the way we want to. with the right mix of hybrid it,

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election. tuesday was the biggest news day of the week. the day the president's eldest son, donald trump jr. showed they were eager for the russian's help. this is how cnn led that coverage that night. >> our breaking news, the president's eldest son reveals what he, his father and everyone in trump orbit denied more than a year now. >> we have to figure out what is going to happen next, what ought to happen next, what is likely to happen next, now that the trump campaign has admitted that they worked with the russians. >> on tuesday night, fox news also covered the controversy in a big way with trump junior himself joining sean hannity for an exclusive interview, but not before hannity offered a monologue about how the real story was about, wait for it, ukraine. >> for all of the members of the destroy trump media that happen to tune out to my show, get out your pad and pen, you may learn

a thing or two. and the question you people in the media need to start asking yourselves is why don't you tell the american people every story. for example, back in january the politico, hard members of the right wing conspiracy, published this explosive report. quote, ukrainian efforts to sabotage trump back fire. >> what alternate planet is fox news occupying? some people have an answer to that. it is called earth 2. the parallel universe where there is no russia gate and the real villains are hillary clinton, barack obama, loretta lynch, and of course the media. joining me, political consultant, equal rights attorney and advocate, tamera holder, curt ike enwalled and herb london. tamera. i have to come to you first. you have been a fox news contributor, you know what it's like over there. i want to play for you a mashup of some of the reactions to

russia gate on friday. take a look. >> everybody wants to talk about russia russia russia, but russia doesn't effect anybody. >> instead of pointing the finger at donald trump jr., saying maybe he is colluding, big word, colluding with the rugs, maybe the rugs were colluding with the russians for information on donald trump. >> let's get to a story on the other channels, russia russia russia. turns out the russian story is starting to fall apart, looks like she was just a lobbyist and met with members of congress and state department officials and members of the press and washington trying to push this russian adoption thing, right? >> tamera, it is like the earth to brady bunch. russia russia russia. why is it that you think in this sort of alternate media universe there is no russia gate, doesn't exist. >> i'm going to throw a curve ball, i think we're the ones living in the bubble. i think fox news viewers are

there, they're stuck there, they aren't going anywhere and are mad at the mainstream media, mad at us at cnn and msnbc because there's no conversation about jobs. we can talk about social issues all day long, talk about black lives matter, important. talk about lbgt issues, opioid, important, we can talk about all these things. but until we have these finger issues and attach it to the main issue which is jobs, nobody is going to listen to us because the jobs of america have left. people are hurting and until we understand the plight of the american people, hillary clinton's dnc convention talking about all the things i just tacked about are not going to resonate with the american people. that's where fox news has it right and that's where we have it wrong. we need to understand people want to work.

there are gay republicans, there are republicans who lost their lives to gun violence, but they want to work and put food on the table. and until we understand that and we understand it and talk about it, they are going to be over there. >> okay. i want to go to fernando, get you to respond. there's polling out now that even in trump counties, counties where trump carried, and this is released this morning, this is our nbc poll. strongly approve 29%, strongly disapprove, 35. these were counties polled in the nbc poll. 439 trump counties. consists of gop democrats and independents, colorado, georgia, et cetera. you can see the map. look at flip versus surge counties. romney won them and trump won them or flip meaning obama won and then trump won. in flip counties, approval 44,

disapprove 51. surge counties it is flipped. it doesn't look like donald trump is weathering the storm, even in some trump counties. is that because there's not enough action on the economy or is that because a lot of americans are actually quite concerned that a foreign government might have helped elect this guy. >> i think you said it best, joy. here on planet earth, i like to still think is the united states of reason where facts matter, where good journalism matters, we see what's happening before us. you just talked about it. a hostile foreign government penetrated our election. we now have undisputable proof of collusion between the russian government and trump campaign. something the campaign all along denied that happened. that was a lie. another lie. the problem is it is easy to cast this issue, joy, folks on the other side watching fox news are in a state of denial. i think that's charitable. it is not a state of denial, it is a state of bad faith. and the question i ask and all

americans of conscience who are trying to put country over party should ask, joy, is why. why do they continue to ignore the obvious when we were told all along by this lying administration that there was no collusion, there was no meeting between representatives of the russian government, we find out on friday a former soviet counter intelligence officer was part of that meeting. and i think it speaks beyond illusion. i think it has a sinister component, and can only mean this involvement goes broader and deeper than first suspected. >> and curt, i want to get you in on this as well. you deal with a fair amount of interaction with those that are angry about the idea that mainstream media is focusing on the russian investigation. you have been reporting on this story. do you feel, and to take her point seriously, that this is as

important in its own -- is it as important as reporting day to day on the economy or is there something about what happened in 2016. >> i am going to be blunt, i think her point was ridiculous. we're talking about a situation seems like nobody understands what happened. certainly not fox news. we had, we were subject to an act of war. this was not some little computer problem. this act of war has been done by russia against england, the netherlands, it has been done against italy, it has been done against france. the entire purpose, our american intelligence agencies know, is to drive a web and break apart the western alliances. yes, it would be nice to talk jobs. we are in a war. and the problem with the trump administration and the propaganda fox news, they look at it only through the prism of

what does it mean for trump, what does it mean for the republican party. i truthfully don't care what it means for trump. i believe we as a nation need to be focused on what do we do about the enemy, what do we do to preserve american democracy. unfortunately you have the fact that trump is a -- not trump, fox is a propaganda network, functions off the idea of breaking people up into teams, so they're aiding and abetting the enemy. they're aiding and abetting those people we are currently at war with. the russians. in order to play for their team, to make it gop versus democrats. it's not. it is the united states of america versus people who are a a country trying to destroy our democracy, break up the western alliance, and in the process fox news is saying don't worry about the russians, don't worry about

people trying to attack democracy, let's attack instead the intelligence agencies giving us these conclusions, let's pretend the democrats are involved, and let's return to tax cuts. it's obscene. it is propaganda, and it has to stop. the republican party which unfortunately jennifer rubin, conservative, wrote this morning is in opposition to reality. the republican party has to take over and decide whether or not they're going to allow the propaganda to drive democracy or side with america and help fight this enemy. >> and i'm going to let tamera respond. herb, you wrote a book, title is "leading from behind" and talks about america seeding global leadership. it is striking to me this idea that what all our intelligence agencies had described as act of war, vladimir putin doesn't mean

america any good, he wants to dismantle american leadership in the world. republicans argued for a long time the problem with democrats is that democrats won't recognize we're at war, unfortunately they want to say we're at war with slislam. it is striking that you have republicans denying we are essentially being made war upon in terms of the cyber attack on our country. and here is tucker carlson doing that thing, talking to lieutenant colonel ralph peters, a fox news commentator tuesday. this is an extraordinary exchange. take a listen. >> i'm not vouching for putin's character, strong man for sure, wouldn't want to live there. >> he is a killer. >> hard to see why he is a threat. how many wars can we fight at once, how many can we be in opposition to. why not accept people that are bad people share our interests. >> you sound like charles limbburg saying hitler hasn't

attacked. >> you can't compare me to someone making apologies for hitler. >> i think putin is. >> that's a grotesque overstatement. >> putin -- >> that's insane. >> you can think it is insane. >> you compared me to a nazi apoll gist because i asked a simple question, slow down, which is why doesn't it contra convenient american interest and cause with a group trying to kill isis. >> herb, he went on to say we made common cause with stalin to fight hitler and implied america didn't have a problem. the cold war came after that. do you find it extraordinary. we had him describing how violent the putin regime is. it doesn't mean us any good. isn't it odd for republicans to say that's not that big of a deal? >> it is a big deal. i am very much concerned about vladimir putin and his motives. quote obviously in foreign policy matters our interests diverge with the russians, but

there may be areas we converge, fighting terrorism might be one. when you draw the conclusion that american people are opposed to the trump administration because of these russian stories, i don't believe that for a moment. i don't think most people really care. i think when you come back to it, it is true, let me finish this point, if i may. it is true that when you look at the blue curtain, the reason why it was penetrated by the republicans is in large part because the democrats ignored people that lost their jobs and by and large felt that washington, d.c. was not responsive. the republican party did respond in some fashion to what was going on. again, to suggest that there's a war going on at the moment, yes, of course our interests and the russian interests are not likely to converge. pointed out in the 19th century, russians have their interests, we have our interests. they are not likely to converge except in certain areas. >> they are converging in a lot of ways. donald trump believes russia should get back spy compounds, wants a cyber initiative with

them. wants to make our interests converge with russia. the argument being made in a sense by tamera and herb are democrats are making the mistake because the american people don't care about that. if the american people don't care about that, isn't that a problem? >> here's the thing, i want to respond to what he said. republicans spent 8 years of obama administration being the no party. and it got them nowhere. now we're six months into 2017. they can't even governi. have the most popular pieces of legislation they can't get out of congress. here's the thing to step back a second. you have a president who is getting daily policy and intelligence briefing from fox news which essentially has become state run media at this point, so there aren't enough adjectives to describe how bad this all is. it is shameful, it is dangerous,

disgusting what's happening now. we are stepping into a place that's incredibly dangerous when you have the president of the united states who wants to be buddies with an adversary, who wants to take away potential sanctions, who won't admit our 17 intelligence agencies are correct there was a cyber attack on our democracy. >> who may invite him to the white house. tamera, i want to talk to you, your name was in vehicled. strikes me as odd for any american to say it is not a big enough deal that russia may have helped pick our president, that that's not a big enough deal to spend more time on that than talk about the economy. i don't know. i find that odd. >> the thing is first of all, i think maybe a lot of viewers don't know that i'm a democrat who worked at fox news. i understand the viewership there, i understand the plight

of the american people, especially the viewers there, and we can talk about russia all day long, and all the other issues that i brought up that are social issues, and i'm not disputing the fact that any of those things are true, that russia or false, but the point is why, as herb said, the curtain was penetrated. why did people go there. why are people not listening here. because they feel as if we are not listening to them and everybody in america wants to put food on the table at the end of the day. they don't care about syrian refugees, if they can't feed their family. >> right. >> and you worked with many other talents, you worked in talk radio and experienced this with callers, i have been on your show. this idea, after pearl harbor did people say move on, stop talking about japan? >> joy, can you imagine if after 9/11, i think coverage of 9/11

was wall to wall, appropriately as it should have been for months if not years on the nature of that attack on american soil, as curt spoke of, this is a different type of attack but attack nonetheless. what that attack has done, joy, it has tainted legitimacy of the administration, it is not only smoke, there's fire. fire in the name of lies the administration tried to get us to swallow which is now provable lies based on great reporting by outlets by nbc and "the washington post" has done. the idea we're going to talk about jobs and issues that are important against the backdrop of the specter of the third great attack on american soil of a different sort is ridiculous. that's why polling today sees the president at 36% approval, amongst lowest this early in an administration. >> curt. >> i think one of the things we have to do, i love what was just said. i think one of the big problems

here is that all our allies recognize we're in a war. i don't mean the trump administration, i mean america is too dumb to understand we're in a war. i'm sorry, i'm going to be blunt. >> that's ridiculous, to call the american people dumb is the most losing argument ever. >> hold on. let me, this is not where i was going to go to. every time people are opening their mouths in this thing is what about politics, what about politics, what about politics. i'm not saying the average american is dumb. i'm saying we are, i'm saying the people that don't understand that this is a war, that our intelligence agencies recognize it's a war, that the defense intelligence agency recognizes it's a war, that our allies recognize it's a war, and people are saying it is not a politically winning argument, who cares. it's exactly like 9/11.

9/11 is not a politically winning argument. this is worse than 9/11 because it is an attack on the functioning of democracy. >> i wonder if i can raise a point. >> we're out of time, if you can be quick. >> victory or war, i wonder why president obama said when the mike was off we're going to be a lot more flexible than we were in the past. >> who cares. >> what about obama is a losing, lame argument. you have to release him into the universe, let him go. not to editorialize, if the legitimacy of the president of the united states is even in question, that's fundamentally more important than the current gdp. it is so foundational to whether we are a demonstraticracy or no. did we pick our own president. i have to say as an american, i would prefer one party to the other, fine. but i want us to pick them. we should pick our president.

that's all i'm going to say. leave it there. thank you very much. hope you guys come back. appreciate you being here. donald trump sends his lawyer out across the air waves. stay with us. noo introducing the easiest way to get gillette blades text "blades" to gillette on demand text to reorder blades with gillette on demand... ...and get $3 off your first order

you used the phrase coverup. let's be realistic here. you had lawyers on your broadcast, nbc had lawyers on their network, and everybody is coming to the same conclusion regarding the legality. there's nothing illegal about the meeting, there's nothing about covering up. big word to use, but there was nothing illegal to cover up. >> at least twice in the last

month the president has turned to one man to lrepresent him on the sunday talk shows. he chose his personal lawyer, jay sekulow. in fact, just this morning that trump needed sekulow's legal services so much that sekulow pulled off a rare paul ginsberg, nerdy political term for appearing on all five sunday talk shows. did four of the five on june 19th. everybody knows you guys. fernand, i will have you respond. this is jay sekulow talking about when he himself knew about the don junior meeting. >> did you only find out then? is that a concern to you that you're not getting all the information you need? >> we don't represent donald

trump jr., we don't represent the campaign, we represent the president. in that sense we didn't have access to the information or control of data like that, president doesn't have control of data like that. that was information that either donald trump jr. had or the campaign had, wherever the information was stored. that would not have been information the president of the united states would have had. >> fernand, are they throwing don junior under the bus? >> you listen to that comment by jay sekulow. the american people don't care what jay sekulow thinks. i certainly don't. they don't care what donald trump thinks. there's only one person in america that every patriotic american, democratic, republican, independent cares about what they think, that person is special counselor robert mueller. it doesn't really matter what anybody says any more. this administration has lost all of its credibility. let's wait and see what mueller says. that's the sheriff they need to be worried about passing judgment. >> absolutely.

careen, at the same time that sheriff is tied to an undersheriff who was fired, duke colby. here is sekulow blaming this on comey. >> the basis upon which this entire special counsel investigation is taking place is based on what, illegally leaked information that was a conversation of the president of the united states with the then fbi director, and that to me is problematic from the outset, and i think that raises very serious legal issues as to the scope and nature of what can really take place. >> this is essentially accusing jim comey of a crime. >> it is, it is unbelievable what we're seeing here. i hope jay sekulow gets paid, he has a history of not paying for anything. there's a story about trump asking rnc to pay for his legal issues. we'll see where it goes on there. look, we cannot believe anything that they have to say when it

comes to russia, they have lied time and time again. so it's just a waste of our time, this pr, public relations, is not going to work. i agree with what ayman said. the american people care about what is happening to our country. this is not going to get us anywhere. >> going to get us another sound bite. jay, for you, this is sekulow talking about donald trump's involvement and what that might have been. take a listen. >> tell me about the reports that the president was involved in the initial response that donald trump jr. gave "new york times." >> so i read those reports as well, and the president was not -- did not draft the response. the response came from donald trump jr., i'm sure in consultation with his lawyer. >> was he asked to read the statement before it was given to "new york times" on air force one? >> i can't say whether the president was told the statement was coming from his son on that, i didn't have that conversation.

i want to be clear, the president was not involved in drafting of the statement. >> that's contrary to reporting, ej, and feels like don junior is on an island, lonely. >> to use a phrase, depending what the meaning of the word craft is. what's clear from the reporting is donald trump cooperated in the production of that statement which suggests that yet again he was trying to mislead about russia. and i think the big problem in the pr about this is they have what one conservative commentator called russian amnesia, that every time there was some meeting with some russian, somehow it wasn't reported, wasn't talked about. then they say oh, yeah, i forgot that. why is the thing they keep for getting about russia. and that's why there's such skepticism. >> i feel like oprah, you get a sound bite, now michelle bernard, here comes the emerging ukrainian defense which is bubbling up from a lot of

republicans. here it is. >> opposition research, if it would have materialized is not a thing of value. never been a case that said opposition research is a thing of value. i don't think it is appropriate to conflat. the exact transaction which was not solicitation by the trump campaign, it was offer of opposition research. compare that to what took place with ukrainians and dnc where they were working in collusion with each other. >> now it is the ukrainians again. what's happening? >> it is always president obama, hillary clinton, or the ukrainians. >> or the media. >> or the fake news. the fault never falls within the people who are engaged at the very best, just complete moral terp tud. they're giving a new definition to trickle down economics, drip drip drip, a little more information every day, tears away at the democracy and tears

away at the economy. >> one other problem they're going to have, we now have reporting from huffington post that the trump campaign paid $50,000 to don junior's criminal defense lawyer 11 days before the "new york times" story broke, so they had some consciousness that he had some legal problems. hard to say we don't talk to don junior, he does his own thing. >> not only that, the chatter within the intelligence community by the way, intelligence community, all agencies of the u.s. government say russia was involved and there's evidence of trump collusion, what's going to happen if another shoe drops. bad enough this meeting, my understanding is this is tip of the iceberg. what happens if signal intercepts come out with audio conversations, are they going to say they're doctored at that point? jay sekulow, a lawyer lying on behalf of a president who lies. we don't have to take those comments seriously. what we have to take seriously is evidence coming out in the media. that's where you have to await

what the actions of this administration are because it is going to get worse. >> does say something about the state that they're in, that they're having to send out sebastian gork and subject in the guardian that his firm was steal millions, this firm raising money off the religious, having them give to his organizations and it was going to his family, that's what they have left to send out. >> that's what they do, trump deals with shady characters. we saw it when he was ceo of his organization and now as president. unfortunately it is going to hurt us. and the other thing i wanted to point out, let's not forget a week ago with a white house statement that was basically a lie. >> which one? >> the one of don junior. it was an outright lie and it was a cover up. you have the white house being involved in a cover up. >> republicans don't have the backbone yet to stand up to trump. i am talking about saying

congressional leaders, but they're not foolish enough it seems to go out and defend all this stuff, so trump has to rely entirely on the inner circle, pray the republicans continue not to criticize him, but it just shows you how bad some of this stuff is. >> meanwhile, conspicuously absent on sunday shows is one mike pence, seems to be trying to quarantine himself inside a bubble even though he has exposure too. >> he does. his spokesperson was asked on fox news earlier this week several times pointedly, has the vice president ever had meetings with the russian government or russian officials and went out of his way to refuse to answer the question. >> no one can remember anything. we don't remember russians or meetings. thank you. loved this panel. coming up, a look at donald trump's long-standing ties to businesses, where? say it together, russia.

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to fully understand russia's current political relationship with donald trump, the president, you have to look into russia's past financial relationship with donald trump, the business man. last month, journalist tim o'brien did a deep dive into one of those ties. a development deal involving trump and felix saider, trump family associate with ties to russian and american organized crime. brian's report includes these words from trump in a 2007 deposition about his meeting with russian investors.

quote. it's ridiculous that i wouldn't be investing in russia, trump said in that deposition. russia is one of the hottest places in the world for investment. tim o'brien joins me now, he is executive editor of bloomberg view and author of trump nation, the art of being the donald. tim, i have been eager to have this conversation with you. always enjoy you when you're on with rachel and other shows and with lawrence o'donnell. here's the question. for those not caught up, who is he, how is he tied to donald trump? >> felix sader was a principal in the bay rock group, operated two floors beneath donald trump's own office in trump tower in new york. and for a long stretch of time from early 2000s until about 2010 or so they were actively involved investment deals together, most specifically and prominently the trump soho hotel in lower manhattan.

sader had long-standing ties to russian and u.s. organized crime groups. he was informant for the federal government, he visited donald trump's office daily, he cook ivanka and don junior on a business trip to russia to moscow to prospect development deals. he served time in prison for assault, slashing another man's face with a broken margarita glass. and he is someone who the president has repeatedly said i can't really remember who this person is, if i was in a room, i wouldn't know what he looked like, yet they were hip to hip in business together for a long time. >> i want to get to that question of whether or not donald trump, you have been sued by donald trump. he has claimed that you made false accusations against him, libel, slan derd him. your lawyers were able to depose him. doing that, were you able to get to the truth of what or not

donald trump not only knows him but knows he was involved in organized crime? >> on both counts, joy, it is undisputable. he knows exactly who he is and knew he had ties to organized crime. when i was at the "new york times," i wrote a book about the president, "trump nation." when he sued me for libel in that case we deposed him two days in late 2007 and specifically asked him about his relationship with felix sader and whether it concerned him that he had organized crime ties. and at the time president trump said that he would have to look into the matter further, he would consider it, la la la. that was 2007. the relationship apparently never ended. earlier this year in yet another strange turn in many strange turns we have become used to, sader emerged as a trio along with the president's personal

attorney michael cohen trying to push a peace plan to michael flynn for the ukraine. >> and is felix sader tied in to vladimir putin, is there a connection to the russian government? >> you know, it is like everything in this, we have to be very careful. i think vladimir putin operates at a high level in this stuff, he plays chess and other characters that emerge in trump lan dia play checkers. there was money came into the bay rock group through iceland and other locales that was questionable, believed to be places that were money laundering centers. it is an open question, one of the things i imagine robert mueller will look at. >> lastly, excerpt from your bloomberg story, you talk about donald trump being a micro manager, had to agree to every

term. nothing happened unless he said to do t even if don junior shook hands, he came downstairs to renegotiate if his father told him to. donald trump jr. was operating on his own, trump didn't know about it, does that ring true? >> that doesn't ring true at all. the trump children often did as their father told them to do, and anything of substance in the business didn't gel or get signed off on without donald trump senior's approval. >> timothy o'brien, thank you. please come back. appreciate you being here. >> thank you. we will be right back. a programming note. tune in for a special trump at six months. up next on "am joy," the power struggle everyone will be watching tonight.

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enemies to the east. enemies to the west. enemies to the south. enemies to the north. all that stands in our way, we will defeat him. >> after nearly 13 months of waiting, we "game of thrones" fans will finally get to see what happens next.

they're all headed toward an inevitable war. and jackie reid, my play cousin as well as co-host of our brand-new podcast, read this, real that. first of all, cousin jackie, i'm going to have -- ted lu what are you most looking forward to or what are you most anticipating getting the answers to tonight? >> first you had dropped a visual prop. it is the replica iron throne, i keep this on my desk to intimidate people. >> i love it. >> darn you people, we did you

all proud. i endorse that particular prop. so who do you want to sit on the iron throne? >> i got to see the los angeles premier few days ago, you're going to see amount of collusion, lying and cover-ups, the only thing that's missing are some russians. >> have you seen the premiere? >> yes, he can't give us a preview, he's been sworn to silence. what are the two most important thing that you want to see happening tonight or that viewers aviewer s are anticipating. >> i want to see here coming across the waters ready to take

that iron throne. but i also want to see if she and john snow are going to come face-to-face, because we saw in the season finale, that they're actually relatives. there's so many things i want to see, but if i have to boil it down to two, those would be the things. >> these days, it's hard to shock an audience. "game of thrones" has managed to do this. for hbo is this their biggest show at this point? >> it's their biggest hit and the way that they shroud it in secrecy, an actress a few years ago was almost fired for saying she wanted to be in the cast. this season they shot all of these fake scenes, he was on the set for five hours shooting fake scenes to fool the paparazzi, because for years it's been the most leaked, the most pirated

show out there. it will be interesting to see what they do to replace it after its gone, since this is the last season. >> you have your iron throne there, one of the people with a claim to it may be this character dempsey. system do you think we're going to get the answer to whether he is the legit heir to his slain father? >> i think it's possible. what makes "game of thrones" so interesting is that you've got 30 story lines at the same time and is able to keep track of them and more importantly the public is interested and keeps track of it. and it reminds me of being on capitol hill. my wife and i love "game of thrones" because no one gets

beheaded. >> i was going to say there are actually online betting sites, about the one seriously who's going to remain on the throne when it's all today and done, some people say that she's in the lead because there's some inside information. but who knows what's going to happen? >> you know that the reason for that is that despite what you want to say is that searcy is kind of awesome. >> partially, she is a bad woman, i have to say, the way that she like gassed all of her enemies in a blaze of green fire is pretty awesome. but she's just so evil. >> very quickly, i got to get each of your favorite characters, what is your favorite character in game of thrones? >> the answer would be john snow. it would be cool if white walker

sat on the iron throne. >> dadanndanny, are you kidding? all they needed was around the world girls. >> thank you very much. that's our show for today, join us next weekend at 10:00 a.m. even, for more "a.m. joy." and coming up at 6:00 p.m. eastern, the nbc special "trump at six months." more at the top of the hour. award winning design. award winning engine. the volvo xc90. the most awarded luxury suv of the century. this july visit your local volvo dealer to receive sommar savings of up to $4,500.

this july visit your local volvo dealer ♪ mom. ♪ ♪ where all the walls echo with laughter ♪ ♪ and every room has its own chapter ♪ you've carried on your family's tradition. let us help you prepare for your family's future. financial guidance while you're mastering life. from chase. so you can. good day, everyone, i'm alex witt here in new york. it's day 178 of the trump administration, with new polls out today as the president air approaches six months in office. meanwhile his perso