storm, this time criticizing him for not going after hillary clinton. we begin at the white house, waking up with a lot of new faces in new places, shall we say. the president speaking at the commissioning of the "uss gerald ford" in virginia, knowing that the white house is in a major transition. one new face, communications director anthony scaramucciscar. what has hobbled the administration for six months now. the president openly talked about his pardoning powers in the russian investigation into himself and his family. he accused former fbi director james cokie and hillary clinton of committing crimes, then went after attorney general jeff sessions, asking why he is not investigating clinton. one familiar face no longer at the white house, white house press secretary sean spicer, former. he reformed over scaramucci's hire. on fox news, spicer downplayed that change. >> he wanted to bring some new

folks in to help rev up the communications operation. and after reflection, my decision was to recommend to the president that i give anthony and sarah a clean slate to start from so that they can talk about the president's agenda and help move it forward. >> spicer was chief of staff reince priebus's man. and priebus was kept in the dark about the president interviewing scaramucci for that job, as was chief strategist steve bannon. a source telling nbc news priebus initially fought the hiring of scaramucci. after the decision was made, prebus then said he was on board. but his future is also in question. >> get a person in as coms director that he believes in, and sometimes a fresh start is a good thing. sean did a great job, he's a dear friend, as everybody knows. but it is good to start fresh. sean gets to start fresh. anthony gets to start fresh. most importantly, the president gets to start fresh.

i think that's a good thing. >> nbc's kelly o'donnell joins us live at the white house. kelly, starting fresh, certainly new faces and new places come monday. will we see some more new faces and new places? >> reporter: well, we don't have an answer on that yet. we don't know how much turmoil the trump white house wants with its personnel. sean spicer will work through the end of august, helping with the transition, so he isn't out the door yet. i wouldn't imagine he would have any public role going forward now that they've made this transition. anthony scaramucci says he does want to evaluate the larger press operation that works inside the white house. a number of staffers who typically don't have a public role but who we work with all the time, to see if it's the right fit, perhaps he'll bring in his own people, we don't know. he hasn't done this kind of work before. he's very good on television, having hosted in the past and is comfortable appearing on television. but his role as communications

director is really much more about strategy behind the scenes. we'll have to see how much of a public face he will have. it is our expectation that the president likes the way anthony scaramucci presents himself on television. expect to see him doing interviews if not briefings and other things like that. because scaramucci referenced this in his own briefing with reporters yesterday, it's notable that the president makes a point today using twitter. scaramucci had been critical of donald trump as a candidate and in the past. and he writes, the president today, "in all fairness to anthony scaramucci, he wanted to endorse me first before the republican primary started but didn't think i was running." scaramucci had endorsed wisconsin governor scott walker and his candidacy was very short-lived. then jeb bush, then came around to donald trump. but he was so effusive of his praise of the president, used the word "love" many times and praised the president's abilities, so he appears to be

very much on board. he was a part of the transition as well and has been a supporter publicly of the president in these first six months. the president, who we are told has a good relationship with sean spicer, but felt that with some of the parodies that had taken place, the punch lines that had held him up to public jokes about his performance, that that had diminished his effectiveness. the president did tweet about sean spicer, saying he's a wonderful person who took tremendous abuse from the, quote, fake news media but his future is bright. sean spicer's role as the person in front of the lectern, the face of the administration, was not working out, and he had been serving as communications director, doing both jobs, really, he said that he chose to inform the president that he thought the best thing to do was to move on, so he submitted his resignation. so big changes in certainly the part of the white house that we deal with so often, and the

public gets to see, richard. >> which you get to see there, kelly. give us a sense of what that mood is like. the reporting up until yesterday was they were positive, it was also reported that it was up in the air in terms of the mood in the white house. since these announcements, has there been a bit of a shift? >> reporter: nothing that i can say is perceptible. but an important note, today, the president after his public event commissioning a new aircraft carrier, went to his golf club in virginia. and a white house spokesperson told us he was having lunch with white house chief of staff reince priebus, treasury secretary steve mnuchin and his wife, and stephen miller, a top policy adviser and speechwriter. normally they don't tell us who he's spending time with unless there's an important foreign leader visiting. but we asked over the weekend, they usually don't tell us. today they made sure to point out that reince priebus was dining with the attempresident,

think that's an attempt to show he's still in the president's good graces. >> thank you, kelly. a major part of the white house shake-up could be due to the russia investigation. attorney general jeff sessions allegedly did talk about the campaign last year with the russian government, according to "the washington post." the conversations were reportedly caught by u.s. intelligence intercepts. last month jeff sessions denied under oath that it happened. if true, it could put sessions' job in jeopardy. that could make critics question the timing of this purportedly. it comes a day after the president jabbed at sessions specifically, telling "the new york times," if he knew sessions was going to recuse himself from the russia probe, he would never have nominated sessions. the president took a shot at sessions this morning for not investigating hillary clinton in

that tweet you see there. but next week, the russian investigation will hit very close to home. son-in-law jared kushner will be interviewed by both the senate and the house intelligence committees next week. and his son don junior and former campaign manager manafort will be interviewed by the senate judiciary staff. we don't know when but we do know they won't testify publicly yet. this as two former intelligence chiefs just last night blasted the president over his handling of the russia investigation so far, at the ideas conference in aspen. >> i sometimes wonder whether what he's about is making russia great again. i think russia is an existential threat to this country. >> if he's fired by mr. trump or attempted to be fired by mr. trump, i really hope our members congress, our elected representatives, will stand up and say enough is enough. >> it's one thing for officials

to refuse to carry out some of these orders that are inconsistent with what this country is all about. >> nbc's national security reporter ken dilanian, how would you best summarize it for us, ken? >> richard, it's clear that the drip, drip, drip of these russia revelations is really be bedevilling the trump presidency. it's ironic that sessions has his own problem with this "washington post" report raising questions whether he had subjective conversations with the russian ambassador. it's more than just the investigation. current and former intelligence officials here at this conference are concerned about the direction of the trump administration vis-à-vis russia. you know, why is donald trump making conciliatory gestures to vladimir putin? that concern was manifested today in this news that the

congress, the republican-led congress has agreed to impose sanctions on russia that donald trump can't remove. now trump is facing a choice of whether to veto this bill or let it become law, richard. >> ken, we played a little bit there of what was said. james clapper, former cia director john brennan, part of this forum there. reflect on that and also, what is the tone there at the conference, when you get so many big brains in security together? >> that was a rather remarkable panel last night, john brennan and john clapper making very explicit criticisms of donald trump, really reflecting a general concern i've heard here in aspen about concerns that trump is too close to russia, concerns about the investigation, and concerns about donald trump's disparagement of the intelligence community. and you may think these are men that worked for barack obama, it would be normal for them to criticize the republican

president. but its normal. it's not normal for former intelligence chiefs, especially jim clapper who worked 50 years as a career intelligence profession, to level these very explicit criticisms. i mean, he said "sometimes i think donald trump wants to make russia great again." that was a very explicit -- it was a laugh line but reflected serious concerns i'm hearing here in aspen. >> you don't get those sort of comments coming out in that space that you know so well. ken dilanian there for us in aspen, colorado. thank you so much, ken. >> thank you, sir. let's bring in the washington bureau chief of "the chicago sun-times." lynn sweet. lynn, you heard the reporting coming out of ken here, statements being made there at the aspen security forum that have not been said before. as was said, this is not typical of those in the space, of intelligence, to really go off the script, not being, if you will, nonpartisan.

not that he's being partisan politically here but certainly being critical of the way this administration has handled issues so far. >> i'm not surprised, richard, because they have been increasingly candid in their assessment of the trump administration, trump white house, and how they handle and deal with matters of intelligence and national security. one of the things our viewers might want to know is that at this aspen forum, it encourages, just by having all the reporters who cover national security and principal players there, it does create this environment where you get a far more, sometimes, frank conversation going than you might if you're just talking to somebody a few blocks from where we are in washington. but the underscore i have here is that when intelligence professionals, and they're not the only ones, they served in multiple administrations, under presidents of different parties, tell you that there are problems, maybe the representative, cumulative effect will have an impact. >> if you can, looking at that

reporting we get just in the last 24 hours, there was a lot that came out, a "washington post" report, then the report that was related to the disclosures coming from jared kushner and ivanka trump together, that was the other report we got in the last 24 hours, in the evening of a friday. what are you looking at when you see those two items coming out on a friday, if you will, dump? >> well, it's another part of the drip that we have seen in relationship to russia. you have so many people in and around this white house who have been subject this morning reports that have shown they may not have been as forthright as previously thought. in the case of attorney general sessions, the reporting that's coming from the post directly contradicts what he said in front of congress. >> under oath. >> under oath. so this is very serious consequences. but i would say that in the

cumulative effect of all this, we continue to see a drip. that makes me think that we never know what's coming around the corner. >> lynn, those who would be critical of this reporting would say, what about the sourcing, current and former officials, what that might mean, the reporters that authored this from "the washington post" have solid reputations of getting it right. >> right. you have to weigh who wrote it. all three of them have excellent reputations. here's the thing. the stories about russia that hold up, and the reporters, and if you want to be a do it yourself evaluator, who you like to deal with, blind sourcing, people who actually work covering national security, develop sources who will only talk to you if you protect them. and a paper like "the post" that has invested a lot in having reporters that work the beat, get these kinds of stories. you can more often than not trust them, if they are people who you see and follow, who are

deep in that world. i want to say this quickly, one-time national security, a very top person, said they only want to deal with reporters who they know. these are very hard beats to break into. and that's why actually so many of these stories are being broken by a relatively small group of reporters. >> small group of reporters but also groups of reporters that are consistently working together to pull together sourcing. >> together but for the same organization. >> yes. >> we're not doing -- it's competitive. >> right, i'm alluding this article we're talking about. >> yes. >> the three reporters on this have worked together on several major reports that you have looked at and i have looked at and others to get it right. astead, the question that comes from this report is also what's next. is the president, is the white house looking at issues that may consider pardoning either

himself and/or those involved, which could be in his inner circle, which could include his family as well? when you add that into the reporting, it looks to be a white house, as some have said, that is feeling a little bit of heat. >> the tweets this morning, there were several on a lot of different topics, but i think that first clause when the president said, we all know that the president has the power to pardon, that was the interesting one, because that means that we are seeing him tacitly confirm some of the reporting that says that they are looking at that, that he's thinking those things. make no mistake, a president pardoning people in the middle of an investigation of this kind would put us in uncharted territories, a constitutional crisis. >> and the first time we're

seeing he actually used that word "pardon" since the reporting on it. >> right. what we have seen previously from the administration has been to deny any links, to deny the truth of these reports. and we have seen them now evolve and saying, from "what is collusion" to defending possible ties and saying that, you know, maybe it's not that big of a deal. so we've seen an evolution on the white house of the defense coming from the russia investigation, coming from the reports, from the media. and we have also seen them starting to use that "p" word, pardon. >> thank you both, i appreciate it, lynn sweet, astead herndon, so much to be said. we'll see what happens for the question of constitutionality when it comes to pardoning himself. thank you both. democrats are making a push to win a senate seat in the deep red south. next we're going to alabama where attorney general jeff sessions' old seat is up for grabs. the president has talked about bringing back manufacturing jobs.

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welcome back. alabama has not been in play for democrats for many years, with republicans controlling all statewide positions. but the democratic party now things it has a chance to get back in the game there. seven candidates and counting are looking to take jeff sessions' open seat in the senate. nbc's tammy leitner is in alabama for us with a special guest, hey there, tammy. >> reporter: hey, richard. i am here with lily ledbetter who for ten years fought to close the pay gap for men and women which led to the fair pay act which was named after you. tell me why you're here today.

>> because this is a democratic rally in alabama, getting the enthusiasm up, to get democrats voted into congress in washington. >> reporter: you say that alabama is one of the worst states for equal rights for women. what can be done about that? >> we need to get more bills and laws passed that will help women to get their rights and to protect them, because this state and mississippi, the women have no rights, no protection, none whatsoever, that the other states at least have some. so we've got to get some people in washington to make these changes to help us to get this done. and we -- on equal pay, we still don't have equal pay. we have the bill but we don't get the money. >> reporter: speaking of washington, you told me you recently reached out to the white house, you're hoping to have a meeting with ivanka trump. what is that about? >> i want to go talk with her about women, their benefits, their equal pay, and show her just exactly how far this reaches into a family's life.

to make someone in her position understand, show her on paper what it's like for a woman who is not paid and compensated equally to her counterparts. it's devastating to an american family. the children don't get the food, education, and all the benefits from having that. >> reporter: and you've seen all of that firsthand. you've lived in alabama your entire life, been a lifelong democrat. you've watched this party. what's happened to the party in alabama? >> some of the rights that came along, lgbt and some of the abortion rights, that law was passed, we've had roe versus wade for years and years, and that was just to protect women to allow them to be able to take care of their health if they needed to, and to make a decision. but i think those two factors and some others has caused people in the south, and this is the bible belt of the south, and

they're so hard, strict, with their rules, that they wouldn't cross over, because they thought that was voting for something that was really wrong and went against the bible. and they shouldn't think that way, because if every law is observed and adhered to according to the way it's put, it would be all right. >> thanks for joining us. things are ready to get under way here. they're ten minutes out. they're expecting 200 people from five local counties. they're hoping to light a fire under the democratic party here. >> tammy, both sides are watching the energy there very carefully. we'll check back with you in the next hour to hear what's been said so far. thank you. president trump continues his push to boost the american manufacturing sector, signing an executive order yesterday authorizing an effort to try to

help the security of the nation. on monday the president donned a white stetson hat, posed in a fire truck, for the administration's made in america week which focused on products manufactured in the u.s. the white house says 41,000 manufacturing jobs have been added since trump took office. but a number of manufacturing companies that trump has championed has gone on to layoff workers, or go to offshore jobs, or both, including carrier, harley-davidson, ford, and boeing, some just this week. msnbc contributor ron insana, can you turn around or get a big spike in american jobs by focusing on manufacturing, the president caring about an important part of our economy? >> richard, this has been a sector of the economy that's been hollowed out over 40 years. it peaked, because of trade policy, a lack of vision in

american management in the 1970s, missing the foreign competition coming to our shores, a whole host of reasons why manufacturing was eventually outsourced or offshored. it will take some time to reinvigorate that sector. there are policies that can promote manufacturing. the biggest of which, the cost of energy has come down so much, even overseas manufacturers are finding the u.s. a much more competitive place in which to make things. it's almost happening to an extent on its own, not in the manner we saw 30, 40 years ago, but manufacturing is going through a bit of a renaissance in certain areas. >> i had my first job out of college for a manufacturer, a small, small business here in california. manufacturing is not spiking in california. there are still some states, though, doing an analysis of where some states are doing well, minnesota, indiana, and i shouldn't overstate that, this is over the course of 12 years, up 1.5% of their gdp. are there states where manufacturing is good for their

economy, others no? >> yes. it depends on, if you look at california, it's composed of interesting different industries. agriculture is a huge part of the economy, defense and aerospace a huge part of the economy, finance, a whole host of industries. most states can benefit from, i would say at this point, advanced manufacturing. basic manufacturing is going to be done by robots. that's something that the president nor anyone else can control. we're going in that direction where artificial intelligence, machine learning is creating a whole different environment in the manufacturing sector. what we want to do is create value-added jobs that pay well. on the one hand, we have a shortage of welders, a shortage of construction workers, pretty good paying jobs. >> that's a really good point. we've seen over the first parts of the year, the first half of the year, we've seen an increase, except for one month, in manufacturing jobs. are these in middle skilled areas? that's what you're alluding to, it's no longer low or high, it's

a middle skilled area where a lot of the energy needs to be focused on in this country. >> it's interesting that you use the word "energy," because a lot of the jobs come from a rebound in oil surprises, fracking picking up again in texas, where there's a lot of fracking going on. that comes under the heading of mining, when you look at the labor department statistics on employment. mining jobs are going up. it's not necessarily as much coal as it is fracking and energy production. so we're seeing an increase there. the president is in favor of that. that's happening largely because of an increase in oil prices from early 2016, they've doubled. the cost of production has come down. we're seeing energy manufacturing or energy production in the united states, up near the levels we last saw in 2014, which is near peak. >> we're the second largest manufacturer in the world. >> still. >> how important is it to our economy, one to ten? >> listen, i happen to think it's very important. i think to the extent that we stay on the forefront of advanced manufacturing, that's

where the value is added. that's where the high pay is. >> you didn't give me a number. but that's okay. >> i'll give it an 8. >> thank you, ron, a good friend and an msnbc contributor. thank you, ron, as always. coming up, keir simmons sits down with russian foreign minister lavrov. stick around. a ♪ this is a story about mail and packages. and it's also a story about people. people who rely on us every day to deliver their dreams

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♪ and every room has its own chapter ♪ you've carried on your family's tradition. let us help you prepare for your family's future. financial guidance while you're mastering life. from chase. so you can. welcome back. i'm richard lui in new york city. here are some of the stories we're watching for you here on msnbc. white house press secretary sean spicer resigned after president trump put anthony scaramucci in charge of his communication team. spicer said in an interview on fox news last night the president did not want him to go but he felt the president should start with a fresh slate. today the president was in virginia to attend the commissioning ceremony for the "uss gerald r. ford." this comes after his early morning tweet, shall we say, storm where he criticized attorney general jeff sessions for not going after hillary

clinton. senato senator john mccain is in good spirits following his brain cancer diagnosis. this week his daughter megan tweeted this photo a short time ago with the two of them sitting on a bench after a hike. she thanked everybody for well wishes for her dad. our keir simmons sat down for a one on one interview with russian foreign minister sergei lavrov on some of the major points of contention between the u.s. and russia. keir joins us from moscow with the latest. keir, good morning to you. >> reporter: good afternoon to you, richard. a number of blunt messages from the russian foreign minister on geopolitical issues around the world, some of the most difficult and intense regions in the world. on north korea, lavrov saying clearly that russia does not believe that the u.s. should intervene militarily in north korea and that it should not look to remove north korea's

eccentric leader kim jong un. >> we do not believe in regime change anywhere. i hear they enthusiastic voices in the united states, including some parts of this administration, that the patience has been over, and they must do something because the threat is growing and growing, the intercontinental ballistic missile was launched. but a month ago, i think, a month and a half, maybe, secretary mattis, answering the question, bluntly stated that the use of force against north korean regime would be a disaster, humanitarian disaster in the region. >> reporter: tough words too for washington from sergei lavrov on syria, where there is a piece deal, of course, that was agreed by the u.s. and russia that does appear to be holding for now, at least. but sergei lavrov suggesting that at some stage, america

should withdraw its forces from syria, saying they are illegitimately there, because they don't have the support of president assad. take a listen to that. >> after the country has been liberated, the presence of the foreign troops, foreign bases, on the soil of syria would be only legitimate with the consent of the syrians themselves. >> reporter: to be clear, the only forces that are allowed to intervene in syria would be only those sanctioned by president assad, suggesting only russia and hezbollah. >> strictly speaking, yes. >> reporter: lavrov saying america is right to be in syria as long as the fight against isis continues but not after that. clearly america's allies would not agree with that, richard. >> keir, thank you so much, nbc's keir simmons with that exclusive interview. we'll have more of that in the

next hour. joining us, twhat's your sense, molly? in foreign affairs, is russia taking a more aggressive, more comfortable stance because of this u.s. administration's embrace of russia? are they being a little bit more forward? >> i think what we see from russia right now is actually very interesting, because they're pushing forward so clearly, partially to test the trump administration, partially to show they're in control of this relationship. they don't want it to be a friendly reconciliation oriented dynamic. at home it's certainly important for them to project they have this great power status, this advancing status over the trump administration. so you see them toeing the line. this is exactly the same behavior the russians exhibited all through the obama administration. essentially you have putin, who is not that much of a risk taker, he is when he thinks

there are great rewards, but primarily as moving into the open space left for him as there has been a change in the strategic assessment of the united states over where its interests lie. this is russia saying, no, this is ours, the middle east is ours. it's a new dynamic for sure. >> molly, that part, i think you're alluding to the part in this excerpt from the interview where he alludes to iran, russia, and the terrorist group hezbollah, having the sole, if you will, right to intervene in the syrian civil war after this current situation or current time frame. >> absolutely. this is something i've written about a lot as have others, this idea that we can work with russia against terrorism anywhere, but specifically in syria, is completely nuts. i mean, the russian ground forces in their war in syria, for the most part it's iranian medical-ish shahs, hezbollah, hamas, other recruited terrorist

forces, basically a coalition of terrorists fighting a war in syria to protect assad's interests backed by russian air power. this is not a dynamic we can play with. this is a statement from russia, since they intervened in syria in 2012, saying this is ours, we have military basis in the eastern mediterranean and we're not going to give them up. >> he's saying they're not in favor of regime change. yet russia has been crucial, especially in the security council, to measures that have died there in the security council that were against north korea. would you see, based on the commentary there, a shift at all in russia's, if you will, veto of what the united states and other asian allies would like to accomplish in north korea? >> it's interesting, i mean, russia plays a lot more of a role in north korea than i think anybody is aware. they have certainly been contributing on the missile technology side and are not unsupportive of the kim regime

in a number of ways. >> the black market proliferation of nuclear technology. >> absolutely. on missiles specifically, also on the nuclear side, via iran, back to north korea. but there has been a big role there. russia is aware of what's going on. they've moved a lot of forces not only to their western border toward europe, but there's more forces that have been deployed to the far east as well. there's aware there are tensions, they're aware this will be a pressure point. again, this is another place where russia is going to oppose u.s. interests very clearly. this is the dynamic they have set up all over the world. >> thank you so much for your perspective, one of those rare interviews from the foreign ministers with western media. molly mckew, thank you. next, what's next for the infamous former football star? ♪

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811 is available to any business our or homeownerfe. to make sure that you identify where your utilities are if you are gonna do any kind of excavation no matter how small or large before you dig, call 811. keep yourself safe. later this year, o.j. simpson will be released from a nevada panel. a four-member panel agreed to

release him as early as october 1st. books, television experience, and mini series have depicted his 1995 double murder trial and acquittals for the deaths of his ex-wife and ron goldman. joining me is legal analyst and former prosecutor, paul butler. paul, what put simpson at risk for violating parole when he is released in october? >> we'll have to look at what conditions are set by the florida parole office. typically it's items like, you can't hang out or have friends who have committed felonies. he'll be subject to random searches. it depends on what the office thinks is appropriate. we have to remember, richard, he's actually considered low

risk. he's 70 years old. he had a very good record in prison. but often, whatever the conditions are, folks who are subject to them find them quite difficult. as many people end up getting locked up for parole violations as they do for the original offense. >> ron goldman's family, they were very disappointed in their statements of his release here. and they also said they were surprised about the way o.j. simpson had at least given his commentary in his testimony, if you will, during the parole hearing, that he was not, if you will, apologizing, instead it was classic o.j. simpson. >> well, it did seem like he kind of veered off script. typically at one of these hearings, the person acknowledges responsibility for the crime that they were charged with, and they express contrition. at times simpson did seem rather

defiant, in some other ways it seemed like he wanted to go back and retry the case. nonetheless, nevada uses this instrument we lawyers call it, basically like a checklist. from that, the parole officers figure out whether someone is, again, likely to be at risk. if they're not likely to cause harm when they're on the outside, they're supposed to be granted parole. >> how does he get monitored? >> so he'll be monitored by someone who is based in florida, if in fact he's allowed to return there. that's usually best for returning citizens because they have better outcomes of their with their family. and of course simpson's relatives live in florida. he'll be assigned to an officer, he'll have to report to that officer. it won't be as draconian as for some inmates who have to check in every day. >> does his parole limit him from profiting, writing a book, reality show, what have you?

if any profits come from that, does that have to go towards the civil judgments? >> $33 million, richard, is how much he owes the goldman and former wife's family. so his pension is protected. that's quite a lot of money, $5 million just from his movie acting pension. he's got another pension from the nfl and is entitled to social security now that he's a returning citizen. florida law actually gives him even more protection, it protects him if he sells his house. if he sells member i can't beor goes to the victims. otherwise, he gets to keep it. >> thank you, paul butler. don't miss our documentary, "chasing freedom," chief legal correspondent ari melber offers

an in-depth examination of simpson's life. watch "o.j. simpson: chasing freedom," tonight at 10:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. upcoming, more outcry in minnesota after yet another deadly police shooting. the city's police chief resigned after the city's mayor says she lost confidence in the former chief's ability to lead the police department. we'll go to minneapolis for the latest. [radio alarm]

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thanks for sticking around. imagine waking up one morning and finding out your student loan debt has been wiped clean. that dream could soon be a reality for tens of thousands of former college students, private student loans may be forgiven because of a paperwork snafu. at least $5 billion worth of private student loans are in dispute. creditors have brought more than 800 lawsuits this year against borrowers but it is up to the lenders to prove the defaulting loans and because of missing paperwork borrowers are off the hook. and from the final personal finance company make lemonade, zack freeman. they have to prove that the borrowers and they own the debt. why is it all being erased then?

>> that is a great question. asa mentioned, student collection in several state and local courts, national collegiate, they have to prove chain of title and ownership. they didn't originate and they purchased the loans from banks that issued the loans about ten years ago before the financial crisis. credit standards were looser and now they've defaulted and now they have the own us to prove ownership and chain of title, but they lost the documents. >> is that okay, is the debt still there. >> it is still there and it is up to judges to decide who owns the loans. it would be fraudulent for a debt collector to collect on them when they don't own them so it is an interesting development to see how judges decide. >> this comes to light because we're seeing more loans defaulting from former students, which is the bigger problem,

right. the piece of the big enchilada here. >> that is right. we have a about $1.4 trillion crisis. >> so this is a drop in the bucket. >> it is a high headline number but it is a large amount. we have $1.4 trillion in federal and private loans. 44 million borrowers in the u.s. and student debt is the second highest consumer debt category. >> doing the math on the screen, you have a 11% default and you have $31 billion in amounts here. >> and the financial crisis was north of 20% and now they are 10% and it is a massive issue and they are right behind mortgages now. >> you could take options with the refinancing options for example. but it will be up to washington to make better policy for student loan relief.

>> zack freedman. thank you. it is something we are watching because it effects so many young people across the country. that does it for this hour on msnbc, stay with us. much more on the fallout as the president shakes up his communications team. will there be more? and we're diving into the latest on the russia investigation and the health care battle as republicans try to pick up the pieces after the latest setback over the last week. all of that and more straight ahead. stick around. mom, i have to tell you something. dad, one second i was driving and then the next... they just didn't stop and then... i'm really sorry. i wrecked the subaru. i wrecked it. you're ok. that's all that matters. (vo) a lifetime commitment to getting them home safely. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru.

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and welcome back. i'm richard lui at msnbc headquarters in new york city. next week it is a new communications team for the white house but they are fending off old problems. the president who can't stay and anthony scary muia muchy will d with it. sean spicer said it was for the

best. >> he wanted to bring new folks in to help rev up the communications operation and after reflection, my decision was to recommend to the president that i give anthony and sarah a clean slate to start from, so they can talk about the president's agenda and help move it forward. >> but white house watchers say spicer may only be the first to fall. chief of staff reince priebus and steve bannon were not happy with the scaramucci hiring and may be outs with the president. jeff sessions is under heat as well. the president telling "the new york times" on thursday he never would have nominated him if he knew he would recuse himself from the russia investigation. then trump took a shot at session again just today. questioning why sessions is not investigating hillary clinton. kelly o'donnell joins us live at the white house, and kelly, as we're watching all of this happen at the white house, what do we know about what might be next? >> well, we have long heard rumors of