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hi, everybody, i'm thomas roberts. welcome back to msnbc. coming up this hour, tying the president's hands. congress reaching a deal on russian sanctions that may keep donald trump from making any kind of deal for plaunt. but will the president sign on to it? really depends on who you ask at the white house. crossing a line. president issuing a warning to special counsel roll mubert mue don't look into my finances. what is it really all about? is it all about donald trump's never-released tax returns? we'll tell you about the new democratic slogan and why so many are saying is that really all you got? > the house and senate agreed saturday to a sweeping

bipartisan sanctions package on russia for meddling in the u.s. election for 2016. this floor could be on the floor by tuesday and the president's desk before the august recess. the question facing president trump is will he sign it. remember, the president has consistently downplayed russian hacking or interference in the election and reportedly was pressuring congress last month to water down sanctions. his new communications team hit the morning shows today but got off to a rocky start giving mixed messages on whether he'll sign sanctions bill or not. new press secretary sarah huckabee sanders says it has the president's support. >> the administration is supportive of being tough on russia, particularly in putting these sanctions in place. we support where the legislation is now. >> but new communications director anthony scaramucci didn't sound so sure. >> he hasn't made the decision yet to sign that bill one way or the other. so when he makes that decision, i will 100% side with him because i'm his communications director and i'm his advocate. >> so the white house responded

to nbc's kelly o'donnell afterwards telling her that these were not mixed messages and that, quote, both answers are correct. officials say the bill is headed in the right direction for the president's support but that a final decision has not been made. now either way, the russia sanctions package could be on the president's desk at the same time his close circle of aides and loved ones are being questioned in the russia investigation. his son-in-law, jared kushner, will testify behind closed doors to the house and senate intel committees monday and tuesday. then trump's son, donald junior, and former campaign manager paul manafort will be interviewed by the senate intel committee staff. we don't know the exact dates of those but they will be answering questions and providing documents over about this july 9th meeting last year with five kremlin-linked operatives who promised dirt on hillary clinton but then switched to rallying against the magnitsky act, sanctions imposed by president obama. joining me now is someone who had a key rolling in those sanctions and has locked horns with some of those russian

players involved in that meeting, william browder, it is great do have you with me. as we think about how much has kind of been unearthed just this month about what happened a year ago, and the talk of the magnitsky act, would it surprise you if your name came up in that meeting? >> i'm quite certain that my name did come up in the meeting. in fact, natalia veselnitskaya, the russian lawyer who was present there, has gone on various television stations to say that she had made -- provided various documents about me and magnitsky in that meeting. and so i'm quite sure that i was one of the subjects of that conversation. >> bill, why do you think that you would become such a nemesis to veselnitskaya, to vladimir putin, the kremlin as a whole? >> well, it's pretty simple. so my lawyer, sergei magnitsky,

was murdered in 2009 after uncovering a $230 million government corruption scheme. putin was a beneficiary of that scheme. i then lobbied very hard to get sanctions in place in the united states which ended up in the magnitsky act in 2012. what that means is that putin, who is an extremely rich man. i would estimate he's got a net worth of $200 billion. that he keeps mostly offshore. that means his money is potentially at risk of being sanctioned and frozen under the magnitsky act. it's become one of his most personal and important priorities to get the magnitsky act repealed. he's been doing various things against me and against the magnitsky act in that process. and one of those things was this natalia veselnitskaya approach to donald trump jr. >> do you think that from what we understand about the way that those e-mailstranspired, rob

go goldstone, do you think that this was something all directed straight from the top by vladimir putin? or do you think that it was something else entirely? >> no, this is absolutely directed straight from the top. we know for sure that the general prosecutor of russia who is the most important law enforcement official was intimately involved in this particular incident and in the planning of this communication, and he is the closest associate of vladimir putin. this is yuri chika, the general prosecutor of russia. it is nonsense to say this was an independent lawyer who wanted to have a discussion on this issue. this was directed at the highest level from the kremlin because there is something vladimir putin cares very deeply and personally about.

>> bill, when we think about the individuals affected, the magnitsky act going into effect, something you lobbied for in 2012. i believe it was firmly put in place by 2013, putin's name doesn't appear on it. why would he be so concerned about that type of money that you describe and he wouldn't be able to invest his money elsewhere? >> well, what you have to understand is that putin is not keeping any money in his own name. the money that he's keeping is in the name of other people, of oligarch trustees. what putin's afraid of is that when all the dots are connected those people's assets will be frozen and effectively his money will be frozen via these trustees. so it's not what's been frozen so far, it's what could be frozen. putin has effectively over the last 17 years accumulated all this money by committing absolutely terrible crimes. and he's done all these terrible things in the hopes that he can then enjoy the money in the

future. if all of a sudden there is a consequence to what he's done, that puts the whole modus operandi of the regime in question. >> do you think the agalarov are key players or truly just a bridge, a connection from put t in to trump? >> we know the agalarovs have a connection back to the miss universe pageant. i'm sure moscow, the secret police, found a way to get to trump and they found a clear connection. that's how this all connects to this major putin project. >> bill browder been thank you for your insight. i look forward to talking to you in the future as we know this is not a story going away any time soon. thank you, sir. >> thank you. joining me now, a journalist specializing in russian and ukrainian culture and politics. erin mcpike, chief white house correspondent at "account

independent journal" and charlie sykes, also an msnbc contributor. charlie, right out of the gate beginning with the investigation hitting the president's inner circle and the fact that scaramucci said that pardons did come up. how serious do you think the president is educating himself on what would be fair game to clear those closest to him? >> obviously this has hit the sweet spot now that he's talking about two things. he's doing two things. the attacks on robert mueller, the suggestion that he might actually fire robert mueller. certainly in conservative media. then the fact, the admission that he is talking about pardons. look, this didn't happen until obviously somebody said, look, they're going after the money, they are following the money, they may -- robert mueller is going to be getting your income tax returns. and then suddenly the president begins talking about doing things that would have been unthinkable even for this president a week ago. >> erin, when we think about the

shake-up we had at the end of the week with sean spicer out, sarah huckabee sanders in as press secretary, and anthony scaramucci making the rounds, in this similar spot of what sean spicer was in having to clear up sort of issues of the president's tweets. take a listen. >> to pardon anybody because the russia thing is a nonsensical thing. i was there early on in the campaign. i didn't have any interactivity with russians. i didn't see anybody have any interactivity with russians. it is a complete bogus and nonsensical thing. this is a thing that happens in washington and -- >> erin, do you think scaramucci is going to get out of the gate and do a better job of having a constructive hold around the russia narrative and the issues pertaining to the robert mueller investigation and this week especially with manafort, don junior and jared kushner going behind closed doors to take

questions? >> i don't know if he's going to have a stronger narrative. i think it is pretty slippery slope, kind of a messy thing. and just because he didn't see it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. i do think, by and large, scaramucci is going to have more of a runway to get across a kind of message that he wants because donald trump simply trusts him more so i think he's going to be able to do a little bit more than sean spicer did. he seems to be more comfortable in his skin, so he'll get out there and say what he wants to say. i don't think anyone can clear up for this white house some of the mess they've created over this russia investigation. >> and scaramucci comes on at a time when "snl" is on hiatus. that's a good thing for him but come september he's going to be on there so he doesn't really have the same shot as sean spicer coming out of the gate, especially being called on the carpet from lying from the white house podium. when we think about the issue of

sanctions and if donald trump were to ignore what congress does in terms of this imposing russian sanctions, keeping them in place. if you were to veto something like that, how would that affect american/russian relations? >> well, i think it would provoke wide strspread outrage, first of all, that he's dropping the sanctions especially when he's under such a cloud of suspicion, so many people are accusing him of colluding with the russians in some way. if he were to sort of go out of his way to defy congress and eliminate the sanctions that would certainly make it look like there was more -- >> from the presidential point of view he thinks it is good to be friends with russia. what is the benefit for america to have a better role, say friendship with russia? >> one is a much better reduced risk of war. i mean it is easy to get very worked up in the media about

questionable contacts, but it is important to remember also that although russia is not the most powerful state in the world, it is not necessarily even a super power anymore, it still does have nuclear weapons and there are a lot off about whether it is a good idea to sort of work ourselves into a frenzy, especially before we had a full investigation, before evidence has been openly presented. i think there is a strong rationale for remaining cautious about that. >> the paranoia is truly -- it has set in. right? because everybody thinks that there's got to be something going on. why would they act so suspicious about this? but for russia this is kind of a win-win in all ways. especially if they do consider the trump team currently an asset. do they become a depreciating asset the more that we look into this, the more that congress looks into it, the more the free press looks into it and bob mueller especially? >> well, i think the thing to remember is that russia is not

that strong, as i said. and having this type of pr is tremendously good for them, especially domestically. putin's team so powerful, lot of americans now are convinced that he's sort of this super villain, this omnipotent figure, which he isn't. but it is good for his popularity. >> charlie, does trump and his team become a depreciating asset if that's the way russia considers him to be right now if, one, sanctions aren't lifted? and, two, this investigation goes deeper to expose something more nefarious than we've already seen in don junior's e-mails? >> yes. i mean obviously there is that real risk. of course i think that putin though is probably pretty happy about the investment that he's made in eroding americans' confidence in our electoral process. when they got involved i think in the campaign, they wanted to hurt hillary clinton. i don't think they expected that donald trump would be elected.

but they wanted to sow this doubt and distrust into our process. and in that respect, vladimir putin's return on investment is really extraordinary. he can't be be terribly unhappy about the kinds of the divisions, the kind of -- the kind of paranoia that all this has caused. >> are we extremely naive to think that it was really just podesta and the dnc that got hacked where we had 17 republicans, we had three different campaign managers for donald trump? wouldn't russia in a hacking and phishing expedition trying to get up as much information as they could, and it would be silly to think podesta and the dnc were the only ones compromised. >> yeah. don't forget, they tried to initially hack into a number of republican entities. marco rubio himself said that his e-mail -- they at least

tried to hack his e-mail. it is naive to think it was just podesta and the dnc because have you these republicans saying it. i don't know why it is that this trump white house can't really accept the fact that obviously the russians have all these spy something activities and phishing expeditions, and the like. >> and, by the way, so do we. we are in the game of secrets in the world. if everybody's being honest, yes, it is a game of secrets. >> thomas, one other point that i think is important to make is that, yes, donald trump was captured talking to vladimir putin and there's been an uproar over that. one of the things to consider in all of this is the united states still has to do some russia policy. it is a big power, whether it is declining or not, or coming back, or what have you. they do have nuclear weapons. and just like the united states, are interested in nuclear

nonproliferation from other countries. so there is still a lot of work that the u.s. has to do with russia, and everybody should keep that in mind. >> great to have you all on here. i appreciate all of your time. breaking news to cover coming up in texas. this is where nine migrants have been killed after being found in the back of a tractor-trailer in san antonio. we've got the very latest from the scene, what authorities are saying now and the rising number of folks who were crammed into the back of that truck after this. when i first started working with capital one, my dad called them up and asked for "the jennifer garner card" which is such a dad thing to do. after he gave his name the woman from capital one said "mr. garner, are you related to jennifer?" kind of joking with him. and my dad was so proud to tell her, "as a matter of fact, she is my middle daughter". so now dad has the venture card, he's earning his double miles, and he made a friend at the company. can i say it? go ahead! what's in your wallet? nice job dad.

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welcome back, everybody. breaking news on the story from texas now with the death toll now standing at nine in what police are describing as an immigrant smuggling operation gone wrong. eight of the victims were found dead inside a sweltering tractor-trailer packed with dozens of people at a san antonio walmart. now a spokesman for the u.s. immigration and customs enforce many service says one more person has died in the hospital. 30 others are having to be treated for heat related issues.

charges against the driver are expected tomorrow. nbc's mia rodriguez has more for us. >> reporter: thomas, a shocking discovery in the parking lot of this walmart. all of this coming to light after someone in the tractor-trailer, came out, flagged down an employee from wall part and asked them for water. the employee did give them water, but then called police. when police arrived they found all of those people inside the tractor-trailer. you can imagine, it was hot. this is south texas in the summer. it was 101 degrees yesterday here in san antonio. it was into the 90s in the evening. here's what the fire chief had to say about the condition of the people inside of that trailer. take a listen. >> the air conditioning was not working. paramedics and firefighters found that each one of them had heart rates over about 130 beats per minute which, again, they were very hot to the touch. so these people were in that trailer without any signs of any type of water so you are looking at a lot of heat stroke, lot of

dehydration. >> reporter: we are also getting reaction from area leaders on what happened here. u.s. attorney for the western district of texas, richard durbin jr. saying in a statement, all were victims of ruthless human smugglers indifferent to the well being of their fragile cargo. the south texas heat is punishing at this time of year. these people were helpless in the hands of their transporters. we're hearing from congressman joaquin castro who represents this area saying, "these deaths are tragic and avoidable a abla" going ton on to say the people responsible should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, meantime, police have taken into custody the driver of this tractor-trailer. it was a similar instance to human smuggling that we've seen here back in 2003 in victoria, texas. in that particular case 19 people died because they were trapped inside of a very hot tractor-trailer. thomas? >> nbc's maya rodriguez

reporting from san antonio. coming up for you, a better deal. that's been the subject of mocking in recent days. but it's part -- that video i think is incorrect. that's from the scene in san antonio. but we want to talk about the slogan that democrats have been prepping to roll out all in a way they hope is going to catch your attention and move their agenda forward. but they've been getting mocked online. and social media is never nice, is it? but it's really been mean. back in a moment. at planters, we put fresh roasted flavor into every can,

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i should be on a grand scale. >> it is a grand scale. >> we live a global economy. >> i'm reminded of that ad, where's the beef. >> you need to decide what kind of company you want to be. >> i'm not telling you to listen to anyone but there is a very fresh approach. >> we just have to have the leadership to get the job done. >> the first thing you have to do, marty, is win. >> i've come up with a marvelous new campaign. >> you got to make that real. all right, so we know slogans and advertising can be the cornerstone of american culture, especially in politics. tomorrow the democratic party's expected to officially unveil a rebranding of its agenda.

fdr had the new deal. harry truman had the fair deal. today's democrats have a better deal. and the full title is a better deal, better jobs, better wages, better future. senate minority leader chuck schumer says when you lose to someone who has 40% popularity, you don't blame other things, comey, russia, you blame yourse yourself. what did we do wrong? people didn't know what we stood for, just don't like trump. howard dean, erin mcpike, charlie sykes. governor dean, your reaction to the rebranding for the democratic party? do you think it is a winning slogan. >> i have no idea if it is a winning slogan but i think the rebrand something important. look, the election in 2008 is going to be decided on donald trump and whether they like him or not. but the democrats have got to have a positive message and a

positive agenda for what we do. so this is a start. do i think it is the best slogan i ever heard? no. but it is a start and i'm really glad to see the leadership starting to have a positive agenda that talks about what they would do instead of donald trump, rather than how donald trump is which everybody in the country believes anyway except for his core supporters. >> i liked that man taj ontage together, but erin, what are you hearing from your sources? both republicans and daemocrats. republicans would all agree democrats need new messaging, but do they feel confident this is the angle that will hook people back in yet? >> first, i don't think republicans are focused on this at all. they have enough to worry about right now. my democratic sources throughout washington are trying to actually get a little bit more from the dnc about what it is they should be saying when they go on msnbc, when they go on fox news and they're not hearing

enough from the dnc just yet. but the thing i would say about this is, this is just a word game. the democratic party actually has a number of successes from some of its mayors, from some of its governors. even things in the obama administration that the department of labor did that the party actually could be pointing to and talking to. i can tell you there are a number of workforce retraining programs that actually helped to lower the unemployment rate. they could actually point to those numbers. and you're not hearing the democratic party really show those successes. and that is more important than saying, we stand for -- higher wages and affordable college and infrastructure spending. frankly, i do think that most americans know that the democratic party stands for that. >> we were all there. we think about this in the beginning of 2013 when the rnc put out its autopsy and how reince priebus who was the chair of the rnc was talking about all the different things that they were going to do. charlie, trump was the

antithesis of that, in winning in 2016. does the dnc need to do some type of autopsy, figure out the plan, and then do the exact opposite of that plan to win? >> well, that is a plan. it work out for the republicans, i guess. look, democrats have to do better than ripping off a papa john slogan here. but governor dean is absolutely right. 2018 election is going to be a referendum on trump and trumpism and what the republicans do or don't do. but what the democrats really need besides a new slogan is they need some new fresh faces. you have a lot of americans who look at the democratic party now as a party of income redistribution but has not actually helped their incomes grow. look as it as a party of identity politics that leaves them out of it. and somehow they need to change that dynamic. right now what we keep seeing, a lot of retreads. whatever you think about nancy pelosi, republicans are salivating at the process of

running against her in every single congressional election. you need something new. you need to change the narrative. you need to change the image. and this slogan is not going to get that done. >> governor, who would you say the fresh face is that charlie says democrats need? who are the ones to watch. >> there are a ton of them starting with kirsten gillibr d gillibrand. erica garcetti. kamala harris. sometimes jason cantor is talking about running. i would love to support someone under 50 or 55 running for president. i think some criticisms of the messaging are true. but we're not going to be really effective messengers until we have a candidate, a single candidate, who can speak to the party, speak for the party, and that's not going to happen for another two and a half years. so that's one of the problems with the out party. i really do agree that we needed to be talking about the things we've already done. we now know the polling on

obamacare is much different. we probably should be bragging about bringing so many people health care and talking about the republicans trying to take it away. >> erin, are you hearing from any sources on the ill, especially when if comes to the president's current popularity as opposed to that of obamacare, which obama is currently higher. but how they can use that to win back house seats or any type of senate seats that are coming available in 2018? is this the moment, really, where they need to dig in and focus on the mid-terms? >> one of the things i have heard from a number of democratic strategists is that it would be a mistake not to go into the mid-terms saying how they could actually fix obamacare, not change it, not take it away, but actually improve upon it. and if they don't lay out a strategy on that, that would be a mistake. but i do want to point out something else. in terms of pointing to successes. i appreciate what governor dean was saying about some of those fresh faces. however, i do think that someone like john hickenlooper -- i can tell you this. the white house is concerned about john hickenlooper and a number of republican governors are looking to the model that he

has in colorado. obviously he's had a couple of things in his favor in terms of the economy in that state. but republicans are concerned about him for many of the things he's done because he has had so many successes. >> chris murphy is another one. you're going to get 15 people that are more than well qualified running for the united states. cory booker wants to run, i think. >> donald trump winning has pafrd t paved the way for snooki to run for president. >> or howard schultz or mark zuckerberg are being talked about. one thing we can say about trump is he's broken the rules of who can run. i think you'll see that reflected in the democratic primary. >> we will continue to watch as all of this advances, because it is a whole new world. it is great to have you all with me. stay with me. coming up, trump's finances. the president saying in an interview this week his family finances is a red line for robert mueller.

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185 days. yes, that is donald trump's tenure so far. just a little past six months as president of the united states. still no full accounting of his tax returns. no full accounting for conflicts of interest based on his past business dealings. but that could all change because of that man you see right there. special counsel robert mueller. trump told "the new york times" this week that it would really be a red line for muller to cross if he investigated his own finances or the finances of his family. swift on the heels of that report came another from the "washington post," this time about possible white house deliberations about presidential pardons over which trump claimed complete power to pardon that reportedly includes his own family, even himself. these stories only threw more gas on the fire lit by rumors that trump might fire muller much as he did fired fbi director james comey. democrats aren't the only ones

who would call that crazy. >> it sort of looks paranoid to me. and the fact is i know bob mueller for a long time. i worked in the justice department. he is a man of integrity, very highly respected in washington. when he was pick, very bipartisan support for this man. we need to let him do his job. wherever that may lead. i think if he fired bob mueller, i think he'd see a tremendous back losh responsibilities from democrats but also house democrats. >> become lash from both sides, democrats and republicans. it really could happen, especially as muller continues to dig in to his investigation. and it could lead to a final disclosure of donald trump's tax returns or at least add to a little bit that has dripped out over the last couple of years people have been looking for them. david kay johnson, richard

painter, chief white house ethics lawyer under george w. bush. and steffi pinkel. david, if i recall correctly how it came to you, what would bob mueller be looking for specifically in going through trump's tax records? >> well, donald trump has had dealings with the so-called red mafia, former russians who are criminals in new york, going back to 1983 and has been looked at repeatedly by law enforcement over those connections. more recently he's done several real estate deals that make no economic sense whatsoever as commercial transactions. make a lot of sense if you think that he was being bought. muller is of course going to dig into it the flow of money going to trump and trump businesses. back in may when muller was

appointed, i said that the way his charter was drawn, trump was going to complain that digging into his business was inappropriate. that's exactly what trump's done, but i think it is not only appropriate, it is absolutely central to muller fulfilling his duty. >> but, richard, what it comes to the finances of donald trump, he knew that -- whatever his business practices have been -- to be donald trump, might become exposed. why jeopardize that in running for the white house and eventually winning the oval office? >> well, i don't know why donald trump does a lot of the things he does. but i don't think that bob mueller can possibly conduct this investigation thoroughly without looking at the money trail. we already have a clear money trail between the russians and general flynn which of course wasn't disclosed. we also know that the trump family and the kushner family have been looking around for

money in all different pockets of the world for quite a long time. and president trump does have long-standing relations with the russians. there is no way you could investigate the trumps and the kushners without looking at the money. and of course he's going to do that. and the notion that he would get fired for doing that is absurd. he can't be fired for doing his job. if the president does that, it is going to cause a political crisis in this country that's really unparalleled. >> this is the moment though that the meet and greet that members of the "new york times" had with the president then turned into an on-the-record moment that caught everybody's attention. take a listen. >> muller was look being at your finances, your family's finances, unrelated to russia, is that a red line? >> would that it be a breach of what his actual charge is? >> i would say yeah, yeah. i would say yes. >> if he was outside that lane, would you think he would have to go. >> no, think that is a vail ligs. look, this is about russia.

>> what would you do is no. >> i can't answer that question because i don't think it is going to happen. >> if you have the president there saying it is about russia but it is also about ukraine. paul manafort had to register as a foreign agent retroactively because of the fact he was working for their interests during his time serving with the trump team. is this justs a easy as looking at the money trail for not just donald trump but also for paul manafort and ukrainian interests and how he was being paid? >> yeah. the question with paul manafort is interesting because it actually was admitted by the ukrainian government last month, i believe, that they don't actually have proof that he had been given the payments that were listed in the ledger that came out during the election. so it's not clear that that evidence is absolutely there. . course, he does have a lot of ties having been employed by various sort of post-soviet oligarch types. but i do think that in all of

these discussions about finance, it is important to remember that not all russian people -- especially not all post-soviet people. because there is a tendency to sort of assume that any post-soviet person is russian, which of course isn't true. some of them are caukrainian, uzbek, whatever. but not all post-soviet people are working directly for vladimir putin. the russian mafia, for example, it does seem extremely likely that trump was involved over the years with some kind of criminal activity having to do with money laundering, with corrupt real estate deals. but that doesn't necessarily mean that vladimir putin was pulling his strings. >> this is reporting that's been done by other ag sencies. nbc news has not reported on anything to do with donald trump's finances or evidence or accusations of money laundering. but whether it comes to what robert mueller could be looking at in all of this, that could be one of the issues that this trail takes you down. richard, as you know, with ken

starr, he started is out with white water and ended up with the blue dress. so where is the boundary for a mueller investigation when it comes to donald trump? or is there none? >> well, i think president trump stated correctly, it has to do with russia. but russia does a lot of its business with money, with rubles that are converted into dollars. russia has laundered some money through majors banks in the world. i won't mention any of their names here but some of those banks are banks that do business with donald trump. we need to follow the money. it concerns russia. no, we're not interested in whether the president has had sex with an intern. we're not going to play that game this time around. this is a serious investigation that needs to be conducted thoroughly. but there is no way that bob mueller can conduct the investigation without looking at the finances of the trump business empire, of the kushner business empire, and finding out whether there are financial ties

between those families and the russians or people working for the russians, and once again, that may include banks that are non-russian banks but where the russians do business and launder their money. bob mueller needs to go there. >> david, from the "new york times" today, columnist frank rooney wrote that kushner and the president likely straddle irreconcilable contradictions to get what they want. but in kushner's case, in ivanka trump's, too, that has been an especially perverse spectacle. he and she are the prince and princess of having it both ways. do you think that because of kushner having to show up this week to take questions, david, and also don junior and paul manafort, as well, that for donald trump this is going to get a little too hot, the fact that his family members are being so exposed and put in precarious legal positions that it might be a bridge too far. >> thomas, keep in mind for the moment they are testifying

behind closed doors. it is not going to be public. jared kushner, paul manafort, michael flynn are highly vulnerable to leverage by the prosecut prosecutor's office. jared kushner's almost certainly at some point going to be forced into a decision between his own skin and whether he's willing to risk going to prison or breaking with his father-in-law, which would involve lots of other problems, involving probably his marriage and his children. jared kushner i believe is the person to watch here most closely. paul manafort, while the ukrainian government has said, correctly, that they can't prove he got the money, the investigators are very good at tracing the money and if it was paid they'll be able to find it. you notice manafort has finally come in and registered as a foreign agent. >> then it is, what a wasted act, david. gosh golly, he shouldn't have registered because he didn't get paid. he made a real mistake there.

>> well, that can be used to strip him of assets so he has a tremendous incentive to cooperate with prosecutors if they've got the goods on him. >> we shall see how it all goes. this is a big week. david kay johnson. david painter. appreciate it. this the gop next week be forced to work with democrats to actually fix our health care system? we panel's going to weigh in. ♪

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♪ mom. ♪ ♪ where all the walls echo with laughter ♪ ♪ and every room has its own chapter ♪ you've carried on your family's tradition. let us help you prepare for your family's future. financial guidance while you're mastering life. from chase. so you can. if you are not going to repeal and replace obamacare then the third best thing is let it implode. if you let it implode, there will be enough big crisis, these

town washington responds better to crisis than with practical problems which we can do right now before the implosions. >> there we have the new white house's secretary, anthony scarramucci. i want the welcome back dean and charlie sykes. charlie, let me start with you on this one, something that mcconnell trying to get on the record. do you think he's making a mistake by moving towards the vote now? >> no, he has to show he's making an effort and everybody is seen less concerned of getting it right than getting it done. mcconnell does not want to be the fault guy for this. donald trump will be satisfied to see this thing fail and spend the next several years to blame democrats. there is an elaborate game being

played out here. we'll get the results later this week. >> it would be insane to see the democrats responsible for this, aaron. >> because, trump has the white house. mitch mcconnell in charge of the senate and we got paul ryan in charge of the house. they're going to own healthcare if they move on healthcare. >> yeah, i don't think trump's message is at all clear. one day he will say let obamacare implode and the next day he will go onto twitter and say mitch mcconnell you should do something and he's going back and forth on that just about everyday. look, i think he kind of got annoyed of fold in and this is not going to go anywhere. if this repeal vote goes down this week as expected, healthcare, they're going to do it again at some other point. i think in the trump error, we gotten bad at reading between the lines. he only said that to keep the

base in gauge because the bases is so mad they have not done anything. this is not going anywhere. i don't know how they're going to get anything done on replacing obamacare in the next year and a half. >> a song that love and know very well. is this the time for democrats to hold onto whatever they do instead of fold on healthcare? >> i don't think you are going to see democrats folding. this is becoming a disaster for trump and the republicans. there is only one republican that's looking good so far and that's susan collins. she's well stood clear and said she's going to vote no. she's in great shape. everyday this goes on hurts the republicans. i believe and i am the only person watching and likely the senate could be lost to the democrats in 2018 despite how awful the map is.

this is toxic. the most people in this country believe now that if this bill passes, they're going to lose their insurance. even if it does no pass, we'll run ads everyday and talking about the votes and strips hundreds of thousands of million of people from the health of their insurance. now, we got a 60% approval rate and republicans are of about 17% approval rate. they should shut up and talk something about tax reforms. rand paul had been stuck in concrete as well of what he wants. he was asked what it takes to go along of the actual procedure vote. >> the real question is what are we moving to and open to debate to? last week, senate leadership said it will be a clean bill of 2015. the 2015 that we all voted for is a good idea. the other alternative is the senate leadership bill that does

not repeal obamacare and is loaded with pork. it is a pork vest of billions of dollars in to pet projects for individual senators. i am not for that. >> is this what it is, charlie, getting the stripped down version or getting senators, giving them some candy basically to get them on board and get their votes. >> yeah, there is been a lot of slush funds and politics going on. aaron is right, this is not going anywhere. a lot of republicans agree with howard deen that they would like to shut up of healthcare and moven that they would like to shut up of healthcare and moan that they would like to shut up of healthcare and move on. >> they should shut up and let us get back to russia. [ laughter ] >> my guest is the pivots going to be that they'll try to blame the implosion obamacare on the democrats and make them own it and that won't work.

immediately, they'll pivot and remember this number, $32 trillion. they're going to run on against single healthcare and they're going to try the use that $32 trillion number in every election. republicans are talking to themselves and this is where they are comfortable. they are more comfortable in opposition and be outraged to be against something than actually governing and defending something. i think donald trump will be satisfied in having somebody else to blame for the failure and trying to pinch the collapse exchange and making a pivot to run the healthcare. >> most governors, republican governors were closed off to opening exchanges. the issue of getting this up and running when it first went through in the struggles is that most states have had because of republican obstacles that were in place because they did not want to succeed. mitch mcconnell did not want

this to succeed and they are left with that position now. governor, it is great to have you charlie sykes. thank you for joining us. that's going to wrap up this our. joy reid is joining us. tomorrow "the beat with ari melb melber," only here on msnbc. the stakes are so high, your finances, your future. how do you solve this? you don't. you partner with a firm that advises governments and the fortune 500, and, can deliver insight person to person, on what matters to you. morgan stanley.

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the media have been so obsessed with russia. i am a talk show host, i have opinions. when i look at issues like ukraine and the influence that they try to have on the elections as long as helping the democrats, that does not seem to be getting much played and the vladimir putin scandal, you see people