attorney general, that he is going to have to confront. >> michael steele, rob reiner, thank you so much. that does it for me. thanks for watching our debut, we're back tomorrow at 6:00 p.m. eastern. you can find on on facebook and water, @thebeatwithari. chris matthews starts now. >> whatever it takes, let's play hard ball. ♪ ♪ ♪ hall good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. we begin an explosive week if trump land. anything is possible. president trump displaced no limits to what he will do to protect himself. he accept node limits of what he will do now. the presidency is his and he will use every weapon at hand. the greatest of which is his personal readiness to use all of them. he fired men and women in his way and he will fire more. he will fire until he gets what

he wants, north korean caliber of the owe pabedience. no attorney general. no special prosecutor is safe the moment trump decides to dump him. he tweeted he has the complete power to pardon. this morning he took another shot at attorney general sessions. quote, so why aren't the committees and investigators and our beleaguered, there's a shot, attorney general looking into crooked hillary's crimes and russian relationes. whatever they were. axios reporting president trump is so unhappy with attorney general jeff sessions that he raised the possibility of bringing back rudolph giuliani to head the justice department according to west wing confidence. giuliani denied he was being considered for the pog though he may not have heard that conversation. he recuses himself. according to nbc news, one source said giuliani can best be described as spit balling. today an an lunch with interns,

he rolled his eyes when asked about sessions. let's watch it. >> mr. president -- [ inaudible ] >>. >> that's the president behaving like an intern. an interview with the new york times, president trump criticized attorney general for not letting the president know that he would recuse himself. let's watch that. >> well, session should have never recused himself. if he was going to recuse himself, he should have told me before he took the job. >> this warning to robert mueller. >> mueller has finances unrelated to russia. is that a red one? >> that is a breach of his actual -- i would say yes -- >> usa today's heidi and david

kate johnson, making of donald trump. thank you all. let's start with heidi. he is operating on two fronts. we have this attack on the attorney general and on mueller. is there any doubt that trump will do what he has to do to save himself? >> i think he is pretty transparent, chris. he have had presidents in the past who have been accused of executive overreach or doing things in secret. this is right in front of us. and it has begun from the very beginning with attacks on the intelligence community. attacks on the media now on his own attorney general. no question that he is going after sessions because he said it was because of his recusal. not because of the job that sessions is doing as attorney general. arguably he is fulfilling trump's agenda more than any other cabinet member at this point. immigration. >> targeting, preventing himself from being challenged, impeached, whatever by mueller. >> the amazing thing is he is totally transparent.

>> the president making it clear. as heidi said, he made it very cleary wants to have a clear road to exoneration. the way it do that is get sessions to quit. pick somebody to replace him. do what he is told to do. what he is told to do is fire mueller and not name another special counsel and drop this whole thing. >> right. but i'm not sure how he thinks he will get that. how he will get an attorney general who is actually going to do the saturday massacre on whatever day it happens. it seems to me that his annoyance with sessions is possibly just that. could be that he just can't get out of his head the yiidea that sessions' recusal started this cascade of events even though it didn't. but trump seems to believe that. what he seems to be doing now, what he did with shawean spicers make it impossible for him to

stay. so the beleaguering -- >> he is the one beleaguering. >> he is talking about his own attorney general and putting sessions into a position where he has it resign. >> out of humiliation. >> oh, yeah. >> you add great job at san francisco examiner once and now you are doing this book. tell me, what is trump capable of doing here? >> donald will do anything to save himself. including if necessary of throwing members of his own family under the bus. he is in full survival mode here. so you shouldn't be surprised at anything that donald does. i agree with heidi. he is quite transparent as a candidate. he talked like the presidency was adictator. as president he acts as if he thinks the presidency is a dictator. i was at the "l.a. times" in san francisco. >> oh, i thought so. >> you have to answer for him, too. let me ask you about this shot and shift. shift does a lot of tv time. he may be running for president

sp. calling h calling sleezy. sleezy is just about the worst thing you can say about a politician. tell me about that tendency, to give people nicknames and things like that that he has shown already. destroy someone's reputation if they get in your way. >> this belittling of other people is tactic of donald's his whole life. this isn't something new. and not the least bit surprising that he will continue to in various ways attack anybody. >> donald has two modes. adoration and survival. that's it. two sides to the coin. adoration and survival. and he is so far in over his head on this job that as i predicted he is becoming more and more erratic as time goes by. >> let's look at usa today. an amazing front page. top of the fold. already at 42%, here it is, woke up this morning. i read the paper. says americans poll, split 42% to 42% on impeaching clinton.

i mean, impeaching trump. to me, look, they haven't run a case to court. haven't taken them to the house judiciary committee. 42% of people want to get rid of this guy. only 42% want it save him. 4% are dropping off. i voted for the guy to i want him impeached. >> what i thought was more notable in the poll is that 46% think he's not making it to the end of the first term. just 27% think that he will. >> we know the country is evenly divided. only 27. % actually acknowledge that despite their wishes they don't think he will make it. i thought that was an astounding piece. >> it would be hard to anyone someone that would pass mustard. you know, open voir dire. they have made a decision. 42% say get the guy out of here. now we don't need a trial. >> of course.

that's political question, right? you get a political answer. ultimately impeachment is a political process. >> and remember, jerry -- >> there is a lot of information on this russia thing. >> jerry ford said the reason he pardoned mix pardoned nixon in part is because he believed it would be impossible to get a fair jury to try him. the idea is not without precedent regard trump. if trump is removed from office and isn't tried, convicted and in prison he will spend the rest of his life doing what nixon didn't do. nixon shut up and came back trying to revive himself. donald the attack the legitimacy of the u.s. government. >> i'm not sure he will obey the court. we have seen it with the nepotism thing, right down his direction. look what he did to his predecessor, accusing him of being an illegal immigrant. he is ruthless with this stuff if it benefits him. i think it helped to get elected president. >> of course it did. >> thank you. as i mentioned, the president has a pattern of ruthlessly

getting rid of anyone creating a problem for him. fired his campaign chairman after the new york times reported manafort's dealings with a political party from ukraine. jared kushner delivered news at a breakfast party. m manafort rejected stepping down. glancing at his watch, we are putting out a press release 9:00 a.m. >> that means you resigned. >> that's kushner. >> then firing of michael flynn. and again after media reports embarrassed the white house by revealing flynn discussed sanctions with the russian officials. the white house had known about it for weeks but finally got around to doing something. according to president trump flynn did nothing wrong but fired for misleading the vice president. here he goes. >> fired him fo because of what he said to mike pence, very simple. mike was doing his job.

calling countries and his counter parts. so it certainly would have been okay with me if he did it. i would have directed him to do it if i thought he wasn't doing it. i didn't direct him but i would have directed him, because that's his job. >> in may, the president fired james comey and suggested to lester holt that the russia investigation is the reason for his firing. let's watch. >> in fact when i decided to just do it i said to myself, i said, you know, this russia thing with trump and russia is a made-up story. an excuse by the democrats for having lost an election. that they should have won. >> we're going to get to it next segment. but a little tease now. kushner a pure little guy, don't like publicity, got a job at the white house, doesn't like publicity. shy little guy. then you read how he fired manafort. >> 30 second. >> this excuse -- this excuse he

didn't know -- >> this excuse he didn't know what was in the e-mails. he didn't read the subject line of the e-mail? if he can't read the subject line of the e-mail, what is he doing working in the white house with this huge portfolio that his father-in-law gave him. >> come to the meeting, it's important. then he blamed it on his assistant. this is the most amazing amount of bs -- >> charitable interpretation is that he and his father-in-law have not made the transition from being the sole proprietiers, from a company to make the decision, or from the apprentice maybe -- >> these guys are ruthless. >> in over their heads. they've had enough time to figure out that much. >> so that's the charitable interpretation. >> everything that jared confronted is a fact he couldn't change. oh, i don't remember. all this bs they do when they don't want to tell the truth. and they didn't. next, where are we going with

this guy you have written about. where are we going with trump? is he willing to fire the speci special prosecutor by in effect firing the attorney general. how far will he go? >> donald will wait until last possible minute to take actions because he doesn't know what will happen. and it is pretty clear under the constitution he can't pardon himself. because it goes against the idea of checks and balances in our constitution. by the way, to do it, he would have to acknowledge he committed crimes against the united states. he has to admit he is a criminal if he tries to pardon himself. >> we'll see. i'm not sure. i'm not sure it is that complicit. this court is pretty republican. i'm not sure he couldn't get five votes on this court. he has gore spis such waitinging to help him out. coming up, president trump's son-in-law, jared kushner, says

he met with russians on four separate times during the 20 sf election. but he said he never cluded with them. think about the purpose of that. plus the showdown this week on the health care. even as he turns up the pressure republicans look like they still don't have the votes. they don't. can a sitting president be indicted? ken starr says the answer is a big y-e-s. what does this mean for the president? that's ahead with the roundtable. let me finish with trump. this is "hardball" where the action is.

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washington post" report that discussing campaign-related matters with the russian ambassador. this gets bigger all the time. she wroets, quote, if this is true it is directly contrary to the testimony general sessions gave under oath during his confirmation hearings. we'll be right back. e trend ana. hey. hi. hi. his confirmation hearings. we'll be right back. the testimo gave under oath during his confirmation hearings. we'll be right back. but we just compared historical claims to coverages. but we have those new audits. my natural language api can help us score those by noon. great. see you guys there. we would not miss it. watson, you gotta learn how to take a hint. i love to learn. watson, you gotta learn heri think i might burst..... totally immersed weekenders. whatever kind of weekender you are, there's a hilton for you. book your weekend break direct with hilton.com and join the summer weekenders.

hey you've gotta see this. cno.n. alright, see you down there. mmm, fine. okay, what do we got? okay, watch this. do the thing we talked about. what do we say? it's going to be great. watch. remember what we were just saying?

go irish! see that? yes! i'm gonna just go back to doing what i was doing. find your awesome with the xfinity x1 voice remote. welcome back to "hardball." everything we have seen from jared kushner, a carefully crafted pr effort. top aid to the president spieling ear it ear this morning as he visited capitol hill with a closed door meeting with staffers. meticulously drafted 11-page statement kushner down played but did not encounter four figures with the campaign and the transition. then speaking later to the white house press, rather than capitol

hill reporters, kushner states a short public photo op delivering scripted remarks at a podium bearing the white house insignia. here is what he had to say. >> let me be very clear. i did not collude with russia nor do i know of anyone else in the campaign who did so. i had no improper contacts. i have not relied on russian funds for my businesses. and i have been fully transparent in providing all requested information. donald trump had a better message and ran a smarter campaign, and that is why he won. suggesting otherwise ridicules those who voted for him. >> he didn't take any questions. just went right back to the white house. no questions. now john fearry and ron reagan,

arthur and msnbc political analyst as well. ron, i saw a pr stunt today. couple of things. they made a point of going back to white house press corps. they got the people, have to cover the president all the time. then the bogus defense, no one said that hillary clinton lost because the russians involved. they said russians got involved and trump helped them. i think there is a lot going on in the press conference, everything but the truth. i think the guy add lot mohad a power and a lot more ruthless. look how he fired manafort. comes out like simon pure. i'm a shy guy. that's the nart got part that g. i bought a newspaper in new york and i married donald trump's daughter, but i don't want publicity. give me a break. your thoughts? >> you're right. this is all about optics. this was mr. kushner goes to

washington. he was talking for the jimmy stewart role there. but out in front of the white house with the white house podium in front of him as you said, smiling ear to ear. h hey. nothing to see here. i'm an innocent sort of guy here. when you examine his statement and you think about the context and the history of all this, that it paints a rather different picture here. we are meant to believe that he is so innocent and so naive about all of this. that he just sort of stumbled into meetings with russian, you know, former intelligence agents without really knowing what's going on. but you know, there's always a tell about these sorts of things. when you're lying and these people lie constantly, the whole family does, you always slip up somehow. and if you look at his statement, his written statement, he mentioned it, he says of course he knew nothing about why this meeting was taking place. then he mentioned as an aside,

when he entered the meeting they were talking about adoption and he was surprised to discover they were talking about adoption. why would they be surprised if they were talking about organic developments or newest developments in denture cream since he had no idea what meeting was about by his own representation there. this whole thing stinks. and if he's so naive that doesn't know that meeting with russian representatives before you're even in the white house is a little troubling, he is certainly too naive to handle middle east peace, opioid crisis and rebuilding the government and too naive for a security clearance. >> john, did you believe him today? >> i did. you're right about the pr strate strategy. i thought it worked well. i read the statement. i thought it was pretty convincing. but i'm the kind of guy who would think that a guy like jared kushner, not really a political animal, first campaign he was part of, he probably didn't know all of the things happening tsh- >> first of all, he gat meot a private and confidential, we're

meeting with people about the russia situation. meet with russians who say they will help your father-in-law win the election and hurt hillary. he knows all this going into the meeting. now he says, i don't know what it is about. all this is a fact. >> what he said in his statement was that he is supposed to be in the campaign -- >> you said russia -- >> he said it was -- >> this is about russians putting a -- >> you believe it was about russia -- >> i don't think he -- he might have. i don't know. >> it says private and confidential. rush yasians we russians were supposed to help us. >> why did he show up? >> when the boss's son says show up, you show up. >> facts he can't deny, show up at the meeting. what he deny says this aspect. like when i filled out the forls,forl forms, i didn't admit all the

me meetings, my assistant pushed the send button. come on. both time the assistant pushed the accepted button? what are you willing to give your 30% of the country willing to buy any crap you give them? >> i will say this. >> normal -- >> i know, i know several members of congress that today refile whatever forms they had. i know do you that all the time. i also know assistants sometimes make mistakes. i'm willing to give jared kushner the benefit of the doubt. he is new to politics. i'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. >> does this square with mr. innocent here? >> paul manafort -- >> how did he say manafort, in 30 seconds, move out the door. >> i think he could be a tough businessman. i don't think there is any doubt, but he didn't know much about politics. >> here is a guy assigned middle east portfolio. what do we make of that? working people and all kinds of

stuff to get jobs for working class people. he is freighto on one side and michael on the other.aeighto on michael on the other.ighto on o michael on the other.ghto on on michael on the other.hto on one michael on the other.to on one michael on the other. >> you can't have it both ways. he is either inexperienced and over his head and he shouldn't be where he is. or he is colluding with the russians and in which case he really shouldn't be where he is. >> we know he was there. he was talking to the russians about their efforts to help his father-in-law win the election. i know what collusion means. conservative blogger jennifer rubin writes in the washington post, kushner is not the worldly boy wonder in his version, but a distracted dill tant, if not evidence of malicious deception the story reveals a young man who is in over his head and out of his depth to such a degree that he does not know he is in over his

head and out of his depth. i don't believe that. >> from a pr perspective it was brilliant. got his side of the story out before he leaked out from the committee. i think that's smart. >> okay, refusing to talk to the open committee. refused to talk to senate in open committee. refused to take questions there. reading a script verbatim. >> he is getting out in front of the story. telling his side. then a private meeting with the intelligence committee and giving all of the information that he has. i think doing a -- >> but they have nothing to hide. why not just speak in open hearings? and why not talk to the press openly? >> he doesn't want to further startry alonoartry alongrtry ar. >> oh, that performance today, wre walked out and walked back in like a robot. that isn't helping anybody except for those defending him for what he says. >> he can talk about the optics -- >> anyone defending anything you

say -- sorry. go ahead. >> we can talk about the optics and the pr all we want but we can't lose site that there is something going on. meddled in our election and there is a good enough. a good intuitive cents that the white house, current white house, donald trump and his family, were somehow involved in that and there is certainly colluding after the fact by covering up and refusing to investigation. >> and for all his attack on washington, this city where there are a lot of good professional people, who know how to deal with congress, know how to deal with the press, former deputy attorney general, and long time friend of mine, people like another guy i know well and like, these are the pest in the business. they so for always knocking of washington, trump is using the best of washington it save his keister. thank you john and ron. >> up next, gop health care plan on the ropes.

taking republicans, sayinging they have gone very little to protect -- he is like secaesar, i'm talking in third person. this is "hardball" where the action is. i make it easy to save $600 on car insurance, so being cool comes naturally. hmm. i can't decide if this place is swag or bling. it's pretzels. word. ladies, you know when you switch, you get my bomb-diggity discounts automatically. ♪ no duh, right? [ chuckles ] sir, you forgot -- keep it. you're gonna need it when i make it precipitate. what, what? what?

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"how to win at business." step one: point decisively with the arm of your glasses. abracadabra. the stage is yours. step two: choose la quinta. the only hotel where you can redeem loyalty points for a free night-instantly and win at business. . i'm page hopkins and here's what's happening. the fiance of the truck driver charged in connection of the

immigrants smuggled in the back of the tractor-trailer claims bradley was unaware his track was packed with 920 people. a baby hospitalized in britain, earlier today charlie gard's parents dropped the battle to send their child to the u.s. for treatment. monsoon storms dropped inches of rain in tucson, arizona. now we will take you back to "hardball." >> you're going to have such great health care at a tiny fraction of the cost. and it's going to be so easy. >> president obama has been the most ignorance president in our history. he has been a disaster as a president. he will go down as one of the worst presidents in the history of our country. >> nobody knows the system better than me. which is why i alone can fix it.

>> back to hard ball. president trump elected on the promise, you heard there, acteding with a bold agenda and wipe away obama's legacy. it is end of july and he and his party have little to show for themselves. tomorrow they are expected to plow forward with a vote to begin debate on legislation that would repeal and replace obamacare. this afternoon president trump turned up the heat on republicans calling them to cope the keep their promise. let's take a look. >> every republican running for office promised immediate relief from this disastrous law. we must fulfill that promise to the voters of this country to repeal and replace. what they've been saying. for the last seven years. any senator who votes against starting debate is telling america that you are fine with the obamacare nightmare. >> meanwhile, trum aep fellow

republicans are growing weary with a health care debate that seems to have exposed deep fault lines within the party. pete sessions told one political website that internal tensions and distrust within the party are as bad as he has seen in years. "politico" is looking to distance himself. this weekend trump previewed those attacks tweeting that it is sad that republicans, even some carried over the line on my back, to very little to protect their president. congressman from georgia, thank you for this. i have always understood, let me ask you this, why didn't trump come into and test it on reveal. then would you have known how many votes you had. and how many you today give away to get some, you know, save some of the features of obamacare. >> quite honestly, i don't think anyone envisioned this being the

problem that it has become. when you think about the fact just last year in the 114th congress we passed a bill. >> but you knew before would be nobody to sign it. >> that's the key. >> that's the joke. it was impotent because you could vote 60 something times before you became a member. repealing knowing that obama would never sign a repeal in his most important legislation. it looked good. but then you're confronted with it, keep the preexisting conditions. how do you do that hafrder rder meeting the mandatory requirements to get into the si system. it is hard to do this. >> it sp the president said himself it is kplacated. it is hard to get here. >> hopefully mitch mcconnell will get the bill, procedural vote tomorrow. hopefully pass the american health care act. >> you have four or five people, maybe more up to ten senators on

your side of the aisle who say they won't vote for it. >> that's what they said last week. we'll see tomorrow how they vote on it. >> if you allow people who have -- who just make maybe you might say unable financially or a responsible person and say i'm not buying insurance. a lot of kids in their 20s. i couldn't have thought about it. riding motorcycles without a helmet. enjoy life or a drink. you later if you find you have diabetes or something serious with your heart, and then you want insurance. if you don't require people to be in the system but you are -- you say when you're 45, 50, 60, then show up. that won't work. >> the american health care act allows people to cover their children up to 26. >> it doesn't require them. >> it doesn't require them. >> how do you keep they think

system. >> how do you do that. >> insurers are competing for your business. >> preexisting conditions. >> now the american health care act addresses preexisting conditions. we took care of that. what we sent over to senate takes care of -- >> okay average guy or woman is thinking i got it pay the bills, feed my family, pay tuition and everything else, heating bills and else else, by the time i list everybody. don't have enough to buy insurance. i'll wait until someone gets really sick then we will. >> we penalized them if they did not have coverage. they have to have 30% -- >> that's mandatory tlen. >> that's a penalty they have to pay -- >> then it is mandatory. >> it is not mandatory. >> just punish them if they don't do it. >> they should. you can't buy home insurance

when your house is on fire. >> i used to ride a motorcycle. when you're on the highway and you wipe out which happens once in a while you want someone to take you back to the hospital and you didn't pay make el for that. you expected that to happen. >> right. >> the libertarian philosophy -- >> none of that will change. you will still be taken to the hospital. >> do you think this will pass? really? think about it. >> i'm still very optimistic and confident we can get this done. >> i disagree. that's why you're here. difference of opinion. up next, question that's getting increasing attention to face of the russian investigation. can a president be indicted in long hidden memo says yes, they can. round ball, can he try himself, can he get an indictment? i think he will try. you're watching "ball.

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sfs president trump's legal team was looking into whether he had the power to pardon his team or himself regarding the russian investigation. on saturday the president asserted he does have that power. tweeting while all agree the u.s. president has the complete power to pardon, why think of that when only crime so far is leaks against him. fake news. that wasn't clear at all what he meant. the president's team offers conflicting takes on whether the president does indeed has been discussing pardons. let's listen to the jamboree of thought here. >> we have not and continued to not have conversationes with the president of the united states regarding pardons. pardons have not been discussed

and pardons are not on the table. >> i'm in the oval office with the president last week. we are talking about that. he said he brought that up but he doesn't have to be pardoned. there is nobody around him that has to be pardoned. >> is the white house prepping pardons for everyone? >> the answer is no. i discussed this with the president. this is part of the hoax. why are we talking about -- there is nothing to pardon. why are we talking about presidential pardon when there is no presidential crime. >> anyway, that raised a host of previously untested constitutional questions. and here we are all about the president's authority to pardon or not to be indicted or not or big questions. and new york times charlie savidge is here. he has been looking into both on the president eauthority to issue a pardon himself. savidge writes the answer is quote not clear. explicitly stated is on using a

pardon to stop an actual impeachment in congress. while they are widely understood to be irrevocable, some experts think a president abuse of pardon authority might be subject to prosecution. that complicates it all, doesn't it mr. president? if the president is subject to prosecution, can he be indicted? savidge points to an unearthed memo from ken starr's office suggesting the answer could be yes. an adviser to starr writes it is proper constitutionally and legal to indict a sitting president for criminals acts that are not part of and are contrary to the president's official duties in this country. no one, even president clinton is above the law. that's one view. we bring in the "hard spls baba roundtable.splsball" roundtable. ball" roundtable.ball" roundtable.

charlie, can the president pardon himself? >> nobody knows. it would be a conflict of interest. you can't be a judge in your own case. justice department -- >> why hasn't anyone ever written down, the president can't pardon himself if he has pardon authority. >> four days before nixon resigned, it is asserted, it makes no sense. they don't explain why this thing that is rational is a law. >> if you're judge scalia, and a lot of members of the court are, who believe that if it isn't written in the constitution or an power provider whatever denied, then it is not there. no privacy about the impeachment. and why would this supreme court which is conservative, led by gorsuch, basically, why wouldn't they say the president has the right to pardon himself. why not say that? >> we would have to find out. president trump would have to purport to pardon himself and some time down the road -- say i'm doing it and sometime down the road someone diets him.

and they say you can't indict me i'm pardoned. >> who would challenge him on this? >> if the prosecutor indicted him later, the president or ex president probably, would fight the indictment in the first place. and say, throw this out of court. >> i pardon myself, drop it. i don't want to hear about it again. the supreme court -- and trump, we don't know what he would do even then. do we? we don't even know then what he would do. >> thank you for inviting me to the vaadvanced criminal law seminar. i hope i can handle it. i think the better explanation is he can't pard yn himself. charlie is right, we don't know. >> is that just what liberals would say? >> i don't think so at all. there is definitely some situational ethics if not hypocrisy. >> i always see the experts,

cox, it always reflects ideology. >> so on the scalia question, i think that somebody who is looking at the constitution would say, we don't have an exact answer here but we have to look at structure of the constitution. the structure of the constitution provides one way to deal with the president. provides the pardon power. but does seem to involve a concept that a man can't sit, or woman, can't sit in judgment of his own case. i think the better answer is no. on the situational question, if you're a conservative council or investigating democratic president or democratic leaning independent council investigating republican president. if you are a pros dutor you think that president cannot be indicted and if you are the president's lawyers you think a president can't be indicted. >> i think he is talking about it. i believe the people in the room who said he was talking about it are accurate. why else would he say it? it is a brilliant strategy.

they found the opposition. if you want to waste all your time prosecuting me, i will pardon myself. just a big waste of time. >> the fact we are even talking about the potential of the president pardoning himself just shows how far trump stretched the debate over the powers of presidency and regardless of the little validity of whether or not he can pardon himself, they said presidential self pardon could be grounds of impeachment in itself. >> who will indict him for that? >> the indictment again could potentially be raised by impeachment. that's the one exception, right? >> must have read the -- 42-42 about whether he should be impeached. 42% say without a trial or vote on the house on articles, they don't even need articles.

this is how straining j this debate's gotten. i just want him out for embarrassment for whatever reasons. >> i would argue that's premature. >> you tell that 42%. >> i will go tell that 42%. but i think that as i think about that sort of likelihood of pardons, i don't think we will get a test what if it develops this way. the president pardons a bunch of other people. hey, special counsel mueller, i pardoned all these people, you've got nothing left to investigate. >> he gets sessions to quit. humiliates him like he did sean spicer. he will never get a new and improved by senate. he gets an acting ag. get rid of mueller. then there won't be any more muellers. then get rid of the russia investigation. what's to stop trump from going that route.

>> the acting ag has to be a confirmed, and under the vacancy's act he has to be. the scenario you're worried about is a recess appointment. we are telling down the bullet of the august recess. >> why couldn't the acting ag said the -- >> some to be calm. they could be -- they could be the -- a secretary of health and hum human services. >> could be his favorite u.s. attorney. >> doesn't have one yet. >> could find one. >> they are all fired. >> one aspect to raise, and republicans i have spoken with on capitol hill, big question is when do they say enough is enough. what do they need to say with trump and the russia investigation to be more concerned? so far broadly defended him throughout the ideal. the republicans i spoke with privately would be a colossal mistake as is the potential of him firing robert mueller. that is also something he signalled he is looking into.

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flying senator john mccain back to washington for tomorrow's procedure on health care. he is recuperating and getting treatment from doctors. that's how tight the vote will be. they need john mccain there. >> we got our secret from you, didn't he? >> how about one more. i don't know if if it is a secret. couple of democratic donors and former democratic staffer add their private information dumped out a year ago and wikileaks put out democratic e-mails hacked just before the conviction filed a lawsuit against the trump campaign and roger stone alleging in conspiracy and invasion of privacy. if this can get to discovery it becomes a new method for investigating what happened not under control of republicans. >> more trouble in paradise. we'll be right back.

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trump watch monday july 24, 2017. donald trump as we have seen to our national dismay will do what is necessary to defend his presidency. firing mike will flynn, sally yates, comey even driven out sean spicer. in the process of giving that to attorney general jeff sessions. this is as good as any available guy to the trump trajectory. what is next, once he rid himself of sessions he can pick an acting attorney general who can bre pair mandatory tasks. one, fire mueller. two, don't name replace many. three, push the trump russian case to the legal equivalent of

siberia. if there remains a dim sign of life in prosecution president trump will use his constitutional pardon to free daughter ivanka, son-in-law jared and son don junior from harm's way. if it comes to it we he will test his prerogative to dot same for himself and not in can say with certainty what trump will do next but to say what is necessary to keep him in the white house is a slam dunk. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. >> tonight on "all in." >> let me be very clear. i did not collude with russia. >> denial on the white house drive way. >> i had no improper contacts. >> what the president's soon in law just confirmed about his russia dealings an congressman eric wau swau well and what he plans to ask kushner next. and is the president about to fire his attorney general? >> how do you take a job and