great to have you with me. welcome to "msnbc live" coming to you from new york city. i'm thomas roberts. we know this weekend there has been a lot of discussion about the palace intrigue at the white house and it looks a lot more like "game of thrones," that's coming up tonight, than "the west wing" because heads rolled with the president firing his subard nants, almost at the same rate as he's bullying them. first on the chopping block is sean spicer, that's when the tv cameras were on, or if he was actually talking to reporters from the white house shrubbery. next up, reince priebus, who rejected to the appointment of anthony scaramucci as communications director and priebus swiftly found his way out the door. perhaps the biggest head to roll would be that of acting attorney general, jeff sessions, a far-right conservative from alabama who was one of the first elected officials in the republican party to endorse and travel with donald trump on the

campaign trail. for all of his troubles, sessions has been blasted over and over again on twitter and in news reports and it's clear that trump really wants to get rid of his attorney general for his recusal over the russian matter, or at least that's what he says. the man who copyrighted the phrase "you're fired" can say that to one of his top appointees. joining me is howard, david jolly, served as in house of republicans representing state of florida, joan walsh, msnbc political analyst, and national correspondent for "the nation," rick stengel, former managing editor for "time" magazine and former undersecretary of state for diplomacy and public affairs -- >> long title. >> let me get a drink of water. as well as senior vice president for social justice at the new school. >> breathe. >> yes, breathe in, breathe out. it's great to have you all here. howard, let me start with you. i want you to listen to this.

this was former campaign manager of donald trump and certainly a confidante of his, speaking out earlier today on everything trump and the administration, corey lewandowski. >> the thing that general kelly do is not try to change donald trump. as you know, i say you have to let trump be trump. that is what has made him successful the last 30 years. that's what the american people voted for. anybody who thinks they're going to change donald trump, doesn't know donald trump. >> howard, we know that corey lewandowski ran afoul of the family, the children, and they were pretty much the catalyst to get him removed from the campaign. we're getting reporting now that the family was pretty influential in getting reince priebus out. do you think general kelly has what it takes to shape up a west wing already in motion that's kind of out of control? >> well, i think can corey lewandowski said right there that the answer to that is no. that you better let donald trump be donald trump. it was sort of a warning from

corey lewandowski, who is on the outs but not quite on the outs. he's part of the entourage again. he's there. and he has donald trump's direct ear when he wants it. and so do a lot of other people. whether it's anthony scaramucci, whether it's members of the family, probably kel canlyanne conway, probably steve bannon and others. that's the way donald trump likes it. i covered donald trump when he was in business. i covered his whole campaign. he doesn't like a sharp, clear chain of command because if you had one, that would put all the responsibility ultimately on him. he wants a floating constellation of people, constantly around him that he can either praise or blame as the situation warrants. general kelly right now is at his maximum point of power. the thing that he has to do, starting first thing tomorrow morning if he hasn't already started now, is to say

communications, mr. president, come through me. you've got to do it. whether he has done that, whether if he has done it the president will listen, those are the two biggest questions now about whether this white house, which is in such disorder that i think it's a national security risk, whether that can be brought into good order, we'll see. >> communications, that would mean, howard, that -- you know, for the president losing his wi-fi and not having access to twitter, which i don't think is going to happen any time soon because he's been tweeting today. >> that's true. >> we're looking at "the new york times," joan, and it describes this week as one of the worst weeks that any modern occupant of the oval office has experienced in his inaugural year in power. meanwhile -- so, there was a honeymoon period for reince priebus and donald trump. now a different reset moment going on here. can they get a fresh look from people that have been slamming them in op-eds and everywhere

else without the dysfunction of the first six months for this next six months? >> they can get a fresh look if they look fresh, you know, if they look different, if they come out and unimaginably kelly takes the twitter away, takes his phone away, gets that control. because you can't run a communications message out of the white house when the president is tweeting either in opposition to it or distracting from whatever the message is and making allies angry across the world but also allies domestically. i don't know why john kelly took this job. i find it fascinating. i think perhaps as homeland security secretary he thought maybe this is the most important thing he could do to protect the homeland. on the less optimistic side, one of the reasons he's supposedly taken it is those two men have bonded. that's a little scary to me. i don't know how you bond with donald trump without, you know, being a sycophant and i don't assume he's a sycophant to anybody. >> a lot of people have

characterized the career of general kelly as not somebody who suffers fools or idiots. they're saying he brings this no nonsense approach to the white house for this job, but is that -- is he going to get really sick and tired of having to deal with a president that could be out of control, everyone's been waiting for this pivot? he's been over at homeland security with his head down doing what's expected of him. is he going to be giving orders? the general is in charge now? >> thomas, there are three kinds of jobs in washington. hard jobs, impossible jobs and white house chief of staff. it's even harder when a president who is co-lossally undisciplined. chain of command is something the military really respects but they also have something called commander's intent. he could use that with trump. the tweets are something that he could glean commander's attempt from but he needs to create a

really, focused, orderly system. he can't have people walking into the oval office that he doesn't know about. he can't have anthony scaramucci reporting directly to the president. it's very difficult, though, when people in the white house, like one of the people is your daughter and one is your son-in-law, do you tell them you can't go in and see your father? yes, you have to do that. >> especially since don junior is under investigation and has lawyered up, as some of the other kids, like jared kushner. that's the only place we've seen donald trump really strongly defend anybody that's closely tied to his administration that's in trouble, the kids. jeff sessions, who's in trouble, he's kind of berating and belittling. peggy noonan had this op-ed she put out today saying the president's primary problem as a leader is that he is impet yous, not that he's impet yus, brave, or an outsider, it's that he's a

weak and sniveling, undermining himself by ignoring american masculinity. saying he's not strong, self-controlled, cool, tough, determined, he's whiney, weepy, self-loathing. he's a drama queen. >> did she measure his hands? >> no. but this is scathing coming from peggy noonan, who, you know, really hasn't been shy and sharp words for him. do you think this is basically her saying, you are not obama? >> he's not not obama. >> not cool, tough, determined, he's whiney, weepy and self-pitying. >> he and donald trump has made clear, he is not a person who has self-discipline. at the end of the day, that's what we need in a commander in chief. i mean, think about priebus' exit and kelly coming in. the question is, what's their mission? donald trump is one who sets the mission by tweet, which is a

completely inappropriate way to run a government, number one. it's impossible, then, to maintain a message. but it's also the job of the chief of staff to try to keep the administration foek can cuss on the number one priorities at the moment. what are the number one priorities now? donald trump promised universal health care. we were down to only a question of repeal of obamacare, which is not providing universal health care to the millions of uninsured who need insurance, not to mention the 16 million who would lose insurance. secondly, what happened to the 25 million jobs over the next decade? he promised an infrastructure bill. we have no progress and i don't think we'll see any progress on an infrastructure bills. that was going to be one of the strategies to jobs. at end of the day, he'll have to figure out how he'll be accountable to his own mission, what his chief of staff is going to be doing to drive that mission. i don't think that's clear at all. i don't even think that's a question of masculinity. that's a lack of leadership. >> because of reince priebus and sean spicer's deep ties with

republicans in washington, d.c., through what they did at the rnc, who they groomed, you know, a lot of these elected officials to get there, with them gone, is the establishment kind of training wheels of a spicer and priebus off the trump bus to get anything done, that we expected from them to do. what's going to happen now with a general kelly that doesn't have those deep policy ties? >> he has hill ties. he was the marine corps' lee say son to capitol hill. this is donald trump pushing away the establishment. he embraced them briefly. i would also say if you look at priebus and you look at spicer, and we know they had impossible jobs, but they didn't do it. they were bad at their jobs. priebus did not get a legislative agenda done, even though donald trump stood in his way every day. saun spicer was a lampoon on

"saturday night live." yell is the all-pro, the peyton manning, the all-star. what to look forward forward is this, the final fate of john kelly will be the litmus trust for donald trump's seriousness to govern. if he does not listen to the likes of john can kelly, then we really are done with this administration. this is the last best hope for donald trump, a serious general like john kelly. >> if they did have a plan for the first six months, priebus and kel spicer can could have been the pawns. i want to say, we did all this reporting and reading about spicer taking jobs -- next job and interviews around towns. what hypocrites any broadcast network will be if they hire him. he's not here yet. i'm just saying what hypocrites every network will be if they hire sean spicer. anyway, i'll leave it there.

howard fineman, david jolly, joan walsh, rick stengel, and what's next in the health care battle. president trump calling out senate republicans and threatening congress members' own insurance. how a group are taking on a charge to strengthen the nation's health care system on their own. how your clothes smell can say at lot about you. that's why new downy protect and refresh conditions fibers to lock out odors. so clothing odors don't do the talking for you. lock out odors with new downy protect and refresh. pcountries thatk mewe traveled,t what is your nationality and i would always answer hispanic. so when i got my ancestry dna results it was a shocker. i'm everything. i'm from all nations. i would look at forms now and wonder what do i mark? because i'm everything.

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president trump, as we know via twitter, says he's not done health care. he's threatened congress's own insurance in a tweet. it's just not in congress. he's also threatened to cut off key obamacare payments this week that stabilize the insurance markets. health and human services secretary tom price wouldn't commit to the implement of current law. take a listen. >> our job is to follow the law of the land. we take that mission very, very seriously. and so our goal is to make -- is to put in place as well as the

president's goal is to put in place a law, a system that actually works for patients. you can't do that under the current structure. >> so, senator bernie sanders blasted the president today for trying to sabotage obamacare more. >> i really think it's incomprehensivible we have a president of the united states who wants to sabotage health care in america, make life more difficult for millions of people who are struggling now to get the health insurance they need and to pay for that health insurance. >> as we know, the president has already taken some concrete steps to undermine the law. the administration cut 2018 enrollment periods by half this year, also scrapped sign-up assistance centers in 18 cities. so, joining me now is democratic mayor of dayton, ohio, nan wayly. it's great to have you here. you're part of the u.s. conference of mayors, a bipartisan group looking for solutions at the state level while we witness the d.c. gridlock here. explain the situation in dayton right now. what's it like there?

>> well, thanks for having us on. yes, mayors are really at the forefront of all of these issues. that's why the health care battle we've seen, washington at its worst, is one where we've tried to have common sense approaches because we know things need to be fixed with obamacare. we want to make sure people have high-quality health care at lower costs but the gridlock in washington and the games being played, we haven't seen that movement at all. now today with the president deciding not even to follow the law to make sure that people can get the access to health care that is the law today is problematic to mayors across the country. >> with the trump organization -- excuse me, the trump administration, ending contracts with organizations, these different sign-up centers for 18 cities, explain what you're trying to do or what you can do or have done on the local level to make sure that the avenues for people wanting to follow this law and willing to follow the law have access. >> well, we still continue in

sfes like dayton and across the country to use our health care sites to make sure people have access. it's really unfortunate because in the previous administration we had navigators, for example, that could really talk through what people's options are and to make sure they get the best care possible that they could afford and that was rightfully theirs. further, you know, the stopping of the changing of just repealing obamacare has significant issues for cities like dayton and across ohio and the midwest where we're seeing the opioid epidemic, and not to have medicaid would have stopped in its tracks all of the work we're doing to make sure people receive service for treatment. that's one example where, you know, not having -- people not having medicaid, not access to health care could really affect, you know, poorly our whole community. >> i want to play for you, though, the fact that there is recognition by democrats about problems with obamacare. this was senator dianne feinstein earlier today. take a look. >> the fact that insurance is

levied based on individual state mandates, so you have all 50 states to deal with, should there be regional marketplaces or one specific marketplace with specific federal guidance rules for this, we need to look at that. and you have real problems with the subsidies for people under $47,000. you earn $48,000, and you get nothing and your insurance can cost you $800 to $1,000 a month. >> mayor, for the city of dayton, how do you think a regional marketplace would do? >> look, we're for any time we can really make sure our folks have higher quality and more choice and lower costs. and i think that's really what the focus should be on health care for the country. we've said that from the beginning. hey, work with mayors, work with governs for the places where we've got to get the job done. we can't just stand back and let

gridlock happen. we know there are things to improve it. the senators are right. just repealing medicaid or repealing obamacare isn't going to get that done. >> mayor wayley of dayton, ohio, great to have you with me. appreciate it. we all have heard what the president's threat to congress would be about health care. but there are certain senators that don't seem very phased by it today. >> would that kind of pressure change your vote? >> no, but, you know, the ball is really in our court right now. >> i would turn that around a little bit and say to the president of the united states, that, yes, every single american in every state in this country should be able to get the health care that members of congress have. >> joining me now is yvette fontenell, a former deputy director at hhs, and also with us, charles kizer, author and

journalist. his new book "cost of courage." people can pick it up. let's start with the interview there with susan collins of maine. she was one of the three no votes with mccain and murkowski. it's been written and reported that those three senators really don't have a fear of the tea party. and that's what gave them the strength to do what they did. what do you think the reaction is going to be to the president saying he's going to cut off the subsidies for congress and insurance companies that cover poor americans in this country? >> well, i mean, you know, the house democratic leader, the senate democratic leader, after those votes they both said they're eager, willing, interested and engaging in a bipartisan process to pass some sort of short-term market stabilization bill. that really has to happen before september to have any meaningful effect. then the move to regular order to have hearings and listen to witness testimony and go through the normal negotiations that can really produce a long-term

health care reform bill. and a bunch of moderate republicans, like susan collins and others have said the exact same thing, that they're interested in the same thing. so substantively, there's no reason that we couldn't move to that as the next step here. but politically, there's a handful of republicans, including the president, who want to continue down this same failed pathway they've been on, frankly, for the past seven years of just repealing the laws as opposed to trying to improve it and fix it. and, you know, if they continue to waste time down this path, i fear they won't be able to fix anything for the american people who are really struggling with health care costs. >> charles, we know how disappointed this president is in not being able to have any type of legislative accomplishment when it comes to health care, really much of anything else for that matter, but is this going to be the retaliatory week for donald trump to strike back at different senators and congress members who can't seem to get their act forward moving forward on an agenda that is a win for

him? >> when you're the most unpopular president in this stage of your presidency in modern history, i don't think threats from this president carry a great deal of weight with these senators. and, in fact, the way he's approaching the national health care law, i don't think we should call it obamacare. we should call it the law of the land. he's refusing to enforce it. this is just the latest example of a lawless president. >> and when we think, though, that the president has gone after, you know, the obama administration or president obama for not enforcing laws, whether it's at the border or other issues to do -- that there were directions from the department of justice that the president would avoid, how is this any different if he's not going to enforce this? >> it's dramatically different. in fact, obama deported a great number of people just as trump is doing now. more problem than obama should have. but this is a direct violation of what congress has mandated, especially the threats to stop

the subsidies to the insurance companies, which is already thrown the marketplace into chaos. and there isn't anyone as the mick mulvaney went on tv to say and said america is desperate for a new health care law. well, no, it's not. america is very grateful to lisa murkowski and susan collins and john mccain for standing up and preventing this terrible law from being passed. that's where the momentum is. not where donald trump says it is. >> why do you think the republican party does not -- or did not have any type of plan to enact? not three or four or five different models that they could all get on the same page on after seven years of talking and running on repeal and replace? >> because they're not a serious party. as has been pointed out for a long time. they're not serious. for seven years they repealed the law but they had no idea what they wanted to replace it with. >> do you agree?

>> i believe for seven years they were about the rhetoric of just repeal obamacare and weren't thinking through substantively how actually do that. when we passed the affordable care act, it was a very difficult undertaking to get both sides of any party, both extremes ends of any party to agree to something that's going to be wholesale reform of the health care system. and there wasn't much thought over the past seven years given to what the details of that would really look like and how it would work to help people. i think the bottom line is that the markets right now are reacting to the uncertainty that's been created by this congress and specifically by the president. and that's what insurance does. when there's uncertainty, they price for that uncertainty. without that uncertainty, the markets would be functioning and there would be small fixes that needed to be made on the county level to the law but the markets would be functioning. so, the thinking wasn't about, you know, how do we -- how do we improve and fix it. it was about just the rhetoric of great to have you on in

person. thank you. we've been following this breaking news today about russia and its actions against u.s. diplomats. vladimir putin in this wide-ranging interview talks about retaliation to the u.s. now, some 755 personnel from u.s. diplomatic missions in russia are being sent home from that country. we'll talk about that and much more right after this. ! you're not taking that. come with me. you're not taking that. you're not taking that. you're not taking that. mom, i'm taking the subaru. don't be late. even when we're not there to keep them safe, our subaru outback will be. (vo) love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. it's looking up, not down.ng fit's being in motion. boost® high protein it's intelligent nutrition with 15 grams of protein and 26 vitamins and minerals.

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we want to dive in more to this breaking news out of russia and that interview with vladimir putin. late on friday after reince priebus and president trump went their separate ways, we had president trump saying he would sign a bill that congress agreed upon to impose these sanctions on russia. it's all in part because of the election hacking. by then the russians had threatened to throw hundreds of diplomats out of their country. then today we have putin confirming more than 750 u.s. diplomats will be coming back home. he says this is a way to even the score, so to speak, a retaliation.

joining me to talk about this, howard fineman from "the huffington post," mike baker, former cia covert operations officer, and political writer for the daily banter, also just back from moscow, ten days there. we'll dive into that. howard, what do you make of this interview with president putin saying, yeah, this is retaliation for these sanctions and also saying that they do not believe that american/russian relations are going to get any better? >> no, i think the ouster of the american diplomats is the least of our problems with russia at this point. i mean, from talking to military people and people on the hill, the big concern right now is nobody's running the american government. and it's a national security concern to these people that i talk about. there's such chaos within the white house. there's such a lack of confirmed people at important positions, even in defense, and state and

so forth, that we're really at the mercy of whatever trouble the russians or chinese want to make. and in the case of russia, there's a lot more concern about the cat and mouse game going on in the air over the baltic or what putin may try at a moment of american weakness in the ukraine or elsewhere. the fact is, donald trump came into office disparaging nato, disparaging the idea of strength in russia. now he's got himself in a situation where he's in a confrontation that he is not strong enough to control, it doesn't seem to me. and i think vladimir putin is fully aware of that and will take advantage of it slowly and carefully as the days and weeks go on. >> mike, from a calculated perspective of how these countries operate, you know, because we're all in the business of spying on each other and stealing secrets, trying to figure stuff out, but with hundreds of less americans on the ground there in diplomatic capacities, would you expect

covert teams to quietly up their numbers in russia and what that means moving forward? >> well, it's not -- unfortunately, that's not how it gets played out because its not possible. it's not as if you secretly drop in new covert personnel into russia. it's not like a special teams operation -- >> would you really tell us if it worked that way anyway? you would never tell us? >> oh, of course, i would be open and transparent with you. no, you pointed to a very important point from an operational perspective -- look, i'm not in the white house. i can't speak to the level of chaos or what it may or may not be. the perception is important. i agree 100% with howard. those that aren't aligned with our interest, china, russia, north korea, pick any of them, will view the perception of chaos as an opportunity for them to engage in activities, again, not in our interest. from an operational perspective, sure, any time you have fewer people on the ground, whatever official capacity they are, whether it's for communications

purposes, whether it's for diplomatic purposes, whatever it may be, that's a problem and so, yes, if we're losing 700-plus personnel -- look, this is not something new. putin and his cronies have been stewing over the disparity in numbers between their personnel in the sxus our personnel in russia for some time. i suspect they've been looking for an opportunity to do this. it's not good from an operational perspective for us. we will adjust. this game has been going on for as long as you've had diplomacy and spying. it's not unexpected. we'll certainly adapt and adjust. but it is concerning from that 30,000-foot view that howard alluded to at the beginning. >> when you were in moscow, what's the temperature like for people that are maybe paying attention to this closely or not paying attention to it? is there a perception issue with how the two countries are getting along, especially via the coverage of what happens with trump and putin? >> i talked to a lot of

different people, including opposition politicians, including just average people walking around in the park, including my own mother who's in the russian government, you know, and you have a very wide variety of views there. for the most part, i would say in russia, a, they're not paying attention to every single detail that's being reported in the news here. overall, there is a sense of hope that relations would improve between the two countries. average people look at this as something between leaders, a diplomatic breakdown in relations but nothing that affected the russian people and american people and their feelings toward each other. when we look at sanctions being passed, we have to look what their intended effect is. thus far, if the idea behind passing sanctions is to punishish vladimir putin and his government and try to get them to change their position or actions, that hasn't worked. the people that are going to be suffering and feeling the impact of these sanctions are just average russian people. and vladimir putin is the kind of leader who will do things and take positions to shoot his own

country in the foot. you know, if it just means paying a position of power and a leader on the world stage. >> changing their behavior would men first they have to accept responsibility that they did meddle in the election, which is something our intel agencies have come to a consensus on, even though the president has tried to demean that and also demean the reporting of that, while we have this continuing investigation of robert mueller going on. and now the talk of trump going after jeff sessions and being angry at him for his recusal. do you think there's any possibility that if jeff sessions could move over to this empty spot of john kelly, homeland security? >> let's start with the first part of that comment from you. the way to understand this sanctions legislation, because it is very significant legislation, is that congress almost unanimously has concluded that the president is not adequately protecting the national security interest of the united states when it comes to russia.

that is a dramatic statement from the u.s. congress. and it's precisely because the president refused to acknowledge and refused to hold russia accountable for its meddling in our elections. so, trump in a sense has played himself into a losing hand with respect to russia because with the passage of these sanctions, putin has concluded that there is no new relationship with the united states. that's why he's taking these actions. now, with respect to the russia investigation and mueller and sessions, i would be very surprised if jeff sessions was willing to leave the department of justice. that for him is the job he views as a lifetime achievement. and he would view it as a compromise of his integrity, i believe, and the integrity of the department of justice to allow himself to be pushed out in that way. i believe he's made the decision that if president trump wants him out of that job, president trump is going to have to fire him and take the political consequences. >> can i just jump in for a minute?

we always talk about these losing hands or who has the upper hand. the truth is that the russian government doesn't have all that many tools in this proverbial tool box to use. this move was delayed in order to expel diplomats. that was something that was a holdover from sanctions put in place during the obama administration. there were hopes it would change under trump. moving forward, it's kind of a lot of talk and a lot of bluster, but there's not so much that vladimir putin can do except for, of course, try to exploit a relationship with china or exploit the european union's frustration with the sanctions because that's going to impact their supply of natural gas and their energy structure there. but overall, you know, barring, obviously, what we all hope would never lead to military conflict or massive cyber security measures, there aren't that many moves vladimir putin can take. even this one doesn't actually impact his relationship with donald trump. >> well, the really crazy thing is after they met at g-20 was the talk of cyber security,

working with putin. this does kind of thwart any forward motion or momentum for these two men to continue a process of friendship. mike, let me ask of you, especially when it comes to cyber security because the intel community came to this consensus about what happened with their meddling in our election. and that type of warfare is real and it can be very life-la hif life-altering, as wenessed in this country for what it means to democracy. for president trump to not have any type of say so about these sanctions, is that to vladimir putin, he's just a depreciating asset right now in the capacity he figured him to be as the next american president? >> well, vladimir putin is a fairly easy cat to read in the sense that he always works from or looks to work for a position of strength. and, you know, he's playing on weakness here and he's playing on the chaos we talked about earlier. so, yes, this is -- i mean, all the way around, this is not

good. whether you're talking about just perception or talking about operational realities, from a cyber security point of view, the russians are the number one perpetrator of cyber shenanigans, of economic espionage, of cyber activity not in our interest. china being the number one state-sponsored. but, you know, there's -- there's what happens in the public theater, which is what we're talking about now and we're talking about the chaos and the perception of the white house, and there's what happens off the radar screen. that just keeps going. no matter, frankly, who's in the administration. and by that i mean, you know, people shouldn't sit up at night filled with angst because there's just nothing happening to protect national security in the u.s. there's a vast effort with a very, you know, large level of resource being put into this issue of how do we protect the homeland from cyber security attacks. it's an ongoing effort. we're a little slow to the game but people shouldn't be under

the impression that what you see at the white house and the chaos means there's nothing happening below the surface. there's a great deal happening. >> we're just following the bouncing ball of tweets. great to have you all here. howard fineman, thanks. we want to talk about the president's controversial advice for police, what he had to say in long island coming up later in the hour. dude. your crunching's scaring the fish. dude. they're just jealous. kellogg's raisin bran crunch with crunchy clusters and the taste of apples and strawberries. i got one! guess we're having cereal for dinner. kellogg's raisin bran crunch apple strawberry.

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you look at what's happening all over the world. take a look at nice. take a look at paris. weave a we've allowed thousands and thousands of people into our country. and there was no way to vet those people. there was no documentation. there was no nothing. so, we're going to keep our country safe. >> we have president trump's crackdown on immigration into the u.s. and the aggressive approach to deportations that many minority communities feel anxious about when it comes to how this administration's agenda

will roll out over the next 3 1/2 years. i'm joined by aqeil sharman and has written an op-ed piece in the washington post today and it she sheds life on what it's like to be an immigrant living in america under president trump. you talk about in some communities it's immigrant against immigrant taking sides on this new policy debate. what is that like to have that type of debate or that type of argumentative structure between those that are new to this country? >> the -- i mean, if we were to try to think about it, my main point is that the -- there's such a pain to being a minority, to being an outsider that we would rather identify with the oppressor than the oppressed. so, you have this communities turning against communities, so that's the primary thing. there's also at least within the indian-american community, the

hindu community, a real anxiety about muslims, which aligns with donald trump. >> so, when it comes to how the agenda of this administration is going to roll out, what we know has happened for i.c.e. and for the different people that have been challenged with having to leave this country or face deportation from this country, what's the sentiment toward trump administration compared to obama administration, who was also known for deportations? >> enormous hostility against the trump administration. i think largely -- compared to the obama administration, there's -- there seems to be a genuine belief there's anomous against immigrants. before there was a policy, there was some sense that, okay, we think for the good of america, we need to behave this way. here there's a real sense that donald trump has sort of kicked over the rocks and all the bugs

are crawling out, there's a really nastiness to what's going on. >> meanwhile, we have general john kelly leaving his role as homeland security to becoming the next chief of staff. his views pretty much align with the trump administration about immigration policy. but you talk about in the article, and you say, i have become willing to see myself as an immigrant writer, but it has made me less tolerant. in my heart of hearts, i don't think this is good for anyone. so, how do you feel less tolerant? >> you know, for a large -- for a long time i tried to see myself as just a writer, as just an individual human being because i think that's who we are. but these labels are getting pressed on us, that i'm indian or i'm an immigrant or i'm this or that. but this -- if i begin to see myself as an immigrant, if i begin to see myself as a brown person, i begin to see other

people as white people. and i think that is diminishing. it's reducing the other person. when i meet people, i now oftentimes run into the sentiment that if you are somebody who came to america, lived here for a long time and became a citizen, that citizenship is still worth less than the citizenship of someone who was born in america. then if you go over that, you end up with, okay, you know, like a cousin or a nephew of mine who is born in america, his citizenship is worth less than that of somebody whose parents were born in america. and so there's this real hierarchy that's now being formed as to what exactly it means to be a citizen. >> and the american dream is supposed to take away stigmaization and separation. and yet it seems like that's what you're questioning right now for this article. >> i think that is what is occurring. i think that donald trump has created such an atmosphere of hostilit hostility, that that's what's

occurring. i think what he's also done is brought out all these secret hatreds that already existed. so some extent, mostly we've become the things we voice. we become our thoughts. you know, shakespeare said nothing is that thinking does not make it so. and trump has made it more acceptable to be hostile, to be resentful of people who don't look like you. and this means that the country becomes more racist. you know, even good people begin to respond in -- like if i begin to see myself as a brown person, i begin to see others as white people. and i think that's diminishing. really, the american dream of being judged by the character -- by your character is being -- is getting eroded. >> it's a grail article, a great new book. thank you for your time. i appreciate it. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back after this. they're handing us more than mail they're handing us their business

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many police department came out to reject those comments saying we'll not tolerate roughening up prisoners. back to me now from the new york ci city, miles, let me start with you, this is a crisis for the country certainly over the last eight years with criminal

justice reform questions and a lot of people getting hurt at the happenends of police. how did this help toward that is? >> this does not help towards that and it is shameless. you cannot have the president of the united states suggesting things that law enforcement ignore the constitution laws of state and most police's jurisdictio jurisdictions, they're ignoring their training and their own patrol guide. we are starting to see an up tick in confidence of police. it has dropped 22 years low down to 52% and just went up to 56% last year. we need to see more improvement and we have been seeing improvements of police department stemming in the wrong direction. >> the trust with a lack of

community relationships and a lack of police officers that actually live and work in the same community so people know each other. the president here, this is dangerous lingo to be shooting off the triumph press of the cops. it is dangerous talk. >> it certainly steps on his own message as well in many ways. i understand he wants the signal strong to law enforcement and i understand that he wants to signal stronger sense of support that he believes of the prior administration had. when he makes these kinds of statements, they become the news, professional law enforcement officers have to distance themselves from this. this is no t the values that we uphold. once again he interfered with his own message here by going

off record. you can see he's ad libbid libbd creating more of a problem himself under minding the message. >> the boy scouts began the week and had to come up with their own of the rhetoric that's delivered there and of the freddie gray, they did tot seek justice through. those officers were charged but no one was found criminally responsible for the death of freddie gray. it seems that the president was almost talking about a freddie gray type of case. that's how he was killed and injured. >> so there is a couple of things he's talking about and one i would say he's on message and his message to the campaign had been very much that he -- be all stand up for police officers. we should say that. it is a critical role that police play in our community, we need to keep them safe and

kmoount sa community safe. when you have someone that's not the police officer's job determining innocence or guilt. you are allowed to do something that you are not allowed to do which is to be violent with them when you have no reasons to protect yourself or a third person or control of a situation where tlas there is a gun. you have command of the situation, that's exactly when people's civil rights and protections are at play. one wolf the things police officer commissioner did here in march was they came forward of immigration because they need the trust of the community and donald trump under minded their trust. >> great to have you as well through this hour. thank you at home for sticking with us. we'll be back with more right after this.

thank you, i am thomas roberts here on msnbc, "meet the press" is coming your way next. this sunday, the chaos presidency. in the west wing, reince priebus, white house chief of staff, out. >> i think it's a good time to hit the this sunday, the chaos presidency. reince priebus, chief of staff is out. >> john kelly, homeland of security is in. president trump goes after jeff sessions. >> i am disappointed in the attorney general. republicans pushed back. >> if jeff sessions is fired, there will be wholly hill to pay. >> an inside look of how president trump operates