anything else it will be about false statement, potentially personalry and obstruction. >> we can't predict the future but past impeachments have had obstruction. that's the beat. we'll see you tomorrow at 6:00 p.m. eastern. "hardball" starts now. a trump grand jury. let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. there are new developments in the special counsel's probe into russian meddling in the 2016 campaign. in a potential cell lynn collusion with the trump campaign and possible obstruction of justice by the president himself. the "wall street journal" is reporting that robert mueller has impacted a grand jury in washington, d.c., a move that legal experts say suggests he believes he will need to subpoena records and take

testimony from witnesses. the journal speaks the grand jury which reportedly began its work in the last several weeks srgs a sign that his inquiry is growing in intensity and entering a new phase. nbc news is not independently confirmed the "wall street journal's" reporting. on his way to board marine one tonight at the white house, the president did not respond to questions over the noise of the helicopter about whether he would decide to fire robert mueller. >> mr. president, are you considering firing robert mueller? will you hold a news conference again? >> are you going to fire mueller? >> well, this hour the president will take the stage at a campaign style rally in huntington, west virginia. we'll be listening for any real news in his speech the tonight. joining me now, the white house correspondent with the "wall street journal," robert costa with the "washington post" and an msnbc political analyst, and joyce vance, a former u.s.

attorney. give us the story about this d.c. based grand jury working for mueller. >> it seems lying it was impanel ad couple weeks ago. the difference, there was a grand jury, there is a grand jury working on the flynn investigation in virginia. has the different one. and a sign to a lot of people who have seen this over several decades, you don't do this if you're investigating a jay walking charge. this is a sign that it is a serious probe, it is just getting started, they want to use this grand jury to subpoena a lot of information. get information from people. find evidence. that they're going to do night man per makes it easier on bob mueller who works in washington organization his team of attorneys working on that case. and the people who look at this say, you never know where the grand juries lead. this is a sign that this is something in the beginning phases and that maybe expanding somewhat and growing in scope. the president sat down a red

line. >> his red line. not mueller's red line. focus russia. don't look at my finances. earlier, a few days ago we heard news of an attorney joining mueller's team who is a highly paid, high profile white collar crimes defense attorney. it seems pretty clear this is not going to be a narrow focus. >> give as you sense about the importance of impanelling a grand jury. his mandate is to take up any man per may arise. any aspect of dirt, anything that looks interesting or a problem under the law. he can go after. >> i think that's right. and this move to using a grand jury that has been impanels in the district of club is important. it signals he has moved past only allegations regarding perhaps general flynn and paul

manafort, and now he's moved on to allegations where the venue, the events took place in the district of columbia. that means he might have expanded the investigation to look perhaps at obstruction of justice and events that occurred inside the white house, false sfamts were made by people, either on their security clearance payments or other paperwork, submitted to the government, perhaps false statements made in the course of interviews with the fbi. this signals a broadened investigation. >> the news of a grand jury comes after president trump warned special counsel mueller last month that any investigation into his personal finances would be, here's trump's word, a violation. here's the president in his oval office interview with "the new york times." >> if mueller was looking at your finances or your family's finances unrelated to russia, is that a red line? >> i would say yes. >> if he was outside that, would

that mean he would have to go? >> i think that's a violation. >> what would you do? >> i can't answer that question. i don't think it will happen. >> of course, mueller's probe is authorized to investigate as i said a moment ago, any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation. robert, you know this president pretty well. he seems to believe there is a red line. that somehow mueller's scope of his investigation only includes the russia stuff. >> it is hard to speculate with the special counsel is up to with the grand jury. it is a grand jury investigation. we can discuss the political cost for this president and this white house. this news comes as the new chief of staff, general jack kelly is trying to get this white house moving in a different direction. and he knows according to my sources in the west wing, that the president has been tempted in the past to fire bob mueller. he has the right to do so. and this white house, many people inside of it, do not want the president to move in that direction. can they rein him in as he sits

in the white house tonight, watching cable news coverage, digesting this information that mueller is at the forefront of national news. can the president resist going after him? >> we've seen this. if you're the president, put yourself in his shoes. i try to do this. i'm thinking, oh, my god, it is like macbeth. the armies are coming toward walls of your castle. they keep advancing. you see the fires lit, the siege towers of the castle. trump doesn't seal like the kind of guy who will let anything happen. >> this is a real thing as we know from the news today. bob is right. this eats on him. >> it should. he's under investigation by a counsel who has unlimited scope. >> the problem is he oftentimes puts himself in an even tighter straight jacket by wanting to react, wanting to do something. this is a political problem that i have to solve right now. so he tweets. a few months ago, what did he do? he went and fired fbi director.

it is probably a nerve-racking time for the new chief of staff to cross his fingers and really try to implore the president not to act rashly. >> let me ask you a couple things. as this case advances, it is clear the grand jury is being impaneled and mueller is on the hunt and he is trying to bring in subpoena, bring in more business documents, it could be the tax returns, that's always been a target of usefulness for him. does there come a point where it becomes harder for trump to move because of obstruction of justice issues? >> this news that the grand jury is throughout in the public. it would be a mistake for trump's team to forget that bob mueller has a track record on the hill. these are people used to being briefed by mueller. they know mueller. he has a high level of

credibility with him. when we hear people talk about the rule of law, america is a rule of law based democracy, what thats mean is that no person is above the law. not even the president. for the president to try to cut off an investigation that went not only to his associates or his family, but perhaps reached him personally. that would be the absolute bare bones example of a president violating the rule of law. i don't think the folks on the hill will let him do that. certainly not by firing bob emanu mueller. >> well, the president's possible attempt on fire mueller has taken lawmakers to take steps to prevent him from being dismissed. earlier, there was legislation introduced letting any special counsel for the department of justice challenge his or her removal in court. if passed, the bill would apply retroactively back to may of this year, the day mueller was actually appointed.

it is a sign of bipartisan growing concern. congress would take took reappoint him. >> i think that if he were to be removed, however it's done by the assistant attorney general or a new one, congress would assert its prerogatives and that would mean hiring a special prosecutor that might even be bob mueller. >> you know, it seems, interesting things washington as they develop into a reality. it seems like both parties with some exceptions are accepting the fact mueller is legitimate. that his mission, his mandate is legitimate. that he has to get to the bottom of this russian connection if there was one in the campaign. but also the whole question about this has to be dealt with. it seems like you can't put your hand up and say stop mueller and be legitimate as a politician in

this country. >> there's a genuine stand-off right now between the republicans and the white house. look how republicans on capitol hill are acting on the sanctions legislation. they're saying to the white house and the president, you sign what we want. we're shaping foreign policy this. not you. >> if he fired mueller, went the route that nixon went through, fire, fire, fire, let me ask you, does congress have the juice to say we'll override with you a veto and reestablish independent counsel. >> i think they're feeling like they may. six months ago when this was supposed to be the dawn of a new republican era of dominance in washington, d.c., there was a lot of optimism and less willingness to rock the boat. everybody wanted to get along and establish big ticket items. that hasn't happened. what you've seen in the last week or two in particular is more of a willingness to stand up to this white house.

you saw it on the sanctions bill. you saw how much that affected the president. and i think the president is eager to distance himself. he put the onus on republicans. he kept saying, they have to do. this they have to do this. so do you see greater distance. >> the more he punches him in the ears, cauliflower ears listening to this guy beat him up. they feel there's a we-they situation. they're not together on this with russia. congress has no stake in defending the president. >> they have a real challenge. they look at the president's falling poll numbers nationally and they see a weak president. they said he still has the bait. so you break with him here in d.c. what is the cost you pay back home? >> i'm not sure. we don't know yet. president trump's legal team is weighing in on the reports that special counsel mueller has impaneled a grand jury. here's the president's attorney. >> with almost to the

impanelling of the grand jury, we have no reason to believe the president is under investigation here. >> there's a bit of baghdad bob in that guy. it was confirmed that president trump is under investigation for obstruction of justice. can he reminds me of the some of the guys defending bill davis. >> he got the job because he would go on tv and say that stuff. >> i don't disagree with that. some people around president trump have looked to the late 1990s to how they're proceeding. you see the lawyers. >> you have this guy out there saying things like, the president had nothing 22nd that don junior statement. the news came out that he did. they get entangle in the so many

lies and that's all in the public realm. and there's diminished trust. >> let me get back to joyce vance who has been a prosecutor. it seems to me if i was a prosecutor, i have a long career behind me, a fabulous resume like bob mueller who has done everything right in his life. here's the last professional chapter and there's a guy toward make his case. i would think any time i heard this flakory coming from the white house or the lawyers, thought denial of the obvious, i just get a little more juice when i get up in the morning say i want to get the job done. >> a great thing about being bob mueller is that you have nothing to prove. that's true of a lot of the people on his team. they are people who have had storied careers. they're legends inside and outside the justice department. my suspicion is that they're not paying a lot of attention to what's going on in the white house. instead, they're waking up every

morning. we know mueller's group is divided into teams, looking at potential crimes. they're compiling evidence, putting it on to a time line. now going to a grand jury for whatever witness support or whatever documents they need. and they'll be focused on getting to the end of this investigation as quickly as possible. that's what the american people deserve right now. >> what would you see? this has all the elements. special when i the trump empire and all the possible bribery, possible whatever went on with money laundering, all the possibility that's he came into the office with. what do we see the climactic month? a year from now? >> it is really hard to predict that. with all investigations of this nature, you start at the core. you move out to the privilegy. investigations can morph. you expect them on change in scope and focus a little bit as

you uncover more information. i don't think we can say mueller will be done next month or in a year. he'll be done when he's done. that's a tough answer for people to hear but that's the truth. >> a tough thing for the man in the white house to hear. thank you. congratulations to your newspaper, the "wall street journal." robert costa, thank you for your expertise. much more ahead on the trump-russia investigation including a new report that the tacting director of the fbi told top fbi deputies, they may be asked to testify against trump. one law enforcement official said this is no longer trump o'comey. it is the fbi against this trump. this is very dangerous for the president. there's contemporary he accounts of what trump said to his fbi director before he sacked him. plus, the "washington post" obtains the transcripts of president trump's phone calls with the leaders of mexico and

australia. they raise questions from both right and bleleft about leaks. can you keep anything secret? probably not. and president trump has been playing to his base. the people who put him in the white house, in west virginia with a campaign style rally where his approval rating sare some of the highest in the country. finally, let me finish with trump watch. there's nothing more important to me than my vacation. so when i need to book a hotel room, i want someone that makes it easy to find what i want. booking.com gets it. and with their price match, i know i'm getting the best price every time. now i can start relaxing even before the vacation begins. your vacation is very important. that's why booking.com makes finding the right hotel for the right price easy. visit booking.com now to find out why we're booking.yeah!

ito become dangerous.d for an everyday item new tide pods child guard pack. helps keep your laundry pacs safe and your child safer. align, press and unzip. a short time ago president trump's lawyer weigh in the on reports that he may be looking to fire special counsel mueller. let's listen. >> the president is not thinking about firing bob mueller so this speculation that is out there is incorrect. >> would you advise him even regardless of a grand jury, that would be a bad idea? >> well, look, my job is to deal with what?

i have to deal with the facts as we have them and the case as we have it. the decisions the president would make on bob mueller is a decision that i'm not involved and would not be involved in. and frankly, the president has not raised with me, with our legal team the dismissal of bob mueller. >> baghdad bob. we'll be right back. when you have something you love, you want to protect it. at legalzoom, our network of attorneys can help you every step of the way. with an estate plan including wills or a living trust that grows along with you and your family. legalzoom. legal help is here.

with the president under criminal investigation for possible obstruction of justice, there are new signs the case against him was stronger than previously reported. the news site vox is reporting after the firing of james comey, andrew mccabe told several of the highest ranking members of the bureau, the fbi, they should consider themselves possible witnesses in any investigation into whether president donald trump engage in the obstruction of justice. according to investigators, as many as ten and possibly more of the nation's most senior law

enforcement officials are likely to be questioned as part of investigation. the witness list and possible and breadth of possible action could lead the a much stronger obstruction of justice case than trump could have ever imagined. why? because james comey actually shared detailed accounts of his trump conversations with some of his top fbi directors in real-time as the events occurred. which gives it tremendous authenticity. since abruptly firing comey in may, the president has repeatedly tried discredit the former fbi director, saying a leaker and implicitly a liar. >> mr. president, why did you fire director comey? >> he wasn't doing a good job. very simply. he was not doing a good job. >> director comey was very unpopular with most people. >> look, as he show boat, a grandstander, the fbi has been in turmoil, you know that, i know that. >> no collusion no, obstruction. he is a leaker, james comey

confirmed a lot of what i said and some of the things that he said just weren't true. >> never forget, he told the russians, of course, including the former minister of russia, the reason he got rid of russia is because he was on the russia story. that's the truth. why do only the russians get truth? anyway, it is the president's word against comey's. but as one senior law enforcement said, this was never a case of a word of donald trump against what james comey had to say. this is more like the federal bureau of investigation versus donald trump. >> this is one heck of a story. you know, the fact comey, and this is in your report, the heart of it. went around after he talked to trump on many occasions on the phone or in person made a point like good fbi agents do, basically documenting the experience and the wording he got from trump and sharing it in the moment. at one point, letting someone

else on the phone to listen to the president. tell us about the story. >> this is a fantastic story, a great investigative reporter. what he found out from pretty early on, james comey, he said this by the way in public testimony in a different way. he realized something was wrong. he was having these conversations with trump. they were unnerving him. he's an fbi guy and he knows when things are wrong. he began reaching out to a circle of lieutenants early on and sharing very detailed information about the conversations he was having with trump. in one case a chief of staff was in the room when donald trump called him and he stayed in the room and listened to comey's side of the conversation. the reason this is important is that the trump administration has been saying, even if this does get down on some kind of trump case, it is donald trump versus james comey. who are you going to believe? the president or the show boat. in fact a lot of people in real-time who will be called on by this grand jury, or likely to be called on by a grand jury to say did james comey say any of this to you? we know they were taking notes

of what comey told them as well. now you have notes on notes and notes and notes. and fbi officials are very good at testifying in front of juries. they are respected. they come from an institution that commands public trust and they're not novices at this. donald trump is. >> you know, in horrible cases like rape and cases like that, you hear about a woman, for example, that was raped, molested, something horrible, and she'll tell somebody about it. and she'll tell a couple people about it at the time and that gives tremendous credibility to her account. it is critical in many cases to have someone else who says, yeah, i know it happened because she told me right at this moment. tell me more about this. the fbi agents become collateral witnesses. because these men and women, that's what they do. they testify of they document. they know how to put documents together houflt to make cases. he has a bunch of these people around. as many as ten who will corroborate his evidence and it is his evidence, now shared by

others, the president tried to influence him. >> so if a grand jury is trying to deal with the question. any kind of grand jury is dealing with a question. is james comey credible? is what he is telling us credible? they will look for signs along the way that there's corroborating evidence that other people heard what he said. that the story was the same from early on. what is interesting, this should not be a surprise. we know james comey was taking notes from very early on and he came out and said in his testimony before the senate that he was doing that because he realized something was wrong. so we know from cops's notmey's which were shared early on, that he began to create a paper trail. that he knew he might need corroboration. so it is not shocking. he wasn't just going to cover himself, he was going to them to discuss, what should he do? in a couple of the cases that we know about, he was going to his top loonlts and say, do we go tell somebody? do we go to the d. jorks and

talk about what donald trump is doing? is there some way to stay out of trouble here? should we accede to trump's requests to say the investigation is not about him? part of conversations he was having with his inner circle were a normal matter of course within the agency which is part of why they were taking notes. part of why, they had to make gigss what the fbi should make. now these guys were actually trying to think of something in real-time. all of it points in the sail direction, that these conversations really did happen presumably if what is the the witnesses are saying. >> solid, clear, understandable reporting. up next, leaks from people connected to the white house. today "washington post" published transcripts of the president's telephone conversations with the presidents of mexico and canada. it raises the question, who is doing the leaking?

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we will build a great wall and mexico will pay for the wall 100%. yesterday, the top person, president of mexico said, we will never, ever pay for that wall. do you know what i said? the wall just got ten feet

higher. that's right. we'll build a wall. don't worry. i promise. we're building the wall. and mexico will pay for the wall. i promise. >> throwing red meat into the cage there. nothing was more dramatic in donald trump's campaign than his promise to build that big, as he called it, a beautiful wall on the border with mexico. newly released transcripts of the president's he actual conversation with the president, the issue of the wall was more like a nuisance he had to deal with. the president said, you and i both have a political problem. my people stand up and say, mexico will pay for the wall. and your people probably say something in a similar but slightly different language. but the fact is we are both in a political binds because i want to have mexico pay for the wall and i have to. the reason i say they'll pay for

the wall is because mexico has made a fortune out of the stupidity. believe it or not, this is least important thing we're talking about but politically this might be the most important thing we're talking about. in terms of dollars or pesos, it is the most important thing. the post also received a transcript of a telephone call president trump had with the australian prime minister. greg miller is the report here broke the story for the "washington post." let's talk about the politics of this thing. what does it tell you when you came across these gems about the president's politics here at home? what is he up to, talking to this guy, don't talk about the wall. >> there's a huge disconnect about what he's saying publicly and privately at the very outset of his administration and his first conversation with the mexican president. he is trying to enlist the mexican president in a political charade here. everybody knows, you won't really to have pay for the wall but i cannot deal with it if you keep saying you will not pay. i need you to help me maintain

this fiction for my base. >> in other words, if he really was going to make the mexican government pay for the wall, it's ludicrous about, if he really intended it, he wouldn't need him to hush up if he was going to get nailed with the costs. >> he makes no effort in this conversation to nail down how mexico are pay for the wall. how they will contribute or how any of that will work. the bulk of the conversation is focused on trying to pressure pena neieto to stop. >> intense conversation with the australian president about taking in refugees. these calls are both in january. president trump said malcolm, why is this so important? i don't understand. this is going on kill me. time world's greatest person who doesn't want to let people into the country and now i am agreeing to take 2,000 people.

i agree i can vet they will but that puts me in a bad position. it makes me look so bad and i have only been here a week. trump called the refugees bad. he said i've had it. i've been making these calls all day and this is the most unpleasant call all day. putin was a pleasant call. this is ridiculous. the two men thanked each other. they were together in world war ii and vietnam and korea. we've always been pretty close. >> going to a century now. and there's month nod to any of. history here. and in some of the transcript, you see trump referring to himself over and over. this makes me look bad. this is embarrassing to me. this is all sort of looked at through the prism of how it -- >> are you saying -- thank you. great reporting. during his call with mexican president enrique pena nieto,

the president defend ad need for the wall at the border to keep drugs out of the kriflt that was his argument. he said we have a massive drug problem where kids are becoming addicted on drugs because the drugs are being sold for less money than candy. i won new hampshire because new hampshire is a drug infessed den. so first, hillary clinton won new hampshire. you do have a problem up there with drugs. apparently, it is the second worst state in terms of people dying from overdoses, according to my checking today. what was wrong what trump said besides being obnoxious? did he get he facts wrong? >> well, what he said was an outrage, to say that about new hampshire. any state in the united states of america. it is an insult to all of those people who have been dealing with this epidemic for years. who, the treatment providers, law enforcement, the families who have lost loved ones. and the president came here and

campaigned and said he will help new hampshire and other states in the country deal with the heroin and opioid epidemic. what he's done as president is just the opposite. he's tried to take away health care which provides treatment for people with substance use disorders. he has called for defunding programs help law enforcement to go after the drug traffickers. we don't need insults. what we need is the president to provide help for states like new hampshire that are dealing with this epidemic. >> well said. a tweet, i am alarmed at leaks of conversations between he two heads of state. it doesn't matter what i make of this president. this is terrible. reporting can get he a lot of good stories through good trade craft but what do you make of public officials how long it to go public. it does put a president anysituation, he can't have a private conversation. >> it does. my experience is that when

people feel like they need to leak something like that, it is because they have concerns about what's going on. i think that's one of the challenges. when we have a president who tries to make national security policy, or foreign policy through tweeting, then we have a problem. and my guess is, that's why people are leaking this kind of information. they want the public to know how serious this situation is. >> okay. thank you so much. always great having you on. up next, president trump has been keeping his conservative base pretty happy in recent days. tonight no, different. necessary west virginia. there he is. they look alike. another raucous campaign style rally except this is a presidency, not a campaign. just as we're learning that special counsel robert mueller has impaneled a grand jury. showing off my arms? that's cool. being comfortable without a shirt?

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welcome back to "hardball." the president is in the wild and wonderful state of west virginia, a great state. he is back in that state which he won by 42% last november to gin up support for his base, have been. the trip comes at a time when the president has been tossing red meat to his base on banning transgender people from serving in our military. reporting affirmative action policy that may hurt white applicants. let's try to put into reality why he does it. does he do it for visuals on television? because it makes him end joy life more? he can't be doing it to shake up robert mueller. robert mueller is going ahead and going ahead here.

>> i think he enjoys it. this is something that really energizes him. i think this is a part of the job that he enjoys doing. he is always talking about crowds. even when he comes back, he's talking to report,. look at all the people in the street. this is something he loves to do. they haven't been very focused in trying to get the message out in these rallies. but this is something that trump likes. >> put this together with trump's identification, or lack of identification with the republican party itself and his ability to wield control. i think he has done a pretty decent job. getting 49 out of 52 republicans on the health care fight, the reckoning vote. that's not bad. it's not enough. >> he would like more republicans. >> there's an important senate race. he hopes to bring up joe manchin. the coke brothers will go for

manchin. >> does that explain why they don't want any bipartisan deal? because he would be part of that. >> if you're a bipartisan deal wouldn't do enough to fulfill their promise, to totally repeal obamacare. there's another newsy item. the governor of virginia is going to announce that he's switching to the republican party. >> is that the big thing? he promised us, early in the day. and thint leaked, of course. >> that's definitely a big deal. picking up on what jeremy was saying, part of what trump accomplishes with these rallies, he reminds members of congress that the base is still with him. and how much they get off on him. and that he's still -- >> nice phraseology there. i think it's true. 20 states. hillary clinton didn't bring 40 in. six states, she didn't get past 30.

so there are bagstions for trum. >> and senators are losing patience with him, republican senators, but the base is still there and he's proving that again tonight. >> and he's been able to divide himself from congress. when he speaks, he's saying the congress is not even giving you health care. they're hamstringing me on health care. >> bob casey of pennsylvania, our someone like that, indiana, you're watching the big rallies. you get a little nervous, don't you? or do you? or do you think you already lost those people? i can tell you republicans aren't looking at the approval rating. they're looking at his numbers in west virginia, indiana. >> ain't much different than what it was night before the election. >> do you know what else isn't that much different? his support among conservatives and republicans. >> let's look at this.

president trump once again went after the democrats and the russia investigation. >> the russia story is a total fabrication. it is just an excuse for the greatest loss in the history of american politics. that's all it is. it just makes them feel better when they have nothing else to talk about. what the prosecutors should be looking at are hillary clinton's 30,000 deleted e-mails. there you go. the hillary hatred out there just hanging out there. >> the oldie but goody. it has something that just revvs up the crowd. >> reach back into that stack of

old oldies. the group was nodding at everything he said. that group is just waiting for the match to be lit. >> that said, even apart from the reaction of a group like that, we hear from lawmakers of both parties. when they go home, people do not care about russia. so we're obsessed with it in the bubble. >> do you know who cares about russia? >> robert mueller? >> i think if you're waiting to be prosecuted, i would be more worried that the prosecutor than the fan base. >> this is all part -- >> by the way, a lot of the republican faithful with watergate said get off his back. until it got later on. >> until the day nixon resigned, he still had 50% approval rating among republicans. the support among set base should not be surprising. but it also shows you that trump is going to have a certain amount of durability going into 2018 and 2020 even. i just don't, their strategy

protect the base, keep what you have, and attack your point mercilessly. >> i think you have a point. i think part of that is the loss of newspapers in many parts of the country. i was in the west with my wife. we were driving around in colorado and utah and wyoming. there is no local big serious newspaper. the denver papers, you don't pick it up in the morning when you go down the drive way. there's no newspaper telling you what's going to nationally. the local newspaper is okay but the days when people had a pretty good newspaper to read. how do you keep one russia? if you're slightly interested, floss story to read. >> that's a bigger issue, right? the bifurcation of the party and where we get our sources of news that's just confirmation by us. but picking up on jarrell's the point, for any republican, the road to a victory including a general election victory, for a house member or a senator goes through the base. it requires the base. their fear is that trump takes

the base with him and turns on them. so he is proving a point that the base is still with him. >> it was first question. how does he leverage this kind of raucous rallying, screaming, i love this guy. how does he turn that against heller or someone who is not agreeing with him? mccain, not mccain, a collins, a murkowski. >> guess at finding villains. >> it is mueller. should you see the right wi twitter, it is about firing mueller. that his base will follow him there. >> why does everything back to hillary? >> it's a safe place for him. i don't know that he has totally gotten over the election

himself. it is a way of saying, don't look at me. leak at what they did. look at this other person, what she did. and she is easy to villainize. >> we all try on figure the guy out. i think he figures if i can hold close to 40%, then i'll go into the rick against the point next time. not by merit. i'll just smash them of the he had 42 in the latest polling. >> here's trump continuing to attack on the russia investigation tonight in west virginia. >> most people know there were no russians in our campaign. there never were. we didn't win because of russia. we won because of you. that i can tell you. >> good home cooking. the roundtable is sticking with us. wondering, what if?

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we were talking about appealing to the base and today attorney general jeff sessions once again said sanctuary cities will not be allowed to participate in this federal program that is basically provides training for crime reduction. he singled out four cities, including baltimore and also san bernardino. and basically, this is another way of sessions showing that he is doing what trump wants him to do and he is fighting. >> he is making his bones. >> so the what has been focused

on a lot with the change to chief of staff kelly, how he will tell trump to do things. but that's not his strength. ? it isn't stopping leaks. that's for sure. >> but trump as many former aides have learned, does not like to be told no. so general kelly is very skilled at giving trump options. okay. this might be a better course of action. choose from this. instead of saying, no, you can't do this. had if there's one thing that will make trump react in a negative way, threaten to fire the attorney general, for example. >> that's a technique that i used on my toddlers. i was going to say that had had senators zinke and murkowski had a summit over the health care bill. now according to photos he's posted on twitter, they've kissed and made up and all is

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as donald trump wallows in applause, the investigation of robert mueller advances. in the capital city called the swamp will wash away the tracks mueller and his bloodhounds are on to. you hear the words grand jury and you think about the subpoenas mueller is set to issue. you think about business documents, you think about income taxes trump has been holding tight to him thfls course the special counsel now follows. back into the 2016 campaign. back into the business ties that his people, paul manafort, carter page, the unsettling roger stone. that he donald trump and his son

and name sake who now figures so large in this case, so wide in scope and tributaries it resemble that's country's archipelago. i remember in the days of richard nixon's down fall. we now know what looms before us in all its vastness. russia. russia itself. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in" with chris hayes starts now. russia is fake news. the special counsel investigating trump and the russians, impanel as grand jury in washington, d.c. >> believe me, there is no collusion. russia is fine. >> what we're learning about where this investigation is headed. >> this russia thing with trump and russia is a made-up story. >> the new bipartisan