and in the end what will count is not the cleverness of his name-calling or the wildness of his charges, but whether along the way through all the deals and all the meetings, broke the law that rules me, you and donald j. trump. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in on chris hayes" starts right now. >> are there any russians here tonight? >> the counter offensive begins. >> they're trying to cheat you out of the leadership you want with a fake story. >> tonight new details on the mueller investigation, as the white house attacks leakers and the president and his allies undercut the special prosecutor. >> i think mr. mueller is hurting his reputation. >> congresswoman maxine waters joins me for the latest. >> then behind the line. >> to look at a real estate deal from ten years ago, we would object to that. >> what we know about investigators following trump's money and about those transcripts. >> what's the thing with boats?

why do you discriminate against boats? >> what we're learning about president trump from his private talks with world leaders. >> who is going to pay for the wall? >> "all in" starts right now. special robert mueller issuing subpoenas, and tonight the president and his allies are launching a multi-facetted counter attack. they say it doesn't matter what mueller finds because his investigation is an illegitimate attempt to overturn the will of the people. >> they can't beat us at the voting booths so they are trying to cheat you out of the future and the future that you want. they're trying to cheat you out of the leadership you want with a fake story that is demeaning to all of us. >> it's a claim that the so-called deep state is out to destroy the president, in part,

through selective leaks to the media. >> all this stuff is the deep states. the deep state's real. it's a massive bureaucracy of people that believe in liberal government, and they see donald trump as their mortal enemy. >> the president has been pressing his attorney general, jeff sessions, the same jeff sessions president trump has repeatedly publicly criticized for recusing himself in the russia investigation, to go after the leakers, and today sessions did just that. saying the justice department had tripled the number of criminal investigations involving illegal disclosures. >> we will investigate and seek to bring criminals to justice. we will not allow rogue, anonymous sources are security clearances to sell out our country. >> notably, the president is also impressing sessions to go after hillary clinton. sessions hasn't gone there yet, but a group of house republicans last week called for a second special counsel to investigate clinton, james comey, and loretta lynch, and trump's

attorney has called for a grand jury to investigate clinton as well. last night in west virginia the president argued that he is not the one with the real russia problem. >> what the prosecutors should be looking at are hillary clinton's 33,000 deleted emails, and they should be looking at the paid russian speeches and the owned russian companies, or let them look at the uranium she sold that is now in the hands of very angry russians. >> that last part is not true. she didn't sell any uranium. also under attack in the russia counter offensive is mueller. a republican who enjoys a sterling reputation among congressional republicans and who is appointed to be fbi director by george w. bush. despite that, the president's allies are casting mueller's investigation as hopelessly compromised. >> mueller has put together a

democratic hit squad that has donated tens of thousands of dollars to, let's see, democrats, including hillary and barack obama. >> wikileaks founder julian assange is asking if mueller is a "dirty cop" and trent frank says he must resign. mueller already over conflicts of interest. last night one fox news guest even argued against the concept of grand juries which are enshrined in the u.s. constitution. >> there's only one other nation in the world other than the u.s. that employs a grand jury. it's liberia. there's a reason why. because everybody now realizes that grand juries are an undemocratic farce. >> the heart of the argument is this. the president is a targets of an illegitimate subversion of democracy that is under assauant just on the president, but the people who put him in the oval office, who should rise up if and when the indictments start rolling in. >> if they end up with an

indictment against a family member just to, you know, get at donald trump when they couldn't get at him, there's going to be real uproar, a real uprising in this country. >> joining me now congresswoman maxine waters of california. it's good to have you here in person. >> delighted to be here with you. >> ken star said something. you don't want prosecutors going on a fishing expedition, and a lot of democrats laughed at that and cited irony because ken star, of course, famously started investigating vince foster and then he went to a land deal called white water, and then to monica lewinski. isn't it true that what he is saying that a prosecutor -- no, i don't think so. i know and we all know that he is looking at the possibility of collusion and obstruction of justice, but when you are doing those kinds of investigations, it is going to take you into some other areas, and those areas could be very problematic. they could be criminal.

if that happens, then he has a responsibility to follow-up on it. it's not a fishing expedition. >> wasn't the argument that -- look, you start on one thing, and now we're here for monica lewinsky because you couldn't get him on white water and then vince foster. isn't the shoe on the other foot if they can't get him on collusion or the other things, but they do on something like past business practices. >> if the congress of the united states feels given all of this information that something is wrong, that the president of the united states is out of bounds, he has committed certain kinds of crimes, they can make the decision to impeach. the final analysis is with us to determine whether or not the information that we're receiving, whether it is directly having to do with collusion or obstruction of justice or we find that there was money laundering and we find that there are crimes committed

because of the business arrangements. we have a responsibility to make a determination about whether or not he should be impeechd. >> what do you think about the idea that mueller is conflicted, that people he has hired are on public records having gwen money to democrats. do you think that compromises him? >> no, he is not compromised. as a matter of fact, he has a sterling reputation. not only does he have a sterling reputation of democrats and republicans believe that if anybody is to do this kind of investigation, it's him. not only is he smart, not only has he done good work in the past -- >> so you trust him? >> i do. i trust him, and we think that he is staffing up the correct way with people with the kind of expertise that can help bring about the truth to all that is being looked at. >> are you confident that that reputation would -- is going to hold? one of the things we've seen in this era is that the president is able to convince a sizable chunk of the country and often people in this party to jig if the other side says jag. do you think if it comes to a

showdown with mueller that that reputation holds among republicans? >> mueller is going to win even though this -- >> you seem very confident? >> i do. i do. don't forget, i've made some predictions in the past, and i have talked about some relationships in the past, and i have talked about my suspicions in the past. i want to tell you trip by trip, people are finding out there's more to this than maybe some people thought. of course, there's a lot of smoke and even now i think people are believing that there's some fire. i think that not only is mueller, you know, the correct o one, no, he is not conflicted. they are going to put their little team together the right wingers, and they're going to roll out every day with a new accusation, but it's not going to hold. >> what do you think, you know, that some colleagues of yours on the republican side of the aisle in congress want to -- they want a special counsel for hillary clinton. the president has called on jeff sessions to do that where, what would it mean constitutionally

if congress or the department of justice were to take that step at the president's command? >> well, it's not going to happen to begin with. they have investigated hillary clinton, and they have investigated hillary clinton. they have investigated hillary clinton. she has shown that she can stand there, sit there, and give them the information, answer all of the questions, debunked all of their theories, and she's won. enough is enough. they can't go there. >> alan dershodershowitz, he ha emerged as a real defender of the president recently, and he had something to say about the citing of the grand jury in washington d.c. today that i wanted you to take a listen to. he is talking about where the grand jury is located. take a listen. >> the second with unis important because of where it is. it gives the prosecutor the power to indict in the district of columbia, which is a district that is heavily democratic and would have a jury pool very unfavorable to trump and the

trump administration. so it gives the prosecutor a tremendous tactical advantage. >> he went on to talk about the ethnic and racial make-up of the district as stacking the stack against donald trump. do you think it's unfair? >> oh, it's absolutely unfair. what he is simply saying, you know, all of those black people are there, and they don't like trump, and so he is not going to get a fair trial, and so they should take it out of that jurisdiction. it shouldn't be there to begin with. i don't like that. i'm surprised that alan dershowitz is talking like that, and we will not stand for it. we will push back against that because that is absolutely racist. >> maxine waters, congresswoman from california. thank you for being here. >> delighted to be here. thank you. joining me now politics reporter of "the daily beast" and elia -- national reporter at politico. you have sources inside the white house. what is the mood there? what are they thinking as it becomes clearer and clearer,

there is a very real thing happening with robert mueller, with very real and serious people and a real serious subpoena power. >> absolutely. more than what they're concerned about, what happens with regard to mueller and his legal team is what senior aides in the white house are currently worried about, what the president of the united states himself might do in the coming days, in the coming weeks as he reads more negative coverage regarding and watches more of it on cable news regarding what's going on with the mueller investigation, how furious he gets about it. this could have to do with his various flirtations with regards to does he order the sacking of robert mueller as he has sort of flirted with in a much publicized "new york times" interview that came out a while ago or even something as simple as does he set off a barrage of angry tweets that could be legally complicating? >> you made a great point there.

we think of it as, you know, the president's defenders are rushing to his defense and towing the white house line in some ways, but it also works in the other way around. the president of the united states watches a lot of cable news and watches a lot of fox news, and it can be the case that he sits there and watches them attack mueller, and that actually is a thing that puts the -- plants the idea in his head that he should fire mueller, which is a very real possibility, it would seem. >> i do think that is a very real possibility. trump has proven himself to be something of a specialist in delivering self-inflicted blows, and i think he watches cable television on -- it's never more than a little bit removed from his hourly or, you know, five minute consciousness, and he sees vocal defenders on cable news and also people attacking his enemies, and that goes straight on his twitter feed. it was at the root of his attacks on his own cabinet secretary, attorney general jeff sessions. the real danger to the president right now is what he himself may

do. i think the latest actions -- the news of the empanelling of a grand jury show that bob mueller is deathly serious. what's not clear is how close this may come to the president himself and if he could impose some discipline on himself. he may not be touched by this at all. that's not clear yet. >> to your point, is it your understanding that there are folks inside the white house actively trying to make sure that he does not take steps like the ones you floated so that he doesn't incur further legal jeopardy? >> yes. most importantly, first and foremost, they have been advising the president rather gently, but diligently, i should say, over the last few weeks and months that ordering the firing of robert mueller would be a horrible course of action. in fact, there are bad words that i can't use on the air right now in tefrmz of how they've used to describe what happened that would be politically catastrophic if he were to do so. back to your earlier point about how angry the president gets

when he sees this on loop on the news in print, on tv in terms of russia and trump related news. mueller related news. as eliana's publication politico and my publication "the daily beas beast," the president will literally yell at his tv screen when he sees more and more russia-related news that he is displeased by. this is something that i don't think can be understated how furious and aggrieved he can feel when this comes across his -- whether it's his twitter feed or his cable news box. >> elianna, do you feel that the white house is sort of taking a turn at how they approach this? the president sort of forth rightly -- not forth rightly, but addressing it directly, the idea that it's fundamentally illegitimate. i feel like i have seen that take shape in a more aggressive fashion. do you feel the same way? >> you know, the rally in west

virginia was really interesting this week. in a certain way, i think trump has benhamering home on the same point whether it's related to this russia investigation or not that the system is rigged. he is coming back to it on this russia investigation where essentially he is telling his supporters that they're out to find something, this is a fake story, and they're going to find something regardless. they're trying to illegitimatize his victory and to steal it not only from him, the president, but from his supporters as well. what really has struck me is that i think, you know, a core segment of his supporters even if it were shown or demonstrated without, you know, clearly that trump was guilty of this, i don't think it would make any difference to them because what trump has suggested over and over again is that however bad he is, he is a preferable alternative to hillary clinton, and i think many of his supporters believe that and are simply immune to whatever might come out here and that's why you hear those raucus cheers from him at rallies.

polls -- many polls show, you know, most people do believe russia interfered in the election. most people do believe that trump colluded in some hazy way, and, yet, i think a lot of those people, the core trump supporters, sfrmimply don't car. they find him preferable to the alternative. >> that's an important point. the facts may come out, and they -- people may sort of change their views about the facts rather than change their views about donald trump. thank you both for your time tonight. >> thank you so much. >> thank you. next, robert mueller's vast legal team appears to be crossing the president's self-imposed red line as they turn to his financial times. david k. johnson about how the president might respond after the two-minute break. ♪ hey, is this our turn? honey...our turn? yeah, we go left right here. (woman vo) great adventures are still out there. we'll find them in our subaru outback. (avo) love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru.

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insider or bloomberg news, that wook way outside the scope of the mandate, and we would object to that. >> ever since president trump agreed in an interview with the "new york times" that special counsel mueller's investigation would cross a red line if it looked at his family's finances. they've said that mueller has a limited perview, but rob rosenstein's letter appointing mueller as special counsel gave mueller authority to pursue, and i quote, "any links and/or coordination between the russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of president donald trump, but also any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation and any other matters within the scope of the law." there have, in fact, been headlines for two weeks now that mueller's investigation is looking into the president's financial ties, and just as republicans appear ready to stop president trump from firing or directing anyone to fire special counsel mueller, there are also now republicans willing to dismiss any idea of the president drawing a red line. >> i believe that the special counsel has a very broad

mandate, and he should follow the leads wherever they may be. the president can't set red lines for bob mueller. >> well said. >> joining me now pulitzer prize winning reporter david k. johnson, author of "the making of donald trump." he spent a lot of time reporting on donald trump and his finances in particular. my question to you is do you think he has reason to fear mueller on that score? >> oh, i think he has tremendous reason to fear mueller on that score. remember that donald's principle bank is deutsche bank. deutsche bank has already been fined over $600 million for laundering money for russian ologarks. there's a lawsuit in new york alleging that donald authorized a quarter billion dollar tax fraud in which the profits from trump soho and donald owned 18% of the profits, ended up in an ice la

icelandic bank under the thumb of a russian. >> this is someone who has been in public life for many years, and he has been the subject of a lot of attention, and he has run into problems with civil suits. he has been fined, but he never has had any criminal convictions and has never been indicted over any financial irregularities. there's something to be said for living your life in the spotlight that long and not bringing down the law upon you, right? >> well, yes. you know, i once had harry -- the mob's number two hitman on the western u.s. in my home, and telling me about the people he killed, which the fbi and local cops backed up his stories, and harry was very proud of the fact he had never been arrested for all his crimes. many people who cheat and swindle and steal, as donald has done, never get arrested. that's not a measure of anything. >> what do you think about the idea of kind of trip wires as they go along? it seems to me that it is going to be the case. they're going to start to look at the finances and start

pulling on threads, and they are very complex finances. whether they're all above board or not, that seems to be one thing that is absolutely established. they're very complex, right? >> yes. but the things that they're going to be able to show are transfers of money. thin send, the organization that does this -- it's mostly is people who do this -- they are very good at finding a financial needle in the global haystack of funds that are floating around. once they uncover a few keys and get some people to cooperate, if there, in fact, were elicit flows of money and money launder and what amounted to pay-offs, they will find those things, and, remember, they're going to start with people on the outer edge, interview them in front of a grand jury. perhaps threaten some of them with prosecution if they need to and leverage them as they move towards the center. donald is very worried that finally he has an investigation he can't compromise or run out the clock on as he has done with

numerous previous investigations of himself. >> that strikes me as important. you have reported on other times that he has had investigations looming over him, and the steps he has taken to essentially make sure they didn't get to him, and it does appear do you feel like we're watching history repeat itself? >> here i don't think he is going to be able to do what he has done in the past, which is either run out the clock, compromise the investigation, go and rat out other people. in this case he has got a team of incredible people going after him, and those 16 lawyers that have gone to work for bob mueller, they didn't leave their million dollar a year jobs at big law firms for a two-week job or for a lark. they were persuaded, obviously, by mueller. this is important, historic work, and you need to be on the team. >> david k. johnson, thank you for your time. >> thank you. coming up, an incredible look into how president trump operates when he thinks nobody is listening. more fall-out from the leaked trump transcripts with world

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>> so much of what we know about the trump administration has come from leaks to the press. especially concerning the russia investigation. consider the case of former national security advisor michael flynn who was forced out in february for failing to come clean about his conversations with the russian ambassador during the transition. in the early days of the administration, remember, after learning flynn had been lying about the conversationing, then acting attorney general sally yates alerted the white house counsel many times going through proper channels to warn the administration that one of its top national security officials might be vulnerable to russian blackmail. yet, nothing happened. flynn remained on the job.

it was not until weeks later after anonymous officials leaked to the washington post that flynn had, in fact, talked to the russian ambassador about sanctions, something flynn had denied, the vice president had not told the truth about, and the president finally asked his national security advisor to resign. for the president and his defenders enraged over the russia probe, the leaks are the real problem. attorney general jeff sessions is at least partly to blame. last week the president attacked sessions on twitter, accusing him of taking a weak position of the hillary clinton crimes where t with emails and intel leakers. they announced a new justice department crackdown on leaks, which could include severe repercussions for journalists. >> since january, the department has more than triple the number of active leak investigations. the fbi has increased resourced devoted to leaked cases and created a new counter intelligence unit to manage these cases. one of the things we are doing is reviewing policies affecting

media subpoenas. we respect the important role that the press plays and will give them respect, but it is not unlimited. >> this comes just a day after one of the most astounding and controversial leaks of the president presidency so far. those transcripts of the president's calls with foreign leaders. next. wash my hair again now, i fuel it pantene: the first shampoo and conditioner system with active pro-v nutrient blends that puts in what other shampoos just strip out. fueling 100% stronger hair. don't just wash your hair fuel it because strong is beautiful. no wonder elle calls pantene "the biggest shampoo breakthrough in 30 years." for over 100 yearsaking like kraft has,al cheese you learn a lot about people's tastes. honey, what do you want for dinner tonight? oh whatever you're making. triple cheddar stuffed sliders. sold!

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poisoning our youth. we are cracking down strongly on sanctuary cities, and in order to stop the drugs, gangs, and traffickers, we are building a wall on the southern border. >> watching donald trump perform before a crowd as he did last night at a campaign style rally in west virginia, you can't help but wonder what he is like behind closed doors as he carries out his presidential duties. is the public donald trump the bo bombbastic persona the same guy that shows up to situation room briefings. we have a partial answer to that question thanks to leaked transcripts published yesterday by the washington post of the president's phone calls with the leaders of mexico and australia shortly after his inauguration. in many ways those transcripts reveal the same donald trump we've come to know. bragadocious, obsessed with his election victory, and not comprehending even the basic parts of policy.

he suggests he was in on the con. on the border wall, for instance, he repeatedly pressed the mexican president to get their story straight. the fact is we are both in a little bit of a political bind because i have to have mexico pay for the wall. i have to. they're going to say who is going to pay for the wall, mr. president? to both of us, and we should both say we will work it out. it will work out in the formula somehow. the wall was his most central campaign pledge, but listen to how he described it. believe it or not, this is the least important thing that we are talking about, but politically this might be the most important we talk about. i'm joined now by matt taibbi, contributing editor to "the rolling stone." what do you make of that? >> it's hilarious. it shows donald trump in his unvarnished state. he is believe and the same person except without the self-interest. it was a fascinating read. >> he also has this -- he is talking about they're -- i won new hampshire because new hampshire is a drug infested

den. is coming from the southern border. i would never call -- like the -- you wouldn't in a normal conversation as just a normal gracious person talk about a place like that. >> he repeats -- one of the things that's a constant theme in these conversations both with them is he constantly talks about where he won and why and by how much, and to be fair, in new hampshire he did constantly talk about the drug problem. in his mind this is what it sounds like when he doesn't have a crowd in front of him. >> right. right, right. >> new hampshire is a dump. that's why i won. >> in the turnball conversation there's this amazing back and forth where basically turnball -- the u.s. is agreeing to take a certain number of refugees, and trump hates it because it's bad for his brand. turnball is treeing to explain just the underlying policy of why they do what they do, and he just doesn't get it. in a very basic way, doesn't understand what he is being told. >> he is trying to help him out. he is basically trying to say, look, we can both come out

looking good with this thing because you don't actually have to take anybody. all you have to do is say that you're going through the process. >> and then vet them. you get to vet them. >> you get to vet them. you can have none come in, and trump is, like, it just doesn't penetrate to the absolute inner center of his brain. he doesn't get that far. all he knows is how it will look bad in the press to a certain audience. >> that his brand is the guy who turns away refugees. >> i'll look like a dope if we have to do that. >> you just wrote this piece saying there's no way to survive the trump white house, and i wonder if you think if there's a relationship between the degree to which this is an individual who really doesn't care about policy, doesn't have any governing vision or principle other than the brand of the candidate, and the amount of insane back biting and fighting we see in the white house. >> absolutely. to me it's a little like what kissinger's quote about academia. the politics is vicious because the stakes are so low. in the case of trump, the -- there's no organizing principle. people aren't fighting for any good reason. they're just fighting.

there's no -- he is just sewing chaos, and he is basically bored. that's the governing principle of this white house is that he changes his mind constantly. people fall in and out of favor at an incredibly rapid pace. that's the only thing that's really going on in this white house. >> do you think he enjoys the drama? >> well, what's interesting is that when priebus -- when there was that whole back and forth between scaramucci and priebus, he apparently was sour on priebus because he didn't fight back. he was acting like a reality show producer. on the one hand, he is the president. he should want there to be absolute quiet and a lack of -- >> distraction. >> distraction and ranker coming out of the white house, but he wanted it coming out of that white house, which is so bizarre. >> we also have reporting that's not the transcripts that indicate sort of similar sort of themes. this is from the washington post report on the debate over afghanistan policy. this is one of a trump confidant saying i call the president the two minute man. the president has patience for half a page.

there's another piece published by politico that says he chose christopher ray to be the fbi director because he basically got bored of the search and the last person he talked to wanted it to be -- >> we've had presidents before who have had short attention spans. bob woodward's famous book talked about highwow ronald rea couldn't read anything. zhoo this is like the smartphone era version of that. >> he is in the twitter era where a millisecond is too long to pay attention. even weighty decisions like choosing the fbi director. >> how do you think it plays out ultimately? there are two schools of thought. people that are opposed to the president are both kind of happy it's incompetent on some level because he can't you push his legislative agenda, but at the same time he is the individual who is the president of the united states, has nuclear codes, et cetera. >> i think the problem is that trump's personality is so mercurial and explosive, he won't ever be able to achieve

true stability. i think this move with kelly is very typical of what he is trying to do. in a moment of clarity perhaps he sees that he has to somehow try to impose discipline, but inevitably he will tire of kelly. there will be an upheaval, and then we'll see an absolute repeat of all the craziness that just happened just last week. i think we'll see ever tighter cycles of purges and rediscriminations. >> the scaramucci cycle. new hampshire as a factual note, the president won the primary there, but did not win the general. thank you very much. >> thank you very much. still ahead, president trump's director of strategic communication clarifies what the president meant when he called the white house "a real dump." an update from pharma bro.

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eight securities fraud charges related to two hedge funds he founded. now faces up to 20 years in prison. he earned the title of most hated man in america two years ago when he bought the drug daraprim, which is critical for h.i.v. treatments, and he immediately raised the price by 5,000%. pharma bro seemed to bask in the negative attention, boasting about his profits as well as how many date solicitations he claimed to receive. his public image proved problematic for his legal team who struggled to find jurors who weren't already biassed against him. paren a press conference following the verdict, his lawyer addressed his client's reputation. >> there is an image issue that martin and i are going to be discussing in the next several days. martin is a brilliant young man, but sometimes people skills don't translate well. we will have some good discussions. >> that's an amazing moment. while his lawyer planned to have that discussion in several days,

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prevagen. the name to remember. . >> there's a good chance there's no jail sentence at all. you know, if it's a year, that's four months at they call club fed. i'll play basketball and tennis and xbox and be back out on these streets very quickly. >> these streets. that was martin live-streaming his prediction for his upcoming sentencing after being found guilty of fraud today. he depicted his life as modest with a focus on philanthropy. >> you know, this is the kind of life i live. i don't buy fancy things. i donated $2 million to wu tang clan. >> you donated money to the wu tang clan. >> i bought an album. i got a mixed tape in return. people may see that as

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today president donald trump headed to his golf club in bedminster, new jersey, in what has been billed as a working vacation, while the white house gets much needed repairs. politico reporting that along with installing a high volume air conditioning system, the work may include replacing more carpets and addressing other issues. the president leaving his official residence just days after "sports illustrated" quoted him as saying, while at his bedminster golf course, no less, that he was spending time away from washington because that white house is a real dump. the president called the story "fake news" and "totally untrue," but the reporter pushed back saying that trump's comment was made in front of a group of eight or nine people and telling msnbc that white house director of strategic communications essentially confirmed it. >> i talked to one of the people who was part of the original conversation. they recalled it in vivid detail. i understand why the president

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so i just wanted to say there are three buckets of stuff. >> right. is one of them climate? >> yes. one of them is climate. one of them is sort broadly how politics are different now than they were, say, 15 years ago. citizens united. i'm interested to hear your thoughts on that. and some 2016 stuff. >> okay. >> you can decline. i know you're -- >> i'm not going to commit news. >> but i'll try and get you to. >> r. >> well, we'll talk about climate. >> i got to feed the beast, mr. vice president. >> that conversation about feeding the beast and topics of an interview i was getting ready

to do five years ago made it into his new movie, "an inconvenient sequel: truth to power." we did end up talking about climate change, as promised. this week i got to talk with al gore again about the realities and the politics of climate change and why he's hopeful about possible solutions to the crisis like investment in renewable energy. >> the difference between solar electricity, unsubsidized, being more expensive than fossil fuel electricity and less expensive is not a trivial difference. it's like the difference between 33 degrees and 32 degrees. that's a difference of more than 1 degree. it's a difference between ice and water. in markets, the difference between the new alternatives being more expensive and cheaper than existing energy is the difference between markets that are frozen up and markets where there are liquid flows of

investments. for the last seven years, chris, on a global basis, the investments in new generating capacity from renewables have far outstripped the investments in fossil energy. in this country last year, 75% of all new electricity generation came from solar and wind and virtually none from coal. the balance was from gas. >> that brings me to the central issue here, which is politics, right? the technology is going in certain ways, but the mechanisms are all -- the forcing mechanisms are all about politics. they're about global politics and domestic politics. so i want to ask about, there's a moment in the film where you talk about that 2000 election. it made me think about these terms more starkly than i have before. kyoto, the u.s. was going to be a party to kyoto, then this very close election in which of democrat wins more votes in the popular election, does not become the president of the united states, the republican gets in, pulls out of an international climate treaty. we have literally recreated that, 16 years later. and at both points, i mean, that

was a big moment, a fork in the road for the country. why did it happen again, i guess is my question. >> well, i don't think very many people voted for trump on the basis of the climate issue. actually a plurality of his voters wanted us to stay in paris. i majority of republican voters, two-thirds of the american people. >> but that, what is key about that, right, is that that preference wasn't strong enough to override other things in the fate of this issue. >> that's right. but another big change in the last decade, in addition to the technological developments making clean energy and sustainability far more affordable, the climate-related extreme weather events have become far more serious, far more destructive, far more

common. >> and evident. >> and evident. yesterday in miami, seven inches of rain in two hours. we're seeing these rain bombs now on a regular basis because the water cycle is being disrupted by 90% of the global warming heat going into the oceans and evaporating more moisture, which comes over the land and causes these extreme events. and the ice is melting and raising sea level and the tropical diseases are moving northward and the droughts are deeper, and you know the whole story. so people are feeling this now. and in politics and in social movements, the pattern we were talking about in technology also is sometimes evident there. i'll give you a quick example. you could take the civil rights movement, abolition, women's suffrage. in the antiapartheid movement, nelson mandela once said, it's always impossible until it's done. take the gay rights movement. if someone had told me five

years ago that in 2017, gay marriage would be legal in all 50 states, accepted and honored and celebrated by two-thirds of the american people, i would have said, well, i sure hope so but that's wildly unrealistic and naive. but it happened, because the straw men were pushed aside, and people finally focused on the central choice between what's right and what's wrong. that's the point we're at with the climate movement. >> it's fascinating you say that, because there is a theory about the resistance we've had. climate with a culture war issue. when people talk about it and the opposition to it, the opposition is in a very cultural way, it's why you've become this bete noir for opponents of it. they're not talking about science, they're not talking about approaches to risk. it's about "those liberals" what want to tell you what to do, who are associated with a whole bunch of social baggage that you shouldn't like. i guess my question is, that defines all our politics but nowhere is it stronger and more hard to defeat because you need

to motivate people to do stuff that's very difficult to do. >> there's an old saying in tennessee where i grew up that if you see a turtle on top of a fence post, you can be pretty sure it didn't get there by itself. when we see the united states as the only country in the world with these persistent levels of denial, among a shrinking minority but still there, you can be sure it didn't get there by itself. the carbon polluters took their playbook from the tobacco industry, who hired actors to play doctors and put them on camera to reassure people there were no risks to smoking cigarettes. 100 million people died in the interim before policies were finally changed. they've hired the same pr firms.

it's deeply unethical. the good news is people are beginning to see through that. so this culture war you're talking about, if you put it in the larger context of what's happening to people's wages, and to their lives, we're seeing huge changes in the global economy and in the american economy. wages have stagnated for middle income families for decades now. and there is a lot of understandable unrest. and elites were slow to recognize it because the increasing inequality kept the elite incomes going up. meanwhile, hyperglobalization flung jobs to low-wage venues. automation started hollowing out a lot of jobs in retail, for example. and so people began to question the reliability of experts who had charted this globalization path and the policies that were supposed to improve their lives. >> you were one of them.

>> absolutely. and i will own up to that. although i think in the '90s, we did a heck of a lot better job than what followed, because we respected the social contract that even as we recognized the inevitable changes that are driven by technology and the economy, we have an obligation to those who are hurt and damaged by it, to have the education and job training and the creation of new opportunities by working together through the instruments of self-government, where the market's not going to take care of it itself. surrendering everything to the market and abandoned the options that you have with policies to

remedy the excesses and heal the damage, that's what's really caused this tremendous unrest. and so a demagogue comes in and says, we're going to return to the past, everything's going to be fine. that has an understandable appeal. it's not working, because it was never based on reality. >> all right. vice president al gore, it's great to have you. the movie is called "an inconvenient sequel: truth to power." >> thank you very much, chris. >> and that is "all in" for this evening. catch us every week night at 8:00 right here on msnbc. good morning. i'm dara brown in new york at msnbc world headquarters. it's 7:00 in the east, 4:00 out west. on day 198 of the trump administration, crack down on leakers, how it is happening and what can come of it. new phase, multiple grand juries working on the russia probe. what the mood is right now inside the white house. repair job, the reason why the president is spending his working vacation in new jersey. new this