america's heartland and the eventual country had to stand up. but it sparked days of unrest and renewed a national conversation on race and policing. but specifically in the city of ferguson. so we want to go back in time and take a look at ferguson, missouri, three years later. an unarmed young man was shot and killed by police in ferguson. as police investigated, brown's body was left outside under the boiling sun for hours, a situation that led to a growing concern and a pretty angry crowd. that anger only grew in the days ahead fueled by a suspicion of the actions of the ferguson police department and the family of michael brown was outraged that even on the day officials finally released the name of the officer involved in the shooting, darren wilson, they also released surveillance video of a robbery that brown was accused of just minutes before his death, a move that supporters saw as an attempt of

it character assassination of brown. >> i'm going to read you a statement mere. michael brown's family is beyond outraged at the devious way the police chief has chosen to disseminate piecemeal information in a manner intended to assassinate the character of their son. what's your response to that. >> my response to that is first my heart goes out to the family. i can't imagine what they're going through. we have given you everything that we have now and everything that we can give you so from our police department, you have everything we've got. >> protests turned violent and the highly militarized response of the police department only seemed to amp up the atmosphere. fires were set, stores burned to the ground and the hadz ze of teargas that enguflfed the city requiring the president to call for calm. >> i know emotions are raw right now in ferguson and there are certainly passionate differences about what has happened. there are going to be different accounts of how this tragedy

occurred. there are going to be differences in terms of what needs to happen going forward. >> so promises of full local and federal investigations, as well as a change in law enforcement tactics eventually de-escalated those riots. the family of michael brown and protesters saw the case making its way through the court system. but in the end eventually, it did not get what they considered justice in all of this. more than a year after the shooting, a st. louis grand jury decided not to indict darren wilson in the shooting death of michael brown. three months after that the justice department concluded in its investigation saying wilson did not violate michael brown's civil rights. so the big questions that we want to tackle over the next hour is, how has ferguson really changed in these past three years and how has america really changed when it comes to the issues of race and police force. we want to take you straight away to ferguson, missouri where nbc's ron mott is for us today. ron, what have you seen there three years later? >> reporter: hey there, thomas. well, as you know, on wednesday

will be the third anniversary of michael brown's tragic shooting and killing here in ferguson, missouri. depending on the person you talk to here in town, that is either enough time or not nearly enough time to see some positive change here. clearly there have been changes. there are a lot of new faces high up in city government, a lot of new places like this urban league community empowerment center behind me. but on this there is some consensus -- ferguson still has a lot of work to do. >> they're burning down. >> reporter: donald had a back row seat when ferguson erupted in a violent fury three years ago this beaweek. riot police have faded from view and the neighborhood where michael brown was gunned down by darren wilson is calm again. but frustrations and doubts linger. >> it takes time. trust is something that's extremely hard to win back. if you break that trust, sometimes you can win it back. sometimes you can't. >> to win people over and

restore faith in the police, the majority black city overhauled the department, appointing the first african-american to lead the force, attacking a problematic culture spelled out in ale damning justice department probe released in 2015. for starters, the small department is more diverse today than the day michael brown lost his life. in 2014, of its 55 officers, 48 were white, just four black. now just 38 officers in uniform, 26 of them white, ten black. >> change doesn't come quickly. it is a gradual step by step process if you want to do it right. >> reporter: part of the right approach he says is making sure his officers are known in the community. >> you change people's perception, change people's concepts of police department by actually getting out there and meeting them when it is not a crisis, when there are good times. >> reporter: his predecessor, tom jackson, retired under a cloud. in a new book recently published he contests many of the doj's findings and public perceptions about his leadership.

did you run a racist police department? >> no. no. it is a ridiculous assertion. >> reporter: while he admits the optics of brown's broaddy sitting under a hot sun for hours on end contributed to tensions at the scene, something he says he regrets, gunfire added to the delay. >> at the time we're just following protocol. there is an unruly crowd gathering around and suddenly gunshots come out from behind us. now it is an insecure scene so we have to resecure it. >> reporter: today the august heat is a relentless presence here. the dangerous daily work of policing guess on amid significant change. how much has really changed in ferguson since you've been on? >> a lot has changed. >> reporter: the city council nearly all white three years ago is now nearly half black. problems persist but hope is rising. >> there are some things we can do and some things we can't do. but i think as a community when we work together, that's when you can move mountains. >> reporter: there are a couple of memorials to michael brown in this area.

one, if you can see behind me at that bench there at this new empowerment center in his honor. while people will certainly never forget what happened to him on that august day back in 2014 they are ready to move forward in a positive direction. perhaps this is going to become a magnet for positive change in ferguson. >> the empowerment center was the focal point of the unrest there as it burned to the ground. that's a fresh site with the salvation army there and urban league building. ron mott from ferguson, thank you. joining me now from st. louis, missouri, state senator maria nadal, as well as patricia bines, former democratic committee woman of ferguson township. larry fellows, an activist who was in ferguson involved in the protests following the shooting of michael brown. great to have you all with me. as we look back three years, it is hard to believe, senator, that we've come this far and seen progress, and also seen some setbacks.

but let's speak specifically about with ferguson and knowing that we have an african-american police chief now on the job there and the force being more diverse, have the reforms put in place, especially with body cams, been helpful for ferguson? >> i would say so to a certain degree. but i really want to compliment the people who go to city hall meetings every single week or every other week to make sure that the city council is aware of the changes, the full changes, that they want to see. oftentimes when i'm looking at my social media, there are folks who are still complaining, and that's good, because there should be agitation as much as possible. there had been some improvements but we certainly are not where we need to be and i hope that people continue to show their outrage and work with police officers, not only in ferguson, but the region. that's what's really critical at this point.

st. louis county police department, they've been behaving terribly recently. i think they're quite happy that all the cameras are gone, but what i have seen in the last week are individuals who are african-americans traveling on the metro who get abused and beaten and thrown against walls and slammed on the ground. so while there are some good achievements, which i am proud of, and in fact electing people who were activist on the front lines, we still have a long way to go. >> when it comes to the reforms we talked about there, and the senator is pointing out some issues that are outstanding, body cams being one of them, they were rated the nation's worst. do you think that was an issue of money or incompetence by local officials establishing that? >> you know, i think it was a fantastic, great start. three years in i think everyone can admit we're not where we warrant to be. people are still defending former actions. i'm not ready to point fingers.

i think that if we know that they're some of the worst, it is time to do something about it and to really do a deep dive in seeing -- we know that ferguson has a budget problem. they're having to put in all types of reforms because of the doj consent. is it a budget? is it bad decision making? it might be a combination of both. but now that we know there is an issue, it is time to do something about it. >> we know that there were different actions put out, again because of the forward through ferguson report. the commission released that report in the fall of 2015. but one thing that we know about that patricia just mentioned here is the fact that they had an issue of the money that they have. they waived $1.8 million in fines. this is after brown's death and because of the decree by the doj. but dismissed about 39,000 municipal court dates, signed up

1,300 people for community service instead of paying fines. so ferguson did lose money. but what is the lesson when it comes to this police department knowing that it can police effectively but without violating constitutional rights of its community members? did they learn that lesson? >> they haven't learned that lesson. ferguson is still in the top ten of the worst police departments in the country so they are not really learning a lot. i think if them hurting financially is going to fix the problem, then that needs to continuously happen. because in st. louis county in general, they're still ridiculously stopping black and brown people, giving out tickets for ridiculous fines and pulling people over still. so the problem has not changed. it's slowly progressing, but in the end, like the senator said, st. louis county police have always been a problem. so this hasn't just been ferguson, but they have been

essentially still one of the top ten police departments in this country. >> we know the naacp issued this travel warning for missouri warning people of color that they travel at their own risk right now. what was your reaction to that? >> it's about time! it's absolutely about time. and let me tell you, before ferguson happened, we heard of cases as legislators of individuals traveling through rural missouri who ended up getting stopped by police, being in jail, and ended up dying. and for various reasons. so we've heard about those stories, especially as a black caucus. now as we move into the current day, we hear some of the same things. in fact, a ferguson activist in the last six months told me about another death in rural missouri. but it's not just rural missouri that we have to be concerned about as african-americans. as i said before, there are individuals who travel along our

metro by state who are attacked. police are nowhere in sight. in fact, they're sleeping on the clock, and that is absolutely terrible. we want to build a relationship with our police officers, but we certainly just can't trust them right now. they are not working with us. they're working against us. so the naacp did a wonderful thing and i want to encourage every single membership organization that wants to have a convention in missouri, if you have a moral compass, cancel it and go to another city because you may die. >> so, senator, those are some really strong words. you feel that uncertain about your own home state right now. >> absolutely. and the naacp did the right thing. because i see this all the time. the phone calls that i get. i'm really concerned about it. i mean just -- i told you the last month, there have been several incidences in my own district. i have the airport in my district. i have ferguson in my district. there are a lot of places that

need to have more protection, but also community relationships with our police departments. there are 41 municipalities that i represent, and we also have the st. louis metropolitan police department in st. louis city and st. louis county. and while i have great friends who are police officers, there are a good number of them who are out there, police officers who are not doing a good job. and we just really need to do better. and the most important thing that i have to say right now in this whole interview is that i am not going to support the facade. there are a lot of people who are in the system who are caucasian in leadership who are elected officials who would like for people to believe that everything is okay here in st. louis. and i'm leer to tell you that is not the truth, and i will not, under any circumstances, support the facade. >> state senator maria

chappelle-nadal. thank you so much for joining us. we appreciate your candor about this. thank you all. we know that michael brown's shooting is just one of the many that we've seen in the last few years that had a common outcome with no police officer charged, let alone moving on to a trial or a conviction. but now we have a president who recently joked about police brutality and an attorney general focused on providing less scrutiny to law enforcement departments. a look at police in the aging of trump when our special "ferguson, three years later," continues after this. >> i have a son that's 27 that's out here. i have to talk to him every day when you are stopped by the police you don't say a word. you don't move! we should not have to do this! we are citizens of the united states of america. now i have to teach my son how not to open his mouth. rance wit. goin' up the country. later, gary' i have a motorcycle!

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when you see these people thrown in the back of a paddy

wag wagon. rough. i said please don't be too nice. >> there you have president trump creating backlash for the police departments. they came out saying they didn't greenlight that behavior. press secretary sarah huckabee sanders said he wasn't really serious. >> i believe he was making a joke at the time. >> why would a president need to go that route thinking that police brutality is a joke and who would find it funny right now? the national organization of black law enforcement executives certainly did not. they held a closed-door meeting with the attorney general, jeff sessions, and told him, quote, we are not thugs, we are professionals. this tension comes as the president and sessions may overturn many obama era reforms that sought to bring police and communities closer together. joining me now to discuss the future of policing in the trump era, justin hansford.

mark claxton. and carol mason, former assistant attorney general in the obama administration and president of john j. houston college of justice. paul butler is back with us, msnbc analyst and former federal prosecutor and author of "choke hold, policing black plemen." mark, i want to start first with you. your reaction to the president's remarks there with that joke, being rougher on suspects and the president saying, you don't have to do that accommodation of being kind to their heads. is that a good sign to the country or is that a kind of wink and a nod to get away with bad behavior? >> the president's comments are

reprehensible, reckless, irresponsible. there should never be a time with any high-level government official supporting or encouraging extra judicial violence. so i think on its face it really is a disgusting commentary and really it reflects on how he thinks -- what he thinks of professional law enforcement. i think oftentimes people have the -- make the assumption that he's very supportive of. but i think what it is is he is not fully aware of the complexities of the job of professional law enforcement and his very dismissive of it and thinks of us more as body guards and bouncers than professional law enforcement officers. >> well, seems pretty cut and dry, especially the type of characterization that he gave from that podium and also kind of compromised those officers that had to stand behind him to put them in a bad spot, so to speak, of having to not say anything or walk off the stage or even smile because some of them smiled or laughed about

this. the type of reaction that they got for their reaction to the president, that looked poorly for these police officers. >> oh, absolutely. and you know what? it should be. his job is not to be the -- to tell jokes and stuff like that. to be even joking about something like this in the time where we're struggling with policing in this country is just ill-advised. i think that going forward -- i mean we all know that this is not a policy change and i think people should not be concerned about that, but we have to be concerned about the one or two officers that do take this as a policy change. like mark just said, policing is professional. they go out there and do their job every day and follow the law and impartially enforce it. >> we know though that there is an issue, carol, around this country with the fact that there have been officers that have gone out and they have used deadly force or they have overused force. for people violating their constitutional rights. are we seeing a signal from this

administration that there is going to be a change in obama era policies that we witnessed in the final years of obama's term? >> most criminal justice is at the state and local level, not the federal level. i'm surprised by the speedy response police organizations gave to that comment where they quickly made sure people understood that respect is expected and that is what all police officers are expected to do. and i'm also encouraged by the fact that we have bipartisan support for continued criminal justice reforms at the state and local level so it will be our turn to show the leadership on these issues. >> you point out the state and local level for this. but we did see the doj get involved time after time in the last part of president obama's administration to deal with police forces that were out of bounds, especially when it came to deadly force. do you think that we'll see that from this administration when the time arises or no?

>> i don't know what we'll see from this administration and i am hopeful that with continued pressure from all of us across the country about what the expectations are that we all know that there's consensus around the fact that when you have trust between communities and law enforcement that we're all safer, we're all better. so i'm hoping that what we'll do is continue to learn from the practices that my old office, the office of justice programs, was funding and financing at the state and local level. >> we know that the consent degree between the doj and ferguson is one that states that jeff sessions ordered to be reviewed moving forward about how the doj is overseeing that interaction. what concrete changes could happen if that decree were altered or pulled? >> well, it is a very dangerous situation. there are these blue lives matters bills being passed all around the country. over a dozen states have already passed some of these bills identifying police officers as

perhaps victims of hate crimes if they are seen as victims of assault. and these types of rash chetting up actions that make it more likely for people to be seen as criminals, even protesters to be seen as criminals are things that really concern us, especially coming from the context of ferguson where we saw that the daily interactions reached such a fever pitch that people responded with outrage. so i hope that the ferguson consent degree process continues to move forward in a reasonable fashion. from what i understand, people in ferguson haven't seen a huge shift as of yet as a result of the attorney general's statements to pull back on the consent decree process. so that's a good sign but i'm very concerned about the general tenor that the administration is creating in the country which encourages police brutality. >> we know that this -- certainly the action of the doj

over the last several years before the new administration was to provide some oversight. also some guidance for reform for these police departments that it had gotten out of bounds and broken trust with their communities. paul, you write that the problem is not bad apple cops. the problem is police work itself. american cops are the enforcers of a criminal justice regime that targets black men and sets them up to fail." we watched recently what happened in baltimore with the police cam video. we know in other instances around the country that this has been a problem before. but explain what you mean by that. because forces are diverse. they're not just all one color or one gender. they are more diverse than maybe they get credit for. but why would you say that they are targeting black men to set them up to fail? >> you know, the ironic thing about president trump is when it comes to very aggressive investigators and law enforcement officers and prosecutors who are looking to throw the book at you, i think he understands those concerns when we're thinking about

special counsel mueller and the russian investigation. so when the targets are rich white dudes, he gets the concerns. when they're african-american men, then he stokes the fire of racial resentment which is what that comment about thugs was. we we know what he means by thugs. we know what he could say instead. who i was concerned about were those other officers, mainly white, who were laughing and applauding that racist comment endorsing police brutality. because when i see one of those cops behind me, when i'm driving my car, should i feel safe? should i feel like he's there to protect and serve me? no, not if they're applauding when the president is endorsing police brutality. so when you think about concerns that african-american men and women have about the police, the concerns are mainly about those cops in the background who were yucking it up about police brutality. >> we saw some cops not break into a smile or show anything. some cops that did smile or respond in applause.

i don't know if that's a ringing endorsement for the president or not about that statement. certainly they had to be caught off-guard not thinking that the president is going to give some flippant remark about police brutality in some way of endorsement. but we know what the numbers are in this country. paul points it out in his book about unarmed black men. they're more likely to be shot by a black police officer in this country than a white one. but when we think about the numbers of how forces are made up, is that really about right when we think about those numbers and that race might not be the biggest issue in the system itself. >> well, within law enforcement itself, i think race plays a role. not the major rule. it is not the answer to, for example, black in your police department. i know there have been some significant changes in, for example, the ferguson police department. but i think if people are expecting that to have significant substantive

long-term results, that alone in itself, they're going to be disappointed. let me get back to just point to one other thing that was mentioned earlier. i don't see any significant change or significant progress in bipartisan support for a police reform agenda. i just don't see it. there was significant resistance initially from the attorney general's office to even the ideas of police reform, and more of a tendency to want to go back to the '90s using project exile from '97 in virginia which basically added mandatory minimum sentences for gun related crimes. also jeff sessions' decision and support of what many people consider to be broken windows police enforcement. i don't see those things being consistent with an administration or an attorney general's office, department of justice, that is determined to move forward in police reform. and then finally, think it is

significant for us to recognize and understand that the focus -- taking the focus from the department of justice, criminal justice division, and placing it more on to what's happening in college campuses as it relates to bias against white applicants is very telling and significant in these times. there are opportunities for police reform. there is an obvious need for police reform. i don't think this administration has shown any commitment. and i don't see any bipartisan effort or push towards that. >> so i'm going to ask all of you to stick with me. the panel's staying around. we'll take a deeper dive coming up in policing in america. we know the other names here. we are talking about michael brown. but there was eric gardner, philando castile, tamir rice. so many more. things in common -- all killed at hands of the police and no criminal convictions for their death. high bar that comes to trying and charging the men and women in blue. >> we need justice for our sons. >> yes. what's with him?

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now is the time for healing. now is the time for peace and calm on the streets of ferguson. now is the time for an open and transparent process to see that justice is done. and i've asked that the attorney general and the u.s. attorney on the scene continue to work with local officials to move that process forward. >> time capsule there with president obama from three years ago calling for healing in the wake of that deadly police shooting in ferguson. the death of michael brown. welcome back to our special report, "ferguson, three years later." i want to bring back our panel

into the consideration. carol and joe and paul remain on set. justin is here. mark claxton is in the monitor as well. we know that there have been a lot of different reports in the deaths of people around this country, men and women alike. but here are some of the most publicized cases where we've had black men dying at the hands of police and no convictions in this. the fact that thousands of fatal police shootings every year, we have one study showing that only 80 officers were charged in this. only 28 were convicted of any crime and that five were convicted of murder. but four of those were later overturned on appeal. justin, why is it so difficult for a family that's lost a loved one to the hands of deadly police force to get an indictment of that officer and see it go to trial? >> well, there's a legal answer and there's an answer that's

really keeping it real. so the legal answer is that we have a set of legal standards in states across the country that make it almost impossible to convict a police officer for the use of force. paul details it brilliantly in his new book. and the real answer is that we have a police cal culture and a democracy that has never properly valued black lives. now before this segment, you showed a clip of mike brown's parents and i had the honor of going to the united nations with them in 2014 and it was very clear that the united nations recommends a different standard that recommends, for example, the mandatory use of less force than deadly force when trying to defuse a situation, for example. there are rules out there that can allow for the saving of human lives. but we have a political culture if the united states that just doesn't think it is a big deal

when it comes to policing black communities and there are many deep political, philosophical and racist reasons for that belief. and it is in the dna of our culture and it is something that the black lives matter's movement has tried to address over the last three years. we haven't gotten there yet, but my hope is, just like after three years after selma, we didn't know yet that there was going to be the turning point in our culture in terms of voting rights. we're hoping that even though we can't guarantee it now, three years after ferguson, maybe 50 years from now we'll see ferguson as as turning point in our fight to create racial justice in policing. >> we know that so many of us, we make race-based assumptions in this country. it's baked in to our dna of how we're raised, what we see on tv, how we interact with others and we do put a lot of faith in the federal government and our local and state governments. so many people thought under barack obama maybe we would see

deeper, lasting changes. but you wanted to make a point before about what mark was saying and state and local governments and the effect that they have on their people when it comes to the patterns that are demonstrated by the police force in their communities. what did you want to say? >> one thing i want to say, as a result of michael brown, trayvon martin and all of these incidents, what we developed at john jay college of criminal justice, you understand the foundation of this is trust. we also understand that we need procedural justice which means that people need to think that the system is fair and equitable. there is implicit bias in all of us. we all have it. but there are ways to work around that. what the building community trust initiative at john jay is doing is helping police departments understand what that implicit bias is and how to work around it so it doesn't influence the behavior and decisions. and the third prong of it is racial reconciliation. what we've done at john jay is

we are working with six jurisdictions, six police departments across the country, to figure out how we can make improvements. i think the key thing is how do we use these tragedies to figure out where there are opportunities to improve. that's what justin was talking about. i think we do have an opportunity in this country to make improvements, to learn from these tough lessons about how do we move forward. >> do you think we've taken advantage? obviously tragedy is going to happen in this country, unfortunately. and there are going to be some cops who panic in certain situations. there might be folks that do the wrong thing in certain situations, against a rookie or someone who's not having a good moment. but because they have a gun, they have the upper hand. and also the belief when they get to fill out the report over the person that is now lying there silent. what advantages do we have that we've missed in these series of deadly police force deaths that

we've kind of missed the ball on, where we could have made progress, to karol's point? >> one thing i was hoping for is we'd see better recruitment, selection and training. that's really the key. you want to try to weed out certain people before they get to that point. unfortunately, police departments when you already have them already hired you have to deal with the problems you already have and you have to deal with them. supervision then plays a big deal. then when you've had something wrong you've got to discipline them. in many of these departments we've seen where they didn't even have a tracking system to find out if this officer was involved in other use of force issues. we saw it in chicago and even in baltimore. when you read these consent decrees you kind of scratch your head and say how come it's taken an incident like this, whether freddie gray or tamir rice. people have studied this. they've never discovered this

before? >> they're giving a lot of daylight to real issues as opposed to turning a blind eye. to what justin was saying, a discount to people of color in this country. >> thomas, the police are on track to kill 1,000 people this year which is pretty much the same number that it's been last year and the year before. so the fact is we don't need to talk about reform. we need to talk about transformation. i talk about some common sense things we could do right now, measures like having more women officers, more college educated officers. those police are more like the guardians who police officers need to be and not like the warriors that they are, many of them are, now. when i was a prosecutor it felt like my job was to lock up young black men. prosecutors get those cases from police officers. so we need to think about transforming our entire criminal justice system. it is not just about unarmed african-american men. it is about stop and frisk. for a lot of black men that's the government.

most black men haven't been shot by the police. i don't know a young black man that has not been stopped and frisked. >> again, the conversations that so many families of color have to have with their kids about what happens if you're behind the wheel after you get your driver's license, how you are supposed to act when you get pulled over. >> about how to stay safe from the very people that are supposed to be protecting you. when communities don't have confidence in the police officers, that's what makes you rise up in the street. we look at all the major uprising, detroit 50 years ago, ferguson three years ago, it is all because ever something police have done to a black men. >> great to have you all with us. really appreciate it. a great conversation that we should have more often than on anniversaries like this one. but we will continue with this special taking a look at ferguson three years later. we'll take you back to that city for a look at whether businesses have recovered from the riots. back in a moment.

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in our anger we have to make sure that we don't burn down our own house, we don't go down there and vandalize our own building. we can stand on the sidewalk and talk about our issue and what we want and what we need in a conversation that needs to happen and we can make that happen. what i don't want is us to go down and burn our own neighborhood. that does not prove a point or solve issues. that hurts this community and that's what i don't want. >> captain ron johnson of the missouri highway patrol who in august of 2014 was brought in to try to calm tensions in the wake of the riots following the police slooti ingshooting of 18 michael brown. as we continue our look at ferguson three years later we want to examine businesses hard hit by the riot, some torched, others looted after tens of millions of dollars have been pumped into that city, have things gotten better? we'll find out. you should be serving your country.

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when we built this building, we said this is the first time in 99 years that we have ever built a building from the ground up. so we are not going to make the mistake that other people have made. we are going to be purposeful about intentionally using this facility as a showcase of what african-american-owned businesses can do. we have over 75% african-american companies built this building. >> there we have michael mcmillan, president of the urban league of metropolitan st. louis opening the new community empowerment center in ferguson last month. it is going to showcase african-american-owned businesses, but its symbolism is just as powerful. this was built on the very site of the quick trip. that was the gas station that was looted and burned to the ground. later became the main staging area for protesters following

michael brown's death and protests. now in the new $3 million center it is going to promote ferguson's resurgence. msnbc trafrveled there to find t how businesses are faring. >> reporter: it's been three years since protesters poured into the streets of ferguson. small businesses suffered the brunt of the damage and were left to pick up the pieces. >> ferguson kind of got this negative stigma behind its name. no different than saying like columbine. people are afraid to come out here and eat. so we struggled very hard. >> reporter: kathy jenkins owns a restaurant downtown. for some, it is the heart of the city. well, how was everything, my good people? >> wonderful! >> how has business changed from three years ago? >> three yearswonderful. >> reporter: how has this changed? >> three years ago, i had three breakfast menu and i open at 8:00 and close at 10:00 p.m. >> reporter: more than $65 million in grant donations

and loans have been spent to rebuild ferguson so far according to the st. louis business journal. >> it is not being spread equally and evenly and not for all of ferguson. >> reporter: the area that's been the slowest to recover. is west avenue nye where the bulk of the protests took place. >> we did everything we could, survive, it did not happen for us. >> reporter: when your business closed until today, from three years later, do you see a difference in ferguson? >> i get so emotional because we invested so much in this business and three years later, we are feeling the effects of this situation. >> reporter: driving through ferguson today, you still see signs of the after math, boarding up businesses, you also see people out and about and new

businesses, a city that's revitalizing, a different ferguson. >> reporter: the gas station that was burned down, now a new opening center and last year, starbucks made its way here. >> it will encourage other businesses coming in. for kathy, the growing lunch crowd ais a testament to survival. >> we are the first city of change of three years after. >> reporter: the ferguson store front tells the story to a difficult road to recovery. our marianna. great to have you all with us. >> marianna, you were there on the ground. it seems like this is a city in

rehab and trying to flex all muscles. >> that's right, going back and talking to some of the same business owners. you gate senet a sense that fer survived and revitalizing but still struggling. there is no doubt of small business owners pay a high price. a lot of promises have been made but promises don't pay expenses. a lot of money invested, they were asked to taken out loans. how will we take out loans if we were not making money. it is still, you know, struggling and you see the newly opened jobs center. you see the starbucks but there are so many, you know, gaps to be filled along these roads. they are holding their breaths and they tell you there is a sense of urgency.

a sense that t, thomas, that ferguson cannot wait for another three years. >> it is been a slow walk until now. council member bell, let me ask you this, more than $60 million have been poured into ferguson. we hear that there is still the stigma that lies in ferguson right now. what it means to be there and how safe do people feel? do you think the money, $60 million have been well spent over the last three years? >> reporter: i know kathy and she's a friend of mine. they are one of many examples of small business owners who are struggling to get back on their feet. it is important sometimes when we think of businesses, well, they have plenty of money and do this and that. a lot of these are just single, you know, couples and single and individuals who are trying to make a living and living with check to check and week to week.

that's important for people to remember. >> you are standing right now in the site of where quik trip was. now, this is a complete symbol of something new for the future of ferguson. i want to play for everybody of what the new empowerment center for them and what it means. >> the development of the community center, i don't feel like they reached out to the community to see what they wanted. not to say that the urban league is not going to be a good resource buts the community itself needed a convenience store to replace the quick trip that was burnt down. >> let me ask you about that. it is a big reaction and there is not an emotional connection to what the empowerment center means as opposed to what the convenient store meant for this section of town. how do you reverse that sentiment? >> with all due respect to the person that you interviewed, i

had an opportunity to work with the urban league as well as mike mcmillan, they have done a lot and i have seen them, i have worked with them as they go out to community and neighborhoods and find out what the community needs. what we heard of over and over and access to jobs, programs that'll be housed out of the empowerment center, the university of missouri, extension, my good friend, duane james, works with that and salvation army. those are the things that go into the building. it is significant that from the rocks ands the rubble that came from the particular location. >> larry, the folks there. friends of michael brown will be about 21 or 23 years old, how are they?

>> they would agree with the woman that's speaking. the plan for urban league building were already in process before the end of 2014. they were plotting to put something out. they were not reaching out to the community and asking what they need. jobs are a huge problem. you have to think of transportation and there are not huge grocery stores in the neighborhood. there is one across the street and we have target. there was a starbucks in ferguson before 2014 and they closed. it is because people who were not reaching out to the community. >> it is a city that we'll keep an eye on. thanks so much. that completes our coverage of ferguson, three years later. "meet the press" is next.

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this sunday, another tumultuous week in washington. >> anthony wants

anthony wants general kelly to be able to operate fully with a clean slate. >> congress gets nothing done. the russian investigation expands again, this time include as grand jury and president trump continues to call it a hoax. >> the russian story is fabricati fabrication, it is just an excuse for the greatest loss of history in american politics. >> it