and where do we go from here? he's still president. he is not fit to be president, but he is still president. and how does this get better and how does it not get worse? and that's kind of, i think, on all of us maybe, on all the people around him, but mostly on him. >> wise final words. my thanks to you. that does it for our hour. i'm nicole wallace. "mtp daily" starts right now. >> hi, nicole. thanks fork making me swallow a little bit harder, gene, with that final comment. true words for sure. if it's wednesday, the republican party has a choice to make. tonight, the search for moral authority. after the president's two sides conflagration, will republicans continue to allow the president to define their party? >> i stand with the president, and i stand by those words. >> plus, going out of business.

the president zols his business advisory councils after an exoh did you say of ceos. is president trump too toxic for corporate america? >> and confronting the challenges of dealing with hundreds of confederate monuments still standing in public spaces throughout the country. this is "mtp daily" and it starts right now. well, good evening. i'm chuck todd here at headquarters in new york city. folks, for all the republicans who criticize the president for missing the moment on charltszville, this is arguably their moment and frankly the rest of the republican party seems paralyzed by it. they are coming to grips that mr. trump and his nationalist views aren't just a stain on the party. they're becoming a tattoo. white supremacists and nationalists are cheering what the president said yesterday. some seem to be bridge with hope

that eldeliver their vision of white ethno state. >> i mean, you got visibly excited. >> yes. that is an honest man saying what he believes in his heart. i think that he will encourage fair-minded, deep thinking people to realize that separation is the only way we can achieve racial goals. >> do you feel that under the trump administration more and more people are joining your movement? >> no doubts. our movement is winning. our movement is growing. >> look, nobody is going to sit here and wants to assume that all republicans secretly believe ha the president said mam that the folks marching with the kkk this weekend weren't much different than the folks marching against them. we shouldn't fool ourselves that the president is the only one that he believes what he said. how many others are there? it looks like we are watching a republican party that's largely paralyzed because it's not quite sure it knows the answer.

vice president pens said today he stands by the president and stands by his words. they did stop short of denouncing him. former presidents bush 41 and bush 43 put out a joint statement that basically did the same thing. the chair of the rnc said there's no place in the republican party to defend racism and bigotry but she did not say there's no place in the party for mr. trump. after he defended the folks who were marching with the racists and the bigots. we're being inundated with paper statements and tweets. none of them come close to anything resembling an ultimatum for this president. even some of the president's most vocal republican critics aren't ready to pull their support. >> he's got to fix this and republicans have to speak out. plain and simple. who cares what party you're in. >> would you be willing to be the guy who gsz around to republican leaders and said this is our moment.

we will tell this president we no longer support him, period? >> well, matt, look, he's our president. okay? you're not going to turn your back on the president. you're going to speak clearly and bluntly and say get your act together. >> but i'll tell you, how on earth is the party going to confront this crisis if it's unwilling to stand up against the person who arguably any gated it. we invited every single republican senator on this program tonight, all 52. we asked roughly a dozen house republicans including a bunch of committee chairs and we asked a half-dozen officials and none of them agreed to discuss this issue with us today. so who is going to step up? the president has lost his moral authority for now and in the process he's tried to destroy or discredit everyone else's. have all of our elites lost their moral authority or are they afraid to find out what the answer might be yes. let's bring in our chief white house correspondent hallly jackson. how is the president handling

the incoming now of criticism which is now exponential? however much criticism he thought he was getting yesterday that sparked his angry press conference, it's like times ten. >> reporter: what we've seen in this administration, chuck, and i think what we're seeing now is a president for whom incoming has not been a deterrent for certain times of actions or words. so when you talk about what's happening with the president today, with his aids inside his west wing,ic tell you based on conversations today the president feels according to folks who are knowledgeable about this, that essentially relitigate this, explained his comments on saturday, that he -- i don't want to use the phrase got something off his chest but said what he wanted to say. as one person phrased it to mel, remember, he brought out that statement. he read the statement that he read on saturday, and as one person said only one person puts a statement inside the president's pocket and that's

the president. so he came down that elevator with that statement ready to go, ready to read it, ready to kind of rumble with reporters. let me tell you this when you talk about people standing up, i want to tell you what's happening in inside this hotel behind me. cabinet secretary david shul ken is here to talk about this bill signing that happened over at bedminster with the president. as you are probably aware secretary shulkin is a jewish member of the president's administration and is talking about this. our producer inside is he is saying he was with the president on saturday, the secretary says. he says that history teaches us we have to stand up to bigotry and hatred. he said he's speaking out as a jewish american in learning history he knows that staying silent on these issues is simply not acceptable. i've got to tell you, that's some of the strongest words that we have heard yet from somebody at least on the record from somebody who is a member of the president's administration. contrast that with transportation secretary elaine chow who was asked repeatedly about the president's comments

right after he made them and instead continued to pivot to infrastructure. >> fill me in more on what the secretary said. was it about the incident itself or the president's handling of it. >> et cetera that i good question. and i'm looking again at text messages that producer monica alba is sending from inside that room. it's my understanding that this press conference, which is on camera and on the record, is being dominated by this. that is what everybody is talking about. the president's response and the incident on saturday. so i think what you are seeing is david shulkin sort of coming out now and obviously condemning what happened on saturday. and i think there's only one way to read it. staying silent on these issues is simple am not acceptable. so i'm going to run back in and if you want i'll pop back out for you. >> you've got it. that's good stuff. thanks very much. joining me now is nbc news tom brokaw. you know, gentlemen, no offense but we didn't want to lead with you two today. we were looking for somebody to

address this issue of -- two issues. who has the moral authority in the republican party and who has the moral authority in the country right now. so, tom, you know, you're a grand pooh ba. i'm going to start with you. >> well, i think it's very hard to say right now because we are playing in uncharted waters. we have been ever since the election of donald trump. there's been a sight mick shift. i guess i'm mixing my metaphors from earthquakes to water, but there has been a size mick shift in the american political structure when someone like donald trump can get elected president and this is being described as another defining moment. we've had one almost every week since he has been in office. so at this point with donald trump, it's very hard to know within the republican party, which he stands back from, who has moral authority because so much of how the public perceives moral authority is also

shifting, quite honestly. they believe that no one within the belt way has moral authority. they elected donald trump hoping that he would shake up the system. well, he's shaken up something. the system still is standing, however. >> michael, i mean, look, what historical precedent is there? where are you looking back to? what are you anchoring yourself in historically as we're watching this unfold? >> well,up, chuck, for moral authority, tom is absolutely right. you know, the founders devised this system where if the president isn't doing the right thing, we've got congress and the courts. and you had two statements from paul ryan, mitch mcconnell, very polite and bluntless. i guess they were criticizing but the president said, but if you did not know ma the context was, you wouldn't have known that and that's totally out of american history. tom knows, he's covered this. 1960s, you know, mike manls field the democratic leader of the senate said in public to

lyndon johnson i object to the way that you're running the war in vietnam. 1970s, house and senate leaders, republicans criticized richard nixon in public. they went to him and said you go on with this, you're going to destroy yourself, you're going to destroy our republican party. i do not understand why ryan and mcconnell are so polite. >> tom, since you're in mike manslaughter feel's home state, it's always fun to get that little trivia in there, i guess -- my explanation for why republicans aren't standing up is i think they fear that the voters might be with trump. >> well, i think in the republican party they still are as you probably remember, i was in powell, wyoming just a week ago. that was a community that won 707% for trump and there was a fair amount of damage done by the time i got there, but they were still for him. guess who they were not for? all of us. they believe that this is a liberal cabal directed by the news media in this p country and

a number of them are pretty happy with the way he is standing up to what they see rl institutions and people who are no longer supporting their ideals and what they want. but of course that's wyoming. a very republican state. i'm more interested in what's going to happen in ma comb county michigan, which was a big surprise for donald trump carrying that. we'll see what happens in the industrial midwest. >>up, michael, i guess i go back to i'm still trying to figure out, he's in year one of his presidency. we've had presidents lose their moral authority over time. >> sure. >> richard nixon at some point. there were pockets, i think, when bill clinton didn't have that authority at different times during that crisis. we've never had any in year one and that's what makes this -- the issue itself is jarring, but the fact that we may have this presidency that's paralyzed politically, if you will, this early. >> that's a real problem. and you're absolutely right,

chuck. it is something that we have not seen. and, you know, you would have thought that one thing that everyone could agree was wrong was the statement that donald trump made yesterday. you know, it was an easy thing for senators and others to criticize. and tom is right about people are terrified about the trump voter, but, you know, john kennedy wrote a book called profiles in courage about senators who were willing to say and do something that was unpopular but good for their country. and people aren't going to come around to the idea that to have a president in office saying the things that donald trump said about those nazis and white supremacists, that was way out of line. and if no one bells the cap, i don't understand how our system works. >> tom, you've had these discussions with these folks off the record. i've had discussions with some of these folks off the record. they are afraid to go on the record. >> well, they've never seen anybody quite like donald trump, because i remember when he met

with the senate leadership midsummer a year ago when he was beginning to look like he was -- well, in fact, he was going to be the nominee. and you had the republican senator leadership there. they said to him after his initial presentation, we have some issues we'd like to talk to you about. he said i'm not interested in issues. i put on a show. you guys don't get it. and that for them, and i think for the rest of the country, was an indication of what we're seeing right now. he has a completely different navigation alchart, and so far it's worked for him. so, you know, as we've gone through the donald trump saga from are the beginning of his announcement to this point, he's always managed to somehow bounce back because of that core group. but the core group now is down into, what, its lower 30s at this point. and my guess is he'll say that's fake news. >> right. ic, michael, i'll go back to where we started this conversation. if the president doesn't have the moral authority to sort of help us get through this, heal us a little bit, right, if

that's not, who do you turn to? >> well, the idea of the founders was that, thank god, we not have a system that is so dependent on a president that otherwise it can't function if u a president who is not good. and you have to look to the courts. you have to look to the congress. and you also have to look at american citizens to say, you know, whoa, what was said yesterday was not right, and if we normalize this, you know, this could be the beginning of the end of democracy. >> tom, is it corporate america that is speaking for the country? >> well, i think corporate america obviously has its interests in mind when you see the head of walmart resigning from the president's commission and other people who are customer dependent. >> yep. >> they can't afford to in some way violate the trust that they have with their base. so i think that's what a lot of that comes down to. they just can't defend what he had to say, not only to their corporate board but to the people that they rely on for

keeping their company profitable. >> well, tom brokaw, michael ves has. you may not have been who ipd to lead the show with, but not bad. we'll take it. thank you very much. coming up, we teased it a little bit out of business. president trump disband his business counsel sills just before they could disband themselves. has the president become too toxic for america's business leaders? hey dad, come meet the . the new guy? what new guy? i hired some help. he really knows his wine. this is the new guy? hello, my name is watson. you know wine, huh? i know that you should check vineyard block 12. block 12? my analysis of satellite imagery shows it would benefit from decreased irrigation. i was wondering about that. easy boy. nice doggy. what do you think? not bad. what do you think? and life's beautiful moments.ns get between you flonase outperforms the #1 non-drowsy allergy pill.

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stem and at their core are based and racism and bigotry. that's unacceptable. that's an unamerican value, and when he gave that defense of them and sort of put a pox on everybody's house, it became too much for us to be associated with that. >> and then the president's strategic and policy forum went public with the announcement that they were disbanding today. the president declared rather than putting pressure on the business people of the manufacturing council and strategy and policy forum, i am ending both. thank you all. that came despite the president boasting yesterday that, quote, for every ceo that drops out i have many to take their place. business leaders seem to be -- sending a very loud signal that after what's happened with charlottesville associating with president trump is not good for business. we'll have more on that in 60 seconds.

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jim cramer, host of mad money on cnbc. cramer, it seems like a basic message is being sent. these business ceos think it's bad for their bottom line to be associated with the president. is this a consumer driven decision? is this a perception decision? what's driving all of these rez nations? >> all right. i think that first thank you for having me on, chuck. i would say that in some cases it is a different stakeholder and there will be a stakeholder that are the employees that really are very upset about this. some shareholders, absolutely some customers. but chuck, i've got to tell you in my speaking to many of the ceos who have resigned, and i have good relationships with almost all of them, they hate what happened here. they personally hate it. so i mean, this is -- most of these guys i deal with it's on the earnings per share, sales, on how the markets are doing. these are people who are very upset as americans. so it's easy to say that it's just the bottom line, but i

didn't hear anyone defend this guy. not although all. it's very chilled discussions here. these are discussions about lincoln and about fdr and about martin luther king. that's what's coming up, not the shareholders and want the stock price. >> what does it say about -- i mean, i guess my concern now is does this make the ceos think you know what? i'm not going to touch anything political right now. is this going to be a start of serving of business and the political world a little bit for some time because of this fear -- they fear polar zplags is just bad for business? >> i think that actually there's man who could change that. i think president trump could say you know what? this is an opportunity to try to figure out how we can change the laws so those who want to promote violence with hate talk are banned and these people would actually come back together because that's what they care about. i don't think they'll withdraw. i think that in each case what we have to recognize is they don't really talk that much. i mean, in this particular --

they have these councils and some of them are friends, but for the most part they want what's god for the country, just that what they think is good for the country is different from the president. i don't think they're going to go away, chuck. i really don't. we've seen some people step up here and say some things we didn't think they'd ever say. >> i'm curious. there has been this bull market on the idea of some deregulation and what trump policies are going to do. do you think all of this has an impact on that or that the ceos go i'm not going to lobby for tax reform? how much of an impact does all of this have on what they're trying to get out of congress? >> well, i think a lot of people, a lot of ceos have given up but there are other ceos who recognize we still have gather cone. gather cone rel understands wanted steve mnuchin really understands. if you see them leave, then this man is an island. >> all right. jim cramer. i'm going to leave it there. i'll have my panel take over.

you have a show in 45 minutes. good to see you, cramer. let me bring in the panel. michael steele, casey hunt, jonathan alter. mr. steele, i'll give you first words here. watching this, the ceos running away from the republican party, it is a little weird. hey, don't chalk this up to bottom line stuff. they don't want this to be seen as a business decision. they want to see this as eye moral decision. >> i think that's an excellent point because you stop and think about what these gentlemen had to give up to take the jobs that they've taken inside the administration and what these individuals had to give up potentially or sort of set to the side to do this work on the commission. in other words, they're not focusing on the day to day of the business. they're really part of something bigger and better for the country and so they took it seriously. they took it honorably and they saw the service to the country and to the administration.

and they see now what the president has done in turning basically his back on this -- on what they believe are important values for the country. they don't want to be a part of that and it is personal for them in that sense of the it's not a bottom line thing absolutely. >> casey, is there -- how is capitol hill republicans reacting to the enact that it looks like the ceos are more willing to. >> potentially taking stronger action. >> to speak out on the president than they are? >> look, i think that this is something where the republicans on capitol hill really want to be able to have it both ways and they were hoping they could wait this out and attempt to keep the government on track. i mean, obviously the president has a handful of very strong personal supporters in congress. that's always going to be true. but it's very clear that the leadership are simply trying to keep their heads down, get their agenda passed and frankly, i think it's getting to the point where there are so million things on the list, and this one, you know, we've argued about what will finally, finally

cross that red line. initially i thought we were going to cross that red line and then over the course of the day it became clear that nobody really wants to go after the president by name. >> what do you make of that john? >> i think they're gutless. polarization has been a negative word, but now we're in an era of pat on theic polarization. it's a question of which side are you on? are you on the side of a toxic president who enables neo-nazis and white supremacists or are you on the side of traditional american values, real american values of tolerance and kindness and respect? and so every politician ultimately is going to have to make a decision about whether they can support, continue to support this man. and it's up to those who are resisting him to axe wait the choice, to put a lot of pressure on these members to say do you want president trump or

president pence? because there's now a choice. if we remove him, you get somebody else. >> what's interesting, listen to this. this is a report from axios, jonathan swan over at axios. but he's got an interesting take on steve bannon. while gather cone was fuj steve bannon was excitedel telling friends and associate that, quote, the globalists were in a mass freak out. it says here bannon does not see it as a low point of his presidency. he says it as a defining moment where trump decided to fully abandon the globalists and side with, quote, his people. it does seem as if in some ways it's a perverse of what you just put out this, jonathan it's a time for choosing and steve bannon says, yes, i agree with you, jonathan. >> let's go back to that time during the inaugural celebrations where steve bannon and reince priebus was before that crowd and steve bannon was asked about what this administration's priorities were, and what was number three?

deconstruction of the administrative state. that was that moment. >> burn it down. >> burn it down. that was the moment for steve bannon. and looking at what this president did, because remember, look at the arc, from saturday to monday, the president didn't want to do what he did on saturday. then he came out -- he did what he wanted to do on saturday. monday he did what -- didn't do what -- >> he did what he was told. >> and then finally yesterday it was like you know, screw it. i'm who i am. that's it. i am who i am. >> ars nisz in the white house. we've never had burn it down in the white house. >> i'm trying to figure out how we get outed of this. how does this end? >> is it a moment that ends or something bigger, right. and i remember the last time i felt this way on a trump issue was of the kahn controversy when as a candidate he couldn't stop criticizing a gold star father and he kept going back to it. and literally it was spiraling -- the party was praldsed then.

>> yep. >> and then -- but he had hillary clinton on the other side. he doesn't have that anymore. >> well, and it goes back to your question of what ultimately are republicans in washington going to do. and i think, look, there is a narrative paradigm shift going on here. i think that jonathan hit on it a little bit. when i talk to democrats they start to say we don't understand how any of these members of the republican party can possibly continue to try and side with the president even though they, you know, claim that they want to be able to work with us, that, you know, the both cider criticism extends to the entire republican party. and the reality for these republican leaders is that they are not looking over at moderate democrats and saying, hey, guys, let's form an alliance because we really think that the president is a potential fundamental threat to the state of our democracy and i would argue that there are some republicans out there essential privately that express those kinds of concerns. but we are not yet at the point where it's enough to break what is the traditional structure in washington and actually force those kinds of conversations.

i have no idea how we get there if this doesn't do it. >> i don't know how this ends. >> but it's a character test for all of them. you know, people say what would i done if i had been in nazi germany, what would i have done if i had been in the south during the civil rights movement? would i have done the right thing? now we're in a similar situation. people have to look in the mirror and ask themselves are you going to do the right thing. >> everybody has their own line. and i do think you have to let everybody have their own line. coming up next, what we know about those hate groups in the u.s., most of them on the right and then the emerging groups on the left that are aiming to confront those hostile folks on the right. we'll be right back. has been excellent. they always refer to me as master sergeant. they really appreciate the military family, and it really shows. we've got auto insurance, homeowners insurance. had an accident with a vehicle, i actually called usaa before we called the police. usaa was there hands-on very quick very prompt. i feel like we're being handled as people that actually have a genuine need. we're the webber family and we are

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still ahead, the history behind the nation's controversial confederate monuments. when were they put up? and how they might end upcoming down. but first here is hampton pearson. >> thanks, chuck. we had stocks closing higher but the ceo backlash to president trump did put a cap on those gains. the dow rising by 25 points. the s&p up 3. the nasdaq adding 12 points. members of the federal reserve are divided over when to raise interest rates. according to the minutes of the fed's july meeting. fee i can't tell chrysler is parng with bmw to develop auto mouse driving teng nothing. which is testing an oonl mouse model. that's it from cnbc first in

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you had people, and i'm not talking about the neo-nazis and the white nationalists because they should be condemned totally, but you had many people in that group other than neo-nazis and white nationalists. what about the alt-left they came charging at the as you say the alt-right, do they have any semblance of guilt? >> welcome back. as we've noted, there has been much discussion over president trump blaming, quote, both sides for the violence in charlottesville. sadly those are groups whose names and hateful ideologies are fairly well-known. what was the other side in well, some of those left wing activists belong to an anti-fascist movement known as antifa which advocates confronting white supremacism sometimes with force. joining me now are richard cowan and dort mouth university electric tearer mark bra. he's the author of the upcoming

book antifa the anti-fascist handbook. gentlemen, i kind of want to have parallel conversations with you. mark, with you on antifa and richard with you on what did the right wing hate groups hear yesterday. so richard, let me start with you before i get to antifa. what did they hear when the president said what he said yesterday? what did the kkk hear, these new alt-right groups, whatever you want to call them. >> they've heard the same tune that the president has been singing since saturday. they love it. they think the president is not condemning them, that he is defending them, he's saying, look, there are bad guys on the other side. the other people who the media, chuck todd is criticizing, they're no worse. he's really -- >> have you seen, other than their statements, have you seen new activity? is there evidence that somehow this is a growing movement or is it a loud movement that suddenly we're giving a microphone to.

>> two things i would say. first, trump has tremendously energized the white supremacist group in the country. there has never been a candidate in recent memory who has been endorsed by the kkk. on the other hand after charlottesville we've seen people back away because they don't want to be associated with death and destruction. it's going to continue because trump has really pumped a lot of life into it. >> back away, who backs away? are there sort of milder white supremacist groups. >> sometimes they're called the although light. backed away from the demonstration in boston. someone who was planning some anti-google demonstration has said i don't want to do it because i don't want to be associated with charlottesville. so we're seeing some people are backing away. on the other hand, some people are emboldened by this and are itching for a fight in boston, in san francisco. i think it's going to be ugly. >> well, speaking of that fight, let's go to that issue there. mark bra, you are writing this

book antifa, the anti-fascist handbook. explain this movement and its roots. >> right. right. so anti-fascism goes back to the beginning of the 20th century when left it's of all stripes fought back against mousse lean and hit her. it really rebranded itself, grew again in all the european countries and the united states and so the modern antifa movement grows out of the 70s and 80s in great britain and germany when a lot of immigrants, when a lot of leftists, punk rockers had to physically defend themselves from neo nazi attacks. and that's where it grew and that's where we can trace its lynn age from today. the main perspective of antifa is essentially that rather than simply waiting for the threat to materialize, you stop it from the beginning. you say no platform for fasism and that's what we're seeing

with the attempts in charlottesville and elsewhere. >> i'm curious, first of all, are you an advocate of this sort of confrontation? >> yes, i am. yes. >> what do you say to those that are concerned that, hey, you're handing -- you're allowing this -- these white supremacists to claim victim hood here? what do you say to that criticism since the president is trying to essentially create a false equivalency here? >> well, i think there's two parts of it. one is how does -- how do far right movements grow. i say they grow by becoming normalized, by not being confronted, by being able to present themselves as family friendly and respectablement so part of the reason why the alt-right called themselves alt-right is to present that mainstream image. and the opposition that people showed in charlottesville really marched and tainted that. so i think that by showing up and confronting it, it prevents the ability of being able to be presented as mainstream and connect to that, i think, really

you need to be able to prevent them from being able to organize. people who are involved in politics know that for movements to expand, they need to be able to organize and grow, and if you stop that, it prevents it. historically we can see that naziism and fascism he feels not stopped by polite dialogue and reasoned debate. it had to be stopped by force and unfortunately self-defense is necessitated in the context that we're seeing today. >> mark, you didn't see this, but richard was shaking his head no. why do you say that is not the right way to confront -- >> i think fighting fire with fire under the circumstances is going to lead to what we saw in charlottesville. i look at how the cler i didn't reacted to the alt-right there. when i looked at how many of the student groups reacted to the alt-right, we don't need the antifa to come and make a spectacle out of it, to embolden these people. they love it. that's why they came with helmets on and shields, because they want to portray themselves as martyrs. they want to portray the white race as being elm battled. the idea that we want to

encourage the aept fa to come with clubs, you know, in all due respect it seems crazy to me. >> but address mark's other point here. well, mark, you go ahead. i was going to get him to respond to your other point which is the historical aspect of fascism has only been defeated with violence. i assume these the argue um you'd make, right, mark? >> sure, if our other guests wants to respond, go ahead. >> i guess what i would say is we have the police, we have law enforcement, and if, you know, if the neo-nazis can violentel, we can depend upon them to shut them down. these people have a right to espouse their ideas. no one -- hate is not illegal in this country. hurting people is illegal, and we have first amendment rights and we can't skel chchlt them by having people show up at rallies with clubs. >> mark, i'll go ahead and give you the last word. >> so, i mean, if no one is praising the vie march republican for giving nazis the

right to assemble. we're looking back and saying isn't it unfortunate that this threat was not taken seriously earlier and stamped out before millions of people could be killed. that's the historical argument that i make. and i'd rather have people i don't wanting them than sitting idling by. there are no great memoirs of people who sat idling by -- >> have you at all concerned about violence begets violence begets violence. >> self-defense is important. look at core nel west. he said that the anti-fascists defended them from being run over and attacked. so the notion that people are seeing the self-defense as being counter product you have is not entirely true and i think self-defense is important. fascism shows it is violence in-car nature it will come after us and we have to defend ourselves. >> you gentlemen have been great. i can't believe it's 2017 and we're having to have this conversation. that's what's amazing. >> unfortunately. >> thank you both for coming and sharing your views. we'll be right back.

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spaces were dedicated at that time to honor the confederacy. there was another busts from the 1920s to the 40s. nearly 140 confederate monuments and sites were built then. and then there was another spike that happened during the sooifl '60s. over 90 public spaces and monuments were dedicated or re-dedicated during that time. the panel is back. michael steele, kasie hunt, jonathan alter. does it matter when these m monuments were put up to be -- should that be part of this conversation? >> it can be part of it. if they were done as a way of resisting integration of raising the flag, you know, for racism, than that's different than if they were built, you know, at the time in the 1860s or something like that. so, yes. but these are complicated questions of history and should they be in museums? should there be no plaques on

them that put them in historical context? all of these questions should be worked at the local level in calm community discussions. they should not be toppled in the middle of the night by, you know, by people on one side of the debate. and they certainly shouldn't be the source of neo-nazi and white supremacist rallies. >> i thought it was interesting, the "national review" basically said it on sunday and they took a collective decision and said, if they are going to be magnets for wlhite supremacists, then maybe in public spaces they should go and they believe in museums, kasie? >> i think that's the we this debate is centering. the conversations, in many cases are around, okay, should we relocate these to a private museum or a private home, depending on the various options. in lexington, kentucky, right now, a place mitch mcconnell is paying very close attention to, they're going through this debate. there are some people arguing, well, why don't we just destroy them. the cost of relocating them would be so high for the government. and this is going to be something that congress is going to have to grapple, as well. i don't know if you've been over

to statutory hall recently or walked around, the old house of representatives chamber is filled with statues, many of whom are associated with the confederacy. and that would be a state-by-state issue. the monument in the district of columbia would have to be taken down as an act of congress. i don't think there is an end in sight to this. >> we are the only country that did this to honor a loser, you know? >> yeah, yeah. >> it has been odd to -- we all just grew up with it. of course, that's the way it was. we sort of honor all americans in wars, i guess. i'm trying to figure out how i was conditioned as a kid to -- you're just sort of like, yes, that is what that was about. that's what that was about. but it was all taught as history. >> yes, time and place. and that really matters here. when you go back and look at the graph you put up in those three spikes, the first was in the immediacy after the war, and of course, plessey versus ferguson, that whole decision. okay, now we can stamp our

claim. then as though veterans started to die, there was the commemoration for those men who served. less emphasis on what the war was about and more recognition of who they are. and then that third spike of 91 statues was in that period of time where the civil rights movement was grappling the country and there was sort of a pushback a little bit, sort of another remembrance. and i think the time and place argument does matter a lot. but here's the rub. i think when it all boils down, it matters what these symbols, what these images, what these plaques are being used for. when they become the rallying source that ferments anew the kind of ugliness that we've seen in charlottesville, that's it. it's got to go. >> it seems as if the local -- let the locals decide this, that it's -- it's where we went with the flag. >> yeah, and look what nikki haley did in south carolina. you know, she handled it really well. other people should take a lead

from her. and also, you can get a sense that the -- that the nation is sometimes arguing over symbols in a way that leads us into places we don't really want to go. so i was upset that trump changed the narrative from na neo-nazis and white supremacists to how we deal with statutorest. if he has more success in changing the subject, we have failed. >> i don't think anybody, also, is interested in denying that this history happened or that it exists. that's a quick, often, path down roads we don't want to explore. the point of -- there's a lot of value, and i think both sides see a lot of value in rememb remembering what happened and why it happened. i just think there's an interpretation on one side that clearly has crossed an enormous moral line. >> what'd you make of what larry hogan did today in your home

city of maryland? >> the mayor of baltimore, in the dead of night, had statues removed -- >> but mayor hogan is -- >> that's not vandals -- >> no. but larry had the statue of chief justice tany taken down, which i kind of appreciate, because i had to stare at it for four years. it was outside my lieutenant governor's office window, so when i looked down, there was the top of his head. but i support what the governor did. he doesn't want that to become the symbol we saw down in charlottesville. >> this is another moment, i'm rhymed of mitch landrieu's speech he made when he removed those statues in new orleans and his reaction afterward when he said that the blowback was so strong that he may not not have reconsidered, but that he was surprised by it. >> have the conversation with somebody who's not white. then it's a different conversation. >> absolutely. >> thank you. >> michael, kasie, jonathan.

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finally, tonight, in case you missed it, a political story that we barely have time for tonight. the appointed incumbent luther strange survived a ten-candidate field to make it to the republican runoff, but he wasn't the leading vote getter. he was bested by roy moore.

yes, that roy moore, if the name is familiar. congressman mo brooks, tea party guy, he came in third with 20%. but it's roy moore, the former alabama chief justice who was not just ousted once, but twice from the state's highest court for ethics violations, you can call him the favorite in this race to not just win the nomination, but potentially win the general. strange is now the underdog and as crazy as it seems, if roy moore is the nominee, alabama could be in play for the democrats. think of this. is alabama senate for donald trump what massachusetts senate was for barack obama in 2009 and 2010. "the beat with ari melber" starts now. today in charlottesville, thousands of mourn terse honored heather heyer. and thousands stood by donald trump and his white