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right now protesters are gathering to march in boston against the free speech rally scheduled for noon on boston common. rally organizers say it has nothing to do with what happened last week in charlottesville, when white supremacists shouted nazi slogans, physically attacked people and one of them allegedly killed in anti-racist counter protester. counter protesters in boston say they aren't backing down and are marching against hate speech and bigotry. heavy police presence is expected and we will keep an eye on that all morning. but first, to the latest news out of washington, d.c., or bedminster, as the case may be. steve bannon has left the white house, and returned to the extent he ever really left to b breitbart which he built into the self-proclaimed platform of the alt right. bannon was also the resident economic nationalist at the white house, the driving force behind efforts toe dismantle trade deals and launch an

economic war with china. bannon allies have called him the linchpin that connects trump to his base and the intellectual heart of the trump movement. so with him gone, what happens to trump now? joining me are sarah kinsior, former breitbart media consultant kurt bardella, former chief white house ethics lawyer for president george bush richard painter, and david corn of "mother jones." thank you for being here. kurt, to you first on what it means for not only bannon to have left but left the way he did. he walked over to breitbart.com and sort of walked into cheers and gave a big rah rah speech. what do you think it means to the white house he's no longer there? >> well, i think it means that you're going to see a lot more of steve bannon publicly than you have really to this point. lot of what's been happening in recent weeks and months is bannon under the radar, maybe leaking stuff or having people leak for him. he wasn't necessarily the public

face of it. now he's unshackled. he's liberated. can he do and operate however he wants. remember, this is not a person who is meant to serve at the pleasure of anybody. he ran breitbart like a dictator. he is a dictatorial type of figure so it makes sense it didn't work well when he had to report to a chief of staff and run his ideas by people before he could do them. he likes to operate freely. now can he and that's bad news for those remaining at the white house, bad news for congressional leadership, leaders like paul ryan, mitch mcconnell. it will make life a lot more difficult for the white house because now steve has no limitations, nothing holding him back. >> kurt, you know, you made the point that it's not clear that bannon ever really left. we were talking about this, never left breitbart which is an ethical question, whether he was still technically there. were you surprised he gave an interview to "the weekly standard" which he said "the trump presidency that we fought for and won is over" he said friday shortly after confirming his departure.

"we still have a huge movement but that presidency is over, there will be something else. and there will be all kinds of fights and there will be good days and bad days but that presidency is over." were you surprised he gave that kind of an interview? >> no, because i think in some ways he's also speaking like everyone to a constituency of one. he's reaching donald trump through his favorite vehicle the press and sending the message that the support that he had from breitbart, the cover that they'd run for trump whenever anything bad would go on, that that's in jeopardy right now, unless president trump adheres to the ideals and the rhetoric that got him elected in the first place. think bannon's fear is that with these "west wing democrats" surrounding trump, trump will try to moderate and move to the middle to try to achieve something and steve is sending out the message to donald trump if you do that, breitbart will be there, they will attack you and send a message to their base, to those crazy conservatives and homophobics and xenophobics, this isn't the guy we voted for.

he's been co-opted. i wouldn't be surprised if they look for a new candidate, a new person to try to rally around. >> richard painter, you've been calling for bannon and the other bannonites, other travelers to be swept out of the white house and to the point that kurt just made, the other thing that bannon told "i think they're going to try to moderate him, i think he'll sign a clean debt ceiling. his natural sendry, i think you saw it on charlottesville the default position is the position of his base that got him elected. i think you'll see a lot of constraints." do you concur people in the white house ma he is? >> well, if they're smart, they certainly will. they got to stop worry being 2020 and focus on saving the presidency. three things they need to do to save this presidency. first clean out all of the alt rights, he needs to be the arnold schwarzenegger of the republican party, be the terminator of the alt right.

he needs to have a personal conversion and renounce and repent for racism, for bigotry, and all the hatred he has's spoused thus far and that conversion better be faster than the road to damascus. he has to do it now. third, repudiate the so-called religious right, the fake christians who have dominated the republican party. if he makes it clear he repudiates them the democrats will be checkmated because they are not going to want mike pence if trump repudiates the phony christians and the religious right, embraces the true american values that traditionally have been in the republican party as well as the democratic party of inclusion and democracy. so if he does those three things, i think cosave this presidency, but right now, he's in serious trouble. he should stop worrying about the idiots on the far right and what they're going to do to him in 2020. make this a successful term and make sure that the extremists

are thrown out of the republican party. that includes all those people in the white house, that includes steve bannon, breitbart news, the racist platform they've been running, people like ann coulter, who run around attacking people. we need those people out of the republican party so we can govern and pass legislation to help americans get health care, protect the planet, and do what republicans and democrats traditionally wanted to do, to serve the american people. >> i see caved corn nodding his head. your thoughts? >> i love richard painter. you've been speaking truth to power from the republican side. all those things that you mentioned, it's not gone that happe gonna happen. it's a wish list. donald trump is 71, whatever, 72 years old now. he has been playing with racists for decades. he got to where he was as a birther. i think he suffers from certain personality issues. i don't think there's going to be any conversion. that's not going to happen. to me the interesting thing here

is whether bannon can actually mount the type of war or offensive that people think he can mount. he has a difficult task. it's not easy to attack the people working for a president, without attacking the president, and when you attack donald trump, you know what happens, and so i don't see how he sort of goes after people in the west wing or people that trump may be working with, or parts of trump agenda, without trump starting to treat him the way he treats everybody else, and that leads to a civil war within the republican party, and within donald trump's base. most of the people who voted for donald trump probably never heard of steve bannon at the time, so steve bannon is a disruptor. he's like the joker. he likes chaos, but at the same time that may not be good for the party, may not be good for the trump presidency, although may be good for steve bannon's pocketbook and for the mercers. >> he doesn't attack everybody,

david corn, white nationalists don't get attacked, putin doesn't get attacked. >> he tacks the people who question him or go after him so steve bannon can take a critical approach to the trump presidency, without being attacked back is a very, very difficult thing to see. >> i'm going to come back to kurt on whether or not were interest trmp has a here of steve bannon. jason on the question of where donald trump sort of is centering core is. because the idea if you take out bannon and sweep them out somehow trump would be a different person, i wonder if you agree that that is the case or whether you think the core of donald trump and the core of steve bannon are the same. >> you can pull aour all the ca on the candy apple. trump is still trump. he hired these people because they reflektded his values.

this isn't in any way legitimizing white nationalism. look at who the core advisers are now for this president. kellyanne conway is not a policy person, she's a pollster, where are the republicans. there aren't that many republicans anymore except for mike pence and mike is told when the meetings are late, and then on top of that, you don't really have any more economic nationalists. i think bannon is going to have an audience not just the far right but economic nationalists within the republican party who are like whoa is this guy. there's no one who speaks for us anymore in the president's inner circle. >> to that point, sarah, aside from the white nationalist aspects of steve bannon and what breitbart built these are the things he came in on that list. remember he had that wall of things he wanted to see donald trump do. trade penalties against china, ending multilateral trade agreements, decreasing legal and illegal immigration, massive

infrastructure spending, and higher taxes on the rich, which is an odd sort of mix of things for a supposed republican but they are this sort of grab bag of populist issues that attracted at east some of the people who support donald trump. in that stuff goes away, does donald trump lose almost his cult-like hold on his supporters? >> i think that stuff was never really there. i think a lot of what bannon and trump said was false populist. it was a pretext in order to cover xenophobic, white nationalist, anti-muslim policies. that's how they governed. steve bannon was there for six months. you can tell whether he believed sincerely in the policies, whether he cared for what they called the so-called forgotten people. he didn't. he's also a former goldman sachs guy this is not someone who cares about what regular people are going through. and neither is trump.

i don't think things will be economically more equal and as many pointed out this is still a white supremacist house. you still have nazis in the house, you have jeff sessions, long time antagonist against civil rights and you have policies that back up these ideas in practice. it is more dangerous and more harmful than having him in the white house where he is somewhat contained. >> does steve bannon believe in the economic populist ideas and b, is donald trump afraid of him? >> i think to soom degree steve believes in some of the economic policies, the idea that the america first side of things, the roll we have in trade and global economic community. i think there is consternation with trump and worry about what steve will do, part of the

reason why it took so long for him to get rid of steve in the first place. this is something he probably wanted to do for a while but kept pushing off and holding off because he didn't know how steve would react. there's a high possibility that steve will look to try to expand the breitbart empire, expand their media platforms. he oftentimes talked about wanting to go to war with fox news and build a platform he believes that fox moved too far to the middle, as hard as that is to believe and there's room to the right of fox to build something and they could very well end up being a vessel one day donald trump may be sooner than later joins them when he's not the president of the united states anymore. who knows what will happen over the next couple of weeks and months. there's a big investigation by the fbi hanging over donald trump and there's a likelihood steve could be building something that gives trump an out later on in the year. >> watch what happens with the mercer money. everybody needs to look up jane mayer profile on robert mercer and what he thinks in his head and the money he's putting

behind steve bannon. you will be back with us tonight at 7:00 p.m. thank you very much. during our special 7:00 p.m. show we're calling "the politics of hate" you'll learn more about all the topics we just talked about. coming up trump defends confederate statues but is the debate overshadowing a bigger problem? the reverend dr. william barr, it's bishop william barber will be here to discuss. i this time it's his turn. you have 4.3 minutes to yourself.

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. george washington was a slave owner. was george washington a slave owner? so will george washington now lose his status? are we going to take down -- excuse me, are we going to take down, are we going to take down statues to george washington?

how about thomas jefferson? what do you think of thomas jefferson? you like him? okay, good, are we going to take down the statue, because he was a major slave owner. are we going to take down his statue? >> so many hand gestures. after white supreme is and neo-nazis erupted in violence over the removal of a confederate statue in charlottesville donald trump tweeted his support for those beautiful monuments that someone characterized as symbols of oppression. our next guest says it's not about the statues but rather the statutes, the gop policies that harm people's lives. joining me to discuss is the reverend dr. william barber. rev barber, you have made an eloquent statement over the past week about what those statues that are up all over the country, the confederate statues mean. do you now believe that that debate is getting in the way of something more important? >> well i think we ought to be very careful, joy, and let me just apologize to my good friend, your other guest richard

painter for calling him, not calling, miscalling his name last week, i meant richard spencer. the bottom line is 80% of the statutes like the one in charlottesville were placed between 1890 and 1922. they were put in place to celebrate the return of white supremacists' policies into the federal government and state government, and into the law and into the constitution, and whpu there to celebrate a president by 1917, 1916, who was a white supremacist, white nationalist sympathizer. what we have to understand is unite the right for us, that rally was never about hate, just personal hate. it was about a form of white power. richard spencer and others want a gop that attacks immigrants, that rolls back voting rights and rolls back equal protection

policies and attacks immigrants, and we have to understand that white supremacy, white nationalism has an agenda, so it's right to protest the statues but understand the history, and so if we march there, we need to march on the congress and the senators, and say, do you agree with rolling back voting rights, because that's a white supremacist position. do you agree with attacking immigrants because that is a white supremacist, white nationalist agenda. do you agree with rolling back health care and living wages, because that's what white nationalists also want to do. do you agree with rolling back equal protection under the law, because that's what white nationalists do. so we have to make sure we don't take our eyes off the statutes that the statues represent. >> we know the justice department under jefferson sessions is backing an effort in ohio to purge infrequent voters off the rolls. they've switched positions on everything from voting rights to

policing reform. do you argue that those policies, which are actually kind of standard republican policies are white nationalist? >> well, let me make it clear history, in '67, when richard nixon first started pandering to this racist element, it wasn't the first time in history, but then he called it the southern strategy, with kevin phillips, who was his adviser, and they decided how can we talk race without sounding like racists? and so they said state's rights. we're against state's rights, for states rights. we aren't really racist. the bottom line is those policies hurt black brown people and in many ways hurt poor white people because they elect people who do not really care about poor white people and working class white people. so the question is, if white nationalists have it on their websites and on their agendas, and say this is what they're supporting, and sessions or any other senator is supporting those policies, then yes, you are supporting the policies of white nationalists, and you

cannot just condemn the extremeism of someone running a car through a crowd and saying, well, i'm not like them. that may be true, and we should condemn that, but are you like them in your policy position? because over and over again, this week, notice what bannon is now saying. the agenda, he's saying trump is back, wither' not going to allow him to back away from the age a agenda. he didn't say statutes. he said agenda. i've been reading the writings and what the southern policy law center has to say, they are about an agenda. he says what drew him to trump was his agenda against immigrants and deportation because they see that as the first shot across the bow of the kind of war they want, the kind of strife they want, ethnosociety. it's not all white people. it's this brand of racist white supremacy and sometimes have black allies, joy, and that's the other side of it, and that's not a new phenomena, because

there were black people who supported slave masters, there were black people who were against dr. king, and the civil rights movement. this is some very shrewd stuff, which is why just to renounce hate doesn't mean you renounce white nationalism or white supremacy. >> while i have you here, i would be remiss if i didn't ask you about the phalynx of evangelical leaders for donald trump. they've been silent to the extent they've said anything they've been supportive of what donald trump has done. jerry falwell tweeting donald trump was right to say it was both sides. and only one member of his advisory council to quit, business leaders are quitting councils and arts leaders walking away. what do you mean of the solid christian right for support for donald trump? >> well you know me, i disagree. i'm an evangelical and i have

problems with all of us being lumped in one place and also the notion of the christian right, because i think so much of it is actually the christian wrong, but it's not new in american history. that's what we have to understand. there has always been this theological malpractice and hersy. there are preachers who justified slavery. the articles of secession from the union were signed in churches. kkk called themselves the christian knights. there were preachers who supported and blessed the return of white supremacy, 1898 in wilmington there were churches, pulpits who endorsed the riot, preachers who challenged dr. king. this is not new. so remember, these same white evan yellicals supported trump when he ran as a racist, when he hated immigrants and said he'd take away health care which is contrary to our christian belief, said he would not be for living wages, he did not talk about how he would uplift the poor, he lied about voter fraud, lied about voter suppression and they supported them then, so really that should be no surprise, and i would say, even

to the evangelicals that say you are leaving him now because of his position, in charleston, why didn't you leave him on his position on health care? why didn't you leave him on his position against living wages? why didn't you leave him on his position when we tacked the immigrants, because one of the greatest evangelical scriptures is when i was hungry, did you feed me? when i was naked, did you clothe me? when i was a stranger, did you take me in? when i was sick, did you care about me, and that's how nations will be judged. so there has been a hypocrisy for a long time and i'm glad not that the religious left is standing up, but orthodox people of faith, many who i know, many who are coming out around this country are now building what we call a poor people's campaign, a national call for moral reliable to challenge that and next saturday, clergy in charlottesville i'm going there to preach, joy, they're having a service for love, joy and consciousness and those local clergy are going to write a

letter to america to say it's not just a statute but the statutes, and a whole lot of evan yegelicals need to decide you going to follow the gospel of jesus or the foolishness of trump and white nationalism. >> we will definitely be following what you do in charlottesville next weekend. thank you, sir appreciate your time. >> thank you my friend. up next the trumps are skipping the kennedy center honor. more "a.m. joy" after the break. ♪

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this morning, the white house announced that donald trump and melania will not be attending the prestigious kennedy center honor this is year. the first family will skip the event to "allow the honorees to celebrate without any political distraction" after two of the five honorees, norman lear and carmen de lavalate they would

boycott the reception before the celebration. the rsvp comes after all 17 members of the arts committee resigned en masse. the white house claimed trump was already planning to disband the arts committee. coming up, we're continuing to monitor events in boston as counter protesters march toward boston common ahead of the so-called free speech rally expected to draw right wing protesters at noon. also up next, steve bannon is teaming up with a real billionaire. stay with us.

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bannon's vision now that he's out of the white house? breitbart's washington correspondent trumpeted bannon's triumphant return to lead the friday editorial meeting after news of his ouster broke. bannon met with bright bar financier robert mercer to plan their ultra nationalist agenda. possible rival to the right's current media puba, rupert murdoch. tara dow dell, political consultant, charlie sykes, caton dawson, and david corn, washington bureau chief at "mother jones." first to you charlie i have to read this quote. sometimes in this job we're called upon to read fun things. this might be the most fun of all. charlie sykes, this was steve bannon to "the weekly standard" immediately after his ouster. my producers left off one line. he said "i'm jacked. now i'm free.

i've got my hands on my weapons is what he said. it's bannon the barbarrian. i'm going to crush the opposition. there's no doubt i built an f-ing machine at breitbart and i'm about to rev up that machine and rev it up we will." your thoughts charlie sykes. are you jealous i got to read that? >> yes, yes. remember how anthony scaramucci described certain acts steve bannon who perform that were anatomically incorrect, as ryan lizza points out that interview suggests he may have had a point. obviously steve bannon thinks he's going to be more influential outside the white house. there are two problems that he's going to face. he obviously has the mercer money. breitbart needs the rest of the pro-trump media to act as a mega phone and it's not clear they're necessarily going to follow that. number two, he's about to realize the consequences of what he has created, this cult of

personality around donald trump. the number of people who will accept and go along with anything that donald trump says or does, but having said that, in order to understand what bannon's going to do, you almost have to go back to the model of politics and monarchy, where the king can do no wrong. he will not attack donald trump. he will attack the people around donald trump claiming is he trying to protect and save the trump presidency from the globalists and the democrats and the generals around him. so it's going to be very, very interesting, whether or not he's going to have the kind of clout or whether we're about to see a real crackup of the unity of the right wing media. >> and tara, there are two ways to look at this, this reporting from axios robert mercer who has these racial views, lots of money, he backed kellyanne conway's polling outfit and breitbart and bannon and they met potentially to start a tv channel channel.

bannon loved the idea. he believes fox is headed into a squishy globalist direction. tv needs advertising, it can't survive on the love of the people who don't like requesting the globalists" and breitbart has had challenges with losing advertisers with anti-semitic, anti-black, you can continue along that vain. does it make sense, you're a businesswoman, does it make sense to launch an entire media platform if you're running people away by becoming more white nationalists? >> well hell hath no fury like a white supremacist scorned, so i don't know they're necessarily thinking rationally at this point, but i would say this. initially they'll have the money from the mercers, but at some point a television station is going to have to make money, to your point, from advertisers, and what the right is so upset about right now is that many democrats, many moderates are no

longer tolerating racist bigoted views and people are going after sponsors and advertisers, and that is backfiring on people who want to traffic in hate and bigotry, and so as a consequence, a lot of these platforms are having problems. people like daily stormers platform got kicked off of servers in this country and had to go to russia. so i do think that's going to be a problem for them, and i think also as they continue to whip up this frenzied, ugly hiding under a rock type of bigotry in this country that's now no longer under a rock, you're starting to see people who, you know, didn't really want to weigh in before, didn't really feel like it was that big of a deal, who weren't necessarily that concerned. you're starting to see alarm bells go off under much wider swathes of the american public. >> and caton, one of the things

that breitbart was able to do that was actually smart was they were able to drop the age of the conservative consumer of far right messaging by about 40 years versus fox news. they're appealing to much younger people but the question i have, as somebody who is a republican consultant who is not in the beltway and who talks to rank and file everyday republicans, is there a huge hungry market out there that wants messaging to the right of fox news, and essentially that cleaves closer to "the daily stormer"? is that a big potentially lucrative market for steve bannon and robert mercer to mine? >> great question, joy. one of the things i found out about billionaires, and i know mercer reynolds, partners with george bush and the texas rangers and also in the oil and gas business with him, a fund-raiser for all of us. one of the things i found out about billionaires is, they didn't become billionaires because they're stupid and to pile a lot of tune in that venue

is going to have a limited viewership, but even now steve bannon is going to have an audience, because we're talking about him today, and our cable tv outlets are going to talk about breitbart that most of us didn't know anything about, outside the beltway, so the interesting part is, let's see what kind of juice steve is going to get outside. i agree with everybody on this, steve bannon is wicked smart. he's going to drive an agenda. the question is, is how powerful will that be beyond the coverage that he gets on cable tv and the coverage that we give him, how powerful will that be, and will mercer really pile a tremendous amount of money to try to compete against fox? again, i doubt that that will happen, but it's a good theory. >> and sinclair, the huge competit competitor. david corn i ask these questions. if you think about what breitbart did in addition to

dropping the memeres and getting them on board most of the success is through traditional partner. they were able to get "clinton cash" a conspiracy book about hillary clinton into the "new york times," into the normal mainstream news cycle. that's what his expertise used to be. you talk about his cambridge analytical firm. they weren't looking for ron paul. they were able to get hired by mainstream republican candidates and by mainstream conservative candidates and some far right oobviously outfits like the sort of folks in england, but they depended on existing infrastructure in order to succeed. can breitbart survive, if the "new york times" says nothing you send us is legitimate anymore. you're white nationalists. >> i think they can. i think they will. i think there will be abaudience of a couple million people who read, watch, listen to anything that breitbart produces. i don't think that's unusual and i don't think that's bad. i think they don't have, to you

know, survive the way fox news does on the basis of advertising revenue. there are a lot of different models these days, a lot of different types of media and bannon and breitbart with a lot of money from the mercers will be able to explore different things, maybe combine with sincla sinclair. there are a lot of great possibilities out there for them. to me, the sort of overarching political question here is, what is the audience for media that tries to target trump aides and people around trump while still promoting donald trump, and can you do that without undermining the trump presidency, drawing trump's anger, and creating a civil war within the republican party and the conservative movement, which certainly won't help trump get elected in 2020. so to me, that's the heart of the challenge here is steve bannon can try to say i'm for trump. i just hate what his presidency is and i'm going to go to war against it and the trump presidency is over, but trump

won't accept that easily. >> let me just go around the table and have everybody answer that question. i'll start with you, tara, can you attack the trump world without drawing at tacks ining donald trump? >> no, you cannot especially with the level of lack of discipline trump has right now, and you still, it doesn't matter, if you attack trump's world, you still hurt trump, even if you're promoting him at the same time. you may not hurt him with breitbart followers, but you hurt him with independents who are right leaning. >> same thing to you charlie sykes. is it possible to build an empire attacking everything around trump and avoid attacking trump himself? >> we're going to find out. look, donald trump is going to be very, very comfortable with the attacks you'll see on mitch mcconnell, the business community, paul ryan, other folks like that. the question is, both of them, can they ride the tiger without the tiger turning and eating them. we'll find that out. donald trump is very, very thin skinned and i'm going to be interested to know how he

responds to steve bannon saying the trump presidency is over. >> caton last word on this, because you talk to trump voters more than i do, that's for sure. will they sit still for a full throated far right attack on donald trump himself? >> they have in the past. they did when he first came out. they were pretty solid. donald trump's loyalties are to his family. you are seeing beyond that, it comes and goes like a construction site in the white house, so we'll see. that base is holding pretty tight now. >> all right, we'll see what happens. we'll bring you all back to see, give us an after action report. tara, charlie, katon, thank you very much and katon and david will join us in our next hour. in our next hour, business leaders and artists are abandoning the president, lots of people are, and you know who's not? evangelicals. well, a certain branch of evan yellicals. up next, we'll talk to the man

suing a neo-nazi website called "the daily stormer." stay right there. ♪

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tune in to msnbc at 7:00 p.m. eastern as i host a special hour titled "politics of hate." you don't want to miss it. my next guest is suing the neo-nazi website "the daily stormer." stay with us. i didn't know where i was from ethnically. so we sent that sample off to ancestry. my ancestry dna results are that i am 26% nigerian.

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frequent guest and friend of the show dean of the daily beast is suing the neo-nazi the daily stormer. he filed a defamation lawsuit over a june post that accused him of being, get this, an isis terrorist, and the master mind of the concert bombing in manchester in may. the lawsuit came two days after the daily stormer was kicked off of web hosting services after posting a derogatory story about heather heyer, the woman killed by white supremacists in

charlottesville. the site was back online friday with the help of a small startup company. joining me now is dean obadala and jonathan smith. thank you both for being here. dean, why did you join isis, and why are you planning and master minding terrorist attacks? >> you have to start reading "the daily stormer". what they did is not unexpected in donald trump's america where he has refused to denounce the white supremacists during the campaign. today he tweeted crooked hillary. he's never used the word crooked to describe white supremacists. i wrote an article in "the daily beast" why won't donald trump ever say the words white supremacists terrorism? they were so outraged. he wrote an article where he

fabricated tweet including ones i wrote saying i'm coming on your show and made it seem like i was praising the manchester bombing and i was hiding in syria with my faithful. he fabricated the tweets and then wrote an article based on them saying i'm a terrorist and i'm the master mind. the whole goal was to marginalize my voice to get me out of the mainstream media. >> i think this was the article that dean wrote, headlined "will donald trump ever say the words white supremacist terrorism". that's the article you wrote. and now let's look at these are one and two. these are the faked tweets they put out. one on may 27th. it says safely now amongst ummah in syria. i am now able to confirm that i personally planned the manchester bombing by the grace of allah. and retweeted.

and there's another one. of course you would tweet your plans to the joy faithful. and then number two, this was on may 29th. all glory to allah. it was only by his grace i was able to successfully carry out the manchester bombing. the idea that you would be planning terrorism in england is so stupid. it's like the pizza gate story. who believes this. >> that's where the scary thing comes in. the response was death threats by the white supremacists, readers of "the daily stormer". the death threats i got from the readers were like here's a picture with a gun saying dean, look into my gun or you'd better buy of natural causes before i get you. they literally radicalize you. on some level i've been called a

terrorism countless times by times. this fabricating tweets goes beyond anything acceptable in civil discourse. we were not going to let them. that's when muslim advocate were involved to say it's not just about me. it's every minority who stands up to them. they want to silence us. they want to kill us, literally, if they can. >> and the law firm, a guy who fights for voting rights in ohio. jonathan smith, what do you have to prove in order to prove deaf nation? are the faked tweets enough to make a legal case here? >> so in this case, what we have is we have not just the fake tweets but we have the fact that the daily stormer put forward this article when they claim that dean is -- was the master mind behind the attack. they knew full well at the time there were several dozen new news reports about the

perpetrator of the attack. there were lots of stories about what he had done and all the planning that went into that. and so they disregarded the truth, the actual details of what happened, and instead, they went forward with this fake tweets, with these allegations against dean. what's really important here is not just simply the defamation of the libel, but the article what they put forward in the article, it's also the fact they encouraged and incited their readers to go after dean. they encouraged their readers to go after him, and included a tracker of dean's tweets so they could see where he was. in addition to the defamation claims we have a number of claims that speak to the harm and distress that came to dean because of the publication. >> and it's called the top hate site in america.

the allegations are ridiculous. i hope you're safe. >> you get concerned. when you read all the things, it gets you concerned. >> absolutely. >> thank you, dean. our friend, and jonathan smith j our new friend. up next, an anti-racism protest. mike and i are both veterans, both served in the navy. i do outrank my husband, not just being in the military, but at home. she thinks she's the boss. she only had me by one grade. we bought our first home together in 2010. his family had used another insurance product but i was like well i've had usaa for a while, why don't we call and check the rates? it was an instant savings and i should've changed a long time ago. there's no point in looking elsewhere really. we're the tenneys and we're usaa members for life. usaa. get your insurance quote today.

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we offer our price match guarantee too. and if that's not enough... we should move. our home team will help you every step of the way. still not enough? it's smaller than i'd like. we'll help you finance your dream home. it's perfect. oh, was this built on an ancient burial ground? okay... then we'll have her cleanse you house of evil spirits. we'll do anything, (spiritual chatter) seriously anything to help you get your home. ally. do it right. welcome back to a.m. joy. you're looking at live pictures from boston where thousands of anti-racism protesters are marching ahead of a so-called free speech rally expected to draw an alt-right presence we saw in charlottesville last week. officials in boston say they have a plan in place including more than 500 police officers in case tensions erupt into violence. the tensions were heightened this week thanks to the president of the united states.

who in a moment that was stunning, even by trump standards, went off script at trump tower to defend the white nationalists in charlottesville. to equate their actions with those of the anti-racism activists who oppose them. >> not all of those people were neo-nazis. believe me. not all of those people were white supremacists by any stretch. >> you had very bad people in the group, but you also had people that were very fine people. on both sides. >> trump's words prompted mitt romney to demand that trump, quote, acknowledge that he was wrong. apologize, state forcefully that racists are 100% to blame for the murder and violence in charlottesville. testify there was no conceivable comparison or moral equivalency between the nazis and the counterprotesters who were outraged to see fools parading in nazi flag, nazi arm ban and

the nazi salute. heather heyer's mother doesn't want to hear an apology or anything else from donald trump. >> i'm not talking to the president now. i'm sorry. after what he said about my child. it's not that i saw somebody else's tweets about him. i saw an actual clip of him at a press conference equating the protesters like miss heyer with the kkk and the white supremacists. >> and trump's defenses will also come as no comfort to the 20-year-old assistant special ed speech who survived a beating at their hands and who as the new york daily news reports is still receiving hate messages as he recovers from his extensive injuries. joining me now are howard dean

and patrice, leah wright and david johnson. howard dean, you can be any dean you want. we'll let you be who you are. donald trump got no. he was fully taken apart. all across the board except for a couple groups, white evangelicals pretty much stood by him. but he got huge praise from white nationalists. some called him the most honest president since washington. he's drawn their active praise. in a normal presidency, this would cause a complete rethink. right? but with trump, why do you suppose it doesn't? >> it doesn't, because this is who he's been. this is who he is. this is what he thrives on. he is someone who has really just kind of appealed to the ideas. so we're in a moral moment right now. this is a moment where it should be clear as day, any republican, any president doesn't matter if you're republican, democrat, whatever, knows this is something you're supposed to speak out about.

but this is a guy who is essentially president of the internet comments. right? the comment section of the internet. and this is who he is. this is a man who does not have moral courage. who does not have moral decency and is not the conscience of our nation. and doesn't have the ability to speak to it. >> a lot of people having praising mitt romney for his forceful statement against donald trump. i have to recall donald trump had already gone after muslims, called mexicans rapists, gone after women, gone after former miss universe contestants, you name it. he had offended everyone when mitt romney went and begged for a job at a dinner in november of 2016. donald trump had already been doing that. mitt romney was happy to sit down with him and eat dinner. do you think republicans are getting praise, undeserved praise for only being willing to name donald trump and stand up

to him when it's actual nazis that he is excusing this. >> well, we don't know. we're not at the dinner. i think mitt romney came out of that dinner looking pretty terrible. the lesson is don't be with donald trump if you don't want somewhere down the line to look bad. this guy is a guy who has no moral character. the interesting thing about this is i think this may be the moment for trump, the last weekend. i think today in the 2018 elections, if you vote for a republican, you're supporting donald trump. this has become a referendum f. if you want to vote for a racist in the white house, then you'd better vote for republicans. if you want to vote for the democrats and really have change, that's where i think america is going. and i think there's a lot more decent americans than there are the kind of people who supported the folks in charlottesville and trump is in the minority. and that's what the polling shows. i think this may be the moment that turns america away from the republican party which, frankly,

long before donald trump, was dog whistling race, gay rights, immigrants and muslims. >> one of the reasons we wanted to have you here, as a co-founder of the black lives matter movement, you've heard the counterattacks about the movement. it's a hate group and it's somehow a black equivalent of the klan. you heard some of that again after charlottesville. how do you respond to that when you had a woman who was marching with black lives matter killed by white supremacists in that city? >> well, i always think it's disturbing when people try to equate black lives matter with the kkk. it's ridiculous. black lives matter has always been an organization and now a movement that is about peace. that is about nonviolence. and more importantly, black lives matter is about gaining civil and human rights. and the kkk, neo-nazi group are about taking away people's

rights. >> and jason, let's just -- we can show the posters. you've seen sort of a climb down among even the people who claim this was all just free speech. on the right side of your screen is the unite the right poster that invited people to the rally. it was hard to mistake what you were coming to with the nazi air symbols on the sides. all of the nazi sort of regalia all over that poster as well as the people listed there all of whom are known white nationalists and proud white nationalists. on the left you have the rally for the boston free speech rally where they try to put a lot of american flags and change the nature of the protest. do you think that there is any way to separate the two? >> i mean, they're going to attempt a rebranding. it doesn't matter. you can call it mcdonald's. you can call it mac. it's a nasty hamburger, and we all know -- >> no free mcdonald's for you. you just ruined it. >> i'm done with mcdonald's.

yeah, they can't rebrand this. they can't suddenly change what this is about. i think what's important, sort of looking forward as someone else mentioned, now the republican party, it might have been a joke before, but now the republican party is essentially connected with terrorists. not just white supremacists, but terrorists. and that is a problem that this president has laid at their shoulders. the only way to fix it, and i don't think he will. he needs to not just say nazis are bad. he needs to say i don't want your vote. we don't want your support. if you're a politician, you found out a bunch of murders said i like that guy as a murder, you would say i don't want your vote and support. until the republican party says not just that trump was wrong but we do not want your support. we don't want david dukes in our party, they're going to have a problem no matter how many times they try to rebrand themselves. >> we don't want to psycho analyze donald trump on tv, but

this is a guy whose father did get arrested at a kan rally in 1927. that happened. there's records that reveal, and there's an article. he does have a family history of a certain type. when republicans try to argue against democrats, they go to robert bird. donald trump's own personal history, not just the father's affiliations but the discrimination against black people in housing, the birther stuff they feel is off limits. is the republican party capable of dealing with even donald trump's own personal history and do they have to do that in separate from him. >> they have to do it. donald trump has ripped the mask of civility off of this idea of the republican party being distinct or being different or not capitulating to white identity politics. we see there's a myth, and part of what the party has to do is the first step is acknowledging

the problem and calling it out. kudos to the people who have called it out. the next step is are you endorsing it in other ways? in tacet ways? are you signing off on all the stuff that donald trump is doing, including personal history, including not acknowledging the role that you have played in allowing to get to this point. i think there is something there, something deeply important that we have to acknowledge about trump and his kind of ties to the gop. >> i imagine that if barack obama had a history that was similar to the family history -- he had to do a whole speech because his pastor who was not a blood relative gave a sermon that he wasn't even there for. and so the idea that donald trump has not had to address himself to his own family history, what does that say to you? >> well, it says a lot of americans are perfectly fine with a bigot as long as they think he's going to provide them with a job. that's what donald trump sold himself on. i was never a believer in the

economic anxiety argument. but the reason that trump has gotten into so much trouble is people are willing to deal with the violence and the background and the corrupt businesses if they thought he was going to get something done. but now it's looking like he actually can't get anything done, and he's a bigot, and that's why his base while that 35% are never going to leave him, all the other republicans on the side are starting to say look, if you can't get anything done, i don't need to see riots on the television every other weekend. that's the challenge. the fear i think democrats should have is if donald trump ever wakes up in the morning and starts to accomplish policy, he'll go back to success. >> and howard, you took heat for once saying democrats need to start to appeal to the guys with confederate flags in the pickup trucks. we know what those guys mean by displaying that flag. for democrats, how do you respond if democrats are in a sense pining for some of the same people? >> well, that was 12 years ago that i said that. i meant it at the time. i think at this point the

confederate flag is essentially subsumed by the nazi flag. i would like a little different from what leah said. i think the voters know what trump's brand is. i mean, the republican party is essentially an old white party. that's who votes for them. our party is the party that looks like the future of america. i'm not trying to say that democrats are perfect. we have a lot of work to do. the truth is we know with this battle is the battle for the ten or 15% of the people who voted for donald trump who are basically decent people who wanted change and now are disgusted by what's going on. that is what i think is going to make the difference, and that is where trump has damaged the republican party. i do not believe the republicans can recover between now and november of 2018. >> and patrice, you've had a lot of people on the right whining that social media is kicking nazis off of their platforms and not giving them free speech. i guess this rally is there to

address that, what they see as the closing of the door to their choices online. what do you say to those rallying in boston for what they say is free speech, but which includes free speech for outfits like "the daily stormer". >> i don't agree free speech should be coupled with hate speech that leads to people's death. that's what we're seeing. the idea that people can spew hatred and use it to kill people, abuse people, humiliate people. it's totally unacceptable. we've seen the aclu after they came out saying they'd side with white supremacists, they've come out saying we're not going to side with white supremacists. we need to look at how we challenge what we think is free speech and how it's being spoken about in the streets and how it's impacting people's everyday lives. >> leah wright, howard dean, jason johnson, patrice, thank

you. coming up some nazis are bummed out because they're being picked on. too bad, so sad. that's next. ♪ (boy) and these are the lungs. (class) ewwww! (boy) sorry. (dad) don't worry about it. (mom) honey, honey, honey, honey! (vo) at our house, we need things that are built to last. that's why we got a subaru. (avo) love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. get 0% apr financing for 63 months on all new 2017 legacys. ends august 31st. [woman] so you're saying you didn't eat this ice cream? [man] baby, i swear on my lucky shirt... i ate it. [burke] fright-ning bolt. seen it. covered it. we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪

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alt-right internet troll going by the name baked alaska backed out. they're afraid they'll be involved in an orchestrated riot to discredit the right. mcguiness prefers the term western chauvinist as his group proud boys describes themselves. with us, we have a panel. chris, i giggle a little bit when i read these. they want to be rebranded. they don't want to be called white nationalists. they want to be called western chauvinists. chris, let's play part of his interview. let's listen to chris cantwell. >> i'm carrying a pistol. i'm trying to make myself more capable of violence. i'm here to spread ideas, talk in the hopes that somebody more

capable will come along and do that. >> you're the true nonviolent protesters? >> i'm not even saying we're nonviolent. we did not aggress or initiate force. we're not nonviolent. we'll [ bleep ] kill these people if we have to. >> and hthen he cried because h was afraid of getting arrested. he used to openly threaten police. there are now warrants out for his arrest. officials from the virginia commonwealth attorney's office say he's wanted for illegal use of gases, an injury causing agent. he thinks he's superior to you and me. there he is. christopher, at least he's not crying in that photo. what do you make of the attempt to rebrand this as free speech? >> first of all, there is no free speech issue involved. what's the free speech? there is no free speech issue. i think it's very important that as a republican and from the

republican party, guys like him get the hell out of the party. we don't want your vote. we don't want you in the party. . >> but if the president of the united states who is a member of your party will not say that, then how can the party lead itself? >> it can't. because if, in fact, the president is unwilling to say that, then it doesn't matter what other republicans are saying. the president hasn't said it, and he needs to say it. it's very simple. i don't know what's so hard. >> and sara, donald trump clearly believes a he derives a benefit from not angering these people. but if you look at who is speaking at this rally, a lot of right-wing extremists still peeking. some pulled out because they were afraid of violence. what does it say to you that the president thinks he cannot

alienuate these people? >> he's pathetic. it's why he sympathizes with the confederacy and why he wants monuments to last despite them deserving it. i think at the heart, trump's goal wasn't just to be the president. it was to build a movement. it was to destabilize the country. it was to put forth an extremist ideology and to mainstream it. he's perfectly content to continue doing that regardless of how much criticism it causes and how much pain it causes for people like the mother of heather heyer. >> there's a statement on the blog about the boston rally. they said unlike charlottesville, the boston event as currently planned is not a white supremacist gathering. it's been organized under the auspices of the at light rather

than the alt-right. do you think that this is just a climb down by some of these people who were proud to call themselves alt-right before, this guy baked alaska used to be proudly alt-right, and now he wants to be western chauvinists. what does it say that even they are trying to walk back? >> well, the alt-right is a neo- fascist and racist movement. that needs to be acknowledged. on boston common is a for the united states of america in the civil war. those are the traditional values of the republican party that i've been a member of for 30 years. we are going to be a party of inclusi inclusion, and we are going to drive these people from the republican party. it's not just about the neo-nazi and the klu klux klan. it's about the alt-right and so-called religious right who couldn't read a bible if they tried.

it's about the extremists who have sought to take over our party for 30 years. they're going to be out. there's a civil war in the republican party, but all of these people are going to be out or the republican party is going to cease to exist. we're the party of abraham lincoln and the party of inclusion. these people are going to be gone. >> david, there has been a battle. the democrats went through this as well. the democrats were home to the far racist right for 150 years. they expelled them not even on purpose. once they passed civil rights and they needed somewhere to go, they wound up in the gop. how hard is it going to be for republicans to do that when you still have people who may not consider themselves to be hard core white nationalists but who do things like this. you have a guy who plays for the orioles named adam jones who played in boston back in may, and says he was called the n-word by regular fans. you have all these stories of people who use bigotry in their

daily lives. boston is known to have had a history of some real racial ugliness. there's some people who may not publicly identify as white nationalists but they feel that way. if those people are attracted to your political party, how do you get them out? >> it's not just that they've been attracted to the political party. it's that the republican party has used that as one of their key leverages to gain power going back to the southern strategy that richard nixon used to take advantage of the civil rights backlash down in the south. >> sorry to cut you off. i want everyone to know that's the counterprotest. it's huge in boston right now. >> thank you. through the birther movement, mitt romney put out a great statement this week. but in 2012 we went after donald trump for his endorsement when trump was known mostly as a racist birther. and then he embraced trump after

and tried to get a job with trump. the republican party basically made -- has made common cause with birtherism and racism for many, many years. richard painter hasn't, and there's a part of the party that does hail back to the abraham lincoln days and ideals. the party at its core has moved away from that, and it's been playing with race for so long that i don't -- i think it's part of the dna. i don't know how you get rid of it at this point. >> i want to let you answer that first, richard. and then i'll come to chris. if the party for this many decades right wing talk radio and some of the fox news content and through the birther movement, even just supporting donald trump has cultivated voters for so long. is it salvageable? is there a way to walk it back? >> parties can change. the democratic party for years, williams jennings brian didn't believe in evolution.

president of the united states and many of these people who are racists were former democrats and richard nixon decided he wanted to bring them in for political reasons and then ronald reagan furthered that movement, the religious right which has nothing to do with christian principles. it was brought in. we can get these people out. they have driven respectable people out of the republican party. we can go back to being the party of abraham lincoln and teddy roosevelt who did a lot to protect the environment, and we could be a constructive party, and we're going to do that. these people are out the door, and this is only the beginning. they are out the door. >> i salute richard's optimism there. i hope he's right. >> i want to give chris the last word. is it possible to do? >> it is possible to do. but here's the thing. what's happening is that we have allowed the party to be hijacked by this kind of nonsense, and if

we don't move away from that as a party we can forget it. >> christopher, sara, david, thank you guys so much for being here. richard will be back later in the show. coming up donald trump's evangelical board is standing by him except for one member who is joining me next to explain why.

we are watching the protest in boston as thousands of anti-racism protesters march. a free speech rally is expected to saw what was on display in charlottesville last week. up next, the evangelical leader who is abandoning donald trump. mike and i are both veterans, both served in the navy. i do outrank my husband, not just being in the military, but at home. she thinks she's the boss. she only had me by one grade. we bought our first home together in 2010. his family had used another insurance product but i was like well i've had usaa for a while, why don't we call and check the rates? it was an instant savings and i should've changed a long time ago.

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donald trump turned radio active this week after his defense of neo-nazis and white supremacists. he lost many of his business friends. trump has been forced to disband three of his business advisory

councils after the members started dropping him. then the arts and humanities committee disbanded i'm sorry. it had a hidden message resist in an open admonition to trump that we are better than this. if this is not clear to you, we call on you to resign your office. however, there's no moral quandary for one group of trump's advisor. every member of his evangelical council is keeping put with one exception. on friday he submitted his resignation saying it was obvious there was a deepening conflict in values between myself and the administration. the pastor is joining me now and also joining me is pastor mark burns of harvest praise and worship center. thank you both for being here. reverend bernard, if your letter you indicated you had already begun to step away from the

koum. why? >> i say step away. it was a new york times article that goes back to october of 2016 where i express that there was some concerns about the way things were going. and i said step away. i didn't totally divorce myself. i left myself open, and wanted to see the success of things. got to remember, i got involved because i truly believe that no matter who is in office, we need to have a seat at the table, and i was concerned about the religious freedom of america and the future of religious freedom, and an inner city initiative which was one of trump's campaign promises. and i wanted to be involved some way to see how that would work. >> and you are -- you lived in new york for a long time. i presume you know a lot on the donald trump. >> yeah. >> we had on the reverend dr. william barber. he had a critique and question that i think is valid and fair to raise. do we have that clip of him? let's play it from last hour. >> these same white evangelicals

supported trump when he ran as a racist and hated immigrants. when he said he would take away health care. said he would not be for living wages. he did not talk act uplifting the poor. he lied about voter fraud and suppression. really that should be no surprise. >> this is a guy who was accused by the nixon administration of housing discrimination. would it be fair to say you went on the council with him and why did you do on a council with a man who had done all of these things? >> to effect change. sometimes you have to deal with what you have. that was one of those situations. as i said in my statement, the social and political climate we're in right now necessitates often the coming together of unlikely individuals. and i was one of those unlikely individuals to be there. and there was hope.redemption.

that's the window through which we see the world. there was hope in. after a while, you have to make a decision. every decision is a value of judgment. i had to determine cost versus worth. how much is this costing know continue in this relationship and how much is it worth? is it worth that time, effort, and it took me 40 years to build my credibility, and my reputation. and that goes away in four or eight years if it lasts that long. >> yeah. and lastly, are you concerned that the president of the united states harbors racist views? >> no. i will tell you that i have had opportunity to know him before he decided to run for president. we sat and ate together and talked. i don't think he's racist. i think he's ill-advised and an opportunist. i think a lot of what he's doing and saying is politically motivated. he never established a set of core values that guides his

thinking and a moral compass. so that vacillation for me is him being tossed back and forth between opinions that surround him. and that's problematic. for a leader, at some point in time you have to have a set of internal convictions that say this is what i believe and this is what i'm going to support. >> reverend burns, if it is the case that donald trump does not have a moral core and he's not a church-going man. he has weird ways of quoting the bible. he said he'd never ask for forgiveness. he looks to himself for forgiveness, and yet, evangelical voters overwhelmingly support him. eight out of ten. and he stale maintains 65 % support among white evangelicals despite only 38% support among everyone else. as a christian leader, how do you stand behind a man who doesn't seem to have a moral core, and who just equated neo-nazis and white nationalists

with the people protesting them? >> well, joy, for me and i can only speak about me and my convictions. first of all, i honor dr. bernard. he's a general among general and a deep friend of mine, and he's been a blessing to my life. he's a wise leader for us. that's why i was extremely saddened to hear that he was resigning and stepping away completely from what we are doing, and for me, i believe as i said on your show before, that my support of candidate donald trump now president trump lies deeply within my desire to see our faith, the christian faith, be center of politics again. i believe as long as we have as dr. bernard stated, a seat at the table, that it's our spiritual obligation to be a

voice of god to the ear of the president of the united states. and for me, how do i stand behind even though i believe some of the opinions that you declared are inaccurate. i don't believe he supported neo-nazis or white supremacists. >> what did you think his statement meant? when he said that some of the people who were marching -- i mean, they marched on a church. there were people who were clergy who were beaten by these people, members of your faith were beaten up by these people. when he said some of them were fine people, what do you think he meant by that? >> again, i can just speak to my personal conviction, and my support for the movement that i believe god has led. i could never abandon, because i believe god has called me to this. i can never abandon anyone who i believe god has chosen me as a man of god, as a christian, and as a leader in the body of christ to speak the word of the

lord to the ear of the president. just like i could never abandon from one of my church members who might have done a horrendous crime. if they needed their spiritual leader to be with them, then i would do that because that is my job as a chris mtian leader. >> stick with your opinion, in your opinion, was what donald trump said about charlottesville wrong? >> i believe that -- let me just answer it like this. i don't have all the information that the president had. if it was me -- >> just the information you know, that people marched -- >> i would say it stronger in reference to the kkk, neo-nazis, but i don't have all the information. i know it's so important, it is so important that even though we despise with the kkk and neo-nazis and hate groups that hates people based off the color of their skin, bealso have to examine, even though we may stand behind them, the message

of antifa and why they were protesting. we have to look into their methods as to how they were protesting and was it inciting violence? were they blocking the hate group whom we despise, their first amendment right to protest? again, either we change the constitution, or we stand behind the constitution regardless of us hating the message of the neo-nazis and the kkk, and the president of the united states can't afford to be one-sided. he has to be the president for all people, and that includes covering the constitution of the united states. >> just to be accurate, antifa were not the only people protesting and civilians cannot block the rights of the first amendment rights of other americans. i want to come to dr. bernard. are evangelicals willing to trade -- you talked about the importance of reputation and the importance of your honor. are evangelicals trading their honor for supreme court nominees

and abortion rights? >> there's wonderful people on that counsel, people who love god, love country, and i respect them. this is the decision that i made, because i have a set of core values that guide my thinking and my decision making. i have a problem with continuing to support anything that's going to endorse this kind of behavior that made it difficult for me as a black person in america to experience the fullness of american life, the american promise. the reality is whites can easily make decisions about things that i can't because we experience two different realities in america. when drugs became -- went into the black neighborhood, it was a black problem, and we were sent to jail. when drugs hit the white community, it was an american problem, and they were sent to rehab and programs. it's a big difference in the realities that we experience as

persons of color and what whites experience in the country. >> pastor burns, can you name any policies that donald trump has put forward that have helped people of color or christians? >> well, i want to answer dr. bernard and again -- >> first, can you answer my question and then you can do that? >> absolutely. i'm going to come to that, but while it's on my mind, i want to say for me, and, again, this is my personal conviction. the question many are asking why am i supporting, why i'm not resi resigning, especially since dr. bernard has resigned, a voice among great leaders. i believe the blood of jesus covers our color. i truly believe that. i believe until we can stop focusing on the color of our skin and start as leaders echoing the voice of jesus christ that says that i am first a child of god, and then i am a black man second.

or i am a white person second. i think dr. bernard said it reverse. he said he was a black man first and a christian second. >> hold on. pastor burns, we've gone to a different discussion. i want you to answer my question if you could, please. name the policies that donald trump has put forward that have helped black people, people of color for christians. >> i believe number one, kneel gorsuch is a person -- >> that's not a policy. >> we're talking about the things the president ran on. he's pro-life. he's standing behind promarriage. he's christian and profaith. that's the number one reason by christia christia christians and evangelicals support ttd president of the united states. so we have a supreme court justice that believes in the core values. >> it's 100% about abortion and gay marriage? that's it? that's all that matters? >> no. that's not all that matters, but

it was the number one issue that -- why christians and evangelicals supported the president of the united states. >> can you name anything else? >> well, i think it's also important to understand that the president is making it very clear from his campaign and to now that raising the economic value of our nation is the key to raising the economic value of african americans and all americans in our country. we also understand that black people now, especially black families is the lowest net worth in america. the net worth of a black family right now is between $5,000 to $8,000. the net worth of a white family is more. there's a huge economic drop, and difference between where we are as african americans and where the rest of america is. >> let me give reverend -- >> has over 1 million jobs added to our country. it is until we stop looking at -- go ahead, joy. >> we're out of time. i want to make sure reverend

bernard gets another word. >> the greatest influence we have as religious leaders is our moral influence. that moral influence has to be front and center in anything that we attach ourselves to. when that moral influence is brought into question, we have to consider whether we should continue down the same path or make a decision to alter that path. >> thank you so much for being here. it is great to see you again, both. thank you both for being here today. >> thank you. >> coming up at the top of the hour, as thousands of anti-racism protesters take to the streets, we'll go live to boston as the so-called free speech rally gets going. ♪

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thousands of people are marching in the streets of boston today to protest a planned, quote unquote, free speech rally in boston common. joining me now by phone from boston is martha, a reporter from wmur. i'm also going to bring in sara and richard in a minute, but let's go to our reporter first. what are you seeing on the ground there? we've seen a little bit of skirmishers. how big are the crowds? >> reporter: the crowds are very big and they're quite joyful, if you don't mind me saying so. i'm right next to a marching band right now. there are people dancing in the streets. i see a lot of excitement about the number of people who have come out in their words to combat hate. >> and the crowds that we are seeing, we're hearing that it could be as many as 20,000 people. would you say that the balance is mostly free speech protesters

or mostly antis? >> reporter: i haven't even gotten to the common yet. the counterprotesters started about two miles out near a community college in boston, and they are marching to the common. they are going pretty slowly because it is a really big throng, and given that there may be 20,000 or more of them, i think the police are confident in saying they way outnumber the folks who originally organized the free speech rally. >> and do you know just from hearing on the ground if there are plans for any of these sort of explicit white nationalist organizations, the proud boys and the others, to show up at these rallies? >> reporter: we've heard that they will be here, but i haven't seen them yet. we certainly have a strong contingent of the antifa, the anti-fascist folks who are here also. police, there are 500 of them prepared to shut the rally down if we do see any violence, but i think there are some people who

may be here to make a stand. >> thank you very much to martha from wmur. let me bring in sara and richard. sara, you talk a lot about sort of the authoritarian societies and the way that they devolve. do you see after charlottesville a kind of, i don't know, sort of a hopeful sign that these sort of -- the majority is fighting back? >> yeah. i mean i think that there's been clarity. i think people finally see that, yes, this is as bad as it seemed to be. that, yes, trump really does believe these things and that we have to fight back. we have to protect each other because the government is not going to protect us. vulnerable people, marginalized people need to be protected from trump and his violent backers and from these policies, so i'm very glad to see the massive turnout in boston today. i'm grateful to them. i think that's the direction we need to be heading and i think it's also important to note that in authoritarian states or

states that become authoritarian, this type of mass protest is often what turns the tide. so i encourage it and hope it continues. >> richard painter, you have been scorching donald trump and the alt-right for, lo, these many months as they have risen in prominence leading up to charlottesville. do you see ironically enough a hopeful sign in the splendid isolation of the american president? >> absolutely i do. i as a republican, a christian and an american am going to take a very firm stand against racism and bigotry. millions of other americans are going to do so as well. and i heard that last panel of yours on the so-called evangelical council, and i've got to say if this president wants to find out about traditional christian values, he can walk right across the street to that little yellow church called the church of the presidents where the presiding bishop is an african-american, who is a hero to many in the civil rights movement. the church stands for the right

of gay people to be married just like other people because that's the christian thing to do, the right of women to make their own medical decisions about reproductive choice, protection of the environment for social justice. millions of american christians are angry at the perversion of our faith by those who purport to read the bible, who purport to politicize our faith purely for political gain, to win elections. then i hear preachers, i just heard on your last panel a preacher who thinks he's an economist saying a million jobs was by president trump. the republican party continue to cowtow to these people that don't stand for american traditional values, christian values or democracy. >> sarah, there's been a use of evangelical, even in russia by vladimir putin. this is part of the game, right, co-opting a certain segment of

the faithful. >> yeah. there have been explicit ties in all sorts of cultivation between extremist religious groups in russia and extremists in the united states. but i do think it's important to note that russia is exploiting something that is already there. as past commentators have noted, this alt-right evangelical movement has been moving steadily since the 1980s and the gop has embraced it. it's gotten to a point that they really need to turn away those members of their coalition who are violent, who are racist and who are against democratic principles. and so hopefully they will do so. >> well, let me finish this up with a poll for our viewers. i did a poll on my twitter feed, will donald trump ever attack steve bannon on twitter. 40% of you said definitely. more than 5400 of you voted. 60% said, nope, he's scared of him and that's what's winning so far. keep voting if you like and i'll follow up on twitter with you guys. martha, thank you very much.

sarah and the great richard painter, thank you very much. now i'll hand it off to alex witt. >> thank you so much, joy reid. excellent coverage the last couple of hours. we take you right now to the heart of boston. that is one big march. they had expected thousands. they didn't know how many thousands. 15,000 was a preliminary estimate. now they're pushing the number 20,000 people all hoping to convene there in a peaceful demonstration. they are protesting there at the boston commons area. it was the so-called free speech rally. the organizers say they want to highlight the importance of the threats to free speech. counterprotesters are saying they reject the positions of the far right activists. there you see my colleague, nbc's garrett haak, he's in boston with more of this. garrett, i know you've been speaking with counterprotesters this morning. what are you hearing? >> reporter: hey, alex. yeah, we're r