scary and tension situation. that does it for us on this wednesday morning, everybody. i'm yasmin vossoughian along louis burgdorf and ayman mohyeldin. "morning joe" starts right now. >> this has been a total cooperative effort. we will see you soon. had is historic, it's epic, but it happened in texas and texas can handle anything. thank you all, folks. thank you. thank you. >> good morning. >> that is some product placement right there, the president pushing his own line. >> apparently there is a white house press release that has a link to buy that hat. so good news if you're in hurricane zone, you can get the hat. >> and he's also wearing that while they put the link on the web site. it's called product placement. >> harvey made landfall once

again. some towns have measured 51 inches rain. since the storm began and the situation has become more dire for many in the city and across south texas. as of last night there have been nearly 19,000 water rescues across texas. the death toll has now climbed to nine confirmed but the images of the missing are circulating across social media. among those killed was a houston police officer, sergeant steve perez. the chief of police spoke about how he died and how he lived yesterday. >> unfortunately in the darkness sergeant perez drove to an underpass that's about 16 1/2 feet, drove into the water and he died in a flood. so, once our divers went out there, it was too tresh rouse to go under and look for him. so we made the decision to leave officers there waiting until the

morning because as much as we wanted to recover him last night, we could not put more officers at risk. the wife had asked him not to go in. he was a sweet, gentle public servant and she tells me i told him not to go to work, didn't want hip to go and his response was "we've got work to do." >> and the rescues continue. the u.s. coast guard shared this video, hoisting a mother and daughter to safety on board their helicopter. overnight the flooding turned much worse in beaumont, texas. police found a mother who had been swept into a canal with a child. two policemen and a zodiac

rescued them. the child survived, the mother did not. and the shelters are flooding. >> we saw the prediction of 20 inches of rain coming into beaumont, texas. anybody who knows beaumont knows that is just a tragedy waiting to happen. sure enough they're bearing the brunt right now. >> we said a week ago 50 inches calling, that's ridiculous. if you have your social media account, go in there and type in port arthur. one lady says my grandmother is wheelchair bound and the water is at her knees, please help her as fast as she can. there's dozens of people in port arthur saying please rescue me,

we're on a roof, i have a baby and we need to get to dry land. we're trying to get an estimate of how much of port arthur was flooded. there were rumors whether the levees had been breached or not. the levees are holding. again, let me show you the rainfall totals. you can keep showing the pictures here, too. this is what happened in the last 24 hours in beaumont, texas. in six hours last night they got 11 inches of rain. and in 24 hours they had over two feet of rain. rainfall totals were estimated between 45 and 50 inches for the storm. what happened in houston has played out in areas of beaumont and port arthur. they're a little lower elevations. i'm a little more concerned with how fast the water was rising night. here's the radar of harvey. it has made landfall in the last

two hours. it's about to cross i-10 right over the top of lake charles, who, by the way, has been spared. look at our poor friends in beaumont. the storm as it moved to the north is producing tremendous amounts rain. remember we showed you the picture of the cajun navy, all the boats coming in to the region to help, they're telling them don't come in. some of the boats had to be rescued themselves. the rescuers are now being rescued. that's how dire the situation is. >> bill, thank you. we'll be back in touch with you very soon. >> to put all of this in per expect i, 26 inches in a 24-hour time period in beaumont, 50 inches in houston. seattle, which is supposed to be obviously one of the rainiest cities, i just checked it really quickly, 37 inches of rainfall per year. per year.

and unfortunately across texas -- >> staggering. >> they're getting that staggering amount in 24, 36 hours. >> around this table we have veteran columnist mike barnicle, national political reporter karl lee, political reporter for "the new york times," nick confisore and noah rothman. president trump is expected to travel again to texas again this saturday after making two stops there this saturday. the president later arrived in austin to tour an emergency center. during his stops president trump s thanked texas officials for their response and promised federal aid. >> we're going to be working with congress on helping out the state of texas. it's going to be a costly proposition because again probably ted cruz is here and

senator thank you very much, senator corin and we'll be working with these characters over here and i think we'll come through with the right solution. but probably there's never been anything so expensive in our country's history, there's never been anything so historic in terms of damage. >> before that outside a fire house in corpus christi, president waved the texas flag and addressed a crowd of people who had gathered. >> thank you, everybody. i just want to say we love you, you are special, we're here to take care. it going well and i want to thank you for coming out. we're going to get you back and operating immediately. thank you, everybody. what a crowd, what a turnout. >> after those remarks, a pool report from the "dallas morning news" read that, reporters heard no mention of the dead, dying or

displaced texans and no expression of sympathy for them. the message was services are coming and texans will be okay. the president didn't meet a single storm victim, see an inch of rain or a flooded street. he spent far more time in the air than on the ground. and ari fleischer is taking issue with what the president did not say. >> there was something missing that president trump did not say was his empathy for those people who suffered. that's the first thing he should have said is that his heart went out to those who are suffering and he also needed to thank the

rescuers. >> that's what you do, you go down the checklist and thank the first responders. >> there's three things the president would typically do is reassure people that services are coming and everything's going to be okay, you try to inspire them. and then it empathize it striking he didn't mention the number of people who died and try to empathize with the fact that people are genuinely suffering. it a learning curve for any president. but this president in particular, it's not his natural go to. and he missed the mark yesterday and he will going back this weekend have a chance to do it over but he definitely missed one of the big things that the

nation expects the president to do. >> what was the woody allen quote, 99% is showing up? and george w. didn't show up at katrina fast enough. it does make a difference. in my district when bill clinton came down, my district most of the people loathed bill clinton but, boy, they loved it when he stepped off the plane and got there to say i'm here to help. it made a difference to people when the president of the united states cops to your area that's been hammered by a hurricane. >> you know, carol is right. the presidency certainly has a learning curve to it. it's something that certainly donald trump is unused to knowing anything about. but human nature doesn't need a learning curve, the idea of empathy doesn't need a learning can curve. you either have it instinctively

or you don't have it. i don't think there's anyone in america or very few people in america watching these scenes who are not stunned by the scope and the relentless nature of this tragedy. and the staff work that was lacking. that's what struck me, the inability to mention death. sergeant steve perez, two days after his 61st birthday drowns, a police officer, and the president wasn't told about this and mentioned it. the whole day was kind of stunning, his inability to mention. >> it's just not who he is. i'm not defending him. i'm not saying it's what most normal human beings do, but nobody can be shocked that donald trump looked at the hurricane first as a good chance to get good ratings. you know, getting arpaio a

pardon. >> it's entirely possible. i think that criticism of the president as failing to note with sufficient empathy the number of victims and their conditions is a valid criticism. at the same time, it's a little bit of a double standard to suggest that the president didn't spend more time where there's actual flooding and surrounding himself with victims and having photo-ops hugging them because he would be meat with the criticism of diverting resources and making himself the center of this event so he's sort of damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. and he was met with a hero's welcome. >> when bill clinton came to my district. they couldn't stand bill clinton before he got there. they sure were glad he came. that meant fema was going to be focusing on the district. it the same thing with donald

trump to technical as. we were talking about the obama white house and getting him down to the p.c. oil spill. he tweend go home to chicago for memorial day weekend. i say it again, there a lot of people complaining about this or that. he showed up and in these situations, that shine as bright light on the suffering to the federal bureaucracies and they sort of stand -- i've seen it firsthand. the president's down there, i better be on my toes and better give these people what they ask for. >> that's right. the president has a job in these circumstances that goes beyond whether you voted for him or not. the spotlight, the attention is going to be there. i do notice over and over again, i've watched him now take five or six swings at a message of support or empathy. and trying as best as he can

sometimes, there's still always something a little off when he says thanks to the first responders where he says, wow, this is a great crowd. it's just not his wave length to do this -- >> it's just not. >> but i think the reason we're talking about this is because i think his personality and maybe even to go a step beyond that is in question and some argue that there's something missing or something wrong with it. that's why people are seeing a big void here. >> the reason we're tacking abo -- talking about it is because it is so foreign to him. >> to be human and empathetic. >> if you want to add that, you can, mika. i'm just saying and don't fin, my sentences for me. it is so foreign for a president to go into a flood zone and act that way. it is so foreign for a president to be promoting caps that he's

wearing. it is so foreign for a president to say, yes, i pardoned a guy who was complimented by being compared to the ku klux klan in the middle of a hurricane because it would get higher ratings. all of this is very foreign and that's why we're talking about it. but my bottom line is for the peep of texas and lined up outside of corpus kristie, showing up makes a big difference and he's shown up once and he's going to show up again this weekend. i know there are a lot of people out there in their mom's basement eating cheetos right now. if you're claiming you care about people suffering from a storm and you want recovery,

even if the president of the united states is incapable of empathizing with these people or empathizing that the first responders are doing extraordinary work, whether he knows it or not, showing up even if it's for good ratings will help the people of those areas because the bureaucracies will snap to attention. >> joining us now from houston is msnbc correspondent garrett hague. garrett? >> mika, just wanted to and he absolutely did get a hero's welcome. you saw that huge crowd that came to the fire station and embassy pressed their appreciation for the fact that he could come three. in houston, i'm standing in the

middle of what's normally a six-lane highway. this is normally state highway 6, just without down he's going to experience a very different thing here. just o kind of catch you up on where we are now, they just lifted the curfew here from overnight. some of the volunteer rescue workers have started to traverse the water behind me, and in some of these neighborhoods where we've had really high water over the last couple of days and some people have been trapped, the worry here is this addicks reservoir and dam where these things were built in the 1940s and they're getting so much water. they've been well above their maximum, well above the flood stage. they're trying to vent something like 60,000 gallons per second second to get the water i'm standing in now out through the

buy just to move all of the epic amount of water sitting in the streets here. >> garrett, thank you very much. >> thank you. there are so many shots. that's an interstate. i saw this last night on twitter. here's a shot. >> oh, my gosh. >> that's it-10 with white caps. >> that should pretty much tell you. >> yeah. >> the amount of water is just -- it epic. it biblical. >> i think people are probably very happy that the president came to visit but as the days turn into weeks, it's the response and the governor and the first responders and then those in the weeks to come, how quickly they can respond to what is really impossible to even describe the devastation.

being in a shelter that then gets flooded, i can't imagine people aren't really losing their patience. >> and what we really found during katrina, mike, was that it is local, it is state and it is federal. everybody has to be working to the on all three levels. and in that case had you an incompetent mayor, an incompetent governor and an incompetent president when it came to hurricane relief. >> we should point out to be fair about all of this that everyone i have spoken to either down there in texas or in washington has remarked upon the remarkable job that fema is doing here in terms of leading this effort and the remarkable coordination between state and local officials in deal with with the relentless naen --

>> certainly this is not 2005. this is not katrina. >> did it depends on whether or not this holds. it not just fema but the other agent ises are they understaffed. the criticism of that, that's also -- no one's going to remember that if this in fact works out. i trachd with barack obama down to the gulf oil spill. there was criticism of him then that he didn't embassy press empathy and no one remembered that by the time he was up for reelection because it had all been fixed. >> i think the only reason the conversation is being had here is because we're curious of hi overall status. still ahead, republican governor chris also ahead, defense

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is everything ok?adt, i could hear crackling in the walls, and my mind went totally blank. all i remember saying was, "my boyfriend's beating me" and she took it from there. when a fire is going on, you're running around, you're not thinking clearly, so they called the fire department for us. and all of this occurred in four minutes or less. within five minutes. i am absolutely grateful we all made it out safely. it's kind of one of those things you can't even... you cant even thank somebody. people you don't know actually care about you. to protect what you love,

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defense secretary jim mattis is once again breaking with the president after announcing he's going to say no to the president. transgender troops will be allowed to continue serving in the military pending a study. secretary mattis said he is freezing the implementation of the president's ban of transgender service members. on friday evening as hurricane harvey headed for texas, the white house announced it was moving forward with president trump's band of transgender service members. but mattis says no. he says our focus must always be

on what is best on the military's combat effectiveness. >> this is quite unusual, isn't it? >> yes, it's very unusual. >> we were discussing the president's reaction because it was unusual. this, secretary of defense telling a president thank you so much for your input. we will take it under advisement as we decide what to do with our armed forces. >> the whole way the policy had been rolled out was unusual. remember it was the tweets and the white house had the announcement. there's a sense that mattis is being a little freer and feels like he can challenge the president a little more. >>. >> so the president's second order give mattis the discretion to implement this policy. and given the whole way this was rolled out, first with the tweet, which came out of nowhere and then with the second policy

and now with mattis's announcement, i have to wonder if this was kind of the point, that the second stage was intended to back up the president's tweet and give him the chance to say, look, i did it, but he didn't really want to do it and he gave gave it to mattis. >> no one has accused johnson mattis of being a dumb man, nor has anyone accused him of not obeying orders going up and down the chain of command. so what nick says makes a lot of sense. donald trump saying i really don't want to do this, i got to throw red meat to the crazies at my base, why don't you give me some cover here. >> i'm not sure whether or not donald trump really doesn't want to do this because he's taken to communicating almost, cluesively to his base of supporters, this fringe of the republican party. >> feeding them. feeding them very, very well. they're quite plump right now on

right wing stoogery. >> isn't this thinking too hard for the president? >> at the same too many, donald trump said i'm going to be the most progressive guy when it comes to rights for, you know, and he went down the laundry list. >> i think in his heart who can know this president. >> that is the correct way to finish that sentence. >> he's a guy from new york. >> you were about to say in his heart i think this. >> but he's a manhattan guy. >> he's a manhattan guy. i don't think he's overtly hostile toward gays and lesbians and transgenders, but at the same time his head is perhaps telling him that this is what aggravates people i don't like and who aggravates people i don't like. >> and anything, mike that, aggravates people that donald

trump doesn't like and his base doesn't like is becoming policy. joe arpaio, transgender ban. i mean, it's not about moving forward with any policy. it's being anti-media, ant anti-elite, anti-academic, anti-everything. >> at one level a study of the trump presidency so far, you have to go back to the fall-back position and ask yourself does he really care about this? >> no. but does he really care about any of this? >> that's the question. >> the only policies that i have any evidence and we have any evidence in knowing that he actually gives a damn about -- >> tax reform. >> no. >> the wall? >> no. >> that stuff is all scams. it's all china's ripping us off.

in the 80s it was japan is ripping us off, the saudis are ripping us off. he really does believe that. he does believe that in his heart of hearts that american leaders have been stupid for years. you'll see ben and he goes, may, i i invented this. he was saying it on the "today o "sh "show. >> i think trade and immigration are the actual things that motivate him that he feels deep down and the rest he's working he is way through. tax reform, all ei watch all these kads and it's an intellectual issue for the economic elite.

i'm not sure it's going to move a lot the voters. i'm not sure his heart is and you get a collection tw you're talking about somebody. we may want to kay and -- >> i know, they told me not to look at the sun without those little glasses. >> it's). >> but this whole thing should give ig when this came out on twitter, there wassing is out of the o.d. and twitter being what it is, jumped all over you with this

group therapy and really vent and you're preventing us from ventings. >> and that's what they want. >> the reaction -- they want to get outraged. that's what he's delivering. >> and if you think about it that way and frame it that way, mike barnicle, this is donald trump's pre cy so he killed sevn people in arkansas before he became president of the united states, we hate george w. bush so he's a nazi tn wrrng and he's

a marks yis and hoose. skbrn and donald trump is the perfect conclusion to it where you're not talking about a positive agenda partial you're just knocking down every the roots of this perhaps are located in gruch's prizeprrn it was when ted kennedy went on to the floor and that a and they're

so nnch what newt gingrich did was ho. just to destroy him as a person and her as a person and alongside that you have donald trump, whose every appearance over the past 30 years on national television, local television a frfrm i'm a big boy, i'm smarter than them. >> i don't knowhe pb while there's a lot of snap, crackle and pop and you i'll kbchl if you're a lefist doing this. you willflfrm snrnl if you're a

right winger, work. >> this is easy. this is playing to the cheap snefrmt plus there are new details this morning about former sheriff joe arpaio's past that make president trump's controversial decision to pardon him even mohr vert, if that's possible. we're back in just a moment. electric light orchestra ] ♪ sailin' away on the crest of a wave, it's like magic ♪ ♪ rollin' and ridin' and slippin' and slidin' ♪

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. i know you're going through a really tough time. just know there are a lot of people that are going to help you. if you're from that area, you'll be amazed at all the people who come to help. so the days are dark now but they're going to get better.

joining us now, chair of the department of african-american studies at princeton university, eddie cloud jr. good to have you on board. the fallout continues this morning over president trump's controversial decision to pardon former sheriff joe arpaio. back in a 2007 interview, arpaio was asked about comparison as he replied this way. he said, "i think it's an honor." >> they called you kkk, they did me. i think it's an honor, right? it means we're doing something. >> i'm surprised we didn't even hear that before. >> an.

>> after he was pardoned, joey scarborough said you know he said it's an honor. i said you can't send me fake in some ways when we think about what's happened from charlottesville to sheriff joe to the repeal of central american miners where he's now sending the obama policy with regard to honduran children coming, lgbt ban in the military, even with general mattis holding the line, if you will. it almost as if it's the presidency of hate. >> knownoah, you said it's abou being against.

it's very tribal. >> it's extremely tribal. i don't know whether he believes that it's i can see why it's appealing to people because it sort rans this sort of shallow nonsense is its own good. >> what downdes pin that it is solely loath frm in a way sort of provocative.

>> provoking a response. >> i'm just winging it, but it's sort of like being the alice cooper of politics. where, you know, running around and shocking people. >> it's the political equivalent of biting a head off a bat. >> i'm mixing my metaphors. >> unfortunately that has made its way to politics. >> nick has stripped it down even more. >> help me. >> this is for your viewers who are unsure of how to talk about the plan. i don't know if you can read this. the plan is bad. they're not good, bad. let's just go with that. >> hold that up for the president. he needs a little more time to

read it. >> here you have donald trump playing to his base and in so doing, pardononing everybody loathes for the most part. and they had to spend $70 million in his county since 2008 because of his actions. >> i'd just like to say that -- what the sheriff said in that interview, if that's even in your repertoire. in the and what this does is coming on the heels of charlottesville feeds into this

nar pr. >> so, eddie, if you were an american who is black, will narks who are voting as a group against republicans in record numbers, who is a muslim. have you seen the president of the united states just basically white watch wrp bench who actually said thank you to comparing me to the clup kpuch. >> if you're not political, you

go dprrm -- seem to have broken a compact. that is opinion but he's not doing it, in, in let's condemn all that's beneath it all. >> before we go to break, if you or your small business would like nick con physical or pb he'll be here. >> still ahead, houston calls hfl snfrm and what is manse for nut storms.

. in -- and what it means for the new storms. "morning joe" is coming right back. knowing where you stand has never been easier.

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as the search and rescue efforts from harvey continue, the question many are asking or beginning to ask is how did the flooding in america's fourth most populated city get so bad? the answer may lie in houston's growth and urban planning. houston bills itself as the "city with no limits" and has no zoning laws. as such city expansion has gone virtually unchecked including in areas known to be susceptible to flooding. >> it's what is talked about before. nick you were surprised there's no zoning. when my brother first went to houston to work there back in the '80s i would go, there would be a skyscraper on one lot, the next cows grazing, the next lot an oil. they're proud of it. >> land has a natural ability to absorb water has been paved over

and developed creating a pool for the floodwaters to collect in. the city does have a network of reservoirs and bayous but they were not designed for the epic storms. some roads are built below the grade as a backup drainage system. for this storm they were completely overwhelmed and the issue is not going away anytime soon. since 2010, 7,000 new residential buildings have been constructed in one county sitting mostly on the land the federal designated a 100-year flood plain per reporting from "the washington post." >> they're building on flood plains. >> um-hum. >> that is an ongoing problem that when you don't have zoning, and we saw this in new orleans, there's a reason why you had

land in new orleans that should have been wetlands, that they had developed, so you can't be shocked when wetlands aren't there to absorb the rain. >> it's an extraordinary combination of lack of urban planning in this regard and then of course aging infrastructure, the reservoirs built in 1940 and combine that with the big elephant in the room or the black elephant as described as climate change, this is about rising waters, warming temperatures. >> more severe storms. >> makes the storm more severe. even though the science isn't clear but there's a combination of things, confluence of factors. >> by the way even if things were consistent, if you're building over what should be wetlands over what should be flood plains, bad things are going to happen. >> yes. >> period. >> but the question is how do you balance expanding urban centers with and the demands of

people in america for living space that is pretty substantial. we're not japanese we live in pretty big houses in america, how do you balance with that with the fact there's land that needs to be clear and you need to have remote areas. the science is ongoing and a controversial science we've been talking about for quite some time. we're going back to jane jacobs here for planning. >> houses be five feet higher from now on, basic building code changes officials chose not to do and those folks are on the hook for that. >> then we're going to need ten feet. >> and that's what you certainly see after sandy. you see a lot of houses. if you are going to fix your house along long island sound then you can only, you're going to have to elevate it or you're

going to have to pay exorbitant penalties and probably not going to get flood insurance. how do you balance it? you, for instance katrina areas that were wiped out in new orleans that were in wet lans areas, what should have been wetlands areas you shouldn't have rebuilt on them or you should have wiped all of them out and helped the people relocate. >> the radiant city is not a realistic ideal of what a city is. it's ongarr fannic entropic entity. >> that's what i was thinking, organic and entropic entity. >> it impacts all of us. i'll tell you what is not acceptable and what is not an idea that i mean it's not a reality, we can't continue moving forward with the type of property damage that insurance companies are enduring because they're going to pass that along

to everybody, a lot of them are going to go under. how much money is this going to cost insurance companies. i'm not worried about insurance companies. i'm worried about me, you, everybody that's watching right now understanding that a lot of these companies are going to go under if this continues. i was talking to a very conservative guy, i don't think he ever voted for a democrat his entire life but he works he's a guy that sort of figures out long-term planning for an insurance company and he said let me show you my spreadsheet. you don't believe in climate change? let me show you what we've been paying out over the past 20 years. it's been a nightmare. it's unsustainable not only for our company but every company. >> still ahead we'll go live to texas where harvey has made a second landfall this morning, plus reaction to president trump's trip to texas, politico says he spent far more time in the air than on the ground, what the president did and didn't say

that's getting a lot of attention and we'll bring in members of the texas congressional delegation, democrat joaquin castro and republican mike mccall plus governor chris christie who knows about responding to the aftermath of a hurricane, he joins us on set in our next hour, "morning joe" is coming right back. david. what's going on? oh hey! ♪ that's it? yeah. ♪ everybody two seconds! ♪ "dear sebastian, after careful consideration of your application, it is with great pleasure that we offer our congratulations on your acceptance..." through the tuition assistance program, every day mcdonald's helps more people go to college. it's part of our commitment to being america's best first job. ♪ start here. at fidelity, we let you know where you stand, so when it comes to your retirement plan, you'll always be absolutely...clear.

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we don't want to do that. we don't want to congratulate. we'll congratulate each other when it's all finished but you have been terrific. we have had a tremendous group of folks our acting director, thank you very much for the job you've done, and a man who has really become very famous on television over the last couple of days, mr. long, we appreciate it very much. you have been just outstanding. >> another day of heavy rain is set for the gulf coast today. what remains of harvey has made landfall once more in cameron, louisiana. already yesterday there was some spot flooding in new orleans but the mayor and the state's governor think so far it's within the range of what they've been expecting. it is a far different story in texas. beaumont is seeing some of the worst flooding of all. this video is from yesterday and the city picked up at least 12 inches overnight. >> wow! >> these images come from elvea

marquez at the civic center in port arthur where water is coming in. she told one of our reporters she is at this shelter with her children and according to elvea her husband stayed behind at their house when they were rescued thinking there would be another boat to save him. meanwhile houston has put in place a midnight to 5:00 a.m. curfew, joining many other nearby counties and towns as rescues continue by boat, once more late into the night and more shelters are opening. the houston convention center took in 9,000 people yesterday when it planned to take in half that number. the massive toyota and nrg centers open last night and some of the infrastructure is coming back on line with javier airport expected to reopen and bush intercontinental on thursday. joining from us houston garrett haake near two reservoirs everyone is watching. what is the situation there?

>> the situation is these two reserve soirs which were built in the 1940s weren't designed to handle anything close to the amount of water that's been rushing into them and as army corps hopes rushing out of them into the bayous and ultimately out into the gulf of mexico. they're discharging something like 60,000 gallons of water per second from each of those two reservoirs trying to move all the water on the highway in western houston back out in the gulf of mexico where it belongs. they're trying to thread the needle here of getting as much of that water out as quickly as they can without inundating the communities effectively downstream and without putting too much pressure on the dams and the infrastructure around those reservoirs. since the curfew has been lifted we've seen some volunteer rescue crews big trucks, boats, four wheel drives start to get back into these neighborhoods behind me from which people were being evacuated yesterday. for the most part they're coming out empty handed. they seem to say a lot of these

neighborhoods have been pretty thoroughly searched. folks we talked to are fairly optimistic since they're not fining additional people trapped in these homes. they're optimistic because it sounds like the rain event here in western houston is going to be completely over but a couple these folks i was texting with one of the rescue truck drivers they're starting to get their marching orders to head east to beaumont where the need is great and going to get greater. i-10 eastbound is closed right now so the challenge will be getting the help they need from houston to the folks in beaumont and port arthur. >> garrett haake thank you very much. let's go straight to bill karins for the latest on this. >> the pictures in port arthur what happened is incredible. 26 inches of rain in 24 hours. this is one of the highest totals we've ever seen in one location in our country in recorded history as far as rainfall goes in 24 hours.

the storm made landfall a couple hours, now it will trek through louisiana. friends in the beaumont port arthur on the back side of the storm still pouring although we're seeing scenes like this. the mayor has said we're trying to get to people be patient. the 911 system is overwhelmed right now but still keep trying and this was the civic center. they are sending dump trucks to the area and put people on the back of big huge dump trucks to get them to a safer drier location and this location had all the supplies with the cots and with the food and everything else. the new location they were going to as of now wasn't meant to be a shelter. they have to resupply that whole place. here are some of the pictures, a little boy sitting talking to the lady on the cot, very sad. these people were up in the pouring rain and the storm coming in and dealing with situations like this. these were donated cots, you can see the red cross sticker on here, about half way up the doors. we're done with the rain in houston. we're watching the river levels

most from the bayous cresting today and tomorrow and slowly come down. we have additional problems up to the north. the new updated path, it does weaken over land. still a big rain maker. the flooding today majority from beaumont to northern louisiana, this area hasn't been hit too hard but still an additional five to seven inches of rain along the louisiana/texas borders just horrible and joe, also watch out areas memphis to west of nashville could get seven inches of rain. the mayor said the city is underwater. he didn't say portion of our city are underwater. he said the city. >> so bill obviously the storm system hovered over houston for a long time, it was a nightmare would not move. is it . >> finally, beaumont by later this afternoon and this evening. hopefully it will have a good chunk of daylight hours.

one of the big questions we are wondering is what is the status? was this the reservoir or did they have a levee breach? they had a puncture in their levee and they had to bring in huge sandbags to fill it and protect it. here we are and they have sandbags that are a portion of the levee system. there are rumors that have failed. we'll find out -- it doesn't really matter why the city is flooded. >> is this storm different than other storms? >> most hurricanes we have talked about hit quickly. you'll have tornados spinning off of it but it's usually a 12-hour event. what happened here that kept it swirling around over and over again and why doesn't that happen so often? >> we just set the record because we just had the land

fall a couple of hours ago. it was friday night into saturday morning we had the cat 4 land fall. between land falls it was 100 hours. so this lingered from corpus christi to victoria. this is the longest we have ever had between a storm that made duola two land falls in the u.s. it has been hot as can be. it would be headlines. that pattern hasn't changed. it the weather pattern has not been changing. it stalled everything out no matter where you were and that's the reason for what we have been seeing. >> thank you very much. we'll talk to you soon. we have mike here, national

political reporter, carroll lee, nick and associate editor of commenta commentary. president trump expected to travel to texas again saturday after making two stops there yesterday. they visited corpus christi for an update an relief efforts and arrived in austin for reli. they thanked officials for response and promised federal aid. >> we'll be working with congress on helping out the state of texas. it will be -- again, senator, thank you very much. we'll be working with those characters over there and i think we'll come through with the right solution.

but probably tlts never been anything so historic in terms of damage. >> so you have people around that table. others were less than charitable. the focused sandy relief bill. it was a big bill. there was a mythology that it was full of full of. it was not. you can say it tried to go after every problem. there were not in that package. some were to pay for it.

we will see how these people handle the request they will make for what's probably going to be a bigger package. if donald trump were a conservative and if he were this might cause him to be very conflicting asking for a huge package. yeah, he said he will ask for a lot of money and he is going to go big and swing for the fences on this. >> and he has the texas delegation behind this. they have really dug in on this idea of having offsets for any spending bill. but this also adds to a huge plate congress has this fall. they have to do a number of things as soon as they come back from break and so it will be very interest to go watch how this shakes out. there will be a lot of

accusations and, you know, the president will be in a position where he will be pushing for this. >> and you'll have threats of a shutdown. yesterday mark meadows saying we don't need money for that wall. we're good with it. we'll do a temporary spending measure without donald trump's wall. here is more money, probably at least a $60 million request coming in for relief. >> yeah. i'm struck. as much as i understand the objection and it's not inaccurate to say that around this bill is that the earnestness with which democrats have taken to saying that objections to spending bills with entirely and they are some how an to them. so there is something in the news i think it was yesterday. i'm not entirely sure that they

would tie or put the relief in a debt ceiling hike and some how force the president to say okay. you're not going to get your wall but you're going to get your relief or you're going to rebuild this thing. i don't know if it's a real measure but it sounds like something. it's like okay. now we are okay with this. >> see, this is geographic. this is the same people that didn't want to spend in new york will be begging people in the northeast to support their bill. if this is a poison pill as far as debt relief i can see the freedom caucus walking away from it. >> i wish they wouldn't play politics wit. i'm from the gulf coast. you lived on the gulf coast. you know how this stuff is. >> as long as it is tied neatly,

yes. if people start attaching different that aren't connected to it that is a problem. >> before that meeting outside a courthouse, a fire house in corpus christi the president waived the texas flag and addressed a crowd of people who had gathered. >> thank you everybody. i just want to say we love you. you are special. we are here to take care. it's going well. i want to thank you for coming out. we'll get you back and operating immediately. thank you everybody. what a crowd. what a turnout. >> what did you think of how the president handled himself when he was a speaking to the large turnout? >> i think most of us would have handled it differently. i know there were several things he didn't do, thank the first

responders, talk about the loss of life. >> i feel like he wasn't prepared. you can't wing this. i would want to meet with -- >> but he wings everything. >> i would want to know everything about it. >> you know, the headlieb is he is waving the texas flag. you're hearing screams in the background. as garrett reported he receive add hero's welcome in corpus christi. donald trump's approval rating may be in the low to mid-30s across america but in texas he is doing quite well. probably in the low 60s. >> as we talked about last hour, he showed up. that's in and of itself for people to cling to in these desperate times in texas. events like this, national tragedies there's usually three stages, the reaction, the rescue

phase and then most importantly what we have been talking about at the top of the hour is the recovery stage. the recovery stage is going to be political. it will be enormously costly. it will have a reaction to things like potential of a government shutdown. it will have a to what happens to the freedom caucus and that's going to be a really interesting phase. that's when we'll find out is the president capable of strong leadership. he is going to have to make choices. is he going to have to stick with the wall or say let's ignore the wall. we have to get texas back up on its feet. it will be a long time occurring and it will be enormously expensive. >> it is. let's go to san antonio right now and talk to congressman castro. what can we expect? is it going to be a lot of fighting or do you think for the

most part you'll have member of both parties from all four corners of this country coming together to help the people of houston and surrounding areas? >> well, i hope we learned our lesson after super storm sandy and the length of time it took congress to offer that relief package and all of the fighting that happened. i know you have been discussing. i hope congress can go back into session and texas will be a supp supplemental and i hope we can support that and really laern lesson not to get into what characterized the super storm sandy relief package. >> is that possible congressman? >> i hope so. it may not be. i hope there are no games that are played in terms of the funding. i keep thinking it's possible that some legislate toerors may

to put it in a package for texas. i hope we can rule that out but unfortunately in today's congress i don't know that we can. i hope that it will be a clean bill that only effects disaster related things as super storm sandy did back then. we'll see what happens. >> congressman, yesterday the president said things are going well in terms of how it's been handled so far in texas. we are starting so see shelters flooded. hope wondering if you can look at potential pitfalls as this continues. >> well, it's true. there has been pretty good cooperation between all levels of government, federal, state and local. many cities like my city of san antonio have taken in evacuees and offered supplies and manpower. it's true ofti cities across th

country. in addition to the incredible amount of water obviously breaking a record for a single storm in u.s. history have to do with secondary effects. because this storm has gone on so long now you have people that may be on dialysis wl-- whose conditions are worsening. also people who either didn't stock up on food or who stocked up on food but not for a week and now are running out of food. so the longer the storm goes on, the longer it rains the bigger these challenges become. so in the immediate future it means dealing with secondary effects. in the long term it will be about search and rescue and search and recovery and rebuilding the city of houston. if you have seen those photos it is complete devastation in terms of people's homes. it will take years and years to

rebuild. >> we have been talking about a quote from former sheriff joe arpaio taking a source of pride he had been compare today the ku klux klan. i wanted to ask you about that and ask you more generally about the president's pardon of joe arpaio and what sort of message you think it sends to people of texas, not only black americans but all americans. >> well, first i think it was very poor timing for president to do it just as this storm descended upon texas and started to devastate texas. but on the pardon itself, i said last week that the president used the office to pardon a big got, something who openly racially profiled hispanics and probably others in the state of

arizona and really seemed to be proud of that. it sends a message that he pardoned somebody that disobeyed the judicial branch and ordered him to stop the racial profiling. for the president to pardon somebody who did these things gives americans a lot of concern. thankfully people from across the political spectrum have come out and said they believe the president was wrong to do it. >> right. >> and thankfully the people put this chapter behind them when they voted him out of office. >> okay. thank you so much. greatly appreciate you being here. still ahead, governor chris christie will join us after accusing ted cruz of like about relief packages. dheef of the houston police department will be with us also this hour after the loss of one

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joining us live now in beaumont, texas where they got 26 inches of rain yesterday. the previous record was 12 inches. over this event we have only had two loss of lives. that's too many but about 80 rescues just yesterday. >> and your biggest concern at this point, what is the number

one challenge for first responders? >> the number one challenge right this minute is that it's still dark outside and it's very hard to do a very good assessment of everything when it's dark. so we are anxiously anticipating daybreak. during the night last night we only do emergent rescues because it could put people in more harm. we have done rescues with water in homes. we do that in the day. we have a system where they can call the 311 hot line and we'll go get them. we started telling them if you think you'll need transportation tell us now. aft gets dark we'll only do emergent rescues. >> tell us what's in store for beaumont and do you have a question for the mayor? >> you're waiting for the final

heavy rains to end over you and also daybreak. are you asking for people in the surrounding areas and towns to your north and northwest that weren't hit as hard to come and help with boat rescues? >> not at this time. we stood up our emergency operation center last wednesday. we do have quite a few resources. i'm not saying that they are not -- that it's not -- that we have enough because you never have enough for something like this, but right now it's very organized and we know what we are doing and probably the better thing would be after the rain stopped -- first of all, you can't get to us. every street, highway, freeway that comes into beaumont at some place outside of beaumont is blocked with the exception i-10

going towards louisiana. >> okay. best of luck to you. >> you're welcome. thank you is much. appreciate your time. >> appreciate it. >> up next chris christie shares his experience on responding to the aftermath of a major stofrm. we are back in just a moment. it's time for a getaway.

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enthusiastically supported hurricane relief for sandy. hurricane relief has ban vital federal role for a long long time. the problem with the bill is it became a $50 billion bill. two-thirds of that bill had nothing to do with sandy and what i said then and still believe now is that it's not right for politicians for exploit a disaster and people are hurting to pay for their own political wish list. >> okay. >> republican senator ted cruise is speaking with msnbc on monday. standing by his 2013 vote for the new york new jersey area. >> so good to have you here.

>> he talked about playing politics. that's what he did with people's lives in 2012 and 2013. he was plays politics -- >> but ted cruz told us two-thirds of all of the spending had nothing to do with sandy. >> they did a fact check on that yesterday. there was a senate version of the bill that never passed that had a lot more spending. it got stripped out and almost all of the spending was for new york and new jersey and some of the other areas that were effected for hurricane relief. he knows it. the worst thing about it is statements like that. he should stand up and say i was wrong. i was wrong in 2012. it was the wrong thing to do. now i hope that the people of new jersey and new york are willing to let b--

>> so the washington post did have a fact check on it. nick, you scoured through the bill and sow there wasn't really that much! there was a very small amount of money that could have been put into a different pot than long term relief. it was almost all for projects that were intended. it was not all emergency direct aid. >> right. >> what's troublesome here is the characterization alied to things like fixing roads and community centers. i think what the governor is saying is it's not a real label to call pork. >> and also two-thirds, where do you get a number like two third sns. >> he just made it up. ted is particularly good at that. he made it up. you know it and i know it because it sounded good. >> i would never be critical of ted cruz. >> i know you wouldn't.

the truly disgasful part is he is not telling the truth standing in a recovery center. >> all right. let's expand this. i don't think it's fair to just talk about ted cruz. >> you brought him up. >> you can say that a lot of people across the region did the same thing. >> you know people in new jersey don't hold a grudge. we are happy to be helpful now because we know what the suffer sg like. >> you were talking about how it didn't hit you until about three weeks later. were you in new jersey? >> yes. i was in a garden level city. we didn't have it near the folks

on the shore. everyone thinks about the immediate lives lost. that period where we were dark, the week after, two weeks after, we really start to get an understanding of the scale. what needs to be done to get air-conditioning back on, that sort of stuff? >> our plan right after the bat was four steps to return to some kind of normalcy. get gasoline available for generators and cars and get kids back in school. if you can do those four things people will start to feel -- everyone had their power back within two weeks. here is how we did it. i got on the phone with governors in every state i could before the storm to say will you send workers? we got commitments from states as far as way as tennessee and

louisiana who started ton day sandy hit to drive up from new jersey. there are not enough resources in any one region to deal with this. >> when hurricane ivan hit pe, that night mississippi power trucks, alabama power trucks up and down our blocks and they were working literally 24 hours a day. >> that's who we are. >> that's what we are supposed to do. you lived through it. you presided over it. people have covered it. we have covered things like this. there is the reaction to it, rescue aspect of it which is ongoing now and then there's recover rhode island you're still going through the recovery process and enormous cost of it. in the mild of it, the reaction to it you have a president arriving in texas.

you had a president alive rooifirooi -- arriving in new jersey. tell us about barack obama arriving in new jersey and dealing with the people of new jersey. >> let's remember the context which you implied, we were eight days away from a national election when hurricane sandy hit. i was if not the top surrogate at least one of the top surrogates. so when the storm hit, the day after the president called me and said i want to come to new jersey but if that's going to be awkward for you we should talk about it. i said mr. president, we want you to come to new jersey. he came two days after. you're showing some of the pictures now. we walked around to effected areas. i showed him so he could see for himself on the ground in new jersey, the effect of what was happening the devastation and i think it set the pace for his attention to this going forward

and it also set the pace between my cabinet and his and relationship you need. there will be a lot of bumpy moments getting the recovery done. it makes a difference to have the president of the united states there. >> and looking at this disaster from a good distance how important is it to have like regional administratives, sba, hud, epa on the ground dealing with things in conjunction with the governor's office? the government has been hollowed out. how critical is that? >> it is essential. it has to start first that they can speak at any time. that day when barack obama came he handed me a piece of paper with a private phone number on it. he said you call this day or night and you'll get me. >> do you still have it?

>> no. he made the instruction to his cabinet members. he said if if governor or any of his people call it is unacceptable to that call not to be returned within 30 minutes. we both understood even though i was out on the campaign trail beating the bejesus out of him on behalf of mitt romney right up until the saturday before the storm but we had a job to do. the fact of the matter is i would do it again. if it was today i would do it again. that's what you're paid to do. this other stuff is not what you're paid to do. the stuff cruz was doing is not what you paid to do. >> so if menendez is convicted

you said i don't see it possible you would be the replacement yourself. is it even within the realm of possibility? >> i don't give statements on anything. >> so it's possible? >> you can say whatever you like. i have said a number of times over the years there are executive personalities and legislative penaltirsonalities. i don't know whether i would be invited to lunch all of the time. listen, governor christie has a better ring to it than me. we'll see what happens in this trial. we don't know if there will be a vacancy. what i'll guarantee the people of new jersey is i'll do the same thing when he unfortunately passed away and i had to make a choice then. i'll pick the person i think is best if i get the chance to do it. let's remember something else. bob menendez deserves the presumption of innocence. he is an american citizen.

having been a prosecutor it's our job as the government to prove beyond all reasonable doubt. >> is this a political like ted steve stevens? >> i don't know. we'll find out. the trial starts next wednesday and it will be all laid out in a district court in new jersey and we'll find out. senator menendez deserves an impartial trial. we shouldn't be speculating about that. >> thoon that note i think it wd be a good segway to joe arpaio. can i get your on how this president is doing? >> i think the pardon power is extraordinary. i have used it. my understanding is that one of the prerequestion sits is contrition for what you were convicted o. f.

i didn't see that in sheriff arpaio. first off guilt is required for pardon. i have always been told you need to look for some sense of contrition. >> so you wouldn't have given the pardon? >> it is not one i would have done. the fact is when you're a president or governor you have the right to do that. some say he doesn't. i don't lead that -- >> but you wouldn't have done it? >> it is not one i would do because of the person not seeming contrite for what he was convicted of. >> i know the president disagree wlas he did was unconstitutional. the fact is a court found that. you know, my concern about this is for us in these executive positions you need to use this power sparingly and use it for people who are truly deserving. now i know because i spoke to the president that he believes arpaio was wrongly convicted and

believes he was doing something that was right and just. everybody can agree or disagree with it but they can't do anything about it. >> we have done a number of interviews in the past couple of weeks. i have been asked this question so i'll ask it to you. do you think president trump is fit for the office? >> i do. >> how so? >> i think this discussion of fitness was determined by the american people! why does it come up? >> because i think there's such a hyper partisan attitude. i never thought president obama was born outside of the united states. we had years of discussion of that. >> our president actually is one of the leaders of that movement. >> which i said from the beginning because ridiculous conversation. i believe this con vir sa-- conversation ant trump's fitness for office is -- i think people

are allowed to be wrong. the american people voted for donald trump and i did too knowing that he had done that. i think he was wrong. i know he doesn't think he was wrong because i talked to him about it. here is the bottom line. we are allowed to disagree with our leaders. i said publicly and privately it was wrong and i thought it was a mistake after charlottesville. show me a flawless leader. everyone will make their judgment. i'll make mine. i can answer the question directly. i believe he is fit for offense a -- office. my hope is as he continues to go through this learning curve he grows you into it even more. that the my hope as a republican. >> what is your biggest

disappointment? >> we haven't gotten things done. we haven't put touchdowns in the end zone. the only real touchdown we have put in the end zone is justice g g gorsuch. for eight years things like tax reform. you know, things that should be done with the republican congress and republican president. we have been distracted by other things. we need to get focused on getting that done. >> we had you here when your approval ratings were low. like today. you didn't care. when you came back your approval ratings were higher. you still seem today have the same attitude. now they are very low. >> right. >> does that bother you? do you care? what would you done differently that may have got your approval ratings higher? >> you asked a couple of

different questions there. does it bother me? of course it does. do i care? no. because i know i have done the very best job i can and i know i have made a huge difference for the people in my state. i also know i have been the predominant public voice in my state for the last 16 year. >> what was your biggest mistake? >> hiring the people that pulled the she nshenanigans at the bri. it's an independent agent the port authority. i hired one of those people, just one, and i sent them over there trusting them to do the job. >> don't you think they were doing what you thought you wanted them to do? >> absolutely not. >> you think they were doing it for you? >> i think they thought they were but they weren't doing what i wanted. if you look at that time we had

over 100 elected democrats who were endorsing reelection. why did they do that? they did it because we worked with democrats over four years to pass things like that. the idea that i would ever want something like that done is ridiculous. it was done by a group of folks who, you know, clearly were on their own agenda and not mine. because if that were the case, if that were systemic you wouldn't have one instance of it. >> do you have thisympathy for them? >> sure. i don't want to see anybody go to jail but people have to be held responsible for their kuchlkt -- conduct. i believe in our justice system. i was the u.s. attorney for seven yearyears. i believe in that system and i support that system. do i feel sympathy for that?

i wouldn't want to see that happen to anyone but i will also tell you that i am to this day still at people that would use public power and public authori that was given to them by someone who was elected by the people to conduct themselves in that way. >> so given your respect for the law and your experience in it, what do you think about the president's comments about the judiciary across the board? some say that it appears he's trying to even undermine the judiciary. >> i don't believe the judiciary can be undermined. >> i know. but what do you believe -- don't deflect from trump. >> i'm not deflecting. >> my friends -- most of my friends in my hometown that i've grown up, they still support trump and they ask me, what disturbs you the most? i said what disturbs me the most is he doesn't seem to understand checks and balances and he starts going after federal judges. that disturbs me the most. does that disturb you? >> here is the difference, joe. >> does it disturb you?

>> i'll answer that in this way. i think we are allowed to be critical of people in public life. i think if we think a judge has made a mistake -- >> well, of course! >> just a second. where it strays into the unacceptable is when it becomes personal, when, like in the judge curiel circumstance -- >> but what about when you question a judge's authority? >> well -- >> as in the washington state case? >> i think you can question a judge's authority as long as what you say is i don't believe you are right, i'm going to take an appeal to the next level. what the president's done, i think to be fair, is he's respected those orders. where you would undermine the judiciary is if a judge puts an order in effect and he says to general kelly of homeland security at the time, to hell with it, don't listen to the order, keep doing what i told you to do. if you say i think they're dead wrong and i and i use the judicial process to go up, as he did, i think that shows respect for the system. where i think the president strays at times is when it gets very personal and vitriolic.

then, as like in the curiel situation -- and i counseled him this way at the time -- that you can disagree the way a judge is managing on a case but you shouldn't say they are doing so for personal reasons unless you have absolute evidence of that and i don't think that we did. so my point to you is let's -- we can be critical of anybody in public life that we want. do it on the facts and don't become personal about it. >> very partisan. >> final question -- >> what was that? >> very parsy. >> what? >> very parsy. you're parsing. >> i'm so sorry i came on to television and gave an intelligent nuanced answer. this is nearly a federal offense, mika. actually not to give a one-word answer. >> i'm going to parse everything. >> let's go to -- >> lou dare you! >> parse! let's talk sports. i'm sorry, alex. i got to know. yankees or red sox? who is going to win the east? >> red sox. >> why? >> i think their pitching is

better. >> what about the yankees? >> they've done a lot better than i thought they would. as a mets fan that absolutely pains me. but nonetheless they've done a lot better. their young players have performed. they've stayed predominantly healthy and they've had a good year. but in the end, my view the yankees do not have enough pitching to compete in the postseason. >> when is the last time you've seen a baseball team as dominant as the los angeles dodgers. >> the 1986 new york jets. >> shut up! shut up. >> 1986 mets. i still remember the straw hat. i don't mean to do that to poor barnicle. >> he did that at the mets game once. >> mike, what team most dominant team going back? >> you know, the torre yankee teams of the late '90s were pretty dominant, '97, '98. >> that '99 team was pretty dominant. >> governor chris christie -- >> quickly, how the cowboys

going to be this year? >> 11-5. >> giants? >> 10-6. >> jets? 1-15. >> governor chris christie. >> because they got to win one. don't ask me which one they're going to win but they got to win one. mika, do we have to go? was that less parsy for you? >> that was less parsy for you? >> that's the only way you can get through an interview about trump is to parse. >> if you want nuance, that's me. >> i want the bottom line. >> if not, have cruz on. coming up, bill karins joins us for the latest forecast on harvey. and more of the president's response so far. and the houston police department lost one of their own because of the storm. the chief of the department is next on "morning joe." once there was a little pig

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what happened. but you know what? it happened in texas, and texas can handle anything. thank you all, folks. thank you. thank you. >> that is -- >> good morning. welcome. >> -- the president pushing his online wear. >> apparently a white house press release went out with a link to buy that hat. good news if you're in the hurricane zone. you can get the hat. >> president trump visited flood ravaged -- >> quit wearing that while they put link on the website. that's called product placement. harvey made landfall once again. some towns on the edge of houston have measured 51 inches of rain. since the storm began and the situation has become more dire for many in the city and south texas, as of last night, there have been nearly 19,000 water rescues across texas. the death toll has now climbed to nine confirmed, but images of the missing are circulating

across social media. among those killed was a houston police officer, sergeant steve perez. the chief of police spoke of how he died and how he lived yesterday. >> unfortunately, in the darkness, sergeant perez discovery into an underpass 16 1/2 feet, drove into the water and he died in the flood. so we couldn't find him and once our dive team got there it was too treacherous to go under and look for him. so we made a decision to leave officers there waiting in the morning. because as much as we wanted to recover him last night, we could not put more officers at risk. his wife told me she had asked him not to go in. he was a sweet, gentle public

servant. she tells me, i told him not to go to work. really don't want him to go. his response was, we've got work to do. >> and the rescues continue. the u.s. coast guard shared this video hoisting a mother and daughter to safety onboard their helicopter. overnight, the flooding turned much worse in boeeaumont, texas. yesterday afternoon police found a mother who had been swept into a canal with her child. two police officers and a zodiac spotted the little girl clinging to her mother and pulled them to safety. the child surface from pi hypothermia survived. the mother did not. in a civic center people are seeking shelters but the shelters are flooding. let's get right to bill karins. >> bill, we saw the prediction of 20 inches of rain, 19, 20 inches of rain coming in to beaumont, texas. anybody who knows beaumont knows

that's just a tragedy waiting to happen. sure enough, they are bearing the brunt right now. >> overnight, you think we can't wake up to this again, right? new people crying for help and not getting it but that's the case this morning. here is a still picture. here's the cot at the american red cross and people just sitting in the bleachers up here. this little boy talking to the lady. the water was almost up to her cot. this was three or four hours ago. they are sending dump trucks to these locations, to the civic center. they are putting people in the back of the dump truck to try to get them to a safer shelter. the water is about half-way up the doors. as far as the storm goes, it made landfall about two hours ago. look at the beaumont area. it has poured. it is about as heavy a rain event in the beaumont area as anyone will ever see in not just your lifetime, your kids, probably their kids after that. just incredible. never happened before. rainfall totals, beaumont, texas, if the last 24 hours -- their calendar day yesterday --

they had 26 inches of rain. going back to the 1920s, the most rain they had ever had in one day was 12 inches. they doubled that yesterday with this just incredible epic rain producing storm. from here, we're taking the rain chances and making the flood watches go all the way back up to the north. we're still not done yet, though of course the worst of it is over with in houston as far as the rain, rainfall concerns are still with us from memphis, up through areas of greenville, mississippi, memphis and just to the north and west there of the nashville areas. those are the developing stories in the days ahead. but we still have a lot of recovery to be done. there is still developing stories with levees and with rivers. we'd like to send our condolences first off to the houston police department and the family of sergeant steve perez who was killed so tragically in the line of duty during that rescue operation on sunday. can you give us new any developments overnight, chief? >> well, things are starting to get better in terms of our

rescue efforts. we are down to 40 calls for rescue, which when you ythink about the thousands of calls we've had, i'm just very hopeful today will be the day we finally rescue everybody that we know about and start secondary searches of our many, many flooded neighborhoods. >> chief, this is mike barnicle here, along with bill karins. sergeant perez. we are going through a time in this country when police departments coast to coast, some of them, under siege, under attack. the work of police officers largely misunderstood. sergeant perez, as we understand it, was 61 years of age. he died two days past his 61st birthday. tell us about sergeant perez, the human being. not the police officer. the human being. >> sergeant perez was a man that was given authority by the badge he wore but used that authority in a humble, polite, gentle

manner. he was dedicated to his family. military veteran. a guy that didn't know anything other than public service. and on the morning that i gave his life at 4:00 a.m., it was pitch dark in his rural neighborhood. it was pouring rain. it was flooding all around him. his wife told him, don't go to work, don't go to work. and he said, i've got work to do. and he spent the next two and a half hours -- the last two and a half hours of his life desperately trying to find a way to get back to the city of houston, to his colleagues, and to the work at hand, which is protecting the security and safety of the people in this community. that just tells you that this man lived the life of service and that's what he was all about. >> how many years had he served on the job? >> 34 years.

there's something really special about the houston police department. our people love what they do. at that age of 61, 60, 61, a lot of police officers by that age end up wanting to retire. but retirement wasn't in his mind. service was. i've only been here for nine months as police chief. and the second they told me he was missing i knew who he was because i had met him several times. i think all of our hearts break. but we're going to continue on in his honor. >> chief, do you have any idea at this point how many missing persons reports have been filed? >> we don't have any large number of missing persons, anything unusual. the sad truth is that there are so many people that have been evacuated. last count we had over 10,000. don't have an update yet. my concern is when you have this

much flooding, once we start our secondary searches through these neighborhoods in our assessments, i think we just need to pray that the body sure that's sure to rise remains low. because so far it's been a miracle we haven't had more loss of life. >> chief, i can't imagine the eye motional and physical fatigue that you guys are going through and what you still have to go through in the next week, even the months ahead. thank you for taking your time here with us. we wish you the best. >> thank you, all. take care. now we want to bring in nbc reporter julia bragg live from the nrg center in houston. a massive shelter for up to 10,000 people opened late last night. julia, what's the latest there? >> reporter: well, bill, this is the biggest and the newest shelter here in houston. already just in the past eight hours though more than 1,100 people are here. they started off with 30 volunteers eight hours ago. they've now moved to some 700 volunteers. some people who show up here,

including this elderly lady i just spoke with her dog, patches, she is not in touch with her family. she's not sure where they are. she's looking for her family. they don't know that she's here. just one example. sometimes people come and they need help just trying to find family members. so that's what she's doing right now. that's what volunteers are helping her find, connect her with her son who lives in houston and her dog, patches, as well. lots more volunteers expected here in the next few hours. it is going to be a major operation. they are getting ready to hand out breakfast. that's going to be a big operation as well. >> just trying to get through one meal, let alone some of these people can't return home for days, maybe weeks in some cases. thank you, julia. that's the story of houston today. start to focus on rivers going down, people in shelters, when can they go home. but people in beaumont, port arthur area still on social media at this hour asking for help, asking for rescues, wondering when people are going to show up in boats to rescue them. that's going to be the story that we're going to be following

all day long here on "morning joe" on msnbc. back to you, mika and joe. >> bill karins, thanks. around this table this morning, we have veteran columnist and msnbc contributor mike barnicle. national political reporter for nbc news, carol lee. political writer for "the new york times," nick conif fkoconf. president trump is expected to travel to texas again this saturday after making two stops there yesterday. the president and first lady visited corpus christi for an update on relief efforts and later arrived in austin to tour an emergency center. during his stops, president trump thanked texas officials for their response and promised federal aid. >> we're going to be working with congress on helping out the state of texas. it is going to be a costly proposition because, again, probably ted cruz is here and,

senator, thank you very much. senator cornyn. and we'll be working with these characters over here. [ laughter ] >> i think we'll come through with the right solution. but probably there's never been anything so expensive in our country's history. there's never been anything so historic in terms of damage. >> before that outside a firehouse in corpus christi, the president waved the texas flag and addressed a crowd of people who had gathered. >> thank you, everybody. i just want to say we love you, you are special, we're here to take care. it's going wrel. a well. i want to thank you for coming out. we'll get you back and operating immediately. thank you, everybody. what a crowd, what a turnout. >> after those remarks, a pool report from the "dallas morning news" read, in part, this -- reporters heard no mention of the dead, dying or displaced texans, and no expression of sympathy for them.

the message was services are coming and texans will be okay. or, as politico framed it, quote, the president didn't meet a single storm victim, see an inch of rain, or get near a flooded street. he spent far more time in the air than on the ground. and ari fleischer, former white house press secretary to president bush, is among those taking issue with what the president did not say. >> there was something missing from what president trump said. empathy for people who suffer. that in my opinion should have been the first think he should have said is that his heart goes out to those people in houston who are going through this and that the government is here to help them to recover from this. and then secondly, the job of the president is to thank those who are the first responders doing all the rescuing. their homes are often flooded. but they're sacrificing themselves to save others and the president needs to thank them. >> carol lee, that's what presidents usually do. but this just isn't your --

>> humans, actually. >> -- regular president. so anybody expecting to go down the checklist and thanking first responders and praying for flood victims. >> there's three things a president typically does in a situation like this. that is reassure people services are coming and everything is going to be okay, you try to inspire them which we saw the president do by holding the flag and saying texans are going to come back better than ever. then it is empathize. it was very striking that he didn't mention the number of people who have died or even sort of try to empathize with the fact that people are genuinely suffering. it is a learning curve -- first of all, it is a learning curve for any president. we saw pr have this learning curve, too. but this president in particularly it is not his natural go-to. he missed a mark yesterday, and he will, going back this weekend, have a chance to do it over but he definitely missed one of the big things that presidents and nations expect

the president to do. still ahead on "morning joe," inside the efforts to lift texas up from under water. millions of dollars roll in from everyone from j.j. watt to the ownership of the houston rockets. just ahead, we'll be joined by texas congressman michael mccaul to talk about the rescue relief efforts going on simultaneously. but first, from tweet to policy, the president pushes his transgender ban in the military. how does defense secretary jim mattis respond? by saying no. you're watching "morning joe." ♪ [brother] any last words? [boy] karma, danny... ...karma! [vo] progress is seizing the moment. your summer moment awaits you, now that the summer of audi sales event is here. audi will cover your first month's lease payment on select

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defense secretary jim mattis is once again breaking with the president after announcing that he's going to say no to the president. transgender troops will be allowed to continue serving in the military pending the results of a study. secretary mattis issued that order last night saying that he

is freezing the implementation of the president's ban on transgender service members. on friday evening as hurricane harvey headed for texas, the white house announced that it was moving forward with president trump's ban of transgender service members, the one he first announced last month on twitter. but in his statement, mattis says -- no. he says, in part, this -- our focus must always be on what is best for the military's combat effectiveness leading to victory on the battlefield. >> carol lee, this is quite unusual, isn't it? >> yes, it's very unusual. >> it's -- we were discussing the president's reaction because it was unusual. this, secretary of defense, telling a president, thank you very much for your input, we will take it under advisement as we decide what to do with our armed forces. >> right. but the whole way this policy has been rolled out was unusual. remember, it was the tweet and then they went back and looked at it. then the white house had this announcement.

now mattis is stepping in. there is a sense that mattis is being a little freer and feels like he can challenge the president a little bit more. >> so the president's second order did give mattis the discretion to implement this policy. and given the whole way this was rolled out, first with the tweet, which came out of nowhere, and then with the second policy, now with mattis' announcement, i have to wonder if this was kind of the point, that the second stage of it was intended to back up the president's tweet, and give him the chance to say, look, i did it, but he didn't really want to do it. >> no. >> he gave it to mattis. >> no one has accused general mattis of being a dumb man, nor has anyone ever accused him of not obeying orders going up and down the chain of command. so what nick says makes a lot of sense. donald trump saying, i really

don't want to do this, i got to throw red meat to the crazies at my base. why don't you give me some cover here. >> i'm not sure whether or not donald trump really doesn't want to do this because he's taken to communicating almost exclusively to his base of supporters, this fringe of the republican party -- >> feeding them. feeding them very, very well. they're quite plump right now on wide wing stoogery. >> isn't this thinking too hard for a president? >> at the same time, donald trump also said i'm going to be the most progressive guy when it comes to rights for -- you know, he went down the laundry list. don't know that that's what he wants to do, even if he wants to feed the red meat to his base. >> i think in his heart, who can know this president? >> that is the correct way to finish that sentence. >> he is a guy from new york. >> you were about to say in his heart, i think this.

>> i can't speak to that. >> he's a manhattan guy. >> i don't think he is overtly hostile toward gays and lesbians and transgenders. but at the same time his head is perhaps telling him that this is what aggravates people i don't like and who aggravates the people who my base don't look and going forward it is a beneficial policy. >> and anything, mike, that aggravates people that donald trump doesn't like and his base doesn't like is becoming policy. joe arpaio. transgender ban. i mean it is not about moving forward with any policy. it is being anti-media, anti-elite, anti-academic, anti-everything. >> at one level a study of the trump presidency so far, you have to go back to the fall-back position and ask yourself, does he really care about this?

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the fallout continues this

morning over president trump's controversial position to pardon former sheriff joe ararpaio. back in a 2007 interview, arpaio was asked about comparisons between his department and at the time and the kkk. sew repli so he replied this way -- i think it is an honor. >> they call you kkk. i think it is an honor. means we're doing something. >> yes. >> wow. >> i mean i'm surprised we didn't even hear that before. >> an honor to be compared? >> it is an honor to be compared to the klan. he of course retracted it later. but after he was pardoned, joey scarborough, said, you know he said it was an honor that he was compared. i said you can't send me fake news, man. he goes -- i got a pretty good source. it was associated press article. which he forwarded to me. i was shocked.

>> there is an old african-american saying often attributed to maya angelou, when people show you who they are, believe them. when we think about what's happened from charlottesville to sheriff joe, to the appeal of central american miners where he's now sending the obama policy with regards to honduran children coming, undermined. lgbt ban or transgender ban in the military, even with general mattis holding the line, as it were. it is almost like it is a presidency of hate. >> noah, you said something in the break. it is really just about being against the other side. very tribal. >> yeah. it is extremely tribal. i don't know whether or not sheriff joe really believes that it is great to be like the kkk or the notion that they are a he somehow effective because that's just historically illiterate. there's nothing effective about them, at least not in this century, or the last century. at the same time i can see why that's appealing to some people

because it is transgressive. that's sort of the nature of this political moment with being transgression has its own reward and its own value. as long as you are making news, liberal tears, this sort of shallow nonsense is its own good. >> what's transgressive about the klan? that's not transgression. >> by which i mean that it is so universally loathed, as we understand it in polite society, to even countenance the validity of that sort of organization means you're bucking norms and you're being in a way sort of provoking a response. >> it is sort of -- i'm just winging it, but it is sort of like being the alice cooper of politics. running around and shocking people. >> the political equivalent of biting a head off the bat. >> that's ozzy osbourne.

>> i was mixing up my rock. >> unfortunately, that has made its way to politics. but if nick has kind of stripped it down a little bit more. he's got a chart that nbc graphics -- "morning joe" graphics, because they don't give us any money. >> with the help of failing media ties. >> this is to all our viewers who were unsure about how to talk about the klan. it's really simple. don't know if you can read this. klan is bad. they're not good. bad. coming up on "morning joe," with the russia investigation advancing, what would happen if the president started pardoning people in its crosshairs? chief legal correspondent for msnbc ari melber joins us ahead with his new reporting. liberty mutual stood with me

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it is difficult to put the

devastation going on in south texas into words, but matt pierce, a "los angeles times" reporter, did a pretty good job of it. here is how he describes his drive through texas. writing, in part, this -- it's hard to explain the stupefying vastness of the flooding in texas. the nature of the calamity named tropical storm harvey, until you actually try to drive somewhere in it. the rain falls all kinds of ways, in buckets, sideways, in little spits, or just plain regular. but the one thing it absolutely doesn't ever do is stop. it rains in the morning. it rains in the afternoon. it rains in the evening. it rains at night. the rain is less than atmospheric condition at this point than a kind of state of being, like mourning, that can't be forgotten unless you are asleep. and in the pancake flat coastal plains around houston, it is clear that the water once it hits the ground has only one

direction to go -- up over the creek beds, up over the levees, up over the roads, up into your shoes, up into your house, up into your life. driving down the road in the dark, it is impossible to tell whether the traffic is coming the other way -- is coming from somewhere else or if they, too, have turned back. deep down you know it, too. water ahead. it looms in the darkness all around, creeping up in the fields and heading your way. again that's matt pierce writing in the "l.a. times" covering the storm. it is hard to put into words. even the pictures are just staggering. joining us now, the chairman of the house committee on homeland security, republican congressman michael mccaul of texas. good to have you this morning. >> thank you so much for having me. >> so give us a sense. you just heard eloquent writing from the "los angeles times." give us a sense of what you've seen, and also what the state of

texas is enduring right now and what the response from the government is going to be. >> well, they have for create a new killer chart for this, approaching 50 inches of rain. it is hard to imagine this. when you go into these communities, it is waist-high, up to chest high. homes, the first floor is completely under water. this is in areas in my district west of houston which normally don't get this kind of water. it's been raining every day. you see this hurricane. it's been like a monster going in, going out towards the ocean, feeding on the ocean, recharging going back in this a kind of constant, vicious cycle. i thought that "l.a. times" article was spot-on in a very poetic way of the devastation. it is kind of hard to imagine until you see it and the massive magnitude of this. not just in houston now.

it is impacting going northeast towards beaumont, port arthur, and now louisiana. covered in water. >> what are you hearing in terms of at this point rescues, relief efforts, the top concern, the biggest challenge at this point as we are nearing the end of the storm? >> yeah. search and rescue is the most important thing still ongoing as i speak. coast guard is out there. our first responders. we've had 3,600 rescues by coast guard. 3,400 by the houston police department. this has been a great coordinated effort. i've seen other efforts as its chairman of homeland security that have not gone so well, like katrina and rita was not so great. this has been a very -- i think one of the better, if not best recovery i've seen done by federal, state and local. i think part of it had to do with the fa be the that an

emergency declaration was signed early and the process allowing fema assistance to go on. but both the state and locals doing the operational part of this. also just citizens themselves getting out in their boats and saving people. really citizen soldiers getting out and saving people. it's been very encouraging. as i speak here in austin, i'm driving to houston today -- or flying actually by helicopter. i'll be meeting with the emergency operation center there. i just can't stress enough that while the storm is receding now, that the injury and the harm is still very, very clear and present. >> congressman, as you just indicated, the rescue aspect of the storm will go on for days perhaps hopefully successful. all lives will be saved. but the recovery process. the rebuilding process will be even longer, perhaps years in

recovery. are you at all concerned given the hollowing out that's gone under several different federal agencies, are you concerned at all that the local level, the regional level, sba offices, hud offices, epa offices, is there enough personnel in those regional offices in texas to handle the recovery process? >> well, i believe they have it right now the question is at what point is that going to be depleted and we'll need assistance coming in. we note the president here in austin yesterday with the sba, with hud, with fema, talking about this very issue. fema has a $3 billion disaster recovery fund. that will be depleted i think fairly soon as you all well

know, this will be a topic of conversation when we get back into congress, there will be an emergency supplemental bill to deal with this. my grandfather was in the 1900 hurricane where we lost 10,000 people in that hurricane. he survived that. i think we've had a lot of now approaching 15 fatalities. i hope it doesn't get higher than that but it could have been i think a lot worse than that. >> congressman michael mccaul, thank you so much. we wish you the best of luck in all of this. >> thank you, mika. >> thank you so much. by the way, i said something last hour where i just speculated that donald trump's approval rating. boisterous crowd welcoming him. >> right. >> speculation his approval ratings is up in the 60s. our crack staff, andy fowler, pointed out he has -- this is shocking to me.

he's got a 42%. only a 42% approval rating in texas according to gallup in something that they released from the time he was inaugurated until now. 51% disapproval. it's strange how -- it's strange how some of these states are breaking. nick, you actually have donald trump more popular in states like wisconsin and new hampshire than virginia or texas. >> it's really fascinating. look, it could be a number of things. these state polls are not always the best way to understand actual presidential approval ratings. i think we have not yet determined what the shape of trump's base really is from state to state. it is not totally clear to me if you can look at a national poll number and assume that those people are all in the south, are all in the west or a few are in the northeast. he did very well in some places

in massachusetts and new hampshire in the general election. i think that the president's support base is in places where you'll not always confident that you'll find it and we'll learn more and more about that. so let's bring in cnbc's brian sullivan now live in galveston, texas. brian, we've talked this morning about the rising waters in port arthur threatening people in a civic center that was turned into a shelter. now word that the busiest refinery in america also in port arthur is offline. what can you tell us? what's going on? >> reporter: yeah. hi, good morning, guys. i heard what you read about the "l.a. times." i echo that completely. we've been here for four days. it is nice day to day. we've driven through it, gone all the way as far as we could to houston. you couldn't get in. it was almost like a fortress of water. be very clear on one thing. tropical storm harvey -- the storm, whatever you want to call it -- is not over. it's just moved from this region.

people in port arthur about 100 miles to the east of where i am standing are being hammered. that area very flat, low lying and not a lot of place for the water to go. yes, there is going to be a huge economic impact to this story as well. it is hard to talk about, i know. but that's the reality. this is the biggest refinery in the united states is over there. all in all, i'm within about 20 miles of about 3 million barrels a day of gasoline refining. pretty much all of it is offline and there is no word as to when it is going to come back online as well. the busiest port by tonnage is right here. you can't see it but there is ships lined up as far as the eye can see filled with fuel, cars, anything you waptd to bring in and out of this country. talking hundreds of billions of dollars of total economic impact lost. but it is hard to talk about that with the human toll. let me give you a couple anecdotes and you can ask me questions, if you want. we've been in galveston. if you don't know the region -- joe, i know do you. from galveston to houston is about 60 miles. effectively everything between houston and here became a bayou.

we tried to get to houston and couldn't. there's two or three roads. the images the people on the highway, that's interstate 45, we actually sunday morning were i think the first people there. not because we were media. just because we were trying to get to houston and we could not. but i can't say enough about the heroism of the citizen navy as we'll call it. cajun navy. whatever you want to call it. people, doesn't matter what your politics are, what your race is, what your color is, people are coming to help, bringing boats, jet skis, paddle boards, going door to door. the lifeguard here in galveston took a crew up there, guys, yesterday to dickinson, texas where they had an evacuation. they did 160 rescues on jet skis. this story is nowhere being over. it's just shifted. the water is still really, really bad five to ten miles north of where i stand. >> cnbc's brian sullivan, thank you so much for that. we'll talk to you tomorrow. up next, president trump

could use his pardoning power to ends parts of the prosecution in the russia probe. but he can't end all of it. msnbc's ari melber explains next. h the uncertainties of hep c. wondering, what if? i let go of all those feelings. because i am cured with harvoni. harvoni is a revolutionary treatment for the most common type of chronic hepatitis c. it's been prescribed to more than a quarter million people. and is proven to cure up to 99% of patients who have had no prior treatment with 12 weeks. certain patients can be cured with just 8 weeks of harvoni. before starting harvoni, your doctor will test to see if you've ever had hepatitis b, which may flare up and cause serious liver problems during and after harvoni treatment. tell your doctor if you've ever had hepatitis b, a liver transplant, other liver or kidney problems, hiv or any other medical conditions and about all the medicines you take including herbal supplements. taking amiodarone with harvoni can cause a serious slowing of your heart rate.

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knowing where you stand. it's never been easier. except when it comes to your retirement plan. but at fidelity, we're making retirement planning clearer. and it all starts with getting your fidelity retirement score. in 60 seconds, you'll know where you stand. and together, we'll help you make decisions for your plan... to keep you on track. ♪ time to think of your future it's your retirement. know where you stand. if his pardon of joe arpaio is any indication, president trump could potentially look to preemptively pardon staffers, former aides or even family members caught up in the russia case. but according to new reporting from msnbc, while presidential

pardons could halt the federal case, local prosecutors could still pursue state crimes for any american suspected of aiding russia's election meddling. in fact, federal pardons could actually open the door to local criminal investigations in several states. joining us now, msnbc chief legal correspondent and host of "the beat" on msnbc, ari melber, who has that exclusive reporting. also with us, columnist for the daily beast, margaret carlson is with us on set. and from the london school of economics and author of "the despot's accomplice, brian scott. >> we were at the local holiday inn in the smoking lounge. you are actually saying if trump pardons people prematurely, that actually will help prosecutors in possible state cases. >> you hit it on the head, joe. prematurely. we've heard a lot about how

absolute the power of the pardon is. it is true, the supreme court says you can do it any time. most presidents have done it later in the process, not early the way this president pardoned joe arpaio and the way some fear he might do in in russia. the issue is if he moves in early or prematurely, it strengthens local prosecutors potential cases. unlike casper weinberger who was pardoned for lying to congress by president bush, that's federal, done. you pardon that, it's over. wisconsin has nothing to do with whether you lie to congress. this russian hacking, at least on the russia side, touched 39 different states according to the bloomberg report. >> and they all have their own laws. >> they have their own laws so you're looking at computer trespass and tampering, aiding and abetting, criminal conspiracy. >> and your actions touch on that, then you're part of the conspiracy. >> right. so you could have local prosecutions, by the way, of any american. we're not prejudging who might have been involved. you can have a random american

on the tech side, an american who thought they were helping a political candidate but the candidate didn't know about it or as mueller is looking into it, it could go higher. no matter what, there's a lot of confusion about the idea that because the president has absolute pardon power that shuts everything down. our reporting finds depending on the timing and state double jeopardy laws, this could strengthen the local case if cut off prematurely. >> and this would be another example, margaret, of the president who acts like a day trader doing something in the short run to sort of scratch an itch that damages him in the long run. >> right. and certainly sheriff arpaio was premature. it didn't go through the usual standards of the justice department. he probably was sending a signal. you know, pardons are always trouble. they are always fly specked, they never look completely pure. look at what it did to bill clinton at the end of his

presidency when he just recovers from his impeachment and gets hit by the marc rich pardon. this president so relishes king-like authority, that to be above the law he relishes it so much that a pardon is right in his -- >> but it's like there's a button and he keeps pushing a button and a boxing glove keeps hitting him in the side. he never realizes that in our system, which, yes, he's trying to undermine, but in our system there are always checks and balances. and these quick moves, these day trades, always seem to hurt him in the end. >> that's right. the presidency is beholden to these checks and balances, which are working. at the same time, he's doing immense damage to the american democracy in the process. we have rule of law at stake. plitization of institutions. millions of people now believe millions voted illegally because of trump. there's tens of millions of people who believe falsely things about our democracy that is not true.

so trump is damaging us by violating those norms even as the punchback is coming from the institutions. >> that is beautifully put. >> beautifully put, mika says. >> it is. >> it is beautifully put, i'm agreeing with you. we'll take this outside later. but again, i want to go to the first part of what you said. you've written about this nonstop. the safeguards, the democratic safeguards, the checks and balances, right now what grade would you give madison, hamilton and the founders for what they developed. >> they anticipated a president like trump. they didn't anticipate a congress or polarized environment quite like this because they believed that the safeguards would be used by humans. they're not magical. the checks and balances and the constitution are not magical documents. >> so they anticipated actually a corrupt president. they did not anticipate a compliant congress. >> exactly.

>> while there was corrupt -- >> he said i said that beautifully. >> you did indeed. >> well said. >> but beyond this we have to take into account that there are 35% of people who after all of this are still onboard with trump, right? and they see him as doing no wrong. they don't see him as violating these norms. what do we do if tens of millions of people that falsely believe things that are simply not true and believe that it's acceptable to pardon someone like arpaio, it's acceptable to attack jeff sessions for properly recusing himself, who believe that the cbo is fake news. >> can i bring up hamilton? alexander hamilton was writing about what happens if the president commits a crime when he or she is the one that's supposed to faithfully take care of the laws to be executed. they anticipated this to your point. the genius was you can't have any runaway prosecutor going after the president of the united states. that's something that i think donald trump may have overinterpreted, but has generally been the view.

what hamilton wrote was after the president leaves office, they can still, he or she, be indicted and prosecuted like any other citizen. the notion that a president is above the law was anet ma to the founders and they thought about having a congress that does the government oversight part and a law enforcement system that applies to every single person. >> there is something called the law and we have to respect it and note when it's not being respected. >> it's beautiful to talk about the federalist papers and donald trump. there's no -- >> i know, it's unbelievable. nick confessore, you wrote a cover story for "new york times" magazine and it is about donald trump's impact on the d.c. lobbying industry. part of it focuses on the role of corey lewandowski, who continues to play in his administration. here's a part of the piece. unlike other people on k street, lewandowski did not pretend to

be an expert on the legislative calendar or the fine points of the administrative procedure act. he was an expert on trump. there are just so few people in washington who know the president, lewandowski told me in february. it's a comparative advantage. he was not shy about playing up their friendship. i think what i bring is a level of understanding of the president's thought process, he said, only because i had the privilege of being next to him for so long. he was doing as many as nine or ten meetings a day. chief executives, prominent republicans, even other lobbying firms wanted his advice. >> so we talk about how donald trump's broken the mold in so many ways. i think one of the most extraordinary things about the campaign was you didn't have layer after layer after layer after layer of people who worked with him when he was in congress and then worked with him when he was a governor and then worked with him when he was a senator, no. this was just donald trump. and literally there's corey lewandowski and hope hicks were the only two people around him

the overwhelming majority of the campaign. so there is no fix-it guy that you can call outside of the trump administration, unless you call corey lewandowski. >> exactly. there is a small group of people who are trump originals or close to being trump originals, and a whole bunch that went into business on k street. what they learned was k street was going back to an earlier model, right? so the modern lobbying industry has sophisticated, it's policy conscious, it has polling and pr firms. but these guys are a throw back to a phone call. i can change policy with a phone call, i can get in the president's ear. it's back to the original version of lobbying before it became a $3 billion industry. >> the secret is you have to flatter him and take the oath and then you still might get screwed. there you go. sorry, cory, your business now has just within revealed. margaret? >> the piece in "the new yorker" on carl icahn and donald trump, that police was eye-opening.

carl icahn joined in fact to get one thing done, turn over a renewable fuels thing. and it's like steve schwartzman going on the council and getting the saudi arabian deal. no one even hides what they're doing now. it is just a blatant pay-to-play. >> it's always pay-to-play, it's just always pay-to-play. it's cruder now. >> but it was hidden. you at least had the decency to hide it. >> but i'm saying it's more crude now. i know trump, nobody else knows trump. come through me, i'll get you to trump. >> but the joke in the end is actually the playbook is not that complicated. what's happening now is the traditional la aal lobbyists ar realizing, wait a second, if i come to the president and say i have jobs and i'll give you credit publicly, you can sell anything. so the people who thought their only play was i know how trump thinks, it turns out the playbook is pretty simple.

>> this sort of feeds into what your concern has been from the very beginning, sort of autocratic rule. if you're the two or three people that know the autocrat, you control. >> it's not just domestic, it's foreign. we've seen this with trump tower moscow and all entanglements that makes us question something we shouldn't have to question. is he acting in american's interest or his own wallet. ethics have relied on decency and are not hard laws. he needs to codify this stuff and put it into law. >> my understanding was there's no business deals in russia. >> again, we have been so, so numbed by all the lies, the cascading of lies, that you really need to go back to the very beginning. you need to go back to the original greek. mike pence saying, you know -- >> it's a biblical reference.

where mike pence was saying, oh, wait, we never talked to any russians. we were just talking to the american people. and they actually -- they all said that. we never talked -- i mean you've got all of them saying it never happened. >> i'm bringing it in for a landing because the show's over. thank you very much for being -- >> the twins? >> they're coming in the wild card, i think. >> that does it for us this morning. >> thank you guys all. margaret, thank you. >> christine jansing picks up the coverage right now. >> thank you very much. good morning. i am chris jansing in for stephanie ruhle. landfall for a third time. the flooding threat moves to more new towns. even some shelters are now filling with water. >> i think there wasn't no way we could walk out of there, it was too deep. it's like a lake. >> the rescue teams haven't stopped. thousands now pulled from rooftops and from