if you've got a life, you gotta swiffer how do we come to grips with the 2016 election? arguably one of the biggest electoral college upsets in political history. and the first u.s. election likely to have fallen victim to foreign intervention. it's something millions of americans have been asking, even months after the shock of election day. now we're hearing from the woman at the heart of it all, hillary rodham clinton out with a new book called simply "what happened." i spoke to hillary clinton about what happened and also what we do now. take a listen.

>> secretary clinton, hillary rodham clinton, all of my girls love that you got that rodham in there prominently. thank you for doing this. >> thank you, joy. it's really exciting to be here talking to you about this. >> thank you. i want to first of all congratulate you on the book. it is surprising i think in a lot of ways because it's very personal. it's actually very emotional and wonky. was it cathartic or excruciating? >> it was both. it was really painful coming off of a surprising, devastating loss to donald trump and sometimes i would have to read research to make sure i was giving the accurate information and i'd have to go lie down. it was so hard. finally getting through it, it

was cathartic. i'm finding as i travel across the country, it's cathartic for a lot of people, which i feel really good about. >> the thing you hear most often, from people who voted for you, is that this is the hardest thing that they've experienced. has this been worse for you, the trump era, than you expected it to be? >> it has been. i had such deep doubts about his character and his experience but he's even been worse than i thought he'd be. i tried to make space in my concession speech to say regardless of our partisan differences, we want to feel like the person in the oval office really cares about and is looking after everybody.

and that hasn't turned out to be the case. and what a missed opportunity for him because it's what he's been feeding to his supporters. >> throughout the book, one of the threads that run through it, is it sexism and misogyny. i feel like we litigated the question of race, whether or not we could be post racial. have we as a country dealt with the question of whether sexism is prominent in this society? >> no, we haven't. we've made progress. but i devote a whole subject to

this because we need to do this in business and the media and every part of our society. but i think elevating it and making it visible and forcing a conversation about it is absolutely essential. and i tried to be as candid as i could not only about what happened to me that i lived through but what i see happening to women in politics, women struggling to be taken seriously in silicon valley or wherever we see these horrie efforts to turn the clock back on women. >> when you heard or watched on television and heard people, this gutter ral chant of "lock her up," and when you saw the truly awful things that people were wearing on their bodies, i can remember being in cleveland

how did that make you feel? >> well, it was deeply troubling on several levels. and i try to unpack this, because first of all it's not pleasant to be called names and to be subjected to the kind of insults that come across the online media all the time, which we see when women express an opinion. so on a personal level, it was both distressing, but also somewhat problematic because it's one thing for people individually to express those views, but for a candidate running for president of the united states to give permission to those views being put out into the public arena, in fact to encourage it and carry it on, to make it a center piece of his convention, which should be a

time of incredible excitement to have somebody nominated for president and instead was dystopian and negative and pointed against me. when i see women -- it's predominantly white women. let's just be clear about that. i won women. i lost wte women, though i got more white women's votes than obama did in 2012. when i see women doing that, i think why are they publicly disrespecting themselves? why are they opening the door to have someone say that about them in their workplace, in a community setting? do they not see the connection there? and i think that's one of the problems with sexism. we had such a public and still an ongoing movement to expand

civil rights. again, i'm proud of the progress, but we still have a lot of problems we have to confront. because electing barack obama did not end racism, as we know all too well. but it gave the country a chance to say, hey, wait a minute, we are better than this. with sexism, it is still not viewed as the serious threat it is to women's aspirations, to the ability of young girls to imagine themselves doing all kinds of things. so i'm happy to have people disagree with me. i don't agree with her on health or the economy or immigration, whatever they want to disagree with me about. but when they resort to sexism, it says they don't really know what their own arguments are and number two they are opening that door even wider for sexism and

misogynyo be used againsthem and people they love. >> you write about new hampshire and those early days in iowa. i was on that listening tour as part of the media. i can remember talking to particularly young white women who surprisingly enough were more likely than young white men in those two states to say, it doesn't matter me having a woman president. that's not something i prioritize. what is that about? >> i think it's about and i try to unpack it also in the book -- i think it's about the stage that a young woman finds herself at any particular point in time. >> when you graduate high school as a young woman you're pretty much at wage parity with men. once you're in your 20s, you no longer are. once you have a child, marriage, you fall even further behind. you don't understand all of the invisible signals and attitudes that are at work that can hold you back. that's why i've been really proud of young women in silicon valley speaking up. they didn't sign up for sexual harassment and assault. and you don't yet understand all

of these sort of invisible signals and attitudes that are at work that can hold you back. that's why i've been really proud and they didn't sign up for sexual harassment and assault. they didn't sign on for being dismissed and demeaned. they've got the education, the drive and the ambition, a word that should be good for girls as well as boys. but all of a sudden, they're speaking out and saying this is a hostile workplace. we're not going to put up with it. if you haven't yet experienced that -- and that certainly was my observation as i would speak with and hear reports about many young women who thought, okay, we're beyond that. look, i'm doing fine. it's only through more experience -- and this is not to

be a downer. this is just to describe the reality that faces women as you go through the work force and the kind of hidden views about women's place that begin to affect you personally. >> so you do talk a lot about race in the book and the things that you learned along the way, the people who the white working class voters who were with you in 2008, who were suddenly screaming at you in west virginia and kentucky. during the campaign you talked very bluntly about race. you said some things about white privilege, about black lives matter, about police violence and its racial component that really had not typically been said in a campaign. do you believe looking back now that that forthrightness on race is what cost you those white working class voters? >> i think it was a combination of a lot of factors, but that was certainly part of the equation. i thought it was imperative to speak out because i come from a long tradition of standing up against racism, sexism, trying

to expand the circle of opportunity for everybody. and there were things going on in the country that were disturbing to me. i also was struck by the research, which i mentioned in the book, that we had this very successful two-term black american president. i was honored to serve him. i was proud of the job he did. but starting in 2012, scholars who follow race attitudes began to see a backlash that was clearly in part a reaction to president obama, someone who had conducted himself where such dignity, who had done an honorable and excellent job. so i could see that there was beginning to be a turning and i was very disturbed by that. i thought, we need to bring it up. don't pretend you can hide it under the rug or in the corner. but it was something that most likely i paid a political price

for. but as i write in the book about the mothers of the movement, women i came to know who had lost children to gun violence either by gangs on random shooting or police actions, i was so in awe of their strength and their dignity and their faith, i wanted the rest of the country to sort of see that. you can't identify with what you don't know and you never see. so i wanted people maybe through my campaign, which is why i did so much with mothers of the movement, why they travelled with me, spoke on my behalf. we have to create more empathy and understanding again. i don't think it's a job that is ever finished. but as we saw in charlottesville, race is a huge negative force that motivates

these white supremacists and nazis. >> donald trump has created a lot of blunt talk on his views on race. you know his history regarding the central park five, his history regarding housing discrimination in new york. in your view, i mean, this has been said about him, is donald trump a white supremacist? >> i certainly think there's a lot of evidence has to how he has behaved historically and as president. i can't look into his heart. i can't say what he really feels, because i think he is such a political opportunist, that if he could get votes from a different direction, he would probably go there. but he started off from the very first day attacking mexicans,

calling them rapists. he had dog whistles that got increasingly louder on immigrants and latinos and african-americans and women and muslims and the whole panoply of scapegoats that he was holding out to his supporters as the explanation for whatever their grievance was. at i try to say in the book is, look, you need both economic justice and social justice. i was trying to argue for both. i think i had the best plans, the best ideas, the most workable ways of trying to lift incomes and provide a more inclusive economy and tax the wealthy to pay for stuff we needed like infrastructure and so forth. i'm not going to back off social justice. it's one of the great accomplishments of our nation. so much that has said to our fellow americans, regardless of

race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, you're part of the american wonderful experience and you are welcome at the table. come and contribute, make a difference. so i don't think he sees the world that way. i think he sees it in a very dark, divisive way as we heard in the u.n. speech. it's us versus them. his us is very much defined by his own experience and by what we can point to. his us is also how he tried to motivate voters to be for him and he didn't really repudiate david duke, he didn't really repudiate a lot of the white supremacists who came out strongly for him. i called him out in a speech in las vegas in august of 2016 about the so-called alt right, which is certainly very much grounded in white supremacy. so i think he has to be judged on his record. >> we're going to take a quick break. when we come back, hillary clinton will tell you what she thinks of vladimir putin and whether she could have fired jim

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if hillary clinton was esident today, it's safe to say a lot of things would be different. but would former fbi director james comey have a job? maybe not. the book is called "what happened" so i want to get into a few of the what happens. contrary to what some folks have said, you do talk about your own campaign's missteps. let's start with james comey. you're very critical of him. >> yes. >> i want to take you back to 1993 and a president named bill clinton fired the fbi director william sessions. ironically enough, given what we're dealing with today for the hhs secretary for the misuse of planes and cars.

had you have become president of the united states, would james comey have been ushered out in much the same way? >> i thought about that, joy. it's such a hypothetical. i would have certainly looked hard at it. as i write in the book, much of what he did violated department of justice protocol. it was unprecedented. it was outside the bounds of what prosecutors do, let alone an investigator, which what his job was. that troubled me, because you don't want people acting rashly, impulsively, or in this case, as some have suggested, under pressure for political purposes. so i would have had to really think hard about that. now, what i believe strongly and the case i make in the book is separate out what he did to me, which i think was wrong,

unprecedented and ultimately cost me the election because of the october 28th letter and what he was doing on russia. you can be critical of what he did in the e-mail investigation, but you can also be very critical of trump deciding to fire him over the russia investigation. you have to keep those two competing thoughts in your head at one time. >> you talk about the russian interference in the election. you were obviously during the campaign getting intelligence or word that, listen, there's hacking going on, there is an attack on the country from russia that is attempting to interfere in the election. the president knew it. presumably the trump campaign was getting the same information. at this point do you believe that the trump campaign colluded to assist russia in interfering in our election? >> i don't think we can reach that conclusion.

i think there are lots of facts that are being proven every day, that there was certainly communication by e-mail, phone, in person. there was certainly an attempt by many of the trump associates to hide the connections that they had with representatives of the russian government and people close to putin. we know that putin was intent upon helping trump. that's no longer subject to debate. we knew that he wanted to defeat me. that's also accepted. now what we're finding out is how some of that happened. the interference with the election included everything from what we now know about facebook ads and posting. i was so amused when senator mark warner pointed out the

facebook ads were paid for with rubles. we now know that without a doubt that the dnc had materials stolen through russian intelligence efforts, through cyber attacks, which then migrated to wikileaks. we know a lot, but i'm going to leave it to the investigators in both the congress and the special council to actually come up with whatever legal conclusions. were there laws broken, what more do we need to know. i want to make this point. it's really important to say this. even if there was not all of this smoke around the trump campaign's involvement with the russians, we should still be really upset and determined to

do something about it. if i had been elected president and i knew this was out there, even if in some other alternative universe it helped me instead of my opponent, i would have demanded we do an independent commission with all the authority needed, subpoena power to get to the bottom of this because it's not going to stop. it has been too successful for putin. now we're hearing these bragging comments from russian media persons, from russian members of parliament and their government saying, yeah, you know, we picked a president. we won an election. that should terrify every american. i don't care what party you are. maybe it was me today. it could be somebody else tomorrow. trump has this phony voter fraud commission which is not a problem that anybody besides the most rabid republins want to

pursue in order to suppress even more votes, particularly african-americans and young people so they can try to further pervert the electorate to elect their candidates. they should be having a five alarm committee that is looking at everything that we can do to protect ourselves. virginia just stopped using touch screen computer voting because it's so vulnerable. we need to look at all the voting machines. every secretary of state needs to be assisted in making sure they are not being hacked and attacked. i know the russians had a heavy thumb on the scale and i know it affected voters, because we track it in the book about what people were looking at primarily when they dumped all the wikileaks stuff. and we know they had to have gotten really good advice about how to be political strategic in doing that. >> you write in the book that

part of you wished president obama at the time had come out and given a big national address to warn americans of russian interference. have you spoken with former president obama about that? >> i talked to him a couple of weeks ago. i haven't had a chance to sit down and talk with him, i've been really so focused on getting the book done. but i've talked to people from the white house. here's how i so this. first of all, when something unprecedented happens, it is hard to know what to do. he thought i was going to win. he told me that the night before in philadelphia, big hug, so proud of you, you're going to do this. he andichelle uld have been better in supporting and advising me. and i think he didn't want to look like he was in any way using the office of the presidency to partisan ends. obviously he was campaigning for me, but this is a national security issue.

i also think that he was under pressure from the other side. and i write about this. mitch mcconnell basically threatened the white house and the democratic leadership in the congress, if you go public with the intelligence we have been provided, we will call it partisan. >> does that make them complicit? >> i think there is a lot of questions about it. but he in particular acted in a partisan rather than patriotic manner. harry reid, who like everyone who was briefed on this intelligence, was really upset and tried to keep forcing comey, because my other problem with comey is he was perfectly happy to talk about a really dumb mistake i made with e-mails that became an even dumber scandal, but he wasn't willing to tell anybody, oh yeah and we're investigating trump and the russians. he would not do that. so harry reid wrote him in i

think late august basically saying, come on, there are reports in the press, get out there and tell the american people. now, having said all that, of course i wish there had been some way given the predicament the president found himself in to alert the public. once i lost and all this ton of information started flooding out about everything that was happening, the dutch were able to prevent russian interference in their election, the french could prevent it, the germans are working to prevent it, because they all knew. and they could make the case to their electorate. you may be whatever party you are, but we cannot tolerate a foreign adversary trying to pick our next lea >> you've been in public life for a long time. but the thing people knew was e-mails. what do you make of political journalists? you're tough on the media in

this book and the coverage of your e-mail server. what do you make of people who say the e-mail scandal was not the media's fault, it was your fault? >> i made the mistake. trump had a million mistakes before he ever ran and once he declared to run. that didn't matter. the e-mails was a constant date. i've talked to members of the press. look, i am a huge proponent of the first amendment and we need a really smart, savvy press. and here's what members of the press have basically said to me. first of all, yeah, it was a legitimate subject to cover. we over did it. i couldn't agree more. especially when you compare that in 2016 there were only 32 minutes on tv -- i guess that's the five major networks -- devoted to all policies. so i don't blame voters for not knowing that i had gang busters college affordability and a gang

busters way to fix and better affordable care act and everything else. 32 minutes for all policies and 100 minutes on my e-mails. after a while, there was nothing new to say. all of the crazy accusations were just not true and you can read it and you can see. it's not my voice. it's people who have credibility on these issues. that really did bother me. it was way over hyped. again, there was this attitude like you're going to win anyway, so we have to vet you harder. trump is the reality tv show candidate. you're going to be the next president. which is a terrible assumption to make. because what we found in this election is it really matters how the press covers someone who is so unusual as trump was with the same tough standards consistently.

you don't give him 30 minutes of podium time, an empty podium. you need to be going after all the things he did to people, you know, his scandals, his bankruptcies. yeah, you report it, but hey, that hurt real people. there was no evidence anything i did ever had any impact. so i think there was such a disproportionate response, a lack of understanding about be fair if you're going to cover me like this, cover the other guy like this. if you look at those words clouds, e-mail dominates mine and terrorism and immigration dominates his. the exit polls were interesting. for people who cared about the economy, i won those voters. if you cared about immigration or terrorism, he won those voters, even though i was the one in the situation room advising the president about going after bin laden. it would not have matters except for james comey's october 28th letter. we weathered his preference, which was so unfair and wrong. we weathered, you know, all of the attacks coming from trump and his people. we had a great convention.

i won three debates. we were really riding momentum. and then people had every reason to wonder what does this mean. and i don't know why he did it. i think it's very telling that rudy giuliani knew he was going to do it two days before. there was a lot of reporting that giuliani and current and retired members of the fbi were dead set against me and so they were pressuring comey to do even more. the whole thing i think reflects very badly on his judgment and his objectivity. >> more of my one on one interview with hillary clinton, next. where are we?

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care? that turns out to be a question that she didn't want to miss. i was getting the hands, the flashing hands. >> we could have gone on and on and on. >> we could have. i wanted to ask you. this has been giving me agita for the last couple of days, whether democrats jumped the gun ongoing for single payer. >> can we ask one more question? >> can we do that? >> hear what she says, next.

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how does the democratic party defend its legacy and find a way forward? i wanted to ask you we've seen this past week, the senator from vermont, the independent

senator bernie sanders and democrats, more than a dozen democrats roll out a single payer plan, medicare for all. in your view, was it a mistake to roll out single payer while republicans are still actively trying to repeal obamacare? >> look, it's an aspirational goal. i'veong been committed to universal health care that's high quality and affordable for everyone. i know we've got a long way to go. i am a staunch supporter of the affordable care act because it got us to 90% coverage and we only had 10% more to go. i think this last gasp threat that the republicans are posing is incredibly serious. i don't think anybody should be spending time on anything else right now until we defeat it again. that means all the energy that you can bring to making the arguments against it, don't divert our discussion right now. let's finish that off. they talked about repeal and replace for years.

it was a fraud, it was phony. they need to be held accountable for that. and what they have put forward now would devastate 32 million americans who would lose their coverage. it puts medicaid on a path to be basically eliminated. don't listen to what they say otherwise because that's exactly what they're trying to do. it removes essential benefits, everything from pregnancy and maternity care and well child visits and mental health and addiction services. it's a disaster. it's mean. it's cruel. everybody needs to be standing up and saying the same thing right now. and if you are someone with followers and constituents who you can mobilize to make their views known or even speak on behalf of people in other states where there may be a republican senator who can be influenced, that's what everybody should be doing.

i'm tweeting about it. i'm speaking about it. because it's a lot easier to get from 90 to 10 than to start all over. let's make sure that while people are arguing this debates of this aspirational goal and the best way to get to universal coverage, that we don't put anybody's life at risk, that we don't deny people their human right to have health care. that's what i'm going to keep talking about. >> it's pretty remarkable that when it was called hillary care when you were first lady, the republican response was bob dole's plan which was similar to obamacare. >> that's right. >> the party has changed. >> because they are enthrall to their biggest idealogical, partisan donors. the forces at work in the republican party right now are really driven by ideology, religion, partisan advantage and

commercial advantage. they keep saying -- i mean, one of the republican senators sd the other day, well, yeah, it's probably pretty bad but we promised we'd do it. what a total abdication of responsibility to the people you are supposed to represent. you don't have a better idea. there's been some bipartisan efforts to try to come up with some better ideas. those have been stopped now because republicans want to force through this terrible trojan horse, making these claims that are easily dispelled. i want to give a shoutout to jimmy kimmel who has used his own personal experience with the birth of his son to really hold the republicans accountable. we can't let them get away with these outrageous, untrue comments. that's what everybody needs to be doing. we've got until september 30th. once september 30th comes then they have to get 60 votes.

they no longer have the chance to pass it with 51. i'll breathe a big sigh of relief if we can hold it off and make sure it doesn't happen. >> i'd like you to see just one more clip from our interview. how hillary clinton will one day explain what happened to her grandchildren. you have a granddaughter. she's about to turn 3. >> she is. >> how will you explain this period in your life when she's old enough to understand it? >> i have thought about that, because whenever she could, i was so happy to see her on the campaign trail. she saw our campaign slogan, the h with the arrow and she would point at it d sagrandma, you know. so obviously i am motivated by what we need to do for kids for the next generation, not just mine, but everyone's. i think i will explain to her pretty much in line with what i

explained in the book. i wrote this book for myself, first and foremost, to really come to grips with what happened and what my role in it was and what all these other extraneous factors were. because i don't want what happened to happen again and i lay out a lot of evidence. i say, look if you have a different theory, i'll meet you at dawn. i'm open to it. it's not enough to say, i won 3 million more votes. to dismiss my campaign, it's not just me, it's 65.8 million people. i wrote it for them too. i wrote it for people who were so devastated by what happened in this election and continue to be just upset and even stunned by what trump is doing.

i want them to know, it's okay, it's okay to feel like that, because this is abnormal. and we can't ever give up our feelings that there is something amiss with the man we've got in the white house right now. i want them to read this book and get more ammunition and support for how they are feeling, because i think it's important that we never give up resisting and protesting against what we see is bad for our country and bad for the world. and i will explain that to charlotte and when he's old enough to aidan, because i have known a lot of presidents now. i've met them, i've worked for them, i was married to one. i had disagreements with a lot of them, not just republicans, on my side too. but i never doubted that they were trying to figure out how to keep this big, diverse, raucous, wonderful country of ours together and moving forward with optimism and energy. that's not what we have right now. and i don't want my

granddaughters and grandson or any child to feel like this is normal, that it's normal for a president not to condemn white supremacy and neo nazis and klu klux klan and racism and sexism. it's not normal for someone to hold the highest office and to cavalierly talk about nuclear war and to be unguided, in fact, rejecting facts and reason and evidence. it's just not normal. so i will hopefully at some point when she's a lot older be able to try to explain that to her. >> former secretary of state hillary rodham clinton, appreciate for your time. >> thank you, joy, so much for what you do. >> more "am joy after the break." ♪

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in your view, strategically, was it a mistake to roll out

single payer while republicans were actively trying to repeal obamacare? >> i've long been committed to universal health care that's affordable for everyone. i think this last-gasp threat that the republicans are posing is incredibly serious. i don't think anybody should be spending time on anything else right now until we defeat it again. >> hillary clinton was particularly passionate about addressing the republican effort to repeal and replace obama care during our interview. back with me now to discuss, it was a different hillary clinton. she was very intimate, loose, relaxed, is that maybe because she's not involved in politics anymore? ? i thi >> i think that's exactly t she said i'm not running for political office. i get to put it out there in my

voice. i started reading the book. i haven't finished it yet. and she really gives you insight as to ha swhat she was thinking. it's honest. it's real. but what i took away from this was the stark contrast you see between her and donald trump, the thoughtfulness, that showe' smart, she understands, she's passionate about the constitution. >> she kept coming back to this idea. it wasn't the bipartisan default, sometimes in our own profession. it was more than president of both parties had a core believe in uniting the country, doing policy that's god for all citizens whereas donald trump is narrowly focussed on getting his base to applaud. >> for him. it's all about donald trump. and we saw that, we saw that in the transition of power from obama and donald trump.

and also the horrible speech that president trump gave at the inauguration, every president before him would give a uniting speech. they know they just came out of an election, let's bring the country together. donald trumps ha notten abos no to do that. >> do you think the left is too divided to listen to her ? >> not at all. when the march occurred people wanted toear from hillary clinton. should she go to a march, should she say something? she decided she was going to step back and let it play out. i remember friends were like, where's hillary? we need to hear from her. she won more votes than the guy we have in the oval office, so yes, people, she won the popular vote. people want to hear from her.

>> it's a bittersweet thing to hear a woman who's a policy wonk, a grandma and she's thought these things through, and she's not president because of the electoral college. thank you. that's our show. keep it right here on msnbc. it'! it's me? alright emma, i know it's not your favorite but it's time for your medicine, okay? you ready? one, two, three. [ both ] ♪ emma, emma bo-bemma ♪ banana-fana-fo-femma ♪ fee-fi-fo-femma ♪ em-ma very good sweety, how do you feel? good. yeah? you did a really good job, okay? [ female announcer ] to nurses everywhere, thank you, from johnson & johnson. whentrust the brand doctors trust for themselves. nexium 24hr is the number one choice of doctors and pharmacists for their own frequent heartburn. and all day all night protection. when it comes to frequent heartburn, trust nexium 24hr.

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