can you believe it? >> so bipartisan. >> so last night i'm grieving over our president, i'm seeing all of his tweets and all of the terrible things that were happening yesterday and then like a lightning bolt, willie, you see mike barnacle tweeted. i might as well get on the band wagon. a fun team to watch. >> you won't be able to go home to boston today. >> they are a fun team to watch. they are. >> that's undeniable. >> mike tweetest barnacle. i don't know. >> just loves good baseball t. yankees are playing. c'mon. these upstart yankees, these scrappy little yankees. >> there is nothing fun about watching the yankees, right? >> i didn't say i enjoyed it, it would be great fun to see them lose, but they're fun. >> oh my gosh.

welcome my friend in the age of trump. >> you say one thing you back pedal later when you presented with the evidence. >> what about the d.r.e.a.m.ers, make? >> we got pulitzer prize his storian john meacham here. from abc news, america catty kay and msnbc, mark halperin, a man who would never think of tweeting, but the yankees are finance to watch. >> mike september me an e-mail last night, he described them as lovable. >> that's true. mark halperin. >> i'm going to the reserve halperin file. >> as the little shop of horrors continue. >> i haven't seen mike worked up this much in years. >> he should have never said that last night. willie, let's go over, you one

out of emotion, you really do, i think there are so many things coming at us yesterday that were shocking, that were disappointing. that were depressing. and by the end, i just constantly try to get context to this and figuring out what's the best response, what's the proper response, being shocked and outraged, which you should be. at this point i'm starting to think that's not the proper response, because that's exactly what he wants. he wants you to be shocked. you know, other people, good frndz i respect for good reason, talk about being depressed. i understand being depressed about this, too. but that's the wrong emotion, too. because that puts you back on your heel so i don't know, willie, if we can get to a point where we can be unemotional as americans about this. but i do know that when we get enraged, which we all have, and

which i certainly have time and time again, we're playing right into his happened. that's what he wanted. somebody tweeted. i thought it was a great insight at the end of the day, i think it was nick contessori at the "times" who said donald trump took a question about him, not recognizing the sacrifice of four americans and turned it into an entire news cycle of fact check and fights and battles and in the process, did something and i say this without emotion, utterly despicable, regarding john kelly's dead son and now it's put john kelly in a position where i don't know how he continues without an explanation of how donald trump, the man he works for, uses his son's death as a political, just

as a political throw-away line. that's what he did. there is no mistaking it. he used the kelly family's hor risk loss, just as a parallel throw away on talk radio. >> chief kelly lost his son in yank. general kelly brought him into the conversation yesterday. it continued last night. the white house says president trump called the family now, four u.s. troops killed by isis in niger two weeks ago today, the widow was in the car on the way to the arrival of her husband's remains when the president called. sergeant johnson's pregnant widow spoke to him on speaker phone, surrounded by family as well as her congress woman, florida democrat frederica wilson who recounted the reporters what president trump said. >> he was saying that he was sorry that she had his sympathy.

but he was hoping that even though her husband gave his life for his country, sarcasm, he said sarcastically he said, but you know he must have known what he signed up for. how could you say that to a grieving widow? i couldn't believe and he said it more than once. >> what did she say? >> she didn't say anything, she simply listened to what he was saying. he just talked and talked and talk and he really never showed any real compassion for what she was feeling. >> what the family want toss hear, they want to hear words of encouragement, words of how he fought for his country, what his sacrifice meant to this country. not you know what you signed up for. >> so let's just sort of recap

what we heard there. so you had those two women riding in the car with sergeant johnson on the way to the airport to meet johnson's remains. they were on speaker phone when the president criticized for not calling. he says the condolences, he said your husband knew what he was getting no still obviously a tragedy and my heart goes out for your husband, he knew what he was getting into when he signed up for missions like this. >> john meacham, you put this into a long list of strain him, bizarre, interactions that the president has on a daily basis. i mean, we could findden ten, 11, 12 yesterday of public record that just again shows a complete disconnect from the rest of humanity, a complete disconnect from compassion, a complete disconnect from basic

human emotions we teach our children from the time they are two or three years old, why don't we go and stay on this story? but when you tell john mccain a war hero, who is -- has the most progressive form of brain cancer, who is fighting for his life, when you offer a threat, say i'm coming at you and i can be mean or whatever childish thing he said, oh, he just will never get it. he's never gotten it. and this has nothing to do with politics. this has everything to do with his lack of humanity. you know what you do, when somebody is dying, when somebody is, within somebody is fighting for their lives the way he has, sometimes you just sit banged you let it go by and you end up winning.

>> and you are the president of the united states, post-importantly. >> so, even as a candidate, maybe things make a little more sense, but at this point it's a pathology. the lack of human empathy, which is fought simply a personal failing, but it's also gentleman to have important diplomatic and important consequences. >> let me ask you this, as far as personal feeling goes, i got into this yesterday on the show and a little after the show, we're from the south. and what at least our generation was taught is constantly being polite. people would come from across the country and my friends would come from the north. everybody is so polite. everybody is so kieventd. people i don't even know say hello to me. take them to church. you know, that's what the south had gentleman for it, you know,

we have had our problems, but as far as being kind to people that were coming down here, we always took pride in. you know, your parents i'm sure at times, my parents at times would say, that is not how a southern gentleman treats a lady. open the door. walk behind, do this. carry that. for yankees, and i know you are one, barnacle. but for yankees, it's hard to know how much that actually is pounded into your head every day, your friends, there is even peer pressure. you don't talk to somebody that way and yet you have the spire south it seems, you have eadvantage gel cals, pharisees, lead yourself cow telling to this horrific man who has no

humanity and is the antithesis of everything we were taught growing up in the south about how you treat other people. >> and i think there's going to be some kind of reckoning, basically, the republican party, a lot of as you say a lot of our fellow southerners have sold their soul for temporal power and the check is bouncing. and i think that the cultural ubique whichty of this president is fascinating to me. andrew jackson started as the president as the central figure. lincoln the war president, tr understand stood the national media, made his kids and nobody has ever been as top of mind as the 45th president of the united states. i don't think ultimately that's a good thing. you know what john adams said, i studied politics and war so my

son can study engineering and geography. he studies that so his son canned if leicester and philosophy. we are back to point a. >> mika and i were walking out of a restaurant a couple weeks ago. we heard people at every table talking about trump. none of it was positive. none of it was positive. everybody was concerned. everybody was nervous. this was in a republican area by the way. we get out of the restaurant and i turn to her and i said, you know, he doesn't care that everybody in there thinks he is destroying america t. only thing he cares about is that they're talking about him. >> he cares about the need to be right. he is always right. he is never wrong. he needs the attention. he wants to be the focus of attention. he wants to be a great piece in the washington post. he wants to be in fight mode. on this issue of fallen soldiers, it was interesting. i reached out to somebody, his father-in-law had tved in the military, voted for donald trump and this was the issue that was turning him.

he said, you cannot talk about fallen soldiers like this. can you not bring politic noose the lives of the families that have suffered this way and maybe in picking a fight with obama the press, over this incident. i'm skeptical to say it, there have been so many times, calling john mccain the war hero, this will be it, this will be the moment where donald trump loses support. i don't know. but this may be something that even his base finds difficult to swallow. >> let me answerer that. you know it will not. >> that's where i am, too. it was interesting to hear from one person who felt otherwise. >> it will not. mike. this is the worst of all wofrldz in that he's not going to be so extraordinarily unpopular that he finally gets the message.

>> that, you know, he has to change his ways. at the same time, he can't govern the way he's operating now. we are -- we are in a ditch. this country is stuck in a ditch and it's not going to move forward, because he will not be able to get 50 votes for practically anything he wants in the senate. >> joe, there are no words to convey with the what the president of the occupation did yesterday by injecting john kelly's son into a political argument and with all due respect, to john meacham, you have to go into the way back machine. you have to go to history to measure it. you have to go to june 9th, 1954, when robert welch, the lawyer, represented the united states army in the army mccarthy hearings against senator joseph mccarthy of wisconsin, a truly

vial figure in american history at the peak of the cold war, at the peak of fear of communism being injected into the american political system, when joseph welch looked at joseph mccarthy with the tv cameras going and said, senator, ununtp until now never gauged your cruelty or your recklessness, have you no sense of decency, sir? joe mccarthy had no sense of dekenneth sency, now that's the question we are saddled with regard to the sitting president of the united states. >> a couple of days ano in the rose gasheden. the president made the claim president obama had not called the families of fallen soldiers a claim that's not true. he wrote in his chief of staff and mentioned kelly and said obama ma never called his son. here's what the president said about that yesterday during a radio interview. >> they asked me that question and for the most part to the best of my knowledge, i think i called every family of somebody

that's died. as far as other representatives, i don't know, you could ask general kelly, did he get a call from obama, you could ask other people, i don't know what obama's policy was. >> soon of that interview, an anonymous white house official said president obama never called kelly when his son, the second leiutenant robert kelly was killed in combat in 2011, white house visitor logs showed the obamas hosted kelly and his wife at a breakfast for gold star families after his son died. they said they were seated at first lady michelle obama's table. >> and the question the not whether he did or did not the question is actually again that this president would so flippantly use the death of his chief of staff's son the tragedy, that family's tragedy, again as a throw away line from a fight that he should have not even engaged in.

a fight over attacking other presidents. again, mark halperin. these are throw away lines for fights that he should not engage in. this does him no good. this does the country no good. >> this makes me profoundly sad as anything that's happened in the last few months to make these families who had suffered pay the ultimate sacrifice to make them a part of this. whether general kelly or sergeant johnson by criticizing president obama by bringing in generalically's son. i think it's a sad thing t. president bears most of the responsibility for this, for shaping this discussion. i do think, i'll say, not to be correct am of this program. but the coverage in the last 12 hours in general. they create conflict between the family and the president was a

mistake. we don't know exactly what was said on the call. >> what does general kelly do next? how does general kelly, that showed the passing of his son and really a lot of our production to general kelly was reading that extraordinary speech he gave about sacrifice of these families, so what do we expect from generalically next? >> i think and i hope he can convince his president, to take this off the table. not the subject of tweets and political attacks and talk radio, really, there are so many topics the president uses for short-term political desires and lashing out, this should not be one of them. >> mike barnacle, what does president kelly do next? i wonder how any of us. we understand he is in there

serving his country. it's extraordinarily difficult for him. we understand he would much latter not be in there. does he have to say something about this? >> john kelly reports for duty to serve his country this morning. john kelly reports for duty to the white house this morning. >> so even if you have a supervisors, a commander-in-chief. >> i would hope, pray and think that general kelly would speak to the president of the united states to address what mark halperin indicated. take this off the table. it's far bigger than robert kelly's death. it has to do with everyone who dies in the service of this country. they should not be injected into the daily discourse of politics. they should just not be injected into this. >> bob meacham, i would ask you about parallels, but there are no parallels for a group of advisers around a president who

are staying there, just to hold a line against sheer insanity completely envelopeing the entire rock house, the entire administration. it seems that's where we are. general kelly now even has to endure this because he fears what comes next if he leaves. >> right. >> the closest thing is secretary of defense jim slazinger issued an order that any military order from the nixon white house towards the end had to be cleared by him. general haig was playing a remarkable role in '73, '74, but let's go to mike's point, what is the inflexion point? it did take until '54 for that to happen, for mccarthy to be broken. when does a fever break? because in a republic, we're only as good as the sum of our

parts. and a significant amount of the country is enabling this president to behave this way. and why on god's earth has he twice managed to smash his twitter finger and his social media pinball finger on fold star families? he did it last year, he did it this week and i think part of the explanation must be we often attack that which we fear. >> right. >> i think when you talk about general kelly'sson, those people represent a level of sacrifice, a little of engagement, with the lives of others of which this man is incapable of. >> he attacks john mccain. >> senior mccain. >> john mccain of being again a prisoner of war who refused to

come home, continued to be tortured, he wasn't coming home without his band of brothers, while donald trump was dodging the draft, four five times, claiming he had foot spurs while he was playing football, golf, tennis and chasing with im. >> and here's the thing, it trickles down, right? so even in this particular instance, i do agree with mark. we have to be careful how we talk about this. i think the democratic congress woman and councilwoman from southern florida also should be more careful than they're being about how they talk about that phone call and coming out to the press to make this a political statement, it's the whole environment and the conversation becomes more toxic because everybody from both sides feels they want to get in on it and defend their corners. >> that does come from the president, but those individuals also need to take responsibility for what they say. >> the congress woman by the way

who related the details will be on our show coming up later. so we can get into some of that with her. we know how this happened, donald trump heard a criticism at a rose garden press conference. he can't let a criticism go unanswered. he has to say, well, obama did it, too. he's like, i have been told. so that was, we heard directly from general kelly or someone else that he was called about the death of his son. now it bill a story, he said, general kelly, you got to let nbc news and others know it was you. so that confirms what i said at the rose garden, bring general kelly into that is appalling. i just hope we can settle this matter and leave fallen soldiers and their families out of the political conversation. >> agreed. still ahead on "morning joe" -- >> they hold you in total and complete context. they think that you're a group of morons, but if you gave me

the choice between being governed by the first 100 people that showed u tonight by the rally or the top 100 partners at goldman sachs. i would take the first hundred people here. >> this is awkward, the audience, steve bannon thinks you are the fools. he thinks that i guess he -- i guess he doesn't think you can read because steve bannon listen he worked for goldman sachs, i'm not knocking working for goldman sachs, willie and i have been trying to get jobs there for decade, they will not let us who, in goldman sax. they are smart guys. the arrest in turkey in '73, it's a bridge to for. for steve bannon to talk to you and say they think you're morons.

kwoept feel th i don't want people that work at goldman sachs to work in the white house. did you notice he's looking chubier than usual, because the mersers like billionaires, they're shoving money in his pocket. he's out to here with money, he's like that florida congressman on abscam trying to run out the door with money packed in his coat actually he thinks are you a moron. don't be that moron. we'll talk about that and much more. you are watching "morning joe." i hope you are having a great morning. looking for clear answers for your retirement plan?

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my goal is the leader of the republican party in the senate is to keep us in the majority t. way you do that is not complicated. you have to nominate people who can actually win because winners make policy and losers go home. >> the last couple of days, mitch has been saying this big thing, hey, you got to win, winners make policy, losers go home. hey mitch, note to self, mitch, big luther australian him and little bobby corker are both going home. these people, mitch, it's 2-0. >> can you believe that guy right there is the guy that like put acid in his bathtub and pad locks an owl of his doors and fled, can you believe how pumped up that guy is getting right now? >> he's feeling himself right now. >> the mercers are funding

everything that happens just pouring money down his throat, every day, it's going to be interesting. i hope they're happy with what's happening in alabama. i hope they will be happy if they get this coner race theorist out in arizona. i hope they're happy. it's all on them. it's all on their shoulders. >> it will be interesting to watch as that plays out a. really interesting race. >> it is. >> it is. >> we got some poll toss show from you alabama. >> that of course is white house strategist steve bannon. he showed up to boost the candidacy of kelly ward and the republican challenge to incumbent republican and trump critic senator jeff flake, meanwhile, a new poll shows the republican candidate steve bannon backed the u.s. senate race is now tied with the democrat there. the latest poll has roy moore and democratic doug jones tied at 42% among alabama's

registered voters. reporters picked up roy moore gained 20,000 twitter followers just over the weekend. >> that's impressive. >> 1,100 bearing russian language names and descriptions. the moore campaign denied only in or suggested that jones campaign of democrats were pulling a political stunt. >> that's a real crimson tide. you know, there is, people don't know this, but right out if you are looking for where no, where russian immigrants are, number one, brooke len. number two, op alabama right behind op alabama, rachl, alabama, check it on your map. >> ft. payne? >> i'm not so sure a. lot of bulgarians, a rab, a ton of them. >> so when he stops his rallies with international. some said that alabama poll is

an outlier, if it's close, you got a race down there. >> you do, mark halperin, most conservatives that i follow and respect, who are skeptical of trump are also skeptical of that poll. they don't believe it is that close. i'll just say, it is a fox news poll and the fact that you have anything nearly that close is fascinating. will you have people looking at bam on election night and a lot of people looking obviously in virginia, too, which had a poll out that had eddie dplespy up by one point. there are skeptics regarding that poll the monmouth poll i think it was. >> democrats have it in almost every state if you increase the turnout of arkin americans the contribution of the vote for the democrat. you can make things that shouldn't be raced historically into a race. if the democrat wins that race,

it will be a cataclysmic event for the talk about steve bannon recruitment of candidates and the republican party will be doing a lot of soul searching. so it will be tempting for democrats to go in there and win that seat. i expect will you see more polling to see whether that poll is an outlier or fought. >> it has been an outlier, but when you have the stories that have come on the heels of roy moore's primary victory, regarding money he got from a charity, these russian, the russian influence on his twiths feed, even, again, there are a lot of people in alabama that go, okay, you know what, i'll still support trump, i don't know that i can take a buy the that's been kicked off the court twice, seems to like russians, and took money from a charity. >> i think he's a lot like

trump, roy moore will have a base, they won't believe the russian story about twitter. they'll stay with him until the establishment comes after him. it will be those people in the middle, republicans more like you, joe, who have to make a decision between voting for that man right there, roy moore, a democrat or not voting at all. so we'll see what happens, there is also a generic ballot poll showing democrats may have the upper hand in this year's congressional elections when voters were asked, which party's congressional candidate they would vote for, democrats hold a 14-point lead over republicans, 51% to republicans, that's a generic poll out of cnn. >> that's a massive divide, obviously, i can't recall seeing a generic ballot test that was that, the deference between these parties are so great. >> with we have numbers like that exist t. democratic brand

now stands for anti-trump t. republican brand is in sambles. is the republican party the mitch mcconnell, donald trump party, zooev steve bannon party? they've not accomplished very much. numbers like that alabama raised the troubles the, this is a tough time, which is the past successes, tax reform will cure what ails them. their brand is close to crisis. where you get that generic number of the parties. >> we'll talk to acting attorney general sally yates who says she learned about the original ban by reading about it on the internet. she joins the conversation ahead on "morning joe."

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joining us now the chief

national correspondent for the "new york times" magazine, mark leibovitz is here. good morning. you are from town for the nfl meetings? >> can i ask him a question? >> yes, please. >> you seen many conversions, political and spiritual, how shocked were you to be at home last night watching, watching the yankees and the astros and find out mike barnacle has become a yankees fan? >> i think one of the things of covering politics and being a sports fan for a living, you learn to be -- >> oh. >> ultimately the people you thought you could believe in are going to one day. >> take the picture of ted williams off and put -- [ lost audio ]

>> thanks. >> he was thrown about, somebody -- >> anyway, i was twitter form throwing a bat at his fans last night. anyway. >> there doesn't mean terribly much for me. at this point i am feeling sorry for mike. i ap switching sides. >> thank you, catty. >> mike, if it was fun to watch, i am very glad you said that. >> thank you. >> what about the nfl? >> what about the nfl? >> what about it? >> well, it's, what's correct is i'm writing a book of nfl as a rest from politic, which i usually do in my day job now the world versus collided. >> what are you going to call it? >> i'm thinking this league or this down. you get it, you get the rhyme. i'm in town for the nfl meetings, the owners are meeting to discuss what to do with the national anthem protests, it looks a like they will not mandate or rules saying the players must stand for the anthem. i think what people are looking for today the owners will speak,

jerry jones or the more outspoken owners will speak and more to the point when and if the president will weigh in, he seems to love this issue. >> tv ratings are down this year, bless you, catty, some of the stadiums, look at kickoff, a lot of empty seats in the stadiums, contradiction of the nfrl attribute that to the kneeling and the fans that lost touch with the players and vice-versa, are the owners worried about that running offer fans, or do they say it's because of other reasons? >> i think both. i think they are worried about their bottom lean, you can argue what trend line toss look at ratings wise, a lot of the ratings and theed him the, empty seats have been attributed to factors like hurricanes and power out if large sections of florida, texas the california situation for the team is a mess, for the league is amess, because san diego now l.a. no one seems to want them there. san francisco isn't drawing, so forth. >> so you were over there

yesterday at the nfl meetings, for the book -- >> it's not a bad idea, although tuesdays with reince was better, he's a far more colorful figure. >> isn't this all about business, all about money? >> it's largely all about money. i think in this particular case it's about moving on, they say, we want to return this to the communities and talk about social issues, not true, they want this to return to football. what we've seen over the first few weeks is the public and the nfl fans have kind of an inkling they want to return. they want this issue to recede. this issue was about four players kneeling two weeks into the season, trump then weighs in, 4 u. players knelt the following sunday. >> do the owners realize this is not about the flag or the star spangled banner? >> i don't think e i don't think it matter what is the owners realize, they realize what their fans will perceive and whether it will alienate the league. ultimately the bottom line issue hasn't hurt them that much yet.

can you look at a few rating trend lines, but there are a lot of other factors involved. >> this decision is temporary for the time being. is there a sense at some point there will be sanctions and we will move down the road? >> a metaphor, i leak that i don't think the issue is resolved at all in that they're not mandating everything, they haven't tried to mandate anything t. players aren't united. the owners aren't united and the country certainly is not united on this. >> most of the polls show that you are acting, well, i don't know, it's like six in ten americans done want the players to kneel and the only reason i'm bringing that up, this isn't about the flag for the owners, this isn't about protests, the only color this is about for the owners is green. they know the people that watch their football players play football and crash heads against each other on sunday don't want to see those players kneeling

for the most part. the overwhelming majority. so this is about mop. >> but few were to ask them if they want to see people's free speech infringed upon, probably nine in ten would say they shouldn't. >> well, of course. but, yes, i see your point. i think the larger point is, people the promise of the nfl is you can look to us, we are your respite from every day issues. we are your respite from politics, for instance. again, there is a natural inclination of fans to want to return to that. >> is there a natural inclination, has anybody heard of players saying, okay, we've made our point, let's figure out a way to do this, maybe we kneel before the national anthem and lock arms during the national anthem? >> let's play football. >> they all want to play football. yes, every team has had those conversations. the problem is they're not unified, have you the san francisco 49ers, 20, 25 players kneeling every is up. have you teams like the dallas cowboys the owner has been very

outspoken against this, they're not kneeling, it is jared jones is talking a lot about this. again when and if donald trump weighs in on this again or if mike pence does something again, it will be an issue. >> colin kaepernick filed a class action against the owners saying they colluded against him after he initiated these protests? any concern from nfl owners? >> it is a tough case to prove. i didn't hear concerns specifically about. that collin kaepernick is an ongoing not distraction, but he is a consoleette here, he's not signed, it's not clear if anyone would signle even without the off field stuff and whether he will be asked about it. >> usually the players, too, want to get back to talking about football and they want to talk about politics. >> some of them. >> on the other hand, this is their platform. that puts them in a iend i boo

ind to make their political point. they have to use that moment. >> right. >> before or during or after the anthem to make that moment. so they have to keep politics in the game or at least on field. >> that's what they care about. the vast majority of them don't care enough about politics to let it define who they are professionally and whether who they want their public identity to be. i think for a population of layers that want to do something, there is no mandate at all saying they must n. a sense, yes, the league has punted this decision off, but it's not going away i don't think. >> boy, what a rough three, four, five years for the nfl. i remember us talking about ray rice day in, day out several years ago and of course. >> concussion protocol. >> cte, one of the reasons why, i stopped watching the nfl a couple years ago is because watching people kill themselves

literally. and now this. just one, one shock after another coming up next, what's that old saying there is no such thing as a dumb question? >> why would you say something that stupid? why would you ask something that dumb? huh? my job as a united states senator as a senator from arizona. >> we will play the collection that got senator john mccain frustrated as he and the president continue to trade jabs. "morning joe" is back.

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to abandon the ideals we have advanced around the globe, to refuse leadership and our duty to remain the last best hope of earth for the sake of some half-baked spurious nationalism cooked up by people who would rather find scapegoats than solve problems -- >> hearing what he said yesterday, senator mccain. >> i hear it. people have to be careful. at some point i fight back, you

know. i'm being very nice. i'm being very, very nice. but at some point, i fight back. and it won't be pretty. >> mr. trump said on the radio i heard and at some point i fight back. at some point i will fight back and it won't be pretty. talking about you. >> i don't comment on what the president says i comment on what he does and i will say that i have faced some pretty tough adversaries in the past. i'm not interested in confronting the president. i'm interested in working with the president. >> has your relationship with the president raised to the point that -- >> why would you say something that stupid? why would you ask something that dumb? my job as united states senator, senator from arizona, which i was just re-elected to. you mean that i somehow am going to behave in a way that i'm

going to block everything because of some personal disagreement? that's a dumb question. >> well, mike barnicle? >> that's john mccain, fully liberated john mccain and he's absolutely right in his response. and that has been his history. you know that. i mean, he has disliked some of the things that you have said but that has not interfere d wih the personal relationship. >> if you say disliked, i'll say again he said that his one great regret, sinking ship he served on in the pensacola bay was that he didn't chain me to it. >> did he say that. >> so, yes, we have -- you know, we have been on the opposite side of things at times. it's been pretty ugly, back and forth. but, you know what? we always knew. this is the thing that, unfortunately, in this town, people used to be very good at doing this. call a time-out. >> absolutely. >> when i went to washington, i

said this before, i don't want to see any other senators or congressmen because i knew they would all be scared and trying to figure out what -- i went straight to john mccain's office. i thought it was ironic. here say guy that we've loved each other. we fought each other. through the years, through 20 years. but there was only one guy that i respected enough that i had to go talk to him and say how are we doing? how are we going to be as a country? and he didn't let me down. he never does. >> what i think is interesting about the latest sort of fully liberated mccain, if you want to call him that, is that he not only represents his own incredibly rich career, but also he represents a kind of politics that is really struggling. i think it's very telling that he made his remarks the other night in a joint appearance, basically with, vice president biden in philadelphia, given an award. i think part of it is gauzing

nostalgia for a time that may not have ever existed, the sort of bipartisanship, fellowship. i think also what we will -- i think that will be one of the many things that people are already nostalgic for with him. >> but, mark, he has always been liberated, though. that's what makes him so different. he always seems to speak his mind. he has always gone after people when he felt like going after people. >> there have been different stages with liberation with john mccain. when he was sort of the establishment front-runner in 2008 he was not that liberated. >> right. >> and right now he's not up for re-election and he's getting older. >> there's a lot going on in that clip. but for those of us who have respect for senator mccain to see the shades he was like at 2008, and other points in his career, even at the expense of one of our colleagues, i couldn't be happier. >> i will say to our colleague, you will survive.

you just power through. >> when the news that you and mika were engaged was made public, he came on the show to congratulate you and to tell mika there's still time to get out. >> still time to get out. didn't he say something on the 10th anniversary, something along the lines of it's so great? screaming at the tv. >> i can't believe this show is still on or something. >> good to see you, sir. >> good to be with you. >> back to hob knobbing. >> it's all about hob knobbing. we will talk to congresswoman frederica wilson hork said she heard part of the call with the grieving family. and whether it's behind a bipartisan deal to stabilize obamacare.

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serious allergic reactions can occur. now's your chance at completely clear skin. just ask your doctor about taltz. i will tell her. >> i know we're live but i'm talking to peggy, okay? i'm talking to peggy. we'll need to talk to her about that. >> good. >> i like it. welcome back, my friends, to "morning joe." were you a jack paar fan? >> yes, when i was a little girl. he was the first tv talk show person i remember from when i was about 10 years old. >> for some reason i stumbled across an old clip of jack paar the other night. the guy was amazing. you just never knew when he was

going to blow up, walk off the set. you never know when i'm going to wake up and show up on this set. >> jack paar of morning television. >> have you ever seen any old clips of jack paar? >> of course i have. oh, yeah. >> oh, my god. and the idiots at nbc erased almost all of his shows. >> what do you mean? >> it was a tape. so you don't have full episodes of jack paar anymore. >> oh, the old kinescopes. >> yeah. >> he flirted with the bizarre sometimes in his little m monologues. >> i like that. he flirted with the bizarre. >> it's our new slogan. "morning joe," flirting with bizarre. >> i think we're beyond flirting. >> very eloquent guy. he was just a great, great story teller. anyway -- >> where did that come from, just out of curiosity?

>> what do you mean where did that come from? >> which part of your brain? >> i wanted to talk about jack paar for three or four days ago because i saw the clip up. >> i think the show was an hour and a half. >> it was long. >> last half hour was writers that would have a hard time being on now. >> and it was also sort of high brow, low brow. opposed to our show, low brow, low brow. so anyway, yeah, kids, youtube jack paar. you'll be glad you did. and after you do that, then youtube an interview with johnny carson. interviewing jack paar. i don't want to quit talking. >> it's 7:03. time to do the news. >> would like to talk about baseball. yankee fan. down 4-0.

>> aaron judge. >> aaron judge, bomb to center. double. didi gregorious. the todd father came through. >> incredible. >> and vanderbilt's own sonny gray. we're evened up. big game at 5:00. going to the stadium. >> 5:00 today? >> yes. >> will it be on local new york tv? >> it will be on fox sports 1. you have to dig deep through your channel guide but you'll find it. >> okay. thank you. >> i really do hope mlb -- i hope they pick a network. >> i totally agree. >> i was in the l.a. dodgers, cubs game a couple of days ago. it wasn't on nickelodeon. it was on sci-fi, spanish language sci-fi. >> tennessee it was on home shopping network. impossible to find. >> fox. >> or espn or something where everybody can go to. we digress. >> a lot. >> come on. let's be focused here.

>> i'm watching the clock. 7:04:36. 7:05, congressman, it says here. i'm getting anxious. >> i'm going to go now to willie geist who will introduce everybody on set in his own sort of velvet toned way. >> reporter: we like to introduce people eight minutes after they've been speaking already. >> do you know that in the middle of this johnny carson, jack paar clip, jack paar turns to doc severson and doesn't even know who he is, in 1986 to which johnny carson says you don't watch tv late at night, do you? go ahead. >> columnists for "the wall street journal," political contributor for nbc pulitzer prize winner peggy noonan, washington anchor for bbc world news america katty kay, john meachum, political analyst mark halperin. mika has the morning off, as

evidenced to how this hour started. >> i tried. >> i know you did. >> why do you think i was doing what i was doing? do you think i would ever be able to get jack paar and johnny carson in? >> you did it in one day. seemed to use the example of his death of chief of staff son, robert kelly, to make his point. here is the president on the rose garden monday followed by what he said in a radio interview yesterday. >> why haven't we heard anything from you so far about the soldiers that were killed in niger? >> i've written them personal letters. they've been sent or they're going out tonight but they were during the weekend. i will, at some point during the period of time call the parents and the families. i have done that traditionally. i felt very, very badly about that. it's the toughest calls i have to make are the calls where this

happens. soldiers are killed. it's a very difficult thing. now it gets to a point where four or five of them in one day is very, very tough. for me, that's by far, tustest. the traditional way, if you look at president obama and other presidents, most of them didn't make calls. a lot of them didn't make calls. i like to call when it's appropriate, when i think i'm able to do it. >> they asked me that question and for the most part, to the best of my knowledge, i think i've called every family of somebody that's died. as far as other representatives, i don't know. you could ask general kelly. did he get a call from obama? you could ask other people. i don't know what obama's policy was. >> so, peggy, we've been talking about this a little bit this morning. your reaction to what the president said, effectively in the rose garden he was saying this is the hardest thing a president has to do. i think all of us would agree with that. but then he went on to bring in president obama and said previous presidents haven't made

the calls by way of sort of excusing himself, i guess, for not yet having called the families of the four fallen in niger. >> yeah. well, we're being frank. this is another moment in which the president speaks and you wince a little bit. there's a lot of wincing that's been going on in politics. i think he forgets sometimes there's a certain -- the grace notes of life are important. death itself is a highly personal and intimate thing. when a member of the military falls on america's behalf out in the field, there's something -- it's very public and it's worthy of celebration but there's also the private personal and intimate conversation that a president, commander in chief, has with the families of those

who have just lost someone. and it's unfortunate that he just doesn't have that sense of what is public and what is private. >> what is acceptable, what is not acceptable, how humans interact with each other in a civilized way. he doesn't -- he just -- i don't think it's that he has forgotten anything. i don't think he ever learned anything about the office that he's serving, the country that he serves. a and. >> i think i would make him a dvd or vhs, whatever he uses, and put a lot of clips of peggy's old boss, ronald reagan,

on it and show him what the reagans did after the marine bombing in lebanon. remember we were struck how emotional he was, the speech that peggy wrote at normandy, where he talks about the men in front of him. and connects in a way that makes it not about him but about us, which is what the greatest presidents have done. >> sadly, though, peggy, everything seems to be about him. >> yes. there is that quirk. i think people -- >> very polite way to say. >> people who are very supportive of the president just feel, look, he is often awkward. he is doing this job in a way with limited tools, but he is doing it authentically. but picking up on jon's point, one of the things you can rely on with an american president is that they will be seriously

struck by the loss of men and women in the field. barack obama, i think, often went out to dover to receive the bodies. am i right, katty? >> yeah. >> george w. bush, to this day, his tribute to the men who fell in iraq and afghanistan and those who were injured is to make paintings of them and give them the paintings by an american president. ronald reagan made a lot of personal phone calls. and they weren't short phone calls. they were long phone calls. they knew they were talking to a mother and a father who were in deep grief and who would like, who wanted to tell the american president what their son was like. so, that has been, in the past, a grace point that you could always rely on. i think the president could use a refresher course in that. and it has nothing to do with comparing yourself to your predecessors.

>> no, it doesn't. >> and if you're focusing on your predecessors during this point, then you're missing the entire point. >> it's not about that. >> and i've said before that american presidents make a difference regardless of their party when they touch down in an area impact bid a hurricane, by national -- it makes people that have lost everything on the ground, that has lost wedding pictures that, have lost pictures of their children when they were born, that have lost everything that matters to them, it actually makes a difference to see the united states president come in, grab them and say, you're going to be okay. i've also seen, unfortunately -- also been in rooms when presidents have had to do this to parents who have lost their children. it makes a difference. and at that moment, it is not about the president and

compare -- it's the power that the american people have vested in that man or woman to speak for a nation and to show their gratitude. and i hope, willie, he figures that out some time soon, that those parents don't care about barack obama. they don't care about george w. bush. they don't care about anything other than the fact they're never going to see their son or their daughter again. >> and the president has now made those phone calls to those families of the fallen in neger. sergeant la david johnson, whose widow spoke with the president yesterday. she was in a car traveling to meet her husband's remains when the president called two weeks after her husband's death. she spoke to the president on speaker phone, surrounded by family and her congresswoman, florida democrat frederica wilson, who joins us now from miami. she recounted that phone conversation to reporters yesterday, saying the president

said, quote, her husband knew what he signed up for but i guess it still hurts. you're in the call with ms. johnson there. it goes up on speaker phone and what did you hear from the president? >> exactly what you said. that's not the worst part. she was crying the whole time and when she hung up the phone she looked at me and said, he didn't even remember his name. that's the hurting part. >> and so what i think has made some headlines is the line that you recounted from the president saying that sergeant johnson knew what he was getting into when he signed up. what was the tone and the tenor from the president in those particular comments? >> he was almost like joking. he said, well, i guess you knew -- something to the fact that he knew what he was getting into when he signed up. but i guess it hurts anyway. you know, just matter of

factually. that this happens. anyone who is signing up for military duty is signing up to die. and that's the way we interpreted it. and it was horrible. it was insensitive. it was absolutely crazy, unnecessary. i was livid. >> was that sergeant johnson's widow's read of the call as well or are you speaking for yourself? >> she was in tears. she was in tears and she said he didn't even remember his name! >> katty? >> congresswoman it's katty kay here. obviously, we haven't heard directly from mrs. johnson. she's going through an awful lot. this conversation has become intensely politicized, first from the president but now do you think you have any qualms from your point of view also politicizing this conversation? is it right that you are speaking out about what was a conversation between mrs.

johnson and the president? >> what i'm really concerned about, and i wrote a letter to general mattis about the circumstances surrounding his death. i'm not trying to politicize what the president said. that letter went out long before the conversation. i have a real concern because i have been fighting boko haram for three years in the congress of the united states ever since they kidnapped 274 school girls from a private school in nigeria. so, bring back our girls is my project in the congress of the united states. i have passed bills. i have been working with nigeria. i traveled to the region. and for la david to be from miami and part of my mentoring program, the role models of

excellence since he was a little boy and travel to the area where i have been fighting and to lose his life, why, my goodness, i was out of my mind. so i want answers surrounding his death. i want a complete investigation as to what happened to him. why was he missing for 48 hours? why was he in an unarmored car? why didn't they have appropriate weapons? boko haram is the most dangerous terrorist group in the world. they burn babies and use little girls as suicide bombers. >> congresswoman, you're quite right there needs to be an investigation in this and there's been far too little coverage of this and now the pentagon will have an investigation into how those four soldiers died and there should be more information. what i'm asking you specifically is are you complicit in

politicizing this conversation around the deaths of fallen soldiers? >> someone asked me a question, did you hear the call? tell us what you heard. i told them what i heard. >> mark halperin. >> that's not politicizing anything. that was my constituent. >> yeah. mark halperin? >> congresswoman, thank you for spending part of your time helping comfort this family that sacrificed for america. i'm wondering what you either knew before or have learned about sergeant johnson that you can share with people, about what kind of person he was. >> sergeant johnson was wonderful. he was smart. he was athletic. he was married to the most wonderful woman who has two children and she is with child. they are devastated. he was raised by his lovely aunt and uncle.

he has two younger brothers and they all came through the 5,000 role models of excellence project. one of them is in college in florida national university studying engineering. the other one is in the 5,000 role models of excellence fire college. he is going to be a firefighter. and we have started a scholarship fund for his children, for his two that are living and for the one yet born. and already we have reached $150,000 in one day. we're asking you to give. it's la david johnson scholarship fund. go fund. and he was just a wonderful young man. you know, in my line of work with the mentoring program, a dropout prevention program, alternative program, i lose a lot of young black boys every

year to crime in the street. but when a community like mine has a hero that we can lift up and celebrate and love, that's all we care about. we're so proud of him and everything that he has accomplished. he died as a sergeant. he died as a hero. there are not many black green beret in the military. so we are so proud of him. and mr. trump was extremely insensitive to that family and i will stick by that. i'm not trying to politicize it, but i think it was a disgrace. >> we completely understand. >> it was a disgrace. >> completely understand. >> congresswoman frederica

wilson of florida. thank you so much for your time this morning, for your support of sergeant johnson's family. and, again, let's turn this into a positive. as you said, his widow will need a lot of support. 6-year-old, 2-year-old, six months pregnant with another child on the way. so that go fund me page, la david johnson, look it up and donate if you can. we appreciate it. >> mark halperin, a lot to think about there. tell us, what are your thoughts? >> well, just to clarify something i said earlier, no one is challenging the account of the congresswoman, the other official who was in the car and so grateful to them for helping the family. the point i was making before and katty's question got at this. the president set this chain off in ways that criticized president obama falsely, et cetera, that are unfortunate. the reality is that this is still the commander in chief still calling families. whether you think he did a good job or bad job, hard to know, based on those accounts. they don't think he did a good job. the important thing for the country is to not let this

sacred act of the commander in chief calling these families become part of political fights. it's just not -- it leads to a bad place. >> peggy? >> i agree. i guess we're going to spend some time now in the future going through this very sad and unfortunate story about the phone call and the car, et cetera, but, boy, i'm struck by the life of sergeant johnson. what a young man. a great young guy. >> and what a legacy he leaves behind with his wife and children. >> i think we should also look at that video one more time, if we still have it, of a widow now -- >> yes. >> bent over a flag-draped casket, having to go to miami international airport. >> just heartbreaking. >> to have her husband come home in a box. she has a 6-year-old, who reports say stood there stoically. you can see her in the background, a 2-year-old in the background being held by someone else and her pregnant belly

pressing up against the casket. those are three children. and this is what families in america sacrifice. this is their husbands and wives and their dads and their moms go away for long periods of time. they go into harm's way. they don't know if they're going to come back and sometimes when they do, it's like this. >> we'll be right back. [bell rings] so i was at mom and dad's and found this. cd's, baseball cards... your old magic set? and this wrestling ticket... which you still owe me for. seriously? $25 i didn't even want to go. ahhh, your diary. "mom says it is totally natural..." $25 is nothing. abracadabra, bro. the bank of america mobile banking app. the fast, secure and simple way to send money.

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you get up to 5 lines of talk and text at no extra cost. so all you pay for is data. see how much you can save. choose by the gig or unlimited. xfinity mobile. a new kind of network designed to save you money. call, visit, or go to xfinitymobile.com. welcome back to "morning joe." the president of the united states just tweeted someone or perhaps he was watching our interview with congresswoman wilson of florida. he writes democrat congresswoman totally fabricate what had i said to the wife of a soldier who died in action and i have proof. sad. that's from president donald trump. talk more about that story in a bit. federal judge in hawaii has once again blocked president trump's latest travel ban which is set to take effect today.

kept or updated restrictions on five of the six nations included in his original order, iran, libya, somalia, syria. tourist visas from chad and blocked visas for government officials on business or tourist travel from venezuela. in the ruling the judge says the ban, which effectively denies entry to more than 150 million people, quote, suffers from the same maladies as the previous ban and discriminates on nationality. the judge's ruling does not apply to restrictions on venezuela and north korea. the white house immediately condemned what it calls, quote acres dangerously flawed ruling saying, quote, it undercuts the president's efforts to keep the american people safe and enforce minimum security standards for entry into the united states. the justice department also says it will appeal the ruling. joining us now, former

acting attorney general and deputy attorney general sally yates, giving the speech today at the summit hosted by law enforcement leaders to reduce crime and incarceration. we will get into that in a moment. sally, good morning. it's good to see you. first, i would love to get your reaction to this latest ruling on the travel ban. >> well, good morning. and thanks for having me. well, i think we're on travel ban 3.0 now. and i made my decision on the first travel ban in the early days when it even applied to lawful permanent residents and valid visa holders who literally were mid flight for some of them when the travel ban was signed. and so i understand, i haven't studied 3.0 to the same degree i did the first travel ban. but i understand that the judge there determined that, as you said, it suffered from some of the same maladies in terms of what the actual intent was. >> i think there have been, as you said, so many versions of

this and so many rulings on it that the american people have sort of lost track as to where it stands. do you believe at the end of the day the president's idea of a travel ban or some version of it will, in fact, be instated here in the u.s.? >> you know, it's hard for me to know. again i was focused on the first travel ban. >> right. >> that was incredibly broad. and i'm not sure there are a whole lot of folks out there that would credibly argue today that imposing a travel ban on people who have valid green cards without any kind of procedure would really pass constitutional muster. now i know there's been a lot more work on this. there's a lot more of a national security basis that's laid out and this travel ban. and there's actually been a process now that did not exist for the first travel ban. and, actually consulting with national security agencies. so i guess we'll just have to wait and see when i assume travel ban three ultimately makes its way to the supreme court as well. >> jon meacham?

>> curious nine months in what grade you would give the resiliency of the rule of law in october of 2017 as opposed to, say, october 2016. >> well, first, i think i mentioned to you before, jon, i don't think i've earned being called general for ten days as acting attorney general. >> but it's going to be a great miniseries. >> reporter: y >> you know what? i don't know about that, general. >> there you go. >> jon meacham won a pulitzer prize and had a photographer under his bed taking pictures when he got the news. so, quite grandios. anyway, general, i'm sorry to interrupt, general. go ahead, general. >> there's going to be a lot of generals this morning. well, you know, i've written and talked about this a little bit. i'm very concerned about the state of the rule of law. you know, our whole criminal justice system and, indeed, cornerstone of our form of government is the rule of law,

the concept that the laws apply equally to everyone. and no one is above the law and, likewise, that the law is not used as a sword to go after your political enemies either. and historically, through both democratic and republican administrations, that's been -- there was a wall between the white house and the justice department. when it comes to criminal investigations and prosecutions. i understand a lot of folks might say the justice department is part of the executive branch so what's wrong with the president telling doj who they should be prosecuting? well there's a whole lot wrong with that. and not only dos it impact the rule of law but it impacts the public's confidence and whether or not our criminal justice system is being used as a political tool. and we've seen that, unfortunately, over and over again with this president. >> but, sally, following up on jon meacham's question, haven't there been, at critical times when i'm sure you, myself and

others have worried about the rule of law, have worried about checks and balances, haven't there been times where we have been pleasantly surprised, that federal judges have stepped up? republican federal -- appointed judges have stepped up and stopped a pernicious act or even jeff sessions recusing himself and rod rosenstein at a critical moment in these first few months stepping forward and saying i'm going to appoint robert mueller? obviously there are things that concern all of us about au autocrats in training. at the same time there are some bright spots, aren't there, about our system actually holding, let's just say, constitutionally holding serve? >> absolutely. i actually think that there are a lot of bright spots and you certainly identified some of them there. our institutions are holding. and there are career men and

women at the department of justice. in fact, the vast majority of folks at doj are career prosecutors and career lawyers. and they're holding in this. so, the issue is not whether the rule of law has actually been subverted but whether the president has attempted to do that. you know, it's not for lack of trying on his part. >> right. >> and, you know, that's important from a public confidence standpoint as well. if they see the president attempting to use doj as a tool, that really undermines the public's confidence in the criminal justice system, whether he is ultimately successful in that or not. >> sally, it's katty kay here. you've been watching, of course, the russia investigation. when you look at who has been interviewed so far, what documents have been looked at, who has been hired by the special prosecutor, how do you rate the chances of bob mueller bringing criminal charges against anybody? >> i don't think i'm going to be

laying odds on that. i have tremendous confidence in bob mueller, the consummate professional. if anybody can get to the bottom of this, can he. i'm just going to stay out of the way so he can do his job. >> sal ly, let me ask you about the reason you're there in washington, talk about criminal justice reform. we've had an exploding prison population over the last 30 years or so thanks in large part to the war on drugs and mandatory sentencing. violent crime is at near historic lows. how do we square those two things? how do we get some of those people who have committed minor drug offenses to not spend large portions of their life inside a united states prison? >> well, you're absolutely right, willie. you know, we have 5% of the world's population, but yet 25% of its prisoners. we have seen our overall prison population go from about half a million back in the early '80s to 2.2 million today. and that comes with really

significant cost because every tlar that we're spending incarcerating someone, particularly, for example, a lower level nonviolent drug offender for longer than they need to be there for public safety purposes is a dollar that we don't have to address the emerging crime threats across the country, a dollar that we doesn't have to help our state and local partners and a dollar we don't have, importantly, for crime prevention and recidivism reduction programs. back in the obama administration, we really were pushing very hard for sentencing reform. you know, it's one of the few issues in washington on which there is truly bipartisan support. this is not just a lefty democratic thing. you have everybody from the koch brothers to the aclu who recognize that we really need to adjust our approach to how we're using incarceration in this country. and that's what these over 200 law enforcement leaders from across the country and when i

say law enforcement leaders i'm talking about police chiefs and sheriff's and prosecutors, democrats and republicans, all of whom are united in our conclusion that if we truly care about the safety of our communities, we have to adjust our approach to incarceration. >> you're still right. lefties, left wing extremists like mark holden and david and charles can koch behind this as strongly as anything, as well as many people on the left. it's fantastic. when are you going to run for something? >> i have to tell you, you know, i've never been drawn to the idea of elective office. >> well, this isn't about what you want. this is about what america needs. just remember that. >> well, you know, i hope that some day maybe i'll have another opportunity for public service. elected office, i'm having a hard time seeing but we'll see, i suppose. >> all right. fantastic. sally yates, thank you for being

with us. greatly appreciate it. >> thank you. bipartisan leaders in the senate say they've got a deal on health care. white house says not so fast. we'll be talking to the chairman on the study committee when "morning joe" returns. ( ♪ ) ♪ one is the only number ♪ that you'll ever need ♪ ♪ because one is the only number ♪ staying ahead isn't about waiting for a chance. it's about the one bold choice you make that moves you forward. the one and only cadillac escalade. ( ♪ ) the one and only cadillac escalade. ...you might be missing to stasomething... ♪ ...your eyes. that's why there's ocuvite.

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republican lamar alexander and democrat patti murry nearing an agreement on the compromise. under the framework the deal likely will fund affordable care act subsidies through 2019, let ages 30 and over buy catastrophic plans, put $106 million back into promoting obamacare enrollment and make it easier for states to get aca waivers while allowing interstate compacts for purchases, getting rid of the so-called lines. president trump yesterday seemed to welcome the bipartisanship but a spokesman said he was absolutely not endorsing the deal. congressman mark walker of north carolina. congressman, good morning. good to see you. what's the take on what came up between senators alexander and murray? would it pass through the house?

>> i don't know that it would. certainly it's a concern of ours. we want to see more of it. it is something that i believe, to use senator alexander's quote, that we have an emerging, encouraging consensus. if that's not washington speech, i don't know what is. we've also seen chuck schumer say that he was pleased with the agreement. those are some caution flags. there may be some look from a temporary standpoint. it's important to remember that these have been ruled illegal before and these bailouts continue to prop up the insurance companies. people are hurting under obamacare. insurance companies are not. >> alexander murray would prop up the csrs for a couple of years anyway. does that mean you're patently against alexander murray right now? >> i don't know if i would say patently against but strongly against at this point. we have major concerns of what obamakeratins to do.

not just people in north carolina but across the country. >> so, congressman, joe scarborough here. what would you be for? how do we ensure that if obamacare is pushed to the side there will be a replacement that won't leave millions of americans without insurance? >> well, i believe what we've worked on in the house is certainly a compromise that we feel like that does offer people more opportunities, more choices. two days ago, even before we knew that we were going on your program i heard from a man in north carolina who has cancer. and not just to create another sad story but his premiums are getting ready to go $1,500 to $3,000. people have been hurting. i understand that. there are also people struggling under the increased premiums, average of $3,700 people in the individual market here in north carolina. >> so, congressman, other than a few -- probably not more than a few lobbyists in washington, nobody i know likes the insurance companies. but without this occurring to

prop up the insurance companies in terms of helping people of lower incomes get health care, what happens to those people? you just referenced, you know, the hurt, the poor. what happens to them? >> well, i believe if we need to look at some kind of temporary proposal, we can. at which point do we understand or ask the question, how many different organizations or companies or markets does congress play in? with washington picking these winners and losers as far as where these check should be directly cut, in this case to the insurance companies. which line do we draw the line to say, you know what? we can't continue to fund this we're running at a $700 billion deficit per year. it's not that we're not compassionate. i was a former pastor for 18 years. i've been hearing some of the heartache even earlier in your show, some of the things we were talking about. we need to be sure we're being good stewards with the taxpayer's dollar. >> congressman, good morning. peggy noonan here. >> good morning. >> i'm curious when you talk

about this. my sense of health care, various health care replacements and bills, et cetera, these issues obsess americans and it's something on their minds. and yet nobody ever knows what we're talking about when we talk about these phrases about csrs and bailouts and percentages of the giveback that might come partially from the state and the fed, maybe the county. do you find it almost impossible to talk clearly to your constituents in a way that they understand about health care? i mean, do you all have it straight? i must admit i watch tv every day. i get confused every time health care comes up. >> peggy, that's a great question. sometimes we've got to get beyond the talking points. there's an individual side,

small business side and even remembering president clinton, obamacare used the word killing or crushing small businesses. those are things we have to counter. there are factors that go beyond the individuality of this. it is complex. i'm not making the case that the health care system 8 1/2, nine years ago was in a good place. but we can also make a strong case that obamacare has not been the solution. >> congressman mark walker of north carolina, appreciate your time this morning. thank you. >> my privilege. thank you. >> still ahead on "morning joe," chief strategist steve bann nochlt takes his war on the establishment to arizona, apparently forgetting he used to work for goldman sachs. we'll explain when "morning joe" comes right back.

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helps so much more than you can imagine. please donate now to help people affected by hurricane harvey. your help is urgently needed. >> we have a president who does not understand governance. forget his policies for a minute. he doesn't understand how the government functions.

there's certain basic norms. and he doesn't understand them and the ones he understands, he tries to break down. violating the norms of personal conduct generates more anxiety and fear than any policy prescription that this president has enunciated. sending his secretary of state to talk with north korean saying he is on a, it is absolutely bizarre. bizarre conduct. >> former vice president joe biden. >> you got joe biden and john kasich. i mean, rhetorically, that's like putting two bobcats in a burlap bag and letting them go at it. how, how long did that go? >> that's one of those where you can ask the moderator. you ask one question and go out and have lunch and come back and

they're still going. two smart guys with a lot to say. vice president biden has been contacted by several heads of state for advice and insight into president trump. >> that happens all the time. they're trying to figure out who to talk to and now a lot of foreign leaders are starting to talk to congressional leaders because donald trump keeps deferring iran, dreamers, you name it, to congress. >> there's also, i kind of pick up when i speak to those from other countries involved in the foreign affairs in the united states, i gather they're not always sure how -- they're not sure of the pathway into the administration. when they need to have a talk when it's very serious. when something's important you're another country, you're trying to get the trump administration's attention. you don't know quite who to go to and you may not get a predictab predictable, as in it was always

predictable in the past invitation in in a way. it's an odd thing. in fairness, we should remember this is the first year of an administration. that's when things are most awkward. that having been said, look, a lot of norms are at the window. who could say no? >> who could say no. but the state department has been gutted. they're not allowing their secretary of state, first of all, to have the confidence of the president when he goes out and talks to people across -- but they also don't have diplomats. they don't have ambassadors where they need to have ambassadors. they don't have state department officials. so, who are world leaders going to call? >> they are confused about who to call in the administration. they do take some comfort from the national security team. those who can call mcmaster and tillerson if they have that kind of relationship from the past or some kind of clout, they can do

that. every country is realizing they can't ignore america, the economy is far too big and they have to try to separate what they are increasingly seeing as words and bluster and rhetoric and superlatives from what is actually happening. >> is joe biden looking at 2020? >> i'm sure he is. who isn't among the democrats? the democrats will have at least 0 on the stage running for president of the united states. but this is an interesting point you raised because a lot of foreign -- as later that afternoon he was meeting -- >> vice president biden. >> vice president biden. >> he was meeting with the head of the foreign nation and pacically pac basically if you hear him explain many in other countries who are operating on a gps system. they don't know where they are. what do they do? they call the old gps system to say, where are we? where are we the united states? >> they are also calling each

other. politics is like a vacuum and others will step in. >> they know, globally, they cannot navigate without the united states in the lead. >> so, peggy, what are you writing about this week? you think it will be a column on jack par or iran? >> i was thinking i have a lot of notes -- a little off point, but i have been thinking very much about the late night comics quite seriously in america. who hammer the administration so much and who essentially approach politics in a sort of we are here of the left, if you are of the right. i don't need you watching my show. and i looked back at how jay leno did it, johnny carson did it. they were wonderfully teasing and insulting towards both parties and all political figures. so, i'm kind of thinking of going down that road. i'm not sure. >> you can look at south park. shows no mercy on either side

for more recent example. johnny carson, though, this is what is so fascinating about what you say. johnny carson always told anybody who asked, what's the secret of success? he said, nobody thinks about it on the coasts, it's the central time zone. if you win in the central time zone, you win. you have late-night comics and its personal forum and i understand and it's their show and their format, they do what they want to do on their show. that's fine. but, every night they go out and they're undercutting their support in the central time zone. maybe they don't care. maybe the networks don't care. there is a bigger problem, though, willie. the bigger problem is that you have an entire, let's just say, progressive bubble where now even when they go to late night television for comics, for laughs, they're being told, you

were right. they are wrong. >> right. >> now, listen, i agree with most of what they're saying, but you have an entire generation of kids growing up and culturally they are more disconnected from the rest of america than ever before in movies, tv, late-night comics, you name it. >> rewards in it for the host. stephen colbert is number one, something a year ago was unimaginable. jimmy kimmel i would put him in a different category because the health care category was so personal for him with his son. he talked about guns and everything else. this is a perfect time to talk about this. i interviewed jimmy fallon last week and we got into this because he's taking on criticism and heat for not taking on donald trump. and i hear him. he said, it's just not me. it would look phony if i went out and had these nightly

against donald trump. i'm a pop culture guy and i hope to have a good time and hopefully my show can be a different place than those other shows. he slipped among total viewers. but this is a bit of a sugar high for some people going after trump and in the long run, people want to come back to a place where they can have fun at night and he is going to be true to himself and i give him credit for it. >> if you're the conscious of america when it comes to donald trump on issue a or issue b, you can't then do that phony cop out that a lot of politicized comedians have done for decades now and say, when harvey weinstein comes up say, hey, i'm just a comedian. come on, don't look at me for moral guidance and then the next night you're talking about health care. are you talk about guns? and, again, just to be very clear. you're probably talking in a

way, no, on issues in a way that i agree with him. but you can't pick and choose and that's the problem with these late-night comedians. walk into these political mine fields and decide one night they want to be the conscious of america. and the next night, they, they want to tell jokes about, well, jay leno has been telling jokes about for years. >> it's the jon stewart dodge. when he was political he said, i feel this. when people would say you're awfully political. i'm a comic. don't just be looking to me for guidance. >> i'm just a comic. >> and the comedy and i tell jokes. >> yeah. and then not -- the next nine nights a comedian, then, again, tries to be the conscious of america. something that we never, ever confuse ourselves. >> we don't have that burden. >> we don't have that burden. we're concerned about getting jobs at goldman sachs and concerned about the dog trap. >> still going well. >> and, of course, johnny

carson. it is the top of the hour. 8:00 here on the east coast and 5:00 a.m. out west. the president seemingly reacting this morning to an interview we had on the show in the last hour. on last hour we reported on president trump's phone calls yesterday, the families of four american soldiers killed two weeks ago in niger. one conversation was recounted by frederica wilson who was in the car with the widow of la david johnson when the president called. the congresswoman said the president told the widow that her husband, "knew what he signed up for but when it happens it hurts anyway." we spoke with the florida lawmaker just minutes ago and the white house clearly was watching. the president tweeted this, "democrat congresswoman totally fabricated what i said to the wife of a soldier who died in action and i have proof. sad. here now is our full interview with congresswoman frederica wilson. if you could just recap what exactly happened yesterday. you're in the car with ms.

johnson there. the president calls and it goes up on speaker phone and what did you hear from the president? >> exactly what you said. that's not the worst part. she was crying the whole time. and when she hung up the phone she looked at me and said, he didn't even remember his name. that's the hurting part. >> and, so, i think what's made some headlines is the line that you recounted from the president saying that sergeant johnson knew what he was getting into when he signed that. what was the tone and the tenor from the president in those particular comments? >> he was almost like joking. he said, well, i guess you knew -- something tathe fact that he knew what he was getting into when he signed up. but i guess it hurts anyway. you know, just matter of factually. that this is what happens. anyone who is signing up for military duty is signing up to die.

and that's the way we interpreted it. and it was horrible. it was insensitive. it was absolutely crazy unnecessary. i was livid. >> was that sergeant johnson's widow read of the call or are you speaking for yourself? >> she was in tears. she was in tears and she said, he didn't even remember his name. >> congresswoman, obviously, we haven't heard directly from mrs. johnson, she's going through an awful lot. this conversation has become intensely politicized. first from the president, but now do you think you have any qualms about from your point of view as a democratic congresswoman also politicizing this conversation. is it right you are speaking out about what was a conversation between mrs. johnson and the president? >> what i am really concerned about and i wrote a letter to general mattis about the

circumstances surrounding his death. i'm not trying to polites is what the president said. that letter went out long before the conversation. i have a real concern because i have been fighting boca in the congress of the united states ever since they kidnapped 274 school girls from a private school in nigeria. so, bring back our girls is my project and the congress of the united states. i have passed bills. i have been working with nigeria. i have traveled to the region. and for la david to be from miami and a part of my mentoring program, the 5,000 role models of excellence from a little boy and to travel to the area where i have been ofighting and to lose his life. why my goodness.

i was out of my mind. so, i want answers surrounding his death. i want a complete investigation as to what happened to him. why was he missing for 48 hours? why was he in an unarmored car? why didn't they have appropriate weapons? the most dangerous terrorist group in the world. they burn babies and use little girls as suicide bombers. >> congresswoman, you're quite right, there needs to be an investigation of this and now the pentagon is going to have an investigation into how those four soldiers died. and there should be more information. what i'm asking you specifically is, are you complicit in politicizing this conversation around the deaths of fallen soldiers? >> someone asked me a question. did you hear the call?

tell us what you heard. i told them what i heard. that's not politicizing anything. that was my constituent. >> mark halprin. >> congresswoman, thank you for spending part of your time helping comfort this family that sacrificed for america. i'm wondering what you either knew before or have learned about sergeant johnson that you can share with people about what kind of person he was. >> sergeant johnson was wonderful. he was smart and athletic and he is married to the most wonderful woman who has two children and she is with a child. they are devastated. he was raised by his lovely aunt and uncle. he has two younger brothers and they all came through the 5,000 role models of excellence

project. one of them is at college at florida international university studying engineering. the other one is in the 5,000 role models of excellence fire college. he's going to be a firefighter. and we have started a scholarship fund for his children. for his two that are living and for the one yet born. and already we have reached $150,000 in one day. we're asking you to give. it's la david johnson scholarship fund go fund. and he was just a wonderful young man. you know, in my line of work with the mentoring program, a dropout prevention program, an alternative program. i lose a lot of young black boys every year to crime in the street.

but when a community like mine has a hero that we can lift up and celebrate and love, that's all we care about. we're so proud of him and everything that he has accomplished. he died as a sergeant. he died as a hero. there are not many black green beret in the military. so, we are so proud of him. and mr. trump was extremely insensitive to that family and i will stick by that. i'm not trying to polit size it but it was a disgrace. >> we completely understand. >> congresswoman frederica wilson of florida. thank you so much for your time this morning, your support of sergeant johnson's family and, again, let's turn this into a

positive. she's going to need a lot of support. sm she has a 6-year-old and 2-year-old and a child on the way. look it up and donate, if you can. congresswoman, thank you for your time this morning. we appreciate it. >> mark halprin, a lot to think about there. tell us, what are your thoughts? >> something i said earlier, no one is challenging the account of the congresswoman and the other official in the car and so grateful to them for helping the family. the point i was making before and the president set this chain off in ways of criticizing president obama falsely, et cetera, that are unfortunate. the reality is, this is still the commander in chief still calling families and whether you think he did a good job or bad job, hard to know based on those accounts. they don't think he did a good job. but the important thing for the country is to not let this sacred act of the commander in chief calling these families become part of political fights. just not, it leads to a bad place.

>> peggy. >> i agree. i guess we're going to spend some time now in the future going through this, going through this very sad and unfortunate story about the phone call and the car, et cetera. but, boy, i'm struck by the life of sergeant johnson. what a young man. great, young guy. >> what a legacy he leaves behind with his wife and children. >> i think we also should just look at that video one more time, if we still have it. of a widow now bent over a flag-draped casket having to go to miami international airport to have her husband come home in a box. and she's got a 6-year-old who reports say just stood there stoically. you can see her in the background. a 2-year-old who was in the background being held by someone else and her pregnant belly pressing up against the casket. those are three children. and this is what families in america sacrifice. this is their husbands and wives

and their dads and their moms go away for long periods of time. they go into harm's way and they don't know if they're going to come back and sometimes when they do, it's like this. >> we'll be right back. listen up, heart disease. you too, unnecessary er visits. and hey, unmanaged depression, don't get too comfortable. we're talking to you, cost inefficiencies, and data without insights. and fragmented care, stop getting in the way of patient recovery and pay attention. every single one of you is on our list. at optum, we're partnering across the health system to tackle its biggest challenges.

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>> the goal here is to win elections in november. back in 2010 and 2012 we nominated several candidates, christine od'donnelo'donnell, s angle, richard murdoch, they're not in the senate and the reason for that is they were not able to -- keep us in the majoritmaj. the way you do that is not complicated. you have to nominate people who could actually win because winners make policies and losers go home.

>> the last couple of days mitch has been saying this big thing, hey, you have to win. you know, winners make policies and losers go home. hey, mitch, note to self, mitch. big luther strange and little bobby corker are both going home. these people, mitch, it's 2-0. >> can you believe that guy right there is the guy that put acid in his bathtub and padlocks on the doors and can you believe how puffed up that guy is getting right now? the mercers just funding everything that happens. funding everything. just pouring money down his throat. every day. it's going to be interesting. i hope, i hope, i hope they're happy with what's happening in alabama. i hope they're going to be happy if they get this conspiracy

theoriest out. >> the alabama race is going to be interesting to watch play out. a really interesting race. >> it is. >> we have some polls to show you from alabama. that was steve bannon he showed up in arizona last night there to boost the candidacy of kelly ward and her republican primary challenge to incumbent republican and trump critic senator jeff flake. meanwhile a new poll shows that the republican candidate steve bannon has backed alabama u.s. senate race is now tied with the democrat there. the latest poll from fox news has republican roy moore and democrat doug jones tied. both polling at 42% among alabama's registered voters. also noted that roy moore had gained 20,000 twitter followers just over the weekend. >> that's impressive. >> 1,100 of those bearing russian language names and

descriptions. the more campaign denied knowledge and suggested that the jones campaign of democrats were pulling a political stunt. >> but, you know, there is, people don't know this. but right out, if you're looking for where -- i'm serious. if you're looking where russian immigrants are, number one, brooklyn. number two, alabama. right behind, ralph, alabama. check it on your map. >> ft. payne. i'm not sure about ft. payne. >> when he starts his rallies with the international, you know, we'll all start wondering. >> some people have said that alabama polls a little bit of an o o outlayer, but if it does, you have a race down there. >> mark halprin most conservatives that i follow and respect who are skeptical of

trump are also skeptical of that poll. they don't believe it is that close. i'll just say, it is a fox news poll and the fact that you have anything merely that close is fascinating. there are going to be a lot of people looking at alabama on election night and a lot of people looking, obviously, in virginia, too. which had a poll out that had eddie gillespie up by one point and skeptics regarding that poll, as well. >> democrats have a decent candidate in that race. it's true in almost any race in any southern state if you can increase the turnout of african-americans. the contribution of the vote for the democrat. you can make things that shouldn't be erased historically into a race. if the democrat wins that race, it will be a cataclysmic event and the republican party will be doing a lot of soul searching. so t will be tempting for democrats to go in there and try to win that seat.

i expect you'll see more polling to see whether that poll is an outlayer or not. >> but, willie, again, when you have the stories that have come on the heels of roy moore's primary victory regarding money he got from a charity and these russian, the russian influence on his twitter feed even. you're -- again a lot of people in alabama that go, okay. i'll still support trump, but i don't know that i can take a guy that's been kicked off the court twice. seems to like russians and took money from a charity that he shouldn't have taken. >> i think it a lot more like trump. roy moore will have a base in alabama. won't move and believe the russian story about twitter and democrats come after him. those people in the middle. republicans more like you, joe, who will have to make a decision between voting for that man

right there, roy moore, a democrat, or not voting at all. so, we'll see what happens then. also a generic ballot poll showing democrats may have the upper hand in this year's congressional elections. when voters were asked, which pa party's congressional they would vote for today. 51% to republicans 37%. generic ballot poll out of cnn. >> mark halprin, that is a massive divide, obviously. i can't recall seeing a generic ballot test that was that -- the difference between the two parties was so great. >> that would be a landslide and speaker nancy pelosi in numbers like that -- anything like that exists. the democratic brand stands for anti-trump. the republican brand is sort of in shambles. the mitch mcconnell party and the steve bannon party. they've not accomplished very much. so, numbers like that that

alabama race, the troubles the legislative agenda is having. this is a very tough time for a republican party, which is confused about what the path of success is, except they think passing tax reform will cure what a ailes them. that's where you get your congressional generic number comes from is the brand of the two parties. coming up on "morning joe" we go live to the white house where president trump started tweeting before dawn. the first thing on his mind this morning, hillary clinton. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. my mom's pain from

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>> senator paul just said you are torpedoing the budget. are you? >> i think senator paul is trying to find a way to vote no and he always does. senator paul can't vote yes on anything because it's never good enough. >> lindsey graham wouldn't know a conservative if he met one. all right. he's never been a conservative. he's probably a big part of why we have such a massive debt in this country.

>> well, then, some good old-fashioned bickering battling yesterday over tax reform. meanwhile, it's been a very busy morning of tweets by the president on a number of topics. kristen welker. good morning. president trump firing back at congresswoman frederica's account of the phone call. he sent that tweet out about two minutes after we completed our interview with congresswoman wilson on "morning joe." >> it was notable because it came so soon after the interview you did with congresswoman wilson and also after this tweet storm on a range of other topics. first to the tweet the president unleashed against congresswoman wilson saying congresswoman totally fabricate what i said to the wife of a soldier who died in action and i have proof. sad. of course, what congresswoman wilson said she overheard is the president telling the widow that army sergeant la david johnson

knew what he was getting himself in to, but, obviously, it hurts anyway. she called those remarks insensitive. so, the president forcefully pushing back against that. we reached oout to the white house to hear what proof exists. we heard this president make this claim before that he has some type of proof of conversations he had, including with former fbi director james comey. you'll recall, ultimately, he did not have anything recorded or on tape. now, again, this comes after a morning tweet storm which seemed to be aimed at really changing the conversation. willie, i'll read you a couple of the other tweets. a lot of them directed at the former fbi director james comey. one reading, wow, fbi confirms report that james comey drafted letter exonerating crooked hillary clinton long before investigation was complete. another one on tax reform. of course, that's a big issue. you guys were just talking about this. the democrat will only vote for tax increases. hopefully all senate republicans will vote for the biggest tax

cut in u.s. history. then one on the nfl after the big meeting yesterday between the owners. the nfl decided it will not force players to stand for the playing of our national anthem. total disrespect for our entire country. the nfl effectively came out and said we are not going to change the rules right now which do not require players to stand. if you talk to republicans, it's this type of controversy and tweeting that they say is getting in the way of their agenda. tax reform. health care reform. all of the things that the president says he wants to accomplish but, of course, looming over all of it is back and forth with the florida congresswoman. >> just another slow morning for kristen welker at the white house. >> when she was leaving school her professor asked her, what do you want to do when you leave this place? she said, i would like to go report on donald trump and his

tweets. and that's -- congratulations, kristen. you've achieved that. i've noticed on the time stamps here of the president's tweets it's fascinating he doesn't watch the show, but he did tweet about the nfl right after mark had a lengthy discussion on our show about the nfl and, of course, florida congresswoman on our show and then he immediately started tweeting back at her. the synchronicity, it's kind of strange. he doesn't even watch the show. >> there is a harmonic convergence of sorts. so, so -- mike barnicle, so much to talk about there. but donald trump striking back at the congresswoman. he says he has proof and, as kristen said, this is the sort of proof he's always had which is, i'll tell you in two weeks. >> well, it's like stay tuned and the warning. last week to the press corps

that something is going to happen. you know, what's going to happen. well, stay tuned. that's who he is. that's what we live with. that's what gets in the way of doing anything, getting anything done in congress as a budget that has to be passed. the health care has to be addressed. the health care issue has to be addressed and we're getting the nfl. we're getting the florida congresswoman, we're getting all of these different tweets but nothing that will help improve our lives. >> john meacham, john mccain said something this morning or yesterday that we played this morning that biographers of eisenhower said was the way eisenhower judged people. he never judged people by what they said. he judged people by what they did. and john mccain this morning said, i'm not going to respond to what he says. i will respond to what he does. which actually may be a wonderful guide post for all of us. >> it's a very sensible,

rational way to be. but that's if you're john mccain. that is if you're a senior senator. if you have your own agency in this. i think it's -- and god knows to use it to switch metaphors. you try to get on the trump wagon occasionally and not, you know, open the bottle every day. but you don't stay on for very long. and i think the -- i think if you have power and if you have agency, you can afford to say by what he does, not what he says. but the president's words do matter and the cultural ubiquity of this guy is something we haven't figured out. >> that's a huge issue that you just raised, joe. the fact that we are talking about his tweets and we do it every day. in fact, not just here but every network, every newspaper covers his tweets. 300 people killed in a terrorist bombing and we didn't even mention it.

we have the four green berets killed in niger and we now talk about it because of the controversy that erupted around president trump. we don't talk about the fact that they died in a country that very few americans knew we were participating in militarily. and in a war that is going to be a generational war that is going to go on for 10, 15, 20 years. we don't talk about that. all sorts of important issues that we don't raise, talk about and cover because of oour obsession with his tweets. >> on the other side of it , th white house itself said earlier on the president's tweets were the official statements of the white house. and if you look at the problems that donald trump is still wrestling with with the russian investigation and bob mueller, all of that really spun out of some reckless tweets on a saturday morning regarding barack obama. >> his tweets, again, his communication is very much part

of the daunld truonald trump st. today you can see the congresswoman attacked donald trump. and donald trump attacked the congresswoman back. it is today's news cycle. it is today's shiny object. >> what won't we be talking about? russia. the new lawyers that jared kushner hired. we won't be talking about what bob mueller is doing. we won't be talking about the fact that sean spicer was interviewed yesterday and we won't be talking about all the things that donald trump doesn't want us to talk about. >> systematically rolled back and the number of people who are here illegally who have not committed crime and the number of people risen by 200% and ways that america is changing fundamentally under this president and real changes to the social fabric of the country. we won't talk about those because the white house and the way the president communicates dominates the conversation. >> important to underline something we said earlier which is that the president doesn't view these conversations as negative. we may find it despicable about the way he speaks about fallen

soldiers or the way he speaks to his families. for him, he has a headline. like he lived in a headline and he called "new york post" and get himself back in the headlines. as long as you're talking about him and a churn about donald trump, he can win the argument against the media. win the argument against hollywood and win the argument against his critics. he doesn't view any of these conversations that we view as negative to him. >> i was talking a couple weeks ago mika and i left a restaurant and you walk past every table and they were all talking about donald trump and it was all negative and i said to mikay sa first of all, everybody talking about donald trump. and it was all negative. and i sat out on the sidewalk and he saw that as a good thing. it reminded me, you rewind back during the middle of the campaign mika and i would go out and have dinner with valerie,

ask me why he is being too tough on the president and talk family and this, that and the other. probably the spring of 2016 we finished a two-hour meal, we never sat for that long. 45 minutes, up and out, right. as we stood because we were so engrossed in conversation, valerie said, do you realize we talked about donald trump for two hours at this dinner table. we've never talked about any one subject more than ten minutes. again, it was all bad. but he doesn't care. if you're talking about him, as we're talking about him now, during the campaign he understood it. he would do something shocking every friday. every friday he would do something shocking. he would own the weekend. he would get the big headline in the sunday papers. everybody would be talking about him on the sunday shows and

every saturday morning, he would fire out even more obnoxious tweets. so, when everybody else was trying to relax for the weekend and marco rubio, not mocking rubio was watching football games with his family trying to relax, donald trump doing nationally what you said he did in new york. >> it's interesting. we're back to john mccain now because it kind of started with john mccain at the beginning of the campaign when he said he likes heroes who weren't captured. >> that was on a friday night. >> everybody thought this would be the death of donald trump. you can't say that about john mccain or any war hero. he survived that and thrived off of it and that was an indication that this was going to be different. >> do you know when he attacked megyn kelly? friday night. you can go down the list. again, one horrific statement after another came on a friday or a saturday. his horrid tweets came on saturday mornings.

and everything else just got blown off the front pages. at some point, political adversaries and people in the press may figure that out. >> one of the subtexts of the mccain drama, of course, if trump's view of the world where everything is conflict, mccain lost. he lost in '08. if we've learned anything, even today, right? so what he's tweeting about hillary and comey. i mean, what's next? you know, webster -- >> atlanta falcons losing the last super bowl. >> i think the webster debates were just fascinating. >> so, we're going to be joined next by best-selling author walter isaacson. today's political developments plus walter adding a new icon to his collection of biographies. we'll tell you who it is, next, on "morning joe." what started as a passion...

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>> andrew jackson. this is a book -- >> the word at the paper is really high quality. >> i would like this leather bound for my library. the president and ceo of the and author of "new york times" best seller, einstein and benjamin franklin and he's now out with a new book "leonardo da vinci" based on new discoveries based on his life and work. one of the world's most creative geniuses. i mean, you really have, you

really have followed from da vin vinci, to benjamin franklin. >> the first week of your show, 100 years ago is when einstein came out. remember we did -- this will be a good show. they're going to interview somebody. >> i tell the story all the time because i was flying home to pensacola. i saw einstein in the atlanta airport. i said i got to read the book. i read through it really quickly and i said, i want walter isaacson on monday. and they said, isaacson doesn't wake up early. i said, i want him on early. and i don't care. and then, finally, they said, okay, he'll do the phone. but, i said, okay. i don't care. just get, let's talk. and, so we talked for about 15 minutes and very clear walter was still in bed because i'm lying down in bed voice and at the end of 15 minutes he was going, going to break. this is killing us.

you're talking about physics and 1903 with a guy asleep in bed. i said, walter, listen, we have to go to break, but can you stick around? we had you for 20 or 30 minutes. and it was the highest rated 30 minutes in 2007 and at that point, i'm serious, that's when i said, this is our audience. that was the start of it. >> now you have leonardo. >> i'm fascinated. what connects people, geniuses, like jobs, einstein, leonardo ai vin vinci. >> smart people are a dime a dozen. they don't generally amount to much. >> what you brought out about einstein, there were smarter scientists, it's how he saw things. >> certainly with leonardo. didn't go to university and didn't go to school. he was born out of wedlock.

didn't get a formal education. he didn't have a mathematical mind but extraordinarily curious like steve jobs and all of them have notebooks and they all write things like, why is the sky blue? leonardo kept a list every week of all the things he had to discover. >> what triggers in you, though, da vinci. i mean -- >> it was because steve jobs was pushing it and then bill gates had just bought the da vinci notebooks saying and he's somebody who ties together art and science. which is what steve jobs loved to do. beauty and engineering. and that was sort of the theme of always been interested in. people who can straddle both discipli discipline. leonardo. this is the ultimate icon of it. come is a great work of science and proportions of man. a great work of art. it's a self-portrait. this is him.

it's him standing on the earth and then the universe. how do we fit in? it's spiritual, scientific and artistic, which is what i've always been interested in. >> if we asked leonardo da vinci, are you an artist or scientist, what would he say? >> he would say, i am an engineer. he was a painter. but when he reaches that unnerving and you probably haven't gotten there yet and he decides he's going to quit being a painter and he just hasn't finished. he leaves florence to go to milan carrying musical instruments and he writes a letter you could imagine. 11 paragraphs long and the first ten paragraphs i can do engineering, i can be an architect of buildings only in the 11th paragraph does he say i can also paint. >> how fascinating steve jobs when you got into steve jobs. the same thing. here you have a guy that

revolutionized the world we lived in. revolutionized in ways. we live in steve jobs world right now. 24 hours a day. and, yet, here was a guy who would obsess over fonts and what he went to to get the sleek design. like da vinci. two worlds combined together. >> absolutely. take the mona lisa. you know, he, he keeps this with him for 13 years because he keeps putting, you know, it's like steve jobs holding up shipping the mcintosh because the circuit board is not beautiful enough inside. with the mona lisa, he understands that if he gets the edge of the lips turned down a bit with a tight detail but the shadows turn up that the different parts of the eye will see it differently. and the smile will flicker. so, it was that perfectionism that means -- >> tell us about the scientific

process that went in to discovering mona lisa's mouth? that's amazing. >> two things. first of all, he dissected 30 human faces so he could know every muscle and every nerve that touches the lips, including where the nerves go. including the brain and the spinal cord. then he figured out only the lower lip is a muscle, the top lip isn't. all these little things. but he also discovered by dissecting the retina that if you look at something directly in the center of the retina, it's a detail. if something hits the edge of your retina, it sees shadows better. you can make the smile flicker on and off. the more you look directly at it, the less you see it. if you look at the forehead or cheek, the smile pops on. >> what is your reaction to meacham sitting over there with resentment? >> you know, meacham is my hero. i follow in the footsteps of perfection, john.

>> talk about, if you would, he's a man of science. he also paints some of the great religious art of the ages. what was his view of -- >> he was a -- the whole whole point of a truvian man is to build a church that connects the poerp proportions of man and man connects to the church. deeply spiritual in that sense. however, with his science he discovers fossils and he writes the biblical flood never happened the way they said it did. it happened over the courses of thousands of years. this is the beginning of the scientific method. and this, the fetus in the womb, a beautiful piece of science, a beautiful piece of art. he expounds on whether the fetus in the womb has a soul as opposed to accepting the wisdom of the church. so you have michelangelo, his contemporary, who's sort of the agony and ecstacy of religion, whereas leonardo goes to church,

he's a believer, he's a spiritual, but he'll use science to question received wisdom. >> walter, incredible. you mentioned the fossils, the weapons, the birds, the optics. you also write if leonardo had been born in the 21st century, chances are somebody would have medicated him. >> well, he was depressed at times, he had demons that drove him. he got distracted, he put things away or he went down rabbit holes in a totally obsessive way. i worry that he would have had three or four diagnoses and the thing is that he's allowed to deal with his demons and dragons and dreams the way that he wanted to. >> all right, walter, thank you so much. stay with us. coming up next, dow futures point to another record just a day after hitting 23,000 for the first time. brian sullivan is with us from cnbc trying to put it all in perspective. walter here as well next on "morning joe." when you have moderate to severe ulcerative colitis,

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you'll always be absolutely...clear. yeah, i got some financialbody guidance a while ago. how'd that go? he kept spelling my name with an 'i' but it's bryan with a 'y.' yeah, since birth. that drives me crazy. yes. it's on all your email. yes. they should know this? yeah. the guy was my brother-in-law. that's ridiculous. well, i happen to know some people. do they listen? what? they're amazing listeners. nice. guidance from professionals who take their time to get to know you. the dow jones hit 23,000 for the first time yesterday closing just three points short of the mark. still the highest it's ever been. only 76 days have passed since the dow hit 22,000 for the first time. this is the fourth straight

climb and the most ever in a year. let's bring in cnbc's brian sullivan. brian, i always have people telling me record stock market, record this, record that. i remember my brother, what was it, 29 years ago went to work for smith varney. his first day was black friday. >> bad timing. great timing if he bought. >> i think it was pretty good for him but the anniversary is tomorrow. >> yeah. i mean put it into perspective. 30 years ago if you were alive or if you were a kid, the market fell 22%. let's put that in perspective. you know what that would have been today in a points drop? 5200 points. >> wow. >> if that happened, literally what hair i have left would be gone and i would have run out in the street at cnbc because that would be unprecedented, unlikely to happen again due to certain curves. but your point at the beginning very well taken. this market is the juggernaut. it is the unstoppable bull market. >> does it make sense? does it make sense? is it connected to the realities

of what's happening in american business right now? because after every collapse, we always say, well, wait a second, that was artificially inflated. does it make sense that we're setting records every week? >> you interview a lot of politicians, so i'll give you the politician's answer. yes and nochlt y. yes, it does because earnings growth is good. the world is growing faster than we are. if you're a big company who sells stuff to france, to germany, to spain, i know we've highlighted their problems a lot. guess what, the entire world is reflating, europe, asia. if you're a multi national, you tell more over there, earnings are up. trump can take credit for it. there's probably a part of the animal spirits that are in that growth that is very good. if we get tax reform some people say we could add another 5% to 10% to this rally. >> what about the tech stocks, why are they up so much? >> walter, if you figure that out, write another book and tell me about it before you publish it. what do we all have in common?

we may not have a product in common. the yogurt joe eats may not be what katty eats but the semi conductor is the same one. all these new technologies. some of these valuations, i'm not saying they're high, it's not my job, but i've been doing this 20 years. >> how aware is the street of the fact, i think, that as the market just soars, the emphasis among people on income inequality also rises. >> that's an excellent point, mike, as usual. we sometimes use the terms income inequality and wealth inequality. it's not the same. income is what your boss pays you. wealth is what you own. so wealth goes up, income hasn't grown as much. >> walter, as our remaining moment, circle back to the book. are there any lessons from da vinci we can apply today? is it that curiosity? >> well, we could all be more

curious and observant but we could understand a few things brian is talking about. first of all, in florence at the time you had because of banking and finance coming into its own a great growth of middle and upper middle class wealth and they were patrons of science and the arts. but it was also an incredibly tolerant town. it had immigrants coming in from the fall of constantinople. it had people who were gay like michelangelo and leonardo. it was tolerant of just forms of expression. this is why the renaissance is happening. there's a backlash for a while when they come in, starts burning books, called the bonfire of the vanities. general, there is a move to more inclusion and more tolerance which is why you get creative people. >> walter, thank you for being here. the book is "leonardo da vinci." great to have you here again.

that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. stephanie. >> thanks so much, joe. good morning. i'm stephanie ruhle with a lot to cover this morning, starting with after a day of backlash, the president calls the families of soldiers killed in action. now new controversy over what a congresswoman says the president told a grieving widow. >> he was almost like joking. she was in tears. and she said he didn't even remember his name! >> a rare bipartisan deal is struck to save a part of obamacare. >> chairman alexander and i were able to find common ground to stabilize the markets. >> democrats head to the white house this morning to talk tax reform, but with less than 30 days left in the legislative year, will anything else actually get done? plus, money, power, politics. [ bell ringing ] the dow crossing another milestone,