but first, we focus on the feud that is continuing. it erupted this week between the white house and congresswoman frederica wilson, a feud that doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon. president trump calling the florida democrat "wacky" on twitter and wilson calling out the president and his chief of staff, john kelly, about now debunk accusations about his remarks during a 2015 building dedication. >> that's the way he is, and i'm sick of him giving people nicknames. he doesn't want me to give him a nickname. john kelly is almost, i guess you could say he was a muppet of the president, and what he was trying to do was divert the attention away from the president on to me, and he basically just lied on me. and i don't like -- i don't appreciate people lying on me. not only does he owe me an apology, but he owes an apology to the american people, because when he lied on me, he lied to them.

>> nbc's mike viqueira live for us at the white house. and these are the congresswoman's boldest remarks just yet about the controversy, and we know that general kelly had asked reporters to have better sources. and then he comes back a week later and provides information that turns out not to be accurate. >> reporter: not accurate, and demonstrably so after that video surfaced referencing what has become yet another of the side battles here. after all, there are four american servicemen who lost their lives in niger, sergeant ladavid johnson buried just yesterday, of course. that was the genesis, the origin of all of this controversy that has now exploded into a political side show. and after all, thomas, we're talking about some very serious and sacred issues involving the lives of servicemen and women as well as national security. and many of those questions have not been answered. namely, what is the mission in

niger? how did this incident in which these servicemen lost their lives go down? the back-and-forth continues, you're absolutely right. president trump this morning carrying out into a sixth day. hey, we're heading into a fresh, new week. this controversy shows no signs of abating now. you see the tweet from president trump earlier today. he's on the golf course now. calling congresswoman wilson wacky, "the gift that keeps on giving to the republican party," making this an overtly political issue to this point. for her part, you saw congresswoman wilson here on msnbc on "a.m. joy" earlier today, calling chief of staff john kelly, a former four-star general, a puppet of the president, trying to divert attention from what she sees as president trump's failures in nine months in office. and in response to a lot of these slings and arrows, calling her wacky, calling her an empty barrel as the chief of staff here in the west wing, john kelly, did in that controversial press conference, she says this is simply character assassination. thomas? >> mike viqueira reporting at the white house for us.

thank you, mike. i appreciate it. joining us right now is "associated press" white house reporter katherine lucy, national political reporter for nbc news digital, jonathan allen, and msnbc political contributor, morgan state university professor and politics editor at theroot.com, jason johnson. great to have you all here. jonathan, let me start out of the gate with you. as you hear congresswoman wilson say that kelly needs to apologize, you also have several newspapers using their op eds to suggest the same thing. if kelly doesn't apologize, is this a problem for his credibility as chief of staff? >> i'm not sure that he necessarily ends up needing to apologize to make this controversy go away, but it would certainly help him if the president stopped repicking his fight with congresswoman wilson. we'll have to see what john kelly does and says, but you know, already there was a backtrack from his point of view that a four-star general shouldn't be questioned, or i guess sarah huckabee sanders had said it that way.

you know, this is a controversy that doesn't seem to be going away, and yet, you've got a white house that's heading into a big tax debate on capitol hill and could be focused on that. rather, they are continuing to deal with this ongoing controversy. >> so we know, jason, thursdays have not been a kind day to chief of staff kelly this month. i just want to go over what the headlines have been for thursdays in october. his personal cell phone compromised on october 5th, that headline came out, something that happened while he was over at homeland security. he then declares he's not quitting a week later and also tells reporters that he recommends they have better sourcing. and then his remarks about congresswoman wilson this past thursday. there is only one thursday left in this month, so that might be the best news for general kelly, but is this a bad out-of-the-gate moment for general kelly when he was just being introduced, taking this more public role so people could get to know him and what he's doing behind the scenes? >> the problem i see is the

presumption that general kelly was somehow better than what we've seen in the white house already. he's had a terrible, very bad month, but then again, most of this administration has been a series of unfortunate and absolutely avoidable mistakes. i think the greatest problem that we saw with the attack on the member of congress is, this was not a tit for tat, this was not a back and forth. this was a member of congress expressing her concerns about how the president spoke to a constituent of hers who gave his life for this country, and she was attacked for that, and john kelly lied, and trump lied, and it perpetuated their tendency to attack black women, whether it's jemele hill, susan rice or ryan, and that reflects the administration. it's a terrible month, but it's a reflection of a terrible administration. i'm not surprised to see this behavior continue. >> meanwhile, we have to get more details about what happened in niger, and we now that we have the congresswoman saying that this might be this administration's benghazi. the details are still the big issue here, because we do not

know about the mission, how it was authorized, and the purpose. >> that's right. and i mean, as this political conflict continues, there is a big question, and there are a lot of questions coming from lawmakers about what exactly happened here. was there an intelligence failure? why were they in this location? and we just don't have the answers yet. we don't have a full sort of accounting on what happened, and i think that is a big piece of this going forward into this week. i think it's certainly likely that we could continue to see more of this political conflict, but in theory, we are also going to hear more about -- get more calls for information about what happened and potentially more detail there. >> and we know with senator lindsey graham kind of giving hi besh lee hype yesh lee or rhetoric about what this means, he was on "meet the press" today kind of clarifying his remarks about the importance of why we need to have an eye on this part of the world. take a look. >> what happened in afghanistan

is that you had a government that fell, replaced by a radical organization, the taliban, a government that invited international terrorists in and to be their welcome guests. so what i worry about africa, it becomes the new platform for people to come to. the ungoverned spaces of africa is where the terrorists will come after you defeat them in syria, iraq and afghanistan. >> jonathan, congresswoman wilson also said the same thing about putting a better and greater focus on africa and porous issues there. do you agree with that? >> well, i think that's certainly what the conclusion is of our defense department and our intelligence community. we can see from where we've had attacks on americans, whether they be in the state department, whether they're cia officers or the military. in libya a few years ago. you see that in niger. we've seen attacks in other parts of africa, somalia. so, obviously, this is something that is of great concern to those who most study our

vulnerabilities to terrorist actors, and of course, the vulnerabilities of other governments to terrorists. so you know, when senator graham says that this is the next hotspot and to expect more, not less u.s. involvement in africa in the future, you know, i think people ought to listen to that and believe that he knows what he's talking about. >> meanwhile, we have the president continuing this feud with congresswoman wilson. senate republicans passing a budget proposal, a key step forward on tax reform. does this really threaten to derail the republican efforts on tax reform and other legislative initiatives, the big work that needs to be done, while people focus on a war of words of trump and wilson? >> i think what we know is it's certainly a distraction. we spent a week where most of the attention and a lot of the president's commentary and attention has been on this political fight, rather than what he has stated is his biggest domestic goal, which is doing something around taxes.

and i mean, i think what we're looking to now going into this week is, is that going to change or is it going to continue? is it still going to be a big part of the conversation as opposed to tax policy and how he wants to reform that? >> jason, what about the initiative moving forward? we got earlier a report to nbc, confirmation that the president is going to join a call at 4:30 today to talk about budget and tax reform. we know he's going to be with senate republicans on tuesday. how big of a push can he make in kind of the cult of personality on trump on this? >> well, he can make a big push. look, the president's main job is to rally congress around whatever his agenda is. the problem that many members of congress have been facing is the president seems so easily distracted, and he also has a tendency to attack the very same people that he's working with. so, when he makes this call, it's not just, look, we've got to deliver this new budget, we've got to start pushing through tax reform because that's what we promised our

constituents -- he's got to pledge that he won't attack them, throw somebody against them in a primary. to be honest, if republicans can't get this done now, if they can't get something accomplished in this session, they're not going to do anything next year in an election year. and the president needs to be made aware of that or it's a waste of time. >> thank you. appreciate your time. we have spent a lot of time talking about the back and forth of president trump and congresswoman wilson and what it means to respect gold star families. so, coming up, i'm going to be speaking to one of my friend's daughters. we lost sergeant john quinlan in service in 2007. his daughter, keelie, who's 21, all grown up now, and she's written a really riveting article for "teen vogue" about the take a knee controversy in this country. we speak to her next. stay with me. we got a yes! what does that mean for purchasing? purchase. let's do this. got it. book the flights! hai! si! si! ya! ya! ya! what does that mean for us?

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instead of advising the president that restraint and dignity is the call of the moment, former general kelly indulged in defending behavior of the president and made the situation even worse. our political leaders elected by the people are deserving of equal dignity and equal respect instead of being maligned on misstated facts. >> so, there we have skikhizr k, the gold star father and is taking aim at how trump's chief of staff handled the controversy over condolence calls from this white house. it's a real honor and prirvileg to introduce you to kilie quib

lan. her father, officer quinlan, was killed in 2007. he was a helicopter pilot and they crashed in afghanistan. there were survivors of this crash, and john was credited for making sure that they survived landing in a very terrible storm. in full disclosure, john and i went to grade school together. his mom was my fifth grade teacher. john's sister, susan, was my prom date for many times, and this is john's daughter, the oldest of three. good to have you here. you know i love you and your family. and losing john was a terrible loss. you have written a great piece for "teen vogue" that's out, and it started appearing last month, talking about the take a knee controversy. but with this headline, what does it mean to you when gold star families get used and politicized in such a way that calls into question the emotions and the respect that we should show? >> well, i think the real issue is all of the assumptions being made.

i don't know if trump fully understands what it means to sacrifice the things that i have or the other gold star families have as well, you know, especially for him to say he's also made sacrifices. i personally took a lot of offense to that. i wish he knew what it felt like to, you know, miss your father for like half of your childhood and now the rest of my life. and yeah, the politicization is honestly so offensive. >> when you think about the defense of a call or a president reaching out and sometimes a family would rather have privacy. >> yeah. >> i know in your case there was not a call from president bush? >> there wasn't a call. i believe we got a letter. my mom wasn't able to find it. i asked her last night to see if she could pull it up, but just

couldn't find it. >> and the family was invited to the white house because the funeral was in arlington. >> we were -- yeah, because we were in d.c., but we were just too tired. there was -- you know, when you're going through something so emotionally draining as having lost someone, i just, i don't think it would have been the right moment either. >> i remember that funeral vividly. >> yeah. >> because i was there with my family, and seeing your family, it's one of the hardest days. >> it was. >> and knowing your dad, because your dad was so great. if you knew john quinlan, he was this fiery redhead, so funny, always tearing around on his bmx bike, and they had a great driveway, the quinlans did, growing up. and he was always racing up and down doing tricks and playing heavy metal music, which was funny and creepy, and your dad had a great sense of humor, but he gave you great respect for the military. so when it comes to taking a knee, it's nfl sunday, there will be players doing that. you wrote the piece and talked about what the flag means and

also why john died basically fighting for their right to do so. >> for their right to protest. i mean, the problem i had with people using fallen troops and veterans even as a guise for ignorance and as a guise to be able to look away from the events that were actually happening. the protest wasn't even about the anthem. it wasn't about the flag. it was the fact that unarmed black people are being killed at a highly -- much higher rate than any other group. and the fact that they were taking offense to that protest as being an insult to the flag and anthem i think speaks volumes to the things that they believe stand for that. >> you also talk in your piece in "teen vogue" about our comfort levels are being pushed.

>> yes. >> because we are showing up to something or we're being forced to have to learn something -- >> yeah. >> -- that takes us out of our comfort zones and remind us of the realities of what's going on. >> definitely, and i think when people watch the nfl, you know, they're expecting entertainment, they want to watch a game, but in the real world, things are going on, and i applaud colin kaepernick for taking a knee. i really do, and everyone else who did as well, because he's basically almost sacrificed his entire career, you know? no one's hiring him. it hurts me that he has to now go through this just to call attention to a systemic issue that no one wants to talk about. >> so, you're 21 years old, right? >> yes. >> which is amazing to think about. look at this, keely quinlan now 21 years old. >> oh, weird. >> john passed when you were 10. >> yeah. >> you have two younger sisters. >> yeah. >> how's your mom doing?

how's the family doing? >> good. >> because when it comes to the realities of gold star families, we get to learn names, but we don't get to know about life and times. >> yeah. >> afterwards. and the simple things. >> yeah. i mean, on a day dauy basis, it's become a little bit easier now. it's been ten years. but i mean, with all this in the media now, it's like almost opening a wound every time i get on twitter to see how the president's insulted gold star families today. and it also takes a toll on, you know, my mom and my family, i think. it almost puts us through the ringer. it's opening another wound again and again and again. so, i just -- >> with the chief of staff being john kelly and, you know, his experience of being a member of -- you know, the fact that he lost his son, gold star family member, is it confusing at all to think of the president maybe

using some type of manipulation of this man or his service and his loss to explain away how he would perform a condolence call? >> well, i think for the condolence call and for them to question why the congresswoman was there -- i mean, she was a friend of theirs. and for them to exploit that and then say they shouldn't have reacted in that way, it's very odd to me. it's very odd and divisive. and the way that it was -- i don't know how to phrase this. it just -- there was nothing right about it. >> the way that it's been described -- >> yeah, the way, yeah. >> and the comfort that families get from those calls, we can't federally regulate those types of emotions. >> yeah. we didn't get a call. we got a letter, so, and we

weren't offered $25,000. like. and it also is awful that the white house is claiming that the check is in the mail and they've not received anything. so those open-ended promises, the continual, like dragging through the mud, it's just, enough is enough. >> well, i know your dad and grandma kate was my fifth grade teacher who gave me a "d" in math, by the way. i might as well tell that to the world. i know they're looking down and smiling and how proud they are of you, and i am, too. >> oh, geez. >> i love you, keely, and thank you for sharing your story. i no longer live with

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>> thank you, thomas. that's very kind. >> get that out of the way first. you deserve it. >> i appreciate it. >> but this is big news. the president is going to at least be on this call and then be in person at the senate republican luncheon on tuesday. does he have the personality power to exhibit to get something done right now? >> well, thomas, i'm not sure in this case if the question is necessarily going to be about his -- well, i guess it will be about his personality insomuch as there's some nervousness on capitol hill about whether or not that personality we've come to know so well is going to derail tax reform somewhere along the way. there's increasing momentum, i think, behind a bill in the broad strokes. there are a lot of republicans who are feeling a lot of pressure about needing to get this done and get this done as soon as possible, and there's been some forward movement on timing for republicans. mick mulvaney, for example, was talking this morning on the sunday shows about mark meadows, the freedom caucus, for example, saying that it's okay to accept the senate budget that was just passed last week, at least for

the most part. that may not seem like a big deal, but it shaves perhaps about two weeks off of the timeline. and with less than a month in legislative days to go before the new year, that means a lot for republicans who are trying to get this done. the challenge for tax reform and part of why i think the details of what the president gets into on this call are going to be important if he gets into any of them, because any one of these smaller things could potentially threaten to derail the entire package. for example, there's some conversations about how much americans would be able to put in 401(k)s, for example. the president has expressed some frustration every time he's been confronted, according to reporting, about something that might hurt middle class taxpayers in this bill. he doesn't want to do that, but there are some on capitol hill who feel differently about some of these individual measures. so, there's both, i think, reason for the republicans who care about this, there's reason to be optimistic, but the president is a big wild card, and you know, it's not 100% clear to a lot of them where he's going to land on so many

things. there's so many opportunities for this to be derailed, thomas. >> how influential, kasie, is the tethering of a chief of staff kelly for donald trump at such a pivotal time when we know that doing something in tax reform is a big deal for him? >> i think general kelly -- you know, i think the question is going to be does he move beyond this in a way that allows him to continue to play the role that many on capitol hill had come to understand him playing. he essentially has been acting as a gatekeeper, something of a disciplinarian, and that is going to be a very important role in kind of guiding something as big as tax reform through the congress and in helping the president understand, you know, there are -- the president is still, republicans will say, relatively new to the governing process. there are a lot of unseen land mines in a bill that is as big as tax reform. the president could say something on twitter or say something in an interview that he may not realize could jeopardize the whole enterprise,

but you know, he could go there by accident anyway. and so, i think there's a sense on the hill that kelly plays a very important role in minimizing those kinds of events, and i think the question is going to be, in the wake of the past week, he's clearly under pressure still from democrats to come out and say something publicly about his remarks about congresswoman wilson. is he going to come out of this a diminished figure with less power and sway with the president? i would say that, you know, white house insiders don't necessarily think that that's what's going to happen here because, you know, this is a situation where kelly clearly went out there in defense of the president. that was a very public demonstration of the dhind the president typically understands, but i do think there's still a little bit of a question mark from folks on capitol hill. >> when we think about this call happening at 4:30, we know by 7:00 tonight, you will have worked your deep bench of sources. >> fingers crossed. >> so explain what you have coming up this evening. >> thomas, we have a great discussion planned with an all-veterans panel, general

barry mccaffrey, the iraq and afghan veterans, and ray mavis, former secretary of the navy. we'll dig into the latest on what happened in niger and all of the political questions surrounding that. we'll also talk a lot of politics and what's coming up next this week on capitol hill. it's going to be a very critical couple of weeks for a series of major issues, including first tax reform, also health care, what about d.r.e.a.m.er kids, for example. that's another thing that's on the docket for congress. we'll also talk a little bit about steve bannon. i have a panel of journalists planning to join me. we'll also talk to joe manchin, senator from west virginia, and the virginia governor, terry mcauliffe. that's the next race coming here. ralph northam, tdemocrat runnin in a close contest. former president obama getting on the campaign trail there. >> looking forward to that. congratulations on the new show

"kasie dc." we'll see you tonight. what's in store for democrats approaching the midterm elections? yes, kasie's going to be getting into that tonight, but we had house minority leader nancy pelosi talking with "a.m. joy" earlier today and the role of women. >> women are watching, women are showing up, women marched, women are running for office. we have to win. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ this time it's his turn. you have 4.3 minutes to yourself. this calls for a taste of cheesecake. new philadelphia cheesecake cups. rich, creamy cheesecake with real strawberries.

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welcome back, everybody. i'm thomas roberts here at msnbc headquarters in new york. the latest headlines for you. the white house, the feud with congresswoman frederica wilson entering its sixth day. the president tweeting this morning, "wacky congresswoman wilson, the gift that keeps on giving for the republican party." now, wilson has asked for an apology from white house chief of staff general john kelly for what she says lying on her. football player colin kaepernick's attorney is speaking out this morning with reverend al sharpton on "politicsnation," saying that president trump's tweets are threatening and one of the main

reasons why kaepernick is being left off nfl rosters currently. >> we've filed under the collective bargaining agreement. and one of the reasons we did that is because colin specifically wants to get back on the field and play. i think you've seen during this past week, we filed exactly a week ago, almost to the hour, and since then, some of the owners have met in new york, and the owner of his former team, jed york, came out and said specifically that he didn't think that the nfl owners should be intimidated by the president's tweets, and neither do we. we think that that is one of the reasons why he hasn't been signed. >> all right, so, let's give you an update on the boys of summer, as we get into fall. with last night, the astros beating the yankees in game seven of the american league championship, 4-0, the dodgers now facing off against the astros in this year's world series. pretty wild matchup that's going

to be. so, back to politics. with republicans potentially facing what could be a very tough election for the 2018 midterms. we had house minority leader nancy pelosi on msnbc earlier with my colleague, joy reid, and pelosi believes that democrats can be successful at taking back the majority. >> this is when we get a team, they don't. this is when you see their retirements, because members of congress who formally just had an easy run of it will have a tougher one, and they know there's the prospect of serving in the minority. so you will see a number of retirements on their side. >> all right, so far, about a dozen republicans in the house and senate opted not to seek re-election in 2018, but is that really going to make a difference? i'm going to bring in our panel. former gop representative tatum jolly and democratic strategist peter emerson. gentlemen, good to have you with me. congressman jolly, i want to begin with you because you've got a lot of people and their

ears perked up. as a former representative for florida's 13th district, when you told lawrence o'donnell that the nation could be better off if the dems take back office in 2018. i want to remind the folks at home. take a look. >> i personally as a republican in the past few weeks have wondered, is the republic safer if democrats take over the nous 2018? we do know that we have a president who very well might put this nation at risk, and this republican congress has done nothing to check his power. democrats could, and we might be better off as a republic if they take the house in 2018. >> so, i want your assessment, sir, about the safer aspect to democratic control in the house. >> sure. >> explain that. >> the stability of a divided government when you have a president and the executive branch who is continually volatile, right? we hear stories of his national security team almost having to baby sit him at times. and we also know there is very little articulatable agenda of the republicans right now.

listen, i did not wake up and become a democrat. frankly, there's no room in the democratic party for a center-right, i suppose mainstream conservative like myself, but i do worry about where this president's taking us, and we know divided government has a way to bring to a halt some of the radicalization and normalization of what we're seeing in the trump white house, and frankly, republicans have failed to step up to it. and in failing to step up to it, i believe they have put our nation at risk. >> peter, you were shaking your head there as congressman jolly was talking about his views or being of center-right. and where are the democrats lacking? because it seems the midterms are never a good time for democrats, and the voters for them are not going to be overly engaged, or are they because of president trump? >> well, you would think after a major failure, a major defeat, the democratic party, as with an individual, would do some soul-searching and some house-cleaning. instead, the only thing that's happened is hillary clinton has written a book posing the question "what happened?" and the questions are woefully,

woefully inadequate. we have no boldness in terms of our policy, we have no leadership in the democratic party. we're relying entirely on criticizing donald trump. and the best thing we've come up with that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars is a slogan called a better deal, which is more appropriate for a sale at a local furniture store than galvanizing democrats across the country. and i wish representative jolly could join the democratic party. we should have an all-inclusive tent, and he should be part of that, because i agree with everything he said about the nature of the instability of this presidency. >> yeah, a better deal's like a retailmenot.com. >> exactly. >> but congressman jolly, the importance of the president to maintain what he has in terms of the house and the senate for 2018. there aren't great legislative accomplishments. >> no. >> but he can try to get something done with having both of those things much better than he can if the democrats take over.

>> well, certainly, but at the same time, listen, i have always had concern about the president's policies as well. i took to the house floor when he was a candidate and called for the muslim ban, i called for him to drop out of the race. i don't think he reflects traditional republican values, and so when i see republicans on capitol hill enabling him, i have the same frustration. but to the point earlier -- listen, democrats have to make some hard decisions here. is it enough to simply run against trump expecting this wave in '18? or how do you handle two clear issues -- the gun issue, right? we know that a year ago, democrats were having a sit-in in the house, but coming off of vegas, chuck schumer has said to the senators, let's not have gun control amendments right now because they're too sensitive going into the '18 cycle. we also know this question of impeachment is going to come up and will be a litmus test for many progressives when they are looking at democratic candidates. and yet, i think you'll hear pelosi and schumer say let's not go that far on impeachment just yet. >> 25th amendment.

>> 25th amendment. and we must, must remember that elections are won or lost in the marketplace of emotions, and democrats have not struck that chord of emotions with the vast majority of americans. >> no, we have not learned that yet for the democratic side. the republican side, the president definitely hits emotions. polls a the lot of times and puts it out on twitter, 140 characters or less. peter, we'll ask you to stick around. former representative david jolly, always nice to have you on air. >> great to be with you. so, it is a hallmark of his rallies and a favorite phrase since the campaign trail. >> it was fake news. it was a total phony story. all i can say is it's totally fake news. call it fake media. it's fake. >> fake news? >> so much fake news. >> all right, so, newsmakers, newfakers, how many americans really believe news organizations are lying when it comes to the president? new polling results could surprise you. stay tuned.

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the fake news media, you've heard it before. that is how president trump labels just about any news outlet in america that is not conservative leaning. but it may be more than just a name. yeah, it could be sticking. in this new poll from politico and morning consultants shows nearly half of voters think that the media could be making up stories about the president. now, today the president tweeted his approval, saying, "it is finally sinking through. 46% of people believe major national news orgs fabricate stories about me. fake news, even worst! lost cred." nbc news national political correspondent steve kornacki joins us with a breakdown about those exact numbers. steve? >> well, you know, look, the president, we know that he has made attacking the news media a central part of his political strategy, a central part of his messaging, and this is a heck of a finding here about the effect that that might be having. check this out.

new poll here asking a question, do major news organizations -- look at the word here -- do they fabricate? that's a very strong word. do they fabricate stories about president trump? and look at the finding. 46% of the country, 46% of americans in this survey say they believe that major news organizations fabricate stories about this president. a smaller number, 37% say they don't think that's the case. there is, as you might expect on this, there is a pretty severe party split on this. we can take you through that. look, start among republicans. basically, three out of four republicans believe that the media, the major national media, is fabricating stories about trump. among democrats, most notable, about 20% one in five democrats also say they believe this is the case. and when you look at independents, it's a plurality, 44% of independents say they believe that the media is fabricating stories about president trump. now, we should note, there is a little bit of ambiguity here in

terms of the wording of this. you know, donald trump is out there. he likes to say fake news, fake news media, don't believe it. so maybe this reflects that breaking through and resonating with some people. we should say, though, this is asking about major news organizations. there are a lot of news organizations out there, some on the left, some on the right, some in the middle, that could be considered major news organizations, so it does raise a question. look at 209% of democrats. do they think that the fabrications are working in trump's favor or working against trump? so, there's some ambiguity here. but again, it's a huge party split. that is a pretty serious word to use there, fabrication, and that finding, i think whatever side you're on, that's a pretty surprising finding. 46% of americans say they think the major media is fabricating stories about this president. back to you. >> all right, steve, thank you. and those are fascinating numbers, right? so we're going to break them down. peter is still here, and also former congressman jolly join me on the other side of this break. stay with me. whoooo.

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welcome back, everybody. we are talking about fake news and just how many americans believe the president's allegations against the media. here to sort out these issues, former congressman david jolly and democratic strategist peter emerson. just to put it out there, we are all real people in a real capacity, flesh and bone and everything like that and i am not here to lie to you. but as we look at these numbers, we can kind of pull away a few facets as we look into where the country feels. and again, this is about major news organizations and the question of fabricating stories about trump with 20% saying yes, democrats, 76% of republicans say yes. this is huge when we think about this. and former congressman jolly, let me just ask you, for the gop, who can see and believe things for themselves, just coming out of the president's mouth, 76% of them still would

say that news organizations are lying about how they report on him. >> look, it's a favorite tool of the right to criticize the media, and it's a safe place for many republicans. and i think the president's just doubling down on that. but i would also point out that 46% is exactly the amount of the popular vote that donald trump got. so, it may be we're just seeing some type of affinity between those who voted for donald trump or are sympathetic to his policies. but the reason the press is skeptical and needs to be is this is a president who has lied repeatedly from the time he became a candidate, from mexico paying for the wall to having health care on day one to this week saying he'd contacted every gold star family. we need a media to be skeptical of this president because he's continued to lie, and the media, ultimately, can hold him more accountable at times than his base will ever do. >> peter, one of the bigger numbers that you found more interesting is the 17%, right? the people -- >> undecided. >> undecided. they just don't know. >> it's either really hopeful or it's really, really disturbing

that 17% of americans, at least in that poll, have not made up their mind whether the president's fabricating. what it does prove is that the president is a marketer. he's not a businessman. it's clear. he went $900 million in debt as a businessman. he's a superb marketer, and the two basic rulst of markes of mad advertising are consistency and frequency, and that's all he does. >> if we can put the poll back up and just look at the way this comes out, and we think about this question specifically about news organizations fabricating stories, basically, they think we are marketing these fabrications about the president and kind of pulling out of thin air whatever we want. >> because he's saying that, regularly, consistently, frequently. and so, i think as representative jolly pointed out, there is a core base that no matter what he says or does, whether he lies, cheats or steals, they're with him and they're driving some of these poll findings. we don't actually know the demographics of that poll.

so even though there may be a statistically balanced response, we really don't know. so i'm not that worried. what i am worried about is the fact that the majority of americans, republicans, democrats, independents, libertarians, do not trust the basic institutions of america any longer, including the media. >> but isn't it funny, though, congressman jolly, the fact that the president diminishes polls, diminishes the news, but then will use this headline as a way to solidify himself in the way that his message about fake news is working. >> it is consistent with his pattern as a candidate and as president. every day he has to put a binary choice in front of his supporters. you're either with him or you are with somebody critical of him, and that's the way he continues to keep his base. at the end of the day, it's one of the great moral failings of this president, his attempt to undermine the free press, and it's shameful. >> with the foundations of

democracy kind of being in peril here, politicians look at this and think what, donald trump is a unique political animal, or is there something for other politicians to learn about a successful strategy that can work for people? >> unfortunately, yes, because the most powerful emotion is fear. and if you can play that as well as donald trump did, then in the future, you can build on that mistrust, that distrust that people have. the problem is, we're at about 53% of americans no longer believe the american dream is available to them. and worst of all, it's not available to their children, that tomorrow will not be better for them than it was today. that's the very american promise. that's the fabric of american society. so, donald trump's relationship to the truth, as representative jolly pointed out, is the same as harvey weinstein's relationship to women. >> but we have the american carnage inaugural speech. >> right. >> i mean, that was from the president in january. congressman jolly, when peter makes this correlation between, say a weinstein and a trump,

there are people, democrats that piled on weinstein. trump, who faces similar allegations, has kind of matrixed his way out of it, sliding past them all. >> exactly. >> and if one of trump's failings is his undermining of a free press, the failing of his base is to accept as normal the activities of a president who bragged about sexual assault, and there is no excuse for that. his base will be with him, but there are mainstream republicans who held their nose and went along with it, and it's shameful. >> former representative from florida, david jolly, thank you, sir. peter emerson, thank you as well. we're going to be right back in just a moment with much more right here on msnbc.

♪ ♪ you nervous? ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ thanks for your time. i really appreciate it. i'm thomas roberts. stay with us. more news continues right now and we toss it over to yasmiyn via vossoughian. >> on the eve of the president being awarded the medal of

honor, why did trump's call to a grieving gold star family turn into such a political firestorm? here's your take. >> i feel he's the one who introduced, he's the one who politicized it. >> if it's going to be a priority of the administration, just make it that, and it doesn't have to be something that's always made publicized. >> the way that other people tried to characterize their grief or their issues, that should be off limits. they should be able to speak for themselves. >> and white house chief of staff john kelly's defense of trump falls short of the truth. is the four-star general getting a pass and should he apologize for his misstatements? >> not only does he owe me an apology, but he owes an apology to the american people, because when he lied on me, he lied to them. and with sexual assault allegations against harvey weinstein and bill o'reilly dominating the headlines, president trump's accusers want to know, why is there a double standard? >> i would like to