that lee harvey oswald was in some way a cia agent or agent? the document ends there. another question still unanswered. >> interesting. that does it for me tote on msnbc. i'm thomas roberts. thank you very much for your time. the news is going to continue right now with "a.m. joy." i think the uranium sale to russia and the way it was done so underhanded with tremendous amounts of money being passed, i actually think that's watergate modern age. all signs point to the likelihood robert mueller's sprawling russia investigation is drawing to a conclusion. cnn and the "wall street journal" and reuters reported special counsel robert mueller filed his first set of charges in a sealed grand jury indictment. anybody charged could reportedly be taken into custody as soon as monday. donald trump must feel the heat, could explain why he was back on

the offense this week claiming hillary clinton sold out our national security by supposedly personally approving a 7-year-old uranium deal with russia in exchange for a donation to the clinton foundation. a popular phrase, that story is fake news. debunk by snoops.com a long time ago. the red check mark. that hasn't stopped the trump administration from launching an attempt towards russia conspiracy margering. >> i think that our position hasn't changed since day one, and i think we are seeing now that if there was any collusion with russia it was between the dnc, the clintons and certainly not our campaign. >> trump is trying to discredit the most defining controversy of his presidency. using a fake russiagate scant toll put the blame on who else, a woman leader. now we're going to take a deeper dive into the real russiagate scandal. a scant 8 now including the revelation cambridge analytica

linked to trump through steve bannon and the gop's billionaire financier the mercers that they reached out to wikileakss fonder julian assange with an offer to help collate clinton e-mails hacked by russian operatives. it isn't a good look for the trump campaign raising questions about cambridge analytic kaw's role in russia's efforts to undermine the clinton campaign, but another key development, the one receiving the least attention. that the trump white house l belately far past the deadline and only after facing scrutiny from bob corker and john mccain. joining me now, a business insider, and author of "the future is history." and also from the russia pro-democracy movement and head of the global magnitsky justice campaign. great panel. thank you for being here.

slat m sl sha lad m have la have a l have -- vladamir, you first. >> a long tradition of u.s. policy towards russia that the administration, executive branch have reticent about sanctions fif you recall the magnitsky act how it came out five years ago, very much opposed tried to stop it and block it, but such a thing as separation of powers in this country and a strong and independent congress made the magnitsky act happen and pressure from congress on the administration to implement new sanctions in place. a milestone certainly a lot of people in moscow are looking forward to, the opposite are

looking forward to, i should say, the deadline in january and february of the publication of the names and information about oligarchs and persons of interest involved with vladimir putin in regards to corruption. mandated in section 241 of the new sanctions act. and suffice in russia to say that, the name of that article, section 241, everybody will know precisely what you're talking about. i've heard in recent days and weeks, many representatives of those oligarchs and financial groups, political financial groups, close to vladimir putin that have emissaries were sent to washington to see, possible somehow, not to name them and their associates in this report. i think that's the issue, and the deadline a lot of people will watch for. >> and can't be sorted out that the sampgds sanctions are a ver important issue, the motive

behind the coordination with the trump campaign? that's the motive? >> i don't know about the coordination. right? but we know that the sanctions get to him. i think the sanctions are absolutely brilliant and the brilliance of the sanctions, they challenge his power directly. he is a mafia boss who distributes money and power. the sanctions, by placing restrictions on the use of money and power, takes power directly away from putin. he perceives them as a personal threat. >> absolutely. and bill, you, of course, at the center part of the pushback against the magnitsky act. had your visa actually recently pulled. if you could explain briefly. i think restored, but explain briefly to the audience not up on that what happened with you personally regarding your visa in the past couple weeks. >> well, so i'd been working for a number of years on getting the magnitsky act passed, the sanctionses, and got it passed in the united states in 2012 and

last week the canadian government passed magnitsky sanctions and vladimir putin was absolutely furious. put me on the interpol most wanted list and as a result automatically had my u.s. visa canceled, i'm a british citizen. thankfully, my visa has been restored and interpol rejected russia's latest request, but tells me something when putin goes so vindictively after people doing these sanctions puts me on the interpol list right after the magnitsky act was passed. >> and you've been reporting, natasha, on the components of what is thought to have been potential coordination, we should say, between the trump campaign and wikileaks, at least specifically, right? tell us a little about what you learned this week about what cambridge analytic kaw, funded by the mercers was doing attempting to get out information that russia hackers apparently gave to wikileaks?

>> we learned last june the ceo of cambridge analytica reached out directly to julian assange and asked him to help find hillary clinton's missing e-mails, before wikileaks released the hacked e-mails end of july. also before the cambridge analytic kaw started working for the trump campaign. we know this coordination are from cambridge analytic kaw afted well through august because the mercers were asking the ceo if they could index and help organize all of the hacked dnc e-mails as late as august. a the that point we already knew that the e-mails were stolen by the russians. in essence, asking to help coordinate the release and index of these hacked e-mails. >> in addition to that, you had the revelation this week, nets

s veselnitskaya, shared with the chief prosecutor in russia, correct? >> right. when this. oh came out, the one natalia brought with her to trump tower, there were remarkable similarities between that memo and the one the russian pross kurpt office had given to congressman two moss earnths ea and i asked bill what do you make of this? looks like the strongest evidence to-date she was or is an agent of the kremlin. >> and you mean bill, comment on that. that is one of the direct links between the proffer of help taking down hillary clinton and somebody who might have been working directly with the kremlin. >> yeah. i would actually go one stem further in that there's three different people who are quoting from the same talking points. there was the veselnitskaya memo you mentioned.

the memo passed to congressman r roybalker and asked in sochi, went through exactly the same talking points word for word that all of those other two memos had. what do they tell you? tells you nain nanain a -- nata there on behalf of the kremlin, on an important government mission, get rid of the magnitsky act. absurd, now that this information has all become available. >> and why this fixation not just on clinton e-mails and getting out dirt on hillary clinton but democratic voters. from vladimir putin's point of view, the kremlin's point of view, why that would be? >> all of this, all issues discussing in the end come back to one thing.

obsession from the kremlin, from vladimir putin personally, to try to get rid or at least undermine and reduce the effectiveness of the magnitsky act. that's the absolutely central issue here. for all the many similarities that exist between the putin have a she regime and regime in media censor ship, no free and fair elections in russia and so for. for all the similarities, one crucial difference. that is the people in charge of russia today, they want to steal in russia, but spend in the west. members of the soviet polec bureau didn't send them to western schools and banks, buy high-class real estate and luxury cars in western countries. these guys do. they want to undermine, attack and violate the most basic norms of democratic society and they want to use the privileges and opportunities the west offers for themselves and their families and the magnitsky act put a stop that that and the double standard. we've they've been obsessed

within three hours of his inauguration on may 7, 2012, vladimir putin signed a decree tanking foreign ministry trying to stop the law from being passed. before it was passed. several countries since then followed the country adopting similar measures. bill mentioned canada adopting its own magnitsky act in the past couple of weeks and lithuania is taking steps to become the second country in the european union to adopt these sampgdss. only two things vladimir putin and the regime are mortified of, mass protests in russia. frightens them, the sight of people on the streets. and see what happens to political oh poentsz of vladimir putin inside russia. harass, persecuted, imprisoned or dead as in the case of boris, played an instrumental role convincing the u.s. congress to pass the magnitsky act.

trying to use other mechanisms. also mort fiified, pockets, wal, bank accounts. stress not sanctions in russia in general. i don't think it makes much sense to try to punish and entire country for the actions of a small unelected group of people in the kremlin. personal targeted sanksdss on them personally and prepared to do anything to try to overturn that. >> and very important to make. when we talk about the russiagate, russia in general, it isn't russia but the small og gas oligarchy sitting at the top of it. think of vladimir putin, a can be goode agent, a guy with a background in doing this disinformation campaigns we've seen. this was particularly hamhanded. proffers of information were essentially given away in e-mails to donald trump jr. who then replies, great. if you've got dirt. it does feel like this sort of attempt to withdraw these

sanctions. veselnitskaya, no, the meeting was about adoptions. why so hamhanded, do you think? >> first of all, he is not the brilliant mastermind everybody, a lot of people think he is. second of all, we're overstating the evidence a little bit. in the sense that, yes, they're all using the same talking points. that doesn't mean that she was actually ordered by the kremlin or commissioned by the kremlin to go reach out to the trump campaign. i think she was quite sincerely representing her private client. it so happens her private client has extremely close ties to the prosecutor's office and in fact the entire magnitsky affair has close ties to the prosecutor's office. all in it together but all in it together in a messy way. not in a way that -- where they get orders and clear instructions and do it elegantly. elegantly is the last thing they are. >> absolutely. it does feel, natasha, the sloppiness is on both sides.

on the trump side of the ledger, offers made, reply in e-mails, yes, we'll take t. experts i've spoken to suggested that may have been on purpose. that perhaps there was an element of the russian influence campaign where they warranted everyone to know they were doing this. they left fingerprints on the dnc hacks, were very, very sloppy when it caming to hacking e-mails and made it very obvious to security researchers, they, it originated in russia. and a sense perhaps it was largely a trolling operation. >> yes. >> and sometimes people are just incompetent. >> that, too. finding out, yes, sometimes people have an outside reputation take, for instance, being a billionaire, a great business person, for instance. not necessarily proof of competency. bill, vladimir represented you, do you feel out of reach and that the government in the united states is acting contra your interests? >> at the moment, i have been

threatened with murder. i have been threatened with kidnapping, with arrest. the russians, actually, putin is coming after me any way he can. having said that, the government of the u.s., the government of the united kingdom, of canada, all have been quite helpful and robust in fending off these, at least extradition attempts and so on and so forth. because of what i'm doing and because of the damage that i'm causing i'm a high value target for vladimir putin. so i've got to take precautions that normal people wouldn't have to take in order to try to stay alive. >> we certainly wish you well. please, stay safe. i appreciate this panel, a great discussion. thank you to you all. really appreciate it. coming up a veteran of the ronald reagan white house has had enough of his former party and he has choice words for trump and his followers. bruce bartlett joins me next. america's beverage companies have come together to

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6 . they put on stories that are so false. they have so-called sources that, in my opinion, don't exist. you know, say sources have said -- they're -- they make it up. it is so dishonest. it is so fake. and you know, i've come up with pretty good names. i think one of the best names, i've started this whole thing. >> donald trump's claim to have invented fake news is, of course, fake news. there's nothing new about the term, but trump is right about being a fake news innovator to the extent he started this woe president who routinely invents

fake news. >> i call it tax cuts. it is tax reform also but ecall it tax cuts. it will be the biggest cuts ever in the history of this country, and joining me now is bruce bartlett. former deputy assistant secretary under president george herbert walker bush and author of a book "stopping fake news in its tracks." bruce, great to talk to you. your new book i've been reading through, it sort of, it tries to disseminate for people how to sort of protect yourself from fake news but you also talk about the fact there is two silos of information. conservative silo, media from one place and everyone else from another. how can people protect themselves if inside that conservative news bubble? >> i don't think they want to be protected, unfortunately. i mean, you've got a huge number of people in this country who get virtually all their news from fox, or they listen only to talk radio where you really only

hear the right wing point of view from rush limbaugh or sean hannity, and, if they're looking on the internet, they're reading the drudge report, or breitbart. they're in a closed loop where they never hear many facts. they hear lies, and so when they hear the same lie over and over again, we know this is called the big lie technique that joseph gerbils invented back in the 1930s, and unfortunately, it works. >> you know, also there is this thing where people within sort of the conservative be base want their news directly from donald trump. rely on his twitter feed, what he says himself, and in some cases that may wind up biting some people if policies he's supporting without telling them happen to come true. on that point talk about the 401(k) situation. the republican congress, members of congress, trying to write a budget they want a massive tax cut for the wealthy and part of the way they want to pay for that and offset it is

potentially go after the amount of money people can put in their 410ks and reduce that'shurting a lot of trump vote, a lot of people, period. this was donald trump talking about that issue literally reversing himself on it mid-sentence. take a listen. >> 401(k)s to me are very important and important because that's one of the great benefits to the middle class. >> chairman of the house ways and means committee said this morning -- [ inaudible ]. >> maybe it is. maybe we'll use it as negotiating. >> what do you suppose that people in trump's base hear when they hear that? he just admitted 401(k)s could be on the table after saying they would not be on the table? >> a more interesting question, what are republicans in congress thinking when they hear him do this sort of thing? when they hear -- can't even put forward a coherent piece of legislation without trump just pulling the rug out from under them? this is not the way tax reform is done. i'm very familiar with the tax reform act of 1986.

believe me, president reagan did not go on tv and just unilaterally take certain options off the table. he allowed his treasury secretary to do the heavy lifting so in was some coherence to the administration's position. >> yes. and you know, at the same time, this idea of tax cuts, i'm glad you mentioned the budget reform act of '86. you were very much involved in tax policy and economic and fiscal policy during the reagan era. it seems taxes cover all sins on the republican side, because they are all united in this idea of cutting taxes for the wealthy. they will literally excuse any behavior by donald trump. it's all fine with paul ryan and mitch mcconnell. they don't, seem to have an incredibly high toll ersan for aber rant behavior even talking about coddling neo-nazis just to get the tax cuts. wipe is that such an article of faith and a zealous sort of article of faith for people in the republican party? >> two reasons.

one is the people who contribute the vast bulk of the money to the republican party are the ultra wealthy people like robert mercer, adelson, the cokes. they save millions upon millions a year of taxes if they can get the top rate cut. secondly, a lot of republicans, such as paul ryan, i think in their heart of hearts really believe in a sort of ann or andean world, carry the rest of us on their backs. their incentives, taxes, are - extremely important, where as that on the rest of us has no significance whatsoever. >> and they seem determined to cut back on the great society and fdr era social safety net programs for the poor. what is that about? >> they've never given up -- one of the great things about the republican party they never

learn but also never forget. they're still fighting the new deal. still fighting the great society, and they're going to keep fighting them forever. i think one of the problems for democrats is they think that they've given up that is, the republicans, have given up some crusades and let down their defenses to concentrate on more recent, more current problems, and then they're blindsided when, say, president george w. bush tries to privatize social security. >> yeah. another thing that happened this week. you tweeted, might have been last night or this morning, you will not be able to vote for your old friend ed gillespie running for virginia. racist and pandering to neosupremist -- isn't it donald trump causing the republican party to sort of, i don't know, cuddle up to or excuse this kind of neoconfederate ideology that's kept into their base? >> well, you know, it's been

said many times and not all republicans are racist, but virtually allracists belong to the republican party today. i'll take the comment they used to be democrats. the democrats party used to be the party of the south and now the republicans are the party of the south and a lot of people refuse to admit that there's been any change. but i feel sorry for establishment republicans, people like ed gillespie, i used to work with in the 1980s, mitt romney or any number of others who have to be silent, are afraid to speak out in their own party for fear of being excommunicated. >> yes. indeed. this would be quite a time to speak out given what's going on. bruce bartlett, one of the great twitter follows. everyone should follow bruce on twitter. you're great with the media. great to talk to you. congratulations on the new book. coming up, with trump in

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the trump white house is in disarray and congressional democrats beating republicans in fund-raising ahead of the 2018 midterms. all good for the dems, right? nope. not quite. that part of the story is next.

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accused of obstructing justice to theat the fbinuclear war, and of violating the constitution by taking money from foreign governments and threatening to shut down news organizations that report the truth. if that isn't a case for impeaching and removing a dangerous president, then what has our government become? i'm tom steyer, and like you, i'm a citizen who knows it's up to us to do something. it's why i'm funding this effort to raise our voices together and demand that elected officials take a stand on impeachment. a republican congress once impeached a president for far less. yet today people in congress and his own administration know

that this president is a clear and present danger who's mentally unstable and armed with nuclear weapons. and they do nothing. join us and tell your member of congress that they have a moral responsibility to stop doing what's political and start doing what's right. our country depends on it. so right now democrats should be coming together to plot their strategy for the 2018 midterms. their next chance to take back powers in congress and potentially maybe even, i don't know, impeach donald trump. instead they're fighting each other. news from last week's dnc meeting in las vegas centered around a squabble over who would sit on key committees within the dnc, some claiming 9 dnc was purging supporters of bernie sanders and others claiming bernie supporters were trying to undermine women of color. what gives? joining me now, political

strategist, pollster and director for bernie sanders and deco d.c. start with a dust-up at the organizing meeting, supposed to be a positive organizing meeting for democrats wound up centering around who's getting purged? bernie sanders or black women. what happened? >> well, just -- that meeting and that organizing meeting sort of is an example of what's going on with democratic politics across the country. it's that there are multiple factions or groups with the party. right? and this is -- you know, both the democratic party and the republican party. >> sure. >> everybody, there are multiple groups to keep happy. but particularly for the democratic party. it has a -- a large communication and branding issue. there's the democratic party, the infrastructure. and then there's democratic party, the party and the democrats. here at this meeting, you have this perception, right, that the

democratic party was leaving on -- at the expense of women of color. right? and going forward with another agenda, going forward with other people who may not be democrats actually, and following this agenda even though it wasn't true, credit to the current chairman. we wasn't trying to do that. his slate included women of color, but the perception got out, right? so because of that, you already had a problem with women of color and with the base of the party not believing that the party has their values or has their back and will talk about later how that also plays out in different states. >> yes. >> and so when you don't have a communication infrastructure and don't have trust, right, between the communities or the base that you are supposed to represent, it's easy for those things to -- take legs. >> and marcus, i feel like in a lot of ways the republican party

is fighting to protect donald trump at all costs and the democratic party is still fighting the 2016 election, forever. right? seems an endless feed back tllo that will never end and sftacy abrams running for governor in georgia and wrote about fractionness between the white stacy, black stacy both running for governor in georgia and progressives, rose abbey side is supporting the white stacy or the black stacy. you got caught up in it as well. what's going on in the party? >> we have nazis running around with tiki torches and not talking about issues is what's going on. we're not having a both-and conversation when it comes to the party, we're having an either/or. to be quite honest, we need to make sure we are talking to both

constituencies and making sure we're reaching out. what's going on in georgia is interesting. stacy evans and stacy abrams running for governor of georgia. stacy abrams is a black woman and i was her deputy campaign manager. when it comes down to, that woman announced, she has been -- it's been sort of a smear campaign against her by some of the powers that be in the state of georgia. this is all to discredit an african-american woman. blamed for colluding with protesters, colluding with jason johnson, the senior editor for root political and also, also they actually blamed me for being a russian contributor, because i showed up on a station that actually a democratic presidential candidate was on owned by a russian company. this is not about russians or jason johnson, this is about one thing. to smear an african-american woman. even more important point. i am more excited about the --

primary in may than the black panther release next month. why? the democratic primary in georgia is almost 70% african-american with two-thirds of those people being african-american women. who do you think they're go with when it comes down to the point of numbers? go nuclear against stacy abrams for her to lose the primary. >> and a very important governor's race in virginia, in new jersey. these are important milestones on democrats able to show that they're able to win elections in these off years when typically democrat constituencies recede. yet you have, i don't know, in-fighting. show you, chris jansing, great colleague here at msnbc, and nbc news, she did a roundtable with democratic voters, in racine, wisconsin this month. let me play a little of that. >> show of hands. how many of you think that democratic establishment is doing a good job right now? one tentative, and -- how many

of you think that democrats could blow a real opportunity in 2018? >> i do. >> absolutely. >> all five -- >> jimmy, what's going on? >> oh -- well -- you don't have much of a message, and i'm a democrat. then you can't really talk to people. look, can we just focus on this thing, go back to this thing about the dnc? go up 30,000 feet. two men of color run the dnc. and there was an effort to purge three women of color from the dnc. at what level was that smart? i mean, that's the kind of thing where i just, as a progressive southern gay male, when a slam my ed up against the wall and say, who thought of that? thought it was a good idea? it doesn't matter. what matters, if we sit around and fight each other the crazies on the right will win and by the way, they did win in 2016, because of the in-fighting. i was asking folks this morning. people that have been narnd

politics as long as i have. some even longer. i said, is this nothing more than just a rehashing of 2016? of the bernie versus hillary thing? they all said, no. i think it is. i think the fact of the ma thor i matter is the left of the left is pissed they didn't get their candidate. you don't win you don't get to name the people. you don't win, your ideas didn't win. last time i checked, hillary clinton won the nomination. she did not win the white house. if we would like to win in 2018 and would like to win in 2020, i would suggest democrats stop this inane in-fighting and learn it doesn't matter who's most progressive, it matters that we win. it's so dumb. >> go to a pollster. call a pollster. 1-800 call a pollster. call you on this one. the thing that's confounding, democrats are winning handedly

in the generic ballot. this is the most recent -- a fox news poll. you know, in a fox news poll democratic candidate, who do you want to control congress? 50-35 they're winning. on paper democrats are doing really well. but when you go down and actually talk to democrats about the party, people are very dissatisfied and angry. what do you think is going on? >> i think it's fair criticism now that the democratic party really doesn't have much of a message. there's a lot of these little things. if they're asking, i've got a message for them. here's a quick one. the house impeaches and senate convicts. a lot of the attention in the world now is focused on getting the donald trump presidency over with. the cancer that he represents. you know, joy, we've seen these periods before in recent american history. i'm old enough to remember 1989. a period where democrats were supposedly in the wilderness. never capture the white house again. three years later bill clinton a two-term president, same phenomenon takes place in 2005. another wilderness period where

democrats win actually the congress a year later and eight years of barack obama. if i could play off of a line i saw david korn speak to you last night talking about the mueller investigation. saying indictments have a way of focusing the mind. i think impending elections have a way of unifying political parties, and i have little doubt that a lot of these internal squirmi isishes legitimate and now, will dissolve. next year in 2018 i think you'll see a presidential-level-type turnout. >> i wish we had more time. twice the tile. come back with us again. thank you all. we'll have you back. up next, trump's holy grail. tax cut. is the devil in the details? (vo) more "doing chores for mom" per roll more "doing chores for dad" per roll

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thursday mornings it's yoga mornings for me. so i've got to get going to yoga and that really helps me get through the day. i don't want you to steal my mantra, but my mantra in yoga is -- tax reform. tax reform. tax reform. uh-huh. paul ryan and the republican party are bernding over backwards to achieve -- tax reform. they came one step closer thursday particular when the house narrowly passed the budget meaning the senate needs a filibuster simple majority to pass tax cuts for the rich. republicans could introduce a bill as soon as next week. details are hard to come by. regardless, most americans already know who stands to gain. 60% say help the wealthy. 69% say helping large corporations. joining me, stephanie ruhle and

former dnc chair howard dean. great panel. steph, coming right to you on this. it does seem paul ryan's whole life has been organized around passing deep cuts for the wealthy. he's about to do it, maybe. >> it's tax cuts, not reform. if there were tax reform, there would be something to talk about. when they talk about cutting the corporate tax rate, it's clear, corporations have a high statutory rate, but they don't pay that at the end of the day. if you lower it and get rid of the loopholes, it may affect consumers. you're not getting rid of the loophol loopholes. you're lowering the rate, the loopholes exist, and they'll pay even less. this isn't going to help america. >> how could it be that 401 ks and limiting the amount that ordinary people can put in their accounts is on the table?

>> it's on the table, but this could be a first dance. currently you can put 18,000 in. they're saying 2400. maybe the answer is somewhere in the middle. it's stunning it's even up. my mom and dad, that is their retirement plan. when you actually look at nuts and poets, getting rid of the estate plans and corporate tax reform, the thing that's stunning is anything for middle income people is trickle down hope. no hard benefit. when sarah huckabee sanders says americans are going to get 4,000 to $9,000, don't you want that, show me in writing where they've going to get it. they're not. it's an assumption. >> if i have 10 people and give one person $1,000 and nine people $0, you can pretend that's the average, but it's not. most people don't get a pension anymore. it's rare for anyone to have that kind of a guaranteed retirement. if on top of that we're putting

on the table trillions of dollars when you add it up or hundreds of billions of dollars of cuts to medicare, medicaid, perhaps limiting 401ks, i don't understand how there's not a middle class uprising act this tax reform. >> you saw 20 republicans in the house vote against this. this is going to cost the republicans an enormous number of seats. probably six or seven in california. a couple in new york. these are high tax states. what the right wing nut jobs, this is not tax reform. this is just craziness. this is adding $1.5 trillion to the deficit at minimum, and that's only if they cut a trillion dollars out of old people's health care. these people are nuts that are trying to do this stuff. they believe their own crazy stuff, and it's not going to work, and it's going to cost the republicans a lot of seats and the republicans know it. >> take the nut jobs out. bring the lobbyists in. that's who's rocking up to d.c. think about all the lobbying

efforts that are going to break down on the republican party. they're not going to be able to simply say -- for example, the asset management business, when they lose trillions of dollars because of a 401k, they don't want to lieu those lobbying dollars. >> it's hard to believe they'll find a constituency to pass its. the senate budget plan cuts to the affordable care act subsidies and medicaid $1.3 trillion. and to your point, howard dean, it's not $1.5 trillion. it's 2 .2 to $2.7 trillion. when did the republican stop caring act the deficits? >> they've never cared about the deficits. republicans have never cared about deficits. they just care about getting their friend's tax cuts. >> it is sort of -- it's become a situation --

>> okay, hold on a second. we can't just say they just care about giving their friends tax cuts. >> they're willing to excuse a lot from donald trump. they're willing to look aside as long as they pass the tax cuts. paul ryan said he -- >> these are nut jobs who just want to hook up their friends. that's not the case. >> then what is behind this? when you elect a republican, you get deep tax cuts for the wealthy. >> they have a deep belief that trickle economics works. here's the thicng, it doesn't. >> howard dean. >> they tried it twice and it hasn't worked. >> why is it it's so difficult for democrats to win on the issue on taxes? people seem to believe the republicans still. >> i think it's because the democrats have not very good messaging and the republicans have extraordinary -- the republicans really are at least

as good as their communists were in russia on messaging. they are incredibly good. they say outrageous things. they have their own television station in fox. there's no examination of the truth. they keep repeating this stuff. i don't believe most working class people in this country think the republicans are telling the truth anymore. and the poll numbers that joy talked about early on show that. >> and at the same time the sort of drain the swamp question, i mean, not to derail our subject here, but you have nings happening like the whitefish situation. you have clearly ryan zinke's hometown company where his son used to work, gets a major rebuild contract in puerto rico. it happened and no one -- >> ryan zinke has said leave it to washington d.c. to have a problem with us being from the same hometown. i'm from jersey, and in jersey we're familiar with paybacks and we know what a stinky fish

smells like. a $300 million contract to this company. they only got a go daddy website in mid october and for them to say this is about entrepreneurial spirit and we were the only ones who went down to puerto rico and offered a no strings attached deal, that's a flat out lie because other agencies absolutely did. >> and when it's this cartoonishly obvious, why is it difficult to message against these people? >> partly because we don't have a central message, and also, in fairness to the democratic party, it's very hard to have a message when you're not in power, and we're not really going to get one until we have a candidate who is for president of the united states which is okay, because we're going to win in 2018 because the president trump brand is so awful, and the republican brand is really awful too. this white fish stuff has real legs. the average person who we're

trying to reach and having been successful looks at this and smells corruption. it is corruption. trump is probably -- >> scott pruitt's home state of oklahoma that specializes in fracking and drilling, not rebuilding an electrical grid got a $200 million contract. >> a lot of swamp not getting drained. that is our show for today. a.m. joy will be back tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. eastern. keep it right here on msnbc. what started as a passion...

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