you know his jokes are okay. kevin, congressman, and eugene scott, thank you all. that's the show. "hardball" is up next. bad memories. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews back in philadelphia. denial is not just a river in egypt. it's the strategy of donald trump and jeff sessions on russia. >> can you say whether you are aware that anyone who advised your campaign had contacts with russia during the course of the election? >> well, i told you general flynn obviously was dealing, so that's one person. but he was dealing as he should have been -- >> during the election? >> no, nobody that i know of. i have nothing to do with russia. to the best of my knowledge, no person that i deal with does.

>> you don't believe that surrogates from the trump campaign had communications with the russians. is that what you're saying? >> i did not, and i'm not aware of anyone else that did. >> now information this week is showing serious differences with president trump's and jeff sessions' accounts. first came court documents in the case of former trump campaign advise over george papadopoulos. they describe a march 31st meeting last year with trump and his foreign policy team. quote, when defendant papadopoulos introduced himself to the group, he stated in sum and substance that he had connections that could help arrange a meeting between then candidate trump and president putin. here's a photograph by the way from that meeting showing papadopoulos sitting prominently at that table with donald trump and jeff sessions. also at that same meeting, j.d. gordon, another campaign adviser. he's the one sitting right next to papadopoulos. he told "the new york times" papadopoulos went into the pitch right away. he said he had a friend in london, a russian ambassador, who could help set up a meeting

with putin. according to the times, mr. trump listened with interest. mr. sessions vehemently opposed the idea, mr. gordon recalled, and he said that no one should talk about it because mr. sessions thought it was a bad idea that he did not want associated with the campaign, he said. well, gordon confirmed the account to nbc news. meanwhile yesterday, a person described as being familiar with sessions' views told nbc news, as far as sessions seemed to be concerned when he shut down this idea, papadopoulos engaging with russia, that was the end of it, and he moved the meeting along to other issues. well, leaving the white house this morning for a 12-day trip to asia, the president was asked about that meeting in march of last year. let's watch. >> mr. president, do you remember george papadopoulos during that march meeting -- >> i don't remember much about that meeting. it was a very unimportant meeting. it took place a long time -- don't remember much about it. >> do you stand by your claim that the campaign never talked to anybody from russia?

do you stand by that claim? >> all i can tell you is this. there was no collusion. there was no nothing. it's a disgrace frankly that they continue. you ought to look at hillary clinton, and you ought to look at the new book that was just put out by dan that braz he'll where she basically bought the dnc and stole the election from bernie. that's what you ought to take a look at. >> i'm joined by "the new york times" matt apew sew, carol lee, and former u.s. attorney joyce vance. let's start with matt. it seems to me now we have an accumulation of at least three people now. we've got papadopoulos. we've got somebody close to sessions himself. and we've got this guy jordan, j.d. gordon. they all said they discussed russia at that meeting and trump said he doesn't remember -- it's like i don't know much about hi history in the song. can he get away with this legally and politically, i don't remember? >> legally this issue is much more significant for the

attorney general jeff sessions because of course when he talked about this, he was under oath. he was talking to senator al franken of the judiciary committee. i mean donald trump can say, well, look, i said it in february. i don't remember. i don't have any recollection of this. i think we've seen again and again from people around trump and from people in the campaign that they say no russian contacts and then reporters go out and find russian contacts. i mean whether he can get away with it, that's a political question. legally this is much more serious for jeff sessions. >> democrats are of course demanding jeff sessions come back and testify under oath. here was senator al franken on "hardball" just last night. let's watch him. >> he has contradicted himself so many times in the last -- since january that it really is hard to believe that he's been telling the truth at any one point. >> carol, thanks for coming on. tell me how the attorney general, who knows the law -- he

has that slow way of talking and always seems hesitant to say anything. how is he wrangling his way through this because he's apparently put out the word, ya, he was at the meeting and, yeah, he shot down further conversations with russia. but in so doing, saying, yes, i knew there was contact with russia. how is he doing this thing? >> well, what their argument is he shut it down and that was the end of it, and it was insignificant. but attorney general sessions has a problem here because of all those clips that show him testifying on the hill and saying one thing and then other -- whether it's documentation or other people's versions of things that happened during the campaign coming out and contradicting that. and i think the real problem for him right now is that you don't know what's out there that hasn't come out yet. and he's really boxed himself in on this. this is just the beginning of what robert mueller is going to reveal in this investigation. the problem for jeff sessions is

was he involved in any of these other discussions about contacts with russian officials? you know, george papadopoulos also had contacts where he was promised dirt on hillary clinton. did jeff sessions know about that? robert mueller knows a lot, and so the senator -- or attorney general, jeff sessions, has more to answer to than just these calls on the hill for him to come back and testify. he could potentially be in his own legal jeopardy. >> back in watergate days, this he had a phrase limited modified hangout where they could go from stonewalling to admitting something. here you have the attorney general getting word out that, okay, i was at the meeting, but i was there shooting down the idea. so he's admitting now he wasn't fully honest in his past statements when saying there was no contact with russia, but he's also trying to deny he went along with it by saying, yes, i was there when it was discussed but i shot the idea down. legally, how does this protect him? why would he shift to i don't know nothing to, yeah, i was

there but i shot down the idea? >> he's had to progressively walk back his statements here, which is very interesting. but, chris, the standard for proving a perjury charge, which is what we would be talking about here, is a very stringent one, and the burden is very heavily on the questioner. so what prosecutors will focus on here will be the precise question and the precise answer in light of what they can prove attorney general sessions knew at the time. one would think that this dance of excuses or this dance of language would have something to do with that calculus of what the exact question was and what his answer was. it's interesting to note, though, that in addition to legal jeopardy to potential criminal prosecution, there's also a strict standard inside of the justice department for candor to the court or candor to the tribunal. if this were a prosecutor in open court who made a comment like this, they would likely face some sort of internal

investigation. no word yet on whether that's in the winds for sessions. >> well, the president's lawyer, ty cobb, told "the new york times" the media's willingness to inflate papadopoulos, a young unpaid volunteer and supposed energy expert into an important thought leader in the campaign or russian operative is ludicrous. the evidence so far suggests he attended one meeting, said something about russia, was immediately shut down by everyone in the room. well, it's not the media that elevated it. it's donald trump himself. in march of 2016, trump led off a list of people on his foreign policy team. his team identified by him. let's listen. >> walid phares, who you probably know, ph.d. adviser to the house of representatives caucus, and is a counterterrorism expert. carter page, ph.d. george papadopoulos. he's an oil and energy consultant. excellent guy. >> matt, rolling disclosures at

work here. in fact, some of it seems to be retrenching. all of a sudden, he's a nobody. >> right. what you see here is the papadopoulos case in general can be dismissed by the white house and say, look, this guy is a nothing. this guy is a nobody. and, you know, they can even make the political truth, the admission, that this task force, this consulting committee, this advisory committee was all just for show at a time when we were getting criticized for not knowing anything about foreign policy. the problem is they keep saying things that then get undercut. that's the problem they have. nobody met with russians. then we find out, oh, they did. i didn't know anything about it. well, actually i was in a meeting about it. that's ultimately the problem here. for donald trump, it's not what hand pleaded guilty to. it's just that it makes us question even again how honest theme the president is being. >> do you know, carol, as a

reporter any hint at least that they can go further? it's been said just a few minutes ago that robert mueller knows more. now, does he know more that you know of? does he know more about the entanglement, the collusion, between this team we're walking through here and watching in action over time and the russians? >> well, he definitely knows more than any of us do and any of what has been reported. and he definitely has a much stronger indication than any of us about whether or not there was this collusion. that's what he's investigating. and the thing that's going to happen is in the next coming days and weeks, all of that stuff is going to be rolled. what we saw this past week is just the tip of the iceberg. >> so you see the vector here. you see the direction he's going as the beginning of something bigger, not just cleaning up the little bit of information they have but beginning to chew away at the larger block of information coming? >> sure. definitely. if you look at the way that what

we know about this investigation, you can see a very methodical and cal cue lated investigation. he's moving pretty quickly but also very methodically and carefully. this, you know, is just -- i think all of us who have covered this believe this is just the beginning. also we know he's looking into a number of other individuals including the president's former national security adviser michael flynn, his son -- michael flynn's son. he's looking at meetings that the president's son and son-in-law have had. so it's just going to keep going, and more is going to come out. and that's where these -- the president, his attorney general, and others are going to be faced with these questions again and holding up their past comments on what they said happened during the campaign. >> i know three people, all men, who may well agree with what you said. those are the three republican congress people who are out there with a resolution right now to take mueller's job away. we'll see more about that by

next week. anyway they've introduced a measure calling on robert mueller to resign. quote, be it resolved that the house of representatives expresses its sense that robert mueller is compromised and should resign from his special counsel position immediately. joyce, last word to you. does that indicate to you they think he's got some pay dirt? they want him out of the job? >> people who have nothing to fear from a criminal investigation open their books, go m and talk with prosecutors, and are honest and forthcoming. people who call for a prosecutor to be forbidden from doing his job, those are folk who's are worried about the outcome. >> sounds right to me. thank you. coming up, donald trump says he's frustrated that he can't make the united states department of justice go after hillary clinton. he actually called it the saddest thing, that he can't be involved in justice department decision-making. he also said we shouldn't worry about all the vacancies at the state department because he's, quote, the only one that matters. he's talking about himself.

if you were worried trump is becoming an autocrat, this won't help. plus that crucial race for governor of virginia is down to the wire. the democrats are hanging on for dear life. this is going to be a close one. and speaking of the democrats, the party's differences are on full display after the great donna brazile shed light on the fund-raising deal hillary clinton cut with the democratic national committee long before she won the nomination. and that is not cricket. that's causing supporters of bernie sanders to cry foul loud. finally let me finish tonight with the answer to the number one question i've been asked this week. this is "hardball," where the action is. ♪ everyone deserves attention, whether you've saved a lot or just a little. at pnc investments, we believe you're more than just a number.

so we provide personal financial advice for every retirement investor. despite a deepening investigation into russian meddling in the 2016 election, talks are under way to set up another meeting between president trump and russian president vladimir putin. the kremlin today confirmed that details are being coordinated to have the two world leaders meet

on the sidelines of an economic summit in vietnam next week. in an interview last night on fox news, president trump seemed very open to the idea. >> you're going to talk to him on this trip? >> we may have a meeting with putin. again, putin is very important because they can help us with north korea. >> syria. >> they can help us with syria. we have to talk about ukraine. >> we'll be right back. iptions, switch to walgreens. we make it easy to seize the day, so you can get more out of life and medicare part d. just walk right in for savings that will be the highlight of your day. walgreens has $0 copays on select plans and 100 points on prescriptions. so, swing by and save today. walgreens, at the corner of happy & healthy. ththe next energyngs toto power our dreams,re will be american energy.

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welcome back to "hardball." president trump's remarks over the last 24 hours reveal that he doesn't believe the powers of the presidency are as vast as he would like. he now says he wishes he could direct the department of justice to go after his political enemies. in a radio interview just yesterday, trump said that the saddest thing about being president is not being able to direct the actions of the fbi and the justice department, which they act independently of the white house. let's listen to him. >> you know, the saddest thing

is that because i'm the president of the united states, i am not supposed to be involved with the justice department. i'm not supposed to be involved with the fbi. i'm not supposed to be doing the kind of things that i would love to be doing, and i'm very frustrated by it. i look at what's happening with the justice department. why aren't they going after hillary clinton with her e-mails and with her -- the dossier? it's very discouraging to me. i'll be honest, i'm very unhappy with it, that the justice department isn't going. now, maybe they are. but hopefully they are doing something, and at some point maybe we're going to all have it out. >> well, president trump also took a jab at the military over the decision today in the bowe bergdahl case which allow the sergeant bergdahl, who pleaded guilty to desertion, to avoid jail time. quite, the decision on sergeant bergdahl is a complete and total disgrace to our country and to our military. this comes after the military judge in that case had already said that the president's ongoing comments will weigh in favor of a lighter sentence for

the sergeant. i'm joined now by jonathan capehart, opinion writer at "the washington post" and an season political analyst. and saul wizenberg, a former federal prosecutor. jonathan, just the overall look as a fellow generalist like i. the idea of a president of the united states wishing that he had the fbi as his personal weapon. >> it's pretty incredible. look, this is a country that's based on the rule of law and even the customs and traditions of the president not involving himself with the internal machinations, particularly an investigation at the justice department. to whittle away at that is to really whittle away at the foundation of our democracy. just think about a year ago, chris, when everyone's hair was on fire because president clinton -- former president clinton boarded the plane of then attorney general loretta lynch and the amplycatiimplicat

had for hillary clinton and her campaign going forward and how donald trump used that as a way of whittling away at hillary clinton's credibility and, you know, her using power to benefit herself. so now we have the president -- the current president of the united states saying that he wishes he could wield power and doing so in a way, you know, that makes him a victim. and listening to the clip that you just played, i just kept saying, oh, boo-hoo, power is hard. when you're president of the united states, you're very powerful, but there are limits on that power for good reason. >> you know, one great thing about being a columnist like you is you see references and parallels, and you see inconsistencies and connections because your mind is working that way, always to relate one thing to another. does trump just not see this continual contradiction in his whole narrative, that he will say one thing one day as if that day was on some other planet from this country and this world, and then another one in a

totally other universe. then there's another universe the next day. and nothing relates to anything. he can say anything, and his 40% will say yep. >> absolutely, chris. here's a perfect example of what you were just talking about. today before he got on marine one, he said, oh, i don't remember having these conversations related to russia when just last week he said in relation to the widow johnson, the gold star widow of la david johnson, the green beret who was killed in niger, he said, i have the greatest memory of all time, and i remember what happened in that phone conversation. so that's just one example, chris, of many examples of the president saying one thing at 9:00 a.m. and then contradicting himself maybe in a tweet or an offhand comment two hours later or even a day later. >> saul wizenberg, i just saw that film about the guy who was

the deep throat in the watergate story. one thing that came through was the institutional pride of the fbi, especially under hoover. they said no white house has any right to tell us what to do. in fact, they had john dean before he went -- you know, he went with the prosecution. john dean was over there telling them what to do, and the acting fbi director was going nuts. what is he doing here? tell us about that institutional independence, especially of the fbi, and no president should have any right to tell them what to do. >> well, the irony here, chris, is that technically speaking the president does have the ability to tell him what to do. he's the chief officer of the executive branch. the president doesn't even realize his own power. the question is, is it proper? is it consistent with our institutional norms? and of court it isn't. it's totally proper if he's president of russia. it's totally proper if he's the

president of free don't donia, s not proper here. but it's not always easy to explain to people who don't understand why it isn't proper. as a matter of pure, raw power, he does control the justice department and the fbi, and certainly as you know, presidents have policies all the time. they get elected, and they say i want to have this immigration policy. i want to have this drug policy, and that's one thing. but they typically don't call up the attorney general and say, investigate my political opponent. that happens in banana republics. >> well, let's talk about what happened with nixon, not that the parallel is ever perfect. but here's a guy that wanted to get rid of archibald cox, who was investigating him and demanding tapes that would knock him out of the presidency eventually. he had to fire a whole line of people at the justice department starting with the attorney general and then down the line to bork to get somebody to do it. is that what you mean by technical or constitutional power as opposed to

appropriateness? >> well, that's exactly what i meant. in the case of archie cox, ruckles house and richardson had made promises to congress when they were confirmed that they would protect archibald cox's independence. i can tell you this. absolutely if the president asked rod rosenstein to do anything that rosenstein believes is improper, including firing mueller without good reason, he will resign before doing so. and that was the subtext of rod's speech a couple of nights ago to the dc white collar bar. >> president trump also attacked the state department in another revealing interview last night. he argued that the vacancies -- and there are so many of them inside the department -- are not significant because, as he said last night, quote, the only one that matters is me. he actually said that. take a look. >> i'm a business person. i tell me people where you don't need to fill slots, don't fill them. but we have some people i'm not happy with there.

>> the assistant secretary of state, you're not getting rid of that position? >> let me tell you, the one that matters is me. i'm the only one that matters because when it comes to it, that's what the policy is going to be. >> you know it gets back to something, i don't think the guy studied liberal arts in school. he just didn't business. he doesn't understand he has a trust as president, but it's not his acquisition. it's government of the people, by the people, for the people. it always will be. that's the ideal. that's the reality of our constitution. he acts as if it's his possession and he can move it around the way he wants, according to his personal id. whatever he feels like doing at 6:30 in the morning should happen. >> right. look, chris, the sound bite that we heard there should not come as a surprise to anybody who has been watching donald trump since he was a candidate, and certainly since his convention acceptance speech where he said, i am your voice to his supporters. but he also said, in relation to the problems of the country, i

alone can fix it. and so for him to say that it doesn't matter that the state department is decimated and that the halls are empty, and that he's knee-capping his secretary of state with every comment because, you know, whatever the policy is of the united states, it's going to come from him anyway, so why do we need all of these people? and it just betrays a total lack of understanding or appreciate agsz for the enterprise that is the united states government. >> here's my bet when he meets with putin next week. he's not going to let tillerson in the room. that's my bet. anyway, thank you, jonathan capehart and saul wizenberg. up next, with just days to go in the virginia governor's race, can the democrats eke out a win? this one is getting close. this is "hardball," where the action is. paying less for my medicare? i'm open to that. lower premiums? extra benefits? it's open enrollment. time to open the laptop... ...and compare medicare health plans.

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i'm page hopkins. president trump has just landed in hawaii at the start of a 12-day, five-country trip to asia. the new york city police department says it has a credible rape allegation against harvey weinstein and is gathering evidence ahead of a possible arrest. the trump administration has released an ominous report on climate change. it contradicts top trump officials and places the blame for rising global temperatures squarely on human activity. now let's take you back to "hardball."

welcome back to "hardball." the critical election for virginia governor is down to the wire with just one weekend left before voters head to the polls. democrat ralph northam and republican ed gillespie are making their final pitch. >> in washington, we have a president who is dividing america in a way we've never seen before. here in virginia we can do better. as governor, i'll move virginia forward by bringing people together. >> ralph northam doesn't just disagree with million of virginians who don't share his liberal policy agenda. he disdains us. it's an attack on all virginians. >> two polls out this week show the race is neck to neck. a "washington post" poll has northam with a five-point advantage over gillespie, while suffolk university gives northam only a four-point edge. the election will come down to which side gets its turnout. "the washington post" also notes that for the democrat ralph northam, victory may hinge on black voters.

for more i'm joined by the mayor of richmond. thank you so much. virginia beach may have edged you out there. tell me about the excitement level in the city of richmond tonight? >> with four days left, democrats are ready to turn out. when you have a president in the white house right now who is dissing president obama on a daily basis and unwinding and undoing all of president obama's work, i think folks know that the stakes are way too high. every single day you see an image on tv that we wish we had november 2016 back, but we get an opportunity to let our voices be heard in this upcoming tuesday. >> what do you make of ed gillespie, the republican candidate for governor getting caught on a tape saying something about northern virginia being enemy territory? >> well, you know, should not be

surprising to anyone because this is the sort of divisive campaign that mr. gillespie has run the entire time he's been running for governor. he's run a slash and burn campaign. we should not be surprised by this. we have on one hand lieutenant governor rath northam who has been a public servant most of his life, from the time he worked in the army as an army doctor to his time as a pediatrician. and we have held him up to ed gillespie who has been self-serving through most of his career. >> virginia's former governor, the first african-american elected to that office, he has not endorsed the democratic candidate. meanwhile a book by donna brazile has opened up a rift in the democratic part. it alleges that hillary clinton's campaign controlled the democratic national committee before she locked up the nomination. my colleague, katy tur asked

northam about that today. let's watch her with him. >> are you concerned that you could be the first potential victim of that rift after this book? >> no, katy. like i said, we're unified in virginia. we're focused on this election -- >> you say you're unified but at the same time, doug wilder isn't endorsing you. there's some division within virginia. are you really that confident? >> i am confident. you know, doug wilder is a good friend of mine. he was a great governor. >> so why is he not endorsing you? >> well, that's up to governor wilder, and he'll make that decision at the appropriate time. >> your honor, why do you think the former governor is not endorsing the gubernatorial candidate of his party? >> governor wilder has been a lieutenant governor, and he also has been a governor as well. he understands the value of these down ballot races. justin fairfax, who i think will win the lieutenant governorship here in a few days. i've worked in campaigns. i've ran campaigns.

i used to run the democratic party of virginia. now i'm the mayor. i've been a candidate before as well. these statewide campaigns, there's a drop off from the governor's race to the lieutenant governor's race, to the a.g.'s race. every vote counts. all hands on deck. i'm glad to see that governor wilder is on deck. >> the name of this show, mayor, is called "hardball." remember that? here's the "hardball" question for friday night. you're not getting away because i'm going to respect you for this one. where are you because i'm kind of troubled by this whole debate. where are you on the statues of confederate generals in virginia? what do you think should happen to them? >> hey, i've already publicly said that personally, i believe that they are shameful reminders of our past, and they should be removed and maybe put up in museums. but, you know, what i focus on as the mayor every single day is on the living, the blood and flesh of our city, and not on granite and bronze. and all day i see people who

seek to divide us, who want to focus on inanimate objects. let me see your plan on expanding voting rights and civil rights. let me see your plan on expanding medicaid expansion in virginia. let me see your plan on tearing down public housing in virginia. i've not seen anything like that from the republican party, who uses these inanimate objects, statues, as a way to divide our commonwealth. if you want someone who is going to bring people together, who is going to provide opportunity for all, you vote for ralph northam on november 6th. >> i like your politics, and i like your political ability. that's called the pivot by the way, mr. mayor, what you just did. thank you for that. you pivoted to an area you want to talk about, not the one you don't want to talk about. thank you, mayor, of the great city of richmond, virginia. i'll be here on "hardball" that night. when the polls close, we're not going to get the answer, so we're going to come back at midnight on election night.

i'll be back with special coverage for the biggest election in the country tuesday night. up next, the new book exposing old wounds in the democratic party. you're watching "hardball." dad: molly, can you please take out the trash? (sigh) ( ♪ ) dad: molly! trash! ( ♪ ) whoo! ( ♪ ) mom: hey, molly? it's time to go! (bell ringing) class, let's turn to page 136,

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welcome back to "hardball." in an explosive excerpt from her new book, donna brazile yesterday revealed the existence of a previously secret agreement that seemed to confirm some of bernie sanders' supporters fears, that the dnc was playing favorites. brazile writes, the agreement specified that in exchange for raising money and investing in the dnc, hillary would control the party's finances, its strategy, and all the money raised. for more i'm joined by the "hardball" roundtable tonight, jennifer rubin, sam stein, and

yamiche alcindor. i want to talk about the democratic politics first of all. is this going to give people within the ranks, the bernie crowd, the chance to say, we were right, we were robbed? >> it already has. it's not just the bernie crowd. elizabeth warren, who did endorse hillary, had a prime-time speaking spot at the convention, was on the campaign trail, said yesterday that the process was rigged against bernie. you know, the bernie people have rightful grievances. though these fund-raising agreements were available to the sanders campaign, that's an important distinction, the fact of the matter is they forfeited essentially operational control to the clinton campaign, and the date of that memo is most important. it was 2015. they do have a rightful grievance that there was a tilt -- a weight on the scale in clinton's favor, and this

perpetual civil war that the democrats seem to be engaged in looks like it won't be ending anytime soon. >> it looks to me like it's going to open up for 2018 and big time for 2020. this is going to give them a bloody shirt to wave as they said after the civil war. >> i think donna brazile is making a calculation here that the future is with bernie sanders. donna brazile is someone who had 4er own issues because people thought she was being partial to hillary clinton and was sending her questions before the debates. now you have donna brazile coming out and throwing dirt essentially on hillary clinton's coffin here by saying she was allowed to take over the dnc. the problem with that in some cases is that like was said before, bernie had the opportunity to do this. he could have been in his own joint agreement, but he didn't want to use it. but also that he wasn't a member of the party and as of today still does not want to be a democrat. so there's this idea that democrats are fighting over someone who wants to remain an independent. >> let me go to jennifer on this

because it seems like the outside people, the people on the conservative side of things, including the republican president -- he's our president too, but he's the republican leader of the party -- sees this as a great wedge opportunity. >> i suppose it is. listen, he is the master of misdirection, and when subpoenas are coming and indictments are coming and plea bargains are coming, what does he do? he goes to attack hillary clinton. of course it's all irrelevant from his standpoint. the democratic could have nominated anyone they wanted by any rules. but, listen, for those people who are disenchanted for the republicans, when they look over the democrats and see this fighting, they say, are these people ever going to get their act together? >> well, let me just suggest there's some brains behind trump, even though he usually operates tfrom id and instinct. could it be that he wants a bernie type to run against him 2020 thinking the middle might shift back to him?

if he can make the democratic party the british labor party, for example, in effect, the corbin party, he's got at least a chance of getting reelected. >> i think that's right although if you talk to some trump associates and people who worked on his campaign, they genuinely and sincerely do believe that bernie would have presented a much more complicated and difficult opponent than hillary did. it's precisely in those rust belt states where his message would have resonated. tony fa reezio recently said he believed bernie would have won if he had been the candidate. >> you buy that? >> here's what i think. >> what do you think? we might as well ask everybody what they think. >> i think for me as someone who covered both bernie sanders and donald trump, i remember literally being on the phone with bernie sanders and telling him that he had won wisconsmich.

he was as surprised as i was. i remember him coming, getting together and holding this press conference. he literally had no idea he had won michigan, and he was surprised as ever. i think that tells me there were people who saw in bernie sanders somewhat of a rock star, speaking to working class people and saying i care about you in a way they didn't see in hillary clinton. >> michigan once votes in a primary for george wallace. it's true. jennifer, what do you make of this pocahontas line? is it work something i know ing? does it work for a president to make fun of a u.s. senator, a woman who is obviously distinguished, certainly in her expertise, which is wall street, to make fun of her personally like that in almost a disdainful way? >> listen, i don't think anybody is undecided on donald trump at this point. you either like him, and you think is all hysterical and part of the game, or you think he's a racist pig and really -- >> yeah. a lot of territory there. >> listen, is he changing any

minds? no. but i think he does go back to the well on these things when things are not going well. he has to have an enemy, and preferably, either a minority or a woman. this is what he does. this is what gets him up in the morning. this gets his troops lined up. >> he also likes to make the people he opposes toxic to their own people. one of the ways he won was not by bringing himself up but by bringing hillary clinton down and she certainly helped in the matter. >> i think it's memorable -- go ahead. >> i think it's memorable when he gives people nicknames, right? even if it seems childish, you can remember who low energy was. you can rb who lyin' ted was. those are things from a marketing perspective are in his favor. >> we've got to go. you know what i've learned lately, politics is not a seesaw. just because one person goes down, the other doesn't go up. the democratic party is not doing great in the polls right

now. the roundtable is staying with us. up next, some scoops we'll be talking about all weekend. this is "hardball," where the action is. or no sugar at all, smaller portion sizes, clear calorie labels, and signs reminding everyone to think balance before choosing their beverages. we know you care about reducing the sugar in your family's diet, and we're working to support your efforts. more beverage choices. smaller portions. less sugar. balanceus.org.

we're back with the "hardball" roundtable. jennifer, tell me something i don't know. >> a little nugget in the tax bill. taking away the deduction for medical expenses over 10%. this is for people in nursing homes at the end of life. trump is taking that away. about six times as much is being

given back to people to get rid of the amt. he's taking money from old grandma, who is at the end of her life, and giving it to ivanka trump essentially. >> what a bedside manner that man has. >> i did not know that. a little bit of a nulg net our own reporting. george papadopoulos. how did he get on the trump campaign? not many people know including his college professor, who said he was a terrible student and was shocked to find out that he was a trump aide. >> probably good in russian. yamiche? >> there are several female lawmaker who's are out saying that they were actually sexually harassed by their colleagues. this is not just staff members saying that members of the congress are taking advantage of them, but these are actually people who are peers of other men saying that there are people saying that they were thinking about them in the shower and basically inappropriately touching them. so this i think is an interesting chapter. >> interesting is a good word. jennifer rubin, thank you.

sam stein, and ya she ma, alcindor. up next, my new book, bobby kennedy. you're watching "hardball." (avo) and for people with type 2 diabetes treating cardiovascular disease, victoza® is now approved to lower the risk of major cardiovascular events such as heart attack, stroke, or death. and while it isn't for weight loss, victoza® may help you lose some weight. (avo) victoza® is not for people with type 1 diabetes or diabetic ketoacidosis. do not take victoza® if you have a personal or family history of medullary thyroid cancer, multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if you are allergic to victoza® or any of its ingredients. stop taking victoza® and get medical help right away if you get symptoms of a serious allergic reaction such as rash,

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will be american energy. through all these months of nasty political tweets, cynicism and social division, i believe america can benefit from a revival of our spirit. i believe we need a tonic of the heart. compelling evidence that our country yearns still for leaders who can inspire, unite, offer moral leadership. men and women who believe a great country needs to be a good country. i spent a week doing just that, debuting "bobby kennedy, a raging spirit." >> i had asked mr. matthews to come in tonight to talk about his new book on bobby kennedy, which is called "a raging spirit." it comes out tomorrow. it's great. it is beautifully written and i learned lots of stuff, including stuff i felt guilty i didn't

know before reading it. now i have the world's greatest excuse to pin chris down on this huge day in the news as well as his new book. >> aren't you nice, thank you. >> there has not been another politician since june of 1968 that could bring together those two people back to the tracks to salute the same person. >> that's why i wrote the book. i think this will remind a lot of people during this dreary times that america is better than that, than what we have, and it can be again. he spent his whole life chasing bad guys but he said he decided one thing. the villains in this world create their own hell on earth. >> if anything, this book will revive the belief that it's doable. working white and black people can have the same political goals. the reference these people had as a person. >> he won the california primary. >> right. >> would he have won the nomination? >> you're killing me. >> would he have won on election night if he won the nomination? >> we thought he was going to do

it, because it's a dynamic. i think he would have shaken it up. >> i want the contrast of you explaining this. i want you to explain all of jfk on a podcast. >> we've run out of time in this segment. but look up -- just look into it. read this book. but look into jfk, the whole era was so fascinating and what happened in those days. that was just something. so our thanks to chris matthews, members of the audience are getting a copy of the book. "bobby kennedy, a raging spirit." [ cheers and applause ] >> i want these pictures to be america again. a guy that was looking -- reaching out to young kids, minority kids who were exuberant to see him and staying true to working class people, white people. >> it's an incredible book and the timing is perfect and you're perfect -- >> you know why? because trump -- >> because we need it. >> trump doesn't understand unity.

>> we need to think there's another bobby kennedy out there that's going to save us. i need to think it. >> thank you for this book about bobby kennedy. hereto me is the heart-breaking kennedy. this picture, one of the earliest memories of my life was watching that train. and i remember my sister putting her arms around me and point me to the tv and explaining what was happening, who this man was. >> bobby kennedy has my heart and i'm so happy that it's reaching so many others. when we return, let me finish tonight with a question i get asked all the time this week. we'll be right back. david. what's going on? oh hey! ♪

that's it? yeah. ♪ everybody two seconds! ♪ "dear sebastian, after careful consideration of your application, it is with great pleasure that we offer our congratulations on your acceptance..." through the tuition assistance program, every day mcdonald's helps more people go to college. it's part of our commitment to being america's best first job. ♪ accused of obstructing justice to theat the fbinuclear war, and of violating the constitution

by taking money from foreign governments and threatening to shut down news organizations that report the truth. if that isn't a case for impeaching and removing a dangerous president, then what has our government become? i'm tom steyer, and like you, i'm a citizen who knows it's up to us to do something. it's why i'm funding this effort to raise our voices together and demand that elected officials take a stand on impeachment. a republican congress once impeached a president for far less. yet today people in congress and his own administration know that this president is a clear and present danger who's mentally unstable and armed with nuclear weapons. and they do nothing. join us and tell your member of congress that they have a moral responsibility to stop doing what's political and start doing what's right. our country depends on it.

let me finish tonight with the most frequent question asked of me this week. who did bobby kennedy say killed his brother? here he is in march of 1968 just a few months before his own assassination. >> could i just say, and i haven't answered this question before, but there would be nobody that would be more interested in all of these matters as to who was responsible for the death of president kennedy than i would. i have seen all of the matters in the archives. if i became president of the united states, i would not -- i would not reopen the warren commission report. i think i stand by the warren commission report. i've seen everything in the archives. the archives will be available at the appropriate time. >> some have say he couldn't quash his doubts there were others involved. this is what he said, you just heard it. it's also what his surviving

brother, ted, confirmed that bobby believed. that's "hardball" for now. tonight i'll speak at the free library of philadelphia to a sold-out crowd and tomorrow morning i'm on "a.m. joy" and then with alex witt right here on msnbc. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight on "all in" -- >> all i can tell you is this, there was no collusion. you want to look at hillary clinton. >> the president calls for the investigation of his political opponents. >> i am not supposed to be involved with the justice department, and i'm very frustrated by it. >> tonight, the evidence that president donald trump is committing obstruction of justice in plain sight, and tom steyer on his call for impeachment. then -- >> there's no hesitation. one of the great memories of all time. >> one of the great memories suddenly forgets about russia. >> i don't remember much about that meeting. it was a very unimportant meeting. >> the latest on the mueller investigas