and that wraps up this hour of msnbc i'll see you again at noon, but now a.m. joy starts right now. i'm really not involved with the justice department. i'd like to on let it run itself, but honestly, they should be looking at the democrats. they should be looking at podesta and all of that dishonesty. they should be looking at a lot of things and a lot of people are disappointed in the justice department including me. >> good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy." there is nothing more nixsonian

than wanting to take control of the justice department and donald trump expressed frustration with the justice department quite a few times. to reporters before departing on his 12 day asia trip, he complained on local radio, twitter and again on twitter and then a few more times. all because he wants sessions and the doj to stop special counsel bob mueller from investigating him and start focusing on investigating, you guessed it, hillary clinton. lock her up, lock her up. trump's carping and undemocratic zeal to jail his political opponent hasn't stopped the special investigation into russia's involvement in our location and it appears that they are zeroing in on jeff sessions, too. mueller unsealed indictments that revealed that sessions' testimony under oath that he was not aware of any trump campaign surrogates communicating with

russi russians was something other than accurate. and lying to congress under he hoet is oath is a crime. this photo, we know about because donald trump twhooeeted out in march of 2016 as a way of bragging about his national security and foreign policy advisory committee. jeff session was the committee chairman, gordon the committee director and right in the center is george papadopoulous, the then 29-year-old former trump campaign adviser who last month pleaded guilty to lying to the fbi about police efforts to get dirt on hillary clinton from russians. he is the latest person to be officially implicated in what we like to call stupid watergate. and papadopoulous's presence during which he allegedly bragged about his ability to arrange a meeting between trump and vladimir putin seems to be triggering a form of amnesia in trump who once told us having a great memory was a true requisite for becoming a

competent tent president. >> if she can't remember, she can't be president. she doesn't remember anything. no hez tagsz, one of the great memories of all time. were you instructed on how to use -- i can't remember. >> do you remember george papadopoulous during that march meeting? >> i don't remember much when that meeting. it was a very unimportant meeting. took place a long time -- don't remember much about it. >> but he does remember it wasn't important. i have my panel of legal experts with me to unpack it all. thank you all for being here. nick, senator al franken sent a letter to jeff sessions the attorney general on thursday saying the american people deserve a complete and accurate accounting of the facts. please respond in writing to the following questions by friday november 10. and what he wants to know is

whether or not jeff he sessises essentially lied under oath about whether he was aware of russian contacts during the campaign when he sat on the very same committee and chaired the committee that george papadopoulous sat on and i believe carter page was on as well. do you see in this series of questions of jeff sessions the seeds of maybe jeff sessions being fired which of course would open the door to a nonrecused attorney general who could fire bob mueller? >> first of all, i see the seeds ever jeff sessions possibly being indicted for perjury. you've got him lying under oath before the senate committee during his confirmation hearings. and on top of all that, it's not just one thing, it's not just the fact that denied meeting with any russians when he met with kislyak three times, it's not that he just denied having any knowledge about anybody in the campaign having contact with the russians, which we now know he did because of the

papadopoulous plea, and on top of that, we have to also wonder whether or not he's in jeopardy of being indicted for obstruction much juof justice be of coming up with that pretext for donald trump to fire james comey. so he is in big trouble. i don't think he will be answering these questions that senator franken sent him because what he says will be used against him. >> absolutely. and what george papadopoulous pleaded to was essentially lying to on the fbi. he was asked simple pointed questions when his contacts with russian officials, he lied to the fbi, that of course is in and of itself a crime. could you foresee hee he a a si where the fbi that was supervised by the department justice has to interview the attorney general? is there any precedent for that? >> no question we're looking at an interview by mueller's teams and fbi agents of the attorney general. that will happen.

and i'll go a step further we're probably just two to three weeks away from mueller's team actually sitting down with the vice president and the president do these interviews. and there is certainly precedent for this. if you recall back in 2004, the scooter libby investigation, it was fbi inspectors and a special counsel that sat down with the president and the vice president and did extensive questioning. it's very similar. and during that time, vice president cheney's interview by fbi agents lasted about 70 minutes. and during that interview, he said i can't recall 72 times. so we're look at that kind of situation here. and almost an inability to close that collusion gap if people sit there at a high level and tell you i can't recall, i can't recall. you'll have to rely on human sources and cooperators. who are they? papadopoulous, maybe manafort donees, but also mike flynn is a slam dunk criminal charge. he hasn't been charged yet.

why is that? is he couldn't ihe couldn'ting. >> he seems to be the person that makes donald trump the most nervous. all of those stay strong, he drnt wadidn't want to fire him. but i think that is looming out there. so you have this committee that is chaired by jeff sessions where the gentleman who was in charge of it recruits in papadopoulous and he is now actually also talking to at least the senate committees and probably to mueller's team as well, you have this team that now seems to be kind of in low customer of the contacts with russia in addition to trump jr., to kushner and others.locust of russia in addition to trump jr., to kushner and others. but carter page overnight is now saying that shortly after his trip to russia to meet with russian officials in july of

2016, which we now learn he did meet with russian high official, not just university officials or whatever he was trying to say before, but shortly after the trip, he sentd an e-mail to one aide describing insights he had. and we now know that he was copied on e-mails that george papadopoulous sent regarding his contacts with moscow. it starts to look like we're circling around what could be collusion. is there is a crime in any of that multiple contacts with a foreign government? >> you know, when the other guests talked about presidents being subject to interviews by the fbi, you have to give a shout out to barack obama. he's the only president since richard nixon who has not been questioned in a federal criminal investigation. carter page, again, ryan, all of these people who seem low level who president trump denies knowing or tries downplay,

mueller is circling around them. they are the little fish designed to deliver the big fish. what do we know about george papadopoulous? we know he got arrested in august and he was cooperating with mueller since then, but we didn't find out about that until monday. so i think it's safe to assume that these other little fish like carter page might be cooperati cooperating. certainly mueller will try to turn mr. ryan who was arrested along with mr. manafort as kind of manafort's boy, he's his associate, so he will be relatively easy i think to get to cooperate with the government. he might give up the goods on people like his boss manafort. that's how these cases are made. i always say it's like law and order, the tv the show, where investigators go office to office asking questions building clues that ultimately leads them

to the big kahuna. >> and that of course is the president of the united states. and liz bet, thelizabeth, that k to trump's consistent desire to get rid of mueller. he ultimately fired james comey. he can't outright fire mueller. he would have to get the deputy attorney general to do it who said he one of the. you now have members of congress introducingdema demanding that robert mueller resign on his own based on this. there are human rule others that steve bannon is encouraging trump to defund mueller's investigation. can any of these attempts be seen on the impeachment side or in a legal sense? >> well, i think that they are

getting into deep water if they try to do that. i think both on a criminal sense and certainly on an impeachment sense. remember we go back to watergate, it was the firing of the special prosecutor archibald cox because he was about to get the tapes, wanted to get the tapes that was going to prove whether richard nixon was guilty or not of a crime. got fired. that produced huge public outcry and led to nixon's downfall. so any kind of fooling around with mueller has the danger of triggering public outrage and anxious impeachment. but it also could be obstruction of justice. just because he's the president and has the power to fire or not fire or whatever that power is, if he does it for the reason of covering up, then we are in obstruction territory in my view. >> and nick, what about if he starts pardoning people, what if

donald trump who i think frank makes a good point, is probably very much in fear of what mike flynn might say, if he sees jared kushner potentially getting in trouble, what if he starts pardoning people, is that obstruction? >> certainly could be obstruction because if he does it with the intent to obstruct the investigation and get rid of it because it is honing in on him, sure. that is obstruction. but don't forget the indictment that mueller came down with is for money laundering. money laundering is a crime in new york state. tax evasion is a crime in new york state. so trump is going to have a problem doing any pardons here. he can't pardon for new york state lieus. some of the new york state laws are more potent and may be more applicable to what happened here than would be some of the federal laws. so he is not in a great position, mr. trump. >> let's remember attempts to pardon or promises of pardons to the watergate burglars by nixon was one of the articles for

grounds for impeachment. >> let's say manafort or papadopoulous got pardoned. would they then go before an fbi agent to be interviewed, can they assert their fifth amendment right? >> they can, but that would take the legs right out from under the fbi interview and i agree with the others, the president is teetering on obstruction of justice. remember obstruction requires just because the president can do something doesn't mean that it's not illegal. if he's doing it to avoid in-cell natuin incriminating himself, that is obstruction. >> and paul, do you see an obstruction of justice case coming out of mueller's office? >> it's certainly possible. mueller is the most powerful person in the district of columbia. so yeah, there is grounds there if it will happen, it won't be impeachment, that is political, but the nation turns its eyes to roberts mueller. >> all right.

thank you all. great panel. up next, new details on how russia gate may have started in the first place. as master sergeant. they really appreciate the military family, and it really shows. we've got auto insurance, homeowners insurance. had an accident with a vehicle, i actually called usaa before we called the police. usaa was there hands-on very quick very prompt. i feel like we're being handled as people that actually have a genuine need. we're the webber family and we are usaa members for life. usaa, get your insurance quote today. people are fighting type 2 diabetes... with fitness... food... and the pill that starts with f. farxiga, along with diet and exercise, helps lower blood sugar in adults with type 2 diabetes. lowering a1c by up to 1.2 points. do not take if allergic to farxiga. if you experience symptoms of a serious allergic reaction

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there is a debate going on about whether the 20,000 e-mails should be released that they have hacked in too glp this week we learned from a surprise plea agreement in the russia investigation that one month before fox news analyst andrew napolitano made that claim, a donald trump campaign official was already trying to obtain hillary clinton's supposedly

missing e-mails which a lot of republicans including donald trump clearly believed russia had. and if we look at this development in the context of a longer timi time line, it's cle the hunt for russians with dirt on hillary clinton was a recurring theme in the trump campaign. let's go back to march 19, 2016 when russian operatives first hacked lits campaign chairman john podesta's e-mail account which did not become public knowledge until wikileaks released those e-mails in october. a month after the podesta hack in april of 2016, the democratic national committee first learned that russian government hackersr network and that became known in june. and we now know that during that same month, on april 26, trump campaign adviser george papadopoulous met in london with a profession on or who claimed to have contacts with russian government officials who were in

possession of dirt on hillary clinton in the form of thousands of e-mails. about two weeks later, on may 9, fox news analyst andrew napolitano goes on fox news and makes a similar claim about russians with clinton's e-mails. then a month after that, donald trump jr. starts his own search for that dirt when on june 3 he gets an efts ma-mail from rob goldstone who promises information from high level russian officials that would incriminate clinton and be useful to his father's campaign. to that donald jr. responds if it's what you say, i love it. six days later, donald trump jr., paul manafort and jared kushner attend the trump tower e-mail set up that meeting. and on that same day, whenever

the brurussians were offering, father tweeted at clinton where are your 33,000 e-mails that you deleted. and a month later on july 27, trump made that request directly to the russians when he said during a news conference russia if you're listening, i hope you're able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing. fast forward again to september over labor day weekend when the "wall street journal" reports yet another quest for russia access to clinton e-mails that got under way. peter w. smith told the "journal" that he began seekinging tseeking the e-mails he believed to be stolen. smith was found dead of apparent suicide weeks after he talked with the "journal." those efforts to get clinton's e-mails ultimately amounted to a fool's errands because here is the thing, there never has been any evidence that russians are or anyone else ever successfully hacked hillary clinton's private e-mail servers.

or that anybody russian or otherwise ever actually had her deleted e-mails. in fact hillary clinton might have been alone among the dnc, john podesta and even some state and federal government agencies in not being successfully hacked. go figure. and up next, my panel weighs in on whether the russians baited the hook by planting a clever fiction about having hillary clinton's e-mails in order to gain access and influence with donald trump and members of his campaign. stay with us. welcome! how's it going? hi!

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do you stand by your claim that you never -- campaign never talked to anybody from russia. do you stand by that claim? >> all i can tell you is this. there was no collusion. >> that defense from donald trump is wearing pretty thin in light of this week's rev ligs that a campaign adviser learned from a professor with tie to the russian government that they

were in possession of quote/unquote dirt on hillary clinton. joining me now is malcolm nance and sarah kensior. we've been on the air together i believe now since last july. >> yes. >> essentially telling the same story over and over again. >> every day. >> and when you first heard and you write in your book the plot to hack america about that andrew innapolitano clip that happened sort of out of the blue in april of last year, when you heard andrew napolitano say that, what did you think? >> in fact i came on msnbc that week to address that statement. because it was impossible. what they were saying was it napolitano had u.s. intelligence sources that were saying that he had information from the kremlin of an internal debate between vladimir putin, his senior staff about should they release 20,000

hacked hillary clinton e-mails. i said that level of intelligence is just impossible to have. >> how would he be saying it? >> he got from a website called what does it mean.com that had put it out and ittedit had a myl character who was a conduit of information from other russian sources that put this story into that conspiracy theory blog site and it made its way to napolitano and then on 27 july it made its way to donald trump. >> and we know that donald trump and the people who like donald trump are avid viewers of fox news. so to you does it make sense that if the kremlin wanted to plant the fictitious idea that they had the 20,000 to 30,000 e-mails that hillary clinton deleted because they were personal or whatever when her state department e-mails were turned over, that if they wanted to plant that, this would be the way to do it? put it on a website, that fox

news picks it up and it's now in the bloodstream. is that a typical way that the kremlin would brate? operate? >> yeah, and that kind of intent would be not just to reach people in the trump campaign, but to reach republicans in general, the trump bhas. and to kind of make this narrative, you know, resonate in american society. i tend to think though that if the kremlin wanted to talk to the trump campaign, they could have easily gone through paul manafort or other people in that campaign who had direct connections to the kremlin. so i don't think they necessarily needed to circumvent it for that particular reason. >> that is a question. you have carter page walking off the street and joinings rump foreign policy team, george papadopoulous who was a low level sort of guy, 29, walk in become a part of the inner sort of foreign policy team of the campaign, and then announce i'm going to on mos moscow, i can g vladimir putin in the room with donald trump. there seemed to be a lot of

people who were pedaling connections to the kremd lynnce contin cekremlin or putin. >> and i've said there will be multiple dirty tricks teams who had independent access or so they thought to information that russia was dangling in front of them. interesting about the whole 20,000 hillary clinton e-mails thing, it comes ten months after the russians initially hacked the dnc, which means their information warfare management team had already had the information they wanted, they needs to now plus up all of their, you know, their surrogates for surrogate surrogates to feed to donald trump. and worked. papadopoulous, maybe carter page, maybe mike flynn and through man for thafort.

all can be completely independent and then come together once it reaches donald trump or donald trump jr. >> and do you assume that the russians were lying, that they were just saying that they had these missing e-mails in order to dangle that possibility and draw in trump campaign people? >> i don't have to assume. we already know that now. because if they had had those e-mails, they would have been out years ago. but again, this came from russian sources. and there is no way anyone would ever know what was being said inside the office of vladimir putin. if that was a u.s. intelligence source, that person would have died with that information. and to leak it out to some obscure website and then shows up on fox news? that tells you you the russians injected it into the bloodstream. >> and do you think the american media needs to do some soul searching here? because all of this information couldn't have survived if it didn't have the oxygen of media interest in the e-mails as a source of news and information.

it wasn't just the conspiracy theorists that were hungry for the e-mails, it was us, the media. >> slooutsly they beabsolutely responsibility for that. a lot of this goes back to kind an obsession with hillary clinton with the false assumption that hillary clinton was bound to win the election so they could spend their time on matters like the ec males. there were also financial improprieties that were happening with the trump campaign that went unexamined. it doesn't take a genius to know that the media will bite on any kind of anti-hillary clinton story. so of course the skrkremlin wou peddle it in that way. it appeals to some of the bernie sanders voters and a lot of the public in general. so a smart move on their part, but the media should have paid more attention and done a better job. >> and is this the most

successful intelligence operation in at least modern kremlin history? >> i'm tempted to say it's the most successful intelligence operation in the history of the world. and i'm a scholar in this and i know people who are very, very close to this who were real time participants and they say that the russians apparently got their hooks into another country that has atomic bombs. but do you know who warned us? hillary clinton. >> she did. there is a lengthy video that you did can find online. nobody listened. thank you both very much. and coming up, why the republicans just can't quit donald trump.

accused of obstructing justice to theat the fbinuclear war, and of violating the constitution by taking money from foreign governments and threatening to shut down news organizations that report the truth. if that isn't a case for impeaching

and removing a dangerous president, then what has our government become? i'm tom steyer, and like you, i'm a citizen who knows it's up to us to do something. it's why i'm funding this effort to raise our voices together and demand that elected officials take a stand on impeachment. a republican congress once impeached a president for far less. yet today people in congress and his own administration know that this president is a clear and present danger who's mentally unstable and armed with nuclear weapons. and they do nothing. join us and tell your member of congress that they have a moral responsibility to stop doing what's political and start doing what's right. our country depends on it. more than a year into this story of russian attacks on our election and as the scope of the official inquiries widen, one

thing that has remained completely consistent besides donald trump's denials that there was ever any collusion has been the attitude of republicans when it comes to russian interference and that includes the rnc. for a lot of democrats, that is a sign of not just party loyalty to trump, but something worse. complicity with what russia did. back on october 18, on 2016, three weeks before the election, then chair of the dnc donna brazile wrote a letter to reince priebus offering to brief the rnc on the details of the dnc hack and asking that the parties issue a joint statement on the russia attack in an effort to affirm legitimacy of the process. this is 11 days before they officially accused russia government of trying to interfere in the election. and it got drowned out by the "access hollywood" tape. but there was no bipartisan

effort, no united front. we reached out to the rnc for comment. a spokesman pointed out that in july of 2016, priebus said he would be concerned if it were true that russians were behind the dnc hack and he also made comments denouncing the hack of e-mails. but republicans never responded. joini joining me now are former strategists, and a former ethics lawyer. and joel, you were on the clinton campaign. i don't know if you recall this letter that was sent out, i have a copy of it here. and in it, donna brazile starts off saying, you know, we challenged both parties to focus on the integrity of the election day process. she goes in to this question of russia hacking and asks let's stand together and help each over. do you recall any response whatsoever coming from the rnc? >> zero.

no response at all. maybe something happened, but i haven't heard anybody say there was a response. i haven't heard anybody from the rnc say there was. and she also outlined several other steps she wanted to take where they would make a statement jointly about five or six steps that had to be taken and radio silence, nothing. >> i will say that we reached out on to the rnc and we did speak somebody close to the situation or knowledgeable about the situation. and they said one possible explanation for why there wasn't a response is that this letter starts off talking about the russian interference, the e-mails warning that we can put a subject matter expert in place, let's brief each other, but then it goes in to things like the voting rights. and we all know most of us that the rnc is under a concept decree since the 1980s in which they are not allowed to touch anything involving election integrity because they

committed -- how shall we say they were attempting to interfere with the right to vote. >> yes. >> could it be that they didn't respond to the letter because donna brazile went beyond russia and talked about these other things? >> it could be, but for example around that time marco rubio if you recall said hey, today it's the democrats, tomorrow it could be us. and people like rick perry said i don't care what he has to say. people close to trump were putting up their hands saying we don't want go near this. >> and simon, you have written for u.s. news and world report back in april, you said the rnc was at the center of the penetration of trump's campaign by the russian government and nomination and use of russian information. what do you mean by that? >> it's clear that every single day of the general election the rn krm rnc put out a press release bloatings wikileaks releases and amplifying the russian campaign

and encouraging other people to use this thing -- to use these things every day. it was critical to the normalization of the use of this which became common with the media themselves. i mean imagine if the rnc had said we have doubts about this wikileaks stuff, we don't want to on toutouch it, we're patrio partisans and we don't want to put it in the bloodstream of the ecosystem, no question that reince priebus and sean spicer's embrace of the russian campaign was country ritical to its succ. collusion has been established. we know this took place. and i think far more scrutiny has to be placed in us looking at the role that the republican party infrastructure itself prayed in the supray prayed played in the success of this russian meddling. >> and republicans were very cold to the idea of joining with democrats and really actively condemning what russia was doing.

this is a clip where they referenced the "post" piece. it says in august when the obama administration quietly approached capitol hill to seek bipartisan support, cia director john brennan couldn't get top republicans to meet with him. we learned when a they sat down, they completely refused to cooperate. and when jeh johnson contacted people in charge of elections in various states, the republicans in those states booed him off. were republicans essentially willing to benefit from russian interference and essentially refusing to join with democrats out of pure partisanship over really concern for national security? >> well, it's unfortunate that, you know, when he wanted to privately meet with some key republicans to discuss the issue, it's unfortunate that they didn't want to meet.

now, you've got -- we all know that there is bad blood between republicans and democrats on the fact that donna brazile had tried to approach rins somethin do, i can see where reince priebus probably wasn't thrilled to meet with donna braille brazil on how to combat the russian hack. it's true marco rubio tried to.l on how to combat the russian hack. it's true marco rubio tried to. but to look further into this, the rnc should have been more proceed active on looking at it, but what about the fecle and what about t what about the ads that were let loose todemocrats and republicans on facebook, on twitter?about the ads that were loose to hurt both democrats and republicans on facebook, on twitter? this is how some of the hate groups got out. and we say a lot of the evidence

that russian advertisers were playing in our elections to get the right and left entangled in a bitter war. so the rnc maybe should have been more proactive, you're right, but what about the fec and what about getting them to get a little bit more reactive and a little bit more proactive in trying to prevent some of this. >> richard, i think there are a lot of democrats doing soul searching and wishing that the obama administration had been more aggressive, but we have examples in other countries of the same thing happening, the same ad, hacking against e-mails. there was an aggressive attempt to hack into the e-mails of the french candidates. hackers came after them you about but the french were prepared. we had fin land and estonia also

attacked. but the difference is that in those countries and germany and other places, both of the political parties came together and were very public about saying we don't care who wins, we don't want russia involved. and they were very proactive. and so wasn't it incumbent on the republicans to be as alarmed as democrats about an attack on our country? >> well, of course. russians have been do this for 100 years and they supported far left wing communist parties all over the world with some success in some places and you now it's these right wingnuts and so-called religious conservatives that they support and ku klux klan elements in the united states, bright bhart nre news and the rest of it. it's a serious threat to the united states governmentght bre news and the rest of it. it's a serious threat to the united states government and all

americans should be united in opposing this. and conservative voters are not going to tolerate elected officials and other political operatives in the republican party who persist in this coverup and the people for example stooeeve bannon and tho types who are encouraging president trump to fire robert mueller who would be an additional act of ob strubs estf justice. so it's important to distinguish from the extremist elements and the traditional conservatives who have no tomorrlerance of th russian clab rollaborate tors i our government. we have strongly committed to the independence of our own country. we won't allow russia to take advantage of racial animosities

and other issues that we have to deal with in this country in order to dominate us and that is exactly what has happened here and the trump white house is persistent in a coverup rather than allowing robert mueller to complete his investigation. >> very quickly, simon, you've been talking about this for quite some time, i take it your view is that none of those wings stood up to the russians? >> right. and in fact the rnc was critical in the russian operation succeeding. i mean there was active collusion. they all knew this was coming from russia. that is what was established this week. they knew as early as april, may, june that russia was attempting to get involved in the elections here in the united states. think about what happened the day after the republican convention ended, wikileaks released their dnc e-mails and caused the dnc chairman the day before the convention began to resign and created enormous chaos. are you telling me the trump campaign didn't know that was coming from russia? they all knew.

>> and there hasn't been a lot of honesty about what people knew i think is clear. thank you simon, richard and know noelle. noelle. oelle. noelle. (honking) (beeping) we're on to you, diabetes. time's up, insufficient prenatal care. and administrative paperwork, your days of drowning people are numbered. same goes for you, budget overruns. and rising costs, wipe that smile off your face.

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federal indictments were returned in washington today in the watergate bugging affair. seven people were indicted today. the five who were caught by the police, along with two others, g. gordon lid di, a former white house aid who was counsel to the committee of president nixon's campaign organization. and e. howard hunt, a former consultant for the white house. in a presidential year, indictments like these are the hottest potatoes on the market.

>> 45 years ago the first indictments were handed down in the watergate scandal. less than two months later president nixon was reelected in a landslide, carrying every single state except massachusetts and washington, d.c. you did have this lingering support for richard nixon, even after you had those indictments. why is that? >> why did nixon still have support? >> why did he seem to have such robust support? >> he was a radically popular president at this point in time, winning the reelection that you just mentioned. i think the republican party saw the possibilities of him being a great leader for the country. so i think that mr. republicans kind of callied around michd x richard nixon. >> you see the break-in of the

dnc physically during watergate and virtually through the e-mails by russian hackers. but you have a very different response from republican leadership. there seems to be a great wariness of watergate among senior level republicans in congress. now they don't seem to care all that much. is that a radical shift in the republican party itself or is it richard nixon inspired dread among his allies on the hill? >> no. i thit's ramped up partisanship that's driving what's going on right now. you hear from corker, you hear from flake. you sometimes hear from mccain that there are people who are kind of peeling off the president who are also republicans. that was nixon's biggest fear was that what was going to happen as things were started to be investigated was that people would peel off. for instance, john dean, his white house counsel say there is's a cancer surrounding the

presidency as early as january of '73. that's the fear that's going on. one of the things to keep in mind is that richard nixon as far as his persona goes is somewhat similar to donald trump. there's a real paranoia. there's a real desire for unity at all costs. thinking of any sort of protest as disloyal and infusing disloyalty within the nation. so i mean, i do think there's some parallels here between the two personas of the presidents carrying out both of these crises. the thing to watch, though, would be how many other republican senators start to break with the president. that's quite significant. >> when you talk about the similarities between nixon and trump, there's a certain kind of paranoia. a lot of people are looking at donald trump and seeing a kind of unraling in the way he's behaving publicly. what was nixon's mental state as

watergate was closing in on him? >> this is a debate historians have with themselves an awful lot. there's certainly a kind of feeling that nixon had something of a break down in the white house even before watergate but certainly around watergate he became extremely defensive. he became more warrior like which is i think a quality that he shares with our current sitting president. he certainly had something of a breakdown and was increasingly paranoid. there are allegations that alcohol was shofed in this. we don't necessarily have complete and complete evidence for that. but there certainly seemed to be something of a fall-apart on him as he watches people peel off the administration, people turn on him, people start speaking about what's going on within the white house and of course once the tapes get announced, he becomes increasingly paranoid and kind of prone to see this as a conspiracy against him and as

a victim. >> absolutely. paranoia was certainly the watch word of the day . it might be again. there's so much more coming up. keep it right here on mst nbc be has been excellent. they always refer to me as master sergeant. they really appreciate the military family, and it really shows. we've got auto insurance, homeowners insurance. had an accident with a vehicle, i actually called usaa before we called the police. usaa was there hands-on very quick very prompt. i feel like we're being handled as people that actually have a genuine need. we're the webber family and we are usaa members for life. usaa, get your insurance quote today.

. what i think is quite clear is that we can work together in the last analysis and that that what has been going on within the united states over the period of the last three years, the divisions, the violence, the disenchantment with our society, the divisions between blacks and whites, between the poor and more affluent, between age groups or the war on vietnam. we can start to work together. we are a great country. >> moments after delivering that message of unity after winning california's democratic presidential primary, robert f. kennedy was assassinated. his death came during one of the

most tumultuous years in american history. his legacy of connecting to americans across race, class and political lines is especially notable in today's hyper partisan age. and considering that the current occupant of the white house regularly says things like that. >> you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. wouldn't you love to see one of these nfl owners when somebody disrespects our flag to say, get that son of a bitch off the field. i'm the only one that matters. when it comes to it, that's what the policy is going to be. >> joining me now chris matthews. i always love talking to you, chris, and reading your books. this one because you are such a scholar on the kennedy family, you write so beautifully about them. it's an interesting time for it to come out.

there are beautiful photos in it. >> doesn't that grab you? this is something that's -- it's the african-americans singing at the baltimore train station the battle hymn of the republic. there's such a statement in that guy. he obviously was in the military as an unlisted guy. he's very poor and yet he had belief in bobby as a patriot. i think both communities trusted him. the 60s were rough and they're still rough. you it shows what you can do with the racial divide this this country. bobby tried to bring people together. >> let me play one clip. this is bobby kennedy talking to african-americans about his own brother's assassination.

a. >> for those of you who are black and are attempted to be filled with hatred and distrust of the injustice of such an act against all white people, i would only say that ki also feel in my own heart the same kind of feeling. i had a member of my family killed. he was killed by a white man. but we have to make an effort in the united states. we have to make an effort to understand. go beyond these rather difficult times. >> that of course was the night that martin luther king, jr. was assassina assassinated. you have somebody who is white, irish guy from massachusetts, who's able to people with such moral authority to african-americans. there's no one that can do that. >> thanks to working with nbc, i was able to get the tapes.

the police wouldn't go into that neighborhood. they left him alone. it was a tough neighborhood and they didn't know what was going to happen. bobby said, do they know you and the guy says no. there's no twittering, no e-mail or anything. they didn't know and he had to tell them. some of the people were still cheering him because they were just reacting to his presence, they weren't hearing his words. it gets back to what i believe in this book, is that this story of bobby kennedy is the spirit that survives the 60s, the spirit that could work. he said we have to make an effort. that's all he's saying, just make an effort. i think that what this president does -- i only call -- race is the san andreas fault in this country. he jumps on it. squeeze a few more votes out of the guys guys taking a knee. he always tries to find

something wreck get his 40%. that's all he wants. in the electoral college that's enough. let the 60% -- just discard them. >> i love the way you write about the kennedys. there is sort of a gallant narrative with the kenties. they were tough. >> don't you miss them? >> they were with joe mccarthy, right? >> i'll tell you about joe. it is a lot about the thing you mentioned, the irish thing. i grew up like that. my mom was very pro mccarthy. my dad said he went too far. bobby loved the guy. he drank himself to death. he abused witnesses. he used all kinds of tactics. bobby swore i'm never going to do that again. in fact, bobby wrote the resolution for the democrats condemning his friend. but yet at the end he went to

the funeral, he went to the grave site. he hid in the car to show his respect. never got out of the car. i got this from his daughter kathleen. when he heard at national airport that mccarthy had died, he was so distraught that he drove around the airport three times. he loved the guy and yet he knew -- bobby learned people you love can be wrong and can be the bad guy. that is real maturity. i think learning is politics. political career is essentially a learning career. it's like being a dentist. you've got to keep up. this guy trump is groundhog day. every morning is the same tweet. he never matures.

he never learns anything about race or people or foreign policy. it's the same. bobby is always studying civil rights, getting pushed around by james baldwin and his crowd up here in new york. he just took it. he said, you know, if i were them i'd be like this. and he went to his brother a week later and said we've got to do the civil rights thing. bobby did that. >> he was i think for a lot of african-americans the more heroic kennedy. >> his top aide had a lead pipe bashed over his head. >> can you speculate just based on having written this biography, what would have been different about america if bobby kennedy had lived and become president? >> you know, a lot of this i think broke bad president '70s.

let's talk progressive politics for a minute. the only way you get pregnantive action is if the communities hurt by injustice and all the systems that are rigged -- you know how the market works. the money's been taken out of the market before you even invest. so in the early '70s it all became social issues. we all started the joining archie bunker. let's make fun of him and let's make his son-in-law the smart one. so the sbekt actual is the good guy. but the character was sort of ridiculous. why are you living here not making any money and i'm pulling the train here? and then it began that reagan came along. he scooped up all the discarded white working class. you don't like the democrats anymore? come on home. i'm a patriot. when all this stuff kept getting

worse and worse on the social issues, they're legitimate issues. and choice of course became a big issue among the conservative catholics. all of a sudden the country is divided socially rather than economically. i think we're better off when we're divided by economics. that way if you're making 30 or 40 a year and you want to get a break, you would actually vote together. you may not hang out together, but you'll vote together. i think that's broken now. you've got union guys voting for trump. he's not building. he said he was going to rebuild america. where? why don't we go back to rebuilding this country congresswomen roosevelt built it. lincoln built during the civil war. do it. we built the empire state

building in the middle of the depression. we need a system of rapid rail across this country. put every construction trade -- they'd be the happiest construction trades in history. they'd all be working. stop giving tax breaks to the rich and start spending it. that's an old liberal argument. >> i wonder if projecting forward to 2020, i almost feel that the only thing that could sort of beet the nihilism of donald trump is nostalgia. will it take a kennedy or something like that to beat donald trump? >> you could says no tall ja abo -- nostalgia about jesus too. most of the time his heart was out there.

and i think that we have to make an effort and we don't anymore. i think whoever the democratic candidate is next time, it's got to be somebody who hasn't discarded the white working class. it has to be somebody who doesn't go to carol king concerts all day. bruce springsteen maybe. i'm dead serious about this. once you start saying i'm better than you, i went to a really good school, they get the message. a guy i was in the peace corps with said people don't mind being used, they mind being discarded. i think the white working class today feels they've been discarded by the democrats. >> this is a grandson in the lineage of bobby kennedy. i wonder what you think of him and how he's coming along

politically. >> it's hard to stomach a trillion dollar tax cut being proposed to benefit wealthy adults at the same time that our republican colleagues are telling us we can't afford to care for sick kids. it's hard to stomach indifference from this chamber as chip lapsed. >> he seems more like prince harry, doesn't he? >> he's a ginger. >> he's great. he's got it all. he did the peace corps, which is very important to me. he went to law school and worked as a local prosecutor. that's the kennedy route. he didn't jump ahead of the line and say give me what i have a right to. i think he's got it. long before he becomes a senator or president, we've got to restore the spirit. i think a lot of people my age who were in the peace corp with me really do feel that spirit of bobby kennedy.

it's not so much the book that i'm out there promoting. it's him. it's bobby and that spirit of we can work together. look at him. i used -- he would say compassionate. that's what we need. that's what we need. we need maybe a shorter word for it, but looking out for other people. the trump is not that american really if you think about it. not that way. >> it's hard to see how we go back to this era. >> i think a picture is worth a thousand words. that picture and this picture on the cover of those kids looking to him as hope. we don't have that right now. >> we don't. coming up, twitter boots one of their biggest trolls, next.

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trump asked me to get involved because my reputation among other things in politics is understanding of the convention process, the delegate process and most of the major successful big conventions over the last 30 years i've been intimately involved in. >> did roger recommend you for the job? >> roger was one of the two or three people who strongly recommended me, yes. >> did he bring you in? >> no. not at all. >> last friday night paul manafort's long time friend and partner roger stone went ballistic on twitter.

we've had you on before. we brought you back because i feel like your documentary is in a lot of ways the best explainer of donald trump and the nexus between him, roger stone and paul manafort. briefly explain what that connection is. >> so paul manafort and roger stone go back to the early '80s with donald trump. donald trump was was their client at black, manafort and stone. roger stone was literally the first person to suggest to trump to run for the presidency. he spent 29 years as trump's closest political advisor, cultivating him for the white house. >> he kind of talks about roger stone as sort of a nixon. this is donald trump from your documentary get me roger stone, talking about donald trump.

take a listen. >> i was like a jockey looking for a horse. can't win the race if you don't have a horse. i interceded with the portsmouth new hampshire chamber of commerce to arrange a lunch. the helicopter landing was as big a news as his speech. this is kind of the first time i saw the power of trump, the public interest in trump was palpable, electric. >> what do you think roger stone wants from all of this? what does he want from donald trump's presidency? >> roger and a lot of the political consultants have a long history of taking things that have worked in the past and fitting them for the modern era. what he saw in donald trump was to take all the things that worked with richard nixon and ronald reagan and he saw trump had the ability to turn it all into a great tweet and to modernize it. he saw his charisma and over the

years helped teach him the methods to turn that charisma into the presidency. >> he shares with donald trump a certain attitude toward life, a certain penchant for conspiracy theories. he wrote an entire book sort of putting forward his theory that lyndon johnson killed jfk. he believes in these conspiracy theorie theories. he and donald trump are burters. it is kind of destabilizing to think this is who's running the country. you look at roger stone, you're pretty much seeing donald trump. >> right. what paul manafort says in the film is that even though it's a trump presidency, it's influenced by stone philosophy. what we found in studying roger stone's career and relating it to donald trump is that trump doesn't have an ideology so much as a political philosophy. and that philosophy is win at all costs and that correlates

also to nixon. of course roger stone started what richard nixon at the age of 19 and was the youngest person called before the watergate grand jury and now of course is involved in russia gai russia-gate. >> we spend four years chasing paul manafort for an interview and we were actually the last people to interview him on camera. he seemed that after he resigned or was pushed out of the trump campaign that he was embittered

at how he was treated. what is so interesting about the indictment is something that you see in our film. roger and paul manafort were on the vanguard of going to brutal third world dictators and getting their business, making millions of dollars off them. at the time they were registered as foreign agents. we see that part of paul manafort's problems now is that he isn't registered as a foreign agent. they saw an opportunity to make a lot of money off of going and representing some of the most unscrupulous people on the planet. this is a through line in paul manafort's career. >> is paul manafort somebody who saw donald trump as a vehicle to enrich himself? >> absolutely. these guys absolutely love the high of election night, the thrill of the countdown, the manipulation of the people. they're not just in it for the money. the money is a great perk and maybe it morphed into a love of

money. but their real source here is the thrill of the hunt. >> why does it seem that there's so much emphasis on russia, ukraine. why does that seem to be such a particular area of interest for all these guys? >> i think that a lot of these political consul at that particular times and lobbyists could make a lot of money. the lobbying class really exploded and the consulting class gained so much more power. a lot of people went to look overseas for work, lobbying and consulting work. that was one of black, manafort, stone's practices, was representing brutal third world dictators to lobby in the u.s. for foreign aid to support their war against the more leftist communist regimes that were

rising, say in africa. you know, this is -- what they have done, paul manafort especially -- roger stone has also done work in the ukraine. michael ka pew toe has also done work in the ukraine working for boris yet sin. that is their new bread and butter. >> just based on having interviewed paul manafort, interviewed roger stone, do you think they're the type of men who are afraid of going to prison? >> well, paul manafort had -- it's been disclosed that his password seems to have been bond 007. he was leading this lavish jet setting lifestyle hanging out with oligarchs in the lap of luxy ri ri.

roger stone insists that paul manafort is intensely loyal to the president, that if he tried to flip on the president he would be lying and he would never lie. but you see that paul manafort even ob few skated in our film in that clip. >> in 30 seconds. he was either put on by roger stone or not. >> and paul manafort's family is wrapped up in this too. he expressed to us great affection for his family. his daughter is a film maker like us. when the heat is on rgs it's hard to guess what decisions will be made. >> his children were living in some of those multimillion dollar apartments he might have been buying with his ill gotten gains. this is going to get interesting. good luck. oz car buzz. i hope you guys get the award.

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accused of obstructing justice to theat the fbinuclear war, and of violating the constitution by taking money from foreign governments and threatening to shut down news organizations that report the truth. if that isn't a case for impeaching and removing a dangerous president, then what has our government become? i'm tom steyer, and like you, i'm a citizen who knows it's up to us to do something. it's why i'm funding this effort to raise our voices together and demand that elected officials take a stand on impeachment. a republican congress once impeached a president for far less.

yet today people in congress and his own administration know that this president is a clear and present danger who's mentally unstable and armed with nuclear weapons. and they do nothing. join us and tell your member of congress that they have a moral responsibility to stop doing what's political and start doing what's right. our country depends on it. ms-13 is a mess. raffle northham increased the threat of ms-13. his policies are dangerous. >> i'm ed gillespie, candidate for governor. i sponsored this ad for a safer, stronger virginia. >> the ad you just heard is from the campaign of ed gillespie.

he's facing off against democratic lieutenant governor ralph northam. northam has a narrow 1.2 percentage point lead over gillespie. gilless's ads seem to be working. let's talk a little bit about these ads. we know that gillespie has hire add former trump staffer who worked trump's virginia campaign, actually the field director for the campaign. with that field director in tow, ed gillespie has sharpened the distinctions and running ads that really do push up against

issues of race. i want to play the first ad that the latino victory fund has ran. here's the latino victory fund ad. ♪ >> run, run, run! >> is this what donald trump and ed gillespie mean by the american dream? >> so that ad was pulled on tuesday after a terrorist attack in new york city that involved a pickup truck hitting people for real. now, this is the rebuttal ad from ed gillespie's campaign. it's kind of his closing argument ad as well. take a look. >> this new attack ad from a democratic group -- >> single most disgusting unfair

thing i've ever seen. >> calling people that don't agree with you white supremacists is totally out of bounds. >> this assumes virginia voters are really stupid. >> ralph northam disdains us. >> those ads seem to be working. ed gillespie seems to be gaining with this argument that they just think you're deplorable. what do you think? >> i think i have a really queasy feeling in my stomach about this race. i'm still cautiously optimistic that pause of the energy that we see on the left across the country, northam will still be able to pull this out. make no mistake. this looks a lot like trump and clinton. the republicans, we know what they stand for. it's these culture wars, race ichbl and tax cut-- racism and

cuts. people don't know where he stands on anything. he has tried to reinvent himself for this moment and it has led to tremendous lack of enthusiasm. so the gillespie play book has really worked in this case. i just hope that we can hold on. >> it's interesting. jason, you wrote a piece called conservatives shed white tears over political ads calling out ed gillespie's racist ads. you've also had this weird thing happens where liberal groups have walked away from northam because he has dropped support for sanctuary cities. where ralph northam apparently put out campaign flyers that don't have his black running mate on them. what is going on in virginia? >> this is the thing. i want people to understand this. i'm right next to virginia. i see some of the local ads. i talk to a lot of people on the campaigns. the demographics suggest ralph

northam probably squeaks out a win. the larger issue is this. if he does lose, it's not necessarily because ed gillespie has managed to stap boo the dna of bigots in virginia. leaving fairfax off of campaign literature, that angered a lot of the enthusiastic supporters of justin fairfax. coming out five days before an election and saying i'm not in favor of sanctuary cities, there are no sanctuary cities in virginia. he didn't need to step into that. ralph has allowed gillespie to control the narrative. i think it's also because of ms-13. this is a local race. >> there's something that you will recall, joel, from the campaign that you worked on. the bots have arrived in virginia.

twitter bots swarm into the virginia governor's race promoting chatter about a racially charged ad buy days before the report. the reaction has been amplified by automated bot accounts. out of the 15 accounts tweeted most tweektly, 13 of the 15 belong to fully or partially automated bots. now we have that activity transferred into a local race. >> right. the danger here is we've ignored what happened in the presidential race to an extent with a president who seems to want to live in this fiction that russians didn't meddle with our elections. they did. his campaign colluded with them. the threat was they would do it over and over again in other democrats and now it could be happening at a state level. when bots are engaged, you know there are some nefarious players involved. what's happening on the ground in virginia is what strikes me about it from afar, that northam

has let gillespie control the final week of the conversation, not a great place to be. you always expect it to be tight. historically, if you look at the states that have governor's races the year after a presidential, new jersey and virginia, typically they have elected a person from the party that didn't win the presidential race. that being said, there is dissatisfaction on both sides. you've got people like -- he's pandering to racism and neo confederates. virginia is a moderate state. at the end of the day i think northam may squeeze out a close race here. we are not going to know at 9:00 where this thing stands. >> crystal you ran for office in virginia. you know the state well.

are the democrats making a mistake by chasing after the virginia suburbs and thinking they can get suburb ban white women rather than scooping up the base? >> i think that they need to stand for something. think about the fact that bernie sanders, probably the furthest to the left politician in the democratic party, is also the most popular politician in the democratic party not because he's so far to the left, but because he stands for something. that's the problem. we continue to run these candidates. who people think that they're full of it. they don't trust what they're saying. so it doesn't resonate with anyone, with the base, with white sban women. it doesn't resonate with anyone. >> hillary clinton did win virginia by the way and she won by appealing to sban white women also. tim kaine did that when he won the governor's race in virginia.

i think democrats do well when they can speak to their core constituencies, the part of the base of the party that's active but also appeal to some of the suburban voters. >> charlottesville took place obviously in virginia. think does the monument thing wind up helping elect gillespie? >> if gillespie gets elected, it's northam's race to lose. i still think he's in the lead. if you're in some of these suburban towns in virginia, you're not necessarily worried about the monuments. you're worried about the ads that gillespie ran that says northam wants to give guns to pedophiles. he literally said that. some of the press that you're seeing nationally is not what people are seeing in different parts of the state.

that's why this becomes an issue of the ground game. when you have mistakes like northam has made -- you're alienating your base right before the election. if you look at the primaries, the democrats should probably win, but if they win it will be in spite of mistakes. >> do you think if gillespie is able to win this way, he's pretending to be this sort of defender of the kefs. does that wind of spraeting to the whole gop? >> absolutely. gillespie is a numbers guy. i'm sure they're looking at numbers that are telling them this is the way to go. it's a little bit unusual, but this is where the energy is in the republican party. they draw the democrats into these cultural battles rather than focusing on pocketbook issues. and it's working. >> is that a depressing

diagnosis of the republican party going forward? >> i think long-term the consequencings for this for the republican party are not to be underestimated. i think they will pay a price for this. it's not where the country is. we're becoming more diverse, not less diverse. it will divide us. it will harm us. but long-term trends in this country are behind where this country is going. we have to do a better job as democrats about winning on election day. i think we have more opportunities where we can win and we can't squander them. hopefully tuesday we'll win the dwofr's races in new jersey and virginia. i think virginia is going to be particularly important because it is a swing state. >> it's a swing state where you would give ed gillespie and his trumpy friends the ability to redistrict and draw the gerrymandering lines.

obviously the demographics are only going in one direction. even if short-term this is working for the republican party, this is sort of a goldwater moment for the party in terms of where it has placed itself on the spectrum in terms of race and democracy. >> if you can win a gubernatorial election, i think we should all be looking for passports. that's a very very bad sign. i think the virginia voters are smarter than that. we can't forget, new jersey is about to sweep out everybody with an r in their name. that was a state that chris christie dominated for years both. i don't think a gillespie win means everyone is going to be running around in a confederate flag. i we've got to be careful of

presuming this is a trend as opposed to what might be local. up next, bishop william barber joins us for your moral moment in a challenge to the religious right. for your heart... your joints... or your digestion... so why wouldn't you take something for the most important part of you... your brain. with an ingredient originally found in jellyfish,

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coming up next, bishop william barber joins me to explain his challenge to one of donald trump's biggest evangelical supporters.

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it all began with a vision. that vision was of a world class university for evangelical christians, and i want to thank you, because, boy, did you come out and vote, those of you that are old enough. in other words, your parents. boy, oh boy. you voted. >> there are few schools as closely associated with donald trump as liberty university.

the evangelical institution and its president, jerry falwell jr. have been prominent supporters, even inviting trump to speak at this year's commencement. now a group of progressive clergy are taking on the university and its mixing of faith and conservative politics. in an open letter to falwell, barber challenges him to a debate and contends we contend that the greatest threat to christianity is that our lord's gospel will be confused with white supremacy. you and others who see the tr p trump -- we have reached out but not heard back. joining me is bishop william barber. bishop barber, this started -- great to talk to you, as always. this started with the expulsion of a clergyman, right? of a pastor from liberty university. can you quickly explain? >> actually it was a prominent christian author named jonathan

martin and a critic of the trump administration on theological and the basis of the gospel who was taken off the campus. he had been invited on. and told that he would be arrested for trespassing if he returned. >> wow. and so martin, according to npr, said that he was photographed, told by liberty university police that he would be immediately arrested if he stepped foot on the property ever again. he's been a frequent critic of donald trump and falwell jr. falwell's response said that martin called the university one of the most hostile environments to the gospel in the u.s. i assume martin is a globalist. we understand that is upsetting to leftist leaning and progressive christians to see so many evangelicals supporting donald trump but many believe evangelicals are among the forgotten men and women in this country who voted for change in 2016. that kind of sounds like steve bannon, globalist. what is that about? >> it actually is a threat to the gospel because it's not the

gospel. falwell joining others like franklin graham and jeffers and tony perkins have actually said that donald trump is the dream president, even though his policies are a nightmare to the very people the gospel lift up that we should be concerned about as a nation, the poor, the sick, creating tax problems that hurt the least of these. it's a nightmare and contrary to the gospel. and falwell and others know they really can't stand the critique. in fact recently falwell was reported as teaming up with steve bannon, the white nationalist, to expose fake republicans. well, white evangelicalism, not evangelicalism, not i'm an evangelical. i tell people i'm a conservative theologically liberal evangelical. but he's trying to connect this -- trying to connect the gospel to white nationalism is as old as the slave masters religion that promoted slavery. this is like the slave masters

religion in the 21st century. what they're afraid of is they're so much against -- first of all, the 2500 scriptures that you hardly ever hear them talk about that talk about our deepest moral principles. scholarship is against them. francis fitzgerald shows how falwell and his like are losing among millenials. and then soon chandra has written a book that has done demographics and shown without african-americans and immigrants, white evangelicalism as a theology is dying. to say white evangelicalism or conservative evangelicalism and then try to suggest the policies line up with the gospel when they really do not. >> and you've had jerry falwell jr. tweet finally a leader in the white house about donald trump, jobs returning, north korea backing down, et cetera. in an interview with

breitbart.com last saturday, he said that he thinks the leadership. republican party should go and that trump, if they do, trump will be the greatest president since abraham lincoln, which is interesting. paul ryan, who has battled with his own church, he is a catholic, on these issues of cutting taxes for the rich and cutting programs for the poor will be selling that on fox news tomorrow. do you challenge paul ryan on his theology, because he claims to be a very grounded catholic. >> deeply, deeply. now, you've always had persons that would attempt to make religion fit the goals of oppression. that's not new. it's as old as the magicians of pharaoh against moses, it's as old as the false profphets against the real prophets. it's as old as ministers who took on dr. king. but listen, the bible actually said, this is the one scripture in ezekial 22. your politicians have become

like wolves when you attack the poor and you have preachers covering up for the politicians. falwell and others are covering up. we're ready for a debate when they're ready to have it. >> let us know if they agree to that debate. that would be terrific and we may host it on this show. so reverend falwell, if you'd like to debate bishop barber, we'd appreciate it. "a.m. joy" is back tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. eastern. please stay with msnbc for the latest.

at planters we know how to throw a remarkable holiday party. just serve classy snacks and be a gracious host, no matter who shows up. do you like nuts? good day, everyone. i'm alex witt here at msnbc world headquarters in new york. it's high noon in the east, 9:00 a.m. out west and here's what's happening. new twists today in the russia investigation may cast a long shadow as the president heads overseas. the trump camp downplaying the role of a former advisor, but new information and this video uncovered in the last 24 hours suggests otherwise. we're goingo