♪ spread a little love today ♪ spread a little love my-y way ♪ ♪ spread a little something to remember ♪ philadelphia cream cheese. made with fresh milk and real cream makes your recipes their holiday favourites. the holidays are made with philly. we have breaking news about a church shooting in sutherland springs, texas. officials reported someone walking into the first baptist church and opening fire. multiple people are reported to be done but there's no clear picture on casualties. police were reportedly pursuing the suspect, we will keep you on top of this breaking story, information as we get it. i'm keir simmons in london and we are following two more breaking stories this hour in connection with the russia probe. nbc news has learned that robert

mueller's team has enough information against michael flynn and his son michael to bring charges. if the elder flynn is indicted, he will be the first current or former trump administration official to be formally accused of criminal wrongdoing by the mueller team. also breaking this hour, we can report about new evidence that shows that secretary of commerce wilbur ross is in business with a company that has close ties to vladimir putin. we have our nbc news team of reporters and analysts ready to break all down, we begin with the breaking news about commerce secretary wilbur ross. an nbc news investigation has found previously undisclosed financial links between the president's commerce secretary wilbur ross and a business partly owned by vladimir putin's son-in-law as well as others from his inner circle. the information comes from what has been known as the paradise papers. seven million files leaked from a law firm in bermuda. they showed ross continued to

control a major steak in a shipping company called navigator which has close business ties to a company owned by members of putin's inner circle. this business holding did not come out during his confirmation process chief foreign correspondent richard engel helped break this story. richard, tell us about this investigation. >> it's fairly complex and the way we got to this information is also come politics but what it reveals at the end of the day is very simple -- so first the hard part there was just a couple about an hour ago a release of some documents and this is being called the paradise papers and it was the release of documents that were taken from a law firm in bermuda, a law firm called applebee and this law firm specializes in setting up businesses overseas for its customers and wilbur ross was one of the big clients of this firm. and in this leak, which was

the -- the documents were leaked, a huge trove of documents, were leaked to a german newspaper, then they were analyzed by a group called the international consortium of investigative journalists, we got an early look as well at some of these documents. the documents from that law firm show that wilbur ross is connected to several holding companies and those holding companies hold stakes in this company called navigator and navigator does extensive business with a russian oil and petrochemical company which is effectively considered, we have been told, very close to the kremlin. in fact, one of the owners of that company is vladimir putin's son-in-law, other owner of that company is under u.s. sanctions. another person in that company has a company that has been hit by u.s. sanctions so while it's a round about way to get there,

what it reveals is that a cabinet member through business ties has these links to high-level russian officials and including for the first time a link to vladimir putin's own family. >> pretty stunning, richard engel in new york, thank you for that crucial reporting. turning now to another breaking news story, another twist in the russia investigation. nbc news has learned that special counsel robert mueller's team has enough evidence in their investigation of michael flynn and his son michael to bring charges. if the elder flynn is indicted he will be the first current or former trump administration official to be formally accused of criminal wrongdoing by the mueller team. joining me now, nbc news political reporter carol lee from washington and nbc news chief white house correspondent halle jackson traveling with the president in tokyo. carol, what are the nuts and bolts of this breaking news about the flynn information? do we have a sense of a timeline here? >>.

>> what we know is that the powell is's office has come pilled enough evidence to bring charges in this investigation into flynn and his son michael g. flynn. how that plays out depends on a number of factors. there's a number of different types of charges that the special counsel could bring against either of these individuals. whether or not either or both of them decide that they want to cooperate with the special, chald change the die 'nam psychothe timing depends on whether the -- michael flynn the former miser or his son or both are either in talks or considering cooperating or are already cooperating with the special counsel's office. but we have learned there are a number of things the special counsel is looking at. in particular michael flynn's conduct while he was national security adviser, specifically

on whether or not he took certain steps that would have benefited the government of turkey while serving inside the white house so there's a number of different ways this could play out. we're not sure how that's going go but there's clearly an effort to step up pressure by special counsel on michael flynn. >> halle is deep into the night there where the president is so i'm guessing we're waiting for reaction for the white house on either of these stories. >> all of them, right. i mean; this is -- just to give you a little bit of guidance, keir, you know this living overseas, it's 4:00 in the morning local time in tokyo. within the past two or three hours you've had these two significant news stories break, including the one richard was talking about at the top of your program, the one on the so-called paradise papers. remember, secretary wilbur ross is traveling with the president in asia, leading the ceo delegation, the idea of secretary ross being here as he has been on other foreign trips is to be making these connections with the business

community, working on trying to begin negotiation on some of these bilateral trade deals so secretary ross also waking up presumably here in the next bit to this news that has now broke on nbc news and a lot of outlets on the world, keir, so you're right, we don't have reaction from the white house yet. we have asked for that. we're looking for comment. the commerce department has already responded as richard laid out in that statement but the question now is does the president have confidence in his commerce secretary? will there be any action, disciplinary action, any kind of reprimand from the white house? those are the kinds of questions we're looking to get answers to. you got that, then you have what carol was just talking about which is the situation now with the former national security adviser michael flynn. we have asked the white house about any response to the news that carol is reporting out here. and why is that significant? remember, unlike paul manafort, for example, or unlike rick gates who was involved in the transition and then involved with that outside super pac when

this mueller indictment came down, now you have somebody the special counsel has zeroed in on who has actually served in the trump administration, who is part of the white house with this very high level of clearance involved in the most intimate matters of national security for a period of just over three, hour in weeks, essentially. that's a direct connection now between the donald trump white house, between the special counsel and that is going to create obviously some fallout here as we look ahead to what could happen throughout the week here. >> carol and halle both working these stories tirelessly. thank you both. i want to take a moment to remind our viewers about the expanding russia investigation. michael flynn was one of the first trump associates to come under scrutiny in the special probe led by robert mueller into possible collusion between moscow and the trump campaign. he was fired 24 days into the job. earlier this week, the russia investigation took a turn when former campaign manager paul manafort was indicted along with

his aide rick gates. former trump adviser george papadopoulos pled guilty to lying to federal agents despite numerous connections between the trump administration and russia. the white house argues that the connection to the president is minimal. take a look at the president defending flynn back in february. >> michael flynn, general flynn, is a wonderful man. i think he's been treated very, very unfairly by the media. i think it was a sad thing he's been treated so badly. >> today flynn jr. tweeting "the sjw" that's social justice warriors "are out in full this morning. the disappointment on your faces when i don't go to jail will be worth all your harassment." joining me, alan dershowitz, and malcolm nance, msnbc terrorism analyst and author of "the plot to hack america." i want to get your reaction to this use that mueller is

preparing charges against michael flynn starting with you, malcolm. >> well, this is very serious if this pans outs and it turns into an indictment. you're talking about the former director of the defense intelligence agency, one of the top intelligence officers in america who then went on the become the national security advisor to the president who may be facing criminal charges and it's interesting because from the reporting that you've done, these charges are not directly related to trump russia, they're directly related to his activities involving the government of turkey and i think that's just the tip of the iceberg, that's just to get him to comply. but this is extremely serious. >> if you here in the white house advising members of the administration there, what are you telling them poll do at this stage legally? >> first of all, there's no surprise here. i predicted the indictment of flynn back in august when i wrote my book "trumped up." i predicted it on television,

it's the way mueller works. he's going go domino by domino until he gets to the big domino in the aefl office. what he's hoping for is every domino fall willing cause another domino to fall and flynn has a very experienced lawyer. he's up for grabs. he says "i'll make a deal with either side. if the president pardons me, that's fine, if he doesn't i'll make a deal with mueller and turn on the president." it depentsds if he has anything of importance to tell mueller about the president. the first rule of committing crime in america is always commit a crime with somebody more important than you are so you can turn them in and they can't turn you in. so there are no surprises here in the white house, there are no surprises in mueller's office. this was entirely predictable and there will be more to come. >> eric, is that right. do you think mueller is targeting the president himself or following the evidence wherever it takes him? >> well, i think he's doing both and i agree with my former

professor alan dershowitz on that. i would also note that it's simply astounding that at this point we are talking about the possibility that president trump would pardon michael flynn for crimes that would have no justification for traditional reasons for a pardon. if that happens, that actually plays out, that would be grounds for an impeachable offense. >> well, remember caspar weinberger was pardoned by george bush as he was about to go to trial and nobody talked about an impeachable offense there. it's hard to find an impeachable offense in the exercise of a constitutional power. it's a political sin, obviously, it's not a crime. is an impeachable offense? it depends on how you interpret the constitution. the constitution says bribery, treason or other high crimes and misdemeanors. it doesn't include the exercise of constitutional power so it's a close question as to whether it could lead to impeachment.

it would certainly be a very, very costly political act and he has to measure that against the benefits he would get by not having flynn testify against him. hard choice. >> does the president have the power to pardon as a means, if you like, to close this down or slow it down? >> constitutionally he has the power to do it all. constitutionally he could fire the special prosecutor -- special counsel, he could close down the investigation, he can tell the justice department not to investigate anything but that would be costly. just like president nixon had the constitutional power to fire archibald cox but it contributed to the atmosphere in washington that led to his impeachment. >> one thing if i could add that i'm worried about now is that it was reported in may, it was a michael isikoff story in yahoo! news that trump sent a message to flynn, we don't know how, telling him to "stay strong." so what i'm worried about is that there's an implicit rink and nod arrangement whereby flynn stays strong and down the

road maybe years from now he gets a pardon as trump is heading out the door. and if i were bob mueller, i would look to see if there were any winks and nods. >> that's an important point because if there's a specific quid pro quo, that could constitution obstruction of justice. remember collusion is not a crime except in antitrust violations. it's not a crime to collude in russia. >> thank you, alan, eric and malcolm, i would love to talk more but i want to break away because we have breaking news. i want to go to ayman mohyeldin in new york. ayman. >> we have breaking news that we want to interrupt the discussion just taking place to interrupt our viewers about a church shooting that has now taken place in sutherland springs, texas, located about 20 miles outside of san antonio. this is the latest information

we're getting here into our newsroom. officials reported someone walk withing into the first kbap technical assistance church and opening fire and we are getting these preliminary reports so it's important to caution this is obviously a developing story. we are hearing that multiple people are reported to be down but there's no clear picture yet on casualties or fatalities. police were reportedly pursuing the suspect. we'll go to bring in nbc news terrorism analyst malcolm nance who was just part of that conversation and we values with us nbc news law enforcement analyst jim cavanaugh, retired special atf agent. good to have both of you with us. this is a developing story so we will update you, excuse me in advance for disrupting you if i have to. jim, let me begin with you, in a situation like this that emerges within the last couple minutes as we are learning of this mass shooting taking place, walk us through as the fbi and sate jeff are rolling to the scene. what is their priority going to

be? >> well, they want to stop any more killing, that's the priority of the first uniformed officers on the scene, they want to get there, they want to locate the killer, the shooter, the active killer, they want to stop them, they want to locate him. your report, ayman, that they may be in pursuit of the active killer, active shooter, maybe they have him close by, maybe they're in a car chase but it sounds like there's some location on the shooter, that's first stop any shooting. of course the trauma rescue of all people who have been shot or wounded, ambulances, fire department, paramedics have to get there quickly. texas rangers, texas dps, department of public safety. federal agents, everybody's coming, there's going to be plenty of help but the key is you have to find the killer, stop the killer. >> let me quickly update you as i mentioned because we are going to be getting this information on a rolling basis. we've gotten word from one of our investigative producers who

is reporting at least 15 injured, multiple people dead. fbi and atf rolling to the scene of this church and we're still as we are trying to ascertain whether the shooter is alive ar has actually been neutralized as we are initially hearing. malcolm, walk us through what that might mean when we hear the expression "neutralized." not necessarily means that he is dead, correct? >> right, it might mean he's been shot and is injured and is now under the custody of the police or the police got him without actually killing him. very interesting about the number of -- if you don't mind my diverting. interesting about the number of casualties because that tells me quite a bit about the shooter's -- certainly his firepower. whether he had a long rifle, we don't know that or yet but 15 injured or multiple dead tells me he either had a handgun where he did multiple reloads or a

long rifle where he had 30 or more rounds. also interesting that he did it at a church. usually these have some minor political bent but this is completely fresh, we have no idea what the nature of the shooting is. >> let me pick up to that point, jim, that malcolm touched upon which is the initial number of casualties and fatalities that we're getting. again, we are at least hearing 15 injured, multiple people dead. what does that tell you in a small environment like a church, one that i'm assuming is not a megachurch of any type but a small church, what does that tell you about the nature of what took place there? >> well, i agree with malcolm. and it's hard to get away. it may indicate it's hard to get away. we just had a shooting in nashville at the antioch church where a fellow came in there trying to copy dylann roof and shot a bunch of people, he left a letter in his car saying he

wanted to copy dylann roof. i went over there and talked to nbc producers over there, it's quite close to where i am and really tragic. just a guy, a hate crime trying to shoot parishioners. they tackled him, one of the parishioners tackled him and subdued him but he was able to shoot and kill and wound a number of people. this seems much more involved, many casualties and wounded and i agree with moll come. you could have somebody with a rifle and it could be handguns, it could be two handguns, it could be one handgun with big magazine bus people can't get away quickly. they come up on them. if there is inside the church, ay monoit may be only a few fire exists and he could be shooting if there's nobody else there to stop them. security has to start on the perimeter outside and all churches, all gatherings, all public places have coach outside security first and inside as well but you can't let people

just walk in too many of these things we see when we do the post-analysis the came walking across the parking lot with a long gun. a visible long gun. i don't know if that happened here but we've seen that in the past and motivation is very -- we had las vegas, they're still trying to dig that out. i think -- i think city that's a gambler's bet on him, he was losing money and take it out on the world but sometimes the motive is elusive as well. >> we're trying to piece this together and we know there are a lot of police, emergency responders, ambulances there according to some official wire reports that we're seeing from reporters on the ground. it's a shooking that's taken place at a church in southern land springs. the first thing a lot of viewers will think of when we say a shooting has taken place at a church is the horrendous shooting the, massacre that took place at ame emanuel church in

south carolina. those will be the initial comparisons. jim, you talked about churches needing to be secured. are you surprised that someone would have been given what this country has seen especially with churches being targeted in the past that such a large casualty toll has taken place? >> i'm surprised, we don't know if there was any security at the church and there could have been security when someone was murdered, you know, the security officer, off duty officer, retired cop or something could have been there and could have been killed as well. we don't know the scenario or if they had any security but all churches need security. public gatherings do and churches come under attack in my career i worked attacks on mosques, synagogues, churches, houses of worship of every denomination, bombs, fires, shootings. they are the target of evil because they do so much good. so people take out revenge and act on churches and they're looking for the crowd whether

it's a madman or even a terrorist they're looking for the crowd and they're looking to get mass killing. a vehicle like we saw in new york was terrorist inspired. malcolm and i talked about that on the air as well and this we don't know but there's lots of copycats from all these motivators out there. there's copy cats from terrorists and mad men, hate crimes, and hate has been active in the country so the motives are spread out why someone would want to kill parishioners at random in a holy place. >> jim, let me ask you about this quickly as well and malcolm, both of you. we have this updated information, again, this is now being passed on to us from our investigative producer tom winder who is saying a spokesperson for the wilson county texas sheriff's office is describing the incident as an active shooter incident. and i assume by that it means the situation is still very much going on, that the shooter, in

fact, has not been neutralized according to a spokesperson for the wilson county, texas, sheriff's office. we're certainly not getting more information on the casualties. speaking of a situation like that, jim, you know the terrain of the country better than anyone, certainly from a law enforcement perspective. we're talking about a town 30 miles away from san antonio, probably a larger city that we would assume has swat capabilities and other cape b89s. what kind of capabilities would we expect local law enforcement to have in a place like this, sutherland springs? >> they've got the capability. it's not the heart of a major city but i was the assistant special agent in charge of the dallas division for a number of years, i worked all over texas, they have capabilities. the department of public safety, the troopers, the texas rangers, certainly san antonio swat are very good and you have fbi, atf, regional tactical teams down

there that can muster up so they'll have plenty of help and plenty of patrol deputies and troopers and officers that have rifles. we call them swat light. everybody has their rifle and their vest. what may have happened is the shooter left the church, there was some type of pursuit as you had on an earlier report and he could have barricaded in somewhere else. maybe taking in hostages and it could be an active scene, an active shooter. or they lost him and don't know where he is so when it says it's active that's the most dangerous phase because either they have him and he's not stopped, he's still firing or they don't know where he is and he's still armed so any of those scenarios are possible when a sheriff says "active shooter." >> malcolm, in a situation like this you have an active shooter as is being described, someone who has demonstrated the willingness to kill, the capabilities to kill and as jim was saying could be on the run

or somewhere in the area, what is going through the mind of law enforcement tactically? are they bringing in resources from neighboring cities and towns for this situation? >> they are and when i went through swats sw-- swat you hav to go through what they call swatlight. everybody carries a helmet and a rifle. so when you get these scenarios where the guy is gunning and running, where he goes to a place, shoots, gets into a seek, moving to a second place and maybe he does a hostage barricade but she is till shooting from point to point and law enforcement is multijurisdictional. it's going to hole him up, stopping him is the number one briarty, getting him immobile,

whether that's getting him holed up into a place where you can surround and move as quickly as possible and engage him. >> jim, give me the perspective gip from law enforcement in terms of one the scene that has taken place inside the church, trying to get people out of there but then the parallel track of what is being described as an active shooter. >> the crime scene at the church will be mostly trauma medicine. that will take precedence over everything. there will be some officers who secure the scene but that's secondary to getting help to people who are wounded so all the fire department, paramedics, ambulance service, responders, medical responders are going to be allowed in there to take care of the people, transport the people, the patrol officers for sutherland p.d., the sheriff, they'll security the crime scene, if the shooter isn't there, that's static. where the real action will be, wherever the shooter may be. is he a few blocks away?

a few miles away? is he holed up as malcolm was discussing? is he holding other people. does he have a driver? is it more than one guy? we don't even know that yet but a person who is getting away, trying to get away, maybe trying to kill more people, he could still be on a suicide mission but he may be trying to just kill more people or he may be trying to escape, we've seen those scenarios as well. we don't quite know "e.t.." we don't even know if it's just one guy yet. >> i want to make that point and emphasize it because as this information is coming in we have to be careful. we are reporting what we are being told from the wilson county texas sheriff office, a spokesperson who described this as an active shooter, other affiliates and local stations including ksa 12, abc affiliate, is reporting that, in fact, the man who opened fire in the church in sutherland springs is dead and no more active threat

according to their verified twitter account so we want to put that information out there because as you can imagine it's a fluid situation, malcolm as we were talking earlier, the first fear a lot of people are going to have in their mind is was this politically motivated, was this religiously motivated? what can you discern? what is your initial analysis from looking at the target that is going to be key pieces of if investigation going forward as they try to establish and determine a motivation here? >> well, right now at this point this is so early we can't determine anything other than the fact that a person with a firearm walked into a venue that was essentially a fish bowl and decided to take the lives of multiple persons. even the target itself, the church, doesn't tell us whether it's politically motivated, emotionally disturbed person or whether it was personally motivated, we've seen gang shootings in churches. so for the most part we won't

know until we know something about the shooter himself. you can tell quite a bit about the types of weapons and tactics they use but until we know firsthand what happened in there, you'll probably get that in another couple of hours, we can't kel whether it was political motivation or someone just disgruntled or having a family problem or like i said an organized group that decided to taken a act of violence out on a group of parishioners. >> one thing we are able to confirm is, in fact, that the shooter has been taken down. that the shooting obviously has ended but the shooter himself as we understand has been taken down. we're awaiting on clarification whether or not that means the shooter was killed, whether he took his own life, whether he was killed as a result of engagement by police or security that may have been private security, perhaps it could have been on the ground. what we know and again information that we are getting from multiple news organizations including the associated press

and they're attributing this information to the wilson county sheriff joe tackette saying the shooter hasn been taken down. it suspect known how many people were killed or wounded. we know right now that obviously there were casualties there, many are being airlifted to nearby hospitals. we're talking about a small town here, malcolm, sutherland springs, i understand is about a community of about 400 people 30 miles of san antonio. what are the resources in a city or town like that? they're probably going to need help? >> they're going to be small. i lived in a small town in texas. there are to large military hospitals and they have the resources of the county police, local police, state police every alcohol, tobacco, firearms agent, every forest ranger who

is armed, every one of those jurisdiction there is will flow into this area to see what support they can give and on the basis of what they determine the motivation of the shoot willing determine who will take over primary investigative responsibility and jim knows well as an fbi guy that often times the bureau takes over operations to give the local forces relief because they have been been beleaguered in the first hour. >> jim, quickly, who takes the lead in a situation in the immediate aftermath. we know the fbi and atf are rolling to the scene but you're dealing with county and local law enforcement as well. >> well, this jurisdiction there, the sutherland 3d would have the ticket, as we say because it's a murder in their town. absent federal jurisdiction, as federal officers we come to help because law enforcement is a tight group and everybody shows up and when you have a case like

this you have crimes that come under jurisdiction of state authorities besides federal authorities, you have all kinds of federal crimes occur also usually so everybody is coming but the ticket is held by the local p.d. >> jim, i want to interrupt you quickly while you are talking, we are now getting live pictures. these are the first images that we are getting, aerial pictures of that deadly shooting that has taken place outside -- at a church in sutherland springs, texas. go ahead and finish that thought but i wanted to let our viewers know they are looking at live pictures of the aerial coverage. go ahead. >> well, if sutherland springs is inside the city limit of sutherland springs and the p.d. has the case. if it's outside the city limit the county sheriff does. either way, they'll get help from the state troopers, the texas rangers, the plain clothed unit of the texas department of public safety. the department of public safety is their state troopers, their

uniformed troopers. they will be there in force and there will be plenty of agents and these agents, they can help the sheriff or the p.d. work a crime scene sewly, gather the evidence, run the intelligence and it gets picked back to guys like in malcolm's world the intelligence analysts too, law enforcement and government intelligence and even military intelligence to tell anything they know about the guy. and it may be unrelated to anything they're tracking like terrorism, it could be just a madman but it bounces off those intelligence places, all those great analysts that help law enforcement so much and they dig it out once you have the guy's identity they dig out his history, his life and we'll see search warrants at his house later today and his car and everything has to be checked to see if he left explosives. the normal thing in these horrific murders that are all too routine for us, ay momanaym.

you remember aurora, colorado, when the guy shot up the theater and booby trapped his apartment with all kinds of bombs so it's routine, that has to be done as well. >> malcolm, when we look at these live pictures we're getting, we're getting a sense of the space we're talking about here, probably a little bit bigger than one initially thought in terms of the size of the church, the open space around it. what is your thinking about it when you're looking at that image in terms of the potential challenge this poses for law enforcement as they have to canvas this area to identify where the shooter was and trying to save people's lives. >> that's a very typical texas environment. you see this -- if that's the building in the center, it's like a large scale quonset hut pre-fab building but you can see the area around it is just lots of blank space and when they get in there, they'll go in and first cut off the roads and

intersections. go ahead. >> sorry, malcolm, i'm going ask you to stick with us one second because we have on the phone wilson county commissioner albert gamez. sir, can you tell us what has happened? >> well, i don't know all the details yet. i haven't talked to the sheriff but what i'm hearing is that there was one shooter that came in and started shooting inside that little church and so far numbers are changing at this time maybe close to 24 deceased 24 or 20 injured. that's all the information i have right now. >> mr. gamez, you are saying 24 deceased, that number hasn't been confirmed, is that correct? >> that hasn't been confirmed but that's close to it. there are a lot of fatalities. >> and can you tell us, sir, where are you standing in

relation to the church in this scene? >> i'm in front of the church. >> describe for us what you are seeing? >> i see a lot of law enforcements and a lot of ems. i mean, you name it, they're all here right now. >> can you tell us a little bit about what happened, how long was the shooter shooting for inside the church, do you know anything? >> nothing like that. nothing like that. all i know is that once the shooting stopped i think the deputies were in pursuit of the suspect, they went all the way to gal law pay county and i think what i've been -- guadalupe county, i've been hearing -- i don't know if they shot him or if he shot himself but the shooter is deceased. >> sir, is it your understanding that the shooter managed to flee the scene in the church and was shot at another location. >> that's what they're telling me, yes. uh-huh. >> what can you tell us about this church, the pediatricianer

ins there, the service taking place? >> oh, man, it's a small community, man. it's a real small community. you'd never think in the world that something could happen like this. it's sad. it's really sad. >> i get a sense sir just from hearing the tone in your voice that this is a difficult situation. do you feel that the community right now -- is there any potential threat out there besides what this shooter had just done in that church? >> not really. i don't think so but i don't know until they investigate the shooter, who he was, that's what they've got 20 find out first from law enforce. >> you don't believe there were multiple shooters? this was the act of just one shooter. >> no, just one, uh-huh. >> are you able to tell us anything about the victims, who they might be and who attended that church? >> no, they're releasing nothing yet but as soon as i find out

something i'll let y'all know. >> okay, do you have a sense of the timeline of when this may have begun, sir? >> i have the timeline. >> okay, albert gamez, commissioner for wilson county in texas. mr. gamez, appreciate your time in informing us. >> thank you, bye. >> let's bring in malcolm nance and jim cavanaugh once again and malcolm i apologize for cutting you off but we're getting that information important from the commissioner and as you heard him say, again, this is information he is not confirming but he is saying with a certain degree of confidence that there are multiple people dead. he said that number is close to 24 though that number could obviously fluctuate as well. he emphasized that 24 people have been injured and one of the things that i think was extremely interesting to learn is that the shooter, the suspect, managed to flee the scene and was taken down in guadalupe county. what does that tell you about how that situation unfolded,

malcolm? >> well, that tells me that this is -- again, this is texas so the way you have to move around there is by vehicle. you're not going to want to do that on foot. it's a very wide, broad country so obviously the suspect jumped into a vehicle. decided to escape and depart the scene and that's where we had the reports of a high-speed cha chase. the only question is how did it end? did he come up on a roadblock and was engaged? did he pull over and shoot himself? that will unfold. more importantly, that community has just suffered a massive disaster. as you can see it's remote, 30 miles from san antonio but it may as well be on the other side of the world when you're talking about these great distances of west texas country, south texas country. and you can see the resources that have to flow down there. they're going to flow a little slower than in a big city. >> let me read this tweet we have gotten in from texas, governor greg abbot.

he tweeted this a short while ago. the governor saying "our prays are with all of those who were harmed by this evil act, our thanks to law enforcement for their response, more details from dps soon." we'll have more information on that as that becomes available. jim i'm going to ask you the same question i was asking malcolm nance a short time ago. when you look at the air i can't tell footage you get a sense of the space, the size of the church. are you surprised at all that after being able to wreak the kind of carnage this shooter did that he was able to get away and ultimately receive the scene of the shooting? >> not surprised. a quiet sunday morning any church is quiet, the streets are quiet. if you come in there with any kind of firepower, long gun, handguns, you start shooting people inside, they're trapped inside and they hadn't planned for security then they're just

mowed down and then the shooter can just get out and get in his car or truck and just speed away and within a couple minutes on the roads in southern texas like that you're away from it and when the reports come in to 911, patrol cars are responding but there may be no description. as a uniformed officer i've passed shooters on the way to scenes because you don't a description of the car. you don't know who it is, you're passing many cars going to the scene of the crime and he could very well be passing deputies and city police and state troopers responding as he's driving away but someone likely gave a description. that got out on the air and this they got him located or he could have been traveling and still shooting people and reports coming into 911 and they located his car. whether he was shot by officers or shot himself or crashed and got killed is yet to be seen and the motives are many but the

tragedy is the same regardless of the motive. >> talk to us jim in a situation like this where the shooting has taken place and as we have learned from the commissioner that the suspect was taken down or neutralized in another location. how fast of a response time would a small town like this have in terms of their law enforcement and their capabilities to put it out? certainly they'll probably put out as you mentioned a description of the suspect but that may have taken some time before they were able to find an eyewitness to get detailed information. >> that's a good point, ayman, when the 911 call comes in, patrol on a sunday, i mean, sunday is a day we all love but i can remember as a uniformed officer it's a day i used to worry about. i don't know why we always seem to have a lot of crimes even over the years on sunday but responding to crimes on sunday, the streets are open. even in a little town like that you'll have a lot of commerce going on during the week but on

sunday those roads are open and the patrolmen get there quick so once that 911 call comes in, those radio cars are quick on the way. now as you point out the description of the car we don't know how fast that could come in and that may take longer or it could come in on the first few calls, they could say the guy has got this pickup truck and so forth so they'll get there within a few minutes and especially if it's in the city limit of southeutherland spring. the patrol cars won't be hindered by traffic, it's a smaller community. they'll get there and be faced with a daunting task when they get there but it looks like it's settled down now and the killer is dead from what you've reported? >> malcolm, put this in context for us, we're talking about a town, southern land springs that as we heard from wilson county commissioner saying this is a very small community, a very tight-knit community. we've seen numbers fluctuate in

terms of 400 to 1,000 people. when you're talking about a church, the epitome of a soft target, fatalities more than a dozen according to the commissioner, this is a serious blow to the psyche of safety and security in a kmurnlt this small. >> absolutely. and you're talking about church on sunday. looking at the time around noon or 1:00 so that's the second-largest mass that you would have in a church and in very religious communities in texas, southern texas down there, people are very, very communal and to have that broken by an individual who comes in. as jim said, it would be nice to have security but you can't have security everywhere. and an individual can come in it could have been a church or a grocery store and you'll have the same result. the key here is that this shooter's job was to not only take life but to take away that

security and sense of sanctity from the individuals and the entire town of sutherland springs so it will be very interesting to see if he comes from that community, whether it was a beef, we'll have to see. >> malcolm nance, jim cavanaugh, i'll ask you both to stay with us. we have more information, we'll just take a quick break and we set when we come back, stay with us. lederhosen. so i just started poking around on ancestry. then, i decided to have my dna tested through ancestry dna. it turns out i'm scottish. so, i traded in my lederhosen for a kilt.

entire town of sutherland us. interesting to see if he comes

interesting to see if he comes welcome back, everyone, you're looking at live pictures there of sutherland springs, texas, where shortly this afternoon not too long time ago we got word of a shooting that has taken place at first baptist church there. we spoke a short while ago to wilson county commissioner albert gamez who gave us an update on the situation saying the shooter was in fact taken down. he also reported multiple fatalities somewhere in the vicinity of close to 24 though that number has not yet been

officially confirmed from law enforcement or any hospitals in the area. we know the shooting took place at the church but there was a pursuit of the suspect according to mr. gamez and the shooter was ultimately taken down in gatt lupe county. still with us -- joining us, actually, jim cavanaugh, malcolm nance, we also have with us clinton van zahn. but we want to bring in carrie metulla, an eyewitness who was working at a gas station nearby. carrie, thank you for joining us. walk us through what you heard and what you are seeing now. >> well, at about 11:30, we heard semiautomatic gunfire about -- right in the vicinity of the store. we're only about 50 yards away from this church. this is a very small community so everybody was very curious as to what was going on.

first responders came very quickly like within minutes there was fire trucks and ambulances and air life was headed this way and we just kept seeing more and more and more of that and that continued that continued on for about two hours, i guess. and right now i'm looking at texas officers coming in, entering the scene. very still, very much a perimeter around the area. i think they found the guy, or i guess they killed him. but this is still a very chaotic scene. everybody is still basically in shock. >> let me, kari, if i can ask you, you described the gunfire as semi automatic. were you able to get a sense the shooting was in burst, that the shooter may have stopped to reload or did you hear it continuously and that was it? >> we heard continuous fire. >> do you know how long that lasted for, roughly?

>> about ten seconds. >> ten seconds, okay. >> enough for us -- the clerk came in -- the other cashier came in and said somebody is shooting out here, it's really close. i went outside with her, and we still heard shots and came back inside, because we heard ricochet and didn't want to get hurt. >> were you able to tell if the shooting was taking place outside of the church, or did the shooter manage to go inside? >> i don't know. and i don't have a confirmed report on that, either. i actually have a couple of houses blocking my direct view. but i can see in between the buildings, and see the first responders and their lights and everything. and this has just been terrible. we've had congregation members gathering here in the parking lot, you know, telling us who has been injured and who has been killed. >> yeah, carrie, i can moimagin this is a difficult time for you. and we also know this is a close-knit community. tell us a little bit about what

life is like there and what do you know about the community and the church and the worshippers there. >> well, like you said, it's a very small community. everybody knows everybody. most of the people grew up here. and, you know, third generation, fourth generation families are here. this particular church is the only food pantry for this town. we're so small, we don't even have a fire department. you know, everybody is just so related and close to each other, and we're hearing names of some of the victims, and it's just tragic. this is devastating. >> carrie, i hate to ask you this, but did you know anyone who attended that church? >> i know a couple of the people that attended that church. luckily, god intervened, and several of my friends that i -- that normally go there on a sunday morning, they went to a different church this morning.

so praise god, some people are still safe. others are not so safe. >> so tell us on a sunday morning what this town would have been like. what would we have been seeing in this church today? >> you would have seen a full parking lot. you would have seen children playing out in front of the grassy area before services. you would have seen people buying tacos and getting their coffee and going to church or getting their paper and going home. this is a sleepy little town. we don't have a lot of drama around here. there's a lot of retired and farming community. very quiet, texas little town. >> i can tell that obviously this is very emotional for you, carrie. and it's a question that i asked one of our guests earlier. but in a community that is so tight knit, so small, where everyone knows everyone and second and third generations, when you hear of this news, when you hear of this mass shooting,

what does this -- how is this, do you think, going to change your community? >> it's really going to change the community. there's -- you know, like i said, people that have lived here their whole lives, and they're just suddenly gone. and in such a tragic manner. and everybody is going to lock their doors now. we don't always lock our doors out here. everybody is going to lock their doors. they're going to bring their car keys in the house. they're going to probably keep a rifle by their bed, just in case somebody decides to copy cat. i mean, this is not the way we think and we live out here. this is a quiet area. we take care of our family members. we take care of our community. and we help each other out. this is not who we are. this is just so shocking and devastating, that it's -- it's unconscionable this took place. >> i know that you talked about the community there. had you ever experienced anything remotely similar to

this? is the community a safe community? is there -- is there known to be crime of any kind? >> the crime in this area is real petty. you know, little stuff like break-ins and things of that nature. stealing stupid stuff. but nobody really ever gets hurt out here. >> yeah. >> and this is, like i said, a quiet town. you know, people go to work, they come home. you know, drink a couple beers, watch the news and go to bed. >> and let me go back to what you saw earlier this morning. you're describing the gunfire as semiautomatic. are you familiar with guns? how did you know it was a semiautomatic weapon? >> because it was rapid-fire. it was rapid-fire. boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. and you could hear there was impact. and there was ricochet, too. so i mean, i can't -- i can't 100% --

>> right. >> -- say i know this, because i didn't actually see it with my eyes. this is what i heard 50 yards away. and we keep getting more and more reports from first responders that come into the store, and from congregation members that are coming to give us updates on our friends and loved ones. >> did you and the other staff at the gas station there take shelter immediately as you heard the gunfire erupt? >> well, curiosity got the cat. we went out and looked first. and then we heard the ricochet, and ran back inside. at first we thought somebody was target shooting in their backyard. also illegal. but, you know, not this. we found out what this was, it was just -- kind of put us in shock a little bit. >> and right now, give us the sense of what this scene is like there. is it a chaotic scene? are you seeing people being treated? or is it somewhat of a calm scene?

>> right now, it looks like they've got most of the critical victims already to hospitals. it's calming down a little bit. i haven't seen air life for about 30 minutes or so. we still have news crews up in the sky and on the ground. and the texas eps is here, and it looks like they're closing off the street. but there are still people parked along the highway, and walking to the church area to find out conditions of family members and friends. it's still very much a raw scene. but it looks like it's calming down a little bit. >> carrie, were you at all -- auto ven have you spoken to law enforcement? >> no. i think they are still trying to get as much information as they can at the scene, with the people that were there.

but -- here some more ambulances and stuff. >> i noticed, carrie, you said this is a community that leaves the people, the folks down there leave their front doors unlocked. tell us a little bit about this church. do you think the church had any security? do you think there might be security camera footage? >> no, probably not. it's a small baptist church. it's an older building. you know, i don't know that they would have security cameras. do you know if the church had any personnel, the nature of what has happened across the country? >> we have a lot of volunteer firemen, ems. also lots of veterans, combat veterans in this area. and they typically jump to the

occasion and they stepped in. they were immediately patrolling the streets and helping first responders with victims and things of that nature. that's just what we do out here. >> are you at all able to see, carrie, the screen? are you able to see msnbc? we have a live aerial picture of the church from above. and i'm curious to get a sense of where you are in relation to the church. >> we at the vp store, the gas station. and that's about 50 yards to the west of the church. >> of the church. okay. and i want to again just go back to this point about the community. because obviously a lot of people immediately are going to be looking at this and trying to make sense. there's always the question of why something like this happened. and obviously we don't know anything about this shooter yet. we don't know anything about the motivations. but how do you explain something like this on a morning like this, carrie? >> a combination of devastation

and -- it's asinine. there is no reason for it. it's -- it's unconscionable. i mean, why? why would somebody do something like this? and to a congregation that's just there to worship? they're not hurting anybody. it doesn't make any sense. it's just crazy. >> can you tell us a little bit more about the community, the demographics of it? i know you said there were a lot of combat veterans there, a lot of second and third generation. is it a mixed community? or different races? >> sure. you know, we're a melting pot out here. you know. we've got all kinds of people out here. and, you know, nobody really cares about that. we all help each other. and work together and live together. and, you know, it's a small community, pretty much everybody knows everybody's name or at least who they're related to or married to. you know, it's