and -- it's asinine. there is no reason for it. it's -- it's unconscionable. i mean, why? why would somebody do something like this? and to a congregation that's just there to worship? they're not hurting anybody. it doesn't make any sense. it's just crazy. >> can you tell us a little bit more about the community, the demographics of it? i know you said there were a lot of combat veterans there, a lot of second and third generation. is it a mixed community? or different races? >> sure. you know, we're a melting pot out here. you know. we've got all kinds of people out here. and, you know, nobody really cares about that. we all help each other. and work together and live together. and, you know, it's a small community, pretty much everybody knows everybody's name or at least who they're related to or married to. you know, it's -- it's pretty

close. so this is -- this has been hard. >> yeah, i can only imagine the feelings and emotions you're going through and what a community you're describing for us. it looks like an absolutely beautiful day in terms of what we're able to see here and in terms of how that all now has changed as a result of this deadly massacre at the first baptist church? southerland springs. have you thought about, carrie, how this changes everything? how -- you know, in the wake of mass shootings that have happened in other parts of the country, did you ever think that it would happen on the doorstep of your own community? >> absolutely not. absolutely not. i never thought it would happen here. i mean, this is something that takes place in a big city. you know -- i would never have thought it would have taken place here. i mean, this is just -- it's too tight a community.

it doesn't make any sense. >> carrie matula, eyewitness, what she witnessed this morning and what she heard. carrie, thank you very much for joining us. i know this has been an extremely difficult day for you and the community. but thank you very much for your time. >> no problem. thank you. all right. i'm going to hand it over to my colleague, yasmin, picking it up at this point. >> incredibly tragic time in that town. let's bring you up to date as to what's happening in texas. going to sutherland springs, texas, a horrific shooting at a church there. multiple fatalities, including children. just incredibly heart breaking to hear that. the shooter killed after chased by police. witnesses describing seeing a man walking into the first baptist church at 11:30 a.m. local time. and opening fire on people inside of that church. federal investigators are heading to the scene as we speak. the statement just out from texas attorney general, ken.

the thoughts and prayers of all texans are with the people of sutherland springs as tragic reports come out of first baptist church. my office stands ready to assist local law enforcement as needed. that's also from attorney general ken packs zon. kim cavanaugh joins us now. the major question here in the last 45 minutes or so is why. why something like this would happen. what was the motive of the shooter walking into this church in sutherland, texas, and opening fire on people that were just worshipping and killing multiple people, including children. has a lot of people scratching their head across this country now as they watch this coverage. how do investigators get down to that. how do they figure that out. they go right to the shooter. >> who is this guy, why would he do this. then you start looking at the people who were attacked.

unfortunately, in church shootings and houses of worship, oftentimes, motive is hatred, the attacks on jewish communities, attacks on mosques, attacks on christians. now that said, there's other motives, madmen, people kicked out of churches. people who have personal grudges against the congregants, people who are mostly disturbed and their motive makes no sense, but they want to attack the congregation. of course, there's also terror. terror can be a motive. like from an organized terror group or inspired actor. so the motives are wide open here. we don't quite know. but we've had a lot of shootings over the years. and attacks and bombings. and arsons at churches. and the motives often were hurt. >> i want to read a statement, jim, from the attorney general,

ken paxton. i have it in front of me. he says the thoughts and prayers of all texans are with the people of sutherland springs as tragic reports come out of first baptist church. my office stands ready to assist local law enforcement as needed. please join angela and me as we pray for those impacted by this horrific shooting. jim, how does this change the security standpoint at religious communities around the country as we see more tragic scenes like this, more and more. i can't help but think back to the emmanuel a.m.e. church shooting in charleston, south carolina, that i covered years ago and now this. you see he this more and more. there has got to be a question in both federal and local authorities in terms of how we change security measures at places of worship like this one. >> well, you know, i go back to 2007. i remember the case distinctly. a shooter went into a church in colorado and started shooting the place up and then got a vehicle and traveled to another church some 60 miles away and

tried to shoot that church up too. and they had a security officer in there. and she shot him. and she stopped him. and that was 2007. and there's a lot of shootings at houses of worship. any denomination. the sikh temple in wisconsin, where, you know, a neo nazi killed six people. jewish community centers. people because of their faith. so houses of worship should always have some kind of security. i think the days long past where we should even think about that. it's not up to the federal government, the state government, even, or local. it's up to the community of the congregants themselves to have some people outside, some policemen that they hire. some members of the church who are policemen. some security officers that can be outside. you know, i -- all too often

these things turn up, where a guy, you know, would cross band liras and bulletproof vests and handguns comes walking across the parking lot and goes into a church or a business or a school. >> yeah. >> and, you know, if that can happen to your facility, you don't have any security at all. and you should start from the premise of could that happen to my community. to my business, to my church. could that happen. and if it could, then you need to make definite steps to change it. >> well, it's certainly a sad day when you think about instilling security measures at a place of worship that people go to to find solace and security to rebuild, and then suddenly we're having to arm people at these places of worship to protect against tragedies like the one we're seeing today. it is a very sad day and i think we can all agree on that. jim, stand by. i want to turn now to our telemundo reporter standing by at the scene for us. bring us up to date on what you're seeing on the ground

there. >> reporter: well, i can tell you, i'm on my way to the small community. it's about 40 miles east of san antonio. families live there, like we were hearing. these are families that know each other. so you can just imagine the shock about this whole tragic incident. and, you know, these small communities, it's an area where families live, escaping the big city. san antonio is the big city. so you have all of these families who are living there, trying to escape the problems from the big city, the crime. you name it. so these people are living there, and you can just imagine the shock that all this happens on a sunday morning. >> i actually want to read president trump's tweet. he just sent out a tweet that i want to read for you. do we have that, guys? here it is on your screen. reads, may god be people of sutherland springs, texas. i am monitoring the situation from japan. president trump abroad for the next 12 days, dealing with the situation in japan, going --

visiting china, as well, dealing with the situation in north korea. also going to the philippines. so certainly a lot to take in for the president overseas. but hearing from him about this incredible tragedy here in texas. while i still have you, talk to me about the community there. what type of community is this? what more do you know about the community and what they've dealt with? >> reporter: okay. so this area here is full of small communities like this one. not the only one. you have others like florenceville, laverna. these communities are very close-knit. they know each other. they have been there for generations. we also have the typical person who lives in san antonio, and just wants to raise a family on this side of town. like i said, trying to escape crime, violence, just the problems, traffic, and so all these people bring their kids over here to raise a family and for this to happen, it's all a big shock. i can tell you that we've been here before, we've covered stories in the area. and when situations like this

come around, it's not easy for them. it's certainly a shock. i was just driving here to location, and i can tell you, the view, you can see the cattle, you can see -- you can see just basically the haystacks. it's a very rural area. >> is this a religious community? and has there been any sort of strife that you've known of in this community that would motivate someone to act out in this way? >> reporter: honestly, it is. it seems to be a very religious area. i mean, we were hearing from one of the neighbors. most people attend one church. they know each other. and it's the only food pantry they have. so when we talk about how big the community, it really is small. and chances are that they now know who some of the victims are. and i haven't heard of any prior incidents to speak about retaliation. this is the first time that we hear an incident of this

magnitude happening there. and i can tell you, i'm about eight minutes -- it's just -- even to us, while we cover some stories out here, this is, in my time here with telemundo, this is the first time i hear something like this happening. >> stand by for us. i want to read more tweets i'm getting in from senator ted cruz, saying people call harmed in sutherland springs in our prayers, and grateful for our first responders on the scene. what are you hearing from your sources on the ground with regards to witnesses and what they saw at that church? are you hearing anything from people on the ground there in regards to what they saw, victims, who may have been affected, that sort of thing? >> reporter: well, the scene is very active, i can tell you that. i am about seven minutes away from location. i have to do some live shots once i get there. but hearing from my photographer, you know, the scene is very raw. it's very early in the investigation to talk about fatalities and injured people. and the count might go up.

so to speak about death and the death count, it is too early in the day. once i get there, i can promise you to keep you updated with what we hear and once we stick to officials on the ground. >> how many services per day this type of church has? is this something that you think possibly from knowing this community that the shooter may have had knowledge of? that he was aware of what was taking place in this church during the time in which he walked in at 11:30 a.m. or so, according to witnesses there? >> reporter: honestly, i don't have that information regarding to the services they offer. but i can tell you that, you know, all these people go there. that's their reunion place every sunday. even to get together with friends, people they know, from school. so this is just a gathering place for them every sunday. and again, this came out of nowhere for them. i can tell you that it's a shock. i see here -- here on the

highway, i can tell you that it just seems quiet, but obviously as we go deeper into the scene, i'm assured we'll see everything, how it's guarded off, and the movement that's happening as we speak. >> and i want to read a statement from governor abbott right now. and it reads, while the details of this horrific act are still under investigation, cecilia and i want to send our sincere thoughts and act. i want to thank law enforcement for their response and ask all texans pray for the sutherland springs community. we're hearing reports of children being among the victims at this church. what more are you learning about that? >> reporter: yeah, i mean, we're talking about maybe some children being possibly injured. you know, this is a place where it's a family service, so children are there. to know how many of them are injured or are struck by a bullet, it would be hard for us to tell. there is a sort of a keep quiet right now. they don't want to give out as

much information. i mean, we have people here at our assignment desk talking to them and keeping us posted. but they don't want to release much information. and i can imagine it's just so that, you know, to keep the community at peace while they're starting to identify who these people are. they don't want to get too much information out to prevent a chaos outside the church. and obviously, all this information will come about in the next couple hours. it's very early. we're talking about just a couple hours that this happened. and right now as we speak, they're in the process of identifying all the people. but i can tell you that we're going to be there, and we're going to bring you the latest as soon as we hear the names of the victims and who these people were. >> we certainly appreciate you joining us. we're definitely going to be checking back in with you when you do arrive at that scene. please keep us updated as to what you learn. our reporter from telemundo, appreciate it. if you're just joining us, we want to reset what we know so

far. we're following a shooting happening in sutherland springs, texas, 40 miles east of san antonio, texas. a horrific shooting at a church. we are hearing reports of multiple fatalities, including the shooter, who was killed after a chase by police. witnesses describing seeing a man walking into the church at 11:30 a.m. local time and opening fire on the congregants in that church. we're also hearing reports that children are among the victims. an incredibly tragic day. i want to bring in my colleague, who has been covering this the last hour or so back into the conversation. you know, you hear about this happening in a community like this, at a church. and we've been covering this, which is awful to say. but you and i having been in this business for a while, you cover this. and then you hear about kids. >> yeah. and -- >> and it completely -- exactly. >> this is what we're hearing from one of the eye-witnesses, working at a gas station nearby. says it's the kind of community where everyone knows everyone's

name. people don't lock doors of their houses. she knew people who attended that church and immediately called them. but by the grace of god, attended a different church. so it gives you a sense of the kind of community that we're dealing with. and who are suffering as a result of this tragedy. let's cross over now to wilson county commissioner, albert gamess. thank you for joining us. i know there are a lot of moving pieces to this right now. what can you tell us about what you've learned since we have spoken last about this deadly shooting? all right. seems like we have lost mr. gamez. we had spoken to him earlier in the day, and he was describing for us some of those initial scenes of what the emergency responders, as well as the police officers, law enforcement, were seeing. he described for us there were multiple fatalities, as well as multiple casualties.

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at the end of your first year. only from discover. welcome back, everybody. if you're just joining us, we're following breaking news out of sutherland springs, texas. want to bring you up to date as to what we know so far. sutherland springs, texas, 40 miles east of san antonio, where a church shooting has taken place. we are hearing multiple reports of fatalities, including the shooter who was killed after a chase by police there. witnesses are describing seeing a man walking into the church at 11:30 a.m. local time, and opening fire at the congregants there. police reporting children are among those victims. the numbers, they are changing. as you know, this is a developing story so the numbers keep changing so we want to keep it general and say multiple victims until we get those exact numbers from authorities there. we do know that the shooter is dead, as we said. so this is now a developing investigation.

we also have a tweet from the president who is overseas right now on the first leg of his 12-day tour abroad in asia. and he says may god be with the people of sutherland springs, texas. the fbi and law enforcement are on the scene. i am monitoring this situation from japan. so certainly a developing situation there. investigators there. so we're trying to get a handle on the motive of this shooter and figure out why someone would walk into a church on a sunday morning and kill so many victims, including children. >> yeah, let's bring into the conversation clint van zandt, and msnbc contributor and jim cavanaugh, retired special agent in charge at the atf. clint, let me begin with you and pick up on that question that yasmin was asking, which is why? and i know that it's obviously early on. but if you are an investigator and you are now tasked with compositing a profile of this heinous crime, why?

>> yeah. there's a number of reachsons investigators are going to look at. one of the reasons atf will be on the scene. they'll see if there is any possibility of terrorism. they want to see if it could be a hate crime. you talked earlier about the shooting that took place in charleston. realize just in september 27 of this year, there was a church shooting in tennessee, where a man did something similar. walked in, shot someone outside the church, then walked in. so the fbi, atf, local police, rangers, everybody there will be trying to say, could it be an international incident? is it an incident of a hate crime, is there a mentally disturbed individual? is it a domestic case? we don't know right now. they'll have those answers quickly as they identify. let me pick up another topic you were talking about. which is security within a church. having grown up in a baptist church myself, i know there's a sunday school, there's a main service during the morning

that's over around noon, 12:30. then there's the sunday nighttime. so this individual walked at 11:30, which is the prime time. that's when everyone in this town of plus or minus 500 is going to be seated there. but over the years, i mean, the church i attend now, there are at least two armed congregants who attend the service, who are connected by radio, who are there to provide security. now, can this little town have someone there? well, a lot of times, it's going to be an off-duty law enforcement officer, it's going to be a military veteran who has a pistol permit to carry a weapon. but more and more today, we are seeing houses of worship, no matter what their religion, have at least a congregant who belongs there who carries a weapon, if not someone hired to do that. it's a terrible indictment of our country. and yet it's also a reality that our schools, our churches -- there's no place that we can put

our hands up and say, we are safe at this location. unfortunately. because terrorism, because madness can follow us anywhere. >> you know, clint, i'm curious as to what you bring up with regard to the church you attend and having security there. you don't want have to tell us where you live or what church you go to. but is it in a big city, because i can only imagine in a small town like this, 40 miles east of san antonio, they don't necessarily think they're going to be the focus of an attack like this, of a shooter coming into their local church and opening fire. this isn't necessarily something that's in their sphere as it would be maybe in a larger city. >> no, that's true. i don't -- you know, we've seen enough mass shootings in this country. we've seen enough shootings in houses of worship that we realize that any place could, in fact, be a target. and i think there is a feeling, you know, for -- like the pastor of this church, i'm told, was

out of town at the time the shooting took place. his daughter was in the church, but supposedly he may have been out of town at the time, traveling on business or whatever. but i think today you're going to see more and more houses of worship, where you have one or more individuals who are carrying weapons. so, you know, you're going to find any off-duty law enforcement officer. city, county, state, federal. they are going to carry a weapon off-duty. if they're a congregant, they're going to be part of that. but in churches, many times today, different sizes, it's far more organized. you have individuals who carry weapons, they go through courses that teach them shoot, no shoot within that environment. they have earpieces, they have radios. they can talk to each other. they lock certain doors. once the service starts. so there's only one way in and one way out. these are just unfortunately common sense things that we have to do. and with the fbi on the scene

right now, part of what they're doing is helping to assemble the evidence. they'll have evidence collection teams that will be looking for, you know, the weapon, the rounds, recovered rounds, the cartridges that will be there. trying to help the local police and authorities put together an understanding of who did this, how did they do it, and, again, like every mass shooting we've looked at in the last month, last year, the last ten years, it's did anyone else know this person was going to do it? did anybody else help him or participate? that's what we're trying to understand. >> and as we continue to get more resources in and around the church in terms of being able to cover this event, you're seeing new pictures we're receiving. these are obviously from the street level in the vicinity around the church. you can see the multiple layers of core donees set up by the police. obviously this is still very much an active crime scene. police will be going through a lot of the evidence there as

they continue also perhaps to recover bodies and witnesses. the shot still a little shaky. we also have the aerial pictures above that gives you a sense of how big of an area we are talking about here in this community. malcolm, let me bring you into this conversation quickly. i want to go back to a point an eyewitness told us about when i interviewed her. she said she described the shooting as having lasted really a short amount of time. she said almost -- it was about ten seconds. but she described it as semi automatic gunfire. you know weaponry very well. certainly a lot better than i do. what were you able to ascertain from her description of this account in that she also said that it was not -- there weren't several bursts that would suggest perhaps that the gunman was reloading, but, in fact, one continuous burst of gunfire. >> right. she said that it was just one long continuous stream. you know, depending on her proximity, it could have been a handgun.

but most people in texas have a pretty good idea of what long rifles sound like. >> yeah. >> and that would tell me that somebody with a semiautomatic long rifle just went in there with the intent to shoot and they just fired until the magazine emptied and fled. could have been a handgun. could have been a handgun with an extended magazine, like a block with a .32 round magazine. we don't know. but for now what we do know is that, you know, this tragedy injured or killed a lot of people. and if it was a long rifle, you have a better chance of injuring and killing a lot more in a crowded environment like that, because the bullet goes through multiple people. so it may have been focused. it may have just been personal. we just don't know. there's just so much information. that's absent now. >> i want to actually play a sound bite, because we've been talking a lot about this community, and how an attack like this -- crime like this, can impact the psyche of the community. let me play the sound bite from carrie matula, a woman i spoke

to about what kind of community this is. take a listen. >> it's really going to change the community. there's -- you know, like i said, people that have lived here their whole lives, and they're just suddenly gone. and in such a tragic manner. and everybody is going to lock their doors now. we don't always lock our doors here. they're going to lock their doors, they're going to bring their car keys in the house. they're going to probably keep a rifle by their bed, just in case somebody decides to copy cat. i mean, this is not the way we think and we live out here. >> so clint, you know, we -- we've talked about this. you just raised the point about security at churches. it's not the way people live here, as you heard, carrie describe. when we look back at the places, so-called soft targets that have been, you know, attacked by mass shooters, movie theaters,

elementary schools, churches, shopping malls, how is it that in this day and age, there are still communities that are not doing what you said your church was doing, which is having armed security guards? >> you know, this is a small community, 500 people or so. as this guest just said that you had there, they don't lock their doors. i mean, you know, that takes some of us back 50 years ago when we didn't lock our doors or we left the car keys in our car. you know, a lot of us have had to put up with the changes in society, but there are towns where danger and disaster really have not walked the streets yet. and we still kind of live in this protective cloud of it will never happen here. and every day we find out in this country, and across the world, but in america, that it really can happen anywhere. but as malcolm was suggesting too, when you have this closed -- just like las vegas,

the shooting where you had that tight closed environment, where people were kind of ringed in and were shot by the shooter from the 32nd floor. and here someone walks in and shoots, knows he has everyone confined in that building. but, again, the soft target idea is that the likelihood of anybody being here with a gun to return fire is probably slim to none, in the shooter's mind. and unfortunately, whether you like the national rifle association -- >> if it's a technical rifle, military style rifle, can carry all kinds of ammunition in there, 30 rounds, 60 rounds, 100 rounds, however they want to load it. and just, you know, you're trapped inside the building. the shooter unloads on you, and, of course, made his escape to the next county north, guadeloupe county, where he was killed or killed himself or killed in a wreck, we don't know. but that's where he as apprehended. so he did the slaughter, he got in a vehicle and made it to the

first county north of wilson county, where the killing occurred. >> all right. clint van zandt, jim cavanaugh and malcolm nance, want you all to stand by. we are going to take a break, but we want to bring everybody up to date. we are following a shooting out of sutherland springs, texas, 40 miles east or so of san antonio, texas. multiple injuries there. hearing reports of that, along with multiple fatalities, as well. children among those victims. we are also hearing reports that the shooter is now dead after being chased by police there. of course, this is a developing story and we're staying on top of it for you. keep it here, everybody. we'll be right back. heart... your joints... or your digestion... so why wouldn't you take something for the most important part of you... your brain. with an ingredient originally found in jellyfish, prevagen is now the number one selling brain health supplement in drug stores nationwide.

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welcome back, everyone. we looking at live pictures there from sutherland springs, texas, where a single gunman walked into first baptist church there, opened fire as a service was taking place.

according to the wilson county, texas, commissioner's office, they were telling us a short while ago there were multiple fatalities, multiple casualties. did not put a number. but we are hearing reports of up to two dozen individuals killed, including children. that is the very latest information. as you can imagine, we're getting a lot of reaction coming in from across the country, including from president trump, who is overseas in japan at the moment. he tweeted a short while ago, may god be with the people of sutherland springs, texas. the fbi and law enforcement are on the scene. i am monitoring the situation. we have also heard from the u.s. representative to the united nations, nikki haley, as well as the speaker of the house, paul ryan. so a lot of reaction coming in to what has quickly emerged to be another deadly mass shooting in this country. >> speaker ryan saying reports out of texas are devastating, that people in sutherland springs need our prayers right now. want to go to former assistant director for counter intelligence at the fbi and all

the guests that have been joining us so far, we're asking this question, because it's the question that everybody that's watching wants to know. why? how does the -- where does the investigation start in order to answer this very question? >> well, it starts with the facts that we already know. and though it's very early, it's important to assess this. if the information we're getting is correct so far, this shooter fled the scene. why is that significant? it could potentially mean that it's less likely that this is islamic terrorism. where lately the instructions have been to martyr yourself. immediately after the attack. take out your weapons on the scene and get shot by police there. the fact that he fled is a slight potential indication he was not prepared to martyr himself. so we may not be looking at terrorism. second, as we assess motivation, it's important to remember the three categories of active shooter. first, first category, the shooter would have no connection at all to the target location.

it's just a random shooting, crime of opportunity, a door is open, a vulnerable congregation. he takes that door and opens it. second category. there is a direct connection to the target location. so we might be talking about a member of the congregation. a member of the church staff. someone who has a reason to be there. and then lastly, there's this kind of tangential dotted line connection to the target location. where maybe we're talking about the spouse of a congregant. maybe somebody approached the church for a benevolent contribution but didn't get it. someone upset with the church in some way. those are the three categories we're looking at. i key on what i do know. the guy fled, was shot or captured somewhere else and that could be potentially significant. >> talk to me about the role that social media plays in this. when i think about the emmanuel a.m.e. church shooting, we found out that dylann roof was doing a lot online and it pointed to his motivation in all of this. of course, he was not shot, and he did live and he was able to be interviewed by investigators

there. but talk to me about the role that social media plays in this, in figuring out that motivation that you just laid out for us. >> great question. because as we speak, i can guarantee you that law enforcement and prosecutors are huddled in an office, writing an affidavit for a search warrant for wherever this guy resides, all known prior locations, whatever it says on his drivers, they're headed there. the search will include computers, they'll do forensics. all devices. they'll check his communications. i'll tell you first, officer safety comes first on this. so we're talking about a tactical entry likely into his house, apartment, condo, wherever he resides, hotel room, on the possibility it could be booby trapped. but they're writing a search warrant now. they'll grab that computer. and we talk a lot about soft targets. churches are soft targets. but the softest target of all is the human mind. and if this is someone who got his ideas on social media or is somehow radicalized on social

media, this is an increasing trend we're seeing we need to deal with. >> this is a developing investigation, and we appreciate you joining us, hoping you'll stick around and stand by. i'm sure we're going to need your expertise later on in the hour. >> all right. also joining us now from texas, congressman vicente gonzalez. representative gonzalez, thank you very much for joining us. if you can, bring us up to speed on what you've been informed through your official channels as a representative. >> well, first of all, i would like to say that our hearts and prayers go out to the good people of sutherland springs and wilson county. it's definitely a tragedy in our community, and it's not something that we would have ever expected in that particular area or some place that people are paranoid in. we've got reports that 24 people are now deceased from this incident, and 20 people are injured. we won't have final numbers until probably a few more hours. we have communicated with the county officials. apparently the shooter was not

from the area. he was from outside of that area. i, as a person speaking prior, i don't suspect this being terrorism. i think this is some type of other incident having to do with the church or the community. i'm certainly concerned of all the publicity these incidents get across the country, and hopefully they don't incite other violence, just from, you know, the massive publicity that this little town, rural town in texas received. it tells you that it's happening regularly, and it's happening across the country, and i think we need to analyze this in congress and see what we need to do. since i arrived at congress this year, i've been talking about limiting magazine capacity in guns, and this is just another incident. probably the fourth of fifth this year that could have been -- if not prevented, certainly the damage would have diminished greatly if we had just made small changes to our gun laws that we have right now. >> and certainly, congressman, those are all very valid points

to raise. certainly worthy of a national discussion. let me follow up on a point that you brought up about the gunman. you said that you had heard he is from outside the area. what more can you tell us about the identity of the gunman? have law enforcement been able to confirm his identity? where he is from? what made you say that he is from outside the area? >> i was -- that report came through my staff. we've been in touch with some officials there in the county, where this occurred. and that's what we have been informed as of now, that the gunman is not part of that particular community. so it's just an interesting fact. >> absolutely. >> hopefully it is so -- preliminary. i just received this ten minutes ago. but it's something that i assumed law enforcement and forensic investigators will be taking close -- paying close attention to, and i'm certain we'll be doing a very thorough investigation. probably that has already begun now.

>> congressman, talk to us about what you know about this community and this church specifically. >> yes. well, it's a rural community. it's a very conservative community. it's a very faith area in my district. it's a very quiet, mostly farmers and ranchers and some folks that work out in the oil and gas patches. but very tranquil. very safe. this is certainly very, very odd to have something like this occur in one of our rural communities in my district. we're all in shock at this time. >> congressman, you talked about the issue of magazines, as a piece of legislation that you were interested in, at least in discussing. do you have any idea of what type of weapon was used in this shooting? >> i don't know yet. but it just follows along what we've seen in orlando, in san bernardino in california. what we saw a few weeks ago in las vegas. where you have just high magazine capacities that i think

if they were limited, people would still have gun ownership rights to those types of guns, but you would know that, hey, after eight bullets were shot, you know, the person would have to switch clips and they can be charged. and certainly it would limit -- it would have limited the fatalities and injuries of all of those events that i just mentioned. and i think it's something we need to pay close consideration to, and it's something i believe even the nra on the other extreme should take a look at and try to be reasonable and try to find ways to bring more safety to the american people. >> we had a former fbi profiler on earlier who said he was surprised that there wasn't already somebody armed inside of this church providing security, considering the atmosphere in which we live, and seeing so many houses of worship being targets these days. what's your reaction to that? >> well, you know, it's certainly sad that we've come to this time. where we need armed personnel in

our places of worship. and i guess that's the day and age we live in. we need to start thinking about that. you know, i'm just surprised it's a rural community -- i'm just surprised. i guess the church would be one place where this community would maybe leave the gun in their truck. but honestly speaking, i'm surprised there weren't people that were armed there in that church, within that community. just because i know that area. but it's a tragic situation. it's something that we need to start having a national conversation with. i think it crosses demographic lines. it crosses whether it's rural or urban. and it's across the country and something we need to have a -- a very serious national conversation about. >> congressman, i wanted to ask you about the nature of the community itself. you've described it as rural. conservative. >> conservative. >> tell us a little bit about the demographics of it. is it a mixed community? people from different backgrounds? different walks of life? >> it's a pretty white

anglo-saxon protestant community with a portion of minority -- of mexican-americans that live there. it's a relatively quiet place. very safe. well-known. you know, it's a very safe place to live and work and visit. this certainly -- what occurred today certainly doesn't fit the character of this community. >> are there a lot of churches in this town, congressman? >> well, you know, we have a lot of churches sprinkled through obviously the south and rural areas. so there's a few churches. enough to serve the community. >> would you call this a particularly religious community? >> i would think so. i would think that they're a pretty christian community. >> what more are you learning about this shooter in that regard? i know that you said that he was from outside of the community. but are you hearing anything else about the shooter? >> that's all i've heard.

>> the motivation? or if the shooter knew anybody inside of that church? >> at this point, we don't have any more information. i assume we'll be getting -- this will be developing here in the next hour or two and we'll have more information to share. >> and congressman, i know you have to run. let me ask you quickly, finally, and i only compare this to new york because it was the most recent incident that took place here in the country where multiple fatalities took place. officials were able to determine the identity of the attacker, that it was terrorism-related. are you at all surprised they have not yet done so in this incident where the shooter has been taken down, as you described, he is from outside of the area. and we haven't yet heard from officials the nature of the motivation or perhaps the identity of the shooter. >> well, i'm not surprised because of the setting. it's very different, you know, a small rural community in central texas. it's very different than a major

city like new york. so i'm certain that they're going to probably keep their cards close to their chest until they get enough information that they could make a solid public statement. so i'm not surprised by that at all. >> okay. all right. congressman vicente gonzalez from texas, i appreciate you, sir, taking the time out. and certainly hope to speak to you in the coming hours as we learn and certainly as you learn more information about what is taking place here. and our thoughts and prayers go out to everyone affected by this in your district and community. >> thank you. we appreciate that. >> i want to bring frank figliuze back into the conversation. you heard from the congressman there saying the shooter from what he's hearing is from outside of the community. how does that change your theory with regard -- if at all, with regard to motivation in those three categories that you set out for us? which was the shooter having zero connection to the church, having a direct connection or being the spouse or a friend or knowing someone inside of this

church. >> yeah. so if this initial reporting is correct, that he may have come in from outside the area, and, again, initial reporting is often wrong. but if that's true, then we may be looking at some kind of relationship to someone at the church. and this is conjecture. but very often in violence we see a domestic situation. a custodial or noncustodial parent. someone coming in perhaps with a beef with somebody in the congregation. we're hearing unfortunate reports of perhaps child casualties. maybe the focus might have been perhaps on the sunday school. so that's one theory. the other thing is, you know, churches post their service schedule online. this church has a website. so someone who wants to know when church is can look at the website, see the worship service times and hit at that time. so this is significant. the fact that he fled, the fact that he may have been from elsewhere tends to put me away from -- slightly away from islamic terrorism.

slightly more toward knowing someone in the church with some connection there. >> let me ask you this, frank. and it's the question i finished with the congressman. and that is about the responsive information we are getting. igetting. again, this is from the information we learn quickly from the nypd and the new york city governor and officials shortly after the attack took place here in new york city and earlier in the week, in the situation where we heard the congressman come out and clearly say that he doesn't believe from the information he is hearing through his staff and official channels that this attacker was from the area. he was from outside the area. why have we not heard yet from officials more about the identity of the shooter or anything to put the public's mind at ease, despite the fact that this is obviously a very horrific situation unfolding here? >> well, there's a significant difference in terms of media presence and all of that between the attacks in new york city, manhattan, and the attacks in a small town in texas. so you've got law enforcement

resolving this. they are preparing search up warrants. and there's far less leakage because there's far less media presence there. so i wouldn't read into anything that we're not getting a lot right now. they're gearing up and getting tactical teams ready somewhere, whether the address on the driver's license or car license plate comes back to, this is just going to have to unfold. now, the information that he's not from there is probably coming off of some driver's license information or license plate information. and the fact that people seem to be living away from terrorism may well be because they have the person in custody. they know who he is. and that the checks initially from the fbi, from the intelligence community, are already starting to come back, perhaps with negative results. >> do you think we're entering an age, frank, where security needs to sort of, i don't really know the phrase to use, but to step it up, even in small towns like this, when we see scenes like -- >> almost become

institutionalized. >> exactly. you see things that took place in vegas, you remember the chief of police in vegas saying, he learned their security measures by going overseas and seeing the way things were done there and then coming back and applying that to his police department in las vegas. do you think that needs to be sort of a federal mandate where security measures are in place to react to situations like this, because they are happening much more frequently? >> i think that it's time for a national discussion on how much and to what degree americans are truly prepared for security. at a higher level. now, the good news is that the u.s. department of homeland security, fbi, joint terrorism task forces, are out there every day preaching this to hotels, even churches, rental car agencies, what to look for, what to report. but it may be time to step it up to another level and talk about what your plan should look like. and sadly, churches should have security plans by their very nature, they are open, they are

vulnerable, and the mantra always taught, run, hide, fight. which is an excellent piece of advice, by the way, may not be exactly on point in an open area like and church. many pews, large congregation, running, hiding, fighting, not very easy to do in that environment. >> are you at all surprised at, frank, when we have talked so much about shootings, whether it is elementary schools, whether it is churches, like the emmanuel church in south carolina, that even a church in rural america as tranquil as the congressman was describing it to be, that in this day and age, with all the threats, terrorism, not terrorism-related, that there simply wasn't some kind of security measure put in place there? >> no, i think we are talking about true small town america. i am not taken aback by the fact that they may not have had security person designated there. that's not unusual for a small town, small church.

i'm telling you, though, that churches now need to get it in gear, need to have a plan in place, need to be thinking about this. and the plan needs to match the size of the church, the sophistication of the threat and risk around it, the environment with which it's in, the sophistication of the physical facility, how large is the complex. but a small church, 200, 500 members, 100 members, 50, needs to have a simple plan in place. but they need to have one. >> and that was something we heard as well from the eyewitness we spoke to earlier, carrie matula, who said to us, there were a lot of combat veterans there, a lot of people with firearms there, but at the same time, it was a very safe community. people left their doors open. >> you never think it's going to be you. >> and she said as well, this was obviously going to change the psyche of the community, things from here on out, as we have seen so many times in various cities across america. once they experience something like this, it changes the community forever. >> yeah. i want to circle back, frank, to motivation, which i think is important, because that's really what people want to know, but do

you think the fact that this is a small town, a small church, a tranquil community as ayman puts it, a place where people probably didn't lock their doors, the way people are explaining it to me, to us, does it seem as if this is more personal? >> yeah, that's where i'm leaning in these initial moments right now. yasmin, that's what i would be thinking. there's a connection to somebody in the church. but i also note, with the escape, you know, to liken this a little bit to bank robbery and planning a bank robbery. you've got someone who knows there's open highway ahead. and there's a freedom to escape here. so there may be some planning that went into this and the target presented itself as the place that he could most easily escape from. so that is a factor as well here. >> frank, we appreciate you joining us. standby, i know you'll be joining us again at the top of the hour. we are following a breaking news story out of sutherland springs, texas. stay with us. much more to come. life happens.

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good afternoon, everyone. i'm yasmin ya yo soouf yan -- yasouvian along with ayman mohyeldin. >> we are reporting that a shooter walked into a church in texas and opened fire. >> let's have a listen. >> it is really going to change the community. there's -- you know, like i said, people have lived here their whole lives. and they are just suddenly gone. and in such a tragic manner. and everybody's going to lock

their doors now. we don't always lock our doors out here, everybody is going to lock their doors, they're going to bring their car keys in the house, they're going to probably keep a rifle by their bed just in case somebody decides to copy cat. i mean, this is not the way we think and we live out here. >> we are hearing approximately 25 people are deceased. the shooter is among the deceased. we have no nature on the motivation of the shooting and no estimation on the number of injured so far. i want to bring our panel back into the conversation, clint van isn't a, jim cavanaugh and malcolm nance. jim, to you first, unbelievable number there, 25 people dead. what does that tell you? >> a determination by the shooter, preparation, most likely could have been done by a handgun, most likely a long gun, lots of