do what they do best. we pull together. we join hands. we lock arms and through the tears and through the sadness, we stand strong. oh, so strong. >> just hours into his overseas trip, president trump turns his attention back home where another mass shooting rips through an american community and leaves a nation grasping for answers. meanwhile, the political divisions the president seeks to bridge are deep. bob mueller is zeroing in on michael flynn with enough evidence now to bring criminal charges. nbc has the exclusive reporting on that. plus new investigations reveal yet more ties between russia and two of the president's top advisers, commerce secretary wilbur ross and the president's own son-in-law, jared kushner,

helping to funnel big mon nye twitter and facebook. monday, november 6th. good morning. we have political reporter for "the new york times," nick confessore, harold ford jr., former aide to the bush white house, elyse jordan and former fbi special agent clint watts. 26 people, ranging in age from 5 to 72 gunned down during sunday morning worship at their small-town church in sutherland spring, texas. 26-year-old man, dressed in all black, tactical gear, bulletproof vest, armed with an ar assault rifle, began firing into the church from outside. told he then entered the church and continued firing.

as the suspect tried to make a getaway, officials say a local resident grab add rifle, began firing, causing the gunman to drop his weapon and flee the scene. >> a short time later, as law enforcement responded, the suspect right at the wilson/guadalupe county line crashed out and was found deceased in his vehicle. at this time we don't know if it was a self-inflicted gunshot wound or was shot by the local resident who engaged him in gunfire. >> let's bring in msnbc's ayman mohyeldin. ayman? >> reporter: the gas station you just referenced, where the gunman parked his car shooting first outside the church and then working his way in. 26 people killed, ranging in

ages. two bodies recovered outside, 23 inside the church, some as young as 5 years old. we're hearing about the pastor, who was a guest pastor this week. he, along with his wife, killed, according to their 30-year-old son. absolutely devastating the community here. this is a very tight-knit community where everyone pretty much knew somebody who attended this church. we spoke to a worker here at the gas station, telling us that shortly after she heard the gunshots her first instinct was to call her friends and relatives that she knew attended this church as well. it gives you a sense in a city and town of 400 people, when you're talking about 26 people killed, how devastating it is to the psyche and safety of this community. interestingly enough it was also a member of this community who chased down the gunman and ultimately was able to save lives, according to law enforcement officials. that civilian now being praised as a hero. here is what he had to say. >> i just did what i thought i needed to do, which was -- they

said there was a shooting. i pursued and i just did what i thought was right thing. >> you know there were more weapons in that car? you possibly stopped him from killing other people. >> i didn't know that. >> reporter: guys, the question now is about the investigation is what the motivation that made this 26-year-old former military soldier at the u.s. air force drive 30 miles out of his hometown to come here to carry out this massacre? there are a lot of pieces to this puzzle. one theory that is emerging is the fact that this tech-savvy church, although it was small, was broadcasting and streaming its services on the web. that could have been a factor in both making the target more likely for the shooter but it is now a possible question for investigators as to whether or not yesterday's deadly shooting was captured on that streaming service. mika, joe, back to you guys. >> ayman, thank you.

we'll be going back to you throughout the day. multiple weapons were found in the gunman's vehicle. the suspect has been identified as 26-year-old devin patrick kelley from neighboring comal county. an air force spokeswoman said he was court-martialed in 2012 for assaulting his spouse and their child. he was confined for a year, reduced in rank and given a bad conduct discharge in 2014 that. raises immediate questions about how he might have been able to obtain a firearm. business insider says his violent history should have prevented him from purchasing a gun. according to cnn, he bought the weapon in april 2016, two years after he received a bad conduct discharge in 2014. the report, citing a law enforcement official, says when he filled out the background check paperwork he checked the box that said he did not have

any disqualifying criminal history. meanwhile, during a press briefing overnight with japanese prime minister shinzo abe, here how president trump responded. >> i think that mental health is the problem here. this was a very -- based on preliminary reports, very deranged individual, problems over a long period of time. we have a lot of mental health problems in our country, as do other countries, but this isn't a guns situation. i mean, we could go into it. it's a little bit soon to go into it. fortunately, somebody else had a gun shooting in the opposite direction. otherwise, as bad as it was, it would have been much worse. this is a mental health problem at the highest level. it's a very, very sad event. these are great people. and a very, very sad event. but that's the way i view it. >> you know it's interesting

that within hours of the attack this past week in new york city, not only did donald trump call it an act of terrorism, he started attacking, within 24 hours, clint, he started attacking chuck schumer and said we have to pass new legislation to make our extreme vetting even more extreme. he ridiculed what is really the crown jewel of america's constitutional system. and that is our judicial system. and you can go on and on and on. b but, again, it's almost like he's talking like he's a robot that's been fed a chip by somebody when he says this is a mental health issue. this is not a -- that's what they -- it's almost like he's a robot repeating that when this just lines up as yet another -- five of the deadliest shootings

in u.s. history have happened, you know, over the past decade. and i think three of the past five have happened over the past year. these are accelerating. >> and it's clear. everyone that is interested in an attack like this learns from another one. it's a simple strategy. go, acquire a weapon. procedures we had in place to prevent someone that's been incarcerated from gaining a weapon did not work. anyone that wants to gain a wepn in the united states can. when the president talks about this issue, he quickly determines someone is a terrorist and makes somewhat bold leaps and conclusions within hours but then it's always too soon to discuss this problem on a grander scale. one commonality amongst all of these. assault weapons are being used repeatedly to do mass killings. that man yesterday was dressed

up in basically the exact gear i wore as a brand new lieutenant when i entered the army. we have people that can outgun our law enforcement and weapons are prolifer aating everywhere. he says mental issues and mental issues are the reason terrorists do what they do as well. >> we talked about it since sandy hook. we need a more effective, more comprehensive background check. here, if a guy -- after las vegas, i said what's wrong with expanding background checks to make sure that people that have beaten up their wives or husbands or children can't get a gun? why can't we expand it to make sure we do that? all he had to do was check off a box. >> lie. >> what do you expect? yes, a felon is going to lie. if he wants to get a gun to

assault and slaughter people, he's going to lie so he can get a military-style weapon. and that's exactly what happened here. it happened in a church -- i knew you grew up in mississippi, you grew up in tennessee, georgea alabama, mississippi, northwest florida. i grew up going to churches like this with friends. and it's the last place in the world you would expect this terror. >> you and clint touched on it well. we all know how hasty and irresponsible this president can be with his remarks. two things stand out. one, after the las vegas shooting, there seemed to be a movement to go after this device that you could put on a gun to make this illegal. that momentum has seemed to completely stop. two, this guy lied on this form here. there has to be some way in which you can verify very quickly whether or not these answers these people are giving on these background checks, purchasing guns, are accurate. they have to wait an additional 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30

minutes, an hour, that seems reasonable. shame on the president for a lot of things but this morning to be overseas and say we care about these people and it's terrible what happened but mental health is the problem -- and to say that only is the problem, the commonality, to clint's point, is one thing, assault weapons. people suffer from mental issues but don't have guns on them. if you keep guns out of the people who are mentally ill at least we can prevent innocent people from being killed as they await treatment for their mental illness. >> elyse, the president saying this isn't about guns, it's about mental health. that's like saying after one drunk driving accident after another this is not about alcohol, this is about real heavy cars. >> that seems like an answer that the nra would appreciate. this is a president who appreciates that the nra chose to be loyal to him very early in

the primary process. he has witnessed, himself, the enormous political power of the nra, how much money and just how much votes that they can drive from their very robust membership. and i think that donald trump definitely is under the sway of the gun lobbying. i think that assault weapons, clearly, are the problem here that is causing so much destruction. but i think that there's a second part. and that is that men who are abusing women, abusing children, abusing animals, nearly nine times out of ten in these cases, they have committed this kind of abuse in this previous life. and so we have to do a better job of keeping these guns out of the hand of abusers. >> and what is so fascinating is that when you say we need expanded background checks, mika, then you heard lindsey graham and i've heard others

paragra parrotting the nr a-line, this background system doesn't work which, again, that's why we need a better background check system. all of your arguments are circular. for instance, a couple of people have talked about assault weapons. i know what you're saying. assault weapons were banned in 1933. then they say semi automatic weapons. oh, really, the pistol i have is a semi automatic. now you're coming for my pistols? they're circular arguments. you all say it to yourself while the rest of america grow more and more horrified. last poll i saw 75% of nra members, and certainly everybody i knew growing up in alabama, mississippi, northwest florida were like okay, my dad got me a shotgun when i was 5. that's part of our lives but we've never gone out with

ar-style weapons to shoot deer. i'm just saying, that's why 75% of nra members, by a poll i saw not so long ago, want increased background checks. lot of them don't want these military-style weapons out there. that's not the majority of law-abiding nra members. >> i grew up in missouri. my grandfather taught me to shot is shoot a rifle the first time. there was a process in these families to train people to use it. i went toy arange this past year to go shooting. watched a guy walk in, pick up a weapon and just start shooting. almost shot through the ceiling. had no instruction, has bought a very dangerous weapon, taken it out of the case and started shooting. this gentleman here, any of them we've seen in recent cases go, get the same weapon i got when i was in the military. i used to have to carry it around for weeks before i could put a bullet into it, had to go through formalized training, are

going in, picking it up off the shelf and employing it against other americans. i keep hearing america first from this president and i haven't seen him put anything in place that would put americans first. >> anyone that's grown up with guns in their household, including the brzezinskis. >> deer hunters. >> and anyone in the deep south that i grew up around, the father or grandfather got them a gun when they were 5, 6, 7 and hunting was a big part of their life, especially in the fall. those people are the most responsible and the most extreme in a good way when it comes to gun safety. they keep them locked up. no, son, you don't -- daughter, you don't do it that way. this is how you do it. like clint said, all of them are so -- everyone i've ever met

that grew up and that was part of life, are so responsible. here you have a very small percentage of people that want to have the freedom. freedom to go out and get a military-styled weapon that people that get them are not prepared to get and that the police can't even match. >> the mainstream gun culture is ma mainstream. the nra functionally is a trade organization for weapons manufacturers and their job is to sell more guns. i suspect if you could see behind the books that have group, you would see money swaushing around from gun makers. that's why we have these ritual panics about gun takeback. >> buyback. >> because the goal is to sell more guns. they've already sold as many guns as they possibly can and more and more to the small number of people that want

arsenals that are rapidly converging, especially on our republican side of the aisle on what seems to be-to-me a strange world view. a felon should not be allowed to vote but should be allowed to buy a weapon. >> for those who say after every shooting, which is practically every day, and mass shooting practically every month if not twice a month. oh, it's too soon. oh, it's too soon. really? we're not safe at school. we're not safe in church. we're not safe at concerts. exactly when can we have this conversation? you're cowards. we're going to be following this story all morning long. >> i want to say one other thing. >> and we will be talking about it. >> before we get out of the first block. i really hope the media, as you see the pace and i would be really curious before we go to break to get clint's input here. the pace of these are quickening. obviously this shooter -- i'm sure this shooter saw what happened in las vegas.

we have got to stop, as members of the media, revealing the names of these mass shooters. i want to know their background. i want to know whether -- why they did it. but, clint, it makes no sense, especially in this era of copycat mass shooting, it makes no sense for the media to get somebody's name, put their picture there. the las vegas shooter, for three weeks, who is he? what was he? what motivated him? no. >> that's a good debate as well. >> doesn't the cable media culture, doesn't the talk radio culture, doesn't the online culture that obsess over these shooters, don't they just create -- >> yes. >> -- more mass shooters in the future? >> you're taking a nobody and making them somebody for the first time, mostly in their afterlife. what we tend to see -- one of the first times i was on this show we were talking about the c contagion effect. people who are on the fence,

thinking about this when they see the constant media attention, gravitate towards it. it's almost not even a contagion or outbreak but consistent, constant. it's always too soon to talk about it but the next attack is happening so soon, we can never talk about it. >> it's cowardly. >> every one to two weeks we're seeing this. low-trained, no background checks, high-capacity weapons being bought and used at large. and it's just -- i don't know at what point how many of these will we need to have in a month, six or seven, before our legislators, our leaders step up and do something? two members of the texas delegation will join us, congressman vincente gonzalez and congressman who represent the community. links to americans on everything from the big business of social media to state-owned

oil giants. >> one other thing before we go to break, a guy who is a friend of ours comes on this show, tim carney right now with "the washington examiner" tweeted out last night that his daughter is in the icu. >> praying for her. >> 11-month-old daughter. he asked for prayers. certainly our thoughts and prayers are with him. and we will also be talking about the attack on rand paul in his own home. >> oh, my god. >> horrible story. e decisions when you know what comes next. if you move your old 401(k) to a fidelity ira, we make sure you're in the loop at every step from the moment you decide to move your money to the instant your new retirement account is funded. ♪ oh and at fidelity, you'll see how all your investments are working together. because when you know where you stand, things are just clearer.

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who was it, do you remember, who convinced you to take paul manafort on as a campaign manager? >> it was a successful businessman, friend of mine. paul was not there for very long. people don't mention that. >> what was it that convinced you that he had to be let go?

>> we found out something about he may be involved with certain nations, and i don't know exactly what it was in particular. there was a point we thought paul would be better off because we don't want to have any potential conflict. >> what is so fascinating to me is there goes the man with the best memory of all time. hold on. i think he's got, he says -- >> certain nation. >> one of the all-time great memories. >> and his best adviser is himself hymns because he has a great brain. >> but he can't remember exactly why manafort was hired. >> campaign chair. >> can't remember why he was fired. >> in charge of stuff. >> said he wasn't there very long. i remember them saying we have to fire corey lewandowski because paul manafort. >> i think they fired the wrong guy. >> i think they did. paul manafort can count

delegates. we joke, we can't get the nomination without paul manafort. that's what they said, by the way. we can't get the nomination without paul manafort because he can count delegate. >> maybe the office of the presidency has impacted his memory. >> he said he had the all-time great memories. >> he did, several times. >> president's logic we just heard should have let go several other members of his campaign as well maybe. perhaps we've got four separate stories right now on the russian ties to the trump team. four. >> four. >> leaked documents show commerce secretary wilbur ross retains an interest in a shipping company that has close connections to vladimir putin's family and associates. >> he disclosed that, right? >> he was even asked about this, you know -- >> did he disclose it? i'm sure he disclosed it. >> no, no, he continues to --

>> if you have ties to vladimir putin and his family you have to disclose that. >> he was asked about richard b luchlt menthal. he will be on today. >> did he disclose it? >> we can ask senator blumenthal. >> would you forget that? >> if you have a partnership with vladimir putin, you have to disclose that. >> is wilbur ross losing his memory, too? >> if you sat next to him and shook his hand would you remember that? that's what flynn -- we'll get to that. called navigator, one of its biggest customers is a russian oil firm owned in large part by close associates of vladimir putin, who were targeted by u.s. sanctions. ross told congress he had divested most of his holdings.

he was just on cnbc and when asked if he considered resigning after these violations said that was a silly question and said he did nothing wrong. i don't think it's a silly question. >> we'll do all of them. >> should we do the next one? >> yeah, and then start asking questions. i need a score sheet here. >> nbc reporting has uncovered that george papadopoulos, former foreign policy adviser. >> a nobody. >> had a public role in the trump campaign into its final weeks, despite being described as a low-level volunteer by the white house in recent days, at the rnc, papadopoulos -- >> isn't he on the panel with bob corker there? >> he spoke as a campaign foreign policy adviser on a panel with members of congress and senate foreign relations chair bob corker. he also spoke as a campaign

official in an interview to the russian interfax news agency in september and met with israeli leaders during the inauguration in january as an adviser to the new president. what? after another foreign policy adviser j.d. gordon confirmed that papapopoulos discussed russians in their meeting, this is what the president said friday. >> reporter: do you remember george papadopoulos during that march meeting floating the idea -- >> i don't remember much about that meeting. it was a very unimportant meeting. don't remember much about it. >> memory, i thought he had one of the -- harold? you told me that he said he had one of the best all-time memories. >> he said his brain -- >> he told me right before that -- >> he told me personally he advises himself. >> i mean, i can't -- >> nick, i'm confused. >> two more stories.

remember, i said there were four. there are two more. >> i'm confuse bid this memory lapse. >> more revelations from leaked documents show two of the big est companies in america were financed by russian entities as "the guardian" reports on subsidized institutions, dtb bank, financial arm of gas prom, funded substantial investments in twitter and facebook through a russian technology magnate who owns a stake and company co-owned by white house adviser jared kushner. facebook and twitter were not made aware that the funding for the investments came from the state-controlled bank and gas prom, both now under sanctions. spokesman for kushner declined. >> i'm going to let you get to the next story. >> i've got one more. >> at what point, though,

kremlin-backed money controlled close to 10% of facebook and 5% of twitter. nick confessore, we want to blast through to the next story. >> it's a good one. >> can you believe that? almost 10% of facebook owned by kremlin-backed money. >> it raises an important question about the last few weeks' revelations that russian bots, facebook was riddled with russian propaganda and they were slow to act on it. >> facebook. >> facebook was slow to act and also twitter. it raises a real question here about the business motives of both these two companies. >> if you or a russian-backed bank, that means you are strictly loyal, ari, to vladimir

putin. >> those are state-run bank zpls and his regime. >> state run. >> close to 10% of facebook controlled by putin money. 5% of twitter owned by putin money. >> with facebook we're talking about mark zuckerberg who sent his lawyer, when u.s. had questions last week. when medvedev wanted to meet with him he went to moscow in 2012 and went personally and didn't wear a hoodie. that day he found the suit, put aside the ten hoodies and put on the suit. because these companies are in america, loyal to america, they're loyal to whatever countries these companies need. multiple sources familiar with the investigation into russian interference in the 2016 elections say bob mueller's team has gathered enough evidence to bring charges against national

security adviser michael flynn and his son. three sources say that investigators are speaking with witnesses for information on the retired general's lobbying work and whether he launderred money or lied to federal agents about his overseas contacts. they are also examining whether flynn attempted to orchestrate the removal of turkish president erdogan's chief back to turkny exchange for millions of dollars. three sources also say michael g. flynn, flynn's son, who worked with his father in their business and on the trump transition, could also be charged. lawyers for both flynns declined to comment. let's bring in one of the reporters who broke the flynn story, nbc news national political reporter carol lee. what else is there? >> there's a number of things. i think the most significant piece of this is that robert mueller is really zeroing in on and trying to squeeze flynn and

this comes after, obviously, the paul manafort indictment and, in particular, the focus on flynn's time as national security adviser when he was inside the white house and what he did in that role, in those 24 days. you know, that's potentially a very rich area. and it's one that we haven't really focused on all that much. also particularly his ties with turkey. that's become a really big issue in this investigation. and so i think your seeing a couple of things. you know, mueller is obviously trying to squeeze flynn, focusing on his son. we don't exactly know where this is headed. there are a number of ways this could go. you could see some sort of charges brought. you could see either one or both of the flynns cooperate with this special counsel. and we just don't necessarily know where that's going. i think what we were talking

about earlier in terms of the white house distancing itself from some of the individuals who are caught up in the russia investigation, that's going to be very hard for this white house to do when it comes to somebody who actually served in the white house. >> carol, let me ask you, have there been any denials from either the justice department or from flynn's attorneys? have there been any denials he's cooperating right now with the mueller investigation? >> no. and we don't know. that's a really good question. one thing is that he could already be cooperating. we just don't know. it's not necessarily something that the lawyer -- either of their lawyers would disclose. one other interesting point is that we've asked michael flynn, the senior's lawyer, does your client deny any collusion with russia. and when you asked anyone that question who has been

scrutinized they say no, we deny that. and the lawyer for michael flynn has not done that. so i think this is, you know -- we're starting to learn a little bit more. but there's a lot we don't know, particularly whether there's cooperation. >> that is the question right now. did this story get leaked? is flynn already inside, cooperating, or was this done to pressure him? let's talk about wilbur ross. i had asked a couple of weeks ago, richard engle was on. i asked him about ross' connection with the bank in crete. cypress, excuse me. cypress. and there's -- he has a lot of different interests. let's talk about, though, this interest that was just revealed over the weekend. i mean, that's really significant, is it not, in something -- again, another failure to disclose from the

trump administration contacts with russia. >> this is one of those stories that has layers on layers on layers. like when you have the crepe cake. you have to make 20 crepes to make the cake. >> i didn't know that. >> do you know what i'm talking about? >> oh, yeah. >> sounds delicious. >> it's a labor-intensive cake. you have to make 20 crepe. >> will you make us one? >> i will, under the right circumstance. i'll make it on set if we work it out. >> so yummy. >> have a cooking segment on the show. >> yes. and this crepe is what commerce secretary did. >> there's so many crepes it's easy to lose sight of this story. >> this is kind of like sarah huckabee sanders trying to explain away dudes in the bar like tax reform. i'm seeing a trend. >> two things you need to know about all the layers to this. number one, vladimir putin's

son-in-law, like jared kushner of russia, is is tied up in this wilbur ross money that he has invested. you have a link. if you're the son-in-law, you're in for life. that is the linkage here. that's number one. that raises the question of whether mr. ross has leverage or ongoing relationship with russia that affects him, policy, sanctions, u.s. decision-making. that's a biggie. that's big. i have to say there's a smaller spees to this story. that's the disclosure piece. the reason it's smaller, although i think there's a lot to criticize here, what you have is that mr. ross basically did provide all this information about his investments. within that, he provided information about these holding companies or shell companies, joe. and within that disclosure within the shell company you find navigator, you find this information. his lawyers will argue, we did disclose the shell company and this is a piece within it. other people, i think, journalists and certainly some srnts, like the one you're going to interview today, will say

that wasn't good enough. we needed the ingredients. >> how is it that every time we turn over a rock in this investigation, carter page, papadopoulos, we're finding russian money, russian oligarches? everywhere we look, russian money. why? >> it's always russia. >> that's the funkiest part. it's never -- >> by the way, they always, when they lie, they don't lie about contacts with canada or china or mexico. but they also always seem to lie about contacts with russia. >> that's the funkiest part. >> everything i said is fair in the part that there's a lot of layering. it's nevero and it was a braz brazilian shipping company, canadian mining company. it always seems to be a russian contact, a russian cutout or russian money. >> cake has one flavor. we'll be adding to this

crepe cake all morning long. member of the senate committee, richard blumenthal will join us. and up next we'll talk to tim paxton in the wake of yesterday's mass shooting in sutherland spring, texas. two dozen people, including children, killed when a gunman opened fire inside a church. (burke) at farmers, we've seen almost everything so we know how to cover almost anything. even a swing set standoff. and we covered it, july first, twenty-fifteen. talk to farmers. we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two.

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it's pretty difficult for any of us to measure the level of devastation in one texas community this morning. death toll in the tiny town of sutherland springs amounts 7% of the population there after 26 people were gunned down in a shooting spree, according to "the new york times." joining us from austin, texas, the state's attorney general, tim paxton. thank you for joining us. >> certainly. >> this is a town of, is it, 400 people? >> it's a small town, small county outside of san antonio, about 30 minutes. >> everyone knows everybody, from all the reporting i've heard, celebrating the birth of babies and gets together for any reason. did they know also the perpetrator in this case? >> my understanding is that he

came from about 40 minutes away. it's unlikely this guy knew anybody in the town. these people are suffering because everybody in that town knew somebody there, was related to somebody there, was close to somebody there. it's definitely devastating for this local community. >> harold ford? >> good morning, attorney general. our prayers and condolences with you and all of those throughout texas. >> thank you. >> very quickly to get back to an issue, you've been quoted as saying that you don't believe guns, or any kind of limitations on guns would have any real effect on limiting and eliminating these kinds of instances. we learned this morning that this shooter, when applying for this weapon in 2016, marked on his form that he had not accused, let alone convicted of any criminal activity. and he lied. do you not think there's some way we could go about passing a law or passing some regulations to ensure that people who are convicted of crimes or had been

discharged from the military for bad conduct that they don't get their hands on weapons? >> sure, i don't have a problem with that. there's also laws against murder, though. so, people like this, who are willing to violate laws against murder and shooting people are unlikely to follow other gun laws. i don't have a problem with preventing people like this from attempting to get these. my guess is that he will find a way or these people are evil, they'll find a way around it. >> clint watts? >> quick question. realizing that people are always trying to get around these background checks, one of the things i've seen offer, which i think is a pretty reasonable solution, but wanted your take, is gun owner insurance. to have a firearm you have to take out insurance. this creates a secondary market in the private sector, not part of the government, where people are actually given a very thorough background check like we do with cars, to make sure that they're not getting their hands on these weapons. i wonder what your thoughts would be on that as a different

approach to trying to keep weapons, like harold said, out of people's hands that probably don't need that. >> i don't want to create impediments to law-abiding citizens from having guns. in this case, the people who potentially slowed this guy down from killing more people are people that had guns and stopped him from continuing his killing spree. i want to make sure that whatever we do doesn't impede law-abiding citizens from protecting themselves. this guy chose this community because he didn't think that there would be first responders there quickly. and thank god we had these two guys with weapons to move this guy at least out of the church more quickly. >> nick confessore. you said that you don't think an evil person will follow the gun laws. if evil people, mass shooters won't follow gun laws stlrks any purpose to gun laws at all? should we have them if people aren't going to follow them? >> we have laws against murder.

obviously, there are certain laws that do make sense even though they're going to be violated. there's a balancing here with second amendment rights and allowing people to protect themselves. maybe churches and businesses and schools need to start thinking about how do we protect our children? how do we protect our parishioners and congregants when we don't have local law enforcement close or in our building. >> i'm wondering, very quickly, as we close how the community is doing this morning. what are they planning? how are they coping? >> obviously, as i said, very difficult, given that everybody knew everybody and everybody knows somebody in this community. what i love about small towns in texas, and really all of texas, is people rally around. i think you'll see an outpouring of support from all texans for this community as they suffer through a really horrible degree grieving process. >> texas attorney general

paxton, thank you for being on the show this morning. >> thank you. up next, the fbi is investigating an alleged assault that left senator rand paul with several broken ribs. was it politically motivated? details on that are next on "morning joe." ♪ ♪ you nervous? ♪ ♪

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this was so disturbing. rand paul is recovering from five broken ribs and lung contusions after an alleged assault outside his home on friday. police arrested paul's neighbor, a 59-year-old anesthesiologist expected of the attack on the two-term senator inside their gated community. the spokesperson for paul's office told a newspaper that the senator was blind sided, and that he's fine. on sunday paul tweeted he and his wife for grateful for the support and called the incident unfortunate. the woman was released on bond saturday. the kentucky state police said

the fbi is investigating whether the incident was politically motivated. harold? >> he probably should not have been released. i hope he's not allowed to be back home next door with senator paul. our prayered go out to him and his family. this speaks to a number of things. >> what's the climate we're in? >> there's nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone, by assaulting, first, it's a crime to do what he did, but anyone you disagree with politically, something -- i mean, it feeds off the story we dealt with. >> we'll find out. >> we're already there, unfortunately. >> we are. >> prayers out to senator paul. >> absolutely. coming up, much more in the church massacre in texas. we are live on the ground, in sutherland springs. plus, justice correspondent pete williams joins us with the latest on the investigation. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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two huge issues. as the president handles foreign policy in asia, an american community in texas is torn apart this morning following another mass shooting. 26 people are dead there. just weeks after a gunman killed 58 in las vegas. welcome back to "morning joe." it's monday, november 6th. with us we have a political writer for the new york times, nick con if i sorry, harold ford junior, elise jordan, and clint watts, and carol lee is with us. we begin with the massacre on american soil. 26 people ranging in age from five to 72 gunned down during sunday morning worship at their small town church in sutherland springs, texas. a 26-year-old man dressed in all black armed with an ar assault

style rifle would lie in wait at a nearby gas station. we're told he then drove across the street, got out of the vehicle and at around 11:20 in the morning began firing in the church. he then entered the church and continued firing as the suspect tried to make a get away, a local resident grabbed a rifle and fired and caused the man to drop the weapon and flee the scene. >> a short time later as law enforcement responded, the suspect right at the wilson guadeloupe county line ran off the roadway and was found deceased in his vehicle. at this time we don't know if it was a self-inflicted gunshot wound or if he was shot by the local resident who engaged him in gunfire. >> officials found multiple weapons in the vehicle. much of what's known about him comes from an air force woman.

he was confined for a year, reduced in rank and given a bad conduct discharge in 2014. that raises immediate questions about how he was able to obtain a firearm. business insider reports his violent history should have prevented him from purchasing a gun. according to cnn, kelley bought the weapon in april of 2016 two years after he received a bad conduct discharge in 2014. the report, citing a law enforcement official says when he filled out the background check paperwork, he checked the box to indicate he did not have any disqualifying criminal -- >> which, clint, we've already talked to the texas attorney general and said, harold should shouldn't we make it more difficult for felons who are going to lie in a background

check? we always get nonanswers. why wouldn't we -- i said it after las vegas. why wouldn't we do what we can to have background checks to stop people who beat up their spouses, who beat up their children. i said it right after vegas -- from being able to get their hands on a gun, or terrorists. why wouldn't we expand the background checks to make sure that terrorists couldn't get their hands on these a.r. style weapons? >> it's interesting. president brings up the person must have been mentally disturbed or had an issue, but we do have laws and controls that were skirted and worked around. we put in place procedures. they clearly don't work. and so the nonresponse we saw from the attorney general was then brought on also by the answer is proliferation. everyone should have a weapon, and i admire the two gentlemen, i guess that pursued this guy yesterday. but their solution without any

evidence behind it, really, is if everybody had a gun, this would solve itself, which is essentially the old west of the 1800s. >> harold, if you talk to people on the hill and say that have gotten money from the nra and you say, hey, listen, why don't we expand background checks to keep them out of the hands of terrorists and people who beat up their spouses and brutalize their children, they'll say the background system is broken. it doesn't work. yes. that's why i'm asking why don't we fix it? well, it doesn't work. right. so why don't we fix it? why don't we expand it? >> it's too soon to talk about it, joe. >> why don't we make it better so people who beat up their spouses, who beat up their wives, who beat up their children, can't go in and buy a gun like this guy did? >> you know, to qualify for some

of these airline programs where you can jump in front of the line with tsa preor the clear, you have to go through a process. it appears the process, for some reason, members of congress and the attorney general, who i don't want to be too critical of as they mourn, but you have to deal with realities. we say this man was mentally ill. not enough to not throw on a bullet proof vest. the man in south carolina went in with nothing on. this guy was -- >> prepared for battle. >> we'll learn more as we go on. this idea of arming everybody for the purpose of protecting themselves. maybe the nra should have that mantra. most people don't buy guns because they want to prevent somebody from shooting up a church. i'm glad this young man was there, but this needs to be brought out. there are ways to do this. what about the device on the gun

in las vegas, why not do that? the background check, this is a simple thing to do. it would not have prevented the young man who shot the felon at church from having a gun. that young man was interviewed evidently doesn't have a background problem. he got a gun. everyone has to go through a background check. this is not unreasonable. hopefully we find ourselves closer to a conversation on this than not. >> nine out of ten americans support enhanced background checks. >> it's too soon to talk about it. >> let's bring in our correspondent from sutherland springs, texas. >> reporter: good morning. you guys are talking about important issues. this morning the community here is waking up to the reality of what happened yesterday completely shocked and reeling after the deadly massacre at the church right behind me. this is an idyllic town. everyone we've spoken to here says they know somebody who went to this church. they know somebody who could have been at that church including one of the eyewitnesss

we spoke to at the gas station who said it's very common after sunday service that you would see the families and the young kids who were going to the sunday school run across the street and grab something from the convenience store. and that was the kind of town this was. now, you're talking about the victims ranging in age from five to 72. what we're learning about that is heart breaking. many of these multigenerational families. in one case you're talking about a father and his wife. the guest preachers at this week's service included as well, one family that lost their grandchildren and even a great grandson. it gives you a sense of how grief stricken this community is. a lot of questions today focussed on the investigation. why would this gunman drive 30 miles away from his hometown to come to this specific church? there are a lot of questions. some theories out there. nothing yet emerging as the front runner. one possible scenario, this was a church that used to stream its services online, so it had a

little online visibility. that videotape or that streaming, that's going to be central to the investigation as to whether or not yesterday's deadly massacre was actually captured on footage. that will then give them some evidence. 26 people killed as you mentioned. two of the bodies recovered outside. children, women, including a pregnant woman. a grief sticken community here this morning. >> horrendous. thank you very much. joining us now, congressman of texas. his district includes the town of sutherland springs. thank you very much for joining us this morning. >> thank you very much, and good morning to y'all. >> i can't imagine, and how is the community coping? what is planned for today, and what have you heard? >> well, again, a small community of less than 400 individuals. a very close knit community, familiar with it. as your reporter said, everybody knows each other. everybody knows every single

person that got killed or got injured there. i've been in contact with the sheriff and with other folks there from the community, and it's very hard. the question is why us? why at a house of worship? it's going to be a difficult time to go through this grieving process, and then go through this heal process. it's going to be hard. it's going to be extremely difficult for that small community. >> when did you hear about this, and who notified you, and what have you heard from people in the community directly? >> my staff, i represent the city, and they know we go there once a month to go provide services. i get a call from my staff. i've been called the sheriff, i've known him for over 13 years. and i called him, and the

sheriff told me basically what he had, the information he had, the preliminary information told me that this person was coming in, cawas posting a couple days before and what happened after. from there i spoke to other folks, and now we are going to, my office is going to be there first thing this morning in the next hour or so to provide help. the investigation was yesterday. i have to say that the federal, state, local law enforcement have all been working together as a team. but now my office is going to be providing the work that we do every time we're there, we're going to be there this morning providing assistance and resources and whatever we can do to provide healing to this community. >> congressman, thank you very much. here's more of what the president said about the shooting during the joint press

briefing overnight with japanese prime minister shinzo abe. >> i think that mental health is the problem here. this was a very deranged individual. a lot of problems over a long period of time. we have a lot of mental health problems in our country, as do other countries. but this isn't a guns situation. i mean, we could go into it, but it's a little soon to go into it. but fortunately somebody else had a gun that was shooting in the opposite direction, otherwise it would have been much worse. but this is a mental health problem at the highest level. it's a very, very sad event. it's a -- these are great people, and a very sad event, but that's the way i view it. >> but carol lee, you pointed out that back in february the president signed a bill rolling back an obama era regulation that made it harder for people

with mental illnesses to buy guns. carol? >> that's right. in february the president signed a bill the house and senate passed that would roll back an obama era provision that required the social security administration to register individuals who were receiving social security checks because of mental illness in the national database. background checks database. the obama administration estimated that this could have covered about 75,000 people, and so president trump came into office and within a month of being in the white house decided to launch legislation to roll it back. this was a provision that was opposed by the gun lobby, so the president's raising the question of mental illness, and i think he should have to answer why, then, he decided to take this step and roll back this provision that would have addressed not all of the problems but at least a segment of it in terms of mental

illness. >> you know, nick, you have legislation like this which would have never passed under ronald reagan, george w. bush. regulations rolled back like this. you look at what george w. bush supported, ronald reagan, and other republicans, and it seems that on this issue, the party has gotten -- the party of ronald reagan has gotten so extreme, so out there, literally playing for maybe to 5%, the 10%? >> look, it's true. i think that the gop has absorbed the rhetoric and the ideas of the nra fully in this area. the background check in the nra's view, if you look at their lobbying is a sort of danger. it's a way to register people who have guns and take their guns away. they have always fought these efforts to reform and expand the background checks system, make it more consistent and effective.

they have always fought that. they have always lobbied to weaken the use of the background check system. i'm sure clint could talk about it. they see it potentially as something that can be ill-used by totalitarian government to take guns away. >> clint, we are obviously, all of our thought and our prayers are with these people in texas. the families, the victims, the stories are incomprehensible. they're heart breaking. anybody with children, anybody with grandparents, anybody that looks at this story is heart broken by it. and for me, again, these are the type of churches that i would visit with my friends when i'd spend the night with them on saturday night. then we'd go to -- whether i was in georgia or mississippi or alabama or northwest florida. i would go there, and there

would be a small service. sounded a lot like the band would get up and sing praise songs. then you'd go out and go to morrisons and then watch football. i mean, this hits so close to home. and it is so heart breaking. i just wonder, we've had this happen in charleston. we've had this happen here, and maybe there's some people here that are watching today that say it's too soon to talk about this, but i can tell you if southern baptist chunrches were blowing up. if a guy named muhammad blew up that church yesterday, oh, my god, this morning washington would be on fire. >> the president would be announcing new vetting techniques. >> yes. >> just think about it last week after new york, the president immediately, terrorism, talked about the death penalty,

attacked political opponents. chuck schumer. called for radical vetting and then went on and attacked america's judiciary. we did all that after these gun incidences that happen so much more often than acts of terrorism. >> and kill more people lately. >> and kill so many more people. all we get is let's pray, and i feel real bad, and -- >> it's too soon to talk about guns. >> we can't talk it. and well, this is a mental health issue. >> it's interesting. last week -- >> i'm sorry. we wouldn't put up with this -- >> no. >> -- with any other epidemic. if there were terrorism, like islamic radical terrorism, again, washington would be on fire this morning. and yet, we have one apologist after another apologist after another. it's been going on since sandy

hook and before coming out here going, there's nothing we can do. we're weak. >> please don't politicize it. >> there's nothing we can do. we're helpless. we have to tell our children you may get shot in churches or in concerts or at school. we're helpless. how much longer will the 90% ignore the insanity of these legislators? >> last week when we had this guy with a vehicle, if you remember, he got out with a paint ball gun, because he couldn't acquire an actual weapon. he used his vehicle as a weapon. we immediately talked about changing immigration policy and firing more missiles into syria and iraq. military action based on what happened in new york city. >> and by the way, if they wanted to make it tougher for people to rent trucks, people me in that line. i would support that. tougher background checks on people that rented those trucks. where did they rent from from?

>> new jersey somewhere. the company. home depot. sign me up. if that's going to save people riding their bikes and walking their babies, sign me up. i'm for that. and so would all other americans be for that. 90% of americans support increased background checks. >> the excuse is always it's too soon to talk about it, but it's so soon between the incidents, there's no time to talk about it. we're responding to an incident like this every one to two weeks around the united states. the pace picked up over the last three to four years and we're removing barriers if we're worried about mentally disturbed people getting the weapons, president trump is removing those barriers. if he's concerned about mentally disturbed people getting assault rifles, he can do something about it. >> i'm a strong second amendment supporter. i grew up in a home with guns. my dad was safety obsessive about having us know how to use the guns in the absolute most

safest way. but i don't like the idea of needing to have a loaded pistol in my purse to go to church on sunday morning. that just -- if that's the answer, that isn't a solution, that little old women going to the baptist chunk need to have a loaded pistol in their purse. >> to protect themselves from being killed. >> at church. >> at church. >> right. >> yeah. the answer is we all need to carry guns into jesus's house of worship on sundays. >> excuse us for wanting something better. >> a place of peace. >> the prince of peace, pack a pistol to go worship the prince of peace. you know, when i was in congressman harold, i was considered a strong second amendment supporter. and i was. i mean, i don't know, maybe 95% nra rating. but they never came to me and

said we need you to really do stupid stuff right now. george w. bush ran in 2000. he supported increased background checks. he supported a ban on military-style assault weapons. he supported smart guns. he supported all of these things. and that was in 2000 and 2004. and that was fine with the nra back then. now you can't even ban the bump stocks that turn semi automatic weapons into automatic weapons. >> insane. it's insanity. >> i don't know what the threshold is that americans respond to it. i mean, we respond -- we overreact to terrorist incidents in many ways, but we have had mass shooting after mass shooting, and there's been no real change. >> if the president would just be himself on this and call for extreme vetting around background checks, that would be

one positive step. i asked ask the president, be you on this issue. >> and make government work where it is clearly not working right now. this function of government is broken, and donald trump said he was going to come in and start making the government work again. this is a prime area for him to go and add some efficiency. >> we are sadly -- we make chunks safe again. make school safe again. we are sadly coming up on the five-year anniversary next month of sandy hook. there are a lot of people who said if that didn't move people to take a second look at how we can have a more coffmprehensive approach to protecting not only little kids at school but protecting people in school and across the country, if that doesn't work, what does. had it been radical islamic terrorists with a beard named

muhammad, washington would be melting downright now. >> up next, several months ago wilbur ross said he divested many of his foreign holdings to avoid any conflicts of interest as commerce secretary. you'd think his stake in a company tied to vladimir putin's son-in-law would qualify in that, but apparently not. and now senator richard blumenthal is calling for an investigation. he joins us next on "morning joe." plus a massive crack down in saudi arabia's government. or was it a purge? we'll explain the major impact of what's happening in that country. so, that goal you've been saving for,

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you would ever consider having mueller removed or do you plan to stay out of that? >> i hope he's treating everything fairly. if he is, i'll be happy. when you talk about innocence, i am truly not involved in any form of collusion with russia. believe me. >> will you pledge that you will not allow the mueller

investigation to be curbed or stopped? >> i said all along, we need to let the career professionals do their job, see it through. i don't think he should be stepping down or fired. and the president made it clear he's not going to do that. >> paul ryan addressing the resolution file bid three house republicans calling on special counsel mueller to recuse himself in the probe of russian interference in the election. joining us now, brett stevens and richard blumenthal. great to have you both this morning. >> senator blumenthal, a lot -- >> where to go first. >> a lot to try to digest on russia. but it's sort of like eating an elephant. there's just too much this weekend. of course, i -- i didn't mean, you know, like a republican elephant, but just --

>> i don't go along with eating elephant. >> okay. >> exactly. >> let's just go by the time. we start with the commerce secretary who was supposed to disclose any ties that may have been compromising with foreign powers. we now find out that he is linked financially to vladimir putin's son-in-law. >> vladimir putin's responsible and a member of vladimir putin's inner circle who is under sanctions from the united states, because he is involved in a company, and the sanctions are supposed to provide punishment for continuing to -- >> i feel misled. the congress should feel misled. wilbur ross came to our committee. he claimed to be divesting and selling all these interests. investiga in fact, he has retained an ownership stake in a company,

navigator, that does business with this russian energy giant. he probably makes more money from shipping gas for russia than he does as commerce secretary when he goes to negotiate trade agreements. >> what are we supposed to make of all this? they all lie about russia? >> that's the thing. >> he has the attorney general got caught again. none of them can fill out a disclosure form. donald trump himself lied. in fact, drafted the lie on air force one about the don junior meeting in the office. >> yeah. this is like a painting where every single point seems small but it creates a picture. what's astonishing is just the ubiquity of the ties at every level of the trump campaign whether it was carter page, george papadopoulos, former national security adviser, michael flynn. you mentioned jeff sessions.

and people -- it's -- russia is not a natural business partner. it's not like, say, you can imagine france or britain or ja fan or china, major economies. russia has an economy that's considerably smaller than italy's. it simply begs the question why so many members of trump's inner circle were interested in ties with russia or had ties -- >> people don't realize the economy, smaller than italy and canada's. it's like 1.2 trillion. >> but this administration really has robust russia ties. they just -- >> all of them. >> it's really never-ending. everyone has some kind of tie with russia. senator, my question for you, something i'm just -- i'm confused about how this works, and if you could explain. so secretary wilbur ross, he said he would divest. he has not divested. what is the recourse for

accountability there? >> great question. what i think should happen is the inspector general should investigate. we ought to have hearings in the commerce committee. he came before it, and he apparently deliberately conce concealed these ownership interests. there ought to be hearings and if he fails to give a compelling explanation, he ought to resign. this stake in a company with such close ties to putin's son-in-law, a russian oligarch, subject to sanctions, raises profound questions about whether he can put the nation's interest above his own, and whether he'll be beholden to the industry. >> there are trump supporters who will say they're so focussed on this, they're obsessing. how strong was that tie to the putin-connected oil company? give us a sense of the level of

concern here. >> well, the best legal argument for wilbur ross is he's loaded and owns a lot of stuff all over the place. so you're raising -- >> could he have forgotten? >> i don't think he forgot. no. i think he knows what he has. i think he's a savvy businessman with a clear sense of how this stuff works. the reason they have the shell companies is not only sometimes for general oh passty. it's also for tax reasons. >> how much money are we talking about this that connection? >> total, billions. but it's, i believe, it's several hundred million dollar stake within these shell companies, but again, when you go out to navigator, it's stakes that goes into it. brett said this is like a painting. the issue there is the problem with those kind of paintings is a monet can look very good far away, but when you get up close in the museums, sometimes you realize the brush work is shady. it doesn't look as good up

close. the question for the senator here is up close when you get in close to-and-a-ha navigator, whu seeing and are you concerned the ties create leverage and conflicts were american policy, or this is just a lot of money slopping around. it doesn't mean the u.s. taxpayers should be worried? >> there's a question of integrity in coming before the company and claiming to divest 80 companies, including companies like this one that have these kinds of ties. second, there's a national security interest, because sanctions are imposed against companies and individuals because they threaten our national interest. he's doing business with them. we're trying to persuade our european allies to stop buying russian natural gas while our secretary of commerce has these business ties to that company and to individuals in the kremlin inner circle tied to putin. so it undermines our national interests, and it threatens, in my view, our national security.

>> you know, to mika's question, to all the trump supporters, they ought to ask themselves, if there were president clinton with the exact same scenarios, what would the gop, what would the conservative view be? would they say this is a big nothing burger that doesn't deserve investigation because the secretary of commerce is rich and can't possibly keep track of his investments? is there nothing to the fact that a party platform was changed over the minute point of arming the ukrainians? is there nothing to the fact that the former campaign manager had elicit ties and was sus settable to blackmail from a foreign party. >> can i answer the question for you. 1996. you talked about it before. we republicans, i think were rightly outraged at bill clinton's attempt to get --

let's say foreign interests involved specifically china and something that i talked about every time somebody asked me about bill clinton, i always said, you know, everybody focussed on monica. i thought you'd go back a couple years earlier when one of the biggest contributors of the dnc tray tried to get a waiver to sell weapons to china. he went to ron brown who signed off on it. we went crazy. "the wall street journal" editorial page went crazy. the place blew up. now it's russia. what russia? and speaking of the wall street journal editorial page, a lot of republicans don't -- we'll talk about republicans. are talking about mueller. and we need to get rid of mueller. a couple of republicans the last couple of days, you wrote a column about just how what a

miserably bad argument, the sleazy case against mueller's probe. >> i won't get into my former colleague's case, but, look, one of the points that's constantly made is fusion gps, sleazy operator. they were paid by the dnc, but the only question that matters isn't whether fusion is reputable or sleazy. the question is whether christopher steele has a good reputation and whether his sources are good, and what's important is that first of all, steele's reputation is impeccab impeccable, and secondly, many of his stories check out and checked out before they were later confirmed. >> funded at the beginning by the free beacon and by an unnamed republican candidate. >> right. >> and by wealthy republican donor. >> and then after donald trump dot the nomination, then it was

the democrats. >> there's an important point here while we're talking about the press. that is how do we know about all of this stuff relating to wilbur ross? how do we know about a lot of these russian ties? it is because of investigative reporting. >> yeah. >> nbc, "the new york times," reporting with the international consortium of investigative journalists breaking this story with leaks from apple by j an offshore law firm. wilbur interests are offshore. the kaman islands where they obscure ownership and taxes. the investigative reporting here has been superb. that's why we have to resist the calls by the president himself to revoke licenses, to denounce journalists, because we know as much as we do simply because reporters are doing the work. >> we ask questions on both sides, and the focus on this is real. i will say just talking about this show and our approach to it

in the runup to the campaign, we asked trump question after question about russia. we did not understand the answers. we also asked about whether or not the dnc was rigging the election. we asked about debbie washerman schultz. we asked if hillary clinton had a message at all, and we focussed a great deal on her e-mails. the balance is there in the coverage at least here, and i think these questions are real. >> we did cover her e-mails, you're saying? >> oh, we hear on "morning joe" did. i was -- >> i remember covering her e-mails? >> i was out on front on that as someone who voted for her. this is called transparency. >> you make an important point. the scrutiny comes with the turf. if you have a question who thinks there shouldn't be scrutiny in law or journalism, that's not america. >> you talk to democrats, they'll say that the press focussed too much on the e-mails. you talk to republicans, and

they'll say you guys were so one-sided against trump. >> that's the real -- that's what's really scary about what trump does. i don't think he's going to withdraw anyone's license. he's going to create a suspicion of the media that allows him to get away with what he does. >> he already does. we'll be back. stay with us. wer premiums? extr? it's open enrollment. time to open the laptop... ...and compare medicare health plans. why? because plans change, so can your health needs. so, be open-minded. look at everything-like prescription drug plans... and medicare advantage plans from private insurers. use the tools at medicare.gov. or call 1-800-medicare. open to something better? start today. ♪

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okay. brett, repealing the second amendment. go. >> by the way, i'm shocked i did not see this. >> we missed this one. >> we've already -- >> i mean, what? >> we've declared ourselves supporters of the second amendment, and i thought you'd be number three. >> look, i'm not against people owning guns. all sorts of people have highly credible reasons to own guns. as long as we have a second amendment, there is no good legal argument you're going to disagree, but there's no good legal argument why someone can't own, say, 45 rifles. why people who don't have a criminal record or have passed their background checks can't

own small arsenals. the result is what we have now. just yesterday in texas, is ubiquitous, and we don't even notice. it's just been a month since 58 people people were murdered in las vegas. >> this is going to be very, very strange for people, a second amendment supporters at home. what's about to happen. so sit down. if you're in your chair, because richard blumenthal and i are going to explain why the second amendment works. all right. i would argue that the second amendment does work. if you look at 2008, they said the second amendment means what it means. you can have a gun in your home to protect your family. beyond that, the state of connecticut, if they want expansive gun safety laws passed, the state of connecticut can do that without touching the second amendment. and that is -- that is -- what the second amendment is is what

the supreme court says it is, which they in heller say said you have a right to keep and bear arms in your home, and no state can take that away from you. beyond that, the states can regulate how they want. >> that's exactly right as a statement of the current law. there are common sense measures. connecticut implemented them. they have reduced gun violence. the laws work. common sense steps like background checks. a ban on assault weapons, the bump stocks that enabled semi automatic to be turned into a machine gun like automatic, all consistent with the second amendment under the heller decision. >> under the heller decision. >> and that's not going to change. >> and so far the supreme court has not overruled with connecticut or other states have done which means that is the established law of the land. >> yeah. i think the second amendment is not going anywhere, and we haven't repealed the bill of

rights, i don't know we're going to. i think what's happened is the nra has positioned a lot of policy arguments which are what we debate for public safrt, inside the constitution. that has been a deft rhetorica move. >> brett, when you support back checks and jb says -- no, i support the second amendment. and the background checks, the assault-style weapons not even protected by scalia and heller. >> the profound question is whether the second amendment, whether the rights to bear arms protects the constitution of liberty. and you can make a solid argument that in 1789 that it did. the argument becomes increasingly improbable when 30,000 people or so many thousands of people are dying of gun violence.

>> so tell me, why do americans, though, there are a lot of americans, a lot of americans who voted for me in the past, a lot of americans who -- that you know who see the second amendment, and their ability to buy whatever guns they want as deeply symbolic and deeply important as a check against government overreach. why is that? >> i understand that. i think there's a romantic notion that somehow if someone comes to take everything you have, you're still going to have a gun with which to protect yourself. i'd like conservatives to point to a single instance, c what rebellion, acts of violence in the united states, where conservatives said they used their guns to protect their liberties? >> this is cultural. this is curl churl. people in cities in metropolitan areas that voted for hillary clinton that are drinking soy lattes don't have guns. and then outside in rural areas,

everyone has a gun or two -- >> why are you a hater against soy lattes? mocha has -- mika has 12 a day. i don't know what they are. >> it's culture, but it's also a matter of communication and education, because if you tell the most avid gun owner what background checks do, keep guns out of the hands of criminals and dangerous people and terrorists, no fly, no buy the majority of american people, 95% favor background checks. >> it should be harder to get a gun than a beautician's license? >> yes. >> i really hope we're not pushed to expanded background checks only after terrorists do what some of the people on the most wanted fbi list have said which is go to america, buy

guns, assault-style weapons and go out and kill lots of americans. that's the instructions they're being given right now because it's so easy. >> senator j thank you for being on this morning. up next, what is going on in saudi arabia. first, the massive -- >> senator, before you go, what's going on in saudi arabia? >> i'm on it. >> okay. >> i'm on it. i like that. good answer. >> we're going to be talking about the massive government shakeup. a missile headed toward riyadh gets intercepted and now word of a helicopter crash that killed several saudi officials. that's next on "morning joe."

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there are love of art historians who are very angry right now. let's go to art desk. can you please issue an on air apology. >> thank you, joe. i'm reporting live from the morning show art desk. >> i've been told by a lot of morning joe viewers that while i

might have suggested with monet's shady brush strokes that he was a point list. and i should have gone for -- many morning joe viewers immediately taking to social media if you want to talk, talk sura and not monet. >> i'm clearing that up. >> something we couldn't clear up. >> i'm fascinated by the story. >> there's been a massive shakeup in the in the saudi arabia government. 11 princes and possible rival to the new prince. push against corruption, but wildly seen across the globe as an effort to solidify control of the crown for muhammad named to the throne in june following a royal reshuffle and ayman, news of helicopter crash and a couple

of saudi princes being killed. what's going on? >> raises so many questions. what in the world is going on in saudi arabia. >> moving pieces right now. obviously a lot of heightened tension and anxiety in the region. poem reading into things more so than others. important to separate a few things that have taken place. you hit the nail on the head with anti-corruption fight that the conference has drawn. has raised a lot of questions. some are interpreting it more of a power grab than it is actually about anti-corruption. needless to say what the crown prince has officially announced is a committee to fight corruption in the country. as a result they cracked down on arresting very prominent prowester prowestern, probillionaire investors. they've also gone off members of the country's national guard. for the first time, you're seeing a consolidation of all the security forces in that country now in the hands of the crowned prince.

that's why there are some making the argument this is more about the consolidation of power than it is about reform. there are those who say, no, in fact, this is a young crowned prince. promised his young country things are going to be different going forward. as a result of that, he's going after princes and ministers to show now one is above the law. it seems to be resinating. the people i've spoken to suggest the young country is fully behind him. that's the sentiment we're getting from it. the other issue is this unfortunate incident a former prince in line to the throne. died in a military helicopter crash that is somewhat mysterious. that's why there are a lot of questions circling around that as well. >> thank you, very much. thank you very much for being on this morning. >> final thoughts. >> it's partly revolution from above. moving the country more secular

direction. partly xi jinping consolidation of power. and partly kissinger great play against. fears the most. still ahead, much more on the deadly mass shooting in sutherland springs, texas. pete williams joins us for the very latest on the investigation. democrats try to contain the fallout after those bombshell allegations from former dnc chairwoman donna brazil. is she backing away from her original claims? "morning joe" is coming right back. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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i think that mental health is your problem here. this was a very based on preliminary reports. very bring aed individual. a lot of problems over a long period of time. we have a lot of mental health problems in our country as do other countries, but this isn't a guns situation. we could go into it. it's a little soon to go into it. fortunately somebody had a gun shooting in the opposite direction or it would have been much worse. this is a mental health problem at the highest level. it's a very, very sad event. it's a -- these are great people and a very, very sad event, but that's the way i view it.

contributor clint watts and white house reporter for usa today. good to have you all on board. just weeks after what happened in las vegas, a small texas town is now the scene of the latest american shooting. 26 people ranging in age from five years old to 72. gunned down during a worship at small town worship in sutherland springs, texas. officials say a 26-year-old man dressed in all black wearing tactical gear and bulletproof vest and armed ar assault style rifle would lie and wait at a nearby gas station. told he then drove across the street.

got out of the vehicle and around 11:20 a.m. local time began firing at the church. from outside and then sprd the church and continued firing. as the suspect tried to make a get away, officials say a local resident grabbed a rifle and began firing. causing the jugunman to drop th weapon and flee the scene. >> short time later, responded to the suspect right at the wilson at that time -- at this time we don't know if it was self inflicted gunshot wound or shot by local resident who engaged him in gunfire. >> all right. let's bring back msnbc ayman live from sutherland springs, texas. >> reporter: good morning. the sun is rising here. it's a beautiful morning telling a very different reality than what took place over the past 24 hours. you know, we just saw a school buses pull up right by us at the

intersection. a lot of the kids in the school buses looking out the window in the direction of the church. it was an active crime scene. short while ago sheriff of wilson county was here speaking to the media. telling us new piece of the investigation, new piece of development which was we were looking for connection as to why this gunman chose this church. it seemed that the sheriff was saying that they've learned since yesterday that the gunman's in-laws attended this church. his ex-wife, their in-laws or his in-laws attended this church. they were not there yesterday. so they're now asking could that be a possible motivating factor into why he drove 30 miles from a neighboring county to come here to carry out this massacre. as you know, small town, very idealic. very tranquil. ylic. very tranquil.

is the convenience store owner we spoke to said very calmly after sunday's service, you would see the young school children and all of the worshippers come here, grab snacks. hang out. go back to the church. so it gives you a sense of how grief stricken this community is, but a lot of questions remain unanswered in terms of motivation. gun, what exactly was the mental condition of this gunman as a result of what he did here. we know this was planned. he had tactical gear on. assault rifle with him and he fled the scene. an indication perhaps he was going to carry out more attacks elsewhere with all the guns that he had in his possession had it not been for the local hero here who managed to neutralize him. >> thank you. officials say they found multiple weapons in the gunman's vehicle. much of what is known about him comes from an air force spokeswoman. she says he was court marshalled in 2012 on two charges of assaulting his spouse and their child. he was confined for a year. reduced in rank. and given a bad conduct discharge in 2014. joining us now, nbc news justice

correspondent pete williams. pete, what are you hearing. >> let's go back to the graphic if we may on the circumstances of his discharge because the two things here that could have disqualified, should have disqualified him from buying the gun. the third point assaulting spouse and child. that would appear to be a domestic violence conviction. that is a disqualifying factor under federal law. and confined for a year. military equivalent of a felony and also a disqualifying factor. one big question here is why was he able to buy a gun? we believe he bought this will rifle that he used yesterday last year. he bought it at a gun store in the san antonio area. so the question is, was the background check done properly? was it in the record that he had these two disqualifying factors? was there a breakdown somehow to the military not pass that along to the fbi which does the checks? the background check, national

insta check system. or was there some other problem so that's going to be one big question. secondly, the sheriff also has said this morning that kelly did shoot himself. there was so question. he had a gunshot wound when shorts got to the car after the crash. he apparently died from a gunshot wound. the question is was that from the rifle that the civilian shot at him as he was fleeing or was that something else and the sheriff said this morning that it was a self inflicted gunshot wound. >> all right. pete williams. thank you so much. >> greatly appreciated. this is happening. it's happening in rapid succession i guess through of the top five mass shootings have occurred just in the past year. i ask that because after every act of terrorism, you turn on the radio, watch tv. all people are talking about is

how do we stop it these acts of terror? you know, because las vegas just a month ago. 58 people killed. 49 killed in pulse. and 28 killed yesterday. three of the top five have occurred over the past year. something is going on. something is encouraging this behavior. >> and we focus a lot on response, but what are we doing for active shooter deterrence. epidemics of violence around terrorism. we took a lot of proactive steps. suspicious reporting we did throughout the homeland security community. i've not seen anyone say what commonalities can we study from the shooters. the frequency is greater. the intensity is greater each of these. it seemed to be completely focused on response.

i really like to see the leadership of the country step forward and say we had terrorism. we were trying to prevent it. we would say left to boom. we want to prevent the attack. how do we get out in front of this and try to protect our people. >> president trump his response always is extreme vetting. more vetting. we seem to get it wrong on that as well. appears these people are coming to pulse nightclub, new york city, chelsea. cad cloudy ski radicalized americans. young men in their 20s. something different we can do there. i'm curious to get the answers pete raised. the background system to jill ice point whenever you raise that issue and they say the system is broken, your answer is a lodge kogical one. why don't we fix it. if these facts are correct and i have no reason to believe they're not, how did this guy buy a gun in 2016 with all that litter on his conduct report

the there. >> and, again, there's a lack of logic when you start arguing about -- when you start talking about trying to fix this problem. trying to make things safer. let's get a background check system that's more expansive that makes sure domestic abusers don't slip through the cracks like apparently he did yesterday. are make sure terrorists don't get ahold of guns. get a circling argument people saying well the background system is broken. 90% of americans support enhanced background checks. that actually may have saved lives yesterday. it's possible. what happens behind you in capitol hill. >> i'm glad the president brought up mental health in his statement, joe. because it is true. every other country also has mental health problems. what they don't have is our gun

problem. this is where we need to point out to viewers that the argument -- make the argument that based on state by state laws states like illinois may have some of the strongest gun laws and yet they have gun massacres. when you look at our status among industrialized countries, we are unique. 16 times the rate of countries like germany. every time we have one of these massacres, we, the strongest country in the world, most powerful country in the world, we say we are utterly help es. in this instance, maybe this can be a catalyst because a lot of times they make the argument that they go crazy and shoot up

the place. in this case there is every indication this individual should not have been able to get his hands on these guns. >> and you also hear the argument, well, look at timothy mcveigh. they could have blown the place up. well, we can at least try to make it harder for people like this. right now, it's just too easy to go into a walmart, buy a gun. go into a sporting goods place and buy a gun. it seems strange to say, but if you see an attack, stop them from using a more deadly weapon or means of killing more people. just imagine for a second that in business, right, big data, and the collection of big data and the analysis of it is what is driving a lot of commerce.

you can get information on anybody -- any purchase they've made or where they've been. yet, somehow the next system seems to be stuck in some kind of dark ages of technology. imagine if you built one that is reliable and fast and linked up to all the state basis of the federal ones. mental disorder or disability. you can build it. there are people in silicone valley who will build it. yet there is no will on capitol hill to even try. a more accurate system. >> and law enforcement. >> of course law enforcement especially. still ahead on morning joe, surely one person not paying attention to the noise on capitol hill calling for bob mueller's resignation. that person, bonperson, bob mue talk to one of the former fbi officials about the russia probe

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does anyone think the democrats are going to win tomorrow. >> i don't know. i'm alarmed this is the question. is it the donna brazil stuff? what is turning people at the last second. >> it doesn't look like northam wins. >> oh, my gosh. >> ms 13. democrats going to look back and wonder if he does not win the election tomorrow, did we lose on the crime issue? did we lose on the public safety issue? if so, we as a party have got to come figure. >> we're losing as a party

issue. party the weak. >> >> here's a poll that shows northam up three. i've known glip si fep si for a time gill aleppo si. ed. i'll speak for myself. i'm embarrassed for him and i'm ashamed. >> at what point is winning so important that you disregard. this is the republican mod rattle republican party in a nutshe nutshell. this is what republicans do they lower themselves to win. >> nick? >> i think if you watch the democrats try to figure out their rhetoric and policy on

sanctuary cities. i think a person watching these ads and watching this debate would think that a sanctuary city policy like the one in northam is for somehow allows gangs to come through. they have not been smart about drawing distinctions about their own policy and saying look, we're for sanctuary cities, nonfelons, we're totally fine with cops coming in and rounding up gang members and murdersers. >> if you break the law, you're going jail. in this sanctuary city debate. if you break the law, you're going to jail, no exceptions. >> i'm in full agreement. >> but what's wrong with the democratic party. why is it so hard for them to win an election. >> we are a group of people who believe in pros. we have to talk. it takes a long time to get to a point. >> ei see that. >> half of the table say we're

against gangs. we're against crime. there's nothing wrong with having three points in they're he's caught on to a piece of fire there and democrats better understand, we have to be against gangs. wherever they bmay by. we're against gangs. >> you may be able to call gang members who kill people thugs without being called racist. i've called donald trump a thug. i'm not a racist. democrats have to talk tough against gangs. tough against permissiveness when it comes to sanctuary cities.

>> i think this race is who picked the issues. the republican candidate up to this point has been better picking issues. no shade to harold ford. a tough race in a tough state. when you ran to the senator in a southern state, didn't deliver a statewide vil statewide victory. what do you say about gangs, the question is if we're talking about imgrant immigrant relate if you look at donald trump and the study on issues, he main lined his issues into the general election conversation, the media conversation, more than the democrats candidate. you can debate why, but wall, border, those are all issue

related things. if you convince people ms 13 is the biggest issue in virginia, you're probably republican and probably doing well. >> right, but there's nothing moderate or liberal about being against crime or gangs. i'm african-american. played a little role in tennessee as well. if i had the same demographics, i may not be sitting here today at a pundits. whoever defines it is going to win tit. if your opponent defines it in a way. if you look soft on crime. not tough on crime. that my party does. one reason, three within a five reason. you're not going to win that debate. black americans, white americans, brown americans, whatever color you are whatever race you may be. you want to sit on your porch and not be afraid of getting shot. have your kids go to school and not fear them being pressure of joining a gang or being hurt.

that's what this guy has done well. if it turns out he's done it well enough to win, democrats will have to learn another valuable less s valuable lesson on this. money ties to russia straight ahead on morning joe. if you move your old 401(k) to a fidelity ira, we make sure you're in the loop at every step from the moment you decide to move your money

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by taking money from foreign governments and threatening to shut down news organizations that report the truth. if that isn't a case for impeaching and removing a dangerous president, then what has our government become? i'm tom steyer, and like you, i'm a citizen who knows it's up to us to do something. it's why i'm funding this effort to raise our voices together and demand that elected officials take a stand on impeachment. a republican congress once impeached a president for far less. yet today people in congress and his own administration know that this president is a clear and present danger who's mentally unstable and armed with nuclear weapons. and they do nothing. join us and tell your member of congress that they have a moral responsibility to stop doing what's political and start doing what's right. our country depends on it.

leaked documents show ross has close ties to putin. owns stake in a shipping company called navigator. one of the biggest customers is a russian oil firm owned by close associates of vladimir putin who were targeted by u.s. sanctions. ross told congress he had divested most of his holdings to avoid any conflicts of interest. >> this is basically a problem where he said he was going to get rid of a lot of stuff. he didn't get rid of all of it. senator blumenthal mentioned on morning joe today and following up. second he kept shell companies inside that have ties to viewpoint. >> there's a conflict there. >> so he makes money from vladimir putin son-in-law and people close to putin. >> correct. that's the money trail. >> still makes money.

>> that's on going. that's the problem. >> reading the reportsing yesterday, i saw where his representative said, well, secretary ross, he excludes himself from anything to do with shipping. he's the commerce secretary. he can't have anything to do with shipping? i just didn't -- >> that's incredible. >> well, shipping or russia or oil. >> or money. >> you know, that's his job. >> if you were in the businesses of private equity or real estate development at a high level, at some point in the last ten years, you will probably have taken money from russian oligarchs or from saudis or from gulf states. that's where the money is. it moves in cycles. i suspect we're going to see more of this kind of thing and not less. >> briefly, joe, something we were talking about earlier on the show today. follow the monet.

>> this is another point. and another cabinet member with ties to russia. this one ongoing ties to russia. tried to hide it with a shell company, but the money is real and it's still coming to him and homeland security coming from being controlled by vladimir putin's son-in-law. >> i immediately thought back to when walter who was the head of ethics who quit when he quit saying that they were just so overwhelmed at the time that this cabinet was coming in because you had so many billionaires unprecedented and didn't have the time to really comb through a lot of the details. this is exactly the type of thing that they would need to be catching at that time and that would need to be disclosed. and i think it may just be the

very beginning. if you recall early stories about wilbur ross show he played a role with the bank. we know a lot of the money that was potentially laundered involving russia went through cypress and so i'm not saying that there is necessarily anything bad there, but that that is another area area that could potentially bring yet another member of this administration under close scrutiny because like she said, so much of this does have to do with money. by the way, i would be remiss if i didn't mention the president himself we know from his very undetailed financial disclosure which he was required to submit he also has a number of shell companies overseas and we have absolutely no idea what's going on with those. >> meanwhile, nbc news has fresh reporting about where the special counsel's investigation into russia is turning next. multiple sources familiar with the investigation say bob

mueller's team has gathered enough evidence to bring charges against former national security adviser michael flynn and his son. three sources say that investigators were speaking with witnesses for information on the retired general's lobbying work and whether he laundered money or lied to federal agents about his overseas kagt s contacts. lawyers for both declined to contact. joining us now, frank. thanks for coming back on this show. let's talk about michael flynn. didn't he offer himself up to give information early on? >> yes, this is a significant development because we've all thought that michael flynn had slam dunk criminal charges that could have been charged weeks or months ago. so what has been the delay and what's the movement we're seeing here? my theory is that michael flynn was presented with an option. the option being that you're son is criminally exposed and we're

going to charge him and i think that's what is breaking the log jam here. michael flynn, a former general, would have been very loyal to his commander in chief, donald trump, but not that loyalty is going to be trumped by his love for his son. i think that's what going on here. i think we may be seeing flynn cooperate soon. these charges, when they come, if they come, are likely to include foreign agent registration act. that means the president had a national security adviser who was a foreign agent. add that to the other list. manafort a foreign agent who failed to disclose and then when he did disclose, misled us. now wilbur ross, sitting secretary of commerce. undisclosed relationship with russians and russian man who is not allowed to enter the united states. russian fingerprints all over this. >> just to recap. the flynn violation. the foreign issue here, is that

he had done work for a turkish company or executive who we now know is actually working on behalf of the turkish government. try to extradite a pennsylvania based cleric back to turkey. >> that's correct. >> is it likely the charges involved here relate back to that original failure to disclose himself as an agent of turkey or something else that mueller has uncovered that we haven't seen from among the broad swab of business activities that plflynn was inv? >> i think it's a no-brainer it's going to include the turkish relationship. i'm going to predict we are going to see similar charges regarding russia failure to properly disclose payments from russia and then there's even a more complex issue here that gets very legally interesting and that's whether or not there was any quid pro quo with anybody. let's talk about the turkish relationship. i get the guy that you want out of the united states and back to turkey in return for what?

now we are squarely in the public corruption. >> incredible. frank, thank you very much. up next, democrats try to contain the fallout from that donna brazil bombshell. >> what? >> what's going on there? stay with us. what powers the digital world. communication. that's why a cutting edge university counts on centurylink to keep their global campus connected.

and why a pro football team chose us to deliver fiber-enabled broadband to more than 65,000 fans. and why a leading car brand counts on us to keep their dealer network streamlined and nimble. businesses count on communication, and communication counts on centurylink. the market.redict but through good times and bad... ...at t. rowe price... ...we've helped our investors stay confident for over 75 years. call us or your advisor. t. rowe price. invest with confidence. and my brother ray and i started searching for answers. (vo) when it's time to navigate in-home care, follow that bright star. because brightstar care earns the same accreditation as the best hospitals. and brightstar care means an rn will customize a plan that evolves with mom's changing needs. (woman) because dad made us promise

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class, let's turn to page 136, recessive traits skip generations. who would like to read? ( ♪ ) molly: i reprogrammed the robots to do the inspection. it's running much faster now. see? it's amazing, molly. thank you. ( ♪ ) i was under tremendous pressure. i didn't want a plan b. plan a was great for me. donna brazil said she had to consider the idea of democrats replacing hillary clinton in the top of the ticket after the candidates health scare during the campaign.

you read donna's new book and wrote about it over the weekend. what do we know here? what are the questions in your mind. >> what is motivating donna brazil to write this tell all. pretty scathing account of the clinton campaign. she seems to hold nothing back here. and the most interesting thing that i found in the book is there was this period after hillary clinton fell the fainting spell on september 11, 2016 when donna brazil says she was contemplating in her own mind whether to set in motion a process at the dnc to try to replace hillary clinton at the top of the ticket with joe biden. she said she had considered about a dozen different combinations for what that ticket could look like and settled on biden with senator cory booker from new jersey as the running mate. i don't know this ever left the ground. i don't know if she talked to anybody about it, but she considered it and wrote about it in her book. >> harold. >> tlchere was a lot of talk abt

her fitness for office. if i was a chair and thaulgt about these different things. perhaps. some things insane for her to think along these lines. the larger point and she'll be able to defend herself, what happened with the campaign? it would be different if she wrote this book and hillary clinton had won. people would wonder. why are you saying these things. we won the election. let's move on and have the conversations in private. the party is going through a makeover. needs to go through a reconstitution. i don't think anything is wrong with her sharing her account. we can differ with her and quarrel with her. she has every right. no one ever questioned her

loyalty to hillary clinton. remember, she lost her job at cnn because they believed she was trying to help secretary clinton during the primary. we can take her at her word and read the book and party as a whole needs to answer more broadly where are we headed and what substance and policies and ideas are going to lead us? >> just recall harold that there was a period of time after the secretary faint ed when her campaign was getting a lot of information. said something about exhaustion. and it came out a day later that actually she was sick and had pneumonia. it would not seem strange to me in that interview when it wasn't clear how bad she was that she thought about the steps she would have the take if the worst is true. seems her claim there perhaps is she was thinking about the process the party has. if you lose a nominee, there is a process.

ifs. >> interesting from a historical perspective whether she did consider replacing hillary clinton. to me the most important thing going forward for the party is how they settled these interparties tensions and i'm wondering, yesterday i thought it was notable when donna brazil went out, she tried to clarify and say that no, there was no evidence that these primaries were ever rigged. the only thing that might have been an indication of favorability towards hillary clinton was the debate schedule. i'm wondering if in the book she makes clear despite the financial arrangement, there was

neverle any, quote, unquote, rigging of the primaries in favor of hillary clinton. >> yes. she writes in the book that's exactly right. she did not find any evidence that this primary was rigged in any way. describes the joint fund raising agreement in her view ethical. points out it's not illegal in any way. book is a really painful read for a lot of democrats. she questions the strategy that hillary clinton had throughout the general election. . they were not taking the threat of donald trump as seriously as they should have. it's really a tell all. very personal and disinstructive i think for the democratic party at a moment when they're trying to look past this. these are also important questions that a lot of democrats need to ask if they're going to be able to defeat donald trump in 2020.

>> i differ with her. these are acts of politics. the things about the campaign, things clearly didn't work out right. a lot of democrats across the country disappointed mildly pult that donald trump is president of the united states. we have to figure out what went wrong and how you move forward. this is a conversation ongoing. as destructive as it may be, the party needs to rethink itself and reinvent hits. >> makeover and new engine. >> we're against gangs. we know that. donna brazil will be our guest here on morning joe on wednesday. look forward to that. still ahead, two former republican presidents get candid about donald trump and it's hardly an endorsement. morning joe will be right back. hello this is joey, walmart online grocery.

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an american woman. won the marathon. >> this is for all people. >> also, a couple of other things. couple clarifications. one, i'm a little upset. i don't know if you heard. i'm reading. sean comb first known as puff daddy and p diddy is changing monocur and now will only answer to and what upsets me is i was going make this announcement

tomorrow. going to be mine. i wasn't going to answer to joe anymore, but p diddy is now only going to answer to love. aka brother love which i'm sorry. that's exactly what i was going to say tomorrow. and i got to come up with a new monociker. since he's read an article, he's going to give us what the words in the article say. >> that's the important package in the book excerpt politico accomplished. says she had promised bernie sanders that she would get to the bottom of whether hillary

clinton's team had rigged the nomination process. >> rigged the nomination process. not in the agreement. that's what people are saying. oh, she was talking about -- no. rigged the nomination process. >> and at the end of the session, she says she called bernie. i had found my proof and it broke my heart. i think she was way over her skis on that statement. i think she did find troubles statements about the dnc and rangerme arrangements about staffing that were unorthodox, but in terms of rigging and the rules, she does not have this in that book as far as i've seen. >> let's wait until we talk to her on wednesday. and discussing it now, mark, new book last republican inside the extraordinary relationship between george h.w. bush and george bush. the elder president says he

voted for hillary clinton over donald trump. and the other says he voted for none of the above. he says, quote, i'm worried i'll be the last republican president. bush spoke of trump in mayquotee him, i don't know much about him but i know he's a blow hard and i'm not too excited about him being a leader. >> so mark, obviously your book's not out until next week but when the president of the united states weighs in and two former presidents are in this back and forth, obviously it comes to the forefront. tell us about the book and specifically the bush's problems with the current president. >> well, the book had to be written. this is an extraordinarily unique situation. you have two father/son presidents. we've only had it one other time in history, john quincy adams and john adamings. there was 24 years between their presidencies. there was just eight years between the bush presidencies. and you want to know what influence the former bush had on the latter bush, bush 41 on bush

43. so that story needed to be -- >> it was a contentious relationship at time, right? >> it's a very complicated love story. ultimately, it's a love story. there's great loyalty and great men between these two men. >> wasn't jeb growing up, he was the good son? >> no, w. -- >> w. was the hell-raiser? >> i do think that was a misconception. >> please tell us jeb was the bad son. >> oh, my god, that would be amazing. >> bad seed. >> how about the worst son? >> that scene from "dallas," it wasn't j.r., it was bobby. but go ahead. >> the fact is, there's great love between the bush family. and there was 6 years between jeb bush and george w. bush. that's an eternity when you're a child. so there wasn't rivalry between these two growing up. in fact, in so many ways, there was almost two stages of the bush family. there was the george w. bush stage and then there was the latter stage where jeb was sort

of the oldest in the household after bush went off to school. yes, george w. bush strayed from the path every now and again and did not follow his father's foot steps to letter, but he was never the produigal son. it's true, if you look at the bush family. >> if you look at the progression from george h.w. to george w. politically. if you look at the sunbelt conservatism. what do you see in the conflict between the bushes and president trump about the evolution of the party that the bush family really was a mainstay of for years and years and years? >> and was 43 a bridge from 41 to trump in any way? >> i think he was -- no, i don't see that as much, joe, or is it love, brother love? >> aka. >> aka brother love.

>> brother love. >> you can just call him that. >> i think the party of george w. bush was very much the party of his father. it hadn't changed considerably. it was run by the establishment. >> and yet 41 and barbara bush still have trouble with cheney. still have trouble with the role of the neo cons in 43's administration. >> i think that might be a little overstated. one of the things that bush 41 made very clear to me -- >> is everything overstated? >> i think yeah, in some ways, it is, honestly, it is. this is a very -- there are nuances to this story that very few people appreciated. that's why -- another reason it needed to be told. but 41 had faith that his son would make the right decisions in office. was he worried a little bit about the hard conservative edge of dick cheney? probably. >> so traveling with president trump, white house press secretary sarah huckabee sanders

released this statement. quote, the american people voted to elect an outsider who is capable of implementing real positive and needed change. instead of a lifelong politician beholden to special interests, if they were interested in continuing decades of costly mistakes, another establishment politician more concerned with putting politics over people would have won. >> the book is "the last republicans" on sale tuesday. >> mark updegrove, thank you. >> we'll be right back. ike the e who own them, every business is different. but every one of those businesses will need legal help as they age and grow. whether it be with customer contracts, agreements to lease a space or protecting your work. legalzoom's network of attorneys can help you, every step of the way. so you can focus on what you do and we'll handle the legal stuff that comes up along the way. legalzoom. legal help is here.

accused of obstructing justice to theat the fbinuclear war, and of violating the constitution by taking money from foreign governments and threatening to shut down news organizations that report the truth. if that isn't a case for impeaching and removing a dangerous president, then what has our government become? i'm tom steyer, and like you, i'm a citizen who knows it's up to us to do something. it's why i'm funding this effort to raise our voices together and demand that elected officials take a stand on impeachment.

a republican congress once impeached a president for far less. yet today people in congress and his own administration know that this president is a clear and present danger who's mentally unstable and armed with nuclear weapons. and they do nothing. join us and tell your member of congress that they have a moral responsibility to stop doing what's political and start doing what's right. our country depends on it. and my brother ray and i started searching for answers. (vo) when it's time to navigate in-home care, follow that bright star. because brightstar care earns the same accreditation as the best hospitals. and brightstar care means an rn will customize a plan that evolves with mom's changing needs. (woman) because dad made us promise we'd keep mom at home. (vo) call 844-4-brightstar for your free home care planning guide.

the updates you made to your plan strengthened your retirement score. so, that goal you've been saving for, you can do it. we can do this? we can do this. at fidelity, our online planning tools are clear and straightforward so you can plan for retirement while saving for the things you want to do today. nana, let's do this! aye aye, captain! ♪ and as you go through life -whoo! -♪ tryin' to reach your goal let's go around for some final thoughts. >> joe, every time after one of these gun massacres, we talk about whether congress will act. and every time congress does not act. so i'm afraid to say that the odds are greatly in favor of no kind of action and that this really is the new normal in our country at least until we see a dramatic change in the balance of congress and in the white house.

>> artie, are there going to be a lot of people on the hill talking about it today? >> think there will. we were told throughout the 2016 campaign if you're really rich, you won't be beholden to anyone so you'll go to washington and change it. these new reports are another example that while being really rich might mean you're successful and effective and that's a fine thing, we don't besmirch that in america, it sure can bring a lot of conflicts if you're not willing to divest. >> i'm going to watch how the mike flynn and son story develops. there is a lot of shadiness surrounding that story. and will there be any action taken this week with regard to those two individuals. >> nick? >> i'm going to go home right now and bake a layer cake out of crepes. >> transparency pie. >> it's going to be a monet cake. it's going to be delicious. >> sounds good, but does it look good? >> i don't know. i learned that i don't know. >> it looks much better from a

distance than when you get up close and look at the crepes. >> my heart is in a small town in texas this morning and i just think it's time for everybody who's asking the questions to not accept the answer, to not accept the answer that now is not the time to talk about it. i know it's a complicated issue. i know there are different points of view on this. your job in washington is to lead and to take on tough things and if you were saying now is not the time to talk about what to do about guns in our society, you're a coward and a hypocrite and it's time for us to call that out, in my opinion. joe. >> i think we have to talk about it. and regardless of our ideology -- >> we can't talk about it? >> whether we're republicans or democrats, we've got to talk about it, and we've got to figure out how we stop this madness. when you look at the fact that three of the five deadliest mass shootingings have happened over the past year. >> it's time to talk about it. >> yes, if sandy hook didn't do

it, then maybe having three of the five deadliest mass shootings in american history, you know, 240 years have happened over past year, should make us all sit down at the table and try to figure this out. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. stephanie. >> thanks for those words, joe, good morning, i'm stephanie ruhle. a terrible story. a tragedy in texas. a young gunman opens fire inside a baptist church. >> there was bodies on top of bodies. they were having to move the bodies to see if anybody underneath was alive or breathing or anything. >> victims ranging from age 5 to 72. a tight-knit community grappling with unspeakable evil. >> i just think i'm going to wake up and it's going to be gone. >> i'm stephanie ruhle. with me this morning, my partner, ali velshi