18-month-old baby and up to half of the 26 who lost their lives are children. 20 more were injured in the shooting that took place at the first baptist church about 30 miles from san antonio. the gunman, 26-year-old devin kell kelley. they believe it was a domestic situation. kelley was found dead in his getaway vehicle. before we talk about the president's response to the shooting we've asked ali velshi to stay on with us. he's been on the story all day long. i watched you live at 9:00 a.m. interview the eyewitness that you just ended your 3:00 p.m. broadcast with. i've been watching you all day. you just gave me chills and moved me to tears by taking through all the mass shootings. and i wanted to start with the investigation. since you're often the first person this network dispatches, i want to ask you about this town specifically and some of what you've experienced and what you've heard from them there today. >> i think there are a few

things at play here. one of them is this is smalltown america. this is small town texas. these are really people who say that they don't lock their doors and they all know each other. this is a town of a few hundred people. about 600 people. 200 were members of that church. about 100 regularly attended. 7% of the population of this town has been killed and whether or not it's someone you knew, it's definitely someone who you knew someone who knew. so the effect it's had on this town is remarkable. this woman terie smith who runs the restaurant at the gas station here who made my breakfast for me this morning. she said it's texas. i saw this guy getting out with this big gun and it's not necessarily something we think of in texas as being a crime about to be committed. and then she listened to the entire thing. she heard the shooting. she heard the gunfight afterwards. she saw the car coming down here heading down that way where it crashed. the shock in this community, about how it all unfolded, what happened, is so deep, nicolle,

and they are troubled and trying to figure out what the reason was for this. it is helpful that with each passing hour we are learning more about the gunman because that does help people understand how their town became, you know, subject of this type of mass killing. but it is -- if you didn't know where we were and you were driving by here, this town is this intersection. it's got two gas stations, a post office here, a church over there. this is a small place. you wouldn't know you had driven by it and that's how everybody here liked it. they are now a piece of american history. >> ali velshi, what do we know about the gunman and what may have been his motive? >> well, it seemed that there may have been an ongoing dispute with his mother-in-law or his estranged mother-in-law. he had been sending her texts. he has had a bad relationship with his second wife. this is, he was convicted in the

court-martial of assaulting his wife and infant child. turned out he fractured the skull of the child. he seemed to have had an ongoing dispute. stephanie gosk who has spoken to one of his ex-girlfriends said he's been stalking her. until a few months ago continued to send messages to her, even after she changed her phone number. there is some history here that may be of mental illness or something else. he bought four guns in the last four years. two here in texas. two in colorado, and authorities are trying to figure out whether his court-martial in 2012 and subsequent discharge in 2014 specifically for the domestic abuse and infant abuse charges should have prevented him from getting a gun and didn't. authorities think he took his own life. he's not available for questions but slowly and surely everyone is piecing together a story of a troubled man with troubled relationships and a bad history

in the military. >> ali, i watched all of your coverage from las vegas and there were many stories of everyday people turning into superheroes. there are stories of heros in that town, too. can you tell us about them? >> absolutely. one man, as the assailant came out of the church, someone engaged him. he had left his big gun in the church when he came out. so he had a smaller gun and engaged into a firefight and then another bystander saw that happening. got involved. they both got into their cars n chased him down. the one guy who chased him said they reached speeds of 95 miles an hour. they came down that road from the church in their cars and went down passed me here. and eventually something happened where the assailant, the shooter drove off to the side of the road, crashed into a fence. police found him dead and they believe that that was self-inflicted. but there were two people who chased him down to sort of end this thing. it was as he was coming out of

the church. the shooting he had done was over but no one knows what he would have done when he came out. there were people who did risk their own lives to end this. >> you're excellent every day. you've been unbelievable today. thank you for all your coverage there. nbc's kristen welker joins us live from the white house. the president is always the president. the white house apparatus travels with any president wherever he goes so that the president can speak to his country and his fellow americans in an instance exactly like this, and he's done so. >> that's right. he has begun his overseas trip in asia. he was holding a bilateral news conference with the prime minister of japan when he was asked about this shooting, this mass shooting. effectively we heard him reiterate the same type of language he had in the wake of the shooting in las vegas that, really, it's too early to talk about new gun policies and, in fact, today he said the focus should be on mental health.

listen to what he had to say. >> i think that mental health is your problem here. based on preliminary reports, very deranged individual. a lot of problems over a period of time. we have a lot of mental health problems in our country, as do other countries, but this isn't a guns situation. we can go into it, but it's a little bit soon to go into it. this is a mental health problem at the highest level. it's a very, very sad event. these are great people and a very, very sad event. >> reporter: there is broad and bipartisan agreement that there should be more of a focus on mental health. of course, the president's comments starkly different from the message we heard from him in the wake of the terror attack in new york in which he called for a change in policy. he called for getting rid of the diversity visa lottery program. he called for an end to chain

migration. in that snarninstance, not too to talk about policy but in this case, reiterating that it is. he's also getting criticized for being hypocritical because in the early days of his administration he reversed a regulation on an obama-era policy that would have made it more difficult for people suffering from mental health illnesses to access weapons. this is a complicated issue. one other point that bears mentioning in the wake of las vegas, a lot of discussion about getting rid of bump stocks. those devices that can effectively turn guns into semiautomatic weapons. the president, the white house seemed to indicate some type of openness to at least having a debate about that and, yet, nothing has happened. there's been no movement. no progress on any type of legislation which did seem to have broad bipartisan support. so this remains a conversation the president wants to keep on mental health but obviously these political wounds get

reopened every time the nation deals with a tragedy like we're experiencing yet again in texas. >> i wonder if there's any acknowledgment among white house aides in private that to have gone from las vegas where they talked about using the days and weeks after the tragedy to console the victims, then they sharply veered to last week's terror attack where i think less than six hours later he was attacking chuck schumer and calling for drastic changes to immigration policy. now less than a week later, he's back to curtain number one who which is time to console the victims. any self-awareness on the part of this white house about how inconsistent their responses are and how when it's a situation that they'd like to use to advance their policy agend athere is no moment too soon to talk policy changes and to attack the other party? but when it's a tragedy that requires them to take into consideration policy proposals

inconsistent with the views much their base, it is shut down? >> there's no real acknowledgment about that, nicolle. they are insistent that the president wasn't having a political discussion in the wake of new york. as you point out, as i have pointed out to officials here publicly and privately by invoking the name of chuck schumer in the wake of the terror attack in new york, this issue does become political but they say, look, this is about protecting the country from a terror attack. this is something one of the president's key promises. one of the core issues he ran on. and, yet, of course, in the wake of these mass shootings, you do hear this line reiterated over and over again that it's too soon to talk about policy and that the real issue is not about guns. that the real issue is about mental health. but these questions get a lot more difficult when you look at the actions that have already been taken by the president. he's going to have another

bilateral news conference and what he's going to do if not about guns, about the issue of mental health as it relates to guns. >> kristen welker, thanks for spending some time with us. let's bring in our panel. joining me, former federal prosecutor renado mariati. kimberly atkins, chief washington reporter for the boston herald. brett stevens for "the new york times" and tara suttmeier. a republican strategist and former communications director for dana rohrbacher. i'm a fan of yours. both of you first time at the table. you were shaking your head specifically when we watched the tape of donald trump say it's not a gun issue. >> well, the idea that it's a mental health issue is particularly misplaced. it's something i hear many of my conservative friends say, but the reality is the shooter in las vegas who took 58, 59 lives would never have been diagnosed

as mentally ill. all the evidence suggests there was no mental illness. same case in the shooter in the steve scalise case over the summer. there wasn't real evidence that this is a guy who would have risen to a threshold of being diagnosed as mentally ill. so the reality is, and by the way, there are millions of people who have mental health issues who would never do anything of the sort. so the overlap between the -- people with mental illness and shooters isn't there. the only real connection is the access of people mentally ill or not to weapons that are capable in very short order of taking out 7% of the town in yesterday's case. and having access to those weapons. easier access to them than getting a driver's license, than getting a beautician's license. until we have that conversation and by the way, have it immediately because we're having the conversation immediately when it's a terrorism attack,

when it's any other kind of attack, we're going to see these repeated on a monthly basis which is what's happening now. >> why we are so precious when the president doesn't want to have a conversation? this is a president for whom nothing is sacred. yet after a mass shooting where he might be asked tough questions, whether he might be asked to consider policies that might anger some of his base, he doesn't want to have the conversation. there are dead children in texas. >> and this isn't the playbook of just the president, though. this is a playbook we've seen play out time and time again. in the piece i wrote today, we know this by heart. first the thoughts and prayers and then it will be too soon to talk about it because people die, how can we possibly talk about policy. now, of course, if there was a fiery, deadly interno we wouldn't say it's too soon to talk about fire safety. of course this is the time to talk about it. this is a playbook that we've seen over and over again, not just from the president but from

members of congress and others who fear, frankly, the nra and other gun industry lobbyists who will fight back come election time if they propose or back any type of gun control legislation. talk about bump stocks. this is something that most gun enthusiasts didn't even know these things existed and can't to a place we can ban those. the conversation is completely shut off from the beginning. this isn't just a presidential problem but a problem up and down the party. >> you are running to be attorney general of illinois. and matters of law are often convoluted by emotion. emotions run high when you see the youngest and the most innocent of our fellow citizens killed. it's hard to read that news that an 18-month-old. so passions are high. but can you articulate from any sort of legal standpoint the asinine nature of gun laws that

allow someone who broke the skull of his baby infant to have these kinds of weapons? >> i'll tell you, it's hard because we have state by state patchwork of gun laws. my state, illinois, has pretty, you know, reasonable gun laws but we're surrounded by states that don't. so we have a flood of guns entering into our state. >> what law would let someone who broke the skull of their infant stepson buy a gun? >> frankly, i would say a law that's completely unreasonable. it blows my mind that we have in other types of crimes, for example, we after 9/11, we increased the amount of information available to law enforcement about financial transactions. banks now have an affirmative obligation to report to the government about certain types of transactions so that the federal prosecutors and others that are looking at it have information. why we are restricting the information that is available to law enforcement so they can look at people who are purchasing

guns? it's a disgrace -- >> why are we? >> the president voted again -- he signed a bill that got rid of mental health information being put into the national firearms database in february. what is the connect when he says it's not about mental illness. >> as far as i'm away, this guy was convicted of cracking the skull of an infant, then he is not, by law, allowed to have a weapon. as far as i'm aware, we don't know how he attained these weapons. he was denied in the state of texas from getting a firearms license so the system worked there. so it's not like he walked into a walmart or walked into a licensed firearm dealer and was able to purchase a weapon. so we don't know yet. it's premature to start saying that what laws -- because as of right now, the laws on the books would have prevented this guy. >> it's a good point. the texas governor and attorney general said murder is against the law. so someone that's willing to commit murder isn't always going to be the best adherent --

>> you aren't allowed. if there's a protection order, domestic violence, you aren't allowed to get a gun. there have been breakdowns in the past. that's what happened to dylann roof. he shouldn't have been allowed. then one of the guns he got from a relative. it's a lot more complicated. as far as the mental health issue, in fitness, that regulation that he rolled back had to do with the social security administration being able to prohibit people from getting firearms if they had -- if they were on mental disability or if they had a third person who controlled their finances. the issue there was that if it was a due process issue and even the aclu, who is not exactly a fan of the nra's, even the aclu felt as though there were civil liberties violations based on that regulation because of the lack of due process. if you have anxiety and you have too much anxiety and you can't work, let's say and you get social security, then they said

the social security administration could decide that. there were a lot of people, including disability organizations that felt that was not fair. so it had nothing to do with someone deemed mentally incapable now being able to obtain a firearm. we need to be clear about that. >> i don't think the focus on mental ill sentence mness is mi why are we in this either/or situation when it comes to these massacres that are more often than not starting to include young children? >> actually everything tara said is right. the core problem we have is that owning a gun is a constitutional right in the united states. >> do you think it should remain so? >> no, i do not think -- i think there are legitimate reasons why people should own a gun. so long as it's a constitutional right, we'll be a country awash in weapons and some of those weapons will be used for diabol kag purposes. >> you wrote a provocative piece on this.

do you think the debate should move that people that have been moved and become activists should have a serious conversation about the second amendment instead of talking about the margin? >> this is why i raised it in the op ed. >> i think a lot of the conversation people have, let's get rid of the so-called assault rifles or this or that. our tinkers of the margins of our gun problem and at least we ought to open the conversation and say, is it really part of the constitution of liberty in the 21st century when so many people are using these guns to mass murder other people that it should be a fundamental right. >> i respectfully disagree. short of full confiscation -- >> you're on the record. it's a debate that will go on and on and on. we'll take a turn. the special counsel closes in on the flynns, father and son. what nbc news is learning about the evidence that bob mueller may be looking at. also ahead -- financial entanglements. new questions for a member of the president's inner circle about his business ties to russia and to vladimir putin's

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the russia investigation looming large at this hour over a member of donald trump's inner circle. nbc news has learned special counsel robert mueller now has enough evidence to bring charges in his investigation into former national security adviser michael flynn and his son. according to three sources familiar with the investigation, mueller is applying renewed pressure on flynn following his indictment of trump campaign

chairman paul manafort. meanwhile, the first trump team members indicted by mueller were back in court today. a judge ruled paul manafort and rick gates will remain under house arrest and gps monitoring for the time being. joining us from "the washington post," white house bureau chief phil rucker. that wasn't what manafort was hoping for. he wanted more freedom. >> i think that's right. but this is the name of the game when it comes to this mueller investigation. let me quickly turn to flynn because our reporting suggests that bob mueller now has enough evidence to charge him. i understood and your paper reported and you and i talked about the sort of palpable relief that flynn wasn't among the first former aides indicted because he is the only one so far ensnared that was a white house snaffe estaffer that was inside the white house while donald trump was president. can you talk about the dread around not just the potential

for a flynn indictment but the added complication of his son's legal liabilities being in the mix, michael flynn sr. >> talking to white house officials and other people around the trump orbit, there was a real sense of dread about flynn possibly being indicted and, you're right. there was a relief last week when it wasn't flynn but manafort. the reason for that is flynn was so close to the president for such a long period of time during the campaign he was at donald trump's side on the plane. he heard a lot of conversations. he was a party to some of the most sensitive things that the president was discussing when it came to national security, when it came to the russia relationship and then he was involved in the transition, helping make decisions about who would staff this government and what sort of information the president-elect would receive and for the first 24 days of donald trump's presidency, mike flynn was his most important national security figure in the government. the national security adviser. so he's heard a lot. he knows a lot.

and there's a lot that potentially he could share with mueller and the other investigators if they're able to win over his cooperation. >> i want to ask you how huge that would be for the investigators, but i also want to ask about another line of inquiry that bob mueller is looking at. and that is this question about whether or not the president and the white house obstructed justice in the firing of jim comey, in the lies that they told about the meeting don jr. had with russians in trump tower. they dictated a statement from aboard air force one. in the first interactions with comey, where he said to comey, i hope you can see to it to let flynn go, can you talk about the stakes and what we might learn if someone like mike flynn sr. cooperates with bob mueller? >> wow. well, i will tell you, i don't think i'm going to tell you something you may be surprised about. i don't think there's going to be cooperation. i quoted mr. flynn's son on twitter who was blasting bob mueller making all sorts of

unfair attacks, linking him to middle east terrorist groups and things like that. it seems like they are digging in. one thing i wonder about that, legally it makes no sense unless they think they're getting a pardon and you'd have to think, because you're right, that the -- bob mueller is investigating the president for obstruction. that a pardon of michael flynn, the guy who he allegedly told james comey he wanted him to let it go, a pardon would be powerful evidence that bob mueller could use to suggest that donald trump is motivated to protect flynn. so i don't know why they sore sure a pardon is something but otherwise the strategy they're pursuing of attacking bob mueller makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. >> would a promise of a pardon be in and of itself obstruction of justice? >> pardons in and of themselves are a way of derailing the process. i think the question would be, can you use a pardon with a purpose that is improper. and i think there can be a legal debate about that. from my perspective, if a

president hypothetically was offered a bribe in exchange for a pardon, that would be something that would be problematic and criminal behavior. there are people who think, no, a president can pardon anyone for any reason and sort of take bribes and he can commit crimes and pardon himself. i think there are limits on it, but it's something that's never been examined because no one has ever done something that outr g outrageous before. >> what would you pardon flynn to protect? >> the problem with pardoning him is he could still testify and he would be compelled to testify because he would no longer have a fifth amendment right but it would be to protect whatever conversations flynn had regarding and we've been learning troubling details about the trump tower meeting. whatever knowledge he had about other things going on within the campaign. >> you have a great column about the sleazy campaign against bob mueller and his investigators. talk about it. >> there's a line that's out afloat in conservative circles that the mueller investigation is a fishing expedition.

that he -- >> i heard it. mark lauder was incapable of saying he respects bob mueller. >> that mr. mueller ought to resign and fusion gps is sordid and so on. none of that withstands any scrutiny. take the factual base chis is people say, fusion gps has done x, y and z. maybe. but what matters is whether christopher steel, a well reg d regarded former mi-6 spy responsible for bringing down the world soccer federation in the fifa corruption case, whether his sources are good. and there's a great deal in the steel dossier. some of it is raw intelligence and raw intelligence isn't always perfect intelligence. but there's a lot of it that actually was later confirmed by u.s. intelligence agencies. the second thing -- the second argument -- >> let me stop you there. nothing in it has been, to our knowledge, publicly discredited.

it's much of it is uncorroborated. but none of it -- >> there are small details discredited and there are errors. alphabank is misspelled. things like that. but there's another point that a lot of my fellow conservatives are missing. this whole manafort thing is a big nothing burger. this happened before his money laundering took place before joining the campaign. bob casey went from being ronald reagan's campaign manager in, i think, 1980 to being head of the cia. what if mueller had never been exposed? what if he had gone on to run a victorious campaign and then had been given a big job in the administration? knowing or -- in a situation where the russians knew he had illicitly taken millions in bribes, or allegedly taken millions in prescribes from the pro-russian profit ukraine. he would have been susceptible to blackmail. that's why this matters. >> that's the problem with this. it's unbelievable what a difference a couple months make.

bob mueller was -- had an impeccable record. everyone from newt gingrich on down bragged about how wonderful he is and how he has an unimpeachable sense of character and duty. ten years fbi director. everybody. and then now, as he is getting closer and closer to things they may not want, all of a sudden now bob mueller is the enemy. it's insane. there was an interview yesterday on another network with kellyanne conway where she would refuse to acknowledge the seriousness of what's going on and spread misinformation about this dossier which bret just explained. we all know there have been parts that are accurate. and they are continuing to put out this fake news, fake news to deceive people and deflect from what's really going on. the paul manafort situation is very serious. this guy has been one of the most unethical lobbyists in washington circles for decades. and the fact that he -- his name is in a black book in the

ukrainian party of region and $18 million in cash payments. we don't know where that is. money going through cypriot banks. what's going on with real estate transactions in new york. even if trump wanted to pardon manafort, there are state laws going on here against paul manafort. and michael flynn, unfortunately for michael flynn, he served this country honorably, but i think his ambition got ahead of him and being naive in politics he saw an opportunity to make some money. his son, for those of white house know those circles, his son has always been a bit of an issue for him and -- >> what do you mean an issue, a nut? >> well, yes. obviously -- i'm just trying to be nice. it's going to be a downfall. sloppy sentence goiiness is goi downfall. a trump cabinet official is facing news questions about his ties to a kremlin-connected firm. why does every revelation about team trump come back to russia? liberty mutual stood with me

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new leaked documents show u.s. commerce secretary wilbur ross shared interest with vladimir putin's immediate family. interest he's been accused of failing to disclose when being confirmed for his cabinet post. richard blumenthal saying today he feels duped by mr. ross' lack of transparency. >> he came before us and he apparently deliberately concealed these ownership interests. there ought to be hearings. if he fails to provide a convincing and compelling explanation, he ought to resign because this stake in a company with such close ties to putin's son-in-law, the russian oligarch subject to sanctions raises profound questions about whether he can put the nation's interest above his own. wilbur ross told cnbc today he did properly disclose his

interest in the russia-linked company navigator three times on the required disclosure form. the panel is back with us along with phil rucker. what makes this a story every time is that it's never that anyone -- i think we have a graphic of eight or nine or ten connections now between the trump campaign and russia. there we go. in the family, it's donald trump jr. and jared. in the business, michael cohen. on the campaign, papadopoulos, manafort, carter page, michael flynn and jeff sessions. and we'd have to add michael flynn jr. and now add a fourth category called business and the ties aren't to venezuela, not to canada. not to mexico. they are to russia. >> and it's the one thing that every cabinet member was grilled about at their confirmation hearings. you ka constantly have the white house saying there's no connection here and dismissing, you know, any connection. oh, paul manafort was a minor bit player in the campaign, even though he was the chairman.

now a cabinet member who it's discovered he has close russian financial ties due to leaked documents from his cayman island tax shelters he was trying to conceal. it could not be a worse look for this white house. a constant drip, drip, drip of tentacles of russian connections to the campaign. does this prove that russia had some influence over him? no. but it certainly proves that at the very least, the russian government and russian operatives knew how to get their tentacles into people who are close to the president. that's what they do. that's what they've always done, and that's a problem. >> let me ask you from an investigator's stand point, are these the kind of connections that maybe it's not clear that he lied about it but it's like saying i have a peanut allergy. oh, you didn't tell me there were nuts in the snickers. he put the company on the background form. i filled those forms out twice. however, he did not make it

explicit. he's a major shareholder in this company. so it's an entanglement that at least the democrats on the committee feel he didn't make abundantly clear. >> he wasn't fully forthcoming with them and to me, the issue, as a prosecutor, i used to argue in front of the jury that the defendant was the unluckiest man in the world. wherever he'd go, all this incriminating evidence just happened to be created. >> ten people just happened to forget about russia. >> everywhere you go in this administration, we just happen to have all these people who seem to be connected to russia. all these bizarre coincidences, and at certain point to the public it's going to start to seem too good to be true. >> phil rucker, your paper had the piece with the nine contacts over the weekend. can you talk about, you know, how this is sort of cementing in many people's minds the legitimacy of the questions and inquiry. the paper also had a poll. 58% of the public believes the investigation is necessary and

almost half of the public believes that donald trump may have committed a crime. these ongoing questions, sig enou significance of wilbur ross to me, just another installation in this very, very clear picture of russia friendly, pro-russia people around donald trump. >> yeah, so this whole russia story is so confusing. i think for people to understand. some days i don't feel like i understand it, and the power of this piece was just laying out and one story in really plain language, all of the connections that these different people affiliated with trump have with russia. what you get is a picture, not of some sort of random george papadopoulos figure but you start to see, okay, as you were just saying, it's donald trump jr. it's jared kushner who had a meeting, paul manafort the campaign chairman. it's michael flynn the national security adviser in the white house. it's a lot of senior officials who have had some interaction with russia. and my colleagues interviewed some experts about this who said

this is really not normal. and there's actually one -- >> it's not normal. i worked on two presidential campaigns and in the white house. it's beyond not normal. it's deeply suspicious. >> they talked to a gentleman who worked at the cia for decades managing the russian operation and this is trademark russia. they were trying to find a soft under belly of this campaign to dig in and grab a hold of this trump operation during the campaign and that's why they came at it through so many different acheles. >> was there any hard shell? this campaign looked like all soft under belly to me. >> well, i covered the campaign and some days i couldn't figure out who was in charge or what was going on. it was not a traditionally structured campaign. a lot of people who are not sort of seasoned political players had pretty extraordinary access in this campaign. and donald trump as a candidate saw that as a real strength as part of his power. he could be nimble and surprise people and be untraditional.

it also meant a lot of access points. a lot of carter page and george papadopoulos figures floating around that campaign. >> and plenty of access to the candidate, the candidate who is now the president meeting with vladimir putin. last time he had an unscripted meeting along the sidelines of nato with just the russian translator there. do you think he goes into this, i don't know if it's a full-fledged bilat but he's going to help putin to be helpful with north korea. does he go into this meeting with any less suspicion than last time at nato? >> in the g-20, they arranged a ceasefire that helped the assad regime that hurt the israelis. every time you go and get a favor from vladimir, you are harming the united states. gary caka kasparov will tell yo this. one thing overlooked about the why russia question. russia is a small economy. small thaern italy's economy. but russia as a friend of mine

wise in the ways of finance pointed out. russia is a huge unregulated capital. if you want to understand the story, you have to go back to 2008 and a comment that donald trump jr. made to a real estate newspaper or magazine saying a large part of our business is in russia. it was the unregulated capital, not in russia but in the ukraine that attracted paul manafort. michael flynn going to russia to get large speaking fees from rt. that is why russia is so important to the story and i think this is why donald trump is so nervous because so much of that unregulated capital tries to wash itself through real stae estate. >> what does unregulated capital mean? >> it's money whose ownership, whose uses are not entirely clear that moves from one offshore account to -- from the jersey islands to the caymans into real estate holdings under shell corporations -- >> in new york city? >> in lots of tall buildings.

>> was a russian oligarch that paid $95 million for a trump property in palm peach when only valued at $60 million. i've always says follow the money. a number of interests, including a lot of donald trump's debt because american banks would not touch him because he went bankrupt four times. foreign debt, foreign banks from azerbaijan to the trump soho operation. so it's so intertwined which is why trump doesn't want anyone to ever see his tax returns. >> we have to hit pause again. election day is here again. all eyes are on virginia where the polls have tightened. we'll tell you what's at stake when we come back. shawn evans: it's 6 am.

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it's election day in virginia tomorrow. the state will vote for a new governor choosing between democrat and current lg ed northum and gillespie. his lead is narrowing but the

latest numbers showing a two-point race. almost a year to the date since trump won the u.s. presidential elexs. and the voting environment looks quite similar. democrats have been here before. they are ahead in the polls. the republican party is divide and president trump's flaws have been dominating the political landscape. we all saw how that turned out in 2016 for the paurty. phil rucker, what do you know? that's in your backyard. >> it is in our backyard. my colleagues are out in virginia today talking to voters and following the candidates on the last day of campaigning. a lot is at stake for president trump. i think the results fairly or unfairly are going to be interpreted in part as a referendum on his presidency. and that's, in part, because ed gillespie, the republican candidate in virginia is running very hard to pick up the trump base voters with a lot of very targeted messages.

trump is in asia right now. he's not been campaigning in virginia but just tweeted saying the economy in virginia is terrible which is actually, if we can do a quick fact check, the unemployment rate in virginia is 3.7% below the national average. but he's trying to convince voters there -- >> come on, rucker. that's not how

-- >> help me. john m >> look, what democrats need to do, encourage their base to get out and vote and focus on ways to unite us rather than ways to divide us. >> and donna brazile was on tv all weekend, still relitigating the hillary and bernie fights. let's listen. >> those tell thing me to shut up, told hilhillary that, age o

19, continues to fight each and every week of her life, i'll tell them to go to hell. >> i love donna brazile. not sure that helps democrats in virginia win tomorrow. >> it doesn't. all of this focus on the division within the democratic party does not help us and you saw the president of the united states donald trump trying to stoke those same divisions. democrats have to come together around issues that matter to frankly everyone. economic justice tofor people working class struggling to make ends meet. health care. things president trump is doing actually affecting real people and the ground in virginia and ignore the efforts that divide us. >> i promise, not trying to pick at that answer. it's not working. i was in erie, pa, yesterday. a democratic stronghold, hadn't

voted a republican storonghold since reagan. and aides indicted, they don't see democrats as on the side of the working household. >> i know. the problem is, disinformation campaign the white house is holding. frankly, democrats have to get there. >> it's working. >> well, democrats have to follow that playbook and communicate directly with voters and get down on the ground and tell a different message, and get out there in a way they haven't been before. i actually think donald trump's campaign in ways was more modern and targeted than ours. with the help maybe of the russian government. >> meanwhile, you couldn't get an answer, because they don't have one. democrats are -- they have a civil war going woiithin their n party. republicans are dysfunctional, too, and so are the democrats. >> momentum is clear with gillespie. and northam up and clear politics average between 2.8 and 3.3. a margin of error. virginia, trump lost virginia in

the primary. and lost in the -- lost virginia in the presidential race i believe. right? so this should have been something that democrats could have taken, given the demographic shift in virginia. it's become a more purple state. the fact ed gillespie, i've known a long time as have you, i don't know who's running. that's not the ed gillespie we knew and love. to brett's point, it's a shame the republican party is resorting that that kind of tribalism cultural politics in virginia. >> but it's working. >> i know and it's what trump unearthed and allowed us to get away with. republicans never would have been okay with a campaign run the way gillespie is running it, on these confederate statues, pitting people against each other. we were the party of opportunity, you said, freedom, liberty and lower taxes, small businesses. this kind of race, this is indicative of what 2018 is going to be for the republican party, we're in big trouble. democrats can't get it together, republicans might hold on to it, because they're not going to win

a culture war. >> i think the basic problem democrats have is that the perception of the democratic party among so many voters is its a party of, the culturally contentious. people drinking chardonnay on martha's vineyard talking about what's wrong with the country. i know this is to some extent a caricature, sometimes they contain truth and why democrats haven't been able to gain traction against a president who is as unpopular as donald trump is. they have to somehow turn that around. i'm not a democrat. i don't know how they do that, but that's what they need to think about. >> the point a democrat is telling us is true. going through the same as republicans. bottom to top. not just left and right. the people on the ground versus the establishment. democrats are just as tired and fed up with their establishment and the establishment is not reacting quickly enough to their

concerns. that's the problem we're seeing. >> when democrats are speaking to people like my family, my dad's a cashier at walmart. my mom literally somebody who didn't go to college either. when their democrats are speaking to the economic issues they're facing, not able to make ends meet, that democrat will win. we need to focus on an economic message that will lift up those people, inclusive all democrats can agree on. something that brings economic justice to those people. >> sounds a lot like that guy from hope. sneak in one more break and be right back. 's i switched to geico and got more. more savings on car insurance? yeah bro-fessor, and more. like renters insurance. more ways to save. nice, bro-tato chip. that's not all, bro-tein shake. geico has motorcycle and rv insurance, too. oh, that's a lot more. oh yeah, i'm all about more, teddy brosevelt. geico. expect great savings and a whole lot more.

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show. the president arrives in south korea. >> in seoul. looking how he speaks about the nuclear position and what does he sade about trade to the north koreans? this president a few months wanted to renegotiate our parade agreement with south korea, and that has rattled our allies there. so we'll see how aggressively he confronts that. >> always rattling. phil rucker, thank you for being here, and all of the others. that does it for me, nicolle wallace. here the katy tur, in for chuck todd on "mtp daily." and why the gun control debate never seems to move forward. >> and i think that mental health is your problem here. plus, the mueller investigation focusing in on the president's former national secu