that wraps it up this hour here at msnbc. i'm keir simmons. stay with us for updates and breaking news as it happens, and you can follow me on facebook and on twitter. there it is. joy reid is next. have a great night. i don't think anybody knows it was russia that broke into the dnc. she's saying, russia, russia, russia, but i don't -- maybe it was. it could be russia, but it could also be china and lots of other people. could be somebody sitting on their bed that weighs 400 pounds. okay? >> donald trump has never believed russia meddled in the election, never believed the conclusions of the fbi, cia, nsa and director of national intelligence overseeing all 17 u.s. intelligence agencies. never believed russia meddled in the election. he does believe -- vladimir putin. he believes president vladimir putin. earlier this morning, trump told

reporters aboard air force one en route to hanoi, "absolutely did not meddle in our election. he did not do what they're saying he did. every time he sees me he said he didn't do that and i believe, i rail believe when he tells me that he means it." but he said, "i didn't do that." hard to read donald trump's words. joining me, msnbc national security analyst and former prosecutor, and executive director of the asymmetrics project, and a journalist and scholar of authoritarian states and a democrat congressman sits on the house intelligence committee. just made you a senator, congressman, and go to you anyway as your formatter capacity as a congressman. donald trump, did you think you would live to see the day? phrase it this way. when the president of the united states would take the word of a former kgb agent and autocrat vladimir putin over the word of

lis own u.s. intelligence services? >> joy, it just makes you ask, who is he not willing to betray over this issue, as long as it perpetuates the myth russia had nothing to do with electing him? he's betrayed the intelligence community that put the report together. and now betrayed our constitution and siding with a foreign adversary. an absolute betrayal and i think a devastating message to those who toil away here in the united states and abroad to protect our country. that he is siding with vladimir putin, and taking him just at his word. >> what do you expect to hear from your colleagues on the other side of the aisle in response to that? because normally, the republican party for a long time felt they owned these national security issues, were the party that was for peace through strength during the reagan era. now you have a republican president of the united states siding with a foreign adversary

over these intelligence services that work so hard to defend this country. do you expect to hear any outrage or umbrage from the other side of the aisle? >> joy, i don't have to predict what they'll do. i saw this past week what they'll do. in a judiciary committee hearing legislating around the section 702, foreign surveillance. our first time in a long time to update that, and taking a lesson learned from our own investigation into russian interference i wrote legislation that said if we observe any foreigners trying to meddle in our elections we immediately have to notify congress. i wrote this because one of the failures of the obama administration they didn't tell congress or the public soon enough and this is one way to make sure congress knows soon as something like this were to happen again. every single republican voted against it and the chairman of the commit wouldn't support it because it was a partisan amendment. joy, i asked, what is partisan about wanting to know if foreigners are meddling in our election? i'm afraid they've just really

buried their head in the sand because any talk of election interference they think is delegitimizing a president. >> i want to -- it is pretty striking, evelyn, you now have this partisan -- you now have to put partisan in the mix talking about questions of basic national security. >> yes. >> did you ever think you'd see the day when an american president would side with vladimir putin, former kgb agent, vladimir putin, over the american intelligence services? >> never. my last job was in the obama administration, deputy assistant secretary of state responsible for russia and successor states of that region in eastern europe, et cetera, and we had republicans and democrats, i mean, i think understanding what the policy was towards russia. we didn't have a breakdown along party lines. now, we got it a little wrong because we thought we could cooperate with russia. didn't understand that -- vladimir putin was going to really be an adversary to the point where he would do a

high-risk operation against the united states elections. we didn't get that. once that became public, once we knew that, i mean, i continue to be shocked that the president can maintain this position that somehow the intelligence community is wrong you know? the only people who know what russia did are the russian intelligence agents and our intelligence agents. and so it's appalling to me that they try to dismiss it. the russians, of course, their modus operandi, keep going, pretend nothing happened but think lie about everything. in violation of a nuclear treaty with us right now. lied about invading crimea and ukraine and later admitted it and lied about the rest of what they're doing in eastern ukraine. putin lies time and time again. there's no reason to believe him. >> the obama administration had been more aggressive telling the public about what they knew was going on in terms of russian

interference, though i'll make the point republicans like mitch mcconnell threatened the white house, if you go forward we'll think you're trying to swing the election. >> i worried about, no longer in government during this time period, but i was worried about the obama administration was not informing congress in the fullest fashion they could. turns out they were and on one side of the aisle weren't interested in hearing the truth. so i think that's a bigger issue. telling the public, yes, i think the public needed to know more and i would have advocated had i been in the administration for telling the public more, but i do also understand the various things that they were juggling in the white house, various other considerations they didn't want to make it seem political, et cetera. >> and donald trump, joy -- donald trump had said that the election was going to be rigged. to the obama administration's credit they didn't want to play into that bogus claim. >> yes. i toblgtally get that. and i want to ask quickly, this russian operation was incredibly successful in that

they managed to place as national security adviser of the united states, somebody who had take an check from russia, from the leadership there in russia, and also turned out michael flynn was taking checks from other folks. this is a pretty shocking story, a news story, but turns out that robert mueller is investigating former white house national security adviser michael flynn in a plot to kidnap, forcibly remove a muslim cleric living in the united states and deliver him to turkey in return for millions of dollars. and this cleric, fethullah gulen, an autocrat type to erdogan, both flynn and his son are essentially accused of a kidnapping plat for cash he would have been plotting while the sitting national security adviser of the united states, malcolm nantz, your thoughts? >> well, it's simple. i mean, if this is proven, if

it's borne out you'll see the indictments very soon. and what i think you'll see is the former director of defense intelligence, the former national security adviser to the united states, arrested for participating in a plot to about duct a u.s. resident, and rendition him privately for money to a foreign power. and, you know, this goes hand in hand with everything else that was going on with mike flynn and his son, his involvement with russia, seeming involvement with the russian foreign minister when we were kicking out spies from the united states. this is -- so incredible, that what we have here and it goes to donald trump's remarks to vladimir putin. we have moved so far away from them being a whole bunch of innocents abroad and just looking out for their own personal interests that i really am flabbergasted, i really think we are at a national level benedict arnold moment going on

here. we have a president literally, literally, on veterans day insulting the entirety of the u.s. intelligence and siding with a former director of the kgb. fsb, but, you know, all of this together, taken as -- as one team shows kn s me there was a continuing criminal enterprise and russia is at the center of it and the president violated his oath by maintaining this fraud that none of this is true. and when it's borne out, it's going to be well past impeachable. >> yes, indeed. thank you to you all. losing malcolm's satellite. that was the reason for a bit of delay. thank you and move on to the panel. sarah kenzie, on this question of, vladimir putin being able to say to the president of the united states, naw, i didn't do it. good enough for the president on veterans day? your thought? >> you know, it's the same thing trump has been doing and putin

has been doing from the beginning. you know, continually lying about this while also being, quite audacious in proclamation, such as last year when trump asked putin to give the hacked hillary clinton e-mails to him to help him, promised he'd be rewarded to the things he's done in office like bringing russian representatives into the oval office and giving secrets. there's no shame here no sense of propriety or legality. just the audacity of an autocrat and he thinks he'll get away with it. yeah. i think malcolm said it well. we are well at the point, past the point of a, you know, typical engagement process where historical juncture. >> and you know, paul butler, the question is whether or not this is merely distasteful, and i think particularly to any veteran it must, should be distasteful the american president would side with a foreign autocrat over the intelligence services that work

hard every day to protect this country. whatever you think of the cia, nsa and history, trees are professionals working, they are americans and at minimum side with americans over the russians but maybe he doesn't want to do that. the question, whether any is criminal and whether or not there is going to be criminal liability attached both to donald trump himself, to people like michael flynn, "apparently had a kidnapping plot. go to wilbur ross, commerce secretary of the united states, own ties to putin's cronies, retained investments in a shipping firm with business ties directly to vladimir putin's inner circle and led a private bailout of the bank of cypress, long regarded as a financial haven for wealthy russians. after the worldwide economic crisis crippled the sip preacip banking system, at what point does the distasteful cross into criminal? >> when they lie about it. file reveal it, swear under oath

it didn't happen. yes, the russians lie. guess who else is lying? pretty much every trump campaign operative asked did you have contact with the russians, easy is, no. then we find out, it's not true. this week it's carter page. last week george papadopolospap. sessions, trump jr. why are they not revealing what's going on with the russians? the tragedy, to make this pattern of everybody covering up, nos disclosing meetings with the russians and with trump, why is e had lying? he was able to say that no one in my campaign contacted the russians. never any discussions. pe note that is absolutely not true. quett, what's trump trying to cover up, or just so clueless that he doesn't know that his campaign officials are doing this highly unorthodox thing of meeting with russians to try to elect donald trump as the next president of the united states? >> and we do have one instance, you know, paul in which donald trump is personally intervening

to fix the story of his son as to why he's taking that meeting with somebody who then turns out to have been using talking points connected to talking points in russia, and in which they were supposedly promised dirt on hillary clinton. i think the question for a lot of people who watch the show, a lot of people who tune in is, at what point does the liability attach to him? lots of people are in trouble. paul manafort, michael flynn, sis on, in trouble, jared kushner, maybe, who knows. it trump are liability and be prosecuted for any of this? >> yes. i think special counsel mueller is looking at obstruction of justice charges. steve miller, in the white house now, had a sitdown to talk about this letter that he jenned why comey should be fired. toop transparent. admitted it was about the russians. the white house counsel said, not a go and made a move going to rod rosenstein at the justice department to come up with

another reason. again if you're trying to impede an investigation about russian interference in your campaign, that's a federal crime. >> yes. >> comey -- what mueller is doing now. >> so many of them. >> there are. >> and the question on the national security side obviously. nothing anybody can really do tab. does the intelligence service, did the intelligence services at some point push back? and say, wait a minute. we're right here. >> they should. the problem is that you've seen pompeo be very cautious. head of the cia, cia director has been very cautious and speaking of the dni, dan coats, former senator coates, he is also very quiet. we don't really see them pushing back, and publicly at least defending the intelligence community. hopefully they're doing it in private. >> and pompeo, cia director, meeting with a conspiracy theorist giving an all ted thivy. we know not impeachment and your colleagues on the other side of

the aisle aren't 2re6interested do that. should democrats pitch to voters your party needs control of the house of representatives for there to ever be a meaningful investigation of russia gate? >> yes, joy. american people are with us. a poll came out earlier in the week showing over 65% of the country is concerned about president trump and his contacts with russia. i think if we pitch this to the american people that this is not about the last election. it's about our freedom to choose in the next one and that we will have the checks and balances to make sure we hold this administration accountable and always protect our democracy i think they'll give us the responsibility to lead. of course, we have to, you know, supplement that with health care and make sure that we're on their side when it comes to middle class tax cuts, but i believe this freedom to choose is what this is about and they're with us. we just have to make sure we show them we're for them. >> yes. i would suspect the majority of the american people believe

intelligence services over vladimir putin. thank you all for joining us. appreciate it. thanks to malcolm as well. up next, the great lawrence o'donnell joins me live. you do not want to miss that. it's easy to think that all money managers are pretty much the same. but while some push high commission investment products, fisher investments avoids them. some advisers have hidden and layered fees. fisher investments never does. and while some advisers are happy to earn commissions from you whether you do well or not, fisher investments fees are structured so we do better when you do better. maybe that's why most of our clients come from other money managers. fisher investments. clearly better money management.

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i've been investigated more than any other person in this country. to think that grown women would wait 40 years to come before, right before an election to bring charges is absolutely unbelievable. fact check roy moore's defense this morning. my friend lawrence o'donnell with a great new book entitled "playing with fire: the 1968 election and transformation of

american politics" answering the question whether donald trump's election is the most unusual in history with a big, old, no. thanks for being here. >> great to be here. >> we'll get into a book in a second. i have to talk to you about roy moore. last night on "the last word" everybody who watches the show saw you went through the attempts by sean hannity to save him. what do you make of roy moore's defense this morning? >> he didn't offer any real defense this morning but what he did was, it's been clarified to him, actually, sean hannity clarified it for him for the first time in his life, that in sean hannity's world it is weird and inappropriate to put it mildly for a 32-year-old assistant district attorney to be dating 16-year-olds and 17-year-olds and 18-year-olds and roy moore had actually admitted to dating them in the sean hannity interview before sean told him, i don't like

that. i have daughters that age and i wouldn't like that, and then roy moore went, oh, okay. i wouldn't like it either. there are two different interviews in a sean hannity did yesterday. one before the commercial break, and one after the commercial break. you might call it the recess, if it was a courtroom. and so, you know, lawyers do what they do during the recess. you know? they figure out how they're going to rehabilitate their witness. so roy moore, before the recess, before the commercial, said, for example, of debbie gibson, i knew her as a friend. i knew her as a friend. >> a friend. >> you know how he met her, his friend? in her high school civics class where someone thought it's a good idea, civics class. bring in the local district attorney to talk about the court system, unless it's roy moore, because he's going to ask a 17-year-old out on a date. that's how he knew her and was using debbie gibson's story

about them dating when she was 17, having met him in her high school civics class. using her story about, that, saying that they didn't have sex. because that's her story. they did not have sex. and saying, look, she contradicts the 14-year-old who says that we did have sex. he, in the first part of the interview, he used every other part of the "washington post" story as fact to contradict the 14-year-old. sean then comes back from the commercial and leads him through this thing about, you know, dating teenagers when you're 32 is inappropriate, and only then does he say, well, i don't really recall dating them. >> yeah. >> so unfortunately a lot of people are reducing this interview to, i don't recall dating them. that's not true. he did recall dating them. he said i dated a lot of young ladies. before he knew he wasn't supposed to say that. before his lawyer, sean hannity,

could kind of tell him, don't say that. >> i'm old enough to remember that gary hart, turf out for a presidential campaign, merely having a woman sitting on his lap. larry craig turfed out of congress for having his foot touch another man's foot in a bathroom stall. how do we go from infidelity, the hint of infidelity, suggestion of it in a photo being enough to end your political career to people in alabama saying, even if it's true, that he had sex way 14-year-old, raped her, assaulted a 14-year-old -- i don't care? >> because up to the age of trump, politicians did not get the presumption of innocence ever. that was restricted to courtrooms. and so the benefit of the doubt never went to a politician. because we have been schooled, i think rather wisely, to as a fundamental default point, do not believe politicians. >> right. >> you know, don't believe every word the car dealer says.

do not believe politicians. and so whenever they approach the doubt zone, the voter always used to go the other way. and now in this age, you have to have proof beyond a reasonable doubt. if you don't have videotape of donald trump doing what he personally confessed to doing as a sexual assaulter, if you don't have that videotape, donald trump gets the benefit of the doubt from that minority of voters who were able to get him through the electoral process. >> i wonder if he had video? in addition to the famous "access hollywood" tape, in which donald trump admits he goes up and starts kissing women and feels he can grab them by the genitalia because he's famous, even before that, donald trump admitted to peeping at teenaged girls when they were naked, because he had a -- this is donald trump admitting that. admitting he peeps at naked teenage girls. take a listen. >> well, i'll tell you the funniest, i'll go backstage

before a show, everyone's getting dress it's and ready and everything else. no men are anywhere and i'm allowed to go in because i'm the owner of the pageant and inspecting it, i want to make sure -- >> you're there. >> is everyone okay? standing there with no clothes. is everybody jookay? you see incredible-looking women and i sort of get away with all that. >> we have a cultural problem. james woods, went after a movie about gay people and had his memory refreshed that he tried to proposition teenage, young girls. so there's a cultural problem that we obviously see. hollywood scandals et cetera but problem thinking girls 15, 16, 17 girls are eligible? >> roy moore was -- imagine if roy moore was in donald trump's position? roy moore is working the high school civics class and donald trump gets to walk in when these teenage girls are dressing

during a beauty pageant, and -- and listen, we -- that world laughed their way through that, along with, you know, the "stern show" reaction and to be, to be-dosh put the "stern show" in context, howard stern did not think he was interviewing a politician. he thought he was interviewing a showbiz wise guy. that's the context of the segment he thought he was in. turns out, this was a revealing truth about donald trump that -- as i say, that minority of voters who were properly positioned geographically to get him through the electoral college were okay with that. >> absolutely. i want to talk about the book "playing with fire pea "because 1968, i personally think, an interesting yaoer in american history. read a book about it. think about george wallace a lot when i think about donald trump. is he comparable to wallace or something different? >> george wallace, his campaign manager is in this book telling

me that when he listened to donald trump campaigning he was listening to wallace. on every level. on the voter he was appealing to. on the racially coded language that he was using to appeal to them. because, you know, wallace said in 1967, when he was gearing up for his independent campaign for 1968, he said, having been steamrolled by the kennedys in integrated the university of alabama when he was a staunch segregationist he said, i don't talk about segregation anymore. i talk about law and order, and nixon heard that. ap couple months later adopted law and order. every republican candidate since then is a law and order candidate but wallets did something in his rallies no one had seen before and the next time we saw it was donald trump. that was, whenever he got these liberal, and as he would call them comi protesters, fight with

them directly, because he loved showing his supporters how tough he is, and if you put him in there, he's going to fight the people who you hate. and so that -- the wallace campaign was about hate in both directions. it was -- it was about -- you know, wallace expressing the hatred of the other side that his voters felt. trump did exactly the same thing. you would see a protester at a trump rally and quickly trump caught on to, oh, this is the good part of the rally. the part i get to say, i want to punch him in the face. that was pure wallace. taken right out -- not that trump has the vaguest notion of history and that -- that it had been done before. he had exactly the same sense of, kind of, vulgar showmanships that wallace did. >> running out of time. i want to quickly ask, part of what made this such an insane sort of wild election and the way you tell it in the book really is a page turner, because it was a wild election. but the president of the united

states choosing not to run. can you foresee donald trump doing that? >> yes, yes. never seen it before, and johnson was heavily favored when he decided to just drop out, because he was challenged on the left by mccarthy and bobby kennedy and just couldn't figure out how to deal with bobby kennedy mostly. the next time we may see this as donald trump saying, i can't take it. and lbj was a of you iter more ruthless politician than donald trump could ever be and he dropped out. >> at least he knew to be privately vulgar. laurn lawrence o'donnell. sign my book. >> you endorsed it on the back. i did. "playing with fire." check it out. you already watched "the last word" don't have to tell you about that. up next, can democrats keep a winning streak going into 2017 and dan rather will be here to talk about what united states

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if it's tuesday, any indication a new wave of diverse politicians is leading the resistance against trump. what does this mean for 2018 and beyond? my panel and i will discuss, next.

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democrats are eyeing the 2018 midterms with renewed optimism after tuesday's elections gave them reason for hope for the first time in an entire year. ralph northam's victory in the virginia gubernatorial race the big prize in the state and democrats also picked up 15 seats in the house of delegates, with four races still too close to call puts them within spitting distance of resting back control of the chamber. the blue wave swept across the country, democrats winning the governorship in new jersey entirely and after winning a key state senate race control of the government in washington state. the party also puts wins on the

board in a series of local races, among newly elected democrats a number of historic firsts for women, people of color and transgender candidates. none of which means it's time for democrats to pop the champagne cork yet, because it remains to be seen if they can continue to ride the wave into 2018. joining me, executive director with the advancement project, national office, and former dnc chair, and democratic pollster. thank you all for being here. i have to go to howard dean first. i have to go there first. i usually do ladies first, but i wonder if -- what lessons do you think the democratic party took out of tuesday, howard dean? and are they the right lessons? >> there were a bunch of them and i think most likely were the right lessons. you can only tell what they do with the lessons. first, a substantial decency about the american people, that they are not going to put up

with a lot of the stuff that trump and the republicans have been trying to get away with. it is a swing state, but to win by nine points, which northam did, is extraordinary. the second lesson, most of the grass roots stuff in the down ballot, like the delegate races happened because of the under 35 generation mobilizing. that's the key. these kids are not democrats. they are people who believe what the democrats believe in, but they're not institutional. they build their on and our trick and our challenge is to get them to be, see themselves as part of the institution that creates these kinds of values in the country. >> and you know, i wonder if, you know, democrats noticed the demographic outcome? because despite the fact that you did have, you know, to howard dean's point, a big wave of liberal voters, democratic voters, young voters, there's a particular kind of voter that voted more democratic than

everyone else as usual. black women, 19% for northam over gillespie. black men, 81-17 for northam. ten points lower than black women. white women, the other hand, went 51-48 for gillespie and white men, 63-36 for gillespie and i haven't seen the full breakdowns but suspect even when you go down the age scale from voters over 60 down to voters under 30, for white voters, there's still preponderance of republicans. i wonder if democrats noticed that it's voters of color that keep carrying them over the finish line? what i don't see, frankly, a lot of democrats doing, is registering more voters of color, registers voters at all? >> they better get the memo. how many times do they have to see black women coming out in record numbers, turning out for hillary clinton. now in virginia, and that's for a moderate democrat who was running. but the other thing is, that the down ballot. right?

you have all of these wins, like the black woman who won in charlotte. right? a black man who won in minnesota. in st. paul, minnesota. black voters handled their business. it's up to the dnc to figure out whether or not they're going to lean into the diversity of their party, and embrace it, and also know that black people voted against trump, what he stands for and against white supremacy, because we don't want to go backwards. they're going to have to recognize that that's what people want and people want new kinds of candidates. not the same old candidates that the dnc has been putting up. >> initially, incredible. three transcandidates, all three might have won including in minnesota. there was a diversity. i think we might have lost a satellite. back to howard dean. i asked that question, i get the sense that the dnc is very much interested in conversion. meaning that they would very much like, please, to go to

trump voters and convert them or convert what normally are republican voters, like white suburban women and have them convert over to the democrats. politico put out a poll 8 in 10 trump voter would vote for hem again knowing what they know now. i feel the return on investment, democrats don't necessarily see bigger roi in investing in community of color than they do in conversion? and i wrong about that. i think they -- i think so. i think the dnc -- look, the dnc is an inside the beltway organization with 40 people in virginia. they did their piece. the heavy lift among african-american and latino voters in particular were color of change, which did a great job organizing, and voter latino. latins vote. those organizations, and there were others. look, you know, the interesting thing about this is, you can criticize the dnc and they'll

say the right things, but the real change of all of this is coming from the grass roots. and there are grass roots organizations of color that are unbelievably effective, which need to be properly funded. >> yes. i just was with one last night. black girls vote. incredible. in maryland. they are registering voters, registered over i believe 11,000 voters. only at it a couple of years. >> right. >> there are smaller grass roots organizations that can -- small organization with not a ton of money but out there registering the voters who vote for progressive policies. >> registering them, developing relationships with people. a group called black pack, heavily in virginia. >> absolutely. >> new virginia majority. the work that advance project did nor years try to restore the right to vote for people of felony convictions in virginia made a difference. what we have to understand. it's not just going to be about the party. it's going to be about these groups. >> that's right. >> engaging people beyond elections, but in everyday

issues people care that, they are going to be the ones to push the dems over. again, only if the democrats understand that racial justice issues are important to people. that bread and butter issues are important to people, and that they have to lean in to diverse candidates across the country that are down ballot. >> and howard dean, quickly -- i don't think we have time. health care, medicaid expansion in maine a big deal. leaning into health care. two seconds to respond. >> you're absolutely right. health care drives everybody. including some trump voters who will not vote for trump the second time. when you look, again, get back to the point of diversity. this is not going to come from the democratic party down. it's going to come from the grass roots up and is incredibly successful. imagine black lives matter getting somebody elected to the district attorney office in philadelphia? it's going to happen. the democrats, we're going to be there, just not going to take the lead, because we don't have to take the lead. finally, communities of color

are actually taking their own lead and going to be successful and we have to do as allies, support them. not try to take the lead. support them. >> yes. and remember democrats tend to get 4 in 10 white voters. bring them back. sorry for the lost satellite. thank you to you all. appreciate it. up next, one of the giants of tv news. the great dan rather joins me live, and tomorrow, don in a brazile. tea will be spilled! don't go away. in is an amazing . but as you get older, it naturally begins to change, causing a lack of sharpness, or even trouble with recall. thankfully, the breakthrough in prevagen helps your brain and actually improves memory. the secret is an ingredient originally discovered... in jellyfish. in clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve short-term memory. prevagen. the name to remember. discover card. i justis this for real?match,

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we've defended other nations' borders while leave ours wide open, anybody can come in. oh, we're going to build the wall, don't worry about it. we're building the wall.

>> wouldn't you love to see one of these nfl owners when somebody disrespects our flag, to say, get that son of a [ bleep ] off the field right now, out, he's fired! a few days ago i called the fake news the enemy of the people, and they are. they are the enemy of the people. >> in the year since donald trump was elected, his attacks on immigration, the press and freedom of speech have threatened many of the ideals and core principles of this country. dan rather examines some of these principles in his new book, "what unites us, reflections on patriotism." and the great dan rather joins me now. i have coveted your presence on this show for so long, dan. great to talk to you. >> it's great to see you, joy, thank you. >> thank you. well, you start your book because you are an intellectual with a quote. the greatness of america lies not in being more enlightened than any other nation but in her ability to repair her faults. do you think that america has shown such ability when we seem

to have swung so quickly from having exalted in electing the first black president to electing the likes of donald trump given his character? >> well, i understand it's sometimes hard to see because there's an ebb and flow to politics. the reason i wanted to do this book, joy, quite frankly is to give some hope and inspiration about the country in some -- in at least some microscopic way. the tone and temper of the current presidency has confused some people, has angered a lot of people, so we need to keep in mind that we are a steady people. we go through unsteady periods. this is definitely an unsteady period. but if we just hold on and remind ourselves of our history, the 1960s were very divisive. we got through that and steadied ourselves. certainly the great civil war in the 1800s was catastrophic. we're basically a steady people.

and i have a chapter in the book on what unites us, point out that steadiness is one of the things that unites us. i think we began to see some signs of a new steadiness last tuesday, not because the democrats won. you can read it that way. but another way of reading it is the country having oscillated, if you will, pretty far right with the election and what president trump has done with his elective office, the country is steadying itself. now, i do think there's some danger the democrats are celebrating a little too early. and i'm not so much worried about democrats, republicans or the party. most americans see themselves as they want what's -- they want people in office who are doing what's good for the country, not for their party and not for their own political benefit. so, you know, this is one small voice, united we stand, pointing out that we better unite because that's how we stand. if we listen to these voices of divisiveness, which is basically what the president has been

preaching, he did so in his campaign and he's done so in his presidency, then we're going to slide from patriotism into some form of extreme nationalism, which can lead to nativism and tribalism. and if we go that way, i don't think we'll -- as you know, joy, i'm an optimist by nature and by experience, but if we go that way, we will not have the kind of country we have now. i think that's people are seeing and i think that's the reason i think that in the ebb and flow of our politics, things are flowing back a bit more toward civility, steadiness and a spirit of let's finally get something done rather than shout at one another, particularly shout in terms of bigotry. >> and you know, dan, this is a country obviously that was formed out of the idea of separating from the king, and yet the presidency has really morphed into a very larger than life, almost a personality cult at certain points when you've had a president with a strong

personality. donald trump has taken that to an extreme sort of almost autocratic level in a lot of ways. this is donald trump talking to laura ingraham about the fact that he has not built up the state department as the arm that speaks to the world for the united states. take a listen. >> the one that matters is me. i'm the only one that matters, because when it comes to it, that's what the policy is going to be. >> you started with tokerville, that's napoleonic. how do you have a country that's united when the presidencies himself as almost a king-like figure and those who do not worship the king cannot possibly unite with those who do? >> here's how we do it. first of all, no president is stronger than the country as a whole. that's number one. number two is just say no. listen, in our system of government, the american presidency makes the president both the head of state and the head of government, which gives him immense power but also gives him a tremendous amount of responsibility. americans from the very

beginning, you know, we don't believe in having a head of government or a head of state, never mind a combined one, who's seen as a descendant of some god or some autocratic figure. and the answer to what you just saw president trump say sometime ago, he decides all, we don't need much of a state department, the answer is to just say no. >> yep, absolutely. well, dan rather, it's always such a treat to talk to you, such an honor. thank you so much, sir. "what unites us, reflexes on -- reflections on patriotism." thank you, dan. >> thank you, joy. >> check out my "daily beast" column. finally the real majority pushes back against the bitter third. that's my current column. now, i want to give a shoutout to black girls vote. i had the pleasure of delivering their keynote address and this is some of the swag they got at their first annual celebration in baltimore last night. the grassroots organization encourages young women of color to participate in the democratic process. they're already working hard to prepare for the 2018 midterms.

you guys do a great job, thank you very much for having me. that's our show for today. join us tomorrow for more "a.m. joy." 10:00 a.m. eastern on msnbc. in the meantime keep it right here on msnbc. it only takes a second for an everyday item to become dangerous. new tide pods child guard pack.

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tonight on "all in" -- >> do you remember dating girls that young at that time? >> not generally, no. >> roy moore speaks out. >> i don't remember ever dating any girl without the permission of her mother. >> tonight, roy moore's selective defense and the republican party, trapped between roy moore and corporate tax cuts. then -- >> lock her up, lock her up. >> explosive new reporting that president trump's national security adviser may have been secretly bribed on behalf of a foreign government. >> general flynn is a wonderful man. >> from roy moore to louis c.k.,