have an accused sexual molester in office than a democrat. the president moments ago breaking his silence on alabama senate candidate roy moore one week after returning from his trip to asia, essentially endorsing, though not by name is man who's accused of molesting a 14-year-old girl. >> i can tell you one thing for sure, we don't need a liberal person in there, a democrat, jones, i have looked at his record, it's terrible on crime, it's terrible on the border, it's terrible in the military. i can tell you for a fact, we do not need somebody that's going to be bad an crime, bad on borders, bad for the military, bad for the second amendment. >> roy moore is an accused child molester. >> he denies it. if you look at what is really going on, and you look at all the things that have happened over the last 48 hours, he

totally denies it. he says it didn't happen. you have to listen to him also. he said 40 years ago this did not happen. >> mr. president -- >> i'll be letting you know next week, but i can tell you you don't need somebody who's soft on crime like jones. >> what is your message to -- talking about sexual misconduct, you have had your own allegations against you. >> let me just tell you, roy moore denies it. that's all i can say. he denies it. and by the way, he totally denies it. go ahead. >> mr. president, what is your message to women? this is a pivotal moment in our nation's history. >> women are very special, i think it's a very special time because a lot of things are coming out and i think that's good for our society. and i think it's very, very good for women. and i'm very happy a lot of

these thin things are coming out and i'm very happy it's being expose. [ inaudible ] >> i don't want to speak for al franken. i just heard about conyers two minutes ago. as far as franken is concerned, he's going to have to speak for himself. i would rather have him speak for himself. >> he denies it, the president believes him, the president question n denies it, the president believes himself, maybe that has something to do with it. kristen welker was on the front lawn of the white house and we heard you shouting questions to the president as he departed. this seems to represent a significant shifted from the white house, his advisors have been straddling that fence that if true it's troubling. and survivors have been asked if someone like roy moore had

stalked their children at a mall. but the president seemed to throw his support behind roy moore's candidacy today. any idea about who got to him? >> reporter: i think he's been talking to outside advisors, i think he's been likely talking to someone like steve bannon, who is one of his closest confida confidants, although we have not confirmed that. and steve bannon has not backed away from roy moore, the steve bannon branch hasn't backed away from roy moore, so i think that has played a role. but we can't overstate the -- the official statement from the white house is that if these accusations are true, roy moore should drop out of this race, that tone completely shifted today. instead the president all but endorsed roy moore without specifically saying his name. but effectively saying, look, we can't afford to have a democrat that ultimately his agenda is

more important, that we wants to get tax reform done. i think he is looking at priorities like tax reforms and realizing that if a democrat wins this race, that priority, other priorities could be in real deputy. you heard me ask him is an accused child molester better than a democrat. and he went back to that bottom line that roy moore has disputed all of those allegations. but this undoubtedly is something that is going to spark a backlash, his own daughter has said she has no reason to doubt the accusers. in fact she's now in an ad for doug jones that was just released today. so undoubtedly there is a dwi z division within this white house, and the president all but saying vote for roy moore. >> we have a lot of conversations about things that this president does that

obliterate norms. he engaged in an eight-day war of words with a gold star widow. he's done all sorts of things that sort of shock the system. essentially endorsing a man who is accused of molesting a 14-year-old girl, a man who was banned from the mall. this is a small community, getting banned from the mall is like getting banned from one of the hubs in a small town. any reaction yet from the white house about the potential ramifications of sort of melding together the brand of the donald trump white house, the brand of roy moore, and any concerns at all about the collateral damage to the rest of the gop? >> reporter: i have had those conversations, nicole, and i can tell you that part of the debate that has been going on here for the past several days behind the scenes, within the west wing is will the president effectively look like he is weighing in on

alabama's race, will he tip the scales, if he were to come out against roy moore, would he only energize supporters around roy moore all the more. i can tell you there are a lot of people here, nicole, that up until today were not comfortable with roy moore going to the u.s. senate. so it would stand to reason that there has been some robust debate behind the scenes about what the official message should be. i think it's no mistake that it's taken all week really to determine what his official message is going to be. we have been asking him about this every single day since his return from his trip to asia. when he was in asia, he said he would have more to say when he got back. it and it took him more than a week to figure out what his message is going to be. nicole, i think it stands to reason that it does represent

what a portion of the republican party and certainly a portion of his supporters in alabama think and believe, nicole. >> kristen welker, thanks for the questions you were asking the questions on the south lawn, it is really loud when the helicopter is running, but we appreciate it. let me bring in our panel, i was ready to start talking to them. let me tell you who's here, former democratic congresswoman donna edwards, now a senior fellow at the brennaen center for justice. elise jordan, a former advisoad. eli elise jordan, i have this physical feeling of just being repulsed listening to -- be it a figure head, he is the head of the republican party and i have described myself as a nonpracticing member, but i don't know what other word to

use other than repulsed, that the head of the republican party said essentially threw his weight behind someone accused of stalking and engaging in sexual activity with a 14-year-old. >> and this was foreshadowed yesterday by kellyanne conway on fox and friends when she actually seemed to shock the hos host of fox and friends when she dismissed the allegations against roy moore and said we need more republicans. today you see actually she is representing what president trump himself believes and he indeed doubled down again. i think that the debate that's happening right now within the republican party are republicans who want to win at absolutely any cost and republicans who are saying stop, there's no legislation that is worth supporting child molestation. >> is it that strategic, john

heilman, or, hmm, more than a dozen women. let's put their pictures up. more than a dozen women have accused donald trump of sexual misconduct and if he starts to look as if he's casting judgment on a man accused of sexual misconduct by nine women, maybe one of those 13 women will tell their stories and maybe because the me too movement is sweeping across the nation, maybe someone will believe them this time. >> i that's too strategic, i have said this before on the show. i think donald trump is all about donald trump, all he cares about is himself. i don't think he's weighing moral consistency or ethic consistency. >> you don't think he's worried about tax reform? >> i think he's very worried about it. he wants to win, he wants to get that legislation passed, to get through a year and not have any major legislation accomplished would be devastating for him.

he was afraid to go against roy moore because he thought he would lose again, now he's looking at the situation and thinking there's a chance that roy moore can win, and if roy moore can win, that's ultimately in his interest, because all he cares about is getting a big legislative win. so i don't think he cares about the morality, i don't thi'don'tk all he cares about is who is likely to win this race, if moore can win, i'll be on his side, and that will be a more likely to get a tax reform passed and that will be a win on the chalk board for me. >> i refuse to sort of sit here and -- i mean there's nothing normal about throwing your weight behind a child molester. so when he says, this president says he denies it. i almost heard him, you know, i denied it too. he's almost projecting on to roy moore his own circumstance.

>> that's what i heard, he didn't just deny it, he totally denies it. and i think what the president was saying there and he knows that he denied it, and totally denied it, 17 women, and the president denied it. nine women, roy moore denies it. and that's just not enough in this environment. and i have to believe that alabama voters are going to go to the polls and they are going to deny roy moore and deny this president. i mean i worry too, not just about what it means to the republican party, but what it means to us as americans that we could sanction having somebody who preys upon children, a 14-year-old, wanders the mall, looking to pick up young women, and then everybody saying that that is okay. and you can land yourself a job in the united states senate. >> yeah, listen, don, let me put it to you this way, i understand that in a criminal context, people are innocent until proven

guilty. that's not what this is, this is a campaign, this is a special election to serving in the u.s. senate and to govern under the banner of the u.s. republicans. why is there not anyone in this white house who can pump the brakes on a child molester. >> they did seem to hit pause about a week back, there seemed to be some caution, if this is true, he should step down. >> we'll try to find out -- she landed on well, we'll leave it to the people of alabama. >> there's an evolution, and trump's been hearing from steve bo bannon and others in the last few days, donald trump cares about trump, and trump cares about his base. he should have backed roy moore all along, he believes, instead of luther strange, the candidate who lost. he thinks there's a great difference between the people

who support roy moore and the people who support trump. if trump spoke out against him, i think that would be a real problem. >> do you think trump would lose alabama? that doesn't make any sense? >> he's told people around him, it's not a question of losing alabama that alabama could go blue this time around. he feels like there's an energy there, that this is a movement, he has said to people close to him. and he does not want to let his base down. >> he does not want to go against a child molester was the donald trump base is for a child molester? >> there's policies and positions and energy of his base, that's what he believes. >> why is there not anyone on the white house staff who can walk in there and close the door and very quietly say, mr. president, i know you want tax reform, it's going to save your family a lot of money and you need the win, but you got a lot of problems right now, you got bob mueller closing in on the

west wing. this is a lot, mr. president. why can't you just one time get on the right side of history? is there no one on that staff? who if anybody? >> i would have thought that ivanka trump would have been able to say that and her very harsh statement that's now been weaponized in an ad against roy moore, a very effective ad that the doug jones campaign has put out, with ivanka trump saying there's a special place in hell for child molesters, you have senator sessions saying he believes the women. this is what's being pumped around alabama airwaves. and john, you say you think this is a political calculation, it's an odd political calculation, given that the polls have been plummeting for roy moore, given that doug jones has momentum, even as farfetched for a

democrat to win in alabama, what is the synthesis? >> trump sees himself in roy moore, he does. he sees the politics of it too. all the polls said hillary clinton was going to win and there's all these people standing up in his base saying fake news, fake news, fake news. he recognizes the dynamic in alabama where he hears roy moore's defenders who say that the women made it all up. i believe he believes that, i'm not crediting it. but he sees this as a microchasm of his victory in 2016. everyone said i can't win, everybody said i can't win, people said i was a predator, people say he's a predator, steve bannon sees the parallel, it's political capitalization and political psychology, whatever that word for

psychopathology is all in place. the best analogy to me for this, trying to loop all this together, is charlottesville, was there no one who could go into the oval office and say it's bad to be on the side of neo-na neo-nazis? the answer was no then, and the answer is no now. because he didn't go out and read a prepared statement that kind of edged toward something reasonable. then he went out and said there are good people on both sides. what's worse, a child predator or a neo-nazi. but donald trump didn't seem to see a problem of being on the side of neo-nazis and now he doesn't see a problem with being on the side of an accused child molester.

>> he sees himself in roy moore, he does not see himself in mitch mcconnell. he does not see himself in jeff flake. it he does not see himself in any of the republican senators from the south that you just named, in sessions. he sees himself in roy moore, a whack job accused of being a sexual predator. >> and he sees himself as a renegade and he sees roy moore as a renegade, what he doesn't recognize, and he doesn't care, frankly is the long-term damage that that's going to do to the republican party. >> he's at 29% next week, this is not long-term structural damage. i mean this -- he's made this move and he's going to hug the third rail of the child molester. he will be in the 20s by the end of the year. >> and just like that ad that is so effective now that's running in alabama that uses ivanka trump. >> let's show that. you've both mentioned it. let's watch it. >> on roy moore's disturbing

actions, if vvanka trump says there's a special place in hell for child molesters and there's no reason to not believe the women. >> and richard shelby says he will absolutely not vote for roy moore. >> i see that ad and i see the same ad that will morph into every single competitive race across the country in the 2018 cycle. donald trump doesn't care about that, because he only sees tomorrow. he doesn't see down the line. and i think that what you have here is, you've got a republican party that is going to spin off the rails, because it's not like they're going to unseat roy moore once he's elected. he's going to be seated, he's going to be voting, he's going to be a member of the united states senate. and it's going to be like a rope around the necks of republicans all across the country. >> that just happened. it happened in virginia. i mean, it's under way. we don't have to -- i mean we

could cut those ads and we could play them for future elections, but donald trump might need a new political advisor, more than anything else. this is not the right side of history as you said. >> donald trump is his own political advisor. >> donald trump's political advisor is himself. and obviously the party just suffered a couple of major defeats in the last couple of weeks. trump, we know it, he goes back and reflects upon the one-year anniversary of his own election. that's all that matters, he cares about himself and his own win. he didn't give up, he fought through the accusations, which he says were not true. he came out ahead. and he feels that by following his gut this time too, he could win again, and roy moore could. >> does donald trump understand that having a man accused of sexual misconduct by nine women who will always be described as such, and endorsing said man means that having a president

accused of sexual misconduct by at least a dozen women means that this is all now part of the conversation, and by throwing his -- by seeing himself in roy moore, if all of the things you have said are true, then these women have now become the central figures in the trump presidency. >> but trump himself says he denies it and his word in this case is enough. >> for who? >> for himself and for his voters. >> for 33% of the country. >> and i think sarah sanders said something else telling, it wasn't just that the president said these accusations were not true, that these accusations were out there and the president won anyway. the american people had a litigation on this and he was tested at the ballot box and he won. he thinks this is behind him. maybe he thinks if roy moore wins in a couple of weeks, he'll win too. it. >> let's listen to her account

of roy moore preying on her when she was 14 years old. >> he basically laid out some blankets on the floor of hiss living room, and proceeded to seduce me. he removed my clothing, he left the room and came back in wearing his white underwear. and he touched me over my clothing, what was left of it. he tried to get me to touch him as well. and i was expecting candle light and roses and what i got was very different. >> roy moore denies these allegations and further says he does not even know you. >> i wonder how many mes he doesn't know. >> i wonder how many mes he doesn't know. elise jordan. i mean we are entering a time, we are in a time, we are living through a time when the lee

corps corfmans of our time -- the rest of the republicans in the senate who have spoken out believe lee korfman. so we now have donald trump and roy moore and every other republican who's in the senate, believes he korfman. >> and also every senator in alabama believes lee korfman. i think it's doing a disservice to the people of alabama who i believe, i have face in how they will vote when december rolls around. but i think that these accusations, the human stories that are behind, the force that is behind, the moral force that is behind these women and as week after week after week, the story continues as their integrity holds up in the court of public opinion, as more and

more stories come out about the mall, about roy moore preying on his wife as a dance recital, when she was 15 or 16. but how roy moore is a known predator. i do think that it does a disservice for people who dismiss pedophilia and child molestati molestation. >> let's make this distinction, these aren't democrats coming after roy moore and i think the president said something -- >> to your point, mr. president, this is not a right-left question. and i wonder, don, you were shaking your head. you think that roy moore wins? >> i think he has a good chance of winning, there is some belief, certainly the polls have closed, at least so far this hasn't been a knockout blow, roy moore still very much has a shot of winning, i think there's a school of thought that people don't want to admit to a

pollster that they're going to vote for roy moore, therefore his numbers might bhe higher thn the polls reflect. he didn't campaign for roy moore. he just moved on to the next thing. you might even see him go down there and barn storm for this candidate. >> there were people who had already voted before these allegations came out. but i do think it is somewhat of a media by yias that there's be so many defenders of roy moore, versus your average voter in alabama who is horrified by pedophilia and i think it's a bias, and i guess i'm a little sensitive to it as a southerner. but just oh, those people in alabama, they'll be totally okay with it and i don't think that's true. >> i have spent some time in alabama and i have faith that the people of alabama will come through, but when i listen to

lee korfman who doesn't believe her, and the governor of alabama said she believed her too, except that she believed it was more important to get a good vote in the senate for the tax bill. >> maybe it's just a partisan issue, things are so starkly blue and red, that people might be able to hold their nose and mark that ballot. >> stable polling is not great in most places and this polling is going to be influchaffected moore's accusers, we have close to a month before election day, we'll see probably some better numbers in the last week or so. but right now, i don't think anybody smart would say that roy moore couldn't win this race. to me, it not -- most of it is margin of error polling and there's so much fluctuation, really small sample sizes. no one knows what's going on

down there in this election. >> do you think moore. >> i think genuinely it could spark a backlash, it could help him out. we're going to have to get through the thanksgiving holiday and see what happens on the backside of that, the question of whether trump decides to campaign for him is going to be a huge issue and where we go in the closing two weeks of this race. are there other accusers? there's still a lot of time, are there other accusers that cool forward? what the media coverage is like. there's too much now to make a decision to see the way the wind is blowing in this race, obviously it's gusting in every direction furiously. >> we're going to pick this conversation back up after the break. and a swift punishment against charlie rose, who's facing accusations of his own. (avo) when you have type 2 diabetes, you manage your a1c,

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women are very special, i think it's a very special time because a lot of things are coming out and i think that's good for our society. and i think it's very, very good for women. and i'm very happy a lot of these things are coming out. and i'm very happy, i'm very happy it's being expose. >> women are very special and i'm very happy it's being exposed. and i'm going to throw my weight as a man accused of sexual misconduct by more than a dozen women behind a man accused of sexual misconduct by nine women. jonathan? >> yes, the president seems to have -- questiwe have seen this and time again where he thinks that the rules of a situation don't apply to him. >> he offers such an astute commentary on the time, women are very special and i'm very, very happy. it. >> he also said it was a special time. he's a gifted or are for as well.

he flips it around and puts it on someone else. we have seen that with hillary clinton time and time again. he has the tremendous ability to compartmentalize or being in denial about accusations that are said against him and he likes to make pronouncements elsewhere. today breaking a weak silence, has now suggested more or less endorsing roy moore, and he did suggest he wants more women to come forward, he was asked about al franken. he kind of passed on that one, he said he wants accusations of more members of congress to come to light. and in particular, if they come to light against democratic members of congress. >> it can you weigh in on what it was like in congress, because we have gotten this news this week, it's been coming out in dribs and drabs, to file a claim and the secrecy around this process. can you speak to that? >> it's a very honorous process,

particularly for staff to be able to file a complaint and it can sometimes take a really long time to resolve. the process is not one that lends itself to being on the side of the victim and the accuser. and so, i think that, you know, right now, i would not be surprised, frankly, if there were many more dribs and drabs over a long period of time of women coming out, women who are staffing women who were former members, speaking out on capitol hill. >> do you think those names should come out? >> i think each woman has to make a decision on her own. i mean we can see that there's still grave danger for women coming forward, look at lee kor corps of -- leigh corfman, this is not a friendly environment. maybe it is more hospitable to groups of women coming forward, which is why i think women are coming forward in groups.

not, you know, two by two, but five by five and ten by ten, because it's not an environment that lends itself if you're coming forward to being safe. and so i don't think we have gotten it right yet. >> that's a really, really good point. and we have jim ruttenberg here who's going to join the panel. i saw you nodding at least, but this idea of what the journalism of the moment has done to rise to the seriousness of the moment. and our former colleague, mark halperin, swept up in this tsunami, but the journalism of the moment that the "new york times" engaged in in their investigationwinestein and royms and most recently charles rose's accusers. i have never seen a more contemporaneous reporting of people who were around them at

the time. so the journalism of the moment has sort of risen to the occasion of sort of expecting the skepticism, expecting men like donald trump to not believe women likeigh corfman. is that just about this sort of -- the hurdles that women have to pass if they're accusing powerful men of something so serious? >> i think if you look at how the accusations against roy moore really started to stick, and it was because when an accuser, when beverly young nelson came out and she had the physical evidence of a yearbook that was signed by roy moore. the standard is so high and the desire is for physical evidence, when at the end of the day, he said, she said, those are the people who know the truth, either you believe the victims or you don't, as you so eloquently put it. >> they're also speaking to their neighbors, and we have

some reaction from folks in alabama, let's watch that. >> roy moore, because i like his standards, i like the way he thinks. he's a conservative, i'm a conservative. and doug jones is exactly the opposite. that's why. >> i'm voting for doug jones and i think he's got a great shot. i sure hope that the people of alabama are smart enough to look up and not align with the party. >> why do they wait 30 or 40 years to bring it up? >> all the stigma around roy moore, that doesn't make him very popular in alabama. >> do you think doug jones has a chance? >> i do. >> people standing by roy moore were white men. there's hope for some of you. i'm just kidding, you know i said that with love. but this question of the hurdles that a victim sort of has to pass and that journalists are

holding anyone accusing a powerful man of doing this to are sort of meeting the moment, would you agree with that? >> well, i think obviously there's been huge structural hurdles and huge -- it's taken enormous courage and bravery for women to come forward. and i think healthily now, those obstacles still economisxist, be seeing now in this historical moment where they're lowering, it's clear it's happening, and people are more -- i mean the roy moore case is a little more -- given his history in the state. there are mo it seems to me one of the big challenges as we come out of what is clearly, again, a water shed moment where we're focused on a lot of people in media, and a lot of people in the entertainment industry, primarily a little bit in politics in the case of roy moore and al franken.

there's clearly a lot more in politics, not only at the national level, but at the state level. i moved into -- there were conservatives all the way back then too. >> al packwood and those whole group of guys. >> this is also going to be happening at the state level, in every state capitol there's going to be things like this. and on wall street and in fortune 500 people. the bigger challenge is going to be how to root it out in a pervasive way, where the power dynamics are similar if not identical. they're similar when men are able to exercise their power over women throughout industry and society. there are those who are never going to get talked about on television. the women in these industries are getting more credibility

because they're so high profile. >> or in blue collar america. >> take your pick. >> i worry about those women. because these stories come out, but there are no mechanisms for those women to come out and show themselves. >> right. right. okay, up next, some surprising comments from charlie rose today just before we learned that he had been fired. [ keyboard clacking ]

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we are talking about the tsunami of sexual harassment and sexual assault charges against powerful men that swept up veteran anchor charlie rose who was today fired by cbs news. the decision to fire rose came less than 24 hours after "the washington post" reported that eight women have accused rose of making unwanted sexual advances, including groping, lewd phone calls and walking around naked

in front of them. all of the women were employees or aspiring employees of the "charlie rose show on pbs and bloomberg. in a statement ahead of cbs news, david rhodes writes, i'm deeply disappointed and angry that people were victimized and that hard working people could see their work undermined. norah o'donnell and gail king reacted to the news. >> i really am still reeling, i got an hour of sleep last night. oprah called me and said are you okay? i am not okay. after reading that article in the post, it was deeply troubling, disturbing and painful for me to read. i think we have to make this matter to women, the women who have spoken up, the women who have not spoken up because they're afraid, i'm hoping that now they will tahave the streng

to speak up too. i have held charlie in such high regard and i'm really struggling because how do you, what do you say when someone that you deeply care about has done something that is so horrible? how do you wrap your brain around that? >> this is a moment that demands a frank and honest assessment about where we stand and in general the safety of women. let me be clear, there is no excuse for this alleged behavior. it is systematic and pervasive. that has to end, this behavior is wrong, period. >> rhodes responded to "the washington post" account, the statement that read, it is essential that these women know that i hear them and that i deeply apologize for my inappropriate behavior. i am greatly embarrassed. i have behaved insensitively at times and i accept responsibility for that, though i do not believe all of these

allegations are accurate. i always felt like i was pursuing shared feelings, although i now realize i was mistaken. here's how he answered questions outside his apartment. >> mr. rhodes, do you want to saying in those accusers, the people that's accusing you all of these wrong doings? >> it's not wrong doings. >> it's not wrong doings, a statement that will be debated. let me start with you, i think a lot of us know a lot of the players, i know norah and gail, i have known them a long time. and there was so much raw emotion in their statements this morning, it was hard to watch. but you covered the media for a job, what do you make of this moment? >> i mean, charlie rhodes, it's huge, but we have had a lot of huge issues this year, with big cases like this, billing o'rei was huge, but it's only going to amplify the problem, i think

we'll see more and more of these waiting to come on. disney pixar's ceo is taking a leave because of these kinds of allegations. >> take me behind the reporting standards. the story that elise and i have covered the most, is probably the roy moore accusers, because it's a political story, there's been a question all along about what donald trump would do, now we have our depressing answer. but now to me, the journalism seems to be following a pattern. the winestein reporting was so detailed, almost like reading a college report with footnotes, "the washington post" reporting had all this county current on the record reporting from friends and relatives who heard of the accounts at the time. are these standards that you have imposed on yourselves because of the stakes? because if you're sued for liable? >> i think it's all of the above. one of the reasons that some of

these stories were so hard to nail and get out there was because of things likes ndas where alleged victims -- >> a lot of women are saying that about trump's accusers. >> someone makes an allegation oftentimes and if the person who's been accused in the misdeed will tie them up in an nda, which means in return for money, you will not speak of this ever again, you will destroy all evidence. some women have done itthrou th the years because they didn't want to drag themselves through the mud. there's reason to do it. but this is a systemic silencing of women, that's bad, it's allowed the behavior to continue. but to get past that, it's hard, but it's very important, because when you get these allegations on the record, they're not going to stick the same way, you want the story to be bulletproof, you want to be fair. but when women are coming out on the record, with corroboration, it's bulletproof and it's having

a giant impact. and that's how stories land. >> what did you think of -- >> charlie said a lot more. >> and he's your former colleague from bloomberg, i thought watching norah and gail, i just thought of them as sort of collateral damage, when mark's revelations came out. i wonder how you felt watching them and what you thought of their words and their performance this morning? >> i think a lot of people who are in the business right now, and watching them, i thought your words were the right words, they were raw and honest about it and anybody, and there are now an increasingly large number of people in this business who have had a colleague or a friend or in some cases a partner who they had a professional relationship with, but it turned out that they were doing things behind the scenes, they were doing things in private that you were unaware of. it's a shock. and that is what i think you saw on their face yesterday, on

their face this morning when you heard gail saying she had this -- she felt a great respect for charlie and worked with him for a long time and was flabbergasted on some level and, have become mortified and also feeling nervous about sympathy for the women who have come forward and said the things they have said. that's an unfortunately increasingly widespread sentiment as more and more of these people come forward. >> it's complicated, we believe the women, but they're not all the same. these stories are not all the same. >> they're not. >> and harvey winestein is sort of over here, like apex predator, hired former massage agent to hold women to ndas, to hold women down, a prominent award winning actress said that he made actresses disappear at the beginning of their career.

there's a spectrum and do you worry that we are, this moment that the tsunami is sort of treating everybody has one? >> i do worry about that. because i think that there is a danger that you think that there's only one solution and i think, you know, it's really important for us to begin to distinguish these things, to distinguish the range of punitive measures that need to be taken against folks. but i also worry that we have had so much that people then become desensitized to it. and there is a danger then that we don't pay attention in the way that we need and we don't make the fixes in the various systems, the various nondisclosure agreements are vindictive because it does silence women. and women on the hill who have to sign these agreements and then the public, for public officials have no way of knowing, what transpired, how

much was paid and why. >> scary stuff. we're going to sneak in a quick break, we'll be right back. every day, on every street, in every town, across america. small businesses show their love to you. with some friendly advice, a genuine smile and a warm welcome they make your town... well, your town. that's why american express is proud to be the founding partner of small business saturday. a day where you get to return that love, because shopping small makes a big difference. so, this saturday get up, get out, and shop small.

taking this story to the political front, the house ethics committee has confirmed it is investigate democratic congressman john conyers, the ranking member of the house judiciary committee, the latest to be accused of sexual misconduct. the allegation comes after a

buzz feed report that claims that a sellingment was reached with an aide who claims she was fired for rejecting advances. congressiers put out a statement saying my office resolved the allegations with an express denial of liability in order to save all involved from the rigors of protracted litigation. that should not be lost in the narrative. the panel is still with us. i'm in the a lawyer but that sounded a lot like the sort of legal mumbo-jumbo that you muck up a process with when you don't want potential misdeeds to be made public. >> just what we were talking about, right. >> right. >> and you get men in these situations that tied these women up in these agreements so we can says we are past it. past it. interestingly, though, the settlements have a flip side for us as journalists in these stories and they leave a money trail. >> right. >> you can see something was serious that he felt exposed and vulnerable on. >> because of the payouts.

>> pay outs, and he said we have to strike some kind of settlement. what he could do is he could say all agreements are off the table, i welcome a full airing, let her speak and forget the agreement. that would take care of that. >> let me ask you, i mean, al franken is sort the one that's not like the others in the political realm in that he was accused of misconduct, he immediately apologized. he called for an ethics investigation into himself. -- and david frum had a great tweet. said who is ready for a world in which democrats force al franken out of the senate while republicans vote roy moore in. that's what i was trying to get at before. we treat them all the seem and meet out the same punishment. how do you hold up as slightly represehensible that the men wh said their behavior was

reprehensible and are for policing themselves. >> i think al franken could have been an important moment for democrats to stake a line in the stand that they are not going to tolerate sexual harassment, sexual assault. because he is a beloved figure among democrats it was easy to just punt the ball -- >> do you think they should have called for his resignation? >> i think so. i think a lot of people tried to minimize that picture of him groping. >> we'll look for that -- >> exactly. groping the woman he was traveling with. but they were on a military cargo plane coming back from afghanistan. as someone when spent a lot of time in war zones and you are in these dangerous areas where you aren't watching your back all the times that kind of showed a fundamental test of al franken's character that he failed. at time when he could have been an ally he instead was making her the butt of the joke. >> do you think that al franken

should resign? >> i agree with the casualty for the ethics committee about you i do think we can't put all of these things in the same basket. i said that before. but you know the fact is we were talking about in a when there was one accuser and now there is a second accuser of al franken. and i think the pattern we have seen in all of these instances is there is never just one. if we are going to use an ethics process, whether it's in the house or senate, it has to be a much more bifurcated process that doesn't take years and years to resolve because the accusers need resolution, so do the members. and really so does the public. i would urge the congress if they are going to think about using ethics as a process it cannot be the ethics process that we have now. >> we found that picture that elise jordan just referenced. do you think this was enough for the democrats to demand al franken's resignation? >> you know, i don't want to make judgment about it. i do think that -- i thought

democrats came out pretty strongly against him that day. and by going for an ethics committee investigation i thought they were trying to take action. i agree with donna that the notion that now there is a second accuser while he was in office which changes the complexion of thing. the more general thing i would like to say is that this is an important moment and largely a salutory moment in this country around this issue. it is the case that one thing we are in danger of losing, we are in danger of losing nuance. nuance is important, right? all of the questions of is it repeated, there a pattern of behavior or is it an isolated incident? that's a question worth asking. was it in the workplace or not in the workplace? that's a question worth asking. did the person actually have power over the woman or was it just sort of skeevy behavior where it's subjective and not clear and outside the workplace. not to excuse any of the behavior. >> no. >> but as you try to read -- there has to be a spectrum,

there is a spectrum between harvey weinstein and row man polandski on one side and someone who got drunk one night and offendsed a woman by hitting on her too hard. there is spectrum. and we are having a hard -- at some point when the dust settles on this a little bit people are going to try to pick through and say okay these are all bad but some are horrifying and deserve the death sentence, the metaphorical death sentence, you should lose your job. and others deserve of these deserve something less than that. i think it's going to take a long time for us to figure out exactly what that spectrum is and what the appropriate penalties are along it. >> women are going to have to lead this conversation. because i think we are sort of entering this moment where women have had their moment. we believe all of the women. but i think there is paralysis now around these conversations. people are so afraid. people who do this for a job are so afraid of saying the wrong thing on this issue. how and when can women start a

conversation about the spectrum and about not lumping all of these men into the same category? >> i think -- >> it's not yet. >> common sense is going to have to be applied, as with everything in life. but i think of all the topic perhaps in all of human history the most fraught is sex. sex and religion, maybe. so it's going to be a tough one. and i certainly thing we need -- we have to have it. but for thing to get better for women and to get better torment but it's going to be a tough one. >> my thanks. we are all out of time. i can't believe the time. i just looked at the clock. my thanks to the panel. that does it for our hour. i'm micolle wallace. mtp daily starts right now with the fabulous katie tur in for chuck todd. if it is tuesday, president trump breaks his silence on roy moore. >> tonight president trump stands by judge moore. >> he denies it