children. we did that with our in tennis. >> it is giving tuesday. it's a big day for you and everybody else. it's a good thing. you so good when you donate. ettore rossetti, thank you. that wraps it up for this hour. i'll see you again at noon eastern. right now it is time for "am joy" with my friend, joy reid. i think there are a lot of alabama voters who are on the fence and then they look at the allegations against al franken, which are wholly separate, but they see democrats sticking by him. to them that's a signal they can stick by roy moore. democrats need to come out much harder against al franken and that would help doug jones. >> good morning. welcome to "am joy." as more and more allegations of sexual conduct surface in entertainment, newsrooms and, yes, on capitol hill, what aboutism is running wild.

that was evan sigfried on our show yesterday. roy moore has been accused by multiple women of making sexual advances against them while they were minors, claims that he denies. what about al franken? >> he has admitted wrongdoing. i think that's a very clear distinction. >> i think that puts them in two different categories. >> i don't know. look, i don't want to speak for al franken. i don't know what happened. i just heard about conyers two minutes ago. as far as franken's concerned, he's going to have to speak for himself. >> so, why is this the stock answer? clearly, republicans are relieved to be able to change the subject from moore or even

donald trump, who alleged he sexually assaulted them. republicans, who tend to double down and democrats, who are often quick to fold. for example, senator franken, when faced with the initial accusation by conservative radio personality leigh ann tweeden of kissing her without her consent and taking this photo, simulating groping her when he was still comedian al franken, quickly apologized and apologized more extensively, which tweeden then accepted. he then called into a senate investigation into his own conduct. and when another woman claimed that he groped her, then two anonymous women claimed that he did the same thing to them, he issued another apology. i've learned from recent stories that in some of those encounters

i crossed the lines and i feel terribly that i have made some women feel badly. for that i am so sorry and want to make sure that never happens again. that is not the way donald trump or roy moore have trooeted the allegations against them, so completely different from the franken allegations that we know of right now that even mentioning them in the same sentence seems absurd. trump, moore and their supporters have doubled down on calling all of their accusers liars. the republicans that democrats won't do that, that they'll become afraid that any allegation of sexual harassment will be portrayed by the same as trump and moore, let's face it, by us in the media. and that could undermine democratic attacks on trump and moore. so franken needs to go over the side. democrats need to be as tough on him as they are on accused pedophile roy moore. republicans know that's how democrats tend to react to

things so what about franken is their go-to line. michelle bernard, president of the bernard center for women, kareem jean-pierre. i was reading overnight last night a piece on, i think it was, the week and this man named moore, trump and al franken. it turred to me this idea that if everything is the same, nothing matters. right? >> right. >> if all of these things are exactly the same then it's hard to see a degree of difference in them. so nothing matters. >> this is what men do. >> it's all the same. >> i wonder if you feel like democrats are missing this thing about republicans. which is democrats missed a chance to draw a line in the

sand. are they missing the fact that if al franken had resigned, republicans wouldn't say look how the democrats have moral authority. they would say they're the ones that clearly have the problem. because he resigned. >> they resigned and we deny it. so we're clean t will never end that way. i don't like that it seems that what al franken did -- he did admit to doing something to make these women uncomfortable. >> of course. >> deeply reported news stories about roy moore's victims compared to a conservative talk show host who has made these claims that were then amplified by roger stone and the whole pizza gate. >> who knew about it in advance. >> i ran into roger stone. he happened to come into my favorite restaurant in harlem. i don't know why. but he showed up there and i asked him. he said everyone at fox news knew in advance. how did that happen? >> leigh ann tweeden is a

long-time friend of sean hannity. >> sure. >> so she's shooe is somebody who would know the roger stone world. >> in this ecosphere of manufacture i manufacturing outrage against democrats and spreading it. so, you know, i have some suspicions about it. and i don't think that at this pointal franken needs to resign. i just don't. >> the other thing that happens here, corrine, the media plays a part in this. i don't want to speak about us as if we're one lump sum but we have to make sure that we are balancing out and make them equal. huffington post did an article -- i'm sorry. you had the huffington -- i think it was new york post.

sorry. rupert murdoch new york post does an article in which they show al franken in a comedic pose with ariana huffington and then they claim in that article that he's groping ariana huffington and then she has to come out and say no, he's not groping me any more than i'm strangling him in this article. all these things are not the same, him taking a weird photo with me is not the same as him taking a weird photo with leigh ann tweeden. >> the media is in a weird conundrum right now n a normal republican-controlled congress, i guess, you would want to have a -- represent both sides equally. but we're not. this is not normal. this is an abnormal time.

we have a sexual predator as the president of the united states. who people lie to him. and so to the point of sexual harassment of al franken, what he did was appalling. the difference is, he has apologized. donald trump has not. and the reason why donald trump loves roy moore is because roy moore is taking literally a page out of donald trump's playbook. which is attack, deny, let the time run out. and also say hey, i might frivolously do this lawsuit against all these women. there's one more layer i want to take this down to, joy. if roy moore was a black man, donald trump would not believe him. there's that part of it, too. donald trump is saying that doug jones is bad on crime. you have, on one hand, doug jones who stood up to the kkk. and on the other hand you have roy moore, who attacked minors, sexually assaulted minors. in that scenario, there's only

one criminal there. that's the pedophile, roy moore. that is donald trump's way. everything that is key, everything that is major, everything that is big that he does has this awful, racist element to it. >> ask the central park five whether he believes people who claim they're innocent. they were children. they were minors the same age as roy moore's victims. they proclaimed their innocence even after dna proved their innocence, donald trump didn't take their word for t he didn't believe them even after they were exonerated. i believe there say difference in the way the right and left handles these situations. two pieces both from the washington post. bunch of female staffers. al franken, nobody is condoning what he did, his dumb behavior when he was a xeedian. you had people he works with. people who are his colleagues, bunch of staffers come out, sign an open letter, 60 staffers supporting al franken, saying he

always treated us with respect. in the same paper in "the washington post" an op-ed came out and slammed those women for doing that, simply saying they were excusing him. it's unclear what the letter seeks to prove, this writer said. the writers acknowledge that franken mistreated tweeden. the number of women the man didn't assault doesn't matter if there are others that he did. there are a number of people that the zodiac killer didn't murder. now al franken is the equivalent of the zodiac killer. >> from the op-ed, to people standing up for roy moore in alabama, for all the people confusing the issues. ium -- number one, we know, in any form, sexual harassment is abhorrent. whether democrat or republican.

more importantly, all these people focusing on al franken, one of the most important statements we should take away today is to remember, al franken's words. he apologized for any woman that he might have harmed in any way. the key word being woman. with roy moore, we are talking about children. any man who reaches out to disturb a child in her trigonometry class, bring her to the principal's office to ask her on a date clearly has a problem. people are mixing apples with oranges. we are talking about a crime here. of course, he didn't -- he's not going to come out and say, yes, i did it, because he would be pleading guilty. people should look at this as the fact that roy moore, in one way or another, is taking the fifth. he's not going to say to the world that he committed a crime repeatedly. and anyone who is looking for him to say that he did so is barking up the wrong tree. i'm with mitch mcconnell. i never thought i would say this. but i believe the women.

>> nor will donald trump. donald trump is in the exact same position and he did admit it. he bragged about touching and kissing women that didn't give him permission to do so. yet we now have a new article -- i believe the original reporting is in "the washington post." but this is in "the hill," saying that the tape may not be authentic, retroactively denying something that he actually admitted to on tape. so, isn't it the case, noel -- not to lump all republicans but donald trump is not denying his admission that he groped women on the tape f al franken were to resign wouldn't your side just say see, our guy never admitted it. it's only the democrat who admitted and resigned. therefore the whole problem is al franken. >> well -- >> noel. >> i'm sorry, i just want to -- we keep saying, for example, like donald trump is the face of the republican party and he's,

you know, the man who gave us genitalia grabbing on the "access hollywood" tape. if roy moore wins, not only is donald trump the face of the republican party but roy moore becomes the face of the republican party and the way that republicans define manhood is a man is a man if he humiliates women, attacks women, little girls, has no respect for women or our daughters. it's horrible. >> noel, wouldn't republicans, if al frank erne were somehow to resign or be pushed out, wouldn't republicans just say that proves that the real predator, the apex predator is al franken and write off, continue to write off roy moore and donald trump? >> well, joy, you know, i think with al franken, al franken's charges were not as grotesque and severe as what roy moore is being accused of. >> not even close. >> you're right. not even close. it's the bigger picture. it sends a signal here.

while al franken quickly apologized and said let's do an ethics investigation on me, the thing is that. it sends a signal to the victims that an apology is all they need and it's done away with. i think that everybody, you know -- >> hold on, noelle, the victim in this case accepted the apology on television. >> right. >> this is not somebody who wants -- putting roy moore and al franken in the same category, one is accused of serial child molestation. i'll go back to my statement in the beginning. if everything is the same, nothing matters f we're basically saying these two things are equivalent, right, and if al franken apologizes for a stupid thing he did with leigh ann tweeden and she accepts it on tv that's still not enough? >> no. what i'm saying is that it sends a signal to other victims. it send ace signal to people who have been groped, they've been harassed and had moves made on

them that they did not want, that they thought were under pressure, that they thought was inappropriate. it sends a signal to victims that if they get an apology that's all they need. >> what signal did it send when republicans continued to praise and defend dennis hastert and he was speaker of the house? did that send a message? >> are you talking to me, joy? >> yeah. >> i couldn't hear. dennis hastert, that was gross and that was horrible. i think what roy moore is doing to the republican party, in general, is sick. i think it's horrible. and if you want to cast blame on anyone, don't cast it like on republicans. cast it on governor ivy, joy. why didn't she shut this down? this is a front and center news story every time you turn on any of the major three cable networks. they are talking about roy moore. this does a disservice to republicans. governor ievy could have shut this down and given the good

republican voters, in general the voters of alabama, a choice. a choice. now they're having to sit here and make a choice between do i want a democrat platform, which i don't agree with, or do i want to vote for a guy that's morally bankrupt? >> i would say, with all due respect, that shouldn't be a choice. that should be a very easy choice and republicans are choosing to make it harder than it is. we have to end it here. because we're running out of time. thank you both for being here. great discussion. up next, the trump administration's plan to wreck the internet as we know it. stay with us. my experience with usaa has been excellent. they always refer to me as master sergeant. they really appreciate the military family, and it really shows. we've got auto insurance, homeowners insurance. had an accident with a vehicle, i actually called usaa before we called the police. usaa was there hands-on very quick very prompt. i feel like we're being handled as people that actually have a genuine need. we're the webber family and we are

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i'm going to pose a hypothetical to you. let's say comcast created a new television series and that competed with a netflix series very similarly. if these rules go away, how is there not an incredible incentive for comcast to slow netflix down, coming into my house, and make their video, comcast video very robust? >> under that hypothetical, one of the things that's important to remember is that it is a hypothetical. that we don't see evidence of that happening in the marketplace on a widespread level. >> there have been some examples of isps blocking certain things. google wallet, skype was blocked. one canadian telecom blocked pro-labor sites. it's not like this doesn't

happen. >> this past week, the former associate general counsel at r verizon and the current chairman of the federal communications commission, revealed his plan to dismantle net neutrality. you probably heard the term, the basic idea is that broad band internet action cess treated like a utility. therefore, it can be regulated to ensure that no matter who your internet service provider or isp is, whether you use spectrum, at&t, verizon or comcast, they can't pick favorites among the content you want to view, based on isp's relationship to the providers of that content. for example, if verizon is your internet service provider, they can't restrict your access or slow down your connection to google because verizon owns rooif rival yahoo! and would prefer you use them for your searches. slowing down your access to it

or charging tolls to make you pay more for access. a republican, appointed to head the fcc by donald trump has long opposed these regulations. now that he's in charge and republicans have a 3-2 majority on the commission, he is in position to get his way, but not without objections. fcc commissioner jessica rosen-morsel. we did invite the commissioner on the show to discuss net neutrality today. but he did not reply. hope i didn't butcher your name. >> no. thank you. >> you wrote an op-ed piece i'm on the fcc. please stop us from killing net neutrality. we'll post it to our social immediatea. this is the open internet experience we all know and it's a big part of why american's economy is the envy of the world. your provider would have the

power to choose which voices online to amplify and which to cens rochlt. >> we've not had widespread blocking and throttling because we've had net neutrality protections in place. nonetheless we have seen some blocking of internet voice calling and services like skype and google wallet. and we do know that broad band providers can do this technically and have the business incentive to do so. these rules that have been in place have prevented them from doing this on a broader scale. >> is it any coincidence -- my producers are putting together this segment, those who are opposed to net neutrality are at&t, verizon, charter, comcast, spectrum. in favor of net neutrality, content providers, facebook, google, amazon, netflix.

is that coincidental? >> no. >> or do you think there's a reason that split is that way? >> 22 million people have written the federal communications commission. vast balk buck of them have said they do not want net neutrality to go away. bunch of high-powered lobbyists and lawyers in washington trying to convince us otherwise but it's really important we listen to the american public. >> we all know that commissioner pachlt i is formerly the associate counsel of verizon. his history is well known. he is in favor of things like big mergers and consolidation. he worked at the justice department for a while. he worked at verizon. the reason for this change is a pro-corporate mind-set among people that agree with him as opposed to skern for consumers and competition. >> i do not know what's in his head. our internet economy in the

united states is the envy of the world and it is built on a fundamental notion of openness. if we take away network neutrality, we really start to gut some of that openness and change things. your broad band provider will be able to block websites or censor online content. i can't think of anybody who thinks that's a good thing. >> what are the other pieces we prepare for the record this segment a look at another country that does not have net neutrality. this is portugal. this is an example of sort of a charging sheet, a consumer in portugal could get for internet service. it looks convoluted. telecom company is charging you a monthly fee the equivalent of $29.95 a month and there are all these little bundles f you want to use google, yahoo! flicker, youtube, you pay an extra premium, bbc is an additional $5. cnn, an additional $5, on and on

and on. they can essentially make you pay more for each little bundle of content that you get. is that the future we're looking at? consumers having to pay more if they want the content that isn't owned by the provider? >> yeah. i'm afraid that without network neutrality, the internet experience we now know, which is open, where you can go and do what you want online, will look a lot more like cable television. you get your provider choosing which sites can you access, what you can watch and what you can do. >> that is a scary thought. and we really appreciate you being here, commissioner jessica rosenworcel. >> thank you. i want to turn to my panel now, ucla professor and ovik roy. ovik, why, on earth, is it better to have americans experience on the internet be more like experience with cable tv as the commissioner just said where the internet service

provider chooses the menu of what you get to watch and they can say no to the content they don't want you to have or charge you more for it? >> yeah, joy. these so call neutrality rules have established -- by the way, they're only two years old. we had the internet from 1993 to 2017 without the rules and people were happy with the explosion of innovation and competition that emerged out of that experience. by the way, it came out of clinton era regulatory agreements where they said hey, let's let the internet be open and competition flourish. that's what's happened. so here in this situation, with the fcc rules that came out of the obama administration, they actually suppressed competition. you're not forced, like in portug portugal, to only go with one internet service provider. you can go to any internet service provider you want, especially in the future as more and more internet service providers are wireless rather than driven by broad band. these rules have increased the cost of starting a new internet

service provider. you can't choose. if you want to pay more to have a service in which youtube, google and others have unfettered access to your bandwidth, you can do that. maybe t-mobile or verizon would say we're going to steer you to yahoo! because we're getting a discount from them and pass that on to you in the term of fees. why should youtube have a monopoly over video? let's have more competition. powerful internet companies in america, amazon, google, netflix, they support so-called net neutrality because it enhances their oligarchy status. >> you misrepresented the example i gave. they're essentially saying if you don't use yahoo! we're going to charge you more or make yahoo! slow. it's the opposite. you misrepresented what i said.

>> that would be a discount. >> no, it's the opposite of what i said. they're saying we're going to charge you more if you don't use the service that we own. >> they would lose customers then. no one would buy that service. the only way that business model is viable is if they're charging you less for your internet service to provide that service. otherwise, another competitor will come in and do it better. >> i want to let ramesh in. you're literally giving the opposite of what i said. so let's go to ramesh. >> okay. well, this is not a setup that actually will support competition on any level at all. this is a setup that's going to support large corporations and their lobbyists as the commissioner just said. the internet fundamentally represents the democratization of information. it's essential to a functioning democracy. if you, for example, joy, are an

independent journalist, you're reporting on very important stories but because you're going to get charged a great amount to even put your account online it's not going to be available to people. this is blocking off independent journalism. but it's also going to harm in a great manner small businesses, which represent still the majority of new jobs created in this country, which have now moved to e this is not a pro-competition rollback. this is anti-competition and pro-oligarchy. >> the opposite again is true. independent journalism isn't bandwidth hogging. if you're writing a blog post at the huffington post or wherever, that's not the things that are demanding bandwidth. video content in particular.

>> so you think those companies should be charged a toll? >> it's the other way around. remember, if consumers have the choice like they before 2015, they can choose an internet service provider to do what you are saying should do and charge more for that or discounts in a form of lower monthly payments. if they want netflix to be faster and pay a lower for for that, let that innovation happen, let that competition happen. right now we've lowe allowed for netfliks, youtube and google to have monopolies. we should want those industries to have competition. >> i'm going to give ramesh the final word on it. >> thank you. >> isn't that much like saying if i hike up the price at milk at the store and then discounted 10%, i'm giving you a discount? ramesh, your witness. >> exactly.

the points that this is sort of a -- part of their business model relies on the long tail of net neutrality. all this content that they make accessible. independent journalists and companies are requiring to share content often through video and it's extremely important. it just comes down to this fundamental issue. we he what we know about love about t it's an open platform, it's different from newspaper and we've seen increase in isps since the net neutrality policies were implemented. this is extremely important, a fundamental treasure we have to protect with the internet. >> i think people should continue reading up about this. there's still a comment period open. millions of people have opposed

it. this vote is going to happen soon. hopefully, everybody at home will read up about it. rames shchlt and avick, thank you for being here. disturbing new details in the la david johnson story. that's next.

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up next, disturbing new discoveries in the niger ambush attack nearly two months ago have family and friends wondering what happened to sergeant la david johnson?

they tell me that he's in a severe wrap, like i won't be able to see him. i need to see him so i will know that that is my husband.

i don't know nothing. they won't show me a finger, a hand. i know my husband's body from head to toe. and they won't let me see anything. >> nearly two months after an ambush in niger killed four u.s. military members, the circumstances of which are still murky, la david johnson became separated. she was never allowed to view her husband's body and she and her congresswoman, fredricka wilson, also a long-time family friend, have been raising questions ever since about why and just what happened to sergeant johnson and why the u.s. military and the trump administration have not been more forthcoming about it. colonel jake jacobs, and intelligence analyst and jack rice, former cia special agent. colonel jack, i'm going to come to you first on this. just in your -- looking at these events, the fact that the wife was not allowed to see the body

ever, was not given the option, is that normal, first of all, for her not being given the option? >> i don't know what the rules are now but many years ago the next of kin had the option of viewing the remains but in circumstances like this, where the survivor assistance officer had information that the remains were too gruesome to view, you would advise the next of kin that was a bad idea. >> so we assume this was obviously gruesome if separate remains are being found this long afterwards. >> right. >> can you sort of -- obviously we don't know what happened. what does it seem like what happened to la david johnson? >> we know he got separated from the rest of the unit and the speculation is -- and probably fairly accurate -- that he was captured and then tortured and then dismembered and perhaps even beheaded. that's one of the reasons why the government -- it should have recommended that the remains not be viewed. but that's probably why. >> that's probably why. and it's tormenting for the

family, obviously, navid. they want to know what happened. but as jack just described what happened is probably pretty gruesome. is it unusual in your view for congress not to know what happened? congresswoman wilson, who represents this family, doesn't know either. >> joy, this is part of the larger discussion, the context of the authority to use military force. we have this essentially rubber stamp that allows the military to go where they want to post 9/11. affiliated forces of al qaeda that, gives them a wide latitude. it's a disturbing thing, coupled with the news that came this week, joy, with the state department being gutted. we're going to rely much more on the military. if we don't have diplomats that's a major, major problem. this whole context is disturbing. why were they there? were they well equipped, given proper intelligence? it fits into the context of authority to use military force. is it ever going to be reviewed? >> jack rice, the other jack, jack rice, you had a situation where this is an area where congresswoman wilson has been

very concerned about things like boko haram. we have the understanding it was not necessarily boko haram group but there are a lot of terrorist-related stuff happening. we don't know much about this mission and discovered it because of this. when the original story came out on cnn.com it said three soldiers were killed. so there was not even an acknowledgement at first that there were four of them. is this level of rolling disclosure normal in your view? >> i've seen it before. that's always my concern. the real problem that we have here, joy, is that there needs to be transparency when it comes to this issue. this is a family that has sacrificed everything. they have the right to know everything. i understand the concept of operational security. i even understand if you don't have an answer. fine. go to the family and say, i'm really sorry. we just don't know. but when you simply say i'm sorry, ma'am, it's national security, the problem is that that simply is not good enough.

>> and, colonel jack, there was this conceit during the obama administration that the president was too reluctant to talk about terrorism. he was too reluctant to call things what they were. this feels like a terrorism-related event, right, that we're getting no information about. it's clear we're going to get more information. it's just dribbling out, little by little. can the administration hide behind the terrorism thing without making the mention of the terrorism thing? >> no. i think eventually you'll get all the information. likelihood is that there are several investigations being undertaken right now. one may be an investigation, after-action report in this case and maybe even an article 32 investigation, which is the military equivalent of a grand jury procedure. all these are going to take some time. i think the administration and defense department doesn't want to say anything until it has a pretty good handle on exactly what's going on. it may very well be that there

will be nothing further to add. at that point, they can't hide -- nobody can hide behind anything anymore. these were advisers, training indigenous forces. probably nothing untoward here except it's possible that the enemy knew, had a spy in the organization, they knew where they were and that's the reason -- that's the way in which they were ambushed in the first place. i think that's ultimately what's going to come out of this. >> very quickly to jack and naveed, what is the one thing you would want to know if you were looking at an investigation here? >> at this point i want to see exactly who it was that was the attacker in this case. if they had contacts, as jack ja jacobs said, if they had somebody on the inside, islamic state, al qaeda, if it was boko haram. who is the operating force and how much intelligence do they have and, frankly, why don't we

have more? >> reporte . >> naveed, what would you want to know? >> i'll go back to what the colonel said. this should be a case study of how not to inform the next of kin, how to do things in an undignified manner. that's what i would push back on. >> jack rice, colonel jack jacobs and naveed jamali, thank you. "the new york times" gets dragged for a glowing profile of american nazis. i love you, droolius caesar, but sometimes you stink.

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she made a split-second decision that changed everything. >> i just grabbed the gun and i shot him. >> from the inside she looks inside herself from the circumstances that shaped her. >> it's not only hurting a baby, you're hurting whoever that baby hurts when it turns into the terror that it's going to turn into. >> this week celebrities, including rihanna, have taken to social media to champion cyntoria brown when she shot and killed a man who took her to her home and paid her for sex. she was tried as an adult and charged with first degree murder and aggravated robbery. she killed alan in order to steal his money and guns.

what the jury never heard was the story of brown's life up to that point. born to a mother who drank every day of her pregnancy, the repeated rapes, emotional and physical abuse at the hands of a 24-year-old drug dealer and pimp who forced brown into prostitution. today 13 years into a life sentence in tennessee brown has earned an associate's degree and is described as supporters as a model prisoner. she won't be eligible for parole until she's at least 67 years old which supporters, including one of the prosecutors responsible for keeping her in prison, who later became her professor, says is too high a price to pay for a reckless decision made by a sex trafficking victim when she was under age. joining me now is cyntoria brown's attorney charles bones. let's talk about the original trial. why is it that the jury was not allowed to hear about this young woman's life? there's a story in the national scene, very lengthy. we'll put it on our social

media. it goes extensively into her life growing up and the abuse she suffered. why didn't the jury hear that? >> well, thank you for having me, joy. this has been a case that we've been involved in for seven years on the appeal of the initial decision. we weren't involved in the case when it was tried. she was not allowed to testify in that case and her lawyers at the time made the decision to not put her on the stand because she was a really, really dysfunctional person. actually, acting with a brain of a 10 or 11-year-old. so we think that was a mace sis. we've taken that position. so far the courts have taken that position and confirmed her

conviction. >> one of the people who helped confirm that was preston shiv who is quoted in this story in the tennessee scene saying this. he would find out the depraved shape she was in at the time of the murder. he had discovered the things that had been done to her and why she would think a stark naked 43-year-old man would go for a gun. before this he had successfully argued against her. she deserved to remain in prison for most if not all of her life. i think he's left prosecuting after that. does the change of mind of a prosecutor help your case? can he testify for her? >> you know, that probably will not be admitted but preston has been a very courageous advocate for cyntoia since he learned. he was teaching her in prison. he won't be allowed to testify,

but we think his statements and his outreach will be hopefully very effective in our petition to the governor for commutation of her sentence this year. >> well, you know, i appreciate you, charles bone. we're in this moment where we're thinking about the roy moore accusations which is obviously completely separate, but of the abuse of teenagers by adult men is sort of a thing these people are thinking about. we appreciate you coming on and telling us about this story. thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you very much. up next, the tv president picks side. more "am joy" after the break.

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you have some great networks. i must tell you, fox has treated me fairly. fox. treated me fairly. they've treated me fairly. hey, i'll let you know. you know what, some day they might not treat me fairly and hannity, how good is hannity? he's a great guy and he's an honest guy. and fox and friends in the morning is the best show and it's the absolute most honest show. and it's the show i watch. >> wow. on saturday donald trump played hukster for fox news promoting the news network he loves the very, very most as he went on the attack against one of the

ones he hates most. fox news is much more important in the united states than cnn but outside the u.s. cnn international is still a major source of fake news. the outside world does not see truth from them exclamation point. trump's fox adoration is a mutual love affair returned in kind by the folks he turns to for advice like judge jeani jeanine pirro. it's someone he turns to for advice on political and policy matters. interviews with the daily beast, six sources from trump world describe pirro as a trump whisperer, someone he sees as a good friend and war time ally and someone it seems who can be counted on to meet with the emperor. he met with trump to add a few lashes to attorney general jefferson sessions for failing to feed -- to heed her call for investigation into conservative

media's favorite conspiracy theory, uranium one. among other topics in the trump/pirro were a few other parts of trump's obsession. hillary clinton. barack obama. trump listens to pirro, shawn hannity, and conspiracy theorist alex jones among others which means from their lips to trump's ears the far right fringe has moved into the center of american political power. joining me is msnbc political contributor, tim o'brien. eric bowler and michelle bernard, president of the bernard center for women, politics and public policy. i will go to you first on this, tim, as the trump biographer at the table. donald trump when he tweeted these attacks on cnn which happened to coincide coincidentally with vladimir putin forcing foreign news

organizations to declare themselves foreign agencies, foreign agents, this was noted by two interesting figures, john mcclauf lynn, former fbi director and general michael hayden who used to run the nsa and the cia. they tweeted the following. mclaughlin. if you favor cnn or fox, you may be numb and no longer capable of outrage. scare kwi if that's our new normal. hayden said if this is who we are or who we have become i have wasted 40 years of my life. until now it was not possible for me to coop receive of an american president capable of such outrageous assault on truth, a free press and the first amendment. >> they're propagandists. they're agenda driven. putin is much more sophisticated about it than trump is. >> yeah. >> trump is essentially propagandizing to feed his own

ego. putin prop pagan diezs to fit his agenda. trump is emotional and deeply needy. one of the reasons i think he obsesses have the media is because he has this reservoir of need to be the center of attention. >> he has in the past pretended to be his own publicist in order to plant positive what he saw as favorable media stories, including about his sexual affairs. >> that he was a man about town, richer than people thought. all of this stuff is a reminder that the president is a 7-year-old grown old. when he's stroking the media he's stroking the media to build up a sense of himself as wealthy, intellectually adept and physically attractive because he's deeply insecure about all of those things. >> he's not just using his stroking of the media to build his own ego, he promotes fox because fox promotes him. he slams cnn because cnn won't promote him. >> right. so he's attacking cnn on twitter while he's sicking his

department of justice to block a cnn sale of time warner. >> that's correct. >> and a couple of people have said your tweets are now part of this anti-trust case. you can't have the president of the united states denouncing a media news organization while your department of justice is trying to block a deal. i mean, it's so transparent what he's trying to do. >> you can't? >> well, he's going to. i think a judge is going to look at that very specifically. again, what tim says, this cartoonish insecurity. he has this endless need for validation and affirmation. most people turn to friends and family for that. >> right. >> he turns to the media. >> yeah. >> which is bizarre. and, again, you know, when he was a new york figure he got great press. he was treated as this pop icon, as this brilliant businessman. i think he expected after the election he was going to get that type of media coverage again and it's just not going to happen. >> he's turning, joan, in some cases, if he can't get it from cnn and "the new york times," he's obsessed with "the new york times." >> yes. >> we'll talk about that in a

little bit, but he's now turning to fringe media to get it. mag pill -- maga pill which people haven't heard about. >> until today. >> until he retweeted them about his accomplishments. i didn't know i had done that much. maga pill is an insane organization that promotes conspiracy theories, pizza gate. he's turning to that for validation. >> it's not surprising at this point, joy. he's gone on info wars. you know, he's talked about what a great guy alex jones is. this has become his he cecosyst. he's created a new medium terrarium. he's now after individuvidly se out. he doesn't have the slightest subprotective filter. whoa, mr. president, really.

just don't tweet maga pill. come on. >> right. yeah. >> you're crossing a line. no, there are no lines anymore. it's really kind of scary. >> michelle, part of what he's doing, because donald trump's following is so devoted and all slavishly devoted to him, when he says maga spill the news, they say maga pill is the news. if he says only fox is real, they'll say only fox is real. they'll repeat whatever he says. jeanine pirro, alex joan, shawn hannity, they're not just media figures, they are advisers. they're actually in the white house advising him on policy. have you ever heard of any such thing even in a conservative administration? >> absolutely not. like i keep going back to a tweet the washington post had a year or so ago during the campaign season when donald trump short of spurred on by carter at vanity fair remarking

that the president had small hands and referring to him as a small fingered bulgarian. actually went on air in february of 2016 during a debate to say that, you know, if you have small hands, something else must be small and trust me there's nothing wrong there. i'm paraphrasing. so in all of it we've never seen anything like this before and here's what's really the irony about it. we have a president who is incessantly talking about the fake news media but also had, you know, as the washington post reported clubs from south florida to scotland, trump clubs that had a fake "time magazine" news cover with then, you know, not even candidate trump but the person who was heading ""celebrity apprentice"" on the coverage with headlines taken from another issue of "time magazine" sported all over his clubs for people to actually think that donald trump was -- you know, was so, quote, unquote, establishment that he actually was on the cover of

"time magazine" and then the trump organization had to admit that it was a fake news story. so we have a president that is so offended by fake news media that he hangs a fake magazine all over his clubs. >> his obsession to be onlegend. there's an annual tweet asking why he's not man of the year. this year he actually pretent tended that he declined. >> they had never spoken to him. >> they had never spoken to him. >> right. his office is wallpapered with magazine covers of himself going back to the 1980s. his office is almost like this relic of a 1980s nightmare which he's never graduated from. the furniture, the magazines, his sense of himself. he wears the same clothes he wore in the 1980s and he has this sensibility that if you are anointed on a magazine cover, that means you've arrived. >> it is interesting because, eric, he has all of these chach can is of what he thinks are

respectability in manhattan. >> right. >> it does feel like that is what all of the gravitational pull is. i need all of these. i need an all gold palace. i need "the new york times" to write glowing things about me. >> right. >> these check off boxes of what he thinks they mean now i am respected. >> the new york -- that was his goal in new york, right? he got great play in the tabloids. "the new york times" i think kind of rolled their eyes for 20 years on trump. they kind of didn't take him seriously. everyone in the business press except tim o'brien went along with the charade that he was worth $8 billion. he had it great. he had a reality tv show. he had the tabloids, local press loving him. and i think tim's right. he hasn't graduated -- i think when he got to d.c. we're going to do new york city media all over again. >> that's right. >> it just doesn't happen. so joan says he's gravitating to these completely fringe, crazy, painful sites looking for any kind of boost whatsoever. >> still living in new york. he's still essentially in new

york media figure transplanted in washington. >> it's not surprising to me that he has media figures that are his close advisers because the whole thing is about show and spectacle. you know, he did get that from the beginning. that's all we're getting and so it makes sense to me that he wants these people to tell him what they see and how to -- and then how to turn it around and project what he wants them to see and what he wants his fan base to see. it all makes a sort of sense. it makes a sense -- kind of sense that he's insulating himself from reality. as reality gets grimmer and grimmer and people are being indicted, people are marching in and out of interviews, whether it's mueller or whether the house and senate investigative committees. reality has got to be pretty cold for donald trump. >> it's got to be cold for him. michelle, at the same time though he -- donald trump is in a lot of ways the prototypical fox news viewer. he's in the age demographic, the ethics demographic.

he's authentic in that he does channel their own skepticisms about real media being all allied against them, not just him. so i wonder if the fact that you do have this symbiosis, that fox is willing to go along with, is actually sort of harmful in a bigger way because donald trump is in a way undermining trust in the mainstream media by saying it isn't real, only this media that's nice to me is real. >> it's absolutely harmful because there is a difference between being, quote, unquote, fair and balanced, meaning that you actually explain to the american public fact from fiction, being averse is being fake in terms of what is fair and balanced. i think there was a study done years ago that i read about in terms of who people get their sources of news from and if i'm correct, people who get their news source from fox generally only look at fox news. many other people get their news sources from a wide variety of places. if you're looking at one network

and you only get a skewed view of what the reality is of what's happening whether it's in domestic policy, foreign policy, any issue from roy moore and the way he treats young girls -- treats little girls and how seann hannity interviews him versus looking at many, many sources of news, you're going to have a very, very different view of the reality of the country that we live in and ultimately it destroys our democracy and it destroys our republic if only a small fraction of the country really understands what is happening in the world that we live in today. >> exactly. you know, just coincidentally that is something vladimir putin wants. i have to talk about "new york times." "the new york times" sometimes, i feel, tim, feeds back to that. actually kind of goes along with it in a sense, that there is a symbiotic relationship between the two of them. on the one hand, they are the new york accountability press and on the other hand there is a devotion to kind of giving a nod

to trump and trumpism. i don't know, maybe i'm just seeing that. >> well, pardon me, i think, you know, trump has always fetish eyes at the establishment. he railed against the establishment gop but he wanted to be embraced by it. >> right. >> "the new york times" to him is the good housekeeping seal of approval. he's a kid from queens who looked across the river and saw that attention from "the new york times" as having arrived. i think the times is a big complex news organization that has different reporters covering things in different ways. it's not monolithic. i think the times has led a lot of the coverage recently on trump. i think there's been good, aggressive coverage from the times. i think during the past during the election i think most of the mainstream media was slow to come at trump as both a serious candidate and to look at his business history in a serious way. >> i'll throw that out to this table. is the media taking donald trump seriously yet or is he still being treated in a sense as an

object of entertainment? >> i think it's both. a lot of news organizations, including the times, are trying to have it both ways. there are reporters who do keep a line open to him and therefore in some ways are maybe not as tough on him as other parts of the newsroom. i mean, i think we see that with television as well. even cnn, which he hates, i think has period particularically tried particul ical -- periodically tried to suck up to him. all of the stories why we need to understand trump voters and nobody is going out, except you and me, asking black women why are -- >> and "vogue." >> -- black women so smart and fabulous that you saw what this man was? 94% of you women voted for hillary clinton. >> those stories of black women looking longingly out the window, eric, wondering what they were. >> i was one of them. i want to throw my hat in. i said, we got it right, you got it wrong. >> absolutely. a profile of you -- "new york

times." wake up, "new york times." up next, the afore mentioned "new york times" is being dragged over their really gauzily weird profile of an american nazi. stay with us. welcome! how's it going? hi! okay, so you've got two friends here. yes. this is the j.d. power award for dependability. now i want you to give it to the friend that you think is most dependable. ohhhh. ughh. wow.

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so you don't miss your favorite show. and with just a single word, find all the answers you're looking for. because getting what you need should be simple, fast, and easy. download the xfinity my account app or go online today. "the new york times" is getting dragged by its readers after publishing this gauzy

profile. the article is being denounced as an attempt to humanize neonaziism. let's start from reading a little bit from this article. it's called the voice of hate in america's hartland. it has a picture of a guy in the supermarket shopping. mr. hobiter, 29, is a welder by the trade. he's not a star so much as a committed foot soldier, an organizer, an occasional podcast guest on a website called radio arianne. in person his midwestern manners would please anyone's mother, joan. what in the world -- >> i hope my mother would see through his midwestern manners, joy. >> he's not a leader. he's just a foot soldier. he's just -- he's not even a podcast host, just a guest. >> just an occasional guest. >> why is he being profiled? >> i don't know. it is like this paper in search of a story that it missed in

2016 it believes. its leadership has said so and so we get this continuing series of profiles of these hateful people who are really only distinguished by their hate yet there's a search for meaning, for what motivates them. it's shocking that this young man was not raised in poch verdi poverty. he has a working class and the kind of jobs that we say the trump voters lost these jobs. he's got that job. he's a welder but he hates, nonetheless, and so it really was a story in search of something it found and, therefore, maybe it sits in your computer for a few months until you find it. >> right. >> but instead it's published. it just feels like an effort to redeem this hateful person and make it somehow okay. >> yeah. you know, it's interesting, michelle. the statement "the new york

times" we asked the first statement. they said white supremacy is a major area of coverage of our national correspondents at the time which is a sad commentary on the state of our country. i get the criticism. my outrage is directed at the fact that bigotry is going mainstream which is what this piece was trying to describe. but, you know, i don't know that they described it going mainstream, michelle. i feel like they just gave this guy a free piece of publicity. >> that's how it feels. i mean, when you read the article, like i get it. i read it with the understanding that they were trying to explain to people that racism is becoming normalized in the era of trump. however, you have to be a thinking person to understand that and it should have been made more obvious that we live in dangerous times and the person who's your next door neighbor could be a rabid racist. that is lost on many people. but the way it was written, it

seemed to glorify everything about this person's lifestyle and his view of the country that we live in. the statement that the "new york times" gave you -- gave the show in response to your inquiry did not come across in that article at all. >> you know, eric, charlie wertzel, the reporter who actually did the story, confesses in his writeup about why he did it, that he actually didn't get much out of the article. t they interviewed the guy several times and he didn't feel the story. he still did it anyway. this focus on the appearance, on where he's shopping did feel like he should be in a fashion section of the paper. i -- maybe you can explain to me why that even needs to be done. >> sometimes it's okay to kill stories even when you send someone to a few states away and you say, i didn't get it, you killed the story. if this had happened in a vacuum, people would say "the new york times" took a swing and a miss and they missed. so what. this is part of a very larger

story. for the last 12 months the d.c. press led by "the new york times" has been obsessed with humanizing, celebrating, normalizing trump voters. they've gotten so far to the right now they're trying to normalize nazis. they invented this news beat out of whole cloth. i am not joking when they have done two dozen articles at this point, all white counties in red states talked to trump voters. you know how many times in 2009 "the new york times" went to baltimore, chicago, l.a. and interviewed obama supporters and said, how great is obama? they never did it because it wasn't news. why is this news? we've been doing this for a year. drop it because you end up glorifying nazis. >> it's interesting, joan, because you do have the sense among people in the northeastern media, oh, no, we missed the real story so we need to keep going back, like going to the zoo. >> exactly. >> an throw poloe anthropologiz

voters, this real america, this heartland. >> normal america is not a small town of white people. what is the prototypical american small town? a city. the idea that the 65 million people that voted for hillary clinton are not interesting, the 63 million is fascinating. >> it's a thing. they're the real americans. the majority are not the real americans and that we always have to be lacerating ourselves for not knowing enough trump voters, not calling this election that was an insane election. he should not have won without jim comey and vladimir putin, we would have been talking about how hillary clinton had let us down. that's inevitable. without those two things. so this whole exercise is faulty in a way because it starts from a premise that we were surprised that a thing happened. it didn't happen.

there are a lot of these people and we need to talk about that and the hate that drives them, but this sense that we were missing them, we're not telling their stories is bizarre. it's over told at this point. >> absolutely. michelle bernard? >> i'm going to push back a little bit. this is coming from someone who is unapologetically black and unapologetic in her support for barack obama. the story went terribly wrong and they should have trashed it, that being said, i think it is important. i am someone who is still scratching my head at the rul d results of the election and i want to understand the trump voter. i want to understand what breeds this kind of hate, if it ever can be understood. i want to understand the person who still supports donald trump when their health insurance is going to skyrocket, when you are told that the president or the child in chief or the genitalia grabber in chief doesn't care about women or women's lives, i want to know why women support donald trump. i think if the pieces are done

properly, they are very, very important to understanding the totality of the america that we live in because quite frankly, these people are scary and there are many people who want to know what makes them tick. "the new york times" got that wrong. >> that is a good point. there's a thing about the viality of evil. the nazis in the '30s after being in concentration camps went home, had dinner, went to the store, shopped, hung out with their families, went to church, right? were sort of normal people. the idea is there is something benile about evil. i wonder if the problem is you can't tell michelle bernard what she wants to know if the media also is not interested in addressing or even admitting the part that race played in the decision to elect donald trump? every income group of white americans. >> right. >> he didn't win the struggling, he won people well off.

>> right. >> the media doesn't want to talk about that. the race thing freaks them out, too. >> i understand michelle's point. in doing this article on this nazi sympathizer, you can tell it forcibly. i don't think anti-semite is in that piece or race. those are things that need to be in the first four paragraphs and they just don't exist. it's sort of this hermetically sealed view. if we take a few steps back, this is all part of the press's obsession to not appear liberal. >> that's right. >> it's the drum beat from fox news. this is how they prove themselves writing two dozen articles all white counties in red states, tell us what you think about donald trump. >> as somebody, joan, i tout your book often, you've written about white america and its shift from being new deal america to anti-new deal america. when you wrote about it you were willing to put the race piece in there because it's in there. can "the new york times" do this job if they won't even use the

word antisemite and if it's all got to be gauzy. >> they are profiling a nazi. they are doing something different, which we should praise them for, coming at race first. this is not economic anxiety. it's hate. >> yeah. >> i think they might have put hate in the second headline. maybe it was in the first. i'm not positive about that. they didn't center hate. they talked about how he's a holocaust denier or minimizer. >> right. >> maybe that's why he's a "seinfeld" fan. i feel like doing "seinfeld" jokes. he's a minimizer, not a denier. he's not completely crazy rather than what is anti-semitism? what does it mean if you deny the holocaust? why do you hate jews? talk more about the fabric of the hate rather than just how he

shops, has a wedding registry and he shops and they're having baby nazis. >> there's still something about him they want to redeem. it is weird. there's a great parity by our viewers out there. "the atlantic" did a brilliant parity of this article that you should take a look at. joan walsh and michelle bernard are sticking around. another major media star is out due to sexual harassment allegations. that's coming up next.

in the past two months there has been a new report issued every week about a prominent man and his sexual misconduct. this has generated a larger conversation around the systemic behavior that's at play. former legendary news anchor charlie rose was the latest to be called out for his behavior in the workplace. i'm talking with the reporter that called out that story next. more "am joy" coming up next. it has a four in one cleaning system that kills ten times more odor causing bacteria than regular toothpaste, deep cleans where brushing may miss, helps remove tough stains, and maintains the original color of your dentures

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i am not okay. after reading that article in "the post" it was deeply disturbing, troubling and painful for me to read. that said, i think we have to make this matter to women, the women who have spoken up, the women who have not spoken up because they're afraid. i'm hoping now they will take the step to speak up, too. that this becomes a moment of truth. i've enjoyed a friendship and a partnership with charlie for the past five years. i have held him in such high regard and i'm really struggling because how do you -- what do you say when someone who you deeply care about has done something that is so horrible. >> this week charlie rose, formerly of the charlie rose show and cbs this morning became the latest name added to a

growing list of famous powerful men accused of sexual misconduct. like the man accused before him, rose, who specifically is accused of unwanted sexual advances and groping addressed the allegations of his eight accusers in a statement that he seemed not quite to grasp the gravity of the accusations against him. >> how are you doing, mr. rose? >> how are you? >> do you want to say anything to those accusers? >> what? >> do you want to say anything to the accusers, the people accusing you of all of these wrongdoings. >> it's not wrongdoings. >> but the allegations are not the only things that it festers in the world of bill o'reilly and roger ales and traditional media. white house correspondent glen thrush and mark halperin. joining me is the author of the charlie rose expose, erin

carmone. this was shocking to a lot of people, your piece, and we'll put up a bit of it. eight women say charlie rose sexually harassed them with nudity, groping and harassing calls. how could it be that someone like rose was literally stripping off his clothes and walking around nude in front of a series of assistants? >> joy, open secret means that some people may know some piece of the story but oftentimes they don't want to find out more, potentially because somebody makes them a lot of money, because they like them, because things -- the status quo is working out for them. this was a story that i became aware of in 2010 when i was a recorder at gesabelle and subsequent to that you will of these stories that are being reported i thought, well, i wasn't able to get the story then so are these women now ready to talk about what happened to them? and the answer turned out to be yes. it's still incredibly difficult though to report these kinds of

stories because the up side for women to talk about this is still so low. we may be at an unprecedented moment, but, you know, just the process of getting people to go on the record, which as journalists is really important, was not easy because people fear stigma. they fear blow back. they fear this defining their career. so i think that that's how these open secrets really stay secret for quite some time. >> absolutely. nbc has reported that charlie rose has now had awards rescinded, university accolades have been rescinded. he was an incredibly powerful figure in media for a long time. do you still find in talking with the women who are making these allegations as you just said, what is it they fear will happen? is it a sense that if i'm that person that speaks out it will be harder for me to get a job because i'm that kind of person that talks or what is it that women are afraid of? >> people talked a lot about how charlie rose would surround himself with beautiful women. they were called charlie's angels. i feel like i was fed to him.

there's just this entire system around some powerful people and so i think that there was some element where these women blamed themselves from being in that position when in reality they just wanted to go to work. and i think that there's also the fact that they have moved on with their lives. they're doing other work that they want to be defined by and they don't want to be defined by the fact that a powerful man allegedly walked in front of them naked or called them with their sexual fantasies and so on. the reason they did decide to speak out is because they said they didn't want it to keep happening and because in some cases, you know, our reporting showed allegations that happened after what happened to them and so they said even though putting my name on this, the three women who went on the record for our story, even though it was not something they sought out, the washington post came to them and asked them do you have a story to they will, they decided to do it because they wanted to put a stop to the alleged behavior. >> in the case of glen thrush as well as charlie rose, these are

men who are essentially dictating the story of our sort of present time, including when we just had a woman running for president of the united states. you know, just as a journalist yourself, you know, kind of how -- i don't know, how jarring was it for you to find out that so many of the men shaping the narrative of our politics, even around gender, were themselves implicated in these kinds of behaviors? >> you know, it's interesting. after our story came out i saw there were folks on twitter saying oh, there are so many talented men who are now leaving the industry. what an exodus. i believe it was dylan buyers. i thought, what about these women who wanted to work? you know, they wanted to be journalists. they wanted to cover foreign policy. they came to try to do their own role in shaping the narrative and all week i've been talking to women who left the industry because they felt like it was a hostile environment or women who felt like it was not an environment they could succeed in because these powerful men called the shots, whether it's

how they shape the narrative of women in power or just the environment that they created where women felt like they were just there to be decorative or they were there to be den mothers. i'm wondering what would a world look like where people weren't driven out because they didn't fit the paradigm that these powerful men snet. >> amll that's left are the men. congratulations on the great reporting. >> thanks. now i want to bring in my panel, joan walsh and michelle bernard. joan, the hits keep coming obviously on these stories. they have also gone to the well of congress, john conyers. he sits on the judiciary committee. he's the ranking member. he would become the chairman of that committee if democrats were to take over the house, we know that donald trump is facing something like watergate, which is what he also sat on the panel for back in the 1970s ironically enough. this is nancy pelosi. this is going around the

interweb of her talking about john conyers on "meet the press." let's listen. >> john conyers is around icon in our country. he's done a great deal to protect women, violence on women. he did great work on that. but the fact is, as john reviews his case, which he knows which i don't, i believe he will do -- >> why don't you? how is it -- >> excuse me, may i finish my sentence? >> sure. >> >> that he will do the right thing. >> is there anything wrong with that response if your view, joan? >> no. i mean, she's getting attacked for using the word icon. i might say was an icon. once you're an icon, you're always an icon. he has done good work. it does seem from the reporting that i've seen he did some not good work and not good things. we need an ethics investigation to get to the bottom of it, joy. i think that leader pelosi was trying to speak up for his due

process rights and for the fact that she's not willing to throw him under the bus without more investigation. >> yeah. i feel, you know, we talked earlier, michelle, about this what aboutism and whether or not the media doesn have an incentie to say if we're going after trumps and moors. then there's al franken and john conyers. then there's going back and rooting a lot of this in bill clinton. this is nancy pelosi answering chuck's questions about the former president and whether women gave him a pass. >> why do you think the reaction was different by women on bill clint clinton? i say it it does seem as if when you watch some of the reaction defending roy moore or overlooking the allegations of roy moore, were you putting politics ahead of your personal disgust? >> no. but we're talking about a child

molester. this is -- we're talking about a child molester. >> president clinton was accused of being a sexual predator and even rape. >> why don't we talk about how we go forward? nobody is proud of president clinton's behavior at the time. >> what do you make of this, michelle bernard? the roy moore allegations are wholly different. they're being used to relitigate bill clinton? >> well, i think it's wrong to use roy moore as a reason to relitigate what happened with bill clinton. quite frankly, for clarence thomas as well. but we're at a place culturally where i think that even for people who don't want to relitigate it, i think you have to go back and look at all of these allegations and also the degree of the allegation. child molestation and child rape versus, you know, harassing an adult woman are distinctions that need to be made. culturally, we absolutely have to look at all of it because

here's what we do know. falling into the ranks and saying, well, my democrat is an okay sexual harasser versus the republican harasser is wrong. we need to look at this in the totality and we have to understand particularly as women that bad men can only get away with bad behavior if we continue to enable it. so if a democrat, for example, women in their party are going to give them a pass, it never stops. we continue to throw away the lives of an entire generation of young women and of adults. >> you know, it's interesting. we're out of time. i would wonder, i'd be interested in asking a lot of democrats if they would take the bargain if we're going to relitigate bill clinton that the same investigation that was started about monica lewinsky scare, if the republicans would be investigated the same way, democrats would take that deal.

coming up, we turn to men behaving goodly because santa claus is coming to town. he'll be right here on "am joy." the real one. that's next.

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you see long lines of people out here at 5:45 or so. we were expecting a big crowd. we don't have the big crowd we expected. i got up at 3:00 excited to do my first ever black friday and ain't nobody here. i am literal avly upset right now. >> well, maybe there was nobody there for black friday because they're waiting to get their gifts the old-fashioned way, from santa. hello! we had the perfect person about that, because santa larry, who is santa, joins me now from the southern north pole also known as dallas, texas. santa larry, always great to talk with you. first of all, i have been very good this year so i expect lots of gifts. >> i know. >> see that? you are santa. do you think, santa, that your presents in a sense does empty out the malls? because people know it will be duplicative to show up the mall when you're going to bring them

presents? >> of course. absolutely, joy. but this is a great season. everything is going great. a lot of people are out there shopping, buying presents for holidays, which is really good. >> i have to ask you about your suit. it's fantastic. spectacular. i don't know how it's surviving the southern north pole weather. but tell me about the suit. >> this suit was hand made for me by j&r santaprises. they got together and made a special presentation and surprise meld with this suit earlier this year. i'm extremely thankful for them. >> this are they actually elves? >> yes, they are. they're a special type of elves. made um of two ladies and they are superb. i just can't thank them and their elf team for making this suit for me. >> you are santa, obviously. the best thing about santa is of course the beard.

are there special beard grooming products you might recommend to the wannabe santas out there? suits are in. >> absolutely. most of my beard grouping is basically a lot of conditioning, conditioning products and some beard oil to keep your beard moist and conditions which helps it stay strong and continue to grow. it's grooming process that takes a year-long process. >> i have to ask you about the hottest toys and gifts this season for the parents that watch this show. what's hot this year in your elf workshop. >> this is what i tell people, joy. the hottest toyings on the market is whatever the children's desire. that's the hottest toy. >> most kids are nice. we acknowledge that. some kids are naughty. how much time do they have left to get themselves together and get back on your nice list?

>> at least 29 days. >> okay. right up until the end, they can switch up and santa will still bring them something? >> absolutely. that's for everybody, all boys and girls and adults too. >> i have to ask you about the space/time continuum because the yld of you being able to get around the entire earth in one night confounds a lot of people and makes some people doubt santa is real. we know you're real because you're on right now, does. >> absolutely. >> is the answer just science how you do it? >> yes. science and magic. >> science and magic. the per fbt answer. santa larry, thank you so much and merry christmas. >> merry christmas to you, joy. do you get to hear your song this year? >> yes, let's hear it! do it! ♪ we wish you a merry christmas, we wish you a merry christmas, we wish you a merry christmas msnbc ♪ >> yes! thank you very much, santa larry. love it and see you down the chimney. i don't have a chimney but you can work that out.

science and magic. >> you got it. bye-bye. >> bye, santa. and at our factory in boston, 1,200 workers are starting their day building on over a hundred years of heritage, craftsmanship and innovation. today we're bringing you america's number one shave at lower prices every day. putting money back in the pockets of millions of americans. as one of those workers, i'm proud to bring you gillette quality for less, because nobody can beat the men and women of gillette. gillette - the best a man can get.

while you're thinking about gifts to give this holiday shopping weekend, make room on your list for the gift of your time. on giving tuesday. msnbc is the signature media partner for giving tuesday which in over six years has become a global giving movement. giving tuesday is a grassroots every of individuals, businesses, and organizations from across the country and 98

countries in all. you can volunteer to causes where you can make a difference. go to the website give jng tuesday.org to find volunteer opportunities. that is our show for today. thanks to you at home for watching. "a.m. joy" is back next saturday at 10:00 a.m. eastern. up next, msnbc with my girl pal alex witt. >> we are totally the sisters. but i have to say i put on my good-girl face all day long. i thought santa was going to be here in the studio and i could, you know, fool him just long enough. >> he's everywhere. sees you when you're sleeping, knows if you're been bad or good. >> i better work on that. 29 days. thank you, joy. a good day to all of you. i'm alex witt at msnbc world headquarters in new york. high noon in the east, 9:00 a.m. out west and here's what's happening. president trump with what appears to be a tacit endorsement of roy moore on twitter or is it? and the fallout from that as the battle for alabama heats up. the new poll and new reaction from the key republican calling on roy moore to ste