i'm stuffed. wait a minute. i said that friday. sorry. with us now -- >> wait. we already -- >> yeah. >> oh, you caught me. >> do you believe those people? >> they're crazy. >> did you see this? >> a couple people that were like -- >> big show. >> every time we do a thanksgiving show -- >> we tape it. >> we tape it because -- >> then we make fun of the fact that we're taping it. >> how was your dinner? oh, i am stuffed and then willie will always go, but, boy, that game last night. and i'll go oh, what a -- it's very obvious. you would have to be extraordinarily -- >> a moron. maybe trump was watching and -- oh, my god, that's it. >> fake news, fake news. and we're making this up. it's a schtick. we've been doing this for ten years. >> i think trump was watching. he can't help himself. >> i won't say the great news source that printed this out. >> one unnamed viewer.

>> their source was a shocked and stunned and deeply saddened unnamed viewer. >> a moron. >> who didn't wish to be identified. >> it was a moron! >> i have a conversation to make. >> no. >> can you believe that? >> it was definitely the president of the united states. >> are there no editors working through thanksgiving weekend? >> no. >> you can't really say an unnamed viewer who wishes to not be identified. >> one. >> last time i checked -- >> i'm stuffed. by the way, happy fourth of july. those fire works last night. it's a joke. we're going to do it again. >> we will go really slowly so you can get it. >> donald. >> and we were just -- maybe the humor they get is like an animal falling on bugs bunny or something. >> trump doesn't do humor, do you remember? >> seriously, editors, please. good god. >> do you remember when they

tried to show trump the jokes that he could tell at the alfalfa club dinner and he didn't get it? >> he didn't get them. >> one moron viewer might have been -- all right. no, no, of course not. for nbc news and msnbc, jon heilmann. >> how was your thanksgiving? >> excellent, thank you. >> that was for real. we meant that. >> hold on. stay with us. hold on. hey, hey. >> whoa, i'm awake. >> that was for real, okay? because we're not going to now speak in obvious generalities and be laughing. did you have a good thanksgiving? >> excellent. thank you very much. >> harold ford jr. >> i haven't introduced him yet but okay. >> say who he is. >> how was your thanksgiving? >> i'm not going to mess up this live show. >> you and i had a bad college football weekend, you and i. bad college football weekend. >> back-to-back. >> i watched them both back-to-back. >> my team has got -- the program has got some thinking to do here. >> at least you're paying your

coach $9 million a year to keep losing to ohio state. secretary to president obama now, political analyst josh earnest. >> should we hold up the headline to the newspaper? >> this is monday, november 27th. >> monday the 27th. >> the day after thanksgiving -- or the holiday weekend. >> whatever day it is. >> and also from bbc news, carol lee joins us. >> how was your thanksgiving weekend? >> great. the eagles did well. i'm happy. >> good, good, good. and michael schmidt is on the case. >> he rocks for thanksgiving. >> alone in a corner. >> not even smiling. >> i think he's trying. that's a smile. >> did you have a good thanksgiving, mike? >> yeah. no, it was good except i didn't make -- my family got a little disappointed in me because we had some news to deal with as we

were driving and kind of looked at me and said the lengths you'll go to, to get out of driving. >> so you were on your phone. >> was it the flynn news? >> yeah, it was the flynn news. >> that's a good place -- before we get to the news, this happened a couple -- obviously while we were kind of all getting ready for thanksgiving dinner and our family was all flooding in and my son actually said did you hear the news about flynn? >> no, we didn't. >> we needed to speak privately about it. >> i said no gloating. >> we don't talk politics at the table. >> we somehow managed -- we don't talk about politics and so somebody said -- >> bada ba-ba. >> you didn't play any scar b borr

borough music? >> well -- >> on spotify. >> it's actually fun. we'll play it going to the break. >> it's hysterical. >> you're crazy. >> mike, so, yeah, this broke thanksgiving day. what can you tell us about it? >> well, it looks like it happened on wednesday. the lawyers for flynn called trump's lawyers and said, look, we can't talk to you anymore, share any information with you anymore about the special counsel's investigation. they had this agreement in place where they could do that. but they said that that could no longer happen. and there's really only one reason why that would -- certainly two reasons that would happen. one is that they're no longer sort of on the same side of the things and secondly that flynn may be talking to mueller. and because flynn it is talking to mueller, he's no longer on the same side of things as others in the investigation and because of that, they said look,

we can't share information with you anymore and have to go our own way. >> michael, is there any other explanation to this? is this much ado about nothing? does mike plin's son, who said everybody calm down, have a reason for saying that? is there any other explanation other than they are now either cooperating with mueller's investigation or preparing to cooperate with mueller's investigation? >> i don't think it's much ado about nothing. either he's cooperating or is going to plead guilty to something. they're pretty sure of that and don't understand why this would happen for any other reason. they've tried to publicly downplay this and said this is not a big deal. we assumed that flynn would plead guilty. at the same time this is deeply troubling for them and folks we're speaking to over the weekend. not only is flynn looking at significant criminal exposure, his son is in -- is being looked

at for the same exact things. and flynn is very motivated to try to save his son from having to go to prison and is willing to do anything to stop that. and because of that, is trying to figure out how he can help mueller and prove to mueller that he has something to give up. it was a pretty significant development we thought. >> equaling troubling to the trump team, somebody was actually in information sharing arrangement to get all the information from the trump team as they were preparing to mount a defense against mueller, who has now broken away. along with breaking away, they also have all that information that they've been gathering. >> yeah. >> so that makes a bad situation even worse for the trump team. doesn't it? >> it does. if you remember earlier this year, flynn's lawyer said when we were reporting that flynn was looking for some sort of immunity from investigators that michael flynn has a story to

tell. if you're the white house and you're the president's legal team and you don't have eyes into exactly what story he's telling, that could be concerning. they're trying to distance tlemsz from flynn. you have a white house official telling kristen welker that flynn is taking steps that are in his best interest, facts unique to him. flynn was in the white house. we know that robert mueller is looking at some of his activity while serving as national security adviser. this is a potentially very significant development and gets this much closer to the white house than we've seen previously. >> so, jon heilmann, you'll know this as well. and you can fill out a bit of the information of what i gathered, just talking to the trump campaign throughout the election cycle.

they always said general flynn was always on the plane with donald because he kept donald calm. >> yep. >> had sit right with him. >> sat with him all the time, kept him in check and said you know he's a very moderating influence on donald. we want him sitting next to donald at all times, especially when they're flying long distances. these two were extraordinarily close. >> you think about the two -- in building this case, whatever the case is that mueller ends up with, the two people at the most focus are paul manafort and michael flynn. orders of magnitude different in other words to their proximatity to trump and amount of time they spent with trump, both as carol points out, because flynn was not just a player in the campaign but for a brief time was at the pinnacle of power at the white house before he was fired. but also because manafort was around for six months or so and

then there was some communication that continued but he was not ever on the plane with donald trump every single day. it is the case that flynn flew around the country with trump constantly, was the person at the top of the foreign policy apparatus, the person who had conversations with trump constantly about the pertinent question at issue, russia. in normal settings, informal setting, on the fly, during the campaign, in the formidable stages and in the white house. i'm not discounting how important manafort is, but flynn in terms of what he could give to robert mueller and his team is infinish -- infiniteely more. >> manafort was a worker bee, hired gun and was never going to be let in to the inner circle

but flynn was there every second of the way. >> we went to lunch there and he was lurking at the door, listening to everything. it was strange. >> that was harold. and that wasn't at the white house. that was downstairs. >> god, it was weird. it was just weird. all right. lots more to get to. this is fascinating. president trump took aim at reporters over the weekend, many in harm's way, while promoting a website that lavishes him with praise and spreads conspiracy theories. the president tweeted, quote, fox news is much more important in the united states than cnn. but outside of the u.s., cnn international is so a major source of fake news and they represent our -- this is the president -- our nation to the world very poorly. the outside world does not see the truth from them! less than an hour later, the president retweeted a purported accomplishment list by the

website, i swear to god, maga pill and wrote, wow, i didn't realize we did so much. wish the fake news would report. thank you. president trump's suggested news source as a sycophanted website that has aligned itself with white nationalist movements, false flag terrorism and mass shootings for gun control. also earthquake machines to destabilize regions. and the use of trauma-based mind control. and that's just one post. this, as the president complained about the russia, russia, russia investigation and claimed i have the economy booming and i have possibly done more than any ten-month president. you know what? i'm sorry. this is where somebody on the set needs to say, wow, that person seems unhinged, imbalanced and not fit to be president. >> you just did. >> who is it going to be?

>> you just did. >> he really seems out of his mind. >> josh, there are a lot of things the president is out there just to shock and stun people. but let's focus on what is actually very disturbing. and that is a president attacking the free press, attacking the free press that continues to actually speak truth to power, that actually continues to tell it straight. making mistakes. we all make mistakes from time to time. but doing that and actually d l denegrading the work of reporters who go out all over the world, risking their lives, as christiane amanpour. every day risking their lives.

president trump knew the facts would never have sent this treat. here is my late camera woman who took a bullet in the face for covering the facts and truth in bosnia. facts first. this happens so much with reporters across the globe. cnn across the globe really is sort of like the bbc is. but it is, again, donald trump attacking the free press. so much of this other nonsense. nfl. come on. he's purposely trying to pick fights. here, this is a challenge to the first amendment of the united states and a free press. and republicans and democrats and independents immediate to all speak up and speak out. there are some things we have to be united on. forget all the other tweets this

weekend. forget the nonsense, the constant noise machine. when he attacks the free press, when he attacks an independent judiciary, when he attacks our constitutional republic, we've got to speak out together. >> these are the foundations of our democracy and a free press constitutes democracy. independent professional journalists would be in a position to hold people in power account wrabl for the way they wielded the power of the american people. and that is a critical element of the successful functioning of our democracy. you raise an important point. there's an important difference between, as outrageous as it is, to attack journalists here in the united states who enjoy the protections of the first amendment to hold people in power accountable. it is another thing all together to go out and attack independent professional journalists who are risking their lives in war zones, in some of the most remote places on the planet to bring us crucial information

about what's happening around the world. the kind of information, the kinds of stories that arouz our consciousness, to make sure that the united states and people who live here are aware of what's happening around the world and can respond to it. so when we saw, for example, a couple of years ago the crisis around the wave of migrant flows from north africa to the middle east, journalists were on the front lines risking their lives to tell that story. we needed to know what was happening there. and to undermine in such a gratuitous, flippant way on twitter -- >> think about this harold, remember the reporter who had gotten beaten up by a congress youngal candidate? the dude was immediately arrested. they cuffed him. they threw him -- >> he ran for the united states congress. >> who ultimately won. the guy had mug shots probably within, you know, 12 hours. they didn't put up with it.

so our law enforcement officers, as you said, domestically, they're always going to do the right. they're going to protect -- they understand the first amendment. let's say there's a cnn international reporter or nbc news reporter that's in turkey and maybe they do something that the government doesn't like. well, they've already got the message, you've got the president of the united states who says this is fake news, this is propaganda. maybe we throw them in jail. maybe we do worse. president of the united states isn't going to mind. whereas they would know under barack obama or under george w. bush. >> or any other president. >> any other president, don't screw with the american journalists because if you do, you're going to get a call from the american embassy in five minutes and things are going to go badly for you very quickly. that message hasn't been sent. >> the opposite. >> by an administration that doesn't even have ambassadors in

these outposts and now has sent a message to tyrants from turkey to russia, to what you want with our reporters because we don't like them. >> because we don't believe them. >> because they won't kiss our ass every day on the air. >> okay. now watch your language. >> and spew propaganda 24 hours a day. and lie to our viewers about how they're doing. >> any time there's disagreement with this white house, no pun intended, to trump and whatever they may be doing, those are the ones they take on. our elected officials, the president and attorney general, ridiculing countries who treat journalists the wrong way, the points you just made. marrying the two not only do you give a license to people who behave certain ways to our jirnlists, you almost celebrate it. because of how they present and project news globally. you shouldn't believe wherever you are around the globe -- it's

another piece of icing on this cake about how this president behaves in such a poor way. >> it's now a stretch to say he's fit. >> and "the new york times" that brings the world to our doorstep as they would say every morning. what about the washington post reporters? what about all the reporters, american reporters across the globe that are putting themselves at risk? >> i'm hoping that somebody -- and i thought it would be the chief of staff -- would get this president's tweets in check before someone gets hurt. and i'm dead serious, before someone gets hurt or worse. >> before someone gets hurt sbl michael schmidt, final thoughts on this before we go to break? while we're on this topic, it would be good to hear from you. we are on the front lines of the trump story. >> obviously we have to pay attention to what the president says, look at what the justice department did a few months ago when they held a press conference to announce autumn leak investigations they were

doing. at the end of the day we really just have to tune it out and go back to work. that's what we do on a day-to-day basis. we have to follow the facts. facts are our friends. as much as we wet ourselves in that and tune out what the president is doing, the more successful we will be in the end. and i think we focus on that every single day. >> that's all you can do. still ahead on "morning joe," president trump reportedly suggests the "access hollywood" tape is not authentic. of course he does. he has already apologized for it. i have my own take i know what happened on that tape and i'm going to tell you. it's not what you think. >> he apologized? >> he did. >> but says it's fake now. >> i'll tell you, there is something that's been massively misunderstood about it. >> you can't say that. >> yes, i can, and i'm going to. >> no, you can't. >> yes, i am. >> no, you're not. >> i want everybody to listen to it, then you're going to hear what i hear. >> mika's not going to -- it's a theory. >> it is a theoriy and since

theories are apparently on maga pig website true, i'm going to put mine out there. >> can we talk about the earth code machines? >> earthquake machines, the thing on that website, i'm most curious about. >> i'm 100% right, by the way. i'm always right about these things. >> that's in the third season of "stranger things." president trump -- >> i'm scaring joe. >> make or break moment to overhaul the tax code. do they have enough votes? you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪ it's a lot easier to make decisions when you know what comes next. if you move your old 401(k) to a fidelity ira, we make sure you're in the loop at every step from the moment you decide to move your money to the instant your new retirement account is funded. ♪ oh and at fidelity, you'll see how all your investments are working together. because when you know where you stand, things are just clearer. ♪ just remember what i said about a little bit o' soul ♪

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president trump has weighed in on roy moore's candidacy and has said the last thing we need in alabama and the u.s. senate is a schumer/pelosi puppet who is weak on crime, weak on the border, bad for our military and bad for our second amendment. "the times" claims the trump sees the calls for moore to step aside as an aversion to the response to the now famous "access hollywood" tape in which he boasted of kissing and groping women. trump reportedly suggested to a senator earlier this year that the tape was not authentic and apparently repeated that claim to an adviser more recently. however, trump has repeatedly admitted to making the comments and apologized for them. >> i've said and done thing ice

regret. and the words released today on this more than a decade-old video, are one of them. anyone who knows me knows these words don't reflect who i am. i said it. i was wrong. and i apologize. >> jon heilmann, donald trump goes back and forth, back and forth, changes the facts. he apologized, admitted he said it, now says it's fake. we shouldn't be surprised, should we? >> no. when they were waiting to see it, his first theory was this tape is going to be fake. it's not going to be real. when they heard it for the first time he was like, i guess that's me. even then he continued to say, is it edited in some way? he's a conspiracy theorist. as we know he traffics in websites that are conspiracy theories. he continues to, as you know, after the access hollywood tape -- even though he admitted to saying these words eventually, he basically took on

all those women who came forward to accuse him of sexual harassment, sexual assault, claims they're all liars and said at the time he was going to sue them all. hasn't sued any of them. it's not surprising to me at this date now, more than a year later, he is back in his mind to this is all a conspiracy. this is all a fraud. he's telling people i never said those things. forget about what i said in the campaign. this is all made up. fake news. >> repeating this story back to himself over and over, which he does. >> yeah. >> he will repeat a story to himself over and over again and convince himself of his own set of facts. >> roy moore is uniquely unqualified to be in the you state senate. doug jones is not soft on crime. united states attorney who put murderers in jail, who is aligned with some of the best and strongest cases to be brought in this nation's history. in addition, he has been one of the biggest proponents of expense spending. big increases in defense spending and he has been smart and frankly outspoken about it. so this president, again, the fake news is coming from him

about doug jones. if you look at doug jones' record there in alabama, you will see a democrat. you will see someone from alabama who represents the values of alabamans who happens to be a democrat. i know what donald trump is trying to do. the facts, again, don't line up with these unbelievably false assertions. >> with the "access hollywood" tapes, you know, billy bush lost his job while the president went on to be president. think about that. on top of it, it sounds like anything could have happened in that bus i wonder what billy bush would say if he totally told the story. it sounds like he was sort of, like -- >> come on, mika. >> something happened in there, he was lunged at in some way by trump. >> let's talk about congressman john conyers. >> just listen to it. it's interesting. as the ranking member of the house judiciary committee. 27 term, made that announcement

yesterday amid sexual harassment allegations. conyers released a statement that read in part, quote, i deny those allegations. i very much look forward to vindicating myself and my family before the house committee on ethics. former staffer says she was fired for resisting the congressman's sexual advances. senior democratic aide tells nbc news that his decision to step aside comes after days of house minority leader, nancy pe loclo and others laying the groundwork for him to step aside gracefully. >> we are strengthened by due process. just because someone is accused. was it one accusation, two?

john conyers is an icon in our country and has done a great deal, violence against women advocates. the right wing is quoting me as praising him for his work on that. he did great work on that. the fact is, as john reviews his case, which he knows, which i don't. >> why don't you? how is it that you don't? >> excuse me, may i finish my sentence? >> sure. >> that he will do the right thing. >> do you believe his accusers? >> i don't know who they are. do you? they have not really come forward. >> it's really important that the words due process have come up in this conversation. not that it's possible in every situation but in this situation. every situation that we have covered over the past two months is different except for maybe one or two. they all have different dynamics to them. they all have different levels of nasty to them or bad to them. and they all need to be treated differently. and i think this one breaks my

heart. it really does. >> how shocking the word due process. >> thank you, nancy pelosi. >> enraged some people yesterday. there's something else bigger here. i've even heard conservatives say this about john conyers. first of all, i don't understand this slush fund that they have in congress. i never knew about it. i'm sure you didn't know about it either. it's outrageous. we need to get that open and know what that's about. we need to know all the accusers. i'm sure, you know, let's just presume that the accuser was treated badly. let's talk about john conyers, though. i think nancy pelosi got in trouble for calling him iconic? >> an icon. >> an icon. in these days, in this environment, you're supposed to wipe everything out that anybody has ever done based on some charges that are put forward. i understand that. that's the climate we're in right now.

>> especially if they're -- yeah. >> i understand that. i will say this, though. there's something bigger with john conyers. three years ago he had articles written about him by people who adored him saying he should step aside. in 2014 i think it was, he went to the opening of air of american museum. when he got up to talk, he was talking about miles davis and john coltrane, rambling around, showing up in pajamas to meeting s. somebody in his office needs to step in. they were talking about him having dementia several years ago. we're not supposed to talk about that when it comes to the president and the fact that the president's skills, mentally, if you look at interviews, seem to have diminished a great deal. that's subjective. 20 years from now, look how he talked in '99. look how he's talking now. so, please, save your shock for somebody else.

i don't really give a damn about what you think about what i said because it's going to be said ten years from now. when it comes to john conyers, the guy is showing up in pajamas, okay? he's clearly not capable of being a united states congressman. >> but he is an icon. >> people need to step in. now as far as nancy pelosi getting hammered for saying he's an icon, tell me, what do you call this person before this happened? a guy who was a korean war veteran? he got into congress as one of only four black members in congress. a guy who single-handedly started the congressional black caucus, a guy who is responsible for rosa parks laying in state in the united states capital. i believe it was the first black woman to ever be afforded that honor. oh, he was in selma on that bloody, bloody day so many years ago i would call that an icon. i would call that an icon.

if you're offended by that, if you're offended by nancy pelosi calling a man like that an icon, let me just say that you remind me an awful lot of the bible thumpers i grew up with and a lot like jim and tammy faye bakker. yes, he needs to be taken out of congress and, yes, they need to rip the scab off of whatever they have in the house where they pay sexual harassment things from tax dollars. and they give the member representation but not the accuser and, yes, he's obviously a danger to others. he's a danger to himself. he needs to be removed from congress because he's not capable of being in congress. and people who love him and people who care for him need to gather round him now and tell him it's time to go home. but when he goes home it's not george h.w. bush shot out of the

skies and into the waters of the pacific. judge the man by his 93 years. service to america. judge john conyers by his 88, 89 years and his service to america and get him out of congress now. >> it's such a good point you make. when you're talking about men in their late 80s, early 90s, you're talking about people who are suffering from health problems. i know i just had one of my closest friends, diane smith, over recently. we both recently lost our fathers and we both had that moment where we had to go to our fathers and say, it is time to go home. it's time to go home, you know, and be at home for a while. and the behavior of someone in that age range is just -- it's hard to explain sometimes. and it's very, very difficult to deal with. and it's sort of sick to inject it into this conversation that we're having. i think it minimizing it.

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okay. this is kind of uncomfortable. >> i don't know. they're kind of cute. they have santa clauss all over

them. >> here i'm talking about john conyers showing up in pajamas and richard haas shows up -- >> in santa claus pajamas. >> from the waist down and has on the cutest slippers. >> let's not make light. we're going to get in trouble. we're just trying to have an honest conversation about this. >> it's time to go home. >> and sometimes it's okay to laugh. just calm down. >> about what? >> you're making fun of the whole conyers situation. >> i'm not making fun of it. i'm making fun of richard. >> we should be able to laugh, cry and be dead serious all about this same topic at the same time. >> no, no, we don't laugh about this topic. >> i think you would really wear -- wait, we wear pajamas on the air christmas eve. >> but i do that on purpose. >> we just roll in. >> thomas roberts said i always had waistband wednesdays. >> yes. >> stretchy pajamas. you know, the most shocking

thing this morning is here we are at 66:41 a.m. on a monday morning, november 27th and mika -- >> what? >> -- still did not know, harold ford, that the alabama -- >> can i talk? good god, can you stop -- like it's an snl skit. >> i know. did you notice that she was the crazy one on the snl skit? >> see, i'm going to complete a sentence and you let me complete the sentence and then you talk. >> okay. go ahead. i'm listening. >> so, harold, here we are on monday morning. and mika did not know at 6:41 a.m. that the university of alabama lost to their in-state rival the auburn tigers. shocking loss, even more shocking that she is so disconnected from my life that she doesn't know that the worst

thing that could have possibly happened in sports happened to me. it was devastating. look how devastated i am. >> alabama, though, we had an off-camera conversation. i don't know if they make the playoffs. your thinking is -- >> they'll make the playoffs. i mean, if ohio state beats wisconsin -- >> i think ohio state makes -- >> no, they don't. ohio state lost to iowa, a really bad loss. alabama, number one, lost a great number six team. in-state -- their in-state rival away on the home field. it's hard. you look at -- you look at all the losses. everybody has a really bad loss right now. so alabama will probably get in there. i've got to say they're so banged up and so hurt right now, i don't think they're going to win it anyway. when you lose your best linebackers, they're decimate sfld they lost one of their defensive backs also. what's the kid's name?

fitzpatrick? >> minka. >> minka. >> oh, i thought you meant me. >> no. you don't deserve the name. >> my view is this. joe is not one of those guys who walks around saying oh, we lost. he watches a football game and if alabama loses he's the same as if alabama wins. >> it never happened. >> and i was surrounded -- i had chickens walking into my kitchen. i had four dogs, three cats and melania got loose and almost got killed. >> the rabbit. >> donald was missing. >> the rabbit. >> i almost just closed the door and let him freeze to death. that's the rabbit. but instead we found donald. so i had a lot going. and kids everywhere. i was not watching football. >> it's not the truth that i'm the same if they win or lose. >> you seem the same. you're a nice guy. >> my friends will go crazy for weeks and weeks. i'll say their y're 18-year-old

kids throwing a ball around. >> yeah. >> we're proud of them when they win but it's cruel when they lose. >> to have a six wild card one. >> they're going to expand it. >> even one of these outside conferences. central florida will lose to memphis in this conference championship f they win they'll be the only undefeated team in this country and particularly if ohio state -- >> they're going to expand it out to eight. >> at least to six. >> browns, giants or 49ers -- >> browns s will not win. >> carol lee, will you text me and let me know so i can be more -- >> yes. >> okay, thanks. >> president trump told president erdogan during a call friday that the united states will stop p arming kurdish fighters in syria. >> the announcement came from turkey before later being confirmed from the white house reportedly took the state department by surprise. no details on timing will be

released or confirmed. >> of course because turkey has been such a great ally. what the hell have the kurds ever done? oh, wait a second. they've done everything that's ever been asked of them. they're an extraordinary group of fighters. it's an extraordinary group of people. they should be at the top of our list for allies. >> there's been an historical pattern here where time and time and time again the kurds, they get screwed, and often by the united states. we decide even after we work with them, then we basically cast them aside. this looks to be the latest. not only wrong morally, what overer other leverage do we have over syria, over iran, russia-backed syrian government? the kurds are only players. by the way, the idea that turkey doesn't like it, that iran and iraq doesn't like it, what's so bad with that? >> you would think we would -- >> you would think. >> the kurds, everybody talks about how israel is, you know,

to boro from jirmy carter right before -- i hate to do this, president carter. you know what he said about iran, an island of stability and a sea of chaos. well, that's what israel has been. and we have always supported israel. that's what the kurds are in that region. the kurds -- we can always count on the kurds. we can't count on the iraqis. we sure can't count on the iranians and the turks have prove tobd about as disloyal a nato ally as you have but the kurds are always there for us. >> makes sense morally, politically, strategically. why leave them in lurch again? what tools do we have to influence syria? unless i missed it, that's it. that's acknowledging that assad with his iranian and russian backers have won the game. game over. >> catching the state department off guard once again. there's so many things. we talked about the importance of the first amendment, importance of the free press, what donald trump is trying to

do to undermine the first amendment. i think close behind is the gutting of our diplomatic core. and the state department being caught off guard. this is so dangerous for this country. i don't know how this gets repaired. i told mika, the institutions will be fine, the first amendment will be fine. it will survive. the state department, not so sure. >> that's the thing that's important to remember here. these institutions don't just exist on paper. they're people that make these institutions work. they're hemorrhaging, the senior most people that have advanced the interests of this country all around the world and it is a tragedy what is happening at the state department right now. it is not something that is going to be rebuilt in just the next presidency. but it's going to take some time over a generation to sort of restaff and make sure that we've got -- >> decades of work. >> people in this these

position. >> this could be the tragic legacy of this secretary of state, that he presided over the did he s decimation of his department and disrespect for diplomacy and the idea we don't need a stroit strong state department now, given all that -- >> harold, jump in. >> joint chiefs are saying likelihood of north korea nuclear war is rising. athletes going to south korea to compete, would you sanction that delegation? >> chance of war with north korea is serious. some kind of an incident could grow out of -- this sort of thing with the north korean defector, b-1 bombers near north korean air space. these two countries, united states and north korea, simply are not in a position to manage a situation, escalation. people are discounting way too much a chance that something could happen that could lead to war between the united states and north korea. >> we have a whole block on state department issues coming up. >> speaking of foreign policy,

mika and i, and everybody here. and i'm sure all of you want to extend our thoughts, prayers, and best wishes to our muslim brothers and sisters and eswript who were victims of a tragic t attack. donald trump will talk about building walls in america, and he will talk about extreme vetting. the reality is if you don't know this, the number one by far victim of islamic extremism are muslims across the world. and in iraq right now, i think 10,000 people have been victims of extreme islamic terrorism just this year alone. and so our thoughts and prayers are with our friends in egypt. >> still ahead, a look at jared kushner's shrinking role inside the trump white house. we'll be right back.

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prshl son-in-law and white house adviser role in the white house was in the news over the weekend. profiles in both "the new york times" and washington post on his shrinking role are signaling his desire to step back from the responsibilities he accepted during the first eight months of the administration. >> by the way, also "vanity fair" was reporting earlier this week. >> i've been hearing -- >> this is third story, first with "vanity fair" and then others followed up. >> i've been hearing from insiders there's a lot of discussion around jared and ivanka and president trump telling ivanka go back to new york. this is not good for you. >> and yet, carol, if you talk to people close to jared, they deny all these stories and say that they're actually planning their second year. so what's the truth? >> what gives? >> well, look.

it's not like jared kushner has been downgraded to delivering the newspapers inside the west ring. he still has the middle east peace portfolio. he's still involved in renegotiating nafta and other big pieces of policy, but there's no disputing that he's -- his portfolio has shrunk. if you look at where he was when this administration started, and that's for a number of reasons. one, i think there's realization that what they put on his plate nobody could do. >> nobody. >> entirely, it was too much. and the other is russia is taking its toll. that investigation is taking its toll, and inside the west wing and in jared kushner. what you're seeing -- and then john kelly coming in as chief as staff. he's instilling order and commanded a respect from people like jared kushner that maybe reince priebus didn't have. that's all resulted in shrinking

of his portfolio. >> and carol is right. they gave him everything coming in, everything. there was no way anybody should have, could have handled that role. so it is a smaller role right now, but i'll talk to richard at the top of the hour. for instance, he was in saudi arabia all weekend right before all the things that went down there. we'll talk about that on the other side. >> all right. coming up, as the year winds down, the pressure ramps up for republicans to score a win on tax reform. we'll go live to the white house for the details about the president's push. we'll be right back. dad: molly! trash! ( ♪ ) whoo!

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welcome back to "morning joe." it is monday, november 27th. still with us, national affairs analyst for nbc news, john heilemann, richard haas, former white house press secretary to president obama now political analyst, josh earnest. >> and hold on. hold on. listen up. it's so good. >> all right. political writer for the new york times nicholas con iffisor

and heidi przybyla. and also bob costa. >> heidi, is it busineprzybyla? >> prison belzybyla is how i sa. >> chris matthews has messed it up. przybyla. have it got it? >> przybyla. >> przybyla. >> heidi, a lot going on. a lot went on throughout the weekend. where are we right now as we head into the new week and congress is trying all they can, at least the republicans there, to pass a tax bill? >> so much on their plate, and it's about priorities first. joe, every year it seems this

time of year we have the potential of a government shutdown. what we're going to see is the first priority is keeping the lights on, getting the spending bill passed, a short term spending bill but so much else on the plate and so much tension over additional issues not just the tax bill but what they're trying to do for for instance on health care in repealing the mandate on daca. many things that the disaster funding aid. and so the question is can they keep the lights on and handle all of these other things plus pass major tax legislation? joe, i was just corresponding with some top lobbyists on the tax front last night, and they were saying they think by the end of the week hopefully they can try and appease some of the republicans that are concerned and have varied concerns about the tax bill, for example, susan collins, and ron johnson, what they're really concerned about

are two members in particular. and that's john mccain and jeff flake. i think things will start to narrow a bit on these two senators, and in terms of just them being major holdouts in the end. they will say it's over principles. the president and his team will say it's personal. but according to lobbyists i was talking to, those are the two they're worried about the most and they were saying they could forsee a situation where mike pence would have to be the tie breaker. >> bob, there's so many moving targets here. you have jeff flake, and you have john mccain. imagine john mccain voting for this bill for a lot of different reasons. mainly on policy. but jeff flake as well. but then you even go to bob corker. maybe he's changed his mind, but when he was on this show, he was talking about the deficit and

talking about it would blow $1.5 trillion hole in the defic deficit. now some estimates have it over $2 trillion. how does susan collins support that? it seems to me holding all but two republicans in check is a pretty tall order. >> so add to heidi's smart points, when you think about the core problem here for senate republic can leaders, there are those who think the tax plan is progrowth. others think it adds top of the deficit. speaker ryan said put aside your concerns about the deficit. we need a growth bill for 2018. the other problem they have is even if they can reconcile the problems and convince the deficit hawks, you may have moderate members who think the plan is too friendly to corporations. if the democrats could get a

talking point or have it resonate nationally that this is a corporate friendly bill, not a great bill, it hasn't caught on yet, but they're trying to make that case. you could see moderates grow wary of this bill as well. >> richard, you talked about in your last book, you talked about the challenges the united states has and one of the top challenges was the national debt. i mean, you and i, you've worked in a republican administrations, i've worked in -- we're a republican congress, and republicans have always believed you tax the right type of taxes, you grow the economy, and everything takes care of itself. in this case, nobody is subjecting even with dynamic scoring that this is going to grow the economy. which, by the way, we're almost at full employment right now. so nobody is suggesting that it's going to grow the economy in a way that it will justify blowing another $2 trillion hole in the u.s. debt which is already at $20 trillion. is going to go up to $30 trillion by the end of the

decade, and then you look at entitlements, and the crisis there. this is the exact wrong thing to do at the exact wrong time. i don't know any fiscal conservative could ever vote for this bill. >> goldman sachs came out with a prediction the u.s. economy is going to grow at 4 %. the idea you need this to stimulate economic growth is contradicted by what all sorts of people are now predicting. inflation is beginning to pick up. the fed is going to have to raise rates as a result. and as you said, the debt is large. as the interest on the debt grows, as rates go up, by the way, you're not just going to have the debt go up, but you're going to have interest on it going up. it's going to cost us more and more and crowd out virtually every other fom of spending. it's going to hurt defense and investment in our economic future. it makes to sense. it leaves us more vulnerable to international markets.

>> and having to borrow from the chinese and the japanese, having to borrow from the saudis. it's so reckless. >> these are interesting policy points and i know you have a long standing view about the debts and deficits and sometimes these are politically salient and sometimes not. i want to ask josh this question. this bill is not middle class friendly. just on the distribution tables, just the facts of it are it is weighted toward rich people and corporations. it doesn't help the middle class. bob said if democrats find a talking point, why can't they find a talking point when the facts are clear it is prorich people not promiddle class. why can't democrats make that argument? >> that's right. one of the things republicans have tried to do on capitol hill is hide the ball a little bit. they keep tweaking the bill and changing it. they're doing that to try to cobble together a coalition to pass the bill. but what it does is makes it a bill that's hard to attack. and that is the challenge that's

facing democrats. this is the chief vulnerability of this proposal. look, there is no nobody who showed up at a donald trump rally last year who was chanting cut corporate taxes. and it is obvious on its face that this is snag benefits corporations and wealthy people and people prepared to inherit multimillion dollar estates from their parents. if you have to punch a clock, you are not going to benefit from the bill, and in some cases you're going to pay higher taxes. >> nick, you have not been on since the last "star wars" trailer which suggests that luke -- >> don't spoil it for me. i haven't seen it yet. >> luke is sort of in the middle. it's sort of amambiguous. we don't know if he's on the good or bad side of the force. >> if luke can have a cut in the inheritance tax, he can finally build the light saber business he always wanted to build. for me the real tell on the bill

is the us kate testate tax. when you stick it in, it's like a tell. this is just a grab bag of things they always wanted to do on taxes, and they're running around trying to find pots of money to pay for it. >> think about this. think about donald trump running for a year and a half saying i'm going after the rich people. i'm going after the goldman sachs. you have been forgotten. the bushes and the clintons are owned by wall street. i am going to remember the forgotten middle class. steve bannon is like hey, this is about populism. we're going to raise taxes on the rich. and here they have the most just nakedly pro corporate rich tax cut at the expense of working class americans that i've ever

seen in my life, and you combine -- i'm getting a a point here. you combine this with the health care bill that they passed which hurt the very people that voted for barack obama eight years ago and then switched to donald trump, and i just have to ask myself a question. what the hell is wrong with the democratic party? if i were a democrat and running for office, i would get 99% of the vote. >> maybe you ought to do it. >> if i believed in socialism in the redistribution of income, i would get -- i wish i were a liberal, because it's so easy. >> if you become a democrat, i'll watch alabama with you. >> i don't believe in socialism. but it would be so easy to beat republicans because they have become cartoon characters of themselves. it's unbelievable.

>> spreadtorial south park characters of themselves. >> doug jones feels zero pressure to back this bill. he's a democrat running in alabama. it shows you how toxic this bill is and how obvious the interests are that a democratic in alabama is like no, it's pro corporate. i'm not going to do it. >> it's true of others. >> ten years ago you would have had others that would have backed it. now no democrat wants to back it. >> roy moore's opponent is doug jones. right? >> correct. >> just making sure. for him to win -- >> you got it right. >> i'm noticing he's not doing a lot of -- unless i've missed it because i don't watch a lot of television, not doing a lot of interviews. it's like he knows in alabama they hate the media and this could go either way. what's his strategy to win, and would he work it in a way -- he's not talking to the media or maybe he lets them talk about

him? >> i think what he's doing is he's not talking to the national media. that's a smart strategy for alabama but he's active on the campaign trail, doing events. >> letting himself be the story without -- >> i think he's happy to have roy moore and his proclivities be the story and doug jones tell the story about his public career. >> bob costa, you were on the campaign trail nonstop. you heard the populist banter coming from the trump campaign. how is this corporate tax cut give away -- how is this playing in trump country? >> consultants and strategists i'm talking to aren't sure. they look at what happened in the virginia governor's race in the 2017 elections and wonder when voters flip, is it because of policies like the health care bill or the tax bills or policy or because of president trump's

temperament and the tweets and the cultural chaos, and they wonder if it's because of the policies, then maybe this tax plan is a huge mistake going into the 2018 midterms. at the same time, they believe the mainstream republicans in capitol hill they have to have something to run on in 2018 besides gorsuch. if it's because of temperament, they think they're fine and this will revive the republican coalition, but they're not sure. >> john heilemann, there was such a populist campaign. the clintons are owned by wall street. the bushes are owned by wall street. trump, i hear you. i'm a queen's guy. i hear you. that was sort of the message all along. steve bannon, the home stretch of the campaign running against goldman sachs, running against the fed, running against the bankers, running against the rich. i'm thinking about you. i just don't understand.

how did democrats not open these people up and destroy them on the campaign trail? this is literally so easy to do. >> look, you can never overstate incompetence of trying to align working class voters with their economic interest. there are a lot of cultural factors. it's the case that with donald trump you're right, during the campaign he talked about getting rid of the carried interest loophole. then he arrived in washington d.c. and stocks his economic team with people from goldman sachs. >> can i interrupt for a second. stocks his people with billionaires who pay 14%. >> and are flagrant in their lifestyles. >> they pay 14% in taxes in

their taxes while small business owners sometimes pay 55%. >> you have all these people who are the classic example of the kinds of folks that steve bannon and donald trump railed against during the campaign, and yet the trump base has largely stuck with donald trump. it suggests to me that the reason that people were for donald trump is not because -- >> have they? >> to a large extent he's still got his 35%. he's still got 80% of republicans who support him. the trump base is with him. his numbers have fallen but he's still strong with his base and republicans. it suggests the reason people are identifying with him was they identified with him in a broad sense of he's change. he's going to blow everything up. not that there was some notion that they were for him on terms of policy consistency. >> they just wanted -- >> the question of the loophole or what the tax rates were going to be. they just liked the guy.

>> heidi, he's trying to pass a tax bill that will enrich his own family. i'm going to say this slowly. >> now, be nice. >> i'm being nice. heidi, donald trump is trying to pass a tax bill that reportedly will make his own family $1 billion. he will become $1 billion richer. the trump family will become 1 billion richer if this tax bill passes, and trump was the one complaining about bill clinton sell v serving, getting $500,000 speeches from foreign countries? >> here's joe what democrats need to do but they're not doing, because i have talked to these people out on the campaign trail, joe, and they don't view

it as a zero sum thing. they believe that donald trump can get his and they can still get theirs. here's the big -- >> they're getting theirs. >> but that's the problem with democrats. right? they need to make that connection for voters. they need the pie chart, and they need to show that, yeah, when you put through a huge tax cut bill like this and you give all this money to corporations which doesn't trickle down, what's the next thing that happens? what is the republican leadership already talking about doing? they want to make these entitlement cuts already. they've been wanting to do it for a long time. will those cuts be steeper? what's going to happen? you're going to get maybe they say for people making $25,000 and less you get $50 back in your wallet? well, then what is taken away from you on the other side of the ledger in terms of yoush health care? what are those entitlement cuts? are they going to cut programs at your school for your kids? are they going to renew the

programs, for example, on education and what's going to happen to our infrastructure? democrats need to do a better job of making that connection instead of just focusing on what donald trump gets they need to focus on what gets taken away from anybody else. >> you josh who made a great point of this, claire mccaskill, he said you're going to give them $50 back, but you don't tell them you're taking ho 40 0 -- 400 out of their other pocket. >> i read what i thought was a close look at why people voted for donald trump and one, i thought revealing element of his story is that if you look up and down -- look at voters by income. hillary clinton won one group of voters by income. it was those at the bottom. from that standpoint, democrats have made a successful case on an economic basis about what democratic policies will do. i think, joe, but to answer your question directly about how you

would get 99% in some of the congressional districts, the fact is people aren't voting on this issue right now. they voted for donald trump not because of the economy. they voted for him for something else. >> but there is an accumulation at some point. try to take away my health care. wait a second. actually, he's giving rich people -- i mean, at some point they go wait a second. this guy's not telling the truth. >> that's right. that's not an excuse. the point is democrats have a responsibility to go and make the case so the people are making their voting decisions not based on some cultural touch stone. >> i don't know about the culture issue. this is across the board. >> and by the way, let's -- let me say this. i want to go to abortion for a second. every time i say this i get people mad at me, but if the democrats want to have speaker of the house again, sometimes they can find somebody who is progressive in areas that line up culturally with people in

alabama. i will tell you this right now. as offended as democrats may be by that, if there were somebody who were conservative to moderate on abortion own guns but with democrats on 99% of the other issues, doug jones would be up by 50 points right now. >> the democrats have the problem the republicans had. >> politically the democrats are winning on some parts of the culture war, but losing on abortion. the reason people are with him is because he calls out black athletes on twitter and says they're lazy and entitled. they are with him for the performance of anger and rage against the people they hate, and he is about describabtribal this country. it's powerful and working for him. >> it's very base. >> that's why they voted for him. >> he's talking about looking at

his next thing on his agenda. welfare reform. which is what is welfare? >> what do you have to lose? wow. >> bob costa, his solution is a 33% solution. he is targeting older white males and there is no future. this is -- this is not wishful thinking. this is a demographic loser. five, ten years from now, people will look back on this as the death cry of old angry white america. they just will. the numbers are -- demographics i've always said it, i've said it obsessing over entitlement reform, but in this case demographics is destiny, because even now this is a 33% solution. this is not how you run a party

that wants to run america in the future. so the question is is it enough to get the republicans through 2018 or does it blow up in their face before then? >> the republicans on capitol hill who i'm talking to, they know the party is fractured. their point is in conversations with themselves or with reporters is we have to have a coalition. the party is so split. we have to get the suburban office park warriors to be with us. we need to get the trump voter who is obsessed with trade with us. this is an imperfect coalition. they said it's the only coalition they have, and they're going to bank on that growth number that goldman sachs was talking about to carry them over to try to erase all the tension in this country, the division to paper it over in their eyes with a tax plan. >> so you're talking about they're going -- the obama recovery? >> exactly. it's the obama recovery. >> i hate to say this, but by the way, bob, i know some republicans will angry, but i've

said this for 30 years. the economy moves like a very lumbering aircraft carrier. what's happening now is the result of policies that were put in place seven years ago. bill clinton -- >> that's important to make. >> george h.w. bush turned the economy around. george h.w. bush did the things required to get the economy growing again and take care of the deficit. bill clinton benefitted from that and grew on it. >> president trump is going to take credit for what happens next year regardless of the back story. >> yeah. he will. and so will the democrats, bob, from what you've seen on the campaign trail, be nimble enough to push back? >> i think you have to watch the democrats like senator casey and joe donnelly. they're thinking we may not vote for this tax plan. if you're a democrat that doesn't vote for it, what do you run on? trade. you have to reclaim the populism. >> robert, thank you so much.

so much to talk about this morning. still ahead, as lawmakers return from a holiday break, they are facing increased pressure to end the culture of secrecy over sexual harassment on capitol hill. it comes as al franken addresses the allegations made against him after more than a week of media silence. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ancestrydna is the gift of the season. and it's now just $59! but the real gift isn't what's inside the box. it's what's inside the person who opens it.

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live binge dvr'd shows,te sport, while painting your toes.ture. on demand laughs, during long bubble baths. tv on every screen is awesome. the xfinity stream app. all your tv at home. the most on demand, your entire dvr, top networks and live sports on the go. included with xfinity tv. xfinity. the future of awesome. s you have no intention to resign? >> no. we have an ethics process i agreed to cooperate with completely. >> hasn't your credibility been undermined? >> i would say yes. and i have a long way back. i have a long way back to win

back the trust of the people of minnesota. i've let the people down. i've let the people of minnesota down. >> joining us now nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of kasie dc on msnbc. where is it, guys? ♪ >> alex is off today. good job, dan. kasie is here. heidi is along with us. we have a lot to get to this morning. >> kasie, where are t 3shirts? >> i've got them. we're going to wear them on friday to promote the sunday show because kasie dc airs monday nights on msnbc. >> i'm going on kasie dc at some point soon. i'm excited. >> will you wear the tank top? >> i'm not sure i have the

biceps for a tank top anymore, but how about a t shirt? >> you can do a long sleeve t shirt same with willie. >> she did. >> kasie, al franken appears to be at this point pushing back a little bit. we haven't heard much from him. >> we haven't. it took him over ten days to do this. the allegations surfaced some time ago. i think behind the scenes the thinking of both the franken team and also other democrats on capitol hill and the reason you hear the focus on the ethics investigation is because quite frankly people are waiting for the other shoe to drop. in most of the other cases where you've seen people who clearly have serial problems with sexual harassment and per dags, it's been a snowballing effect. i think in the case of franken you had the initial tweet with the photo, and that photographic

evidence was obviously very difficult for franken to deal with. since then you've had a few other women who say they took photographed with him and he touched them inappropriately during the pictures. i think there's a sense they're not sure that anything beyond that is going to come into the public view. perhaps the ethics investigation will show that differently, and so it's pretty clear to me based on the interviews the strategy here is to try to apology and to try to rehabilitate his image. it's a difficult thing for franken, because he's had many women work for him who has been champions for him behind the scenes. he's not a natural politician. he's a comedian first. he had to stop being funny to get elected. he had to deal with a few things in his career that were a problem that he had to address. and in the progressive movement, there's a deep feeling of betrayal. and that was really where he was getting a lot of his political support. he is going to have to, i think, do this contrition tour if he

wants to stay politically alive. >> let's bring in yamiche alcindor. it did take ten days for him to say anything. i kind of think that in some ways that that says something in itself. what do you make of this? >> it says that senator franken was really deliberating about how to deal with these issues. and i think he as many reporters who are covering this issue were i think waiting to see what other women were going to say so he could in some ways ready his defense. >> and hold that thought. i should point out that he did issue very strong apologies that were written statements. so it's not that he didn't say anything, but i'm saying that he didn't publicly push back, or also completely admit to what he is accused of. >> and he didn't do what amounted to on sunday as a media tour where he was actually kind of on an apology tour where he

was sitting down with reporters and answering tough questions. he said he understands he's connected to the photo where he's seen mockingly groping a woman and he's embarrassed. he didn't say if he thought he could still serve the people of minnesota in a way of whether or not he's compromised. you have conyers stepping aside because he said the allegations against him are too distracting. franki franken is trying to hold on for dear life. unless his colleagues in the senate turn on him, he may be able to keep his seat. it will be remarkable. he's being compared to roy moore. at some point in these conversations we're going to i think there will be a public reckoning is al franken as bad as connier or millier. >> the conversation started already. there's a general flattening of

people that i won't say the website, but they put up pictures of harvey weinstein and al franken next to each other. >> actually, "the new york times" biusiness. >> i'm just saying that you're having more and more women talking about this unnatural flattening of these accusations. lumping everybody into one place, and saying it's a public death penalty for all. that's -- to say that nuance has been lacking in some of the discussions and headlines would be an understatement. >> at the same time, it's very difficult to have the conversation because if you step out of or if you try and add nuance to it, usually the reaction is so severe that people run to their corners, heidi, and assume that you're taking a side instead of trying

to pick apart what is a very complicated problem at times it's clear predator behavior. at times somebody has an issue or a condition. at times women feel that they absolutely have no part in this at all. and i just said that. that's all i said. i'm not taking a side here. and i don't think we're looking at the whole problem when we do this. >> i think this has been one of the looming dangers from frankly the beginning of the whole me too explosion onto social media which was from the beginning we saw some horrific stores of women who had been actually assaulted, actually raped, or faced retaliation in the workplace with stories of sexual assault blended in with legitimate stories about women feeling maybe slightly

uncomfortable because a congressman put his arm around me. and that has been a problem that i think as a woman and probably many women have been concerned about, that con flags between the two which are not the same, and so we are at a point in this discussion where we also need to discuss when men like al franken come forward who may have groped someone and admits to it right away is contrite. is it fair that he is being conflated with someone like harvey weinstein? most people would say not. >> and mika, you, for instance. i mean, it is maddening when you look on twitter. twitter is the -- there's so many good things about twitter. there's so many horschrible thi about twitter. this is twitter at its worst. there is no knnuance, and you'l see people on the far right

attacking people on the left who are accused. people on the far left only attacking people on the right. i've got to say as far as people going to the corners, though, you have been shown nuance toward al franken from the beginning. and no one can say that's tribalism on your part, because you were critical of bill clinton, oh, i don't know issue. >> from the get go. >> 18 years before this second wave, this new awakening to concerns about bill clinton's affair, you were 1 yea8 years a. if you want to say al franken shouldn't be compared to harvey w weinstein, you're not saying tribal. >> someone wrote an article saying mika is against clinton now. no, i said this in realtime, i think bill clinton was a problem for hillary running against trump, because they cancel each other out on key moral issues of

our time. sexual harassment being one of them. i said that in realtime all along. kasie hunt, on capitol hill how seriously are they taking all this? i kind of feel the way nancy pelosi does about the john conyers situation, but i also know that there's a problem on the hill. >> i think that there is a sense that that is the -- these rules are completely archaic. they were an improvement at the time in the 90s when they were written, but now frankly the workers don't have their protections. and i think on the point of nancy pelosi. i've talked to a number of democrats who feel kind of betrayed by the way she approached this. they feel conyers has plenty of people to stand up for him and the challenge for the women is that this is why you don't speak up. you don't speak up, because the person you're speaking against is an icon, and so you have no power in that situation, and so i think there is going to be a lot of pressure for some of these things to change.

i would also add i've had enough people bring it up to me independently, that is the role conyers has on this committee would be the central democratic role during any impeachment process if democrats win back the house. that's important to this context to what you were talking about earlier in the show about whether conyers was the right person to serve in that job. >> all right. kasie hunt. thank you. yamiche, thank you so much as well. coming up, putting himself at odds with several top republicans, president trump is boosting roy moore's senate bid. "morning joe" will be right back. what if we could keep more amof what we earn?d. trillions of dollars going back to taxpayers.

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welcome back to "morning joe." this is what you all a tease. earlier i said we'll talk about jared kushner in saudi arabia. you've been waiting patiently for it, i know. i know you have. and you are rewarded now. when people talk about how jared is being pushed to the side and he has a much smaller role in the white house, the fact is he still has a pretty mass i roive

in the white house. he's across the middle east. and the weekend before the crowned prince had his kcrackdon in saudi arabia, some would say his reforms, jared is over throughout the entire weekend. >> i think he's effectively the secretary of state for the middle east. the bad news for jared is it's not going anywhere. he's obviously got the lead with saudi arabia. much more than the secretary of state. he got the united states to side with saudi against qatar several months ago and more recently he was just there before the big crackdown in saudi arabia. this administration has gone all in. >> he has very close ties with leaders across the middle east, doesn't he? >> the israeli leadership and the saudi leadership and the ue. the problem is the saudi leadership has done a major roll of the dice. they are pursuing an aggressive foreign policy in yemen and lebanon and so forth. at home they've essentially done a political consolidation that

risks the entire power balancing that has been the history of saudi arabia since the creation. the administration has gone all in with saudi arabia. it remains to be seen if this is a bet that pays off or blows up on the united states. >> coming up on "morning joe." >> i've said and done things i regret, and the words released today are more than a decade old video, it's one of them. anyone who knows me knows these words don't reflect who i am. i said it. i was wrong. and i apologize. >> i think the actions did. that was president trump apologizing for the access hollywood tape last year, but does he still feel sorry? we'll dig into that next on "morning joe."

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we are strengthened by due process. just because someone is accused and was it one accusation?

is it two? i think there has to be -- john conyers has done a great deal to protect women. as john reviews his case, which he knows, which i don't -- that me. may i finish my sentence. that he will do the right thing. >> do you believe john conyers' accusers. >> i don't know who they are. they haven't come forward. >> that was house minority leader. defending john conyers on "meet the press" yesterday. hours before the michigan lawmaker announced he would step down from the role. joining us now is we had you on the other day. i spoke to you at an event a few weeks ago. felt like the conversation didn't have enough time even standing backstage because there's something happening

here. i mean, there is definitely a moment has come where women feel like the fear of raising their voices about being sexually harassed is melting away, but i think we need to get to the point where we can talk about where it happened, why it happens. what are some of the surrounding factors that might enable it and how we raise it in realtime without risk of losing our jobs. so i've said a lot. i'll pair it down. i want to ask you about office conduct. you mentioned the other day that we have a role in this. because in a way, i know it's going to be frightening to talk about because people will think you're victim shaming. this is not what we're trying to do, but there are certain types of men in the workplace who are predators, sexual harassers or who have problems that they need help with that impact the women

who work there. there are certain types of women in the workplace that i've worked with over the years who participated in sleeping their way to top. >> yes. >> and that's the atmosphere in which all of this happened. >> that's what we need to talk about. first of all, we have a moment in history where women are breaking their silence. the silence has been complacent. oh, boy. don't even go on twitter for saying that. complacent, rather. complacent, when we are silent because of shame and worry and fear, then we allow it to happen. now this is broken. so this is stopping. >> it's broken. >> do we acknowledge that. acknowledge the pain. most women have stories about harassment. we need to take a moment to breeze through that. in order for this historical moment. not the moment where we fire few people, but to be a cultural

revolution. cultural change. we need to talk about the big picture. what happened. how did we get here. and to talk about the big picture, we need to talk about the institutions that allowed that. we have not treated women as equal. we still are not tweeted equal. we don't get paid equally. when we complain they blame it on us usually. there are so many issues. in order for this not to be a big guy's discussion, only the rich and famous. now we don't project or anger. that we protect and defend the lower ranking women when she has grievance. one that. that way ranking women can see it in realtime. think about the big picture. we need protection. we need training. how industries.

advertising industry. how to objectified women and lowered women's images. and we need to talk about the women who also played a role in that. we're not only recipient of this. objectify occasion of women and sending messages. >> it's a small part. heidi, you want to jump in or stay out of it. >> i mean, there is definitely the best part of the discussion that the relevant and difficult as women to have, it must be had which is the aspect of participation. how much of this is women also hurting other women who may have participated in this behavior in the workplace. that's an aspect of this that is legitimate.

doesn't take away from the fact that women are just victims. it's not a black and white issue. that is the difficulty in analyzing this. >> i think we need to find the right solution. push back. >> when the contract is up, you don't have to think for hours and hour and days and days. maybe he has a crush on me. no, you can think that's sexual harassment. right away. and say that is sexual harassment. i'd like to work for you and you can make a decision. if this ever happens again or my job is impacted we're going to have a big problem. if you stop right now and leave me alone, we may not have a problem. that might be the decision you make personally, but you got to know sexual harassment when you see it. you can't be blind to it. >> a lot of men don't know actually. that's the discussion. >> i think women should know. >> we should know and men should know. that's the discussion we need to do. when you touch her like this. when you touch her like this. when you say this.

we need to have a public education. >> i had a very high end boss ask me if i would participate in a sexual act with him. i remember saying it was very politely said -- i remember saying no, but i absolutely love my job and i loved working for him and i hope that can continue. and it did. and it never happened again. and i thrived. >> and that's what standing up. >> i'm not saying that's the solution for everybody, but i'm just saying there are so many different dimensionings to this conversation. so women do. >> some women do. and in order to take this to the next level, we need men to engage in the discussion. >> so which men? only the good men. >> publically. the men need to discuss it. >> you guys are dead silent. >> exactly. all the men have been dead

assignment silent. >> do we want to hear from the harassers themselves. >> i want the harassers to publically understand why his behavior was wrong. >> me too. i want to hear that. >> so he can impact other men. we need to reach out to the average men in the locker room so they don't speak about women the way they are speaking. >> i suggest you and i do not open or phones today or read twitter, but i think it was a really productive conversation. i would love for you to come back. >> would love that. heidi, thank you for jumping in. still ahead. president trump launches another attack on the so-called fake news, but touts a website that traffics in conspiracy theories at the same time. "morning joe" will be right back. cable. just like some people like wet grocery bags. getting a bad haircut. overcrowded trains. turnstiles that don't turn. and spilling coffee on themselves. but for everyone else, there's directv.

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such as kidney, liver, or bleeding problems. it's important to learn all you can... ...to help protect yourself from a stroke. talk to your doctor about xarelto®. there's more to know™. i didn't make my family disappointed in me because we had some news to deal with as we were driving and they kind of looked at me and said the

lengths you'll go to get out of driving. >> >> i'm guessing was it the flynn news. >> yes. >> so that's good place before we get # the news. this happened while we were all getting ready for thanksgiving dinner. our family was all flooding in. my son actually said did you hear the news about flynn. reporter now starting. so that was an interesting somehow managed. i said we don't talk about politics. so somebody said. >> that's a little provacative. >> we didn't mention it. >> just having fun.

>> your brother thaulought thats okay. >> no. >> it's actually fun. we'll play it on the break. >> it's hysterical. >> you're busy. >> mike, so this thanksgiving. thanksgiving day it broke, what can you tell us about it. >> it looks like it happened on wednesday. the lawyers for flynn called trump's lawyers and said, look, we can't talk to you anymore. share information with you anymore about the. secondly. because of that. you know, we sort of have to go

flynn's son who said everybody calm down. have a reason for saying that. is there any other explanation other than they are either not cooperating with mueller's investigation or they are preparing to cooperate with the investigation. >> i don't think it's much to do about nothing. the assumption by trump's lawyers is there's a few things going on. he's cooperating. he's pled guilty to something. they're pretty sure of that. they don't understand why this would happen for any other reason. now, they've tried to publically down play this and say this is not a big deal. we assumed that plflynn would plead garnishmentuilty. at the same time, it's deeply troubling for them. the question that not only is flynn looking at significant criminal exposure. his son is looking after the same exact thing.

flynn is very motivated to try and save his son from having to go to prison. and is willing to do anything to stop that. and because of that, he's trying to figure out how he can help mueller and prove to mueller that you know he has something to give up. so he was a pretty significant sdwomt. >> the fact it actually was information sharing arrangement to get all the information from the trump team as they were preparing. they also have been gather. so that makes a bad situation even worse for the trump team e. doesn't it. >> it does. you remember earlier this year flynn's lawyer when they were reporting that flynn was looking for some sort of immunity from congressional investigators that michael flynn has a story to tell.

story telling that it could be concerning. very interesting to lay the groundwork to try to distance themselves for flynn. that's going to be very hard. you had white house officials telling christen welk well. flynn was in the white house and we know that robert mueller. serving as national security adviser. this is a very significant development and gets this much closer to the white house. we've seen previously. >> john, you'll know this as well. and you can fill out a bit of the information of what i gathered just talking through the trump campaign throughout the election cycle. they always said general flynn,

always on the plane with donald because he kept donald calm. had to sit right with him. next to him. >> sit with him all the time. he was the one going to keep him in check. actually say he's a moderating influence on donald. want him sitting next to donald at all times. these two were extraordinarily close. >> you think about two in building this case. whatever the case with mueller ends up with. the two people that generally the most focus are paul manafort and michael flynn. orders of magnitude different in terms of proximity to trump and amount of time they spend with trump. both as karl points out because flynn was not just a player in the campaign, but also for a brief time was at the pinnacle of power inside the white house before he was fired. also because trump overstates the degree to which trump manafort was a stranger. manafort was around for six months or so. then there was communication that continued, but he was not

every ever on the plane with donald trump every single day. flynn flew around the country with trump constantly. was the person at the top of the foreign policy apparatus the person who had discussions with trump constantly about the pertinent issue in question. which is russia. something discussing with him in formal settings. informal settings. during the campaign. formative stages and again in the white house. he is again not discounting how important manafort is. flynn just in terms of what he could give to robert mueller's team is influential. you say manafort. as a worker bee. the inner circle in the same way, but flynn, flynn was there every second. >> remember he was lurking at

the door. supposed to be a private flight. lurking at the door listening to everything. >> that wasn't the white house. that was downstairs. >> it was weird. it was just weird. all right. a lot more to get to. this is fascinating. president trump took aim at reporters over the weekend. many in harm's way. while promoting a website that lavishes with prayers and spreads conspiracy theories. president tweeted fox news is much more important in the united states than cnn, but outside of the u.s., cnn international is still a major source of fake news. and they represent our nation to the world very poorly. the outside world does not see the truth from them. later retweeteds a accomplishment list by the website. and wrote, wow. i didn't realize we did so much.

wish the fake news would report. thank you. the conservative weekly standard describes the suggested news source as a website that sends conspiracy theories aligned itself to the a lot right and white nationalist movements. among the claims, falls flag terrorism and mass shootings for gun control also earthquake machines to destabilize regions and the use of trauma based mind control. and that is just one post. this as the president complained about the russia, russia, russia, investigation and claimed i have the economy booming and have possibly done more than any ten month president. you know what, i'm sorry. this is where somebody onset needs to say wow, that person seems unhinged. unbalanced. and unfit to be president. he really seems out of his minds. >> there are a lot of things the president throws out there just

to shock and stun people. attacking the free press that actually continues to speak trooult truth to power. making mistakes from time to time, but doing that and actually dem grating the work of reporters who go out every day across the globe. reporting in bosnia. every single day risk their lives and here's if president trump had noknown the facts. he would have never sent this tweet. here is my camera woman who took

a bullet in the face for recovering the facts and truth in bosnia. facts first. and this happened so much with reporters across the globe. this happens so much with cnn, which across the globe really is sort of like the bbc is. across the globe, but again, it's donald trump attacking the free press. so much of this other nonsense. nfl come on. all this other stuff. he's purposely trying to pick fights. here, this is a challenge to the first amendment of the united states and a free press. republicans and democrats and independents need to all speak up and speak out. there are some things that we have to be united on. forget all the other tweets this weekend. forget the nonsense. forget the constant noise machine, but when he attacks the free press, when he attacks independent judiciary.

when he attacks our constitutional republic, we got to speak out together. these are the foundations of our democracy. certainly free press constitutes our democracy. even the founders of our country envisioned that independent professional journalists would be in a position to hold people in power accountable for the way that they wielded the power of the american people. that is a critical element to the functioning of our democracy. there's a difference between as outrageous as it is to attack counselorists here in the united states who enjoyed protections of the first amendment and hold people in power accountable. another thing all together to go out and attack independent professional journalists who are risking their lives in war zones, in some of the most remote places on the planet. to bring us actual information about what's happening around the world. the kind of information the kinds of stories that riles consciousness. to make sure the united states

and people who live here are aware of what's happening around the world and can respond to it. so when we saw for example a couple of years ago the crisis around the wave of migrant flows. north africa and the middle east. journalists on the front lines risks lives to tell that story. we needed to know what happened there. to undermine them in a gratuitous flippant way on twitter is egregious for anyone to do. >> got beaten up by congressional candidate. dude was immediately arrested. cuffed him. >> run for the united states congress. >> and who ultimately won. the guy had mug shots probably within you know 12 hours. they put up with it. >> so our law enforcement officers as you said.

they're going to protect. they understand the first amendment. let's say there's a cnn international reporter or nbc news reporter that's in turkey. and maybe they do something that the government doesn't like. they've already got the message. you grot the preside you've got the president saying this is fake news. this is propaganda. maybe we throw them in jail. maybe we do worse. president of the united states is going to mind. withdra whereas they would know under any other president, don't screw with the american journalists because if you do, you're going to get a call from the american embassy in five minutes and things are going to go badly for you very quickly. that message hasn't been sent by an administration. that doesn't even have ambassadors in these outposts and now sent a message to tyrants from turkey to russia. do away what you want with our

reporters because we don't like them because they won't kiss our ass every day on the air and spew propaganda 24 hours a day and lie to their viewers about how we're doing. >> any time there's disagreement with the white house or not an effort. that's really the issue. those are the ones they take on. long history in this point the elected officials including the president and attorney general. and parting ridicule in countries that treat journalists the wong way. to your point, not only do you give license to the way they treat the journalist, they almost celebrate it. how that present and project news globally. it's another piece of icing on this cake how this president behaves in a poor way. >> it's really a stretch to say he's fit.

still ahead on morning joe, president doubles down on support of roy moore. there's a new report that trump is privately questione eed authenticity of the access hollywood tape for which he's already apologized. you're watching morning joe. we'll be right back. ♪ it's a lot easier to make decisions when you know what comes next. if you move your old 401(k) to a fidelity ira, we make sure you're in the loop at every step from the moment you decide to move your money to the instant your new retirement account is funded. ♪ oh and at fidelity, you'll see how all your investments are working together. because when you know where you stand, things are just clearer. ♪ just remember what i said about a little bit o' soul ♪ things are just clearer. the lowest price of the year. for just $59- it's the only dna test that can trace your origins to over 150 ethnic regions- and open up a world of possibilities. save 40% at ancestrydna.com.

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roy moore's accusers. even the president's own recorded remarks. remember those. on sunday trump tweeted against the democratic candidate doug jones saying the last thing we need in alabama and the u.s. senate is a schumer pelosi puppet who is weak on crime. not weak on the border. bad more military. bad the way not. great vet. bad for second amendment and

wants to raise taxes to the sky. jones would be a disaster. the "new york times" reports that president trump has told senate majority leader mitch mcconnell that the woman might not be telling the truth. trump suggested to a senator earlier this year that the tape was not authentic. and apparently repeated that claim to an adviser more recently. however, trump has repeatedly admitted to making the comments and apologized for them. >> i've said and done things i regret. the words released on this more than a decade old video are one of them. anyone who knows me, knows these words don't reflect who i am. i said it. i was wrong. and i apologize. well, i mean, this is donald

trump goes back and forth and back and forth and changes the facts. so he apologized. he admitted saying it. now he's saying it might be fake. we shouldn't be shocked, should we. >> no. at the time when the tape came out at trump tower when they were waiting to see it. his first theory was this tape is going to be fake. there's not going real. it's going to be phony. when they actually heard it for the first time. he was like, well, i guess that's me. env she he continued to say is it edited some way? he's a conspiracy theorist. he traffics websites that are conspiracy shoetheorily litheor he eventually took on all the women who came forward and accused him. he claimed they were all liars and said they were going to sue them all. hasn't sued any of them. not surprising to me at this date now more than a year later, he's back in his mind to this is all a conspiracy.

this is all a fraud. he's telling people i never said those things. forget about what i said in the campaign. this is all made up. >> right. >> fake news. >> almost repeating the story back to himself. which he does. >> yes. he'll repeat a story over and over and convince himself of his own set of facts. >> roy moore is uniquely unqualified to be in the united states senate. doug jones is not soft on crime. puts murders in jails. in line with the best and strongest cases to be brought in the nation's history i he's been one of the biggest proponents of health spending. he's been smart and outspoken about it. the fake news is coming from him about doug jones. if you look at doug jones record in alabama. you will see someone that alabama who represents the values of alabama who just happens to be a democratic. coming up on morning joe. opposition in rex tillerson state department have gone

unfilled. more diplomats expected to leave and new concern according to the "new york times" that tillerson has been repeatedly turning down security briefings. plus, it's cyber monday and millions of americans are expected to purchase something online today. we're going to talk about what small businesses are doing to keep up with the competition. morning joe will be bright back.

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needs of their families and perhaps everyone to have a night you see a bill passing by christmas? i do believe in prayer. i hope we get it done through christmas. if not, we'll be here through christmas looking at the end of the year. >> i believe in prayer too. that was a good answer. >> joining us now, jeff bennett. jeff, president trump is said to huddle with republicans over the next few days to try to lock down the votes needed to get a tax plan approved. what's on the agenda. >> that's right the president is going all in on tax reform this week with vote and senate scheduled as early as this week. president as you mentioned is going to have lunch here today with the vice president and some members of the senate finance

committee. i'm told by a white house official that senators warren hatch who you see on the screen, senator pat toomey. senator scott who we heard from earlier. senator cornyn and reportman a handful of members to meet with the president today. republican tax plan seems to have a little bit of momentum. it of course passed the house. passed the senate finance committee. got a boost. was a hold yut. says she will vote for it in exchange for drilling she got in alaska. and the president i'm told is feeling pretty good, feeling pretty optimistic about the prospects for his tax plan. he tweeted some hours ago this, he writes, back in d.c., big week for tax cuts and many other things of great importance to our country. senate republicans hopefully come through for all of us. tax cut bill is getting better and better. end result will be great for all.

it appears voters are not buying the message about the tax plan. take away from recent poll. voters on republican tax plan. 52% disapprove of the republican tax bill. see just 25% approve and then when you break it down bipartisan lines. look at the republican number here. says 62% or rather 60% of republicans approve whereas just 15% approve of that bill. so you know, there are still some holdouts in the senate. the senate can only afford to lose two votes. at least six republican senators who have a lot of concern so that's the focus on the president today and he's going to be on capitol hill tomorrow to rally the troops ahead of the scheduled vote. nbc. thank you very much. seems that the voters don't see it as a big beautiful tax cut. what is the timeline on voting.

>> look, they're trying to get it done by christmas, obviously. the problem is they have to cell these three or four votes. they can try a career or two. the one thing they're maybe about to do is not popular mplts moving on. joining us u.s. ambassador for the organization of security and cooperation in europe under president obama and current diplomat and resident at university of denver school of international studies. in response to "new york times" report, about rex tillerson's ongoing reluctant to meet and collaborate with staff at the state department. daniel tweeted this, this is outrageous. if bob corker doesn't call immediate hearing, senate along with tillerson, will have blood on their hands if diplomat gets hurt. this is a moment for congressional oversight.

what's going on at the state department or more importantly, what's not going on? >> exactly mika. we seem to have ventured from kind of general and competence which was disappointing. >> seems willful and competent. >> exactly. now to a stage of negligence. not only do we see talent that is really important to national security fleeing the state department in droves or being pushed out. we now hear these latest reports of secretary tillerson failing to get key security briefings. that puts depo matts at risk. these are american public servants that work every day. to advance u.s. interest around the world. they deserve the security and protection that they need in order to do their work. is really a shame their boss, their leader is neglecting to take care of them. >> is it possible he doesn't understand, he doesn't comprehend what is needed in order to have a functioning effective state department?

i have to say in confidence and negligence seem too soft. reading the "new york times" over the weekend. seems to me a purposeful plan is being cared out to hollow out the state department. this is intentional. you can like it or dislike it. clearly you dislike it. i don't think negligence is the issue now. looks like secretary tillerson came in and said i'm going to through other means, i'm going to try to basically gut the state department. is that not what the story basically conveyed to you. >> i think you're right. there's a difference between saying i'm going to try to cut 30% from the state department. impossible to continue the functions they need to do on behalf of the american people. there's a difference between that and willfully reflecting to take security briefings which ends up sabotaging the very mission of the state department. gone from a point last summer i wrote they needed to apologize to the american people for endorsing tillerson and supporting his nomination.

they should be calling for him to be fired. we have reached a point tillerson should be removed. it's unacceptable. his behavior in this job. >> secretary mattis i believe had sort of a famous comment about this. if you're going to cut funding for the state department, you better increase funding so i can buy more bullets for the department of defense. the work the diplomats are doing on the front line are effective preventing war and conflict that ultimately cost american lives. i guess the question for you related to senator cork er. are they hearing the same kind of thing we're reading in the "new york times." >> i had a good relationship with both members of the parties when i was serving overseas i enjoyed when senators came to visit and engaged in our work.

i'm sure senator corker has good relationships with people in the state department. one of the problems with the kind of failures of leadership that we've seen both from the white house and from the state department is that diplomats may not feel secure speaking up to senator candidly right now. one of the jobs for the senate is to provide oversight for the executive branch. this is an opportunity for senator corker who made it clear he is no longer interested in maintaining a polite relationship with the president he deems a failure. this is an opportunity for him to exercise that kind of oversight as chair of the fsrc. >> so what does this negligence look like? what key roles are not being filled? what positions are empty? what alliances potentially could be impacted long-term? str strategic alliances because of vacancies in the state department. >> failure to fill the state department like the other bureaucracies in the federal system is set up to respond to

political leadership. political impulses. that's the design. it's a failure to fill key positions, assistant secretary jobs under secretary jobs et cetera. >> a lot. just a few. >> dozens of these. >> and very slow to nominate people and nominating people with questionable qualifications in some cases. he's directed a senior career officer working for mooins. this is politicizing the career diplomatic cord that we depend on. >> for the average person out there who thinking i've heard of ambassadors and they talk to other people in the government. a third of them are donors. what's the big deal. walk us through a concrete example. if there's a crisis in the world somewhere. what is the role that the u.s. in particular will play typically and our state department will play typically

in rallying around action and solution to our problem. >> i mean, i think first of all, it's important to understand that the united states by nature of our success in the world has interest everywhere in the world. we have citizens living everywhere in the world. we have businesses doing business everywhere in the world. when a crisis occurs in the world, it unavoidably implicates u.s. interest. the international community will always turn to the united states first and look to us to lead -- not necessarily going to pay for everything. >> are they now. >> decreasingly. a lot of our friends in europe look at what's going on right now diplomatic part of europe looks at what is going on in the united states as a kind of psychotic episode and hoping we will recover in 2020 and restore principal to american leadership. the united states for the last 70 years has been the long poll in the tent. the thing stable when other

things are unstable. >> are we seen as stable. >> i think we're seen as stable. we're not just seen as leaders right now. people don't realize hfragile ad precious things are until they're gone. american leadership depends on the trust and confidence of the world. >> yes. i like that. psychotic episode in history. that's one way of putting it. >> you know, when i talk to my former colleagues, other ambassadors from other countries, there's a deep love for american principles and values and the leadership we have historically brought. and a yearning to see that return. that actually speaks well for all that i'm pessimistic about in this day and age. hunger for us to return to the world stage. not in a domineering way, but being the leader of free world of universal values and an example for others. >> former ambassador, thank you so much. appreciate it. coming up.

last year's small business owners generated reported $15 billion thanks to shoppers who turned out on the saturday after thanksgiving, but how did small business saturday go this year. we'll talk about that next on "morning joe." us. it's what this country is made of. but right now, our bond is fraying.

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it was so cute. i was so happy. by the way, you can buy your dog a santa uniform too. maybe at a small business near you. >> friday was black friday. >> saturday was what. >> small business saturday. >> monday is what. >> psycyber monday. >> what is tuesday. >> this past saturday was the eighth annual small business saturday where consumers are encouraged to shop small.

joining us now, host of your business which airs on weekend morning at 7:30 a.m. on msnbc. your business is sponsored by american express which is the founding partner of small business saturday. which i love. >> so, it's so fascinating how tumultuous our economy has been, especially with retail. barnes and noble, basically wipes out small bookstores. amazon wipes out a lot of those big books, barnes and noble types. you see sort of kick back to going to independent bookstores again. people shopping local again. it's interesting the unintended consequences of the growth of amazon. is main street america starting to do better than it was five years ago. >> i think people's awareness that they need to shop at main street is doing better.

this small business saturday the awareness was 70%. this started eight years ago. we talked about it then. nobody knew what small business saturday was. i don't think people were thinking i need to go shop small. i think they were thinking this is amazing. it's convenient. i can go on amazon and i think the awareness if you don't shop on main street, it is going to disappear is becoming much more common. it's true. small business saturday it's not just saturday. it's just like on black friday isn't the only day you go to these you know door busting gift box stores. it's just the kickoff to knowing that you got to shop at these stores or they're going to be gone. >> you're spreading the word. the branding of small business saturday itself spreads the word. you're saying the awareness is there. doesn't sound like the numbers are there. >> they're getting there. 108 million people shop small. retailers are starting to think differently. there's some really neat small businesses doing different things. we did a story recently on a

company called mgmi. it's a small business. they sell shoes. they're having showcase of stores. where you go in, you try on the shoes, but then you eventually buy them online. when we think of small business, it's not just the stores on main street. it's online stores also. so, yes, they're struggling. right. big box stores are struggling right now too. a lot of them stores are closing, but a lot of small businesses are being clever about the way they're drawing people in. >> it can also be incredibly inconvenient to shop online. you get the wrong thing. it's a pain to send it back. ordered turkey brine. spilled in the box. all over the floor. >> i didn't know that happened. >> i'm just saying the boxes, sometimes it's. >> the boxes. >> i'm so sick of the boxes sgls i have a lot of boxes in the house. if you go in a big box store, you wonder around for 20 minutes looking for something to help

you. >> if you go to a small store, someone right there to help you. and a proprietor who knows it. >> we do the small business saturday show from a different town across the country. this year in franklin tennessee. in this place and it was a lovely store. right. it's the kind of place you want to go with your friends for a day to just wonder around. go have lunch. wonder around the store. find something you wouldn't think of buying until it's right there in front of you. it's an experience. right. it's an experience in a way that shopping online isn't. >> the big overall question here. we're heading into the holiday season. consumer spending is usually important to the american economy. somehow retail doing? >> broadly, it's doing okay. supposed to be up 3% this holiday season. online sales are supposed to be up even more. right. it's off of a smaller base, but still online is still capturing

more than it used to, but it's still tough. even though we're doing okay now. a lot of the stores are going to have trouble getting people in the door. >> a lot of the challenges is how to have two ways of shopping coexist. online isn't going away. >> that's right. look, certain things if you're going to buy 20 paper towels, perhaps amazon. for smaller things, is there a way people can allocate their buying or think about the slightly higher price they would pay at a smaller store as an investment of community. >> well, so that's what you need to think about. right. do you care about your community? when you spend a dollar at your community store, that store is around when you need it. and also that dollar goes to support the local baseball team right and the local contractor and it's about knowing you're going the find something that you might not find elsewhere. you're going to have customer service you don't have online and you're going to have this

kmu community that you care about. >> thank you so much. great to have you on the show. up next, never seen anything like this before in politics. that's something you often here from historians and political commentators about president trump. trump does have something specific in common with fdr and jfk. we're going explain that straight ahead on "morning joe." so that's the idea. what do you think? hate to play devil's advocate but... i kind of feel like it's a game changer. i wouldn't go that far. are you there? he's probably on mute. yeah... gary won't like it. why? because he's gary. (phone ringing) what? keep going! yeah... (laughs) (voice on phone) it's not millennial enough. there are a lot of ways to say no. thank you so much. thank you! so we're doing it. yes! "we got a yes!" start saying yes to your company's best ideas. let us help with money and know-how, so you can get business done. american express open. aand it's now just $59! of the season. but the real gift isn't what's inside the box.

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it's a lot easier to make decisions when you know what comes next. if you move your old 401(k) to a fidelity ira, we make sure you're in the loop at every step from the moment you decide to move your money to the instant your new retirement account is funded. ♪ oh and at fidelity, you'll see how all your investments are working together. because when you know where you stand, things are just clearer. ♪ just remember what i said about a little bit o' soul ♪

joining us now, historian and best-selling author robert dellic. his new book is "franklin d. roosevelt, a political life." he writes this about fdr, considering franklin's life almost 75 years after it ended allows us the distance to weigh dispassionately the influences that facilitated his reach for and use of power. there was much about franklin roosevelt that still seems unremarkable, but some attributes, supreme self-confidence and unfailing self-reliance, distinguished him from earlier and later aspirants and help explains why he stands apart from almost all of america's other leaders. >> thank you for being with us. my very, very, very republican

mother was born in rural georgia, dalton georgia, back in 1932. when fdr died in 1945, she and her family were shattered. and my mother said, we literally didn't know if the world was going to continue. she said he was like our king and we practically worshiped him. >> you know, joe, when he died, somebody stopped mrs. roosevelt on the street and said to her, i miss the way your husband used to speak to me about my government. and who can imagine that being said about any politician now. the man -- a man stood by the railroad track as the body was being moved from warm springs georgia to hyde park. he was sobbing. said somebody to him, did you know the president? he said no, but he knew me.

>> wow. >> it really is such a testimony to how he had -- >> a built to touch people. >> ability to touch people. >> we often look at historical figures and many people will look at winston churchill in 1940 and think winston churchill was always that winston churchill of 1940. you read some accounts of fdr before he got polio, before he became president of the united states and a lot of people just regarded him as a lightweight, didn't they? >> absolutely. they called him a feather duster. >> okay. >> and of course i think the polio had a huge impact on him. because, you know, what he did for the country which was so important, he didn't end the depression. that took industrial mobilization. because in 1940 there was still 10 million people who were unemployed but industrial

mobilization did that. he humanized the american system. those programs, social security, national youth administration, the ccc, i won't go on, all those alphabet agencies that they put in place. so there was a kind of humanity to him. and even more so to eleanor roosevelt. because she was extraordinary. >> so there was a humanity to him and he was able to connect with people. you also write about his ability to make deals. >> yes. >> that you say was a brilliance that he -- >> without question. he understood the tremendous importance of creating consensus in this country. and he brought the country together. you know, when he came into office, there was still leftover from the 1920s the bitter divide between the modernist and the fundamentalist. by the end of his term, there was this consensus in the country that he had done extraordinary things and not

only did he humanize the american industrial system, the country shifted from isolationism to interinternationalism. it became much more realistic foreign policy government. >> he also benefiteded to a large degree on the fact that the predicate for his election was the great depression. >> absolutely. >> he was able to mobilize anger against the big banks for what they'd done to american society. beyond that, i'm kind of curious what he was like as a communicator. these fireside chat, the ability to use a new medium. i'm not comparing him to donald trump, don't worry about it, but we have presidents who are able to take advantage of the new waves of technology and it seems like fdr was a bit of a revolutionary in that. >> he was, because he used radio and these fireside chats were -- they resonated powerfully across the country. sunday nights, people would gather around the radio. and if you go to fdr memorial in washington, you'll see people sitting around the radio,

listening to him. and of course john kennedy used television. to give his due to trump, he used twitter. >> seasoned social media. >> that's correct. >> direct line, fdr, kennedy, trump. >> thank you so much. >> no, but they did, those three that you just named though, they really did, they used the medium that was in front of them to connect. let me ask you, 19 -- the late 1980s, and i don't know he meant it as a compliment, but george will wrote a column, the conservativist columnist, that said we are all children of fdr now. basically saying social security's not going to be moved. >> no. >> and the safety net's not going to move. are we still all these years later in 2017, are we still when it comes to government all children of fdr? >> i think without question. that he set in motion that

welfare state. which is never going to go away. i mean, you know it alters and steps back, a little bit forward. president obama liked to talk to presidential historians and at one dinner, they were talking about the difficulty of enforcing the affordable care act. and i said to them, look, this is a legacy from fdr. a continuation of this kind of humane approach to public affairs in this country. and that's -- there's a wonderful book by bill lucketterburg, historian, called in the shadow of fdr, and how every president somehow -- why do we always talk about the 100 days? >> right. >> from roosevelt. >> well, this is amazing. the book is "franklin d. roosevelt, a political life," fascinating, robert dulleck, thank you.

that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. >> thanks much, mika, thanks, joe. hi there, i'm stephanie ruhle with a lot to hit this morning. starting with mixed message. congressman john conyers steps aside from a key post amid a sexual harassment probe as his party's leader gives what many call a tone def af response. >> john conyers is an icon in our country. he will do the right thing. >> and who's the boss. the acting head of the consumer financial protection bureau sues the administration after president trump names mick mulvaney. >> we're not supposed to create agencies not accountable to the american people. >> back to work. a deadline to avoid a shutdown looms as the margin to pass tax reform narrows. >> failure's not an option when it comes to the republican party and cutting taxes. >> we begin this