>> good morning, it's thursday, november 30th. welcome to "morning joe." . with us on set we have republican strategist and political commentator susan dell persio, national political reporter for nbc news, carol lee. the president on the council on foreign relations and author of the book "a world in disarray," richard haase. white house reporter for usa today heidi briz bill la, fellow at the london school of economics and author of the "despots accomplice" brian clause. good to have you all on board in morning. >> how long have we been doing this ten years? >> ten and change. >> i think this is the first time i caught myself at 6:00 in the morning looking through the papers just trying to find something to cover. >> oh, c'mon. >> like this was, was yesterday was it just me, was yesterday like one of the most boring, look at a beach in manhattan. >> a waterfall.

>> the critical show. we want to talk about that? >> no, actually the news the pretty pressing, a series of alarming tweets by the president sparked an international uproar. >> i guess that balloon is a dust cloud. it's all about timing, i hear. you know, you could have looked at me like that whole, joe, why are you so stupid? then rolled your eyes and then done that. >> well, but it is actually raising serious concerns about his fitness to serve at this point. >> yes, i am quite aware of that. >> right. >> the editorial news reads in part. only those completely under his spell can deny what growing numbers of americans have long suspected. the president of the united states is profoundly unstable. he is mad. he is by any honest layman definition unwell. >> that's the new york daily

news, a newspaper donald trump has read every day for decades. >> "new york times" reporter maggie haberman said something is unleashed with him lately. i don't know what's causing it. i don't know how to describe it. >> and willie, obviously, maggie haberman is closer to donald trump than anybody, maggie and bob costas at the washington post, usually the first person he calls when he wants to get information out. she's followed him for years, a tough new york reporter, has been for a very long time. but what was so crazy about yesterday is, we sat on this set for the first two hours and we are talking about how troubling it was he was walking around muttering about conspiracy theories behind closed doors at

mar-a-lago. we go to break, in the 8 hoochlt hour he tweeted out white supremist videos from the united kingdom that are fake and the white house spokesperson says it doesn't matter whether they're fake or not. right. then of course after the show, he tweeted out another conspiracy theory for a woman and her family, which we will go back two or three days, we have morgan the chaos that was going with jeff bezos and this comes in the midst of a nuclear showdown with north korea. what is the cabinet waiting for? what are the republicans waiting for? it's never going to get more

deadly serous than it is right now. >> you picked a fight with our closest allie over the videos he shared from a white supremacist. think about that. first of all the fact that he would retweet those videos, unverified from a white supremacist and say, god bless you, trump, in your support of our cause of white supremacy and we don't stand for this in our country, these are bad people, for him to come back and say, we're doing just fine over here, maybe you should worry about your own house, these tweet, they're not just frivolous, they have actual impacts on relationships we have around the world and on policy. >> the problem, mika, is that we are not fine in this country. i said america will be strong. we will survive this. but right now, at this

particular moment and we will get to this in a moment with richard haase, we are headed towards a nuclear showdown, most insiders say it matches everything we've heard from inside the administration, we are closer to war on the korean peninsula that most americans know, we said this months ago, we will have a ground war, they believe that inside the white house for a very long time. yet, he se completely detached from reality. we had a "new york times" and washington piece saying so a couple of days ago if this is not what the 20th amendment was drafted for, i would like the cabinet members serving america. >> america? you serve america and you know it.

you know you don't serve donald j. trump, scam developer, scam you know trump university proprietor. reality tv show host, you don't represent him. you represent 320 million people woes lives are literally in your hands and we are facing a showdown with a nuclear power and have you somebody inside the white house somebody at the new york daily news says is mentally unfit, people close to him say is mentally unfit, people close to him during the campaign told me had early stages of dementia. now, listen, you can get mad at me. >> you can say it's not okay to say, but it is reality. >> when are we supposed to say this after the first nuclear missile goes is that when it's proper to bring this up in

polite society? tell me. general mattis, when is it polite to bring this up in polite society? rex tillerson, when is this the right time to talk about a mentally unstable president in the white house and a nuclear showdown with another unstable madman in north korea? is it after the first nuclear missiles fly? what exactly is the right time, steve mnuchin? >> pence. >> mike pence, guess what, republicans want you to be president. the republicans in the house would love you to be president of the united states. you know why? because you're stable. and here's the thing. everybody around donald trump knows he's not stable. everybody around donald trump knows he's not stable now. >> kelly.

>> everybody. and yet, this continues. >> we will be talking to kara lee about what members should do, if anybody in the republican party had a spine or a brain or a moral compass. >> can i ask you before we get to this, let's talk to richard for one second. >> i don't want to back into the news, because we have a lot of news on north korea. >> i know, that's what i wanted to ask richard, how dangerous are things right now regarding north korea? let's set this up first then we'll get into it. how dangerous are things? am i overstating the possibility of war with north korea? >> the short answer is no i think the possibility of an incident between american and north korean, either aircraft or ships is significant. what worries me is if there were to be an incident, say north

korea puts radar on a b 1 bomber, the ships collide, does anyone seriously think these two governments given the level of vitry ol are in a what i to manage a crisis, it's not necessary will i the bolt from the blue that either side introduces on lang range missiles, that simply we don't have the relationship to control. it's one of the many reasons. >>. >> one of the things besides this we don't have an ambassador if south korea, which as you are saying, if something grew out of an incident, joe, that's difficult, because people say you can't just start a war with north korea, because there is south korea to worry about, japan there's congress. if something gross out of an incident, then it allows you to bypass the question of who started? you are reacting to a six.

it becomes tactic am, self defence. as a result, that's the scenario that concerns me most. again, not the out of the blue cold attack, but something that grows out of things, which allows us to bypass the normal checks we have to make on our ability to use military force. >> so with that in mind, the president was tweeting yesterday about well among other things the conspiracy theory about, joe, being a murderer. and released a statement concerning the president's tweet in which he attacked joe. i'll read it. because i wrote it. i'll speak for joe and myself here. joe has stated that responding to president trump's tweets are a waste of his time. today the president crossed another deeply disturbing line with his attack on joe, the chief law enforcement officer of the united states of america advanced a false conspiracy theory to intimidate the press and cause a chilling effect on the first amendment.

joe and i are not intimidate and his bizarre behavior contravenes both the constitution and basic moral judgment. there is ul all we're going to say on the matter. we are continue to focus on more pressing issues like the nuclear conflict with north korea. we hope the president will do the same. so we'll focus more now on, if t. united nations security council convened the latest missile launch. ambassador nikki haley again issued a dire warning. >> yesterday, the north korean regime made a choice. it cho ez to feed its nuclear aggression. it chose to thumb its nose at the civilized world. it chose to challenge the patience of a world united against its recklessness. we have never sought war with north korea and still today we do not seek it. if war does come, it will be because of continued acts of aggression like we witnessed

yesterday. and if war comes, makes i make no mistake the north korean regime will be utterly destroyed. the continuing development of these missile systems demands that countries further isolate the kim regime. so today, we call on all nations to cut off all ties with north korea. president trump called chinese president xi this morning and told them that we have come to the point that china must cut off the oil for north korea. >> that would be a pivotal step in the world's effort to stop this international pariah. china must show leadership and follow through. china can do this on its own or we can take the oil situation into our own hands. >> meanwhile, president trump took time during his speech on tax reform to coin a new nickname for north korea's leader kim jong-un. >> we're going to protect our country, whether it's north korea or any -- we will protect

our country like never before. because these massive tax cuts will be rocket fuel -- hmm. little rocketman -- rock fume for the american economy. he is a sick puppy. >> a sick puppy. >> you always hear he projects, like whatever he is, he projects it accuses other people. >> this is in the middle of the crisis we're talking about. the president tweeted he spoke with china's president xi jinping announcing additional quote sanction will be set today. no new sanctions were announced yesterday. brian clause in london. let me go to you on this. pick up on what richard haase was talking about. what is your greatest concern as you look at the stakes, as you look at the players on the field

and president trump and kim jong-un, what could happen here? >> reporter: well, there was a huge scope for miscalculation. that's how a lot of wars started. we have two people unstable and have nuclear weapons and prone to being defensive within it comes to their ogoes at play. the invasion of kuwait started because of a misinterpretation of signals. try to interpret donald trump's signals and nikki haley's diplomatic signals and which ones are the ones to be sent from the white house. that's where the scope is for an escalation, a provocation to spiral into a conflict that kills hundreds of thousands of people and serves nobody's interests. >> you have been talking obviously for a long time. you wrote a book about authoritarianism on the rise. take what's happened over the past 48 hours, can you take what happened over the past ten, 11 months and talk about that. but just do you sense a quickening of the pace of this

president's autocratic tendencies? >> absolutely. i'm worried about i. retweeting a britain first account linked to neo-nazis and provokes a spat with our allies. you have demonization of the press and also attacking cnn, saying we should biotic them. there is violations of the hatch act. a constant orwellian nature. sarah huckaby says it doesn't matter what's true, it's true what the president says. what i have been saying is this is not a drill there. is not the thing where we move onto the core values we stand for. are we big oughts that smear muslims and say they're hateful anti-criminals? we move onto the next breaking

news? no we're not. >> there are a lot of people that say this is how it begins. i am there completely. richard haase, you wanted to make a statement about what nikki haley said. >> people august to listen closely to what she said, if china doesn't cut off the oil to north korea, we will take the oil matter into our own hands. i listen to what i hear. that suggests to me the potential now has been introduced of unilateral american military enforcement of sanctions against north korea. >> that could well be the next step. increasingly, things are getting jammed into a binary choice either living with a north korea with nuclear weapons, with all the risks of that or one way or another moving towards military option which seems to me to be missing. i do not understand it, joe, after 11 months, where is an american diplomatic proposal? why haven't we put it on the table? >> as you said, rex tillerson actually says that they're

cutting the budget. they don't need to hire things over there, there is more chaos across the globe than there has been in decades. >> whenever you think you can't be surprised. you wak up and get surprised. rex tillerson said one of the justification of the cuts for american diplomats and resources is because of all the successes that will come t. conflicts will be resolved and there will be fewer conflicts. >> tell me something, rex tillerson stupid? i thought he was james baker's friend, i thought he was condi rice and others had recommended him. is he stupid? because i never, you can go back two years on this show and i never asked that question of anybody holding a position like that, at least on this show. but is he stupid?

because anybody that's been in walk for more than a day know he is wrong. it is disastrous the state department is being gutted. we don't have ambassadors across the globe. there is nobody in south korea to talk to, foreign leaders don't know who to call when there is a crisis. is rex tillerson dumb or is he a lackey for donald trump. >> guess what? i'm running out of third options for this man. >> i think he's misconceiveing totally his job and basically taking work in one environment, corporate environment, superimposing it on a political environment. it just is not working. >> he may have been undermined by the president repeatedly. he had this vision of when he came in, what he wanted to do with the state department, when it was clear that was not going to work, he had to curry favor with the president who wasn't going to curry any switch he made. now, here we are. >> we will follow after the break, the republican party,

anybody waking up as a republican, is there any defense of what is going on in the white house at this point? >> no, any republican that doesn't realize this president does not have the intellect or the emotional ability to hand him the needs of this country is sadly mistaken. he has repeatedly, whether it's on the international front, what richard haase says should scare every american not just republicans, if there is an incident, this president intellect clul available to address the crisis? the answer is no. >> heidi, we have been focusing thus far on members of the cabinet. i was asking where cabinet members were, some people that i have great respect for. where are they right now? you could ask that question about the hill, where is paul ryan? >> can you ask that question about members of congress. >> i have known paul ryan since he was 23-years-old. i have held him in the highest disdain, when people ask me, who is the guy in congress you respected the most? i throw out steve largent, paul

ryan, on the house side of all the people i met, those were the people i respected who is this man that calls himself paul ryan now and sits in the speaker's chair? because that's not the paul ryan i know. america is in danger and guess what, a four or 5% tax cut on corporate tax rates is not worth it. >> not at this point. >> heidi, af the cast of the past 48 hours, the possibility of their constituents could be if danger. >> reporter: joe, i don't mean to sounds too harsh here, but this is where we are. we are at the finish line potentially for the grand payoff here for stand i by donald trump through all of these controversies, if you go back to, for example, charlottes victim, you can tick down the line of places where the gop leadership and members of the cabinet had that chance to come out definitively and punish this behavior. there has been no consequences.

and just like any reckless behavior, few look at the reporting we are seeing out of the white house from prominent news organizations like this "post" and the "time's" his own advisers are saying he feels emboldened because we haven't seen those consequencens and to answer your question, it is that simple that we are at the cusp of getting the big payoff here for the republican agenda, and you are not going to see anybody step out at this time and say anything. and it's been an accumulation like you said and now the drum beat is just faster with all of these actions be i the president which bring into question whether he does have the mental capacity to be making these decision about north korea and to what extent the american public can trust when he says,

don't worry about it. we have this under control. >> i said this when bush was president, five years from now, conservatives would criticize george w. bush for big spending. i said he has to get out of office, five years from now, amof these people will be telling us how they knew donald trump had pre dementia and they knew he wasn't stable and they will all be writing the book, what i tried to do. i tried to speak truth to power. and this is how i quietly did it and subtly did it. no, too late there. is your big payoff on tax cuts. enjoy it. we're also on the cusp of a crisis with north korea. the most dangerous nuclear crisis we've had since early 1960s, since most of you have been alive. because i wasn't even alive. i'm like as old as the hills, i wasn't alive during the cuban missile crisis. these are serious, deadly serious times and a 2 or 3% cut

on corporate tax rates. paul ryan, mitch mcconnell, all of my republican brothers and sisters not worth it. >> we will have much more on all of this ahead. we barely have just begun. brian haase said the president's retweets of anti-muslim videos is not a one-day story. also ahead, president trump said yesterday the republican tax plan would cost am fortune, but fact checkers are weighing in on that claim. many lies. plus, there are new reports that jared kushner met with special counsel robert mueller earlier this month. what we are learning this morning about their conversation. we are back? just a moment. as you can clearly see, the updates you made to your plan strengthened your retirement score. so, that goal you've been saving for, you can do it. we can do this? we can do this. at fidelity, our online planning tools are clear and straightforward so you can plan for retirement

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. >> in response to those anti-muslim videos reposted yesterday by the president, british prime minister teresa pay issued a stern and formal rebuke, speaking of the

political party, trump retweeted, may said if a statement britain first seeks to divide communities which pedal lives and stoke tensions, the causes anxiety to law abiding people. british people reject rhetoric of the far right, which is the antithesis of the values that this country represents, decency, tolerance and respect. it is wrong for the president to have done this, last night trump tweeted a response intended for may. teresa may, don't focus on me, focus on disruptive radicalism within the united kingdom w. redoing just fine. he later reposted the tweet because it was directedt the a person who was not the prime minister. the netherlands embassy in the united states also responded to the president's retweet, reporting to show a muslim migrant beating up a dutch boy,

tweeting to the president, facts do matter, the perpetrator of the violent act in this video was born and raised in the leather hands, he completed his sentence under dutch law t. white house defended the president's words, despite the facts. >> whether it's a real video the threat is real and that is what the president is talking about, that's what the president is focused on, is deeming with those real threats. those are real no matter how you look at it. >> so what about the fact video? >> i'm not talking about the fake video, the threat is real. that's what the president is talking about. >> absolutely stunning. >> what she is saying is don't believe the facts, believe what the president tells you effectively the threat is real t. video might not be real, that's not the point. he's making a larger point about some perceived threat that he sees. the fact that these retweets even a kurt kurd is bad enough.

but to have the official spokesperson for the white house to come out and knowing the fact that they knew about them, after the fact that they were white supremacists and she was thanked by the white supreme cyst group. they stood their ground and in fact dug in even deeper on the white supreme cyst video and the support for it. >> we seen sarah huckaby sanders do this before. there is particularly, how she can stand there and say, don't focus on what the president did. it's this content. this is spin at a whole new level. >> it's like she went to the baghdad bob school of communications on this one, she graduated like top of her class. >> it just shows how sort of desperate these strafrs to defend the president and the lengths that they'll go to, one of the things they will have to grapple with is that these tweets i think you guys were talking about how tweets have consequences thoorks less have real consequences, not just in terms of relationships with the

uk but also in court. because you have seen the president's travel ban will be back up and the plaintiffs in these cases will pointed to these tweets, wee seen the courts are willing to take his tweets as words. >> mika, he's undercut himself, carol is absolutely right. this will stop his muslim ban few want to calm eight muslim ban or a travel ban the courts are going to see this and he will undercut himself with these cour courts. >> you are in there, we have a situation where the president is surrounded by people who are defending conspiracy theories, videos, how do they do this? what are we seeing? are we seeing something changing in terms of our democracy?

>> it's a defense at all costs an a denial of the facts and to say whether this is real or not doesn't matter is completely outrageous. because the whole pint of these videos the reason they are suppliesed and misrepresented is they are intended to use lives to bring hate. the people that produce them know they are taken out of context and anybody with a google, with a mousepad can go on the internet can find they are sliced and diced and they are also the, including the president of the united states, so for these spokes people who stands up there day after day to also be unable go on the internet and find the same type of information is just again another lie. so brian clause, give us some

examples. give us historical perspective. put meat on the bones here of what this reminds you of. give us a couple examples of past regimes that would say, because we hear just colonelly, this is orwellian, where you have somebody saying, well, area, it doesn't matter whether it's true or false, it's a bicker point involved. >> yeah, you have regimes that fire prosecutors investigating them. it sounds fanliar for our situations many african despots and kim jong-un is oob surd and has a cult personality effect. the bigger picture i want to focus on in london, british soldiers fornld the relationship defeating fascism in normandy.

the prime minister said to the white house, it's wrong to promote neofascism. that's the state of affairs we are in right now. it is damaging our gravitas and respectability. thankfully, i have lived in london for six years, i am apologizing to people. it is denigrating our country. people want to know, have we lost our minds? if there is no response to this how am i supposed to say i haven't? >> ripped. you have the president of the united states defending fascism in charlottesville. now you have the president of the united states defending neofascism in great britain retweeting it's a whole meaning. you asked brian, what does this reminds you of?

it's george w. bush after 9:11. he said, yes, all muslims don't bear collective responsibility. imagine those videos were 100% accurate all muslims should be seen through this lens is exactly the opposite of what we want to do. there is almost a billion muslims in the world, why does the united states want to create a cultural war. we want to say, there are guided individuals. we cannot take on all individuals in britain and the united states and anywhere else. >> those misguided people include david duke works retweeted donald trump yesterday in his back and forth with the videos and donald trump are go after teresa may, but will not say a word against david duke and again, it brings us back to what is his moral compass? when it comes to his lack of

talking about neo-nazis in our countries. >> i'm not sure what more people inside the white house need to understand that we are in a greater bay situation. i've always said things too early but i've never been wrong. >> amen, sister. >> to sui tan's points, just after charlottesville, these people who believe that they were lifted up by donald trump are now like coming out of the wood work. you had this jada frans, saying god bless you, donald trump. they are emboldened by it. they get a signal from the most powerful man in the world what they are doing is the right path. they believe they have been validated by donald trump. >> le supports nazis in charlottesville, nazis in britain. he attacks our most important allie, he does it all, again to show you discorrected she from

reality. he does it to offend two-thirds of americans. these actions offend two-thirds of americans. brian, one of the things you can them your friends in great britain is that two-thirds of americans are deeply offended by this man's actions. there is a reason there is the latest polling record. there is the reason he will have the lowest approval ratings for a second year president. that's the most disturbing thing is donald trump is playing to steve bannon's one-third. it's a losing proposition, for some reason, he doesn't know it. but he is, brian, i certainly hope people in britain and across the world know, he is in a distinct minority in america. >> i think that many people know those stats, you know, a lot of brits don't have experience with americans, they see the tweets. it's the headline in every single major newspaper here

today. the representation of the united states is donald trump whether we like it or not globally. that's where we need to take stock of how much damage he is dock. in june we saw that 57% loss of confidence from obama to trump in a puig research survey, that was before all these things. >> two-thirds of the country may feel the president is failing them. but republicans and members of the cabinet, you are failing the entire country. brian clause, thank you very much. coming up, we are following the latest on the firing of nbc news' matt lauer, as more women come forward with new accusations. "morning joe." will be right back.

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welcome back. it's 42 past the hour. more women have come forward with allegations of sexual% conduct against matt lauer since the stunning news of his firing yesterday morning t. allegations, some of which are laid out in shocking detail in reports from "variety" magazine and the "new york times" suggest a pattern of inappropriate sexual behavior in the work place dating back years. "variety's" reporting is based on a two-month investigation with dozens of interviews with current and former staff.

the magazine says the stories of three women have been corroborated by friends or colleagues who say they were told of the alleged incidents at the time. one allegation claims lauer once gave a female colleague a sex toy, which included an exclusive note about how he wanted to ice it on her, which quote left her mortified. on another day the magazine writes lauer summoned a different female employee to his office and exposed himself. "variety" writes, quote. after the employee declined to do anything, visibly shaken, he reprimanded her for not engaging in a sexual act. nbc has confirmed two more accusers have come forward since the news of lauer's firing and there is this from the "new york times," quote, one complaint came from a former employee who said lauer had summoned her to his office in 2001, locked the door and sexually assaulted her

she told the "time's" she passed out and had to be taken to a nurse. she said she felt helpless because she didn't want to lose her job and she didn't report the encounter at the time because she felt shamed. she has asked to remain anonymous. several women told "variety" they complained to executives at the network about lauer's behavior. but the magazine writes it quote fell on deaf ears. nbc news released the following statement, quote, we can say unequivocally that prior to monday night current nbc news management was never made aware of any complaints about matt lauer's conduct. so far, there has been no response from lauer. so i think this is where we're at in terms of just how bad culture can be in an organization when something like this is happening and nobody really understands the gravity of it. apartmently on monday night, it

was unequiff cam. the evidence that was brought to nbc management and they acted completely immediately because what they saw was too clear. >> they have to see a woman come into hr. this woman is really courageous doing what she does. >> yeah. >> to bring her story forward to the hr department. not the media but to go through that channel had to be scary as all heck and, in part, probably led to such quick action. i i know she did come in with her attorney. but that courage sends a signal and like we've seen in case over case, one person comes forward and we see others that follow. >> we will watch the reporting bear out on this the biggest is culture. we all have to they that when this story broke, to be very honest, i was not shocked and so

what does that mean? does that mean i should have said something? i don't know matt lauer. i never work with him. but i've always heard stories about him kind of fooling around or whatever. everyone has, i even remember you coming from some event where it was the joke of the day. >> by the way, this tells you, carol lee, how much culture has changed that i went to some i never been to one, it's only what i went to some friars club event five or six years ago where they were roasting matt lauer and there were like 500 -- >> it's a narrative. >> there were a thousand people in the audience like the most powerful people in media and everybody that came up were making fun of matt lauer, not pushing himself on people. but the whole theme was he does the show and then he has sex

with people, with employees. so was this whispered behind closed doors? no, it was shouted from the mountaintops and everybody laughed about it, which tells you what culture used to be. it's very interesting that nbc quote as a reporter i know you saw it. current, exactly, current nbc management. >> yes. look. you know who else was expected to laugh at those jokes? women. >> right. >> so that is the culture that we have been operating in for some time. we're expected to laugh at those sorts of jokes, too, and brush it off. i know there are women now friends of mine who are thinking about, oh, that was, oh, that was inappropriate. everyone a kind of going through their minds. >> exactly. >> at things they've tolerated because it's supposed to be just what happened. >> here's the thing, i think the convention was consensual sex. well, consensual sex is not against the law, but 99 out of

100 times it's about idea. exactly, so what you have is a culture where women and men are lacking about the jokes. maybe some women are thinking it's really funny. maybe they think it's okay. it's not plaque and white here, where only men think that harassing women is okay. some women participate in sexual misconduct which gets them ahead, other women are left out. i have been in situations like that before. >> let's not forget. when gretchen karlsson came forward a year-and-a-half ago, there were women worn doubting here, who went against her. that's how quickly things have changed here. >> we which don't want to do either. >> i'm saying, it went back and forth. she was really one of the first people to come out in this kind of environment. >> right. >> and her treatment at fox was atrocious. >> so what have we learned? what we learned from this. we will be talking more about this but those jokes weren't

funny, like there are conversations and there are lines, we are in a new place at work where we can't even allow something to be accepted in the form of a joke, because it is not funny, because it is telling other people in the room that it's okay what's happening and that maybe they can't have a voice. i didn't realize this. >> i remember sitting there, like, wait, this is? wait, what's going on? i actually left early, but i've got to say, because, and i remember, i came back and it was like shocked by what i had just seen and i'm not shocked by much, but it's the same thing when you talk about the culture. i know we brought this up before when peter jennings died. he was kind of joking about, this is what peter jennings did. >> right. >> for years. it was all on tv like in his

obit, it just tells you, his glossy obit. >> it's okay. >> the past culture, what it was like. >> i think there was a big leap from those jokes that were being made, maybe i wasn't there i didn'tthere. i didn't hear them. acti about fooling around and to the horrific events. >> the connection is there. >> the details of the reports are so appalling and so disgusting and so disappointing to a person we knew professionally sitting on a set that i can't believe what i'm hearing or reading. maybe i should. >> a button where you can lock people in your room and a woman passing out? it reminded me of the story on the charlie rose thing. again, these are people we've all known and liked. but you read a story about charlie rose and a young woman, i don't remember the exact specifics but a woman weeping

while he was holding -- yeah, and you just sit there, and like you said, consensual is one thing, but so much of this is not. >> consensual may exist, but it's not funny. >> this is why if you look in the finew york times, we're getting an education on why the women didn't come forward. it's really troubling when you talk about consensual versus assault, that a woman who was clearly assaulted did not come forward because he was in part blaming herself for not having stopped it. she was ashamed. that's a thread we see in all the cases including in the weinstein case when they talk to women who blame themselves and after the fact were literally in shock and questioning what their role in this was, and that's a big part of the culture, because

up until this cultural inflection point, so many times when women did come forward, they were blamed. it was their character which was assassinated and impugned. people tore apart their record on their boyfriends, how they dressed. and that is why so many of these women didn't come forward. >> i applaud nbc for acting swiftly. i think they're trying to be as transparent as possible. we all need to step up. nothing is funny anymore. we work together. and we have to protect each other, and it's kind of incredible, the cascade of stories that is coming down about this, about matt. >> it's worth underlining what susan said. the courage of the first person to kick down the door, because you saw in the new york times piece two more people at nbc came forward after the news broke because they felt it was now okay to step up and take on

arguably the most powerful person in this building. >> right. we need to set up a dynamic where this does not happen. we're going to talk more about the seismic shift in workplace culture ahead. also coming up in just the past few days, president trump has circulated anti-muslim videos, clung to conspiracy theories, and picked a fight with written's prime minister. now a new report says white house officials expect things to get even more outrageous. >> good. >> next on "morning joe." keyboard clacking ]

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welcome back to "morning joe." i tweeted about this last night. alex, can you show me a picture of the control room in there? we want to thank everybody. we had our highest ratings ever last month. can you believe this willie with armed forces radio? how many? >> 46 million. >> i see about 12 people. >> anyway, 46 million. we want to thank you guys because alex -- >> sorry j just ten.

>> the team you put together is extraordinary, and willie, mika, and i know that -- >> we don't make it easy. >> we don't make it easy, and we also know it's not us that's maki making this happen. it's you guys working through the night, long hours, extraordinary. thank you guys so much for all you do, and we have a massive staff. there are about three people that aren't in that picture. thank you guys so much. what's coming up? >> coming up, why it can only get worse from here. axios says white house officials the president to be more outrageous. he feels emboldened. the potential passage of tax reform and a win for roy moore in alabama might only feed his sense that he is on the right path. we'll break that down next on "morning joe."

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we've already made tremendous progress, far greater than i would have thought. i will tell you this in a nonbragging way. there has never been a ten month president who has accomplished what we've accomplished. that i can tell you. in fact, they're going to say that trump is the opposite of an exaggera exaggerator. >> welcome back to "morning joe." thursday, november 30th. with us we have mike barnicle. >> come on. >> republican strategist and political commentator susan d delpersio. also przybyla.

and also robert costa. good to have you all. >> bob, we want a piece written by your partners from the washington post. it's titled "trump gears past guardrails feeling impervious to what he causes". they wrote he disseminated anti-muslim videos. again, and again trump veered far past the guardrails of presidential behavior. but despite the now routine condemnation, the president is acting emboldened as if he were impervious to the uproar he causes. if there are consequences for his actions, trump doesn't feel the burden personally.

the president is on the cusp of his first major legislative achievement. trump himself remains the highest profile man accused of sexual improprieties to keep his job with no repercussions. trump has internalized the belief he can largely operate with impunity. his political base cheers him on. fellow republican leaders largely stand by him. his staff scrambles to explain away his behavior and the white house disciplinary chief of staff john f. kelly has said it's not his job to control the president. then please leave. seriously, all of you please leave. because there's no point to you. >> bob, the daily news talked about him being mentally unfit. you have -- saying earlier today

through the first year probably have had better relationship with the president because he often calls you guys when he has information he wants to get out. maggie asked yesterday morning, or suggested that something was going on. he seemed to be more unmoored than usual, and something is happening with this man. we've been hearing it from inside the white house for quite some time. what can you tell us? any clues on what's going on, or what's the white house reaction? what are you hearing? >> inside the white house based on my reporting there's a visceral confidence by the president when it comes to all these different actions. he doesn't feel like he has to pay a political cost for his behavior. when i asked around about the videos yesterday, they said he got a rebuke from prime minister may in england. yet, he didn't get a rebuke from most republicans on capitol hill. they continued to move forward on their tax proposals.

because of this dynamic, he feels like he can continue to live in this isolated eco chamber inside of the white house where he can direct social media in a different direction that shatters the norms of american politics. >> what about the people around him? what about the general kellys? what about the general mattiss? people who have served their country for their entire life? they see him promoting fascist vide videos,ing with deeply racist with muslims across the globe, making racist statements about hispanics. lying, questioning the first amendment. for men and women who have dedicated their entire life to protecting and defending the constitution of the united states, how do they keep working there? how do they square this? >> they're picking their spots. and that's what -- >> what spots are they picking? >> the one spot people close to general mattis and kelly say

they want to at least have some semblance of control over is his reaction to north korea and kim jong-un, and everything else political they're trying to put it on a shelf. they know they can't control it, and two, the president just does not want to listen, but they hope when it comes to the most serious national security matters he's going to take their advice. >> yeah. that's kind of frightening. this president, i believe, called kim jong-un a sick puppy? what was the words he used? i'm not sure they have a lot of control over him. >> they do not. >> and the impact this has internationally. >> it's very scary. as a muslim american myself, it's almost you reach a stage where you don't know what else to do, because it's generalizing 1.6 billion muslims as one thing in the meantime as america is taking a lot of business deals from saudi arabia. billions of dollars. saudi arabia is a muslim country. we need to connect the stories

in here. not every muslim is a terrorist. you have a small percentage that are, and they're problematic for muslims themselves. but when the president of the united states makes such a generalization, it has a ripple effect that's scary for everyone, and for every muslim particularly. >> mike, the past 48 hours have been particularly horrific and disturbing, and feeds into what the new york daily news said, that the president does not appear to be mentally fit for his job. you saw what he did at the navajo ceremony. you saw the fascist tweets he retweeted and then attacked the british prime minister. you saw all the other tweets that he has -- i would say spiraling out of control. he's out of control. what is the next step for people close to him? what's the next step for republicans in congress? how long do they sit back and let him behave in such an

abhorrent manner? >> and reward it. >> because he is destroying the republican party. there is going to be -- >> i think just the republic. >> -- nothing but ashes in 2018. >> it's bigger than that. we are a president of the united states who cares nothing about himself, not the country, not history, not the world, not 1.6 billion muslims. only about himself. we are on the edge of 2018. 50 years ago, 2068 was a particularly chaotic year. in 1968 16,212 young americans were killed in vietnam. an average of 320 a week. people getting knocks on their doors, telegrams telling a son their father is dead. 50 years later we at a point in our history where the president

of the united states demeans himself, the country, diminishes the presidency, surrounded apparently by no one who can say no, stop. you're wrong, and that's wrong. and that's what we need now. 50 years ago robert kennedy ran for president. one of the threads of his campaign that he used to ar tickulate, he said his campaign was a search for the national soul. that's what we need today, a search for the national soul. >> and why is the president emboldened? >> we talked about the people in the white house. he knows establishment and congressional republicans are going to stand by his side because they want a tax cut. pbs news hour reached out last night to 50 u.s. senators. and they asked what they thought about the muslim tweets. they could only get three republicans to criticize the tweets. the rest they talked to said i haven't seen them. no comment, effectively.

why not? >> you're telling me only three republicans condemned a fascist video that was a lie? >> 45 senators get back to them and three republicans, only three criticized them. this is of the pbs news hour's reporting. the question is why. what's the risk? what's the downside of doing the right thing j something that's so patently racist and so obviously wrong and easy to condemn. why? why not? >> and mika, do the republicans really think they'll get in trouble at home for condemning fascists? >> what does it matter? the question i think bob costa was asking is why are we surprised? i'll tell you why. because this is not normal. and we're not going to be put in the position where we get so used to this bizarre behavior, to this behavior that seems diabolical. >> bob, try to explain to us why only three republican senators would go on the record and

condemn fascist videos. >> because, joe, when i said why are we surprised? it's because during the course of 2015 and 2016 as a chronicled candidate trump, his rise in american politics, this is someone who forcefully pushed for a muslim ban. this is someone who saw ovations and cheers for this kind of political language. now he's president of the united states. he won a victory in the electoral college and yet, we continue to be surprised at each norm and each step he takes forward on these kind of incendiary issues. in particular with the muslims. >> we are surprised then. we are surprised now. we'll continue to be surprised, quite frankly, at the spinelessness of the republican party and the lack of dedication to this country that we are seeing in this cabinet. who surround this president and appear to be doing nothing. >> and mike, let's be really clear here. the pace is quickening.

>> and let's be really clear about something else. he has never paid a price for any element of his behavior. he's never paid a price. >> been rewarded for it. >> yes. he's president of the united states. >> the president tweets anti-muslim videos, and here is his press secretary discussing what should be an abomination. take a look. >> whether it's a real video, the threat is real, and that is what the president is talking act. that's what the president is focussed on is dealing with those real threats. and those are real no matter how you look at it. >> is it a fake video? >> i'm not talk act the nature of the video. the threat is real. that's what the president is talking about. >> really, we're really not focusing on the wrong thing. >> the president of the united states tweeted out a fascist video, and it was a false video, and -- >> we're focussed on that. >> that does matter, and that should matter to any civilized

country, anybody that has any character whatsoever. and mike and willie just talked about how the president never has paid a price for any of this. they're all scared of him. i've talked to republicans in the house, the senate, talked to republican donors. they all think he's too crazy, we're scared of him, he'll talk us. i remember the morning paul ryan endorsed him, mika and i both, we kept saying what are you doing? you have to demand -- >> you'll pay for this. >> you'll pay for this. if you don't demand something from him, he will run over you. he is a bully. we said it the morning paul ryan endorsed. and all paul ryan has been doing since along with other republicans, they've been cowering in the corner and been afraid to stand up to him in a vocal, strong, even when he tweets fascist videos.

>> i think one the fascist video relates to muslim, that's the issue. if it's maybe another group of people it would be different, but i think the fact of the matter, right now the mainstream america think muslims are bad, muslims equal terrorism, and there is a serious war happening within islam where we are trying to curtail the terrorist, stop them. that puts fuel to fire basically. it's irresponsible. >> you know better than anybody if you go country by country, 2017, who have been victims of islamic radical terrorism the most? your home country of iraq almost 10,000 people this year alone have died from terror attacks. >> it's levelled. there is a real war among muslims trying to stop this. there is a serious war. one american president endorsed and fuels such hatred of muslims, it doesn't help the good muslims and there are good muslim trying to stop the

terrorists and fundamentalists. >> heidi, i want to underline the point. only three republican senators would criticize the president of the united states posting fascist videos that actually distorted reality. only three do they really believe they will escape history? do they really believe that this will go unnoticed at the ballot box in 2018? >> they see it as more of the same. make no mistake, we did shatter a new norm yesterday in that up to this point we've been having a discussion about to what extent the president is fanning cultural tensions within our own borders. what we saw yesterday was that he gave a platform now to hateful extremist groups on the far right outside of our borders. what we saw right after the

tweet was this woman, this woman who was the head of britain first, taking to the air waves and promoting herself. so you ask the people of britain how deeply accord this hits because this is the same group whose name was shouted by the person who murdered who slaughtered in broad daylight, joe cox, a member of british parliament there screaming bitten fir britain first. that's why you're seeing international condemnation of what this is doing to stoke cultural tensions worldwide. >> i want to say the three names of the senators who condemned the tweets. again, pbs news room called all senators. jeff flake, lindsey graham, and james langford were the three republicans who criticized. >> we're going to move back to the matt lauer story. a few moments ago savannah

guthrie wrote a statement for matt lauer who was fired from the "today" show yesterday amid accusations of sexual misconduct. the statement reads, quote, there are no words to express my sorrow and regret for the pain i have caused others by words and actions. to the people i hurt, i am truly sorry. as i'm writing this, i realize the depth of the damage and disappointment i have left behind at home and at nbc. some of what is being said about me is untrue or misargument rised but this is truth in the stories to make me feel embarrassed and ashamed. i regret it's share bid the people i cherish deeply. repairing the damage will take a lot of time and soul searching and i'm committed to beginning that effort. it is now my full-time job. the last two days have forced me to take a hard look at my own troubling flaws. it's been humbling. i am blessed to be surrounded by people i love. i thank them for their patience

and grace. that is the statement that has been put out by matt lauer amid reports coming out in various news publications of women coming forward who feel they've been harassed, some even assaulted by matt lauer, and at times at work. >> but that statement all i kept hearing was me, me, me, i, i, i. he could have said i'm ashamed and i apologized. he knows he has a lot ore build and apologize for and his family, but stop. he just needed to apologize and say he was ashamed. the statement, again, makes it about i'm deeply sorry. you want to be courageous? explain what really happens and why you're sorry and what this does to women and how it hurts and what he's really sorry for, not just what he did to embarrass his family and his workplace. >> right. i think that that's one conversation. i don't think there's any statement he could put out today

that anybody would accept. i think it would just -- >> that's why i thought it should be brief. >> yeah, but i think we're left with a bigger conversation as to how we move forward as a company. how other companies move forward, how congress moves forward. as everybody moves forward addressing allegations baring out to be true, looking at settlements, looking at human resources and how they deal with something after the fact, and i know personally i feel like i was quiet when i heard the jokes about matt or when i heard the rumors or -- and i feel like we're all part of a culture where perhaps we were desensitized almost to the enabling that was happening around us. i'm not blaming anybody. i'm not sure anybody is really completely at fault, but we have to learn from this. >> it's a pivotal moment in history. how do we take it from here is also as pivotal.

because we have been desensitized, and almost every woman has a story, and nbc and other places. and let's talk about the 20 million households who are watching the "today" show and the stories in these households and the ripple effect of these households. the conversation needs to have the is dialogue. we're missing the dialogue. we're missing the end of conversation. right now is only about the rich and famous. we need to go deeper. how does a woman feel? the shame, the fear, we need to go deeper in understanding it and we need to go deeper in understanding the man's process, the locker room conversation. steve bannon interview with charlie rose a few months ago, he was talking about the access hollywood tape with president trump. he said people don't care. we need to talk about the locker room conversation and what people care and don't care about. >> that's what i'm wondering is if that was our version here at nbc of the locker room conversation where the jokes or

rumors, and i think that in a way it's condoning, and consensual sex happens, it's not against the law, but it's not funny. if it's happening on a wide level and so many people know it and kind of accept it because it's consensual and not against the law, but don't address, perhaps, the fact that it's not funny or that it shouldn't be happening at work, or that perhaps this could lead to enabling of more bad behavior, this seemed like something everyone really felt they knew. i mean, there's not a person, i think, who worked in and around the sphere of matt lauer who had not heard these things. had you? >> wait, wait, i have to correct you there. we had heard -- everybody had heard -- never heard about a lock on the door. nobody that i know of ever heard of a lock on the door. nobody heard of him pushing himself on women. there was a belief that matt

lauer did surround -- we thought, you know, we all heard around here, in fact, even yesterday before the variety story came out, people around here were saying there are 14 women and they're all stars and we're going to hear about that because that's what you heard about matt lauer is he was with powerful women and women on the "today" show. >> i remember it being kind of like funny. >> but you have to be careful when you say that we knew about this stuff. no. and i will tell you, by the way, everybody is like why do you not say anything before? guess what. i've heard some pretty horrific stories about president trump. why don't i talk about it on the air? because i don't want to be sued. >> no. i want to say -- >> and other people don't either. >> i want to say, for example, i had no idea at all about the person who sat on this set and allegations against mark halperin. i had no clue. i really had not heard. and i remember reading a tweet from someone at abc saying it

was an open secret. why not say something, and at this point when you hear that something is an open secret and it doesn't have to be an illegal open secret, but a potential pattern, a problem, why is that funny. >> because it comes down -- let's have real conversation. because of culture. i brought up peter jennings. guess what? mark halperin worked under peter jennings. guess what. there was apparently back then at abc, there was a different culture. >> oh, there was. >> and by the way, you can go through news -- >> i'm talking about myself. i feel like i'm a part of this. i accepted a lot of this. >> we all need to have control. we all need to say where do i play a role in it whether a woman or man? did i misbehavior? we need to have this cultural conversation. >> a year ago or more when you

heard those jokes women didn't want to necessarily not say oh, that's inappropriate, because, again, that becomes a stigma against you. >> right. >> one of -- we need to be clear in what we say. there is a difference between philandering and being a predator. the stories we all heard was that matt was a philanderer. i never heard a story that he was a predator. the stories that everybody heard about charlie rose was he was a philanderer. they would laugh about it. he's a dog. we never heard the stories, the offensive deeply offensive stories that he would hold women that worked for him and they would be weeping. we need to have this conversation. okay? there's also power dynamics. if you're a 59-year-old man and you're preying on 23-year-old

women who are working for you, that by definition is not consensual. so these are the discussions we need to have. it's one thing if matt lauer is with somebody else that he works with on the "today" show. it's another thing if he has a system of luring in and trapping women in their early 20s when he's the most powerful man at nbc. >> it doesn't have to be in your early 20s. what happens if you have a job and a predator could be someone who wants the allegation? >> i'm not saying that. i'm saying by definition. by definition, if you're the most powerful person at nbc and you're preying on women in your younger 20s, by definition -- >> i agree with you. >> it can be other people too. >> i think you're both right. it's an issue of power, and what

is your responsibility as a man of power toward others, and there's an issue of culture, and how our culture has enabled such things and allowed and laughed about such things and what are the messages to our kids right now? i think our kids are at stake. this is the dialogue we need to have. >> well, thank you bill clinton for starting it. >> we're all talking about, i think sort of the same thing. the cultural root of this. one of the more damaging an eternally dangerous elements of this, and it involves a young woman that we know that i had a conversation with about three or four years ago after a particularly brutal episode that involved her and a man, and i was talking to her about it. she came to me, because i guess i look like her father or something like that. >> i think grandfather, but go ahead. >> grandfather, whatever. and she said something that really struck me as she described it. and she finished the description, and she said to me, what do you think i did wrong?

she didn't do anything wrong. but that's what more women than not end up saying. what did i do? was it something i wore? was it something i said? you didn't do anything wrong. it's the guy. it's the culture. it's the permissiveness. the green light that he thinks he has. >> but the answer to your question of why didn't any of those people in the abc days say anything lies within every story we've seen written, i wasn't going to be the person to take this person on, and i knew if i told a manager, they'll say you don't want to go there. don't mess with this person who wields all the power. what we hope after these couple of months, we come out the other side, not only do men know they can't get away with behaving this way, but women are fully supported. if they want to take on that person at the top of the mountain, they'll have support of the company and the director supervisor and the support of

the male colleagues to report it out. >> to mike's point, and what makes this complicated and hard to deal with, is i agree with everything you said. let's not forget there are women out there who do do things that are inappropriate and sometimes they're looking to get ahead in a certain way. that's what makes this conversation even more impossible. >> that's what makes this conversation honest. that's what we do here. i don't want to talk about this if we're not going to have an honest conversation. i appreciate you saying that. because i've confronted that where i've literally seen competition that i cannot compete with because it's a different game. now, having said that -- >> talk about that specifically without giving specifics. you're saying women that have been involved with managers and get ahead because of out? >> yes, and it's culture. and within all that, it's why i brought up why we can't think that it's funny to make fun of philandering or whatever is

happening. because it leads to more. and it always has the potential to lead to more. and it is a dynamic where, of course what she's wearing or what she did did not conserve an assault or whatever it is. but it's part of the conversation. office conduct. >> there is a black and white story, predator and victim, and there is a gray story, and we, and the discussion is in the gray story. because sometimes we have been complacent in allowing a culture that does this to woman. objectify women and sexualize them. that's what the gray story is because that's the cultural message. the black and white, a predator and victim is very clear to me. that's very clear. >> it's shaming as a woman as i say this woman got ahead or i'm aware of this behavior. all of a sudden i'm shallow like there's something inappropriate about me even calling it out. again, it is an honest conversation. >> and it's tough to have, but

you think this network wants to go through this again? no. how do we move forward? every single one of us in some way, shape, or form were touched by the rumors or concerns, and we didn't see them. i didn't -- i guess i've been in network news for so long and i've seen so much and been through my own situations that were challenging that i just missed it. that's terrible. and so i feel this is a valuable conversation but a hard one to have. heidi? >> i think based on what i'm seeing here on capitol hill, all of this everything you're talking act has merit, but i'm seeing this also manifested in the debate here on capitol hill, mika, where i wrote a story the other day about how members now behind closed doors are starting to get nervous because yes, they realize they have a problem, that the culture here needs to

change. but at the same time in that gray area they are concerned about there being a rush to making judgment in terms of what kind of policy changes need to be made here, because they want to protect. they want to actually protect the victims. so, for example, and this is a debate within the democratic party. do you really want to require that these names of the offices where these incidents took place are identified? because this is a small environment. it's easy if you identify the offices to then be able to identify who the victim is. but secondly, we also had a very disturbing case here yesterday where there was a woman who was ready to go public with some accusations against a sitting member of congress and then at the last minute bailed. and we in the media started looking into it. it was associated with a known conspiracy theorist and so there is a concern here about this

also becoming a barrelling freight train where you have accusations made against people who -- that may not be credible, and then because of the atmosphere that we're in, you have kind of a rule by mob atmosphere about the guilt of anybody who's named by one of these accusers whether it has merit or not. >> well, and mika, it's -- there have been some pretty remarkable editorials. a lot of which you, some of these you've retweeted about women warning about the weaponization of this. >> right. >> the political weaponization of this. and also one that you retweeted a couple days ago where due process is thrown out, and this op ed writer said i believe in due process more than mob rule. and that is one of the dangers here that if you don't think steve bannon is trying to

weaponize this, if you don't think extremists on the left are going to try to weaponize this, because, boom, it's immediate. >> yes. and but companies have to do the right thing by their employees. and that in itself sometimes has its own version of due process when something is unequivocal. >> can we step back for half a second and say that you're right, this is a defining moment. and the culture is going to change. the culture is going to change in news rooms. the culture is going to change in hollywood. the culture is going to change on wall street. i think the culture is going to change in a lot of places, because it's been immediate. >> i hope so. i really do hope so. because we're still missing a larger dialogue in a conversation. >> the dialogue is it's very easy and comfortable to have like you said black and white.

predator, victim. but i think of someone in the guardian where a column said but sex is rarely black and white. it's usually shades of gray. it's easy for us to identify the black and white situations. the predator and the victim. but until we start having what you've talked about from the first time we met you, the conversation about the million shades of gray in the middle, we won't have a real conversation. it's just like people saying i want a real conversation about race. and the second you have a real conversation about race, you're called a racist. >> yeah. >> for me, it's a wholistic issue. it's related to representation in the boardroom, in decision making and getting paid equal. this is all a wholistic issue and the images we're portraying of women in media and fashion. it's all interconnected. that's the conversation we need to have. >> we'll try and have it here.

we'll wrap it for right now because alex is screaming at the top of his lungs. still ahead on "morning joe," russia rejects the call from the u.s. to cut ties with north korea after the latest missile launch. nbc's bill neely joins us from seoul as moscow accuses the u.s. of provoking pyongyang. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. bread...breadstick? a matchstick! a lamppost! coin slot! no? uhhh... 10 seconds. a stick! a walking stick! eiffel tower, mount kilimanjaro! (ding) time! sorry, it's a tandem bicycle. what? what?! as long as sloths are slow, you can count on geico saving folks money. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. bp is taking safety glasses to a whole new level. using augmented reality so engineers in the field can share data and get expert backup in the blink of an eye. because safety is never being satisfied

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president trump is speaking out this morning on the crisis with north korea tweeting the chinese envoy who returned from north korea seems to have had little impact on rocket man. hard to believe his aem and the military put up with living in such horrible conditions. >> let's go to bill neely. bill, good morning. >> reporter: good morning. these missile launches seem to be following a familiar pattern. first there's the launch. then the emergency meeting of

the u.n. security council. there's talk of new sanctions and then a war of words seems to erupt. that's what's happening here. kim jong-un is reveling in the success of his latest launch, but he's facing new threats of complete oil embargo on his country, of war, and a new taunt from president trump. new images of kim jong-un with the missile he says can reach anywhere in the u.s. after congratulating his military, he called this launch a breakthrough. u.s. officials tell nbc news it was a significant advance. the test powerful enough to trigger an emergency meeting of the u.n. security council. and this stern warning from the u.s. >> and if war comes, make no mistake, the north korean regime will be utterly destroyed.

>> north korean state television claimed this latest launch completes north korea's rocket system. u.s. officials say this was an entirely new kind of north korean missile flying higher and for longer than any other. its altitude ten times higher than the international space station means all the united states is theoretically within range. >> the danger for the u.s. is greater today than before the launch. every time he tests, he moves the goal posts further toward us. >> reporter: president trump escalating his war of words with kim jong-un with a new insult. >> little rocketman. he's a sick puppy. >> reporter: president trump is now urging china's president xi to caught off north korea's oil supply saying if he won't do it, the u.s. will. tweeting this situation will be handled.

this launch fueling new fears of kim jong-un's next step. and the main fear is that that next step may be a 7th nuclear test. this time in the open over the pacific ocean. his foreign minister has threatened as well. you mentioned president trump tweeted in the last half hour saying russia and china have condemned the launch. well, that's true, but russia has also condemned this morning the united states. the russian foreign minister saying the u.s. is deliberately provoking north korea to take some tough steps. the u.s. says lavrov should say openly if the provocative actions are aimed at destroying north korea. russia not only borders north korea. it used to be a north korean ally. so lavrov not so much defending pyongyang as taking every opportunity to take a swipe at

washington. >> bill neely, thank you so much. still ahead on "morning joe." congressman joining us after announcing his plan to retire at the end of his current term. does he plan to challenge president trump in 2020? "morning joe" is coming right back. ( ♪ ) ♪ one is the only number ♪ that you'll ever need ♪ staying ahead isn't about waiting for a chance. ♪ because one is... it's about the one bold choice you make that moves you forward. ♪ ...that you ever need the one and only cadillac escalade. come in for our season's best offers and drive out with the perfect 2017 cadillac escalade for you. get this low mileage lease from around $899 per month. ( ♪ ) discover card. from around i justis this for real?match, yep. we match all the cash back new cardmembers earn at the end of their first year, automatically. whoo! i got my money! hard to contain yourself, isn't it? uh huh!

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we just reported on a new tweet this morning from president trump about north korea. his taunting of a nuclear arm despot led our next guest to dig into a question growing louder over recent weeksment on box.com ezra klein writes in a case entitled the case for normalizing impeachment. quote, there are plenty of people who should not be president of a nuclear higher

power. trump is one of them. this is a truth known by his staff, known by republicans in congress and known by most of the country. that so few feel able to suggest even doing the obvious thing and replacing him with another republican who is better suited to the single most important job in the world is bizarre. we have grown too afraid of the consequences of impeachment and too come play september about the consequences of leaving an unfit president in office. >> let's bring in ezra klein. ezra, that's a very good summary of the first two hours of our show this morning. >> thank you for setting me up. >> basically asking the question, if now is not the time for people to step in, in the middle of a nuclear crisis, the "new york daily news" and several others saying is mentally unfit to be president of the united states, when is? >> this is what led me to begin thinking about this piece. i imagine historians 25 years from now in the aftermath of a

calamitous trump presidency, they'll look back and look back on what he was saying, look back on what he was tweeting, on what we were saying about him in realtime. senator corker saying he will create world were iii. they're going to say what were you doing? you knew everything you needed to know. this guy was calling him little rocket man, short and fat, tweeting these ridiculous provocations that were not even his own administration's policy at arguably the singularly most irrational and dangerous regime in the world, why did you let this go on? we'll go on and say, well, impeachment seemed like a big deal? when you begin to look at it -- this is where my mind changed, i anyo initially thought impeachment was too profound to look at. when you look at it, it begins to look absurd. >> mike barnicle? >> ezra, prior toward any action

toward impeachment, do you wonder as some of us do, why this particular president surrounded by so many people at an upper level who have devoted their lives to the country, to the service of the country, talking about generals mattis and kelly and mcmaster why they have not stood up, one, as an individual or perhaps as a group to say enough is enough, we're out of here unless you change, and do it public think. but nobody has said anything. so the president now seems, even before talk of impeachment seems to be operating every day with no boundaries whatsoever. >> my sense of reporting on the white house is that they all believe that, if they leave, nothing will change except they will be replaced with people who are not as good at controlling donald trump. they feel a sense of duty. a number of them in their own sword of weird ways begun to rebuke him public lip. there was the strange press conference that kelly gave who said i don't respond to the president's tweets. that's not the policy we're

setting. we're setting the policy, telling the president what he needs to know. organizational dynamics are complex. the way people slowly begin to rationalize terrible actions, we've seen quite a few disasters in history earned up that way. at some point even if the people who are hand picked to be around him are not going to abandon him, there is the rest of us. there's congress, voters, a country. and what public policies and how we think about it and how we talk about it, it actually matters. that's why i called this argument the case for normalizing impeachment. i think it's something we need to talk about, whether it's okay to impeach a president just for not being somebody who should be president which traditionally isn't the way we think about it. we don't have a language for saying, we've hired the wrong person for a job. in every other business, when you hire the wrong person for a job, you think about firing him.

the idea where you don't when it's the most important job of the world, i keep coming back to the language, it's absurd. >> impeachment is about as serious as it gets. andrew johnson and bill clinton the only who presidents impeached in the house, both later acquitted. in the senate you have to have a charge to impeach the president. what would be the specific charge against president trump? >> there have been a number of impeachment proceedings, including against judge pickering, with a huge range of charges, i'll forget the exact language, charges simply of dishonoring the office. pickering himself and i think this is an interesting example, i talked about it in the piece. he was removed because he was mentally unfit for the bench. he was ranting at people, he was an alcoholic, might have been suffering from early stage dementia. we looked at that -- >> how do you prove that stuff, ezra? it's one thing to say the guy is crazy. how do you peach it?

>> impeachment is a political remedy. there's no prove it. you need a majority of the house and two-thirds majority of the senate. a decision needs to be made. this is not a case of reasonable doubt. there's not some standard of evidence. high crimes and misdemeanors is never defined in the constitution. it's something we have to make a decision on politically. this is something somebody does outside. >> you make a decision, to see what you see and act on it and do the right thing. ezra klein, thank you so much. we'll be reading your piece on vox.com. up next, why republicans on capitol hill continue to stand by the president as he dives deeper into conspiracies and dangerous falsehoods, lies and don't say we didn't warn you. >> 29 days after donald trump was declared the presumptive republican nominee, he has finally secured the vote of the party's top member in congress, paul, he's not going to do anything for you because you did this.

he's not going to pay you back. it's pathetic. he sold out. i'm sorry. he did have a choice and he made one that was weak. ♪ i feel like fire ( ♪ ) the 2018 cadillac xt5. ♪ worship me beauty, greater than the sum of its parts. come in for our season's best offers and drive out with the perfect 2018 cadillac xt5. get a low-mileage lease on this cadillac xt5 from around $379 per month. you can do it. we can do this. at fidelity, our online planning tools are clear and straightforward so you can plan for retirement while saving for the things you want to do today. -whoo! while saving for the things your privacy makes you myt number 1 place to go number 2.

i love you, but sometimes you stink. febreze air effects doesn't just mask, it cleans away odors. because the things you love the most can stink. and try febreze small spaces to clean away odors for up to 30 days. breathe happy with febreze. was supposed to be a wake reup call for our government?sh people all across the country lost their savings, their pensions and their jobs. i'm tom steyer and it turned out that the system that had benefited people like me who are well off, was, in fact, stacked against everyone else. it's why i left my investment firm and resolved to use my savings for the public good. but here we are nine years later and this president and the republican congress are making a bad situation even worse. they won't tell you that their so called "tax reform" plan is really for the wealthy and big corporations, while hurting the middle class. it blows up the deficit

and that means fewer investments in education, health care and job creation. it's up to all of us to stand up to this president. not just for impeachable offenses, but also to demand a country where everyone has a real chance to succeed. join us. your voice matters. i'm the one clocking in when you're clocking out. sensing and automatically adjusting to your every move. does your bed do that? i'm the new sleep number 360 smart bed.

let's meet at a sleep number store. [ click ] [ keyboard clacking ] [ clacking continues ] good questions lead to good answers. our advisors can help you find both. talk to one today and see why we're bullish on the future. yours. good morning. it's thursday, november 30th. welcome to "morning joe." with us onset we have republican vault gist and political commentator susan del percio, national political reporter for nbc news, carol lee, the president of the council on foreign relations and augt,000 of the book "a world in

disarray" richard haass. white house reporter for "usa today" heidi przybilla and fellow in global and comparative politics at the london school of economics, brian klaus. >> how long have we been doing this? ten and change. i think it's the first time i caught myself looking in the papers just trying to find something to cover. was it just me or was yesterday -- a bit of miami beach in manhattan. >> the news is pretty pressing this morning. a series of alarming tweets by the president yesterday sparked an international uproar. >> i guess that balloon just got popped. it's all about timing i hear. you could have looked at me like -- that whole, joe why are you so stupid and then rolled

your eyes and then done that. >> it is actually raising serious concerns about his fitness to serve at this point. >> i am quite aware of that. >> the "new york daily news" ran an editorial reading in part, this, only those completely under his spell can deny what growing numbers of americans have long suspected. the president of the united states is profoundly unstable. he is mad, he is by nihonest layman's definition mentally unwell. >> that's the "new york daily news," a newspaper that donald trump has read every day for decades. >> "new york times" reporter maggie haberman who has deep sourcing inside the white house said, quote, something is unleashed with him lately. i don't know what's causing it. i don't know how to describe it. >> and willie, obviously maggie haberman is perhaps of any mainstream reporter closer to

donald trump than anybody, maggie and bob costa at "the washington post" usually the first person he calls when he wants to get something out. she's a tough new york reporter, has been for a long time. what was so crazy about yesterday is, we sat on this set for the first two hours, and we are talking about how troubling it was. john heilemann i thought very astutely brought it up, he was walking around muttering about conspiracy theories behind closed doors at mara l-a-lagoma. then we go to twaek and we come back in the 8:00 hour and he has tweeted out white supremacist videos from the united kingdom that are fake, and the white house spokesperson -- it doesn't matter whether they're fake or not. and then, of course, after the show he tweeted out another

conspiracy theory, a cruel c conspiracy theory for a woman and her family, which we'll get to in a minute. and you go back just two or three days, we have forgotten the chaos that was going on a couple days ago. this comes in the midst of a nuclear showdown with north korea. so i'm just kind of wondering what's the cabinet waiting for? what are republicans in the house and senate waiting for? it's never going to get more deadly serious than it is now. >> he picked a fight yesterday with the prime minister of our closest ally over the videos he shared from a white supremacist from great britain. just think about that. that's the leader of the united states, president of the united states. first of all, the fact that he would retweet those videos, unverified videos from a white supremacist who retreated back

to trump, got bless you, trump, thank you for your support of our cause in white supremacy. to have theresa may rightly standing up saying we don't stand for this in our country, these are bad people. for him to come back and push back at theresa may, the prime minister of our closest ally and saying we're doing just fine over here, maybe you should worry about your own house. these tweets are not just frivolous. they have actual impact on relationships we have around the world and on policy. >> the problem, mika, is that we are not fine in this country. i said america will be strong, we will survive this, but right now at this particular moment, and we're going to get to this in a minute with richard haass, we're headed towards a nuclear showdown. most insiders say and richard says this for some time and it matches everything we've heard from inside the administration, we're closer to war on the korean peninsula than most

americans know. we heard this months ago, that we are going to have a ground war in korea. they believed that inside the white house for a very long time. yet he is completely detached from reality. we had a "new york times" and "washington post" piece saying so a couple of days ago. the question is, mika, if this is not what the 25th amendment was drafted for -- >> and what is it drafted for? >> -- i would like the cabinet members serve america, not the president, you serve america and you know it. you know you don't serve donald j. trump, scam developer, trump university proprietor, reality tv host. you don't represent him. you represent 320 million people whose lives are literally in

your hands and we are facing a showdown with a nuclear power and you have somebody inside the white house that the "new york daily news" says is mentally unfit, that people close to him say is mentally unfit, that people close to him during the campaign told me had early stages of dementia. listen, you can get mad at me if you want to. >> you can say that's not okay to say -- but it's reality. >> when are we supposed to say that? after the first nuclear missile goes? is that when it's proper to bring this up in polite society? tell me. general matmattis, when is it polite to bring this up in polite society? rex tillerson, when is this the right time to talk about a mentally unstable president in the white house and a nuclear

showdown with another unstable mad man in north korea? is it after the first nuclear missiles fly? when exactly is the right time, steve mnuchin? >> pence. >> mike pence, guess what? republicans want you to be president. the republicans in the house and the senate would love you to be president of the united states. you know why? because you're stable. and here's the thing, everybody around donald trump knows he's not stable, everybody around donald trump knows he's not stable now, everybody. and yet this continues. >> and what we'll be talking to carol lee about, what members of the cabinet should do. susan should weigh in on what the party should be doing right now. if anybody in the republican party had a spine or a brain or

a moral compass. >> can i ask richard, before we get to this -- >> i just don't want to back into the news because we have a lot of news on north korea. >> that's what i wanted to ask richard. how dangerous are things right now regarding north korea? let's set this up first and then we'll get into it. how dangerous are things? am i overstating the possibility of war with north korea? >> the short answer is no. i think the possibility of an incident between american and north korean aircraft or ships is significant. what worries me, if there were to be some kind of incident, north korea puts a radar on an american b 1 bomber, ships collide or get close to one another at sea, does anyone think these two governments given the level of vet y'all able to manage a cries snis not necessarily the bolt from the blue that either side introduces a long range missile. what worries me is something

that would escalate out of an incident that we don't have the diplomatic capacity and the relationship to control. it's one of the monday reasons -- >> our south korean -- our ambassador to south korea could take care of it, right? >> we don't have an ambassador to south korea. if something grew out of an incident, that's different. people say you can't start a war with north korea because there's south korea to worry about, japan, there's congress. if something grows out of an incident, then it allows you to by pass the question of who started because you're reacting to a situation and it becomes tactical. it becomes self-defense. as a result, that's the scenario that concerns me most, again, not the out-of-the-blue cold attack, but something that grows out of it that allows us to by pass the normal chance we'd have to make on our ability to use military force. >> with that in mind, the president was tweeting

yesterday, among other things, the conspiracy theory about joe being a murderer. released a statement concerning the president's tweet in which he attacked joe. i'll read it because i wrote it. i'll speak for joe and myself here because joe has stated that responding to president trump's tweets are a waste of his time. today the president crossed another deeply disturbing line with his attack on joe, the chief law enforcement officer of the yatunited states of america advanced a false conspiracy theory to intimidate the press and cause a chilling effect on the first amendment. joe and i are not intimidated. his bizarre behavior contravenes both the constitution and basic moral judgment. this is all we're going to say on the matter. we're going to continue to focus on more pressing issues like the nuclear conflict with north korea, and we hope the president will do the same. so we'll focus more now on north

korea. the united nations security council con veepd vened an emer meeting yesterday after the latest missile launch. ambassador nikki haley issued a dire warning. >> yesterday the north korean regime made a choice. it chose to feed its nuclear aggression, to thumb its nose at the civilized world, it chose to challenge the patience of a world united against its recklessness. we've never sought war with north korea and still today we do not seek it. if war does come, it will be because of continued acts of aggression like we witnessed yesterday. and if war comes, make no mistake the north korea regime will be utterly destroyed. the continuing development of these missile systems demands that countries further isolate the kim regime. so today we call on all nations

to cut off all ties with north korea. president trump called chinese president xi and told him we've come to the point that china must cut off the oil from north korea. that would be a pivotal step in the world's effort to stop this international pariah. china must show leadership and follow through. china can do this on its own or we can take the oil situation into our own hands. >> meanwhile president trump took time during his speech on tax reform to coin a new nickname for north korea's leader kim jong-un. >> we're going to protect our country whether it's north korea -- we're going to protect our country like never before. because this massive tax cuts will be rocket fuel -- little rocket man -- rocket fuel. he is a sick puppy.

>> sick puppy. >> you always hear that he projects, like whatever he is, he projects and accuses other people of doing. >> this is the middle of the crisis we're talking about. the president also tweeted he spoke with cheen nah's presidsh pen, something he previewed after relegating north korea as a state sponsor of terrorism. however, no new sanctions were announced yesterday. brian class in london, pick up on what richard haass was talking about. what is your greatest concern right now, what could happen here? >> there's a huge scope for miscalculation, that's how a lot of wars get started. we have two unstable people who are reckless, have nuclear weapons and who are very proun to being defensive when it comes to being their egos at play. think about the first gulf war and the invasion of kuwait

started because of a misinterpretation of diplomatic signals. try to interpret donald trump's diplomatic signals and nikki haley's diplomatic signals and which are correct to be sent from the white house. that's where the scope is for an escalation, a provocation to spiral into a conflict that kills hundreds of thousands of people and serves nobody's enter interest. >> brian, you've been talking for a long time. you wrote a book about authoritarianism on the rise. take what's happened over the past 48 hours, you can talk about what's happened over the last 11 months, do you sense a quickening of the pace of this president's autocratic tendencies? >> absolutely. i'm really worried about it. yesterday we had a classic aspect of divide and rule, demonizing and scapegoating mean norts, retweeting a britain first account related to neo-nazis and provokes a diplomatic spat with our closest

ally. also demonization of the press, not only about you, but saying we should boycott cnn. constant ethics violations, a constant orwellian nature where sarah huckabee sanders says it doesn't matter what's true, what master is what the president says. what i've been trying to say is this is not a drill, not where we move on to the next story tomorrow. this is a threat to our democracy and the core values we stand for. are we bigots and smear muslims and say they're haitful, anti christian criminals? no, we're not. people need to draw a line in the sand. if we don't draw it there, where do we draw it. >> we'll continue this conversation straight ahead after the break. how the president's troubling behavior distracts from a hugely consequential point. america is eshooing an ultimatum to china. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. directv has been rated number one in customer satisfaction

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welcome back to "morning joe." before we went to break, we heard from ambassador nikki haley who issued what sure sounded like an ultimatum to china. richard, you wanted to weigh in to that? >> i think people need to listen closely to what nikki haley said. she said if china doesn't cut off the oil to north korea, we would take the matter into our own hands. i listen to what i hear. that suggests that the potential has been introduced of unilateral military enforcement of sanctions against north korea. that could well be the next step. increasingly things are getting jammed into a binary choice between living with north korea with nuclear weapons with all the risks of that or one way or another moving towards a military option. what seems to me to be missing, i don't understand it joe, where is an american diplomatic proposal? >> the state department has been gutted as you know.

as you said, rex tillerson actually says they're cutting, they're cutting the budget over there. they don't need to hire people over there because things are getting resolved. there is more chaos across the globe than there has been in decades zbr one of the most extraordinary things -- whenever you think you can't be surprised, you wake up and get surprised again. rex tillerson said two days ago ha the justification for the cuts of american diplomats and resources was because of all the successes that were going to come, the conflicts would be resolved and there wouldn't be as much requirement for american diplomats because there would be fewer conflicts. >> tell me something. is rex tillerson stupid? he was the ceo of exxon. i thought he was james baker's friend. >> we hoped. >> condi rice and others recommended him. is he stupid? you can go back ten years on this show. i've never asked that question of anybody holding a position like that, at least on this

show, but is he stupid? anybody that's been in washington for more than a day knows he is wrong. it is disastrous that the state department is being gutted, that we don't have ambassadors across the globe, that there is nobody in south korea to talk to, that foreign leaders don't know who to call when there's a crisis. is rex tillerson dumb, or is she just a lackey for donald trump? guess what? i'm running out of third options for this man. >> i think miss conceiving totally his job and basically taking one worked in one environment, in the corporate environment, superimposing it on a political environment. it just is not working. >> he's also just been undermined by the president repeatedly. he had this vision when he came in of what he wanted to do with the state department. when that was clear that was not going to work, he had to try to curry favor with the president who wasn't going to back any switch he made. now here we are. >> really quickly, susan, republican party, anybody waking

up this morning who is a republican, is there any defense of anything that is going on in the white house at this point? >> no. any republican who doesn't realize that this president does not have the intellect or the emotional ability to handle the needs of this country is sadly mistaken. he has repeatedly, whether it's on the international front -- what richard haass says should scare every american, not just republicans. if there is an incident, is this president emotionally and intellectually available to address the crisis? the answer is no. >> heidi, we've been focusing thus far on members of the cabinet. i was asking where cabinet members were. some people that i have great respect for, where are they right now? you can ask that question about the hill. who is paul ryan? >> you can ask that same question about members of congress. >> i'm curious. i've known paul ryan since he was 23 years old. i have held paul ryan in the highest esteem. when people ask me, who is the guy in congress you respected

the most? i'd throw out steve largent, paul ryan on the house side, of all the people i met. those were the people i respected. who is this man that calls himself paul ryan now and sits in the speaker's chair? that's not the paul ryan i know. america is in danger and guess what? four or five percent tax cut on corporate tax rates is not worth it. heidi, after the chaos of the past 48 hours, the possibility their constituents could be in danger -- >> not to sound too harsh here, but this is where we are. we're at the finish line potentially for the grand payoff here for standing by donald trump through all of these controversies. if you go back to, for example, charlottesville, you can tick down the line of places where the gop leadership and members of the cabinet had that chance to come out definitively and

punish this behavior. there's been no consequences. just like any kind of reckless behavior, if you look at the reporting that we're now seeing out of the white house from prominent news organizations like the post and the times, his own advisers are saying that he feels emboldened to act with impunity because we haven't seen those consequences. to answer your question, it is that simple that we are at the cusp of getting the big payoff for the republican agenda, and you're not going to see anybody step out at this time and say anything. it's been an accumulation, like you said. and now the drum beat is just faster with all of these actions by the president which bring into question whether he does have the mental kind of capacity here to be making these decisions about north korea and to what extent the american public can trust when he says,

hey, don't worry about it, we have it under control. coming up on "morning joe," one of the democrat's leading voices on reform, congressman luis gutierrez is stepping down from congress. does he have sights on a bigger job? "morning joe" is coming right back. dad: molly, can you please take out the trash? (sigh) ( ♪ ) dad: molly! trash! ( ♪ ) whoo! ( ♪ )

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. joining us from capitol hill, democratic congressman luis gutierrez of illinois, recently announcing his intention to step down at the end of the current term. thank you for being on the show this morning. >> good to be with you, mika. thanks for having me on. >> what was behind the decision to step down and what is the next plan. >> three things, number one, jesus garcia, a champion, bernie sanders a lieutenant in that revolution ready to take the seat. his dad crossed that border 50 years ago and now his son is an american citizen. i hope to be a member of congress. i hope the vetters agree with me. send him to congress, what a

great counter -- point-counterpoint. trump and someone who can show the contributions of mexicans and mexican immigrants. number one. number two, my island of puerto rico calls for me. my heart bleeds for her every day i know going forward, the first six months of next year, my wife and i, my family, my daughters, we're going to be able to engage in politicsing the, not separated by 800 miles, sleeping and living in two different worlds. i'm looking forward to doing that. what i want to do is create a parallel structure so we can win? 2020 and defeat donald trump, and i want to create that structure in wisconsin, in ohio and pennsylvania and michigan. there are tens of thousands of

immigrants there that are permanent residents. i'd like to help them become citizens. i'd like to have civic engagement with them. and i want to coordinate. and at the same time, i think it's very important, look, think about it. i can keep pressure on my own party to make sure my party is true to its immigrant causes. >> susan. >> you just mentioned about working throughout different states. are you working with the national democratic party? are you signing on in that role officially? >> no. i think i have always seen myself as someone outside the official party. i'm a member of the democratic caucus, proud to be there with my colleagues. look, i've never held a title here, any title in the democratic caucus. i think my effectiveness is always working to improve the democratic party. >> do you think they need to up

debt their way of doing business? are you coming in as the one to upset the apple cart, if you will? >> no. i want to strengthen, i want to strengthen that apple cart. i want to use my ability, as all of you know, i've visited 100 cities in the last ten yoors. i have friends, there are fighters out there. i'm going to engage them in a conversation and what's the best way luis gutierrez can help defeat donald trump in 2020, and i don't want to do it here in congress, but i am going to make sure, look, here is a goal, until we take -- until donald trump is no longer the leader of the united states, we have a woman or man in the white house committed to immigration reform, my goll will never be accomplished. look, joe scarborough left congress. he didn't retire, did he? >> no, he didn't.

>> he didn't retire. neither am i. because you change your focus and your energy and priorities doesn't mean you're retiring and leaving behind -- i know there's a lot of sad people out there that want me to stay here. you humble me by your calls of sadness, but don't despair. i'm not going anywhere. i'm going to see you in your neighborhood very soon, in your city, in your county, in your village. i attend to come and visit with you and to organize with you so we can achieve the goal together. >> mike barnicle. >> congressman, you've been there for a quarter of a century, a lifetime in politics. prior to that you were an alderman in chicago which is like being in the world wrestling federation. so you're leaving, talking about your effectiveness and your goals. what's going to happen with daca before you leave? >> we're in a really good place. right after the break, the labor

day break, we came back -- many democrats have echoed this sentiment, if you want a budget, it has to reflect our deals, our goals, our aspirations. a deal without a dream act in it is not one i'll vote for. >> would you shut down the government in order to get daca done? >> here is the deal. there are 240 republicans. they need 218 votes. they run the house of representatives, i'm in the minority, in no position to shut the government down, but if they can't find enough votes to pass the budget, i'll sit down with republicans -- i think the grownups here, many republicans and democrats, women and men who are sensible, should all put

together a budget that's a reflection of american values. part of those values is to have a d.r.e.a.m. act, set those 800,000 young people aside and put a budget together. let's send it to the crazy man over at the white house, so he has nothing to do but to sign it. let people who are sane, prudent, responsibility, patriots here put together a budget for the american people. >> before you go, i'd like to ask you about congressman conyers and whether or not you think he should step down given everything that has been reported so far. >> number one, right decision to step down from his judiciary leadership position to be here given these allegations. the ethics committee is going to continue to investigate. i hope they do it quickly, swiftly, because that's what those women deserve. they deserve a swift, quick answer and conclusion to this.

i believe in a process here. i believe people are innocent until proven guilty. guess what? i also believe the women, and i think we need to get to this as quickly and as effectively as possible so we're showing respect for those voices that are rising across america. we need to be respectful. >> congressman luis gutierrez, thank you very, very much for being on the show this morning. >> thanks. good morning. still ahead, how a glitch at one major airline could cause havoc during the holidays. we're following new reporting that jared kushner has been questioned by bob muger's team. one person he was reportedly asked about, michael flynn. keep it right here on "morning joe."

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britain first is a hateful

organization. it seeks to spread division and mistrust among our communities. it stands in fundamental opposition to the values that we share as a nation, values of respect, tolerance, and dare i say, common british decency. the fact that we work together does not mean we're afraid to say when we think the united states have got it wrong, and to be very clear with them and i'm very clear, that retweeting from britain first was the wrong thing to do. >> gosh, i wish republicans could do that. it doesn't seem that hard, does it? >> all they would have to say is retweeting a fascist video is the wrong thing to do. >> how about sarah huckabee sanders? >> retweeting a fascist video that was very clearly edited to give false impressions wrong. >> moments ago, british prime minister theresa may doubling down on her written criticism of

president trump who circulated anti muslim videos to millions of his followers on twitter. she was speaking in jordan as part of a push to strengthen british alliances in the region. >> and here is another example, mika, of donald trump helping those that he attacks. this will help theresa may's standing in britain am hong the british people and help at a time where she needs help. her polls have been weak, not as weak as donald trump's by any stretch of the imagination, but still, this is something that, again, he once again -- like he helps "the new york times," like he helps the washington post and his political enemies, he's by attacking theresa may actually helping her. >> it's also frightening, though, that no one thinks there's anything wrong within

the white house, no one is expressing concern? >> i think there are many people who live with the idea, the fact that there's something wrong within the white house. the problem -- you've addressed this -- they are afraid to address it publicly. the republican party in the house and the senate are with a fever pitch trying to get this tax bill passed to show an accomplishme accomplishment, a tax bill that will change this country for a generation. that's one thing. but nobody seems to be standing up and saying to themselves or in public we have an obligation to history, an obligation to protect the institution of the presidency, what it means to the rest of the world. >> frankly, this one-year experiment does not work. three generals cannot keep this president in check, and that's what republicans said, especially for the first six months, oh, the generals will

make sure everything keeps running on time. you know what? stop. it doesn't work. it's time to speak out. this is an experiment gone awry and this is a white house that is out of control. >> i think of the senator -- republican senator that came on the show, i think it was cassidy, who said the president doesn't lie, he speaks in hyperbole. alex, am i correct? yes, bill cassidy. out can't be serious. >> is that what you say when your kids come home and lie to you about something? same thing with sarah huckabee sanders saying it doesn't matter where the tapes are lies or not. >> what country is this? >> whether he was retweeting fascist videos or not. >> i'm scared. >> it does matter that the tapes were frauds. it does matter that a fascist organization, a white supremacist organization was tweeting those out. that matters. if it doesn't matter to you inside the white house then you are morally corrupted and you need to go home.

it matters. it matters. the truth still matters. you can't tell us what the meaning of "is" is to fit your realities. the meaning of "is" is. here we have it again, except in hyper speed, hyper drive with another president, except this goes beyond all bounds of what we've ever endured before. this, as you said, one-year experiment, it's off the rails, the president is out of control. >> anybody that says that president doesn't lie and speaks in hyperbole is endangering, is fostering a president who is endangering our democracy. there's no question. >> and there's now reporting that actually you're enabling the president's worst instincts, because republicans, you haven't had the courage to stand up to

him except for a handful, ben sasse has been great. >> jeff flake, john mccain. >> john mccain has been a real hero. senator langford has been strong and i'm sure -- >> why is this so hard? >> lindsey at times comes out at times and speaks truth to power. quite a few more -- bob corker actually had the courage to say -- >> and that's about it. >> that he could start world war iii because he didn't appear to be mentally stable. but if the republicans speak out against this president, then this president will understand there are limits to what they will put up with, but they've been cowards all along. they've got to speak out, they just do. it's that simple. not only the republican party's future, the country's future depends on it. >> that's where we are right now. an estimated 15,000 american airlines flights don't have pilots next month after a nationwide scheduling glitch.

let's bring in cnbc's dominic chu. >> at least the glitch came during the time there's not a lot of travel. >> this is interesting because this is the peak travel time of the year for many people. that scheduling glitch has taken loads of pilots off the grid because they've been able to take vacation at the same time in december. the pilot's union estimates 15,000 flights in december don't have pilots assigned to fly them. american airlines says it's going to work hard to avoid any cancellations because of it including the use of reserve pilots and offering time and a half pay for pilots willing to work on those dates. american airlines pilots, if you're watching from a hotel, take note. >> looks like, dom, a lot of time and a half paid out over the christmas holidays. >> i'm actually off the week between christmas and new

year's. if my bosses came to me and said i'll give you time and a half or vacation and a half, i might take it. >> there you go. that's what they're going to have to do. cnbc's dominic chu, thank you very much. another report cooperating russia probe. we'll explain, next on "morning joe." [ mouse clicks, keyboard clacking ] [ mouse clicking ] [ keyboard clacking ] [ mouse clicking ] [ keyboard clacking ] ♪ good questions lead to good answers. our advisors can help you find both. talk to one today and see why we're bullish on the future. yours.

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michael flynn. the associated press reports that the interview happened earlier this month, took less than 90 minutes and was aimed at establishing whether kushner had any information that could clear the former national security adviser. the ap also reports that grand jury testimony related to flynn's business dealings that had been scheduled for the coming days has been postponed. the new developments only fuel speculation that flynn may be cooperating, especially after last week's news that his lawyer is no longer sharing information with the president's legal team. let's bring in "time" magazine's washington bureau chief, masimo calibrisi. >> thank you for being with us. >> good to be here. >> i remember 2004, asking a special ops guy from northwest florida, so how do we win in afghanistan? he said, well, if you give us 1 million troops and let us invade

pakistan, maybe we can make a dent. said, we're not going to do that, so we're never going to make progress in afghanistan. 13 years ago. you're exactly right, we're not frayed at the edges, we're ripped at the damn seams. talk about it. >> so that's our cover this week. it's a powerful story by our national security correspondent bill henigan who goes deep inside the new american way of war. over the course of the last 16 years, american projection of power has shifted to a reliance on u.s. special operations forces around the globe. the numbers of deployments are more than double, they're triple in some cases. the geographic dispersal of those forces is pretty much everywhere all the time. it's the middle east. it's south asia. it's the pacific. and especially now it's in africa as we saw with the botched niger intelligence

operation last month. this is -- this is a mission -- a global mission that most of us don't see and aren't aware of. sometimes because the missions are classified. but that has been an easy option for policymakers but that has increasingly carried costs both for the commandos but also the country strategically. it hasn't been discussed, it hasn't been looked at closely, and the cover story sets the table for the discussion about what we've come to rely on in our military forces overseas. >> so masimo, this special ops mission is extended, it's global, and it seems to me, i don't know how to phrase this exactly, but it seems to be weakening in terms of deployment of what specific kinds of troops are now called special ops. i'm referring specifically to the tragedy in niger when we lost four americans. and if you look at the m.o.s.,

the military occupation specialty of each of those people, they were not really special ops. >> it's really smart opener s observation. special forces trains people a year or two to have a specialized skill set. some get medical training. some go into animal husbandry if they're going into an area that has, you know, heavy livestocks. they're doing hearts and minds. they're basically less -- some are still, you know, kill or capture door kickers but a lot of them are essentially diplomats or nation builders. and they're all trained for combat missions, but they often find themselves on these train and assist missions outside the wire in the countries where they're deployed. and they can in a moment suddenly be amidst insurgents or terrorists or other hostile groups and find themselves having been trained for animal

husbandry but suddenly doing, you know, the combat work. it's a problem. they're stretched thin. the army is looking to create a nurse practitioner version of the special forces, lightly -- more heavily trained conventional forces that haven't gone through the full fort bragg treatment, so that they can expand the deployments of these forces without stretching the special ops themselves. >> susan. >> now we know we have a president that has abdicated command, and he's relinquished it to the generals. is there a sense that is actually hurting some of the operations without having some of that oversight that you would see from a white house? >> so oversight is crucial. abdication, a pretty strong word, but it is true the decision has pushed decision making down to not just general

also at special operations command but even to field commanders in terms of which operations to run and there are real risks in that. both because there's less accountability and oversight, as you say, but also because the generals and the leaders themselves are less politically accountable than the president and other political leaders. so you do have people talking about how that dispersal of power may make problems worse in that regard. >> you also have an interview with jeff flake in this issue as well. masimo, thank you very much for being on. next week, we'll bring you "time" magazine's pick for this year's person of the year. >> i think it's going to be mike barnacle. final thoughts? >> i think you're ahead of me in the balloting. >> no, no, no. >> final thoughts. final thoughts are not final thoughts because it's a constant quest for the national soul. who are we. >> susan. >> it's time to put an end to

this experiment. it's time for republicans to step up and say we need to have a change with our leadership. >> or at least step up to that leadership, mika, and say no more. we've had enough. if you want anything that you want to get through, you're going to have to stop abusing constitutional norms and also the norms that have really governed this country for over 200 years. >> we have much bigger problems. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. >> thanks so much, mika, thanks, joe. i like that mike barnacle, "time" person of the year. i'm stephanie ruhle with a lot to cover today. matt lauer releases a statement expressing sorrow and regret. this as more accusers come forward with disturbing allegations against the former "today" show host. and worldwide condemnation. the president retweets unverified anti-muslim videos from a fringe uk